Originally posted by gestalt11 The 170k number seemes like quite a jump but I am fairly certain Eve is still growing. All the data points in that direction.
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
A) They didnt go from 142k to 170k in one week. You show me official post by game devs a week apart where they say that then we will talk.
They are not waving 170k as promotional material because a lot of other games have more then that. So on a grand scale it is not really impressive. However having 30k people on the same server is.
You can say that 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 subscriptions is no evidence of a conspiracy. Then again, why can't they just give us the subscription number in a way that is unambiguous, and clear?
Better yet, don't talk about subscribers or subscriptions at all. If it doesn't matter, then there is no reason for them to keep throwing out numbers whether people ask them about it, or not.
Whereas you say that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to inflate subscription numbers, I would argue that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to not inflate subscription numbers. Its not like they are going to get in trouble with a distributor or a publisher for not being up front and honest about the product's viability. The only ones they need to deal with are the consumers, and frankly, consumers don't need to know the truth, since they are going to be paying money in any case, the only difference being how much money are they willing to pay beyond $20.
Even if its an unsatisfactory product that doesn't live up to the billing, a business model like CCP gets $20 worth of easy money. Get all 7 million of WoW's subscribers to pay the entry fee, and its $140 million dollars. Not bad for throwing out a few numbers, and a few spins around the fansite circuit. They don't even have to pay people like Battleclinic to make them money. You are glad to do it just for perhaps an exclusive interview, a "thank you" card, or a few gratis timecodes for your staff, which really don't cost a business model like CCP any more than what they'd otherwise be doing in any event.
Yet they do, and I think they make a big deal out of it to get a free, non-refundable $20 from as many people as they can. Its not like they actually have to go through retail, or pay for printing costs. The point is to get $20, and if people are willing to pay another $15 after that, its a bonus. If not, just keep saying whatever will get someone else to fork over $20. If saying, "we are growing at a fast rate, and have 170,000 subscribers currently" gets you $20 you wouldn't get otherwise, then say it. Nobody has any legal or financial obligation to know the truth, so there is no point in giving the truth, unless the truth happens to work.
If saying to the people, "we aren't in it for the money, we are here for the love" gets you $20 that you otherwise wouldn't get, why not say it? Its not like it matters once you get the $20. If saying to the long timers, "we are loyal to you just like you are loyal to us" gets them forking over more money, then say that. Its not like those words really have to matter once you decide to shut off the game. Its not like they have to put forth any overhead to get the product in the hands of the consumer. The very overhead that maintains the game also distributes the game.
When you have a business model like EVE is based upon, there is no real penalty for bending the truth. Its not like the boxes are going to end up in the clearence asile, and its not like the product is going to fail to move. There is no voice at the retail counter to steer consumers toward or away from the game. In short, there is no oversight, and no body with a vested interest to keep the provider honest. Information about the truth of what is going on with the game is whatever the provider says it is, and consumers have to take it upon faith that what they are saying is correct. Better still to get the consumers to overlook your mistakes, forgive your lies, and defend your failings.
Friends forgive friends after all, so it pays to give forth the impression that you are not a provider of an online service, but a friend, or "one of the guys." No need to act all stuffy and professional at E3, because there is no professional relationship between CCP and the subscribers. Open up a bar and have drinks like friends do, so that when you have to delay Kali, you can understand like friends do. Do a promotional stunt for your players showing that we are all one happy community sitting on the same couch talking about the alliance championships. Make it seem as if the people are more than $20 to you, so they won't care about their $20 initial, and $15 extra.
So then, why am I explaining all of this? Because there is no retailer that is going to know the truth. There is no fansite or player webpage that has any vested interest in giving me the truth. And seeing as how CCP gets my $20 initial whether they are telling me the truth or not, its not like they really care. If this sort of stuff keeps me away, then they'll simply cast their fishing nets for more $20 bills, until the pickings get slim, and then they'll just pack up the good ship, close down, and say, "you were all swell, thank you."
Because when it is all said and done, there is no difference between CCP and anyone else in this business, except for one thing. CCP is able to put forth the notion that they do not sell online games, but are partners in filling a spiritual void.
Its strange how EVE looks less like an online game, and more like a church, except the fundamental mysteries have changed from "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin," to, "how can 170,000 subscribers play on 142,000 subscriptions." People defend it like a church. They offer up their time and finances to evangelize without compensation. They defend it from blastphemy.
Personally though, I'll save my faith for eternal truths, not online services.
Originally posted by Pantastic EVE CURES CANCER, OTHER GAMES KICK YOU IN THE TESTICLES!
LMFAO
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Originally posted by gestalt11 The 170k number seemes like quite a jump but I am fairly certain Eve is still growing. All the data points in that direction.
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
subscriber=subscriptionfor almost every purpose. i dont even know if CCP has a way to tell how many accounts has a given person, since every account has a completely different username and password. form every point of viev, a different account= a different subscriber.
about the 142k and 170k, i think it is quite easy to understand. CCP is now a quite big company. as everybody know, not any worker on a company knows up to date information.
kieron is not any financial guru. he doesnt need to know the number of subscriptions up to the minute. when he said 142k it was probably because the last thing he knew was that number, and he didnt dare to guess how many more people was playing since that day.
then, a big boss has a interview on a magacine. it is only normal that right before going there he gets the last number of subscriptions.
anybody arguing about subscribers =/ subscriptions is a fool. anybody that has ever had a EVE account knows how difficult it would be for CCP to distinguis between one and the other.
Originally posted by Pantastic I think most people are just annoyed because the EVE nutballs have to make some announcement about EVE basically every day (look! 236 more logins than last time we posted a count! OMG! There's a magazine article about EVE, stop the press... well, start a thread!)
They started posting PCU counts when they reached 20K and now they're up to 30K. There have only been a number of PCU counts reported in between those two, I can remember one at 22K and one at 23K, and I think there was another at 25K but I can't be sure...
Either way, it's hardly every few hundred users like all the anti-fanboys are making it out to be. Every time there's a new PCU record, the anti-fanboys counter with 1 of 3 points:
1. WoW has X million subscribers - but not X million users on one server, it's like comparing apples to oranges.
2. EVE's world is empty so it's easy to do - the world you see is completely client-side. The server is nothing but a huge database. A game could have 5.5 billion trees in its world but that doesn't matter server-side. EVE juggles just as much database data (perhaps even more) than all the other MMORPGs.
3. CCP is such a whore for announcing PCU's ever few K players they get - first of all, they haven't released that many PCU reports at all, it's less than 10. Secondly, for a game that's 3 years old and still increasing in population, that's pretty darned good I'd say.
So before you anti-fanboys get all riled up because EVE threatened your e-penis, try to get your facts straight.
Originally posted by Homieslice 5 million subscribers WoW
Brag about it now, when Warhammer and AoC hit the shelves that game is going to be more barren than SWG. Everyone flocked to that game, not because it was awesome, because it was the only MMORPG out at the time, that was easy to get into. I know hundreds of players that are just sitting around waiting for a better game to release. EVE isn't a huge game like WoW is, because it isn't mass marketed in the U.S. I never even heard of the game till I was here in Germany. A lot of people I work with played it, and I got addicted. I cancelled WoW soon after. EVE may not be well recognized as WoW, but it is far more advanced, and has a lot more potential.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
I don't really play it, but I'm glad it's getting more and more popular by the day. It sets a precedent where an MMO can still prove to be successful even if it's not the biggest title when launched.
MMO is probably one of the only genres where a game can get more popular as it goes on.
Congrats EVE, and to all you haters, grow up.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
What I don't get is all the hatred. Sure it's annoying to see the PCU threads now and then but good lord.... conspiracy theories around a MMO that's announcing very low subscriber numbers (when you compare them to the likes of Lineage, Lineage 2, FFXI, Runescape, WoW)? C'mon now... if CCP wanted to bloat their numbers they'd throw in the 200,000 accounts on the China servers.
142,000 subscribers was over 2 months ago. 170,000 subscribers was 15-20 days ago. It's not like the 2 numbers were bandied about within a couple days of one another. I also really, honestly, could give a rip less if it's 150,000 players playing on 170,000 accounts. Who F'ing cares? It's 170,000 subscribers. When EQ hit 500,000 subscribers/subscriptions nobody threw out any conspiracy theories and that was SOE fer crying out loud.
When DAOC announced 250,000 subscribers it was a well known fact that many players had bot accounts (some people I know had as many as 7 or 8) but nobody whined about how many of it's "subcribers" were actually 1 person with multiple subscriptions. From a shareholder standpoint it doesn't MATTER how many PEOPLE hold those accounts. What matters is the number of accounts because the accounts, not the people, are what translates into income.
And I fail to see why the subscriber number even matters in a scenario when the thread brought up that 30,000 accounts were simultaneously logged into the game and playing. C'mon now... wtf does it matter? 30,000 concurrent users on the same shard is one heck of a landmark for MMORPG's in general. Personally I hope more and more MMORPG's go to a single sharded appraoch because it IS more fun when there are tens of thousands of other players online rather than just a couple hundred or even a couple thousand. Go play DAOC on a normal server in the PVE zones and you'll see what I mean. In EVE you never get "empty server syndrome" not like you do in DAOC or even EQ2 or SWG. There are always thousands, if not tens of thousands, of other players to interact with.
The game has very boring aspects. Travel being the biggest problem (imo) but carping about whether it's 170,000 players on 170,000 accounts or 150,000 players on 170,000 accounts is just plain and utter stupidity. Why do you care? If they're being paid for 170,000 accounts what does it matter who is paying for them?
As for the sudden growth? This isn't the first time.
When E&B was healthy both EVE and E&B had roughly 35k players.
when E&B was closed almost all it's players went to EVE. In a very short time EVE jumped from 37k players up to about 60k players. It sat there for a long time and slowly grew to about 70k players or so, if memory serves.
Then the CU hit SWG... a bunch of people left... interestingly enough in that timeframe EVE jumped from 70k or so players to right around 120k or so players. Oddly the number of people that left SWG as a result of the CU was supposedly right around 50k players (according to SOE).
EVE sat right around 120k players for a good chunk of time then NGE hit SWG.... a bunch of people left the game....a BUNCH... SOE won't even admit how many but according to figures SirBruce is getting the game went from right around 200k players all the way down to as low as 110k players (90,000 players)
Now EVE has jumped from 120-125k players up to 170,000 players.... Guess where all those players came from: The OTHER Sci-Fi, with space aspects, MMORPG that is also a sandbox: SWG. Just reading the SWG forums you'll see tons of threads about people who have moved to EVE. It's not hard to extrapolate that a LOT of players who left SWG wound up going to the only other true Sci-Fi Sandbox MMORPG when their Sandbox was filled in with concrete.
All that doesn't mean EVE is a great game. It just means that as other Sci Fi games are closing down or being ruined EVE is benefiting from the fallout because, while it's somewhat boring, it's the only real alternative for those players out there. I'm one of them. If SWG went back to Pre-NGE today I'd probably let my EVE account lapse and go back to SWG (ungh yeah even with SOE running the show). I'm sure many other players feel the same. While EVE is a 'decent' game it's not a "great" game. As many have said much of it's gameplay is very dry... That said: It's the only true sandbox left. And the only 'any kind' of sandbox left in the Sci-Fi genre.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Gameloading do we REALLY have to post everytime EVE gets a new player? there is an EVE section for this.
But who am I to ruin the mood?
Congratulations EVE for buying a very expensive server, and for creating a game that has minimum server traffic. your game is still only medicore though.
Oh, sorry, beta testing Archlord? Mediocre game. But who am I to ruin the mood?
For those wondering where the current jump may have came from (besides SOE unleashing the NGE), it's likely a direct result of their presence at Gencon Indy, where they launched the CCG, and the leipzig (sp?) convention. They have been plugging the game like crazy at these conferences and it appears that it's working.
Seriousily Beatnik, are you able to even leave your house? Since everybody is out to get you I could see how that would be difficult.
Originally posted by Elnator What I don't get is all the hatred. Sure it's annoying to see the PCU threads now and then but good lord....
The EVE fanboys don't post threads 'every now and then'. They post multiple threads per week with exciting 'news' about EVE, like that there was a magazine article about it, and interject EVE CURES CANCER comments into other threads constantly.
Travel being the biggest problem (imo) but carping about whether it's 170,000 players on 170,000 accounts or 150,000 players on 170,000 accounts is just plain and utter stupidity.
Really? So you're willing to conceede that EVE does not actually have 170,000 players, as most of the fanboys are parroting, and really just has 170,000 accounts? Or are you going to engage in plain and utter stupidity and argue about it?
Why do you care?
Because EVE fanboys are annoying and pretentious.
Originally posted by Urza123 A) They didnt go from 142k to 170k in one week. You show me official post by game devs a week apart where they say that then we will talk.
There have already been one dev post and one press release roughly a week apart, one showing 142k and one showing 170k. "Official post" is just a dodge, and talking about it.
They are not waving 170k as promotional material because a lot of other games have more then that.
Your logic is broken; 'Other games have more players' does not mean that '170k players' is not being used as promotional material.
Originally posted by Ranma13 So before you anti-fanboys get all riled up because EVE threatened your e-penis, try to get your facts straight.
Like the fact that EVE has 170,000 subscriptions, not 170,000 subscribers?
Originally posted by ssstupido subscriber=subscriptionfor almost every purpose. i dont even know if CCP has a way to tell how many accounts has a given person, since every account has a completely different username and password. form every point of viev, a different account= a different subscriber.
Nope, completely wrong. One subscriber is one player of the game, one subscription is one account in the game in the normal use of the terms. If there are 170k subscribers, you can safely say there are 170k players, but if there are 170k accounts then there are clearly fewer players.
It's interesting that a supposedly wonderful company like CCP doesn't actually say what it means by 'subscriber' or 'subscription' when bad 'ol Blizzard is completely upfront about what their numbers are counting.
anybody arguing about subscribers =/ subscriptions is a fool.
Anybody arguing that 170k accounts = 170k players is a fool and probably a gibbering fanboy.
anybody that has ever had a EVE account knows how difficult it would be for CCP to distinguis between one and the other.
That's irrelevant to whether or not they're different things.
Originally posted by Elnator What I don't get is all the hatred. Sure it's annoying to see the PCU threads now and then but good lord....
The EVE fanboys don't post threads 'every now and then'. They post multiple threads per week with exciting 'news' about EVE, like that there was a magazine article about it, and interject EVE CURES CANCER comments into other threads constantly.
so?
Travel being the biggest problem (imo) but carping about whether it's 170,000 players on 170,000 accounts or 150,000 players on 170,000 accounts is just plain and utter stupidity.
Really? So you're willing to conceede that EVE does not actually have 170,000 players, as most of the fanboys are parroting, and really just has 170,000 accounts? Or are you going to engage in plain and utter stupidity and argue about it?
again? it doesnt matter. we have no way to know how many players there are, only how many accounts. but that is the only thing that matter, even if those 170k subscriptions belonged to the same person. it wouldnt matter.
Why do you care?
Because EVE fanboys are annoying and pretentious.
oh, so its only jealousy. great. you are such a nice person.
Originally posted by Urza123 A) They didnt go from 142k to 170k in one week. You show me official post by game devs a week apart where they say that then we will talk.
There have already been one dev post and one press release roughly a week apart, one showing 142k and one showing 170k. "Official post" is just a dodge, and talking about it.
great, that only shows how fast is EVE growing
They are not waving 170k as promotional material because a lot of other games have more then that.
Your logic is broken; 'Other games have more players' does not mean that '170k players' is not being used as promotional material.
no, his logic is completly right. nobody uses mediocre numbers as a marketing campaign
Originally posted by Ranma13 So before you anti-fanboys get all riled up because EVE threatened your e-penis, try to get your facts straight.
Like the fact that EVE has 170,000 subscriptions, not 170,000 subscribers?
no, like the fact that it doesnt matter, and there is no way to differentiate one from another.
Originally posted by ssstupido subscriber=subscriptionfor almost every purpose. i dont even know if CCP has a way to tell how many accounts has a given person, since every account has a completely different username and password. form every point of viev, a different account= a different subscriber.
Nope, completely wrong. One subscriber is one player of the game, one subscription is one account in the game in the normal use of the terms. If there are 170k subscribers, you can safely say there are 170k players, but if there are 170k accounts then there are clearly fewer players.
every company uses "subscribers" to talk about "subscriptions". even magacines, papers, book companies... when Audi says that they have 3 million safisfied customers they are saying that they have sold 3 million cars, even when it may be possible that the same person bought more than 1 car.
i for example have 2 EVE accounts under my name and under the same credit card. yet they are completely different accounts and subscriptions. it would be unfair to say that they dont count as 2. and you know what? one account is for me and the other for my brother. so, from your limited and heteful point of view, CCP should count only 1 of my 2 subscriptions, yet the truth is that those 2 accounts equals 2 completely different players.
now, please, STFU and leave this thread, that in fact is not about susbscribers, but about concurrent users on the same shard.
It's interesting that a supposedly wonderful company like CCP doesn't actually say what it means by 'subscriber' or 'subscription' when bad 'ol Blizzard is completely upfront about what their numbers are counting.
nobody distinguishes between subscribers and subscriptions unless it is a special offer that can be tracked down. for example, the power of two offer that EVE had on Febrary, and has already finished. on that case it would have been very easy to tell that every power of 2 account was related to a regular account. still, nobody knows if the player of the power of 2 account is the same than the player of the regular account or not, like me, that i took a power of 2 account for my brother.
anybody arguing about subscribers =/ subscriptions is a fool.
Anybody arguing that 170k accounts = 170k players is a fool and probably a gibbering fanboy.
true, only you and beatnik are arguing that.
anybody that has ever had a EVE account knows how difficult it would be for CCP to distinguis between one and the other.
That's irrelevant to whether or not they're different things.
no its not irrelevant. CCP has no way of saying who is playing on each subscription. can you tell when one account logs in who is playing it?
Originally posted by Minsc For those wondering where the current jump may have came from (besides SOE unleashing the NGE), it's likely a direct result of their presence at Gencon Indy, where they launched the CCG, and the leipzig (sp?) convention. They have been plugging the game like crazy at these conferences and it appears that it's working.Seriousily Beatnik, are you able to even leave your house? Since everybody is out to get you I could see how that would be difficult.
Yeah i was at GenCon indy and EVE had more of a crowd than the Blizzard area which was allowing you to play their new expansion. The reason it draws a crowd and the reason it has so many fanboys and hateboys is because it is unique. I'm not going to argue that EVE is 100% original but you wont find a game remotely like it out there right now. It's definately not for everyone but credit is due to CCP for being a top notch game developer. Hell even their new CCG is a blast to play.
Originally posted by Pantastic I think most people are just annoyed because the EVE nutballs have to make some announcement about EVE basically every day (look! 236 more logins than last time we posted a count! OMG! There's a magazine article about EVE, stop the press... well, start a thread!)
They started posting PCU counts when they reached 20K and now they're up to 30K. There have only been a number of PCU counts reported in between those two, I can remember one at 22K and one at 23K, and I think there was another at 25K but I can't be sure...
Either way, it's hardly every few hundred users like all the anti-fanboys are making it out to be. Every time there's a new PCU record, the anti-fanboys counter with 1 of 3 points:
1. WoW has X million subscribers - but not X million users on one server, it's like comparing apples to oranges.
2. EVE's world is empty so it's easy to do - the world you see is completely client-side. The server is nothing but a huge database. A game could have 5.5 billion trees in its world but that doesn't matter server-side. EVE juggles just as much database data (perhaps even more) than all the other MMORPGs.
3. CCP is such a whore for announcing PCU's ever few K players they get - first of all, they haven't released that many PCU reports at all, it's less than 10. Secondly, for a game that's 3 years old and still increasing in population, that's pretty darned good I'd say.
So before you anti-fanboys get all riled up because EVE threatened your e-penis, try to get your facts straight.
First off all companies are whores.
As far as #2 is concerned, they actually have some pretty impressive stuff going on when you consider there market interface. The fact that Eve servers are, bar none, the largest MMO world servers to date combined with the fairly impresseive market querying and market histories they keep is a pretty substantial technical achievement. WoW's auction house is more impressive than people realize but the market system of Eve is even more impressive especially given the scope. It has lots more information and is at least at responsive over a larger population. Also when you consider the database of Escrow and player made missions you have even more server side stuff.
Whether you love or hate Eve its not really disputable that technically they are doing more with a server cluster on a larger scale than most any other MMO.
Those of you who are hating should reconsider and start cheering them on. You are playing MassivelyMOGs afterall. Eve is pioneering the Massive part. If other games follow then that is good for you even if you hate Eve.
Edit: oh and by the way Eve cures cancer, other games kick you in the testicles!!11!!!!
Originally posted by Minsc For those wondering where the current jump may have came from (besides SOE unleashing the NGE), it's likely a direct result of their presence at Gencon Indy, where they launched the CCG, and the leipzig (sp?) convention. They have been plugging the game like crazy at these conferences and it appears that it's working.
Seriousily Beatnik, are you able to even leave your house? Since everybody is out to get you I could see how that would be difficult.
There has been a noticable upturn in Eve advertising over the last six months. Very noticable, I have seen Eve ads when going to sites for Faqs for single player games.
Also there have been like 5 big game conventions in the last few months. But I kinda doubt that game covnentions are gonna really bring people in. The ads in mainstream outlets might though. Especially since those who have never heard of it probably see good reviews in vairous places.
There is no doubt that the gameplay of Eve can be downright boring for some(many?) people. But the fact is that Eve has some great design and some nice features. I often feel obligated to mention it or use it as an example in a post because it often directly refutes many tired old paradigms and the silly dogma of the hidebound MMO community. Or it is a game that has successfully done what people think has never been done or is not a workable idea.
So essentially Eve gets buzz even from people like me who are not fanboys. Combine that with advertising and the fact that it is akin to a cult hit movie and you can get rapid increases in subs. I have no diea if there have been and I really don't care past curiosity, but its possible.
Really MMOs are 80% buzz and hype. They are social creatures, they could completely mediocre both technically and design wise and still be vastly successful due to social reasons.
Originally posted by Copeland The reason it draws a crowd and the reason it has so many fanboys and hateboys is because it is unique.
That might be the reason it has so many fanboys, but I suspect the "hateboys" don't hate Eve at all, they just hate fanboys.
Speaking for myself, I find that reading all the deranged zealotry for why Eve is the only true gamers game etc, drives me to find fault in game I predominantly enjoyed. Similarly when the same or similar minded folk make great effort to show that WoW is utter pants and only played by lamers and is a failed game, I find myself liking the game even more than I did when I played it.
.
To the fellow arguing about whether it's 170,000 subscribers or 170,000 subscriptions......Get a grip. Either way it's a successful game.
I personally detest WoW but I don't run around saying that just because WoW has 7 million accounts doesn't mean it's 7 million players. I don't run around pointing out that it probably "only" has 5 million players using those 7 million accounts. Why? Because it's a stupid arguement with no point or basis in fact. There's no way for any company to know who plays on what account. Even if the accounts are paid for by the same credit card it could still be multiple people using them (in the same familly, which isn't as uncommon as people like to believe).
At one point I held 3 active accounts for EQ1... me, my brother, and my wife.... At one point I had 2 for SWG... one for me... one for my wife..... I may eventually have 2 for some other game. Just because I hold 2 accounts doesn't mean that only 1 person is playing. So how would a company know who's physically playing an account? There's no way for them to, short of putting a webcam on your desk that shows who's sitting at the keyboard.
All a company can report *honestly* is: We have X number of subscribers Subscribers is defined as: Paid accounts.
They don't know how many people that represents, they just know how much income that represents.
Beatnik is splitting hairs, as he always does. It's a stupid and pointless arguement. And I haven't seen ANYONE try to say that 170,000 accounts is equal to 170,000 players. (Though the number would be close to accurate no matter how you slice it).
Bottom line: This thread isn't about how many physical people are sitting at a physical PC banging away at the game. The thread is about the fact that 30,000+ accounts are logged into the game simultaneously, all on the same shard, referencing the same database. No other MMO can say that. Period.
While there are LOTS of things I find fault with in EVE the technical accomplishment that 30k concurrent players on a single shard represents is still pretty impressive.
And, contrary to a prior poster: It's NOT something that's easy to do.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Grats to EVE I guess. I didn't care for it too much, but I'm not a hater. Just wasn't my thing really. But it is one of the few games that actually has a few original ideas.
baff, people only truely hate these games because they are popular. Most of them think it gives them credibility by slamming WOW or EVE doing well. Some do hate these games, but most are posers. The sad news for the WOW hatebois is the game is so huge that they'll see it's influence for many years and many games to come. Even the games "trying" not to be WOW clones feel like it a little bit now.
What is the attempt of the post any way then? To get more players?
Shees, Nice it can hold 30,000 on one shard. But if your attempt to show that as popular is in error.
Amount on one server doesn't make the game popular, amount in total is the end result.
DDO has more players than this game and this game got a MAX Vote here at MMORPG.com
Obviously this place is second home to EvE, WoW and GW fans.
Not everyone wants to play EvE. Not even 10% of the MMO communty. Otherwise it would be higher on the mmogchart. That my friend is the REAL voters results. Not some abused game list rating that they have here. I am sure if you really wanted your game to shine on that list I wouldn't put it past most of the kids here to create 50 accounts just to give their favorite game all 10's.
EvE is a POS and everyone knows it so stop coming here and trying to make it seem like it is such a great game. Your only fooling yourself!!!
Originally posted by fizzle322 Eve isn't the best mmorpg.
It's the ONLY mmorpg.
If you can't affect the gameworld and its population, its not an mmorpg.
The Sims Online has more credibility as an mmorpg than WoW and Guildwars. The fact that its for girls is irrelevant.
At least they had the balls to do something other than make one more EQ clone.
So by this theroy, my interactive screensaver is MMORPG because I can change the background color. Which I find ironic since EVE is essentally an interactive screensaver.
Originally posted by grinreaper Originally posted by fizzle322 Eve isn't the best mmorpg.
It's the ONLY mmorpg.
If you can't affect the gameworld and its population, its not an mmorpg.
The Sims Online has more credibility as an mmorpg than WoW and Guildwars. The fact that its for girls is irrelevant.
At least they had the balls to do something other than make one more EQ clone.
So by this theroy, my interactive screensaver is MMORPG because I can change the background color. Which I find ironic since EVE is essentally an interactive screensaver.
Does your screensaver affect others? Does it provide a persistant world in which thousands of people can interact, wage war, play the markets, mine, hunt, control territory/resources, etc? If so thats one hell of a screensaver, can you post a link to it :P
Comments
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
A) They didnt go from 142k to 170k in one week. You show me official post by game devs a week apart where they say that then we will talk.
You can say that 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 subscriptions is no evidence of a conspiracy. Then again, why can't they just give us the subscription number in a way that is unambiguous, and clear?
Better yet, don't talk about subscribers or subscriptions at all. If it doesn't matter, then there is no reason for them to keep throwing out numbers whether people ask them about it, or not.
Whereas you say that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to inflate subscription numbers, I would argue that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to not inflate subscription numbers. Its not like they are going to get in trouble with a distributor or a publisher for not being up front and honest about the product's viability. The only ones they need to deal with are the consumers, and frankly, consumers don't need to know the truth, since they are going to be paying money in any case, the only difference being how much money are they willing to pay beyond $20.
Even if its an unsatisfactory product that doesn't live up to the billing, a business model like CCP gets $20 worth of easy money. Get all 7 million of WoW's subscribers to pay the entry fee, and its $140 million dollars. Not bad for throwing out a few numbers, and a few spins around the fansite circuit. They don't even have to pay people like Battleclinic to make them money. You are glad to do it just for perhaps an exclusive interview, a "thank you" card, or a few gratis timecodes for your staff, which really don't cost a business model like CCP any more than what they'd otherwise be doing in any event.
Yet they do, and I think they make a big deal out of it to get a free, non-refundable $20 from as many people as they can. Its not like they actually have to go through retail, or pay for printing costs. The point is to get $20, and if people are willing to pay another $15 after that, its a bonus. If not, just keep saying whatever will get someone else to fork over $20. If saying, "we are growing at a fast rate, and have 170,000 subscribers currently" gets you $20 you wouldn't get otherwise, then say it. Nobody has any legal or financial obligation to know the truth, so there is no point in giving the truth, unless the truth happens to work.
If saying to the people, "we aren't in it for the money, we are here for the love" gets you $20 that you otherwise wouldn't get, why not say it? Its not like it matters once you get the $20. If saying to the long timers, "we are loyal to you just like you are loyal to us" gets them forking over more money, then say that. Its not like those words really have to matter once you decide to shut off the game. Its not like they have to put forth any overhead to get the product in the hands of the consumer. The very overhead that maintains the game also distributes the game.
When you have a business model like EVE is based upon, there is no real penalty for bending the truth. Its not like the boxes are going to end up in the clearence asile, and its not like the product is going to fail to move. There is no voice at the retail counter to steer consumers toward or away from the game. In short, there is no oversight, and no body with a vested interest to keep the provider honest. Information about the truth of what is going on with the game is whatever the provider says it is, and consumers have to take it upon faith that what they are saying is correct. Better still to get the consumers to overlook your mistakes, forgive your lies, and defend your failings.
Friends forgive friends after all, so it pays to give forth the impression that you are not a provider of an online service, but a friend, or "one of the guys." No need to act all stuffy and professional at E3, because there is no professional relationship between CCP and the subscribers. Open up a bar and have drinks like friends do, so that when you have to delay Kali, you can understand like friends do. Do a promotional stunt for your players showing that we are all one happy community sitting on the same couch talking about the alliance championships. Make it seem as if the people are more than $20 to you, so they won't care about their $20 initial, and $15 extra.
So then, why am I explaining all of this? Because there is no retailer that is going to know the truth. There is no fansite or player webpage that has any vested interest in giving me the truth. And seeing as how CCP gets my $20 initial whether they are telling me the truth or not, its not like they really care. If this sort of stuff keeps me away, then they'll simply cast their fishing nets for more $20 bills, until the pickings get slim, and then they'll just pack up the good ship, close down, and say, "you were all swell, thank you."
Because when it is all said and done, there is no difference between CCP and anyone else in this business, except for one thing. CCP is able to put forth the notion that they do not sell online games, but are partners in filling a spiritual void.
Its strange how EVE looks less like an online game, and more like a church, except the fundamental mysteries have changed from "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin," to, "how can 170,000 subscribers play on 142,000 subscriptions." People defend it like a church. They offer up their time and finances to evangelize without compensation. They defend it from blastphemy.
Personally though, I'll save my faith for eternal truths, not online services.
Amen brother!
probably just a WoW fan, just need to show off
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
subscriber=subscriptionfor almost every purpose. i dont even know if CCP has a way to tell how many accounts has a given person, since every account has a completely different username and password. form every point of viev, a different account= a different subscriber.
about the 142k and 170k, i think it is quite easy to understand. CCP is now a quite big company. as everybody know, not any worker on a company knows up to date information.
kieron is not any financial guru. he doesnt need to know the number of subscriptions up to the minute. when he said 142k it was probably because the last thing he knew was that number, and he didnt dare to guess how many more people was playing since that day.
then, a big boss has a interview on a magacine. it is only normal that right before going there he gets the last number of subscriptions.
anybody arguing about subscribers =/ subscriptions is a fool. anybody that has ever had a EVE account knows how difficult it would be for CCP to distinguis between one and the other.
Either way, it's hardly every few hundred users like all the anti-fanboys are making it out to be. Every time there's a new PCU record, the anti-fanboys counter with 1 of 3 points:
1. WoW has X million subscribers - but not X million users on one server, it's like comparing apples to oranges.
2. EVE's world is empty so it's easy to do - the world you see is completely client-side. The server is nothing but a huge database. A game could have 5.5 billion trees in its world but that doesn't matter server-side. EVE juggles just as much database data (perhaps even more) than all the other MMORPGs.
3. CCP is such a whore for announcing PCU's ever few K players they get - first of all, they haven't released that many PCU reports at all, it's less than 10. Secondly, for a game that's 3 years old and still increasing in population, that's pretty darned good I'd say.
So before you anti-fanboys get all riled up because EVE threatened your e-penis, try to get your facts straight.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
Eve is "the little MMO that could".
I don't really play it, but I'm glad it's getting more and more popular by the day. It sets a precedent where an MMO can still prove to be successful even if it's not the biggest title when launched.
MMO is probably one of the only genres where a game can get more popular as it goes on.
Congrats EVE, and to all you haters, grow up.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
What I don't get is all the hatred. Sure it's annoying to see the PCU threads now and then but good lord.... conspiracy theories around a MMO that's announcing very low subscriber numbers (when you compare them to the likes of Lineage, Lineage 2, FFXI, Runescape, WoW)? C'mon now... if CCP wanted to bloat their numbers they'd throw in the 200,000 accounts on the China servers.
142,000 subscribers was over 2 months ago. 170,000 subscribers was 15-20 days ago. It's not like the 2 numbers were bandied about within a couple days of one another. I also really, honestly, could give a rip less if it's 150,000 players playing on 170,000 accounts. Who F'ing cares? It's 170,000 subscribers. When EQ hit 500,000 subscribers/subscriptions nobody threw out any conspiracy theories and that was SOE fer crying out loud.
When DAOC announced 250,000 subscribers it was a well known fact that many players had bot accounts (some people I know had as many as 7 or 8) but nobody whined about how many of it's "subcribers" were actually 1 person with multiple subscriptions. From a shareholder standpoint it doesn't MATTER how many PEOPLE hold those accounts. What matters is the number of accounts because the accounts, not the people, are what translates into income.
And I fail to see why the subscriber number even matters in a scenario when the thread brought up that 30,000 accounts were simultaneously logged into the game and playing. C'mon now... wtf does it matter? 30,000 concurrent users on the same shard is one heck of a landmark for MMORPG's in general. Personally I hope more and more MMORPG's go to a single sharded appraoch because it IS more fun when there are tens of thousands of other players online rather than just a couple hundred or even a couple thousand. Go play DAOC on a normal server in the PVE zones and you'll see what I mean. In EVE you never get "empty server syndrome" not like you do in DAOC or even EQ2 or SWG. There are always thousands, if not tens of thousands, of other players to interact with.
The game has very boring aspects. Travel being the biggest problem (imo) but carping about whether it's 170,000 players on 170,000 accounts or 150,000 players on 170,000 accounts is just plain and utter stupidity. Why do you care? If they're being paid for 170,000 accounts what does it matter who is paying for them?
As for the sudden growth? This isn't the first time.
- When E&B was healthy both EVE and E&B had roughly 35k players.
- when E&B was closed almost all it's players went to EVE. In a very short time EVE jumped from 37k players up to about 60k players. It sat there for a long time and slowly grew to about 70k players or so, if memory serves.
- Then the CU hit SWG... a bunch of people left... interestingly enough in that timeframe EVE jumped from 70k or so players to right around 120k or so players. Oddly the number of people that left SWG as a result of the CU was supposedly right around 50k players (according to SOE).
- EVE sat right around 120k players for a good chunk of time then NGE hit SWG.... a bunch of people left the game....a BUNCH... SOE won't even admit how many but according to figures SirBruce is getting the game went from right around 200k players all the way down to as low as 110k players (90,000 players)
- Now EVE has jumped from 120-125k players up to 170,000 players.... Guess where all those players came from: The OTHER Sci-Fi, with space aspects, MMORPG that is also a sandbox: SWG. Just reading the SWG forums you'll see tons of threads about people who have moved to EVE. It's not hard to extrapolate that a LOT of players who left SWG wound up going to the only other true Sci-Fi Sandbox MMORPG when their Sandbox was filled in with concrete.
All that doesn't mean EVE is a great game. It just means that as other Sci Fi games are closing down or being ruined EVE is benefiting from the fallout because, while it's somewhat boring, it's the only real alternative for those players out there. I'm one of them. If SWG went back to Pre-NGE today I'd probably let my EVE account lapse and go back to SWG (ungh yeah even with SOE running the show). I'm sure many other players feel the same. While EVE is a 'decent' game it's not a "great" game. As many have said much of it's gameplay is very dry... That said: It's the only true sandbox left. And the only 'any kind' of sandbox left in the Sci-Fi genre.Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
For those wondering where the current jump may have came from (besides SOE unleashing the NGE), it's likely a direct result of their presence at Gencon Indy, where they launched the CCG, and the leipzig (sp?) convention. They have been plugging the game like crazy at these conferences and it appears that it's working.
Seriousily Beatnik, are you able to even leave your house? Since everybody is out to get you I could see how that would be difficult.
The EVE fanboys don't post threads 'every now and then'. They post multiple threads per week with exciting 'news' about EVE, like that there was a magazine article about it, and interject EVE CURES CANCER comments into other threads constantly.
Really? So you're willing to conceede that EVE does not actually have 170,000 players, as most of the fanboys are parroting, and really just has 170,000 accounts? Or are you going to engage in plain and utter stupidity and argue about it?
Because EVE fanboys are annoying and pretentious.
There have already been one dev post and one press release roughly a week apart, one showing 142k and one showing 170k. "Official post" is just a dodge, and talking about it.
Your logic is broken; 'Other games have more players' does not mean that '170k players' is not being used as promotional material.
Like the fact that EVE has 170,000 subscriptions, not 170,000 subscribers?
Nope, completely wrong. One subscriber is one player of the game, one subscription is one account in the game in the normal use of the terms. If there are 170k subscribers, you can safely say there are 170k players, but if there are 170k accounts then there are clearly fewer players.
It's interesting that a supposedly wonderful company like CCP doesn't actually say what it means by 'subscriber' or 'subscription' when bad 'ol Blizzard is completely upfront about what their numbers are counting.
Anybody arguing that 170k accounts = 170k players is a fool and probably a gibbering fanboy.
That's irrelevant to whether or not they're different things.
The EVE fanboys don't post threads 'every now and then'. They post multiple threads per week with exciting 'news' about EVE, like that there was a magazine article about it, and interject EVE CURES CANCER comments into other threads constantly.
so?
Really? So you're willing to conceede that EVE does not actually have 170,000 players, as most of the fanboys are parroting, and really just has 170,000 accounts? Or are you going to engage in plain and utter stupidity and argue about it?
again? it doesnt matter. we have no way to know how many players there are, only how many accounts. but that is the only thing that matter, even if those 170k subscriptions belonged to the same person. it wouldnt matter.
Because EVE fanboys are annoying and pretentious.
oh, so its only jealousy. great. you are such a nice person.
There have already been one dev post and one press release roughly a week apart, one showing 142k and one showing 170k. "Official post" is just a dodge, and talking about it.
great, that only shows how fast is EVE growing
Your logic is broken; 'Other games have more players' does not mean that '170k players' is not being used as promotional material.
no, his logic is completly right. nobody uses mediocre numbers as a marketing campaign
Like the fact that EVE has 170,000 subscriptions, not 170,000 subscribers?
no, like the fact that it doesnt matter, and there is no way to differentiate one from another.
Nope, completely wrong. One subscriber is one player of the game, one subscription is one account in the game in the normal use of the terms. If there are 170k subscribers, you can safely say there are 170k players, but if there are 170k accounts then there are clearly fewer players.
every company uses "subscribers" to talk about "subscriptions". even magacines, papers, book companies... when Audi says that they have 3 million safisfied customers they are saying that they have sold 3 million cars, even when it may be possible that the same person bought more than 1 car.
i for example have 2 EVE accounts under my name and under the same credit card. yet they are completely different accounts and subscriptions. it would be unfair to say that they dont count as 2. and you know what? one account is for me and the other for my brother. so, from your limited and heteful point of view, CCP should count only 1 of my 2 subscriptions, yet the truth is that those 2 accounts equals 2 completely different players.
now, please, STFU and leave this thread, that in fact is not about susbscribers, but about concurrent users on the same shard.
It's interesting that a supposedly wonderful company like CCP doesn't actually say what it means by 'subscriber' or 'subscription' when bad 'ol Blizzard is completely upfront about what their numbers are counting.
nobody distinguishes between subscribers and subscriptions unless it is a special offer that can be tracked down. for example, the power of two offer that EVE had on Febrary, and has already finished. on that case it would have been very easy to tell that every power of 2 account was related to a regular account. still, nobody knows if the player of the power of 2 account is the same than the player of the regular account or not, like me, that i took a power of 2 account for my brother.
Anybody arguing that 170k accounts = 170k players is a fool and probably a gibbering fanboy.
true, only you and beatnik are arguing that.
That's irrelevant to whether or not they're different things.
no its not irrelevant. CCP has no way of saying who is playing on each subscription. can you tell when one account logs in who is playing it?
Yeah i was at GenCon indy and EVE had more of a crowd than the Blizzard area which was allowing you to play their new expansion. The reason it draws a crowd and the reason it has so many fanboys and hateboys is because it is unique. I'm not going to argue that EVE is 100% original but you wont find a game remotely like it out there right now. It's definately not for everyone but credit is due to CCP for being a top notch game developer. Hell even their new CCG is a blast to play.
Make a difference!
As far as #2 is concerned, they actually have some pretty impressive stuff going on when you consider there market interface. The fact that Eve servers are, bar none, the largest MMO world servers to date combined with the fairly impresseive market querying and market histories they keep is a pretty substantial technical achievement. WoW's auction house is more impressive than people realize but the market system of Eve is even more impressive especially given the scope. It has lots more information and is at least at responsive over a larger population. Also when you consider the database of Escrow and player made missions you have even more server side stuff.
Whether you love or hate Eve its not really disputable that technically they are doing more with a server cluster on a larger scale than most any other MMO.
Those of you who are hating should reconsider and start cheering them on. You are playing MassivelyMOGs afterall. Eve is pioneering the Massive part. If other games follow then that is good for you even if you hate Eve.
Edit: oh and by the way Eve cures cancer, other games kick you in the testicles!!11!!!!
Also there have been like 5 big game conventions in the last few months. But I kinda doubt that game covnentions are gonna really bring people in. The ads in mainstream outlets might though. Especially since those who have never heard of it probably see good reviews in vairous places.
There is no doubt that the gameplay of Eve can be downright boring for some(many?) people. But the fact is that Eve has some great design and some nice features. I often feel obligated to mention it or use it as an example in a post because it often directly refutes many tired old paradigms and the silly dogma of the hidebound MMO community. Or it is a game that has successfully done what people think has never been done or is not a workable idea.
So essentially Eve gets buzz even from people like me who are not fanboys. Combine that with advertising and the fact that it is akin to a cult hit movie and you can get rapid increases in subs. I have no diea if there have been and I really don't care past curiosity, but its possible.
Really MMOs are 80% buzz and hype. They are social creatures, they could completely mediocre both technically and design wise and still be vastly successful due to social reasons.
That might be the reason it has so many fanboys, but I suspect the "hateboys" don't hate Eve at all, they just hate fanboys.
Speaking for myself, I find that reading all the deranged zealotry for why Eve is the only true gamers game etc, drives me to find fault in game I predominantly enjoyed. Similarly when the same or similar minded folk make great effort to show that WoW is utter pants and only played by lamers and is a failed game, I find myself liking the game even more than I did when I played it.
.
To the fellow arguing about whether it's 170,000 subscribers or 170,000 subscriptions......Get a grip. Either way it's a successful game.
At one point I held 3 active accounts for EQ1... me, my brother, and my wife.... At one point I had 2 for SWG... one for me... one for my wife..... I may eventually have 2 for some other game. Just because I hold 2 accounts doesn't mean that only 1 person is playing. So how would a company know who's physically playing an account? There's no way for them to, short of putting a webcam on your desk that shows who's sitting at the keyboard.
All a company can report *honestly* is: We have X number of subscribers
Subscribers is defined as: Paid accounts.
They don't know how many people that represents, they just know how much income that represents.
Beatnik is splitting hairs, as he always does. It's a stupid and pointless arguement. And I haven't seen ANYONE try to say that 170,000 accounts is equal to 170,000 players. (Though the number would be close to accurate no matter how you slice it).
Bottom line: This thread isn't about how many physical people are sitting at a physical PC banging away at the game. The thread is about the fact that 30,000+ accounts are logged into the game simultaneously, all on the same shard, referencing the same database. No other MMO can say that. Period.
While there are LOTS of things I find fault with in EVE the technical accomplishment that 30k concurrent players on a single shard represents is still pretty impressive.
And, contrary to a prior poster: It's NOT something that's easy to do.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Grats to EVE I guess. I didn't care for it too much, but I'm not a hater. Just wasn't my thing really. But it is one of the few games that actually has a few original ideas.
baff, people only truely hate these games because they are popular. Most of them think it gives them credibility by slamming WOW or EVE doing well. Some do hate these games, but most are posers. The sad news for the WOW hatebois is the game is so huge that they'll see it's influence for many years and many games to come. Even the games "trying" not to be WOW clones feel like it a little bit now.
Honestly. Who cares?
Obvoiously only Eve players do.
What is the attempt of the post any way then? To get more players?
Shees, Nice it can hold 30,000 on one shard. But if your attempt to show that as popular is in error.
Amount on one server doesn't make the game popular, amount in total is the end result.
DDO has more players than this game and this game got a MAX Vote here at MMORPG.com
Obviously this place is second home to EvE, WoW and GW fans.
Not everyone wants to play EvE. Not even 10% of the MMO communty. Otherwise it would be higher on the mmogchart. That my friend is the REAL voters results. Not some abused game list rating that they have here. I am sure if you really wanted your game to shine on that list I wouldn't put it past most of the kids here to create 50 accounts just to give their favorite game all 10's.
EvE is a POS and everyone knows it so stop coming here and trying to make it seem like it is such a great game. Your only fooling yourself!!!
Eve isn't the best mmorpg.
It's the ONLY mmorpg.
If you can't affect the gameworld and its population, its not an mmorpg.
The Sims Online has more credibility as an mmorpg than WoW and Guildwars. The fact that its for girls is irrelevant.
At least they had the balls to do something other than make one more EQ clone.
Does your screensaver affect others? Does it provide a persistant world in which thousands of people can interact, wage war, play the markets, mine, hunt, control territory/resources, etc? If so thats one hell of a screensaver, can you post a link to it :P