Originally posted by Precusor Best way to deal with the farmers and botters is to just perma bann the buyers.
Why do you have an EVE character as your avatar if that's your attitude, since EVE is a game that embraces selling in-game currency for real cash? The only requirement to make selling gold legal is that you have to buy a time card from CCP, then sell it for ISK. If gold buying offends you so deeply, it would make sense not to support CCP and their open support of gold-selling.
Originally posted by Aelfinn I get tired of explaining this sometimes. No, there is no law directly involving this. However, the EULA every single player agrees to and signs is a contract between the customer and the company. Selling ingame items and gold is a violation of that contract, which is protected by various civil laws.
You're not very good at explaining it if you're explaining legal matters using phrases like 'civil laws', since it's pretty much a meaningless phrase. Violating a contract opens you to sanctions spelled out in the contract (like being banned from the game) and opens the possability of you being sued for violating a contract, but doesn't open you to any kind of prosecution. Violating contracts, outside of a few special cases, is not at all against the law.
And everyone arguing for jail time for gold sellers needs to spend a week off of MMOs to try to develop a sense of perspective. The legal system has a hard time dealing just with people who commit serious crimes like robbery and assault, the fact that you feel a video game is less fun just doesn't compare with those.
Originally posted by iHatePants It all depends on whether it's impacting on the people around you, and gold sellers and people who buy from them are impacting the game and the people who play fairly.
The point is, you should not be able to sue people for subjective reasons, and fun is an entirely subjective experience. The game company can't guarantee that you will have fun, so they don't say so in the EULA; how are they supposed to be able to sue the farmers for disrupting a service (fun) which they never promised you in the first place? Especially when many of your "fellow victims" (like me) don't seem to be suffering at all. Laws can't be based on personal taste.
UNLESS you have totally open PVP with looting, MOB's looting players, item decay, no banks, private structures can be robbed, and a player based economy, then online cash for gold should be banned.
IF YOU HAVE totally open PVP with looting, MOB's looting players, item decay, no banks, private structures can be robbed, and a player based economy, then Cash for Gold has an inherent risk of being just blown cash and is fair to gameplay.
But I would still be against the Developer/Producer selling ingame coin/items, can be too much of a corrupting influence.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
The point is, you should not be able to sue people for subjective reasons, and fun is an entirely subjective experience. The game company can't guarantee that you will have fun, so they don't say so in the EULA; how are they supposed to be able to sue the farmers for disrupting a service (fun) which they never promised you in the first place? Especially when many of your "fellow victims" (like me) don't seem to be suffering at all. Laws can't be based on personal taste.
Noone's saying that people should be sued for ruining others' fun. What they are saying is that people should be banned for violating the terms within the EULA. And don't tell me that banning them will do little good. When the gold-farming company's bottom line starts showing red due to all the cash burned on attaining new CD keys, they'll back out, and leave. The simple fact is that no gaming company has been bold enough to actually take steps against players violating their own terms with regard to RMT.
That said, you can act like you're also a "victim" of gold farming, but I'd be more than willing to bet that you're just another happy IGE customer. The fact is, any player who has ever been directly affected by farmers, or their impact on an in-game economy and has been unwilling to spend real cash to buy game items or gold would firmly oppose RMT. An opinion on the subject so strong could only be based on personal experience, and I doubt you'd advocate RMT without being a buyer yourself. And what of these "emotional claims about inflation"?
When I used to play FFXI, at first things were fine, until RMT started showing up. The main way to make money in that game was not the money the monsters dropped, but the loot gained from camping an NM. As RMT moved in, these spawns became overcrowded to such a degree that going out and earning the item you wanted was beyond question, and buying the items off the AH came at such outrageous costs that noone was willing to pay for the items. Of course, RMT (and fellow players, to a very small degree) would suck up the cheaper items instantly, and the RMT would simply place the items back on the AH at extremely inflated costs. Of course, this all happened while FFXI had no "soul-bound" items, only exclusive items which were few and far between. This meant that items didn't just disappear, but should have gained in numbers, causing a decrease in costs. Somehow, though, the opposite happens and sure, the player-based economy was entirely to blame while gil prices from vendors such as IGE got lower and lower? Meanwhile, these items would become unattainable because of the simple fact that based on the usual trash loot gained during farming, there was no way to afford their outrageous prices.... and I quit only a year after FFXI's NA release. I couldn't possibly imagine the situation there now, nearly 3 years later.
As a final note, WoW is a bad example of how RMT can affect an economy. Given the fact that items in WoW are soulbound, this lends itself to a constant shortage of items that bind on equip, and a 0 value of items that bind on pickup other than however the people in charge of those drops decide to distribute them (DKP, etc.). Sure, the BOE items cost quite a bit, and the RMT capitalizes on impatient players who want to level quickly, but for those who have reached WoW's end-game this is a non-issue and the AH becomes almost entirely pointless beyond a certain point. With the instance drops in WoW, a player can go through that entire game without needing to use the AH, or RMT at all. Anyone can make enough gold there to pay for raiding repair costs.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
While I completely agree with the idea that people should be banned if they are caught, I don't see the practicality of it for several reason. First, how are you going to prove it? If my friend gives me 2000 gold in WoW, how can you prove detection wise I did or didn't buy it from a third party site or its just someone being nice? Even if you could detect it there is no way to prove who gives what to who is third party currency. Its not worth the effort for game companies to find out. It would require hundreds of GM's even in small games. Even then there is no garentee that it would stop.
Second, the third party currency industry is HUGE. Players are spending more money on currrency then on the games themselves. IGE owns more websites then you can shake a stick at. In fact this site is about one of the only larger MMO fansite NOT owned by them. Titles they own include THOTTBOT (the #1 WoW fan site) and Allakazam.com. This a hundreds of millions of dollars a year industry. Its not a small group of fringe people buying currency, its a great number of people in all games. (est 40-50% of all MMO players)
The fact of the matter is that the Players want the third party currency services and there is very little game companies can do about it. Better game design in the future MIGHT help but its unlikely. WoW has a simplishic game economy. It binds items on pickup, it has every practicle "control" there is (to quote a friend) "my dog licking the keyboard could make money in WoW". Has that stopped the currency trade? Not even close. WoW is the biggest currecy market of any game. You are fighting against an industry that is more powerful then most of the game companies.
Unfortunately, the players have no one to blame but themselve. Its an industry that totally 100% derives from the action/will of the players.
Originally posted by Torak While I completely agree with the idea that people should be banned if they are caught, I don't see the practicality of it for several reason. First, how are you going to prove it? If my friend gives me 2000 gold in WoW, how can you prove detection wise I did or didn't buy it from a third party site or its just someone being nice? Even if you could detect it there is no way to prove who gives what to who is third party currency. Its not worth the effort for game companies to find out. It would require hundreds of GM's even in small games. Even then there is no garentee that it would stop. Second, the third party currency industry is HUGE. Players are spending more money on currrency then on the games themselves. IGE owns more websites then you can shake a stick at. In fact this site is about one of the only larger MMO fansite NOT owned by them. Titles they own include THOTTBOT (the #1 WoW fan site) and Allakazam.com. This a hundreds of millions of dollars a year industry. Its not a small group of fringe people buying currency, its a great number of people in all games. (est 40-50% of all MMO players)
The fact of the matter is that the Players want the third party currency services and there is very little game companies can do about it. Better game design in the future MIGHT help but its unlikely. WoW has a simplishic game economy. It binds items on pickup, it has every practicle "control" there is (to quote a friend) "my dog licking the keyboard could make money in WoW". Has that stopped the currency trade? Not even close. WoW is the biggest currecy market of any game. You are fighting against an industry that is more powerful then most of the game companies.
Unfortunately, the players have no one to blame but themselve. Its an industry that totally 100% derives from the action/will of the players.
If you think about it, it actually wouldn't be very hard for GMs and such to find out who is an RMT in any game, and it wouldn't take nearly hundreds. The simplest way would be to create a log of every transaction occuring in the game; in this case, mostly the currency transactions. Now, I realize these logs would be enourmous, to the point that it would be rediculous to have a person sort through every single transaction that occurred. However, you don't even have to do this.
In the case of purchasing currency through third party sources, you are generally buying large sums - using FFXI as an example, players tend to buy hundreds of thousands, or even millions of gil at once. While these sums may not be exactly the same form game to game, the general concept would still hold true - buying small amounts of currency isn't extremely productive. Adding on to this, you figure that only a certain amount of characters can be created per game account, and all of these accounts and characters are available on current logs.
Using these two things, filtering the transaction logs becomes rather easy. Since the GMs and other administrators can get onto sites like IGE just like regular players, doing research on the amounts of purchaseable currency is fairly simple. As such, you can filter out any transaction that occur below these amounts. Next, you sort the transactions by the character/accounts involved in the transaction - the easiest way would be to sort by the character/account who transferred the currency, rather than the one who received it. This would show you have much currency is being transferred from the RMTs (in most cases) to the buyers. Since I highly doubt the RMTs would take the time to create new characters each time they wanted to do a transfer, the same character and/or account should show up multiple times in the transaction logs.
This would serve two purposes: One, you could find out exactly who the RMTs are. Since IP addresses, billing info, ect. is all logged by the game company, it is fairly trivial to then permanently ban these people from playing the game, unless they get an entirely new IP and billing info. Two, you can find out who is actually buying the currency. This is a little bit trickier, but offers more options in dealing with the problem:
1. Depending on how often these logs are checked (i.e. daily, weekly, monthly, etc), it is possible that the currency that was purchased could merely be taken away from the player. This leaves them without the currency they bought, but they have then lost the money they used to purchase it.
2. If the player has already spent enough of the currency that they would go into debt by using method #1, then you have the old standby of simply banning the buyers' accounts. Since many people have multiple accounts, it would probably be a good idea to ban ALL of them in this case, as extra punishment.
Also, if many of the bigger games started using methods such as these, it would be very possible to shut down sites like IGE completely. Since most players don't read the EULA at all, I'm sure game companies could make clauses in there which would make RMT'ing punishable by legal action. Instead of doing a bunch of small lawsuits against individuals, they would merely need to do a class-action lawsuit against all the people working for companies like IGE.
While IGE and its brethren are indeed more powerful than each individual game company, if they all started working together for a simple problem like this, it could be handled very quickly. While it may not eliminate RMT'ing completely (underground systems will pop up eventually), it would greatly stem the tide of RMTs in any game, since they would need to use methods almost more trouble than they are worth.
I agree that there are probably several things different companies could do to help "control" the issue but it comes down to a few things
The companies "will" and commitment to do it. All of this cost money. A simple "log" may sound "simple" however it would require funding to start and maintain. Also a log is only as good as it is put to use. Developement cost and staffing cost would be a factor in addition to maintaining and effectively using it. It would NOT be cost effective because its sole purpose would be to eliminate paying customers.
Motivation becomes an issue also. Personally I suspect that upward of 50% of MMO players are currency buyers in most large/popular games. Can any MMO afford to ban that high of a percentage of its customer base? Ban the farmers and most games would put themselves out of business.
Substantal proof that it has any "real" impact on the game. We all argue about it but honestly can anyone actually prove beyond a doubt that it hurts a game? It simply can not be done. Game economies are also influenced by a great many factors outside of currency farming.
The adility of the farmers to basically adapt and get around everything that has been thrown in their way up to this point and thrive. With all its safeguards WoW has become a money machine for companies like IGE.
In the end, its really not worth the headache for a game to aggressively pursue the issue.
Like I said, its in the players hands. Even easy game economies are overrun with farmers and currency buyers. It doesn't matter how "easy" you make it, some will always not want to do it.
Game designers will be force to do a few things possibly.
eliminate ingame economies altogether (which will not prevent Powerleveling services as long as "levels" exsist, even Guild Wars has Power leveling services availible as pathetic as that sounds)
Sell the currency themselves (SOE is experiementing with this)
live with it since you can not regulate the "intention" of a player.
Originally posted by Torak I agree that there are probably several things different companies could do to help "control" the issue but it comes down to a few things
The companies "will" and commitment to do it. All of this cost money. A simple "log" may sound "simple" however it would require funding to start and maintain. Also a log is only as good as it is put to use. Developement cost and staffing cost would be a factor in addition to maintaining and effectively using it. It would NOT be cost effective because its sole purpose would be to eliminate paying customers. Motivation becomes an issue also. Personally I suspect that upward of 50% of MMO players are currency buyers in most large/popular games. Can any MMO afford to ban that high of a percentage of its customer base? Ban the farmers and most games would put themselves out of business. Substantal proof that it has any "real" impact on the game. We all argue about it but honestly can anyone actually prove beyond a doubt that it hurts a game? It simply can not be done. Game economies are also influenced by a great many factors outside of currency farming. The adility of the farmers to basically adapt and get around everything that has been thrown in their way up to this point and thrive. With all its safeguards WoW has become a money machine for companies like IGE. In the end, its really not worth the headache for a game to aggressively pursue the issue. Like I said, its in the players hands. Even easy game economies are overrun with farmers and currency buyers. It doesn't matter how "easy" you make it, some will always not want to do it. Game designers will be force to do a few things possibly.
eliminate ingame economies altogether (which will not prevent Powerleveling services as long as "levels" exsist, even Guild Wars has Power leveling services availible as pathetic as that sounds) Sell the currency themselves (SOE is experiementing with this) live with it since you can not regulate the "intention" of a player.
I agree that their "will" to do anything about it is probably the largest factor in them taking any action at all. The sad fact is, they probably don't want to ban anyone who's paying for a subscription. Sad but true.
Personally, I'd never advocate banning 50% of a game's playerbase unless that portion of the playerbase are all farmers. I don't think banning the players buying the gold is the solution. The source, or the sellers, is what needs to be cut off.
There's more than enough proof of their impact on any game where RMT has a substantial presence. Personally, when I go to kill a mob that perhaps drops a valuable item I want, and can't do so due to the same character having farmed that mob for the past 2 weeks straight, for 24 hours a day, then that impacts my gameplay. That's more than enough proof for me. Also, you do raise an interesting point about the game economies. The fact is, there'll always be jackass players who attempt to monopolize markets and raise prices to make a quick profit. The stupid part is that this influences inflation to an equivalent degree to that of RMTs, and in the end devalues the very currency they just made, not to mention the impact on new players. I would say this happens due to farmers far more often, however, and the fact is that as any game progresses where buyable materials or items remain in high demand, and low supply, the economy will struggle. This part's in the hands of the folks running the game, and less the players'.
You say they'll adapt. I say they won't. The fact is, they have to buy a copy of whatever game they're farming just like anyone else. Ban that account (CD key or whatever) and *poof* there goes that copy. The only way to get that farmer up and running again is with another copy of the game. Yay for more money for the company running that game, and yay for another bannable account. As for safeguards ........ what safeguards? When I played WoW, there were none. I can't imagine what you even mean by "WoW safeguards".
My opinion is that it really IS worth the headache for any MMO to rid their game of farmers. That headache would be but a tiny pain if dealt with from the start, rather than the brain-crushing migraine that WoW would require to clean up. I mean look at it this way - these games are passively advocating cheating within their game by allowing farmers to thrive while doing nothing about them, and make no mistake about it - buying in-game currencies with real money is cheating. I don't care how any one player wants to excuse doing so, it is still cheating as much as using an aimbot/wallhack in a game like CS is. "Oh well I'm laggy, so it's O.K. for me to use an aimbot cuz I still suck." "Well I don't have the time to actually farm X item because I have to do Y thing IRL." It's no excuse, period. If you don't like how something works in a game, or that it might take you a certain amount of time to accomplish something, then you're in the wrong game, IMO.
You are right, though. If players would stop buying currency in games, the farmers would all but go away. That doesn't mean that game companies shouldn't be responsible for enforcing their own EULA's, though. What's a player to think when they get punished for something that has little to no effect on the game itself because of a EULA violation, when these farmers are flagrantly violating the EULA by their very existance, and influence every single player of that game's experience?
I'd hope that would never happen. I've always enjoyed games with economies and I think it's an aspect of most MMOs that's a necessity to some degree. And sure powerleveling services will always exist, but that has little to do with the rest of the players. If a person doesn't have time to level themselves from say, 1-60 in WoW, what makes them think they'll have time to raid, PVP, or accomplish anything else when they get there? I could care less about that - they're worthless.
This is the worst excuse of a "solution" that I could ever possibly imagine. This is merely their way of doing absolutely nothing about the problem, while making extra money while they're at it. Farmers would still exist, probably at far more competitive prices than the game company itself would offer. Pathetic excuse of a solution, really. Still completely advocates the cheap/easy way out, but since it's available to everyone, couldn't be called cheating.
Meh, the whole "let it slide" mentality is just annoying as hell to me. The solutions that are available to send farmers packing are many, I'm sure. It's not a matter of regulating players' intentions - it's a matter of banning players who are violating the policy they agreed to before ever playing the game. There's just no excuse to let this crap go on as MMOs evolve. Hell, RMT companies get away with their junk all day long but I remember when playing RFO, a player tried to eBay their character, got found out, and their account was banned. Meanwhile, there were still plenty of farmers to be found in-game, and I'm sure powerleveling services were plenty active there as well.
Anyway, the whole thing boils down to the companies being willing to lose a few RMT subscribers to get and maintain more players. I've quit games in the past due in part to their issues with RMT, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. A player remaining content with a game has a lot to do with their satisfaction of how things like this get handled. It just boils down to who these guys value more - foreign RMT, or real players. Sadly, the choice has overwhelmingly been the former for quite some time.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
I dont see the big deal about it. Suppose I worked my butt of and accumulated allot of gold. I dont use the gold, so I sell it for real money. I still worked for it, I didnt spend it, I sold it so someone else could spend it.
How in the world can that ruin the economy?
Basically, I see its the people that cant afford to buy gold and has to work for it, getting mad? I prefer to have someone work for me if I want to. I play the game the way I want, I pay the monthly fee and if I decide I want a certain item, I will get it.
Some people do not have the free time to spend in the game to make that kind of cash, they work for a living.
Some people make allot of money in RL. So, if they decide to pay someone for their work in game...SO WHAT.
Play the game the way you want and I will play the game the way I want. Just quit whining about it. It will not change.....EVER. People are still buying gold in UO and that game has been around since 1997!!!!
I dont see the big deal about it. Suppose I worked my butt of and accumulated allot of gold. I dont use the gold, so I sell it for real money. I still worked for it, I didnt spend it, I sold it so someone else could spend it.
How in the world can that ruin the economy?
Basically, I see its the people that cant afford to buy gold and has to work for it, getting mad? I prefer to have someone work for me if I want to. I play the game the way I want, I pay the monthly fee and if I decide I want a certain item, I will get it.
Some people do not have the free time to spend in the game to make that kind of cash, they work for a living.
Some people make allot of money in RL. So, if they decide to pay someone for their work in game...SO WHAT.
Play the game the way you want and I will play the game the way I want. Just quit whining about it. It will not change.....EVER. People are still buying gold in UO and that game has been around since 1997!!!!
Why would you work your butt off for currency that you didn't need? Why would you sell spare currency that you had in any MMO you intended to continue playing? There's always going to be something you'll need it for down the road. Players quitting an MMO and giving their currency away, or selling it I don't really have a problem with. You're merely transferring the effort put into your character into strengthening another player. Fine.
As for people not affording to buy currency, that's just a stupid thing to say. Some people might actually enjoy the satisfaction of earning what they have, whether or not you do. Again, if you don't like the way the game works in that you might have to do things you don't want to do to get what you have, then maybe that game isn't for you. What satisfaction do you get by cheating your way to the top of a game you supposedly have so little time to play?
Games are not supposed to be work. If you can't have fun enjoying the gameplay elements given to you by the game, then really, pick a new genre. This argument is so overdone it's absurd. If your fun comes at the expense of others because of your support for something such as RMT, go screw yourself . RMT could be driven out, and people need to stop sitting back, taking it up the ass because they think there's nothing that can be done about it. Calling people who disagree with you whiners is just a pathetic attempt to shut the people up who'd have your win-button shut off.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by outfctrl I dont see the big deal about it. Suppose I worked my butt of and accumulated allot of gold. I dont use the gold, so I sell it for real money. I still worked for it, I didnt spend it, I sold it so someone else could spend it. How in the world can that ruin the economy? Basically, I see its the people that cant afford to buy gold and has to work for it, getting mad? I prefer to have someone work for me if I want to. I play the game the way I want, I pay the monthly fee and if I decide I want a certain item, I will get it. Some people do not have the free time to spend in the game to make that kind of cash, they work for a living. Some people make allot of money in RL. So, if they decide to pay someone for their work in game...SO WHAT. Play the game the way you want and I will play the game the way I want. Just quit whining about it. It will not change.....EVER. People are still buying gold in UO and that game has been around since 1997!!!!
If it's against the EULA, which is the case for most MMOGs, then you are not entitled to play the game the way you want, by selling and buying items. Other players choose to play MMOGs because they expect a fair level playing field for sportsmanship reasons and don't enjoy the game otherwise. You are diminishing their enjoyment factor which you do not have a right to do, by selling/buying items since it is against the EULA.
It does ruin the economy also by creating deflation of items on the lower end and inflation of rare items.
Why don't you go play a Korean item shop game or Project Entropia where you are allowed to sell/buy your way with real money?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Outside of SOE's Services it is banned, but they found a legal loophole through by selling the time they spent collecting the gold instead of the gold itself, someone really needs to patch up that loophole then the MMORPG companies can go sue crazy on their RMT asses if they try it, although the law is a very confusing thing, so who knows how long that could take? especially with all the subscription fees they get from any RMT's.
~Playing~ None - Vanguard: SoH ~Played~ WoW - Paladin 20 - Hunter 20 - Druid 30 City Of Heroes/Villians - Scrapper 30 Final Fantasy XI - Black Mage/White Mage 75 Guild Wars - Warrior/Monk 20 - Assassin/Warrior 20
Noone's saying that people should be sued for ruining others' fun. What they are saying is that people should be banned for violating the terms within the EULA.
Then you are saying that if the EULA allows gold farming and selling, everyone will be perfectly fine with it?
An opinion on the subject so strong could only be based on personal experience, and I doubt you'd advocate RMT without being a buyer yourself.
You realise of course that following that line of reasoning would also lead to conclusions such as "anyone who advocates gay rights must themselves be gay", "anyone who advocates abolishing poverty in Africa must be a poor citizen of an African country" and so on. Some of us simply care about more than just ourselves. You are trying to ban an activity which provides daily bread for many poor people, so I will speak up in their defence.
at first things were fine, until RMT started showing up.
You are perhaps assuming that gold farmers have some sort of "grace period" before hitting the new games?
As RMT moved in, these spawns became overcrowded to such a degree that going out and earning the item you wanted was beyond question
And if you only had normal players there, the situation would be different how? Normal players can be just as annoying if not even more so than farming bots, especially in a system like that. Fix the cause, not symptoms. Instances were invented precisely because this was a huge problem anyway, with or without farming bots.
Of course, RMT (and fellow players, to a very small degree) would suck up the cheaper items instantly, and the RMT would simply place the items back on the AH at extremely inflated costs.
Normal players would usually just sell the items they get from mobs for those inflated prices and hence afford anything they want anyway; if the entire game has only a few good farming spots, wouldn't the exact same problem crop up anyway as soon as total server population reaches, say, 100-200?
This meant that items didn't just disappear, but should have gained in numbers, causing a decrease in costs. Somehow, though, the opposite happens
It would be interesting to find out why it happened actually; if prices are going up, the amount of money in the economy must be increasing faster than the number of items, so there must be a hidden money source somewhere within it. It could be related to money/item sinks, endgame cash flows, or even plain old fashion duping hacks. What it means though is that if farmers are producing items rather than gold, they are actually decreasing the harmful effects of what amounts to a devastating flaw in the system rather than increasing it.
As a final note, WoW is a bad example of how RMT can affect an economy.
True, because it happens to have an economy which is not inherently flawed to begin with.
For example, many people attribute the rising prices of low level goods to gold farmers. What they don't consider are the effects of several thousand level 60 players sending hundreds or even thousands of gold to their alts and simply buying what ever they need, no matter what the cost. All that money was earned fairly, it's just that a level 60 can earn cash 10.000+ times faster than a level 1. If farmers were to farm low level goods (which doesn't make any sense btw), they would actually be countering some of that incredibly powerful inflationary force, not making it worse.
Originally posted by Shiymmas Why would you work your butt off for currency that you didn't need? Why would you sell spare currency that you had in any MMO you intended to continue playing? There's always going to be something you'll need it for down the road. Suppose I am doing it for RL money and not for ingame items? It's my choice to play the game the way I want, not yours. Players quitting an MMO and giving their currency away, or selling it I don't really have a problem with. You're merely transferring the effort put into your character into strengthening another player. Fine. Correct
As for people not affording to buy currency, that's just a stupid thing to say. Some people might actually enjoy the satisfaction of earning what they have, whether or not you do. Then there is no reason to condemn people who dont. Correct? Again, if you don't like the way the game works in that you might have to do things you don't want to do to get what you have, then maybe that game isn't for you. What satisfaction do you get by cheating your way to the top of a game you supposedly have so little time to play? Ridiculous statement there. How do you call that cheating? I play the way I want, you play the way you want. I do not affect you whatsover. I still do the same quests and buy the same things. I just dont have time to sit in front of a tube for hours on end.
Games are not supposed to be work. If you can't have fun enjoying the gameplay elements given to you by the game, then really, pick a new genre. This argument is so overdone it's absurd. If your fun comes at the expense of others because of your support for something such as RMT, go screw yourself . RMT could be driven out, and people need to stop sitting back, taking it up the ass because they think there's nothing that can be done about it. Calling people who disagree with you whiners is just a pathetic attempt to shut the people up who'd have your win-button shut off. OMG...win button? My fun doesnt come from the expense of others. Matter a fact, my fun makes their fun worth while. It doesnt matter what anyone says, online gold for real money will always exist, no matter how many people complain about it. So just get over it, suck it up and play the game they way you want and quit condemning people the way they like to play. If you want, I could find a small violin on Ebay for you to play.
Sure hasnt slowed down the gold farmers. Why do you care anyways how I play?
The sodding EULA, as you call it, is to make you people that complain, have something to fall back on and to make you warm and fuzzy.
BTW.......I have never bought one piece of gold with real money. I am playing the "Devils Advocate" here just to hear your views. Personally, I am not against buying gold with real money. It has never affected my gameplay....EVER.
Some of my sons friends have bought gold to get their epic mounts in WoW. How in the world does that affect you? It doesnt. It sure makes their game playing more enjoyable though.
Then you are saying that if the EULA allows gold farming and selling, everyone will be perfectly fine with it? No, and I personally wouldn't even bother to play that game.
You realise of course that following that line of reasoning would also lead to conclusions such as "anyone who advocates gay rights must themselves be gay", "anyone who advocates abolishing poverty in Africa must be a poor citizen of an African country" and so on. Some of us simply care about more than just ourselves. You are trying to ban an activity which provides daily bread for some poor people, so I will speak up in their defence. Ok, then I retract that statement. However, under what conditions do you think these people work for their "daily bread"? I won't make any assumptions here, but their workplaces have been compared to sweatshops on more than one occassion.
You are perhaps assuming that gold farmers have some sort of "grace period" before hitting the new games? It would seem that they would require a demand before providing the supply in a business that would require a substantial investment ahead of time. So yeah, I DO assume there's somewhat of a period when a game is new that would go without farming. How are the farmers to know how a game's looting system or economy is going to work out? How popular will the game be and how much supply will they give to meet demands? I think you get the point.
And if you only had normal players there, the situation would be different how? Normal players can be just as annoying if not even more so than farming bots, especially in a system like that. Fix the cause, not symptoms. Instances were invented precisely because this was a huge problem anyway, with or without farming bots. The situation would be different because real players get what they need and move on, unless farming for a particular item to make money. However, no normal player will be at a spawn on a 24/7 basis even if they were there to farm, and I've encountered plenty of players in the past who were willing to move on to allow others the chance at what they were after. That isn't the case with a farmer. Also, I don't think making everything instanced is the solution. I'm playing an MMO, not picking a server of people to play with while in a game. You take a lot away from a game where you're forced into your own private zones every time you want to accomplish anything. To WoW's credit, they did manage to pull this off quite well.
Normal players would usually just sell the items they get from mobs for those inflated prices and hence afford anything they want anyway; if the entire game has only a few good farming spots, wouldn't the exact same problem crop up anyway as soon as total server population reaches, say, 100-200? I don't exactly think that'd be the case, no. The fact is, RMTs constantly work towards monopolizing markets in whatever game they're present in. Players simply cannot afford the risk involved in doing so. If supply does not meet demand, then of course that item's price will increase, and that's how it should be. The problem is that RMT scales the economy across the board by bringing in more currency than any normal players would. They then sell that currency to people who will presumably be less responsible with it than others who have earned it. After all, what difference does it make to Johnny who's buying his new "weapon of omgsmitingthebadguys" off mommy and daddy's credit card? Also, the main factor you have to be aware of with farming is that RMT farm a spot, and never leave. Players move on. They clog what should be a flow of players passing through a needed area.
It would be interesting to find out why it happened actually; if prices are going up, the amount of money in the economy must be increasing faster than the number of items, so there must be a hidden money source somewhere within it. It could be related to money/item sinks, endgame cash flows, or even plain old fashion duping hacks. What it means though is that if farmers are producing items rather than gold, they are actually decreasing the harmful effects of what amounts to a devastating flaw in the system rather than increasing it. I believe in FFXI it was a combination of two things: the farmers were bringing more money into the economy than items, and by their monopoly of certain items, they were simply throwing certain ones away to maintain their rarity, thus allowing them to charge more for them. I might be giving them more credit than their due here, but the AH would dictate that these items were staying very scarce when they were in fact known not to be. However, due to the RMT's monopolizing the creatures that dropped these items, and controlling their market value by restricting the number available and buying any that appeared at below-average price, they continually drove their prices up. In FFXI you could see buyer and seller names in the auction history for items, as well as the prices they sold for. You could literally watch this process take place at the AH.
True, because it happens to have an economy which is not inherently flawed to begin with. You're right, really. WoW combined abundance of items with a necessity of effort to gain what you truly wanted. There were few shortcuts to get things players wanted, and no BOE epic "staff of omgwtfbbqpwn" could ever match instanced drops. Of course, other games have these problems still, and they're the ones that are the target of this debate. Frankly, my concern is more for future games than past, however, as I've moved on from MMOs that are currently available.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
I'm sure I already replied to this but seems to be another thread. Anyway, on a popular WoW fanbase board full of raiders and that, 40% of people admitted to buying gold. Their reasoning? because of the huge costs to repair. So I am kind of inclined to reason it is the WoW system at fault. (1) for having such huge repair costs. and (2) for it being allowable to replicable by an out of game solution.
The first point, huge repair costs, I think also add onto this some people switch talent builds as they do pvp and raiding so this also adds onto the cost.
The second point, I am aware that Everquest had a similar system but instead of losing durability of items, you lost exp. Everytime you raided, so many deaths and you would have to regain xp. Although admittedly it was probably a lot less times required than the probably number of times you need to repair in WoW. But the point is that people couldn't use an out-of-game system to rectify is like with WoW.
So, I think really WoW needs to rectify one of the points, because for 40% of people to be doing it suggests more of the problem of the system than perhaps the players.
There's a huge amount of people buy gold for real money. More than you would ever guess. Why do you think it's such a big market for such things? Even I have considered doing it. It should definetly be taken hand with so that you don't get tempted to buy gold/items for real money.
Yes, it definetly ruins the game economy and not to talk about the atmosphare.
Comments
Why do you have an EVE character as your avatar if that's your attitude, since EVE is a game that embraces selling in-game currency for real cash? The only requirement to make selling gold legal is that you have to buy a time card from CCP, then sell it for ISK. If gold buying offends you so deeply, it would make sense not to support CCP and their open support of gold-selling.
Ya heard
You're not very good at explaining it if you're explaining legal matters using phrases like 'civil laws', since it's pretty much a meaningless phrase. Violating a contract opens you to sanctions spelled out in the contract (like being banned from the game) and opens the possability of you being sued for violating a contract, but doesn't open you to any kind of prosecution. Violating contracts, outside of a few special cases, is not at all against the law.
And everyone arguing for jail time for gold sellers needs to spend a week off of MMOs to try to develop a sense of perspective. The legal system has a hard time dealing just with people who commit serious crimes like robbery and assault, the fact that you feel a video game is less fun just doesn't compare with those.
The point is, you should not be able to sue people for subjective reasons, and fun is an entirely subjective experience. The game company can't guarantee that you will have fun, so they don't say so in the EULA; how are they supposed to be able to sue the farmers for disrupting a service (fun) which they never promised you in the first place? Especially when many of your "fellow victims" (like me) don't seem to be suffering at all. Laws can't be based on personal taste.
Deadhorse that has been beaten upon for years and your lifetime to come ( sad but true )
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
I think it should be banned.
think about this: would you pay someone to play Oblivion or other singleplayer game?
Probably not.
Carpsyco
cmc.mrx.ca/
Awesome Free Trading Card Game!
IF YOU HAVE totally open PVP with looting, MOB's looting players, item decay, no banks, private structures can be robbed, and a
player based economy, then Cash for Gold has an inherent risk of being
just blown cash and is fair to gameplay.
But I would still be against
the Developer/Producer selling ingame coin/items, can be too much of a corrupting influence.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
XXXDefinetly,it destroys the point of the game,people who cheat like that should be banned 4 lifeXXX
BYAA!-CALVIN C
The only way to get anywhere in life is to pwn everything in site...and repeat.
That said, you can act like you're also a "victim" of gold farming, but I'd be more than willing to bet that you're just another happy IGE customer. The fact is, any player who has ever been directly affected by farmers, or their impact on an in-game economy and has been unwilling to spend real cash to buy game items or gold would firmly oppose RMT. An opinion on the subject so strong could only be based on personal experience, and I doubt you'd advocate RMT without being a buyer yourself. And what of these "emotional claims about inflation"?
When I used to play FFXI, at first things were fine, until RMT started showing up. The main way to make money in that game was not the money the monsters dropped, but the loot gained from camping an NM. As RMT moved in, these spawns became overcrowded to such a degree that going out and earning the item you wanted was beyond question, and buying the items off the AH came at such outrageous costs that noone was willing to pay for the items. Of course, RMT (and fellow players, to a very small degree) would suck up the cheaper items instantly, and the RMT would simply place the items back on the AH at extremely inflated costs. Of course, this all happened while FFXI had no "soul-bound" items, only exclusive items which were few and far between. This meant that items didn't just disappear, but should have gained in numbers, causing a decrease in costs. Somehow, though, the opposite happens and sure, the player-based economy was entirely to blame while gil prices from vendors such as IGE got lower and lower? Meanwhile, these items would become unattainable because of the simple fact that based on the usual trash loot gained during farming, there was no way to afford their outrageous prices.... and I quit only a year after FFXI's NA release. I couldn't possibly imagine the situation there now, nearly 3 years later.
As a final note, WoW is a bad example of how RMT can affect an economy. Given the fact that items in WoW are soulbound, this lends itself to a constant shortage of items that bind on equip, and a 0 value of items that bind on pickup other than however the people in charge of those drops decide to distribute them (DKP, etc.). Sure, the BOE items cost quite a bit, and the RMT capitalizes on impatient players who want to level quickly, but for those who have reached WoW's end-game this is a non-issue and the AH becomes almost entirely pointless beyond a certain point. With the instance drops in WoW, a player can go through that entire game without needing to use the AH, or RMT at all. Anyone can make enough gold there to pay for raiding repair costs.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
While I completely agree with the idea that people should be banned if they are caught, I don't see the practicality of it for several reason. First, how are you going to prove it? If my friend gives me 2000 gold in WoW, how can you prove detection wise I did or didn't buy it from a third party site or its just someone being nice? Even if you could detect it there is no way to prove who gives what to who is third party currency. Its not worth the effort for game companies to find out. It would require hundreds of GM's even in small games. Even then there is no garentee that it would stop.
Second, the third party currency industry is HUGE. Players are spending more money on currrency then on the games themselves. IGE owns more websites then you can shake a stick at. In fact this site is about one of the only larger MMO fansite NOT owned by them. Titles they own include THOTTBOT (the #1 WoW fan site) and Allakazam.com. This a hundreds of millions of dollars a year industry. Its not a small group of fringe people buying currency, its a great number of people in all games. (est 40-50% of all MMO players)
The fact of the matter is that the Players want the third party currency services and there is very little game companies can do about it. Better game design in the future MIGHT help but its unlikely. WoW has a simplishic game economy. It binds items on pickup, it has every practicle "control" there is (to quote a friend) "my dog licking the keyboard could make money in WoW". Has that stopped the currency trade? Not even close. WoW is the biggest currecy market of any game. You are fighting against an industry that is more powerful then most of the game companies.
Unfortunately, the players have no one to blame but themselve. Its an industry that totally 100% derives from the action/will of the players.
------------------------------------------------------
Do I ever sleep?
In the case of purchasing currency through third party sources, you are generally buying large sums - using FFXI as an example, players tend to buy hundreds of thousands, or even millions of gil at once. While these sums may not be exactly the same form game to game, the general concept would still hold true - buying small amounts of currency isn't extremely productive. Adding on to this, you figure that only a certain amount of characters can be created per game account, and all of these accounts and characters are available on current logs.
Using these two things, filtering the transaction logs becomes rather easy. Since the GMs and other administrators can get onto sites like IGE just like regular players, doing research on the amounts of purchaseable currency is fairly simple. As such, you can filter out any transaction that occur below these amounts. Next, you sort the transactions by the character/accounts involved in the transaction - the easiest way would be to sort by the character/account who transferred the currency, rather than the one who received it. This would show you have much currency is being transferred from the RMTs (in most cases) to the buyers. Since I highly doubt the RMTs would take the time to create new characters each time they wanted to do a transfer, the same character and/or account should show up multiple times in the transaction logs.
This would serve two purposes: One, you could find out exactly who the RMTs are. Since IP addresses, billing info, ect. is all logged by the game company, it is fairly trivial to then permanently ban these people from playing the game, unless they get an entirely new IP and billing info. Two, you can find out who is actually buying the currency. This is a little bit trickier, but offers more options in dealing with the problem:
1. Depending on how often these logs are checked (i.e. daily, weekly, monthly, etc), it is possible that the currency that was purchased could merely be taken away from the player. This leaves them without the currency they bought, but they have then lost the money they used to purchase it.
2. If the player has already spent enough of the currency that they would go into debt by using method #1, then you have the old standby of simply banning the buyers' accounts. Since many people have multiple accounts, it would probably be a good idea to ban ALL of them in this case, as extra punishment.
Also, if many of the bigger games started using methods such as these, it would be very possible to shut down sites like IGE completely. Since most players don't read the EULA at all, I'm sure game companies could make clauses in there which would make RMT'ing punishable by legal action. Instead of doing a bunch of small lawsuits against individuals, they would merely need to do a class-action lawsuit against all the people working for companies like IGE.
While IGE and its brethren are indeed more powerful than each individual game company, if they all started working together for a simple problem like this, it could be handled very quickly. While it may not eliminate RMT'ing completely (underground systems will pop up eventually), it would greatly stem the tide of RMTs in any game, since they would need to use methods almost more trouble than they are worth.
I agree that there are probably several things different companies could do to help "control" the issue but it comes down to a few things
In the end, its really not worth the headache for a game to aggressively pursue the issue.
Like I said, its in the players hands. Even easy game economies are overrun with farmers and currency buyers. It doesn't matter how "easy" you make it, some will always not want to do it.
Game designers will be force to do a few things possibly.
- You say they'll adapt. I say they won't. The fact is, they have to buy a copy of whatever game they're farming just like anyone else. Ban that account (CD key or whatever) and *poof* there goes that copy. The only way to get that farmer up and running again is with another copy of the game. Yay for more money for the company running that game, and yay for another bannable account. As for safeguards ........ what safeguards? When I played WoW, there were none. I can't imagine what you even mean by "WoW safeguards".
My opinion is that it really IS worth the headache for any MMO to rid their game of farmers. That headache would be but a tiny pain if dealt with from the start, rather than the brain-crushing migraine that WoW would require to clean up. I mean look at it this way - these games are passively advocating cheating within their game by allowing farmers to thrive while doing nothing about them, and make no mistake about it - buying in-game currencies with real money is cheating. I don't care how any one player wants to excuse doing so, it is still cheating as much as using an aimbot/wallhack in a game like CS is. "Oh well I'm laggy, so it's O.K. for me to use an aimbot cuz I still suck." "Well I don't have the time to actually farm X item because I have to do Y thing IRL." It's no excuse, period. If you don't like how something works in a game, or that it might take you a certain amount of time to accomplish something, then you're in the wrong game, IMO.You are right, though. If players would stop buying currency in games, the farmers would all but go away. That doesn't mean that game companies shouldn't be responsible for enforcing their own EULA's, though. What's a player to think when they get punished for something that has little to no effect on the game itself because of a EULA violation, when these farmers are flagrantly violating the EULA by their very existance, and influence every single player of that game's experience?
- Meh, the whole "let it slide" mentality is just annoying as hell to me. The solutions that are available to send farmers packing are many, I'm sure. It's not a matter of regulating players' intentions - it's a matter of banning players who are violating the policy they agreed to before ever playing the game. There's just no excuse to let this crap go on as MMOs evolve. Hell, RMT companies get away with their junk all day long but I remember when playing RFO, a player tried to eBay their character, got found out, and their account was banned. Meanwhile, there were still plenty of farmers to be found in-game, and I'm sure powerleveling services were plenty active there as well.
Anyway, the whole thing boils down to the companies being willing to lose a few RMT subscribers to get and maintain more players. I've quit games in the past due in part to their issues with RMT, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. A player remaining content with a game has a lot to do with their satisfaction of how things like this get handled. It just boils down to who these guys value more - foreign RMT, or real players. Sadly, the choice has overwhelmingly been the former for quite some time."The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
I dont see the big deal about it. Suppose I worked my butt of and accumulated allot of gold. I dont use the gold, so I sell it for real money. I still worked for it, I didnt spend it, I sold it so someone else could spend it.
How in the world can that ruin the economy?
Basically, I see its the people that cant afford to buy gold and has to work for it, getting mad? I prefer to have someone work for me if I want to. I play the game the way I want, I pay the monthly fee and if I decide I want a certain item, I will get it.
Some people do not have the free time to spend in the game to make that kind of cash, they work for a living.
Some people make allot of money in RL. So, if they decide to pay someone for their work in game...SO WHAT.
Play the game the way you want and I will play the game the way I want. Just quit whining about it. It will not change.....EVER. People are still buying gold in UO and that game has been around since 1997!!!!
As for people not affording to buy currency, that's just a stupid thing to say. Some people might actually enjoy the satisfaction of earning what they have, whether or not you do. Again, if you don't like the way the game works in that you might have to do things you don't want to do to get what you have, then maybe that game isn't for you. What satisfaction do you get by cheating your way to the top of a game you supposedly have so little time to play?
Games are not supposed to be work. If you can't have fun enjoying the gameplay elements given to you by the game, then really, pick a new genre. This argument is so overdone it's absurd. If your fun comes at the expense of others because of your support for something such as RMT, go screw yourself
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
If it's against the EULA, which is the case for most MMOGs, then you are not entitled to play the game the way you want, by selling and buying items. Other players choose to play MMOGs because they expect a fair level playing field for sportsmanship reasons and don't enjoy the game otherwise. You are diminishing their enjoyment factor which you do not have a right to do, by selling/buying items since it is against the EULA.
It does ruin the economy also by creating deflation of items on the lower end and inflation of rare items.
Why don't you go play a Korean item shop game or Project Entropia where you are allowed to sell/buy your way with real money?
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Outside of SOE's Services it is banned, but they found a legal loophole through by selling the time they spent collecting the gold instead of the gold itself, someone really needs to patch up that loophole then the MMORPG companies can go sue crazy on their RMT asses if they try it, although the law is a very confusing thing, so who knows how long that could take? especially with all the subscription fees they get from any RMT's.
~Playing~
None - Vanguard: SoH
~Played~
WoW - Paladin 20 - Hunter 20 - Druid 30
City Of Heroes/Villians - Scrapper 30
Final Fantasy XI - Black Mage/White Mage 75
Guild Wars - Warrior/Monk 20 - Assassin/Warrior 20
Noone's saying that people should be sued for ruining others' fun. What they are saying is that people should be banned for violating the terms within the EULA.
Then you are saying that if the EULA allows gold farming and selling, everyone will be perfectly fine with it?
An opinion on the subject so strong could only be based on personal experience, and I doubt you'd advocate RMT without being a buyer yourself.
You realise of course that following that line of reasoning would also lead to conclusions such as "anyone who advocates gay rights must themselves be gay", "anyone who advocates abolishing poverty in Africa must be a poor citizen of an African country" and so on. Some of us simply care about more than just ourselves. You are trying to ban an activity which provides daily bread for many poor people, so I will speak up in their defence.
at first things were fine, until RMT started showing up.
You are perhaps assuming that gold farmers have some sort of "grace period" before hitting the new games?
As RMT moved in, these spawns became overcrowded to such a degree that going out and earning the item you wanted was beyond question
And if you only had normal players there, the situation would be different how? Normal players can be just as annoying if not even more so than farming bots, especially in a system like that. Fix the cause, not symptoms. Instances were invented precisely because this was a huge problem anyway, with or without farming bots.
Of course, RMT (and fellow players, to a very small degree) would suck up the cheaper items instantly, and the RMT would simply place the items back on the AH at extremely inflated costs.
Normal players would usually just sell the items they get from mobs for those inflated prices and hence afford anything they want anyway; if the entire game has only a few good farming spots, wouldn't the exact same problem crop up anyway as soon as total server population reaches, say, 100-200?
This meant that items didn't just disappear, but should have gained in numbers, causing a decrease in costs. Somehow, though, the opposite happens
It would be interesting to find out why it happened actually; if prices are going up, the amount of money in the economy must be increasing faster than the number of items, so there must be a hidden money source somewhere within it. It could be related to money/item sinks, endgame cash flows, or even plain old fashion duping hacks. What it means though is that if farmers are producing items rather than gold, they are actually decreasing the harmful effects of what amounts to a devastating flaw in the system rather than increasing it.
As a final note, WoW is a bad example of how RMT can affect an economy.
True, because it happens to have an economy which is not inherently flawed to begin with.
For example, many people attribute the rising prices of low level goods to gold farmers. What they don't consider are the effects of several thousand level 60 players sending hundreds or even thousands of gold to their alts and simply buying what ever they need, no matter what the cost. All that money was earned fairly, it's just that a level 60 can earn cash 10.000+ times faster than a level 1. If farmers were to farm low level goods (which doesn't make any sense btw), they would actually be countering some of that incredibly powerful inflationary force, not making it worse.
What are you 14? Calling people whiny poor people and saying "some people have to work for a living".
So which is it we're either poor or so rich we don't have to work?
Also "don't have time to grind the money" is bull crap.
The less you play the slower you level and the slower you level the slower you need the money.
Someone who playes 12 hours a day to 60 will probably have the same amount of money someone who played 3 hours a day to 60.
It nothing but being Greedy and Lazy, wanting everything now.
Why the hell do you even bother to play the game?
As for "you pay the monthly fee" read the sodding EULA, your breaking it. They have the rights to ban you.
Yea.....Yea.....Yea.... *sniff*
I see all the banning...LOL
Sure hasnt slowed down the gold farmers. Why do you care anyways how I play?
The sodding EULA, as you call it, is to make you people that complain, have something to fall back on and to make you warm and fuzzy.
BTW.......I have never bought one piece of gold with real money. I am playing the "Devils Advocate" here just to hear your views. Personally, I am not against buying gold with real money. It has never affected my gameplay....EVER.
Some of my sons friends have bought gold to get their epic mounts in WoW. How in the world does that affect you? It doesnt. It sure makes their game playing more enjoyable though.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
So I am kind of inclined to reason it is the WoW system at fault. (1) for having such huge repair costs. and (2) for it being allowable to replicable by an out of game solution.
The first point, huge repair costs, I think also add onto this some people switch talent builds as they do pvp and raiding so this also adds onto the cost.
The second point, I am aware that Everquest had a similar system but instead of losing durability of items, you lost exp. Everytime you raided, so many deaths and you would have to regain xp. Although admittedly it was probably a lot less times required than the probably number of times you need to repair in WoW. But the point is that people couldn't use an out-of-game system to rectify is like with WoW.
So, I think really WoW needs to rectify one of the points, because for 40% of people to be doing it suggests more of the problem of the system than perhaps the players.
Yes, it definetly ruins the game economy and not to talk about the atmosphare.
"What's a cocksmoker?"