Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
simple yet unbelievably logical point regarding creation
Nihilanth
Member Posts: 1,357
Over the past couple days in my AP English Language class we've been doing in-class debates over hot topics such as abortion, capital punishment, and things like that. Tomorrow we're going to be arguing whether or not intelligent design should be taught in the classroom. I'm not going to go into what my personal opinion is about that topic because that's not the purpose of this thread. However, I was talking to my friend earlier today who's also in my english class (he's a very devout Jew, but still does not believe religion or any form of it has any place in school, including intelligent design). We got into the topic of religion in preparation for tomorrow's class, and he gave me one of the best and least refutable points I've ever heard about the whole topic. This is it:
The main idea behind intelligent design is that life is far too complex to have started without some sort of higher power guiding it. Where, then, did the higher power come from? Must it not be infinitely more complex than even life itself? If so, then does it too not need a creator? One would of course argue that no, it does not. "God" as a being or a power has been there since the beginning of time. If this is true, and this absolute power (God) can manifest itself from nothing, then why can't a universe? Why must "God" manifest itself first, and then create the universe? Why can't the universe itself spring forth from nothing?
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
Comments
Physical law says Energy cannot be created or destroyed... (Matter is a form of energy) But God isn't hindered by the physical which is why he would be able to create when there is nothing to create from....
If science accepts that the universe just popped up from nothing one day then Scientific laws mean nothing if nature can just break them when ever it wanted to... a theory would then fail the predictive part and Science would collapse... Thats actually what happens when mathmaticians try to model the beginning of the universe... The Laws of physics and mathematics just go haywire..
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Je mettrai l'amour sur dos de moi.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
Why is it that there ever has to have been a time when the universe didn't exist? I don't understand that arguement...
Also, Kimo, I thought the Big Bang was just how the Earth was supposedly formed, or something?
Bah, I don't pay attention to creation. What matters is that we're here.
2. The big bang is a theory explaining how the entire universe was created I do believe (I've bever actually looked into it before)
3. Thast true, but it is still fun to debate, heh
Je mettrai l'amour sur dos de moi.
Physical law says Energy cannot be created or destroyed... (Matter is a form of energy) But God isn't hindered by the physical which is why he would be able to create when there is nothing to create from....
If science accepts that the universe just popped up from nothing one day then Scientific laws mean nothing if nature can just break them when ever it wanted to... a theory would then fail the predictive part and Science would collapse... Thats actually what happens when mathmaticians try to model the beginning of the universe... The Laws of physics and mathematics just go haywire..
So in other words, God is a cop out creator because we lack the mental capacity to comprehend the creation of the universe?
https://easynulled.com/
Free porn videos, xxx porn videos
Onlyfans nudes
Onlyfans leaked
About "creating", let suppose that the law saying nothing can be created from nothing is right. Then maybe the total value of the universe is still 0, maybe some stuff is on the positive side, some other on the negative. When there is nothing it is a plain zero, but if you have -4 and +4, you still have a sums that is 0.
"God" by been above, can manipulate these numbers to have - infinity and + infinity if he wants, which still sums to 0.
Peoples than may have theories about matters and anti-matters, and maybe some disfunctions theorically breaking that harmorny so a side is deficient...and you then have the basics of quite many sci-fi novels.
This is like the debate between the chicken and the egg, which come first. Did the first chicken to come out emerge from an egg or was it the result of a mutation/evolution on another lifeform that never come from an egg? Odds are that a non-chicken lay a chicken egg, but that non-chicken was close to a chicken, and got a mutan children that become the first chicken...or that mutan by mating with non-chicken create the first chicken...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
But the universe DIDNT always exist.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_age.html
Nasa analyzed the facts down to a 1% margain of error. Its about 13.7 billion years old.
Creation happened.
Thanks to nasa and Wernher von Braun helping us get to space we figured a lot out.
Space travel is so badass.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
While I don't doubt that their was some serious thought put into this, it doesn't mention how they came to this conclusion.
EDIT: Nevermind I found it. That is seriously crazy what they can do now.
But at the same time, if this is correct then the big bang theory would have to also be correct.
Physical law says Energy cannot be created or destroyed... In normal chemical reactions, but matter is destroyed in nuclear reactions. (Matter is a form of energy) But God isn't hindered by the physical which is why he would be able to create when there is nothing to create from.... You can creat something from nothing, it only takes a large amount of energy and magnetic fields. Look up anti-matter if you don't believe me.
If science accepts that the universe just popped up from nothing one day then Scientific laws mean nothing if nature can just break them when ever it wanted to...There are exceptions to every rule. a theory would then fail the predictive part and Science would collapse... Thats actually what happens when mathmaticians try to model the beginning of the universe... The Laws of physics and mathematics just go haywire.. We have yet to determine all of the laws of physics and mathematics.
But the universe DIDNT always exist.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_age.html
Nasa analyzed the facts down to a 1% margain of error. Its about 13.7 billion years old.
Creation happened.
Thanks to nasa and Wernher von Braun helping us get to space we figured a lot out.
Space travel is so badass.
I'm confused as to how they got that, they have no explanation of it at all.
One "simple" explanation to Big Bang would be that the dot that exploded came from some other reality/dimension/whatever.
But the universe DIDNT always exist.
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_mm/mr_age.html
Nasa analyzed the facts down to a 1% margain of error. Its about 13.7 billion years old.
Creation happened.
Thanks to nasa and Wernher von Braun helping us get to space we figured a lot out.
Space travel is so badass.
I'm confused as to how they got that, they have no explanation of it at all.
That would make you the only person so far to miss it.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
What if you find a watch in the sand?
Suppose you find a watch in the middle of a desert. What would you conclude?
Would you think that someone dropped the watch? Or would you suppose that the
watch came by itself?
Of course no sane person would say that the watch just happened to emerge from
the sand. All the intricate working parts could not simply develop from the
metals the lay buried in the earth. The watch must have a manufacturer.
If a watch tells accurate time we expect the manufacturer must be intelligent.
Blind chance cannot produce a working watch.
But what else tells accurate time? Consider the sunrise and sunset. Their
timings are so strictly regulated that scientists can publish in advance the
sunrise and sunset times in your daily newspapers. But who regulates the timings
of sunrise and sunset? If a watch can not work without an intelligent maker, how
can the sun appear to rise and set with such clockwork regularity? Could this
occur by itself?
Consider also that we benefit from the sun only because it remains at a safe
distance from the earth, a distance that averages 93 million miles. If it got
much closer the earth would burn up. And if it got too far away the earth would
turn into an icy planet making human life here impossible. Who decided in
advance that this was the right distance? Could it just happen by chance?
Without the sun plants would not grow. Then animals and humans would starve. Did
the sun just decide to be there for us?
The rays of the sun would be dangerous for us had it not been for the protective
ozone layer in our atmosphere. The atmosphere around earth keeps the harmful
ultraviolet rays from reaching us. Who was it that placed this shield around us?
We need to experience sunrise. We need the sun's energy and it's light to see
our way during the day. But we also need sunset. We need a break from the heat,
we need the cook of night and we need the lights to out so we may sleep. Who
regulated this process to provide what we need?
Moreover, if we had only the sun and the protection of the atmosphere we would
want something more-beauty. Our clothes provide warmth and protection, yet we
design them to also look beautiful. Knowing or need for beauty, the designer of
sunrise and sunset also made the view of them to be simply breathtaking.
The creator who gave us light, energy, protection and beauty deserves our
thanks. Yet some people insist that he does not exist. What would they think if
they found a watch in the desert? An accurate, working watch? A beautifully
designed watch? Would they not conclude that there does exist a watchmaker? An
intelligent watchmaker? One who appreciates beauty? Such is God who made us.
As far as the universe goes, nasa figured out its age at 13.7 billion years old.
As the romans developed and slowly built archetecture the city became bigger, cleaner, more advanced technologically, just as life on earth started out most likely, changing and adapting (As evidence of pygmy humanoid fossils suggests).
*I say most likely and suggest because its not necessarily fact just my point of view.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
Yeah, let's assume somebody did something for us and neglect the need to research and understand the universe ourselves.
People shouldn't humor these idiots: Their "it is too complex, therefore something else created it and we don't need to undertsand it" drivel is like a child's "just cause" rationalization; it is a copout for lacking the necessary mental capacity to construct the universe and a rationalization for their own ignorance.
Ever seen a physicist that believed entirely in creationism?
Kids should neither be taught evolution nor creationism, but given the bases for chemistry, physics and some rudimentary biological properties of organisms; intelligence will lead them to their own conjectures and maybe the inductive idiocy keeping creationism afloat will die with rational choice.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
The ancient watch in the sand argument falls apart on the simple notion that :
If you found a watch in the sand, you would know it was a watch, because you are a human, on earth in a time when watches exist. DUH! All you need to do is read it to see who the maker is LOL
If you then argue.... but hang on a sec smart guy, lets say you didnt know what a watch was....
Well then, am I human ? Is this earth we are doing out little scenario in ? If so what time peroid ?
And once you get past the watch bit.... we come to the sun rising and setting.... zomg....
We dont conclude anything from the timing of it, because we are observers not predictors of the phenomena.
Its a completetly nonsense rhyme that is designed to apeal to the simple of thought.....
This really boils down to the maths of the universe argument. That is if we look at the fact that we only know any real details about one solar system in our infinite universe and in it we find 9.... no wait 8 planets and a dwarf planet
and on one of those planets is life and possible evidence of previous or even existing life on others. Then considering the size of the universe life must be SUPER ABUNDANT!
On the other hand this argument says : despit the infinite size of the universe and that of the one solar system we know in detail 1:8 of the planets contain life. Its so fantasically mathamatically improbable that its a all a coincedence. THEREFORE god exists.
Which of the 2 arguments sounds more mathmatically logical ?
Which sounds more spiritually hopeful ?
And therein lies the choice for everyone on the planet. Do I feel spiritually hopeful, or do I feel mathmatically logical ?
The second argument begins with the premise that we are the only life in the universe. Its a basic tennant of all earth religions.
The first argument conludes with the assertion that, mathmatically speaking, the highest likelyhood is that we are not only not alone, but that there is lots of life in the univers and the law of averages says we will be somewhere in the middle of the food chain....
I dont know about the rest of you but for some strange reason I have always found the thought of that more apealing than the marshmallow certainty of faith.
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
I'm sorry Razorback, but I don't see how either of those arguments has anything to do with God.
Whether or not there's life out in the universe (there has to be somewhere, imho), isn't really something that tells us whether there's a God or not.
And Xemia, I'm sorry but you're wrong on some of your science facts. Matter is not destroyed in a nuclear reaction, it is converted to energy. That's where the loud popping noise comes from when you drop a nuke. E=MC2 <-- The M is multiplied by C2 and becomes E.
As well, anti-matter isn't 'hard science' yet. Last I heard they "THINK" they created tiny particles of it in a test chamber at some university. They don't know for sure because no one really knows anything about anti-matter. So as of right now, it's still a guess.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Religions like christianity Tell you that our minds arnt made to think outside of the box
like that verse that says right now we see dimly like through a window but after we die we we see it as it is.
Basicaly to me thats kinda logical for agnostics and would have to be something to consider - If God is real then he can do what he wants right? Including not alowing us to understand evarything.
But you dont realy need to study hardcore to try to understand the simple truth , all you have to do is look outside
and see that evarything has inteligent desighn in it. I'm agnostic right now that may change in the future i dont know but all I know is i want to be free, i dont want be bound by a God who would take away my choice's
and not allow me to understand the total truth about evarything and follow him by blind faith. I've used faith and seen some small miricles but if God is that kind of God which makes us feel like hes not there then i can use logic like - Faith -Hope- Dreams - are these connected Somehow? Are the secret truths in this ?
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>