The Bitish Economy is slowing down. But when it tried to join the Euro it crashed completely. Won't be making that mistake again. Black Wednesday they called it.
Our economic success has everything to do with sticking to the Pound. Our primary source of income is banking. Tight and flexible control of our currency is imperative to our nations wealth. Money markets is the only thing we actually do well.
The reason our energy prices are currently so high is that we are buying from Europe. It would be nice if your fantasy of a united Europe got us all cheaper prices, but this particular United Europe is charging us more than it charges the other Europeans and more than the Russians charge. Welcome to reality.
We don't need the EU to fund the greatest Engineers, we can do that ourselves, why pay the EU to do it for us? That just adds an extra layer of beurocracy to the price. You are an all round bad deal. How about, I just pay for the research, and if you like it, you can buy it off me for a reasonable price? I'll provide all the investment, I'll take all the risk, i'll make all the decisions and you can pay all the people at the EU for serving no purpose instead of me.
I already pay the EU much more than it's worth just to stop people like you from crying into your drinks. What you seem not to understand is that anything funded by the EU is unfairly weighted against me, so that I pay more. The less that is funded by the EU the better. EU funding might benefit you, but it's working against me.
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Again, the French and the Dutch voted "no". Get over it. No means no. Yes means yes, and they said "no".
Your poll about British opinion is inaccurate, out of date, poorly conducted, bias or any combination of the above. A federal Europe is wildly unpopular in Britain. We did our own polls. Thats why the referendum was conveniently swept under the carpet.
You may care about French, German and Italian public opinon, but I don't. If you wish to enter into a single government with them, by all means do. It won't of course be one capable of competeing with the U.S. in anything more serious than tennis matches. Which of course suits me as I have more investments in American companies than I do European, and they (combined wioth the Commonwealth) buy more of our goods than Europe does. Your attempted rivalry with the U.S. is detrimental to my wealth and security. As long as that undercurrent remains part of your goal, Europe will never unite under you.
There is no reason at all for me to accept the decision of the majority of foreigners. You don't live here anymore than the Chinese or Swahili's do. What I do is none of your business. I should not accept your rule or anybody elses without a fight. Nor will I.
The French, Germans and Italians are my brothers too. That doesn't mean I get to vote on how they live and do business in their own land. They are my brothers, they deserve freedom and independence also.
As for the majority? Are you still failing to comprehend the the vote was "no". You can justify it to yourself any way you like. Pretend they didn't really mean "no" but all ticked it by mistake, or you can assume that the French and Dutch are all so stupid that they didn't understand what the referendum was about, and only those people who voted yes did. You can look at as many poll's as you like, but the complete and official poll(otherwise known as a "vote") has been counted. The results are the same "no". No matter how much you want to that no to mean yes, it doesn't. Cry into your soup, or keep machinating towards your original goal, if you continue to pursue it now, you are looking for a fight. So build your EUFOR get yourself ready because the only way your going to get that kind of vote is at gun point.
You may want them to have a referendum about a single foreign minister, but you are ignoring that we just had one, and they voted "no". Why would I want a second foreign minister, I already have a perfectly good one. Why would I want the other people of Europe to have any say in my countries foreign policy, we don't agree on any of it. All that would do is paralyse my country (and yours) from being able to act in it's own favour.
We all sit round the same table at the U.N. and NATO and the EU, anything we need to agree on we already can and have the diplomatic institutions available to us to quickly facilitate it. When we have common goals, we have an established method of pursuing them already. Why are you looking for more?
I tell you why, because you want other countries in the EU to be under your control. If they have a foreign policy you don't like, you want to stop them. Or if they don't want to be involved in a foreign policy you do like, you want to make them. It's a dangerous game you are wanting to play. Someone will get hurt.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Herkmeck We control the Internation Space Station...so one more stupid thread like this...and we will flush the holding tanks as it passes over your home!
That would make you Russian. If he was talking about the Mir, but he is talking about the International one, so he could be from a host of different countries.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
Originally posted by Praetoriani In my opinion, it is very silly to be proud of your country. From a sociologist's point of view, they're only imaginary borders drawn on a map. A human social construct. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't mind if people feel a bit of national pride, but let's not get silly.
It's silly for me to take pride in what my direct ancestors have accomplished just cause we did it within your 'imaginary lines'? My family has lived in North America since 1640. I know probably less than 1/10th of what we have accomplished in that time. What I do know, however, gets me choked up. My great great aunt was a famous writer, known as a 'muckraker' who wrote editorals about John D. Rockafeller that lead to the formations of the first labor unions. She's in all our history books Should I not tell my children about her? This crusading female journalist in a time when women had shit for rights? My young sisters and unborn daughter shouldn't know and be proud of the fact that they're related to this amazing woman? I've already posted about my grandfathers life and how I take strength from his story. My maternal grandfather was an engineer on the Viking and Apollo projects. He helped put men in space.
Charles Bronson was my third cousin. Should I not feel like a total badass when I watch one of the Death Wish movies?
I understand what you are saying, however. We are all brethren regardless of nationality or race, with very little real differences. The only way we are going to progress as a species is to recognize this. Still there is a place for national and family pride. If we don't know who are ancestors and what they accomplished for are sake then what our we really?
The discussion with you is going nowhere, baff, because we started with facts and ended talking mostly about opinions. Normally simply I wouldn't answer and leave the "conversation" here, because it reached a point in which I can learn nothing from the other guy, but I'll make a very short exception today.
Our primary source of income is banking.
Which of course suits me as I have more investments in American companies than I do European, and they (combined wioth the Commonwealth) buy more of our goods than Europe does.
There is no reason at all for me to accept the decision of the majority of foreigners. You don't live here anymore than the Chinese or Swahili's do. What I do is none of your business. I should not accept your rule or anybody elses without a fight. Nor will I.
This is not true. Other European citizens are not equal to a chiense or an american, because we share the same european citizenship, a citizenship that grants us the right to move around the EU and work wherever you want (even as civil servant) without needing the permission from anyone, it grants us the right to vote on local elections when living in another state and grants us the right to vote for the EU elections no matter where you are. It grants the protection of any EU state embassy when going outside the EU, and we share a common passport in which you can read "European Union". And the legitimate government of the UK agreed in the past with this. So I think there's enough evidence not to call europeans simple "foreigners".
Originally posted by Dinivan The discussion with you is going nowhere, baff, because we started with facts and ended talking mostly about opinions. Normally simply I wouldn't answer and leave the "conversation" here, because it reached a point in which I can learn nothing from the other guy, but I'll make a very short exception today.
What discussion? This is an anti american tirade you posted to start a flame war and make yourself feel superior. And when I pointed that out you started backpedling by claiming you had nothing against the United States.
Another national trait of the country I'm proud to call my homeland is the ability to see through bullshit. And thats exactly what most of your 'facts' were. A high infant death rate, illiteracy and 20% of our people believing the sun revolves around the earth? Those were boldface lies that you posted, I called you on it and now you're bailing. Shocking, absolutely shocking.
Originally posted by BigDogofBria What discussion? This is an anti american tirade you posted to start a flame war and make yourself feel superior. And when I pointed that out you started backpedling by claiming you had nothing against the United States. Another national trait of the country I'm proud to call my homeland is the ability to see through bullshit. And thats exactly what most of your 'facts' were. A high infant death rate, illiteracy and 20% of our people believing the sun revolves around the earth? Those were boldface lies that you posted, I called you on it and now you're bailing. Shocking, absolutely shocking.
Antiamerican? ah yes, the "either you are with us, or against us" policy. So the author of the original article is right, "Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American.". You should understand that it is possible to denote something bad about insert here the object/person/entity... but that doesn't mean you are expressing any kind of hate, sometimes it's even the contrary. I didn't want to start a flame war, and in overall the thread shows respect between those who have intervened, with me being the first to be as polite as I could (you must understand that I'm not english speaker so sometimes I might not have expressed very well).
I'v sat here and read all of this thread. And all I have to say is... To make the EU... There will have to be war... And if there was a vote in my country as too who I would help if Britan was to resist... Then there isn't even a moment of thought nessisary I would sign up for the Army and fly across the ocean to help them.
*cheers to the brits* From a young American(20)
~Redslayer-Saga of Ryzom~ Active again! ~Kinch/Lotu-WoW~ Retired True RedSlayer - Eve ~ Current Primary game
Stop staying that it's the USA who saved Europe from Hitler, we all know it's the Soviet who did the job! 80% of the German losses were against the Soviet Union.
The russians were occupying the germans while the americans took advantage of the situation and dealt necessary deathblows from the otherside. Neither side could have acheived victory without the other. Althought if the americans hadnt succeded at certain points it could have ended with berlin being nuked by the russians or the germans nuking the russians. It was more or less a race to see who could deal the deathblow.
Originally posted by Dinivan Originally posted by BigDogofBria What discussion? This is an anti american tirade you posted to start a flame war and make yourself feel superior. And when I pointed that out you started backpedling by claiming you had nothing against the United States. Another national trait of the country I'm proud to call my homeland is the ability to see through bullshit. And thats exactly what most of your 'facts' were. A high infant death rate, illiteracy and 20% of our people believing the sun revolves around the earth? Those were boldface lies that you posted, I called you on it and now you're bailing. Shocking, absolutely shocking.
Antiamerican? ah yes, the "either you are with us, or against us" policy. So the author of the original article is right, "Any office seeker saying otherwise would be committing political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled "un-American.". You should understand that it is possible to denote something bad about insert here the object/person/entity... but that doesn't mean you are expressing any kind of hate, sometimes it's even the contrary. I didn't want to start a flame war, and in overall the thread shows respect between those who have intervened, with me being the first to be as polite as I could (you must understand that I'm not english speaker so sometimes I might not have expressed very well). I look at it this way...You either meant to start a flamewar by bashing Americans or you are retarded and didn't know any better. As much as I'd like to go with the latter, I don't believe it.
Originally posted by baff I'm already bailing you out. Right now. I have been since when was it you said? 1991? Your loans are denominated in whatever denomination you agreed them. In my case, that will be Pounds Sterling and RenMinBi. No one forces you to accept it. You might not like my view and may wish to keep on telling my why foreign investors in America invest in America. The difference between us is, I am a foreign investor in America, and you are not. Why I invest in America, is whatever reason I say it is. How's that for data? I could provide links to me quoting myself if you need any validation. . I have no Investments in Africa. While it's true I can't make people give what they don't have, that's not really a problem for me. Because if you don't have it, I'll simply charge your neighbour extra to make up for my loss. For the record, I never lend money to people without assets of higher value than my investment. America isn't Africa. If for example in a fit of pique a fellow burn his house down, so that the bank had nothing to reposess. The Bank would still not lose money. It would raise it's rates and recover that money from all it's other debtors. I'm not going to be losing out. It is of course possible that Everyone I lend money to in the U.S. could all destroy everything they own of value all simultaneously, but somehow it isn't such a big risk for me. . In your nightmare scenario of a crashed and devalued economy in the U.S. I would not be crying at all, the amount of property I could repossess would increase as you value currency devalued. Plus, I have even more cash to lend and even more cash to spend. I will be buying even more of the U.S. than I already own. Everyone loves a bargain. So go ahead, devalue. That works for me too.
Finally a decent answer. I have no doubt that some of the loans are denominated in foreign currencies. The vast majority of loans including the entire government debt though is denominated in U.S. Dollars. I am sure as time goes on I would not loan to us in U.S. dollars since they are now hiding the total amount of dollars in circulation to me that would seem dangerous. I think all the key signs are there to try and use hyper-inflation to dig the government at least out of their hole. The years leading up to the termination of reporting the amount of dollars in circulation saw the line on the chart literally going straight up, and the value of the dollar versus foreign currencies has to say the least crashed in recent years. I really think they are up to something there, but only time will tell. Hopefully America as a whole will stop buying more crap then we make, but the materialistic culture is well entrenched so I doubt that will stop until the you know what hits the fan. One day a banker is gonna say enough and people will then have to adjust their lifestyles and stop racking up so much debt.
Do not try to share the fault, you can only blame the US for what happened. In 1971 the US abandoned the fixed rate between the dollar and gold, and the reason can be found in the external balance. The deficit in the capital account of the US, because it was a net exporter of capital, was early compensated by the commercial surplus based both in the higher productivity of its industry and by the strong growth of world imports. But during the 60's decade, the economies of developed countries decreased the competitiveness breach between them and the US, both because of their relative advances in productivity and because of the internal inflation problem of the US caused by the expansive policies adopted around 1965. In fact, the US had commercial deficit in 1968 for the first time, and it consolidated from 1971. This effect was reinforced by maintenance of the capital exports, some speculative movements of capital, and for the growing military spending generated by the Vietnam war and by the cold war Since Bretton Woods, the international liquidity depended on the gold and dollar reserves, and on the FMI loans. Gold production growth was very modest, so most of the liquidity depended on the capital exports of the US, as it had commercial surplus. But the growing US deficit caused a high growth on international liquidity, which couldn't be controlled, disappearing the international nominal anchor for the price stability, so the USA along with the oil crisis, caused an international economic crisis that specially affected Europe, it's effects over unemployment can still be seen today here, and it was partially caused by you. Do you understand me now when I say you betrayed us?
Betrayed or helped you stand on your own? From what you just said it sounds like Europe was awfully dependant on us. Would you be were you are today if you were still dependant on our financial policy? Would you be able to brag about the EU, or would it never have come into existence because you were still dependant on us?
This would be one of the few instances the United States actually did what was best for it. Have you seen our trade and tariff policy? Quite frankly we roll over and let the rest of the world screw us and Clinton should be shot for giving China most favored nation trading status that move alone has costs tens of millions of American jobs.
The US is number one in my book. I hope others feel the same about their own countries.
I hope not. You can only improve your country if you see its flaws, don't you think?
Whoever cheers from the stands screaming we're number two? Have you ever watched American news networks? Trust me we get shown all of our faults daily in HDTV. Thats one of the beauties of free speech and press.
Btw I agree with the guy that said that 20% of Americans believe that the sun circles the earth is a bunch of crap. Who did they poll for that answer to that one the 30 million illegal aliens from latin america with zero education?
Only letting the ones that will vote the same way as you in.
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As for who stands up and cheers for no.2?
Mostly I stand up and cheer for No. 5.
We've had a few numbers one's in our past, more than most, arguably the most.. But currently I'm cheering for no.5. If my country was no.1, I'd be cheering for no.1. 5 is good. I like it the best.
This would be one of the few instances the United States actually did what was best for it. Have you seen our trade and tariff policy? Quite frankly we roll over and let the rest of the world screw us and Clinton should be shot for giving China most favored nation trading status that move alone has costs tens of millions of American jobs.
A free trade policy most benefits the biggest industrial. Any country that you can get to accept free trade with, you will profit from. Unless they can outproduce you. Currently no one can, so free trade should still be your mantra.
Chinese imports might cost jobs, but exports to China create them, and cheap Chinese goods increase the standard of living for everyone in the whole country and lowers inflation. It also lowers the cost of living for everyone all round the world that China exports too, leaving them that little bit extra left over free to spend on Coca Colas.
Bush's trade and tariff policy is equally stupid. He keeps provoking trade wars with Europe in order to save jobs in swing states. For politicians, the good of the people comes second to the desire to keep their jobs.
Whoever cheers from the stands screaming we're number two? Have you ever watched American news networks? Trust me we get shown all of our faults daily in HDTV. Thats one of the beauties of free speech and press.
I watch two a night and read the New York Times. Your media is notoriously soft. It's nice to see what kind of stories you folk like to hear about, but I wouldn't exactly call them very challenging. It's like watching the John Cravens Newsround version.
A free trade policy most benefits the biggest industrial. Any country that you can get to accept free trade with, you will profit from. Unless they can outproduce you. Currently no one can, so free trade should still be your mantra.
Chinese imports might cost jobs, but exports to China create them, and cheap Chinese goods increase the standard of living for everyone in the whole country and lowers inflation. It also lowers the cost of living for everyone all round the world that China exports too, leaving them that little bit extra left over free to spend on Coca Colas.
Yeah assuming they had the same lenient trade policies towards the U.S. which they do not. That was Clinton's idiocy for giving them something they did not give in return. Your also confusing the U.S. GDP with actual industrial production the majority of our GDP is now derived from the service industry not industrial production. You want a new car call the japanese you want a some cheap clothes or cheap plastic junk you call the Chinese you need a consulting firm or your pants pressed call the U.S.
Whoever cheers from the stands screaming we're number two? Have you ever watched American news networks? Trust me we get shown all of our faults daily in HDTV. Thats one of the beauties of free speech and press.
I watch two a night and read the New York Times. Your media is notoriously soft. It's nice to see what kind of stories you folk like to hear about, but I wouldn't exactly call them very challenging. It's like watching the John Cravens Newsround version. And the New York times hasn't called for Bush's head on a platter for being the anti-christ? As far left as that paper leans I am shocked. If your media is like that new movie that English producer put out showing Bush getting assassinated I can see why you think our media is weak they still have some standards of decency, and it least they don't get the people they are covering killed. So there are some limits to what they are willing to do. Thats one of the reasons the New York Times is in hot water. Some of the terrorist finding techniques they revealed helped the enemy and for what exactly? I'd rather know that none of my countrymen died than know exactly how the government is identifiying terrorist cells, and incidentaly revealing to the terrorists exactly how they catch them that was just down right idiotic.
Originally posted by baff Only letting the ones that will vote the same way as you in. . As for who stands up and cheers for no.2? Mostly I stand up and cheer for No. 5. We've had a few numbers one's in our past, more than most, arguably the most.. But currently I'm cheering for no.5. If my country was no.1, I'd be cheering for no.1. 5 is good. I like it the best.
Do you truly believe deep down in your heart though that your country and your people are not the best?
Originally posted by Aetius73 Do you truly believe deep down in your heart though that your country and your people are not the best?
Don't you?
Of course I do, its a natural human response to view himself and the things percieved as his as inherently better. Logically, I know the US is not the best in everything, or even arguably most things, it most definately has its weak points.
To OP: Even if the statements presented were entirely true, its laughable to try and argue what it "best" by numbers.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by Aelfinn Originally posted by Aetius73 Do you truly believe deep down in your heart though that your country and your people are not the best?
Don't you?
Of course I do, its a natural human response to view himself and the things percieved as his as inherently better. Logically, I know the US is not the best in everything, or even arguably most things, it most definately has its weak points.
To OP: Even if the statements presented were entirely true, its laughable to try and argue what it "best" by numbers.
Of course I do I am just trying to get Mr. Stubborn to admit it too. I know he won't though that would actually mean he has to agree with me on a point.
Originally posted by Dinivan This is not true. Other European citizens are not equal to a chiense or an american, because we share the same european citizenship, a citizenship that grants us the right to move around the EU and work wherever you want (even as civil servant) without needing the permission from anyone, it grants us the right to vote on local elections when living in another state and grants us the right to vote for the EU elections no matter where you are. It grants the protection of any EU state embassy when going outside the EU, and we share a common passport in which you can read "European Union". And the legitimate government of the UK agreed in the past with this. So I think there's enough evidence not to call europeans simple "foreigners".
A right you share with every Chinese and Swahili residing here also. However, that's "council elections", not local elctions which are something different. Local elections get you representatives in Parliament. Council elections get you a representative with the local services. (Refuse collection, Buses, Streetsweeping etc).
My passport is not an EU passport, it's a Great Britian and Northern Ireland passport. Part of the EC. There is no mention of EU any where on it. The EU did not even exist when that treaty was signed between our 9 nations. It is however most definitely one of the new European Community kind.
And while you may be granted refuge in our foreign Embassies and I yours, we also grant that to commonwealth members and Americans, who can also work here and vote locally if they don't like the quality of their refuse collection.
Any EU resident can move and work here but they can't vote here until they get a citizenship.
As you say, you can vote for your local council members and EU representatives, should you so wish. N.B. Neither of these two votes offers you any regulatory effect on British statutes. You can't vote on domestic laws or foreign policy. You are guests only.
Your rights to legislate British people are exactly identical to the rights of Mongolians and Campucheans to legislate British people. We're all grown adults, thanks for the offer but we are perfectly capable of doing that for ourselves.
Both statements are false. Manufacturing is the largest exporting sector of the UK
Banking is our largest revenue stream. The city. The stock exchange. Currency exchange. Lloyds of London. Insurance. Underwriting. Investment funds. Pensions. Futures. Bonds. you get the idea. We are not a big exporter or manufacturer of anything. Maybe a hundred years ago.......
Of course manufacturing is our largest export. No one buys British Beef. Least of all Europeans. With the common agricultural policy as it is, our farmers can't compete in the European market. The fisheries policy penalises our fishermen also.
So here's a little experiment I want you to do for me, to demonstrate the level of British exports in Europe. Count how many British made products you own personally. When you drive to work tomorrow, count the number of foreign cars you see, and then count which ones are British.
My fridge and cellar are full of Spanish produce.
The webpage you provided was intresting to me and I thank you for it.I'm willing to stand corrected on our export markets thank you for the education. You might notice from that webpage you provided, that Britain imports more from Europe than it exports. With the EU, we make a net loss. Excuse me if I don't fall over myself with you to be in business there.
In 2004, we exported $200,851,532,000 to the EU, and imported $260,730,128,000 (figures from your given link).
Which means we would be a staggering $60 billion richer if we stopped trading with Europe entirely. That's a $1,000 extra a year for every citizen in the land.
Oh yes, almost forgot, plus our £14 billion membership fee, we wouldn't have to pay that anymore either. So that's $1500 the richer for every child and adult in the land.
You need us more than we need you. So you aren't really in too strong a bargaining position. We could always decide to pay less or no tax, we could set up trade tariffs, demand goods imported to the U.K. meet our own already existing strict standards, be measured by our own system of wieghts and measures. No loss to us. Might even turn out to be profitable.
We pay you tribute to keep you quiet and not start any wars, so that we can get on with our lives and business without interruption. If the money isn't working and you are still unable to do that, we might as well stop now. We could treble our army in a year with the money the EU costs us.
We signed up for the E.E.C. when our economy was struggling, we desperately needed new markets. It's never worked for us. And now the E.E.C. wants to be the EU and not only sell us all it's goods (made to it's own standards and no longer ours), but tax us for the priviliage and then tell us what to do. Take control of our army, speak for us with foreign powers and give us all instantly binding decrees without even so much as nod in the Queens direction........
Originally posted by baff Only letting the ones that will vote the same way as you in. . As for who stands up and cheers for no.2? Mostly I stand up and cheer for No. 5. We've had a few numbers one's in our past, more than most, arguably the most.. But currently I'm cheering for no.5. If my country was no.1, I'd be cheering for no.1. 5 is good. I like it the best.
That is what matters IMO. Love your country, not to the point of belittling others necessarily, but show some pride. EVERY country has its faults! Change what you can, and don't be brag with blind faith. There are few countries (if any) that can drink from the cup of impunity with out regret. Be proud of your county and its accomplishments, just don't overextened your bais.
Wow thats the beer talking
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
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No kidding Fadeus, considering the sacrifices made in previous and current generations.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
The Bitish Economy is slowing down. But when it tried to join the Euro it crashed completely. Won't be making that mistake again. Black Wednesday they called it.
Our economic success has everything to do with sticking to the Pound. Our primary source of income is banking. Tight and flexible control of our currency is imperative to our nations wealth. Money markets is the only thing we actually do well.
The reason our energy prices are currently so high is that we are buying from Europe. It would be nice if your fantasy of a united Europe got us all cheaper prices, but this particular United Europe is charging us more than it charges the other Europeans and more than the Russians charge. Welcome to reality.
We don't need the EU to fund the greatest Engineers, we can do that ourselves, why pay the EU to do it for us? That just adds an extra layer of beurocracy to the price. You are an all round bad deal. How about, I just pay for the research, and if you like it, you can buy it off me for a reasonable price? I'll provide all the investment, I'll take all the risk, i'll make all the decisions and you can pay all the people at the EU for serving no purpose instead of me.
I already pay the EU much more than it's worth just to stop people like you from crying into your drinks. What you seem not to understand is that anything funded by the EU is unfairly weighted against me, so that I pay more. The less that is funded by the EU the better. EU funding might benefit you, but it's working against me.
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Again, the French and the Dutch voted "no". Get over it. No means no. Yes means yes, and they said "no".
Your poll about British opinion is inaccurate, out of date, poorly conducted, bias or any combination of the above. A federal Europe is wildly unpopular in Britain. We did our own polls. Thats why the referendum was conveniently swept under the carpet.
You may care about French, German and Italian public opinon, but I don't. If you wish to enter into a single government with them, by all means do. It won't of course be one capable of competeing with the U.S. in anything more serious than tennis matches. Which of course suits me as I have more investments in American companies than I do European, and they (combined wioth the Commonwealth) buy more of our goods than Europe does. Your attempted rivalry with the U.S. is detrimental to my wealth and security. As long as that undercurrent remains part of your goal, Europe will never unite under you.
There is no reason at all for me to accept the decision of the majority of foreigners. You don't live here anymore than the Chinese or Swahili's do. What I do is none of your business. I should not accept your rule or anybody elses without a fight. Nor will I.
The French, Germans and Italians are my brothers too. That doesn't mean I get to vote on how they live and do business in their own land. They are my brothers, they deserve freedom and independence also.
As for the majority? Are you still failing to comprehend the the vote was "no". You can justify it to yourself any way you like. Pretend they didn't really mean "no" but all ticked it by mistake, or you can assume that the French and Dutch are all so stupid that they didn't understand what the referendum was about, and only those people who voted yes did. You can look at as many poll's as you like, but the complete and official poll(otherwise known as a "vote") has been counted. The results are the same "no". No matter how much you want to that no to mean yes, it doesn't. Cry into your soup, or keep machinating towards your original goal, if you continue to pursue it now, you are looking for a fight. So build your EUFOR get yourself ready because the only way your going to get that kind of vote is at gun point.
You may want them to have a referendum about a single foreign minister, but you are ignoring that we just had one, and they voted "no". Why would I want a second foreign minister, I already have a perfectly good one. Why would I want the other people of Europe to have any say in my countries foreign policy, we don't agree on any of it. All that would do is paralyse my country (and yours) from being able to act in it's own favour.
We all sit round the same table at the U.N. and NATO and the EU, anything we need to agree on we already can and have the diplomatic institutions available to us to quickly facilitate it. When we have common goals, we have an established method of pursuing them already. Why are you looking for more?
I tell you why, because you want other countries in the EU to be under your control. If they have a foreign policy you don't like, you want to stop them. Or if they don't want to be involved in a foreign policy you do like, you want to make them. It's a dangerous game you are wanting to play. Someone will get hurt.
If he was talking about the Mir, but he is talking about the International one, so he could be from a host of different countries.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
It's silly for me to take pride in what my direct ancestors have accomplished just cause we did it within your 'imaginary lines'? My family has lived in North America since 1640. I know probably less than 1/10th of what we have accomplished in that time. What I do know, however, gets me choked up. My great great aunt was a famous writer, known as a 'muckraker' who wrote editorals about John D. Rockafeller that lead to the formations of the first labor unions. She's in all our history books Should I not tell my children about her? This crusading female journalist in a time when women had shit for rights? My young sisters and unborn daughter shouldn't know and be proud of the fact that they're related to this amazing woman? I've already posted about my grandfathers life and how I take strength from his story. My maternal grandfather was an engineer on the Viking and Apollo projects. He helped put men in space.
Charles Bronson was my third cousin. Should I not feel like a total badass when I watch one of the Death Wish movies?
I understand what you are saying, however. We are all brethren regardless of nationality or race, with very little real differences. The only way we are going to progress as a species is to recognize this. Still there is a place for national and family pride. If we don't know who are ancestors and what they accomplished for are sake then what our we really?
lol actually he was my grandmother's cousin so that makes him my 1st cousin twice removed.
And it makes me a badass!
The discussion with you is going nowhere, baff, because we started with facts and ended talking mostly about opinions. Normally simply I wouldn't answer and leave the "conversation" here, because it reached a point in which I can learn nothing from the other guy, but I'll make a very short exception today.
Both statements are false. Manufacturing is the largest exporting sector of the UK by far, and the EU buys 57.8% of total UK's exports.Source: http://stat.wto.org/CountryProfile/WSDBCountryPFView.aspx?Language=E&Country=E25,GBPlease do not lie, I'm sufficiently interested in other EU states to know some facts about each of them.This is not true. Other European citizens are not equal to a chiense or an american, because we share the same european citizenship, a citizenship that grants us the right to move around the EU and work wherever you want (even as civil servant) without needing the permission from anyone, it grants us the right to vote on local elections when living in another state and grants us the right to vote for the EU elections no matter where you are. It grants the protection of any EU state embassy when going outside the EU, and we share a common passport in which you can read "European Union". And the legitimate government of the UK agreed in the past with this. So I think there's enough evidence not to call europeans simple "foreigners".What discussion? This is an anti american tirade you posted to start a flame war and make yourself feel superior. And when I pointed that out you started backpedling by claiming you had nothing against the United States.
Another national trait of the country I'm proud to call my homeland is the ability to see through bullshit. And thats exactly what most of your 'facts' were. A high infant death rate, illiteracy and 20% of our people believing the sun revolves around the earth? Those were boldface lies that you posted, I called you on it and now you're bailing. Shocking, absolutely shocking.
political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled
"un-American.". You should understand that it is possible to denote something bad about insert here the object/person/entity... but that doesn't mean you are expressing any kind of hate, sometimes it's even the contrary. I didn't want to start a flame war, and in overall the thread shows respect between those who have intervened, with me being the first to be as polite as I could (you must understand that I'm not english speaker so sometimes I might not have expressed very well).
I'v sat here and read all of this thread. And all I have to say is... To make the EU... There will have to be war... And if there was a vote in my country as too who I would help if Britan was to resist... Then there isn't even a moment of thought nessisary I would sign up for the Army and fly across the ocean to help them.
*cheers to the brits*
From a young American(20)
~Redslayer-Saga of Ryzom~ Active again!
~Kinch/Lotu-WoW~ Retired
True RedSlayer - Eve ~ Current Primary game
No, America is not the hero of WW2!
political suicide. In fact, anyone saying otherwise will be labeled
"un-American.". You should understand that it is possible to denote something bad about insert here the object/person/entity... but that doesn't mean you are expressing any kind of hate, sometimes it's even the contrary. I didn't want to start a flame war, and in overall the thread shows respect between those who have intervened, with me being the first to be as polite as I could (you must understand that I'm not english speaker so sometimes I might not have expressed very well).
I look at it this way...You either meant to start a flamewar by bashing Americans or you are retarded and didn't know any better. As much as I'd like to go with the latter, I don't believe it.
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Whoever cheers from the stands screaming we're number two? Have you ever watched American news networks? Trust me we get shown all of our faults daily in HDTV. Thats one of the beauties of free speech and press.
Btw I agree with the guy that said that 20% of Americans believe that the sun circles the earth is a bunch of crap. Who did they poll for that answer to that one the 30 million illegal aliens from latin america with zero education?
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EU isnt so much a country as a conglomerate of extremely select european nations.
if you cut parts of the united states out of those statistics they go up.
Just like the EU only letting the best european countries in.
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you''re one of the 2% who hasn''t, copy & paste this in your signature.
Only letting the ones that will vote the same way as you in.
.
As for who stands up and cheers for no.2?
Mostly I stand up and cheer for No. 5.
We've had a few numbers one's in our past, more than most, arguably the most.. But currently I'm cheering for no.5. If my country was no.1, I'd be cheering for no.1. 5 is good. I like it the best.
A free trade policy most benefits the biggest industrial. Any country that you can get to accept free trade with, you will profit from. Unless they can outproduce you. Currently no one can, so free trade should still be your mantra.
Chinese imports might cost jobs, but exports to China create them, and cheap Chinese goods increase the standard of living for everyone in the whole country and lowers inflation. It also lowers the cost of living for everyone all round the world that China exports too, leaving them that little bit extra left over free to spend on Coca Colas.
Bush's trade and tariff policy is equally stupid. He keeps provoking trade wars with Europe in order to save jobs in swing states. For politicians, the good of the people comes second to the desire to keep their jobs.
I watch two a night and read the New York Times. Your media is notoriously soft. It's nice to see what kind of stories you folk like to hear about, but I wouldn't exactly call them very challenging. It's like watching the John Cravens Newsround version.A free trade policy most benefits the biggest industrial. Any country that you can get to accept free trade with, you will profit from. Unless they can outproduce you. Currently no one can, so free trade should still be your mantra.
Chinese imports might cost jobs, but exports to China create them, and cheap Chinese goods increase the standard of living for everyone in the whole country and lowers inflation. It also lowers the cost of living for everyone all round the world that China exports too, leaving them that little bit extra left over free to spend on Coca Colas.
I watch two a night and read the New York Times. Your media is notoriously soft. It's nice to see what kind of stories you folk like to hear about, but I wouldn't exactly call them very challenging. It's like watching the John Cravens Newsround version.And the New York times hasn't called for Bush's head on a platter for being the anti-christ? As far left as that paper leans I am shocked. If your media is like that new movie that English producer put out showing Bush getting assassinated I can see why you think our media is weak they still have some standards of decency, and it least they don't get the people they are covering killed.
So there are some limits to what they are willing to do. Thats one of the reasons the New York Times is in hot water. Some of the terrorist finding techniques they revealed helped the enemy and for what exactly? I'd rather know that none of my countrymen died than know exactly how the government is identifiying terrorist cells, and incidentaly revealing to the terrorists exactly how they catch them that was just down right idiotic.
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Do you truly believe deep down in your heart though that your country and your people are not the best?
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Don't you?
Of course I do, its a natural human response to view himself and the things percieved as his as inherently better. Logically, I know the US is not the best in everything, or even arguably most things, it most definately has its weak points.
To OP: Even if the statements presented were entirely true, its laughable to try and argue what it "best" by numbers.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Don't you?
Of course I do, its a natural human response to view himself and the things percieved as his as inherently better. Logically, I know the US is not the best in everything, or even arguably most things, it most definately has its weak points.
To OP: Even if the statements presented were entirely true, its laughable to try and argue what it "best" by numbers.
Of course I do I am just trying to get Mr. Stubborn to admit it too. I know he won't though that would actually mean he has to agree with me on a point.
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A right you share with every Chinese and Swahili residing here also. However, that's "council elections", not local elctions which are something different. Local elections get you representatives in Parliament. Council elections get you a representative with the local services. (Refuse collection, Buses, Streetsweeping etc).
My passport is not an EU passport, it's a Great Britian and Northern Ireland passport. Part of the EC. There is no mention of EU any where on it. The EU did not even exist when that treaty was signed between our 9 nations. It is however most definitely one of the new European Community kind.
And while you may be granted refuge in our foreign Embassies and I yours, we also grant that to commonwealth members and Americans, who can also work here and vote locally if they don't like the quality of their refuse collection.
Any EU resident can move and work here but they can't vote here until they get a citizenship.
As you say, you can vote for your local council members and EU representatives, should you so wish. N.B. Neither of these two votes offers you any regulatory effect on British statutes. You can't vote on domestic laws or foreign policy. You are guests only.
Your rights to legislate British people are exactly identical to the rights of Mongolians and Campucheans to legislate British people. We're all grown adults, thanks for the offer but we are perfectly capable of doing that for ourselves.
Banking is our largest revenue stream. The city. The stock exchange. Currency exchange. Lloyds of London. Insurance. Underwriting. Investment funds. Pensions. Futures. Bonds. you get the idea. We are not a big exporter or manufacturer of anything. Maybe a hundred years ago.......
Of course manufacturing is our largest export. No one buys British Beef. Least of all Europeans. With the common agricultural policy as it is, our farmers can't compete in the European market. The fisheries policy penalises our fishermen also.
So here's a little experiment I want you to do for me, to demonstrate the level of British exports in Europe. Count how many British made products you own personally. When you drive to work tomorrow, count the number of foreign cars you see, and then count which ones are British.
My fridge and cellar are full of Spanish produce.
The webpage you provided was intresting to me and I thank you for it. I'm willing to stand corrected on our export markets thank you for the education. You might notice from that webpage you provided, that Britain imports more from Europe than it exports. With the EU, we make a net loss. Excuse me if I don't fall over myself with you to be in business there.
In 2004, we exported $200,851,532,000 to the EU, and imported $260,730,128,000 (figures from your given link).
Which means we would be a staggering $60 billion richer if we stopped trading with Europe entirely. That's a $1,000 extra a year for every citizen in the land.
Oh yes, almost forgot, plus our £14 billion membership fee, we wouldn't have to pay that anymore either. So that's $1500 the richer for every child and adult in the land.
You need us more than we need you. So you aren't really in too strong a bargaining position. We could always decide to pay less or no tax, we could set up trade tariffs, demand goods imported to the U.K. meet our own already existing strict standards, be measured by our own system of wieghts and measures. No loss to us. Might even turn out to be profitable.
We pay you tribute to keep you quiet and not start any wars, so that we can get on with our lives and business without interruption. If the money isn't working and you are still unable to do that, we might as well stop now. We could treble our army in a year with the money the EU costs us.
We signed up for the E.E.C. when our economy was struggling, we desperately needed new markets. It's never worked for us. And now the E.E.C. wants to be the EU and not only sell us all it's goods (made to it's own standards and no longer ours), but tax us for the priviliage and then tell us what to do. Take control of our army, speak for us with foreign powers and give us all instantly binding decrees without even so much as nod in the Queens direction........
No sale.
That is what matters IMO. Love your country, not to the point of belittling others necessarily, but show some pride. EVERY country has its faults! Change what you can, and don't be brag with blind faith. There are few countries (if any) that can drink from the cup of impunity with out regret. Be proud of your county and its accomplishments, just don't overextened your bais.
Wow thats the beer talking
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.