In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's the perfect egalitarian solution: have soloing give the "best" rewards to aid in solo play; have group-required content give the "best" rewards for working together synergistically in a group; and have raiding give the "best" rewards for helping organize and conduct raids.
Why is that a problem? As long as you and Anophalye can agree on this one simple point, it would appear that you are in violent agreement with one another.
Ok, you have to follow the whole saga, you cannot base your judgement on a couple of posts.
What people is missing is that I am very tollerant, although I come across a bit arrogant, but that's the way express myself. The point is that I heard him, I understood his point of view, and if we were talking in general about our ideal game, I might also agree with him in some point. Everyone should have it's kind of game, so everyone will be happy. Problem is that Vanguard design is more a game which bend toward the raid than the solo, therefore you cannot come in this board whining that Vanguard should not have Raid (when you are lucky enough that there is enough solo content already)
Problem is that he can't understand why Sigil wants to put rid at all in, a game almost finished, and made by the Father of all raids Brad MCquaid (so it shouldn't surprise anyone). You cannot come here in this board starting to shot at anyone about how raid is crap and he should not be in Vanguard, when this game is made by Brad MCQuaid.
I always said to him and the others, that Vanguard is made for Core gamers, not for Casual, it's comunity oriented, therefore it focuses on group and raids, not on solo, therefore if you don't like it go and find yourself another game that hasn't got raids in it. Isn't it reasonable? Check my posts an see if I ever went on Guild Wars forum complaining about the fact that GW is too Casual oriented, and should be more hardcore. I don't do that, I respect other people preferences, and since I am tollerant I live theat game to them and I dedicate my time to a game I like which in this case is Vanguard.
The problem with him and the others is they cannot respect the fact that this game is made for Core and Riaders mainly and they spend all their time here try to convince us and Sigil that raiding is wrong and the game should be only solo and group oriented.
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000
Vanguard is a game that embrace Solo, Group and Raid in almost the same way. It offers everyone the chance to wear Elite gear without being forced to play a kind of style you don't like.
You would enforce me to raid for 20%, that is quite intolerant or racist as you like to put it. It give an "échantillon" so you taste what the good stuff is, then it told you that you can't earn it anymore in YOUR choice of activity but must do another activity.
So you show someone what the goodie are and tell them: "You have to tradeskill, Diplomacy, Solo, Group and RAID to earn more." Each part is "enforced", however a raider is also a soloer and a grouper, so you only enforce tradeskills on him and diplomacy, a grouper is also been enforced to raid.
Best grouper deserve to be a grouper, not a raider. At least on some servers! Raiding enforcement kills grouping, as you have peoples valuing raiding over grouping when they are earning group-uberness...every grouping reward have to encourage grouping, not a foreign gameplay.
My cow is still blue. And the flying sheep have machine guns.
Best groupers deserve to be groupers, not raiders. Can't get it more simpler than that, and if you can't understand that, then we have nothing to discuss. 20% of the BEST rewards are exclusively limited to raiding, and the game will create a bottleneck experience where peoples will miss these precise items...so the same mechanic as in EQ and WoW happen, just slightly less bad IF we can trust Brad, which I don't think I can do atm based on past expansions and follow up on games.
Ok I will keep it simple, i will try to exlain the point like you do with children.
Let's put it this way. I like raiding and grouping, I totally hate soloing therefore I won't be able to have my 20% of the Armor because I won't play Solo. I will be FORCED to solo to get the full armor, and I can't stand it. Don't we share the same problem, but at opposite ends? Why your position makes it more right than mine?
How do you solve this dilemma Mr " I know everything"?
Originally posted by ste2000 The problem with him and the others is they cannot respect the fact that this game is made for Core and Riaders mainly and they spend all their time here try to convince us and Sigil that raiding is wrong and the game should be only solo and group oriented.
I think this is wrong, don't you?
The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
See, a game like Star Trek Online is a raiding game, did you ever see me there? No, because they don't lie. They are honest about it. Did you see me talk in Saga of Ryzom? I praise a game that is NOT for me!
Brad, with careful thinked lies, is trying to bring GROUPERS and enforce raiding on them. I have no problem with a game that focus on any aspect, as long as they are not trying to bring FALSE lies and make peoples believe Vanguard is a game for groupers, it isn't. Brad is saying this is a game for GROUPERS, yet he built a game for raiders.
I never ask for Vanguard to be anything, but when I see LIES, or half truths, I underline how much of a poor grouping experience it will be, simply because groupers will be second-ranked players in their games. Yet, they advertise about GROUPING been the main aspect of their game, which is a half-truth, leading to a lie.
If Sigil wouldn't be lying and putting half-truth to lure player into something they will most likely despite, I wouldn't care about 1 more raiding game. Sigil is saying this is a grouping game, if they put some non-raiding servers I would agree, but in a raiding server? That would be like saying DAoC is the ultimate PvE experience pre-Gaheris! I don't see Mythic putting such lies.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000 The problem with him and the others is they cannot respect the fact that this game is made for Core and Riaders mainly and they spend all their time here try to convince us and Sigil that raiding is wrong and the game should be only solo and group oriented.
I think this is wrong, don't you?
The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
See, a game like Star Trek Online is a raiding game, did you ever see me there? No, because they don't lie. They are honest about it. Did you see me talk in Saga of Ryzom? I praise a game that is NOT for me!
Brad, with careful thinked lies, is trying to bring GROUPERS and enforce raiding on them. I have no problem with a game that focus on any aspect, as long as they are not trying to bring FALSE lies and make peoples believe Vanguard is a game for groupers, it isn't.
I never ask for Vanguard to be anything, but when I see LIES, or half truths, I underline how much of a poor grouping experience it will be, simply because groupers will be second-ranked players in their games. Yet, they advertise about GROUPING been the main aspect of their game, which is a half-truth, leading to a lie.
If Sigil wouldn't be lying and putting half-truth to lure player into something they will most likely despite, I wouldn't care about 1 more raiding game. Sigil is saying this is a grouping game, if they put some non-raiding servers I would agree, but in a raiding server? That would be like saying DAoC is the ultimate PvE experience pre-Gaheris! I don't see Mythic putting such lies.
Star Trek Online a raiding game? could you point me towards where thats stated? im not disputing you, but i havnt read that about the game in any of the info ive seen.
Originally posted by Tamalan Star Trek Online a raiding game? could you point me towards where thats stated? im not disputing you, but i havnt read that about the game in any of the info ive seen.
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
Brad is trying to convince people because it is his job to do so, as a entrepeneur and businessman. Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids. And from that information everyone can make up their mind regardless what anyone says.
The fact is that he has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Raid is there to stay, put up with it or find something else.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
Brad is trying to convince people because it is his job to do so. Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids.
He has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Actually I would guess more like 40% groups, 15% raids, 15% solo, 15% crafting, And 15% diplomacy..
But that is a full on guess, it could be 30,20,20,20,10
or 20,20,20,20,20
or..my cows are still blue, and the green flying sheep just painted their maching gun pink.
Originally posted by lordtwisted Actually I would guess more like 40% groups, 15% raids, 15% solo, 15% crafting, And 15% diplomacy.. But that is a full on guess, it could be 30,20,20,20,10 or 20,20,20,20,20 or..my cows are still blue, and the green flying sheep just painted their maching gun pink.
We are talking about Elite Items drop, if you care to read the posts............. And Brad gave those figures, it is not a guess.
Still trying to be funny? No need for punchlines, I can assure you ve been funny enough in all your other posts, no need to try harder
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Tamalan Star Trek Online a raiding game? could you point me towards where thats stated? im not disputing you, but i havnt read that about the game in any of the info ive seen.
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game?
Just because a game has some or even a little raiding type content, its incorrect to instantly label the whole game package as a raiding game.
If some people want to to raid, and progression can be made this way as a parallel to other styles, what the hell is the problem?
Vanguard seems to offer progression for most styles of players, admittedly it is group orientated, but if you are claiming the whole game is raidbased, I think you will find you are in error.
Launch of the open beta and the retail version will obviously prove one of us wrong, but these knee jerk reactions and sweeping claims are just getting ridiculous.
You obviously have an axe to grind with Sigil and in my opinon its wrong of you to force this upon others without any tangible evidence.
Did Brad back his car over your dog or something? :P
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
Brad is trying to convince people because it is his job to do so, as a entrepeneur and businessman. Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids. And from that information everyone can make up their mind regardless what anyone says.
The fact is that he has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Raid is there to stay, put up with it or find something else.
Have no fear, atm I have no intend to play the game. However, this is an OPEN forum to debate. And Brad is trying to convince peoples that his game will be a good grouping experience, knowing full well that groupers will be turn away from groups because they didn't earn some raiding tools, or that they will fail some encounter because they doesn't have the raiding gear...
Honest? You are kidding me. See, you are seeing a clear case of what LAWFUL EVIL mean in classic D&D. Brad attitude is Lawfull evil...he is not lying per say, but he give half truth and manage it to lead to a false assumption, which is even worser than a lie. See, someone might dismiss 20% raid as secondary, and this is Brad intent, that players dismiss the 20% as something secondary, unimportant....but we all know how this 20% is VERY important and will screw peoples not getting it...and this 20% is exponential, a player that has 80% of the stats of another player, grouping with another at 80%...we have a duo that is 64%, not 80% of a duo of raider...in a full group of 6 players at 80% we have about 26% of the potential of a group of raiders...Brad knows all that...yet...he lead peoples to believe otherwise, to think that 20% is something to be dismissed as secondary...but it isn't, the game is focused heavily about that 20%, so raiding will be enforced on peoples who are supposed to be groupers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Tamalan Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Tamalan Star Trek Online a raiding game? could you point me towards where thats stated? im not disputing you, but i havnt read that about the game in any of the info ive seen.
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game?
Yes he does, even a group of 2 is considered a raid. He basically wants Diablo but without the meeting rooms. Good luck with it Anofalye, and tell me when you find one, so i can come to the forum and piss everybody off on how the game should have raid in it.
Honest? You are kidding me. See, you are seeing a clear case of what LAWFUL EVIL mean in classic D&D. Brad attitude is Lawfull evil...he is not lying per say, but he give half truth and manage it to lead to a false assumption, which is even worser than a lie.
No it is called marketing, that's what SOE, Microsoft, Kraft, an Ford do all the time. They hide what they don't want the customer to know and they emphacise what people want to hear. This is no by any means antything rare. Everyone with a brain should be able to make their own choices with the official information that can be gathered all around the web.
And for Vanguard there are enough information to make up your mind without listen to what Brad says.
Originally posted by Tamalan So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game? Just because a game has some or even a little raiding type content, its incorrect to instantly label the whole game package as a raiding game.
If some people want to to raid, and progression can be made this way as a parallel to other styles, what the hell is the problem? Vanguard seems to offer progression for most styles of players, admittedly it is group orientated, but if you are claiming the whole game is raidbased, I think you will find you are in error.
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
See, peoples can raid, PvP or do whatever gameplays please them, as long as it has NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. See, if raiding give the SAME rewards, I will raise an eyebrow and check with a complete lack of trust, yet, if it prove to be true, I will have no troubles with this. But when RAIDING gives rewards that make you a better groupers, this is WRONG and enforcing a foreign gameplay at the expense of grouping.
I will not raid myself, I just want to know that EVERY tools for grouping is within grouping reach, that no other way give a better access to them, even less an exclusive access. And Brad keeps saying that his game is for groupers. In his hundreds of thousands of posts, he always put grouping forward as the main focus of the game, yet, 20% of the reward are UNAVAILABE to groupers, which by definition are not raiders but are also soloers (every grouper enjoy more or less solo, while by default they are not raiders). Now, all the problematic is that Brad keeps saying his game is for groupers...while in fact, he shaft groupers. Enforced raiding kills grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by lordtwisted Actually I would guess more like 40% groups, 15% raids, 15% solo, 15% crafting, And 15% diplomacy.. But that is a full on guess, it could be 30,20,20,20,10 or 20,20,20,20,20 or..my cows are still blue, and the green flying sheep just painted their maching gun pink.
We are talking about Elite Items drop, if you care to read the posts............. And Brad gave those figures, it is not a guess.
Still trying to be funny? No need for punchlines, I can assure you ve been funny enough in all your other posts, no need to try harder
Actually I haven't seen your numbers anywhere, other then where I posted them a while back. I have not seen Brad give anything that showed numbers period.
But I have seen a post that said, Crafters will have rare oppertunities to craft a rare and exotic, powerful item <I took that as elite weapons, armor>
I have also seen Brad say there are some very powerful items you can only get by following the story lines in the Diplomacy spheres.
So I think mob drops won't be the only Elite items, I thin crafting and diplomact spheres will also produce elite weapons.
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard. So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye
Honest? You are kidding me. See, you are seeing a clear case of what LAWFUL EVIL mean in classic D&D. Brad attitude is Lawfull evil...he is not lying per say, but he give half truth and manage it to lead to a false assumption, which is even worser than a lie.
No it is called marketing, that's what SOE, Microsoft, Kraft, an Ford do all the time. They hide what they don't want the customer to know and they emphacise what people want to hear. This is no by any means antything rare. Everyone with a brain should be able to make their own choices with the official information that can be gathered all around the web.
And for Vanguard there are enough information to make up your mind without listen what Brad says.
It is more than marketing, it is leading to a lie, a half truth. See, a good marketing doesn't lead you to believe false assumptions, it focus on positive only, not leading to lies. Granted that SoE does what you say, but Kraft and Ford never put such bad stuff forward as far as I can tell, and many leading companies don't put you to make false assumptions. For Microsoft, I am unsure...I think you are right...but I don't have any proof that come to mind.
See, Coke, despite all it evil, when they advertise here, I never start believing wrong stuff because of what they told me. Subway is a company that make such marketing about leading the customers in a false knowledge. Not every company making marketing lead you to believe lies. McDonald, I never realize I have a false assumption because of their publicity and marketing. See, the point is, making sure the customer doesn't make a false assumption because of an half-truth is also part of the marketing...and on this aspect, SoE and Sigil are failing, customers make a LOT of false assumptions.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by Tamalan So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game? Just because a game has some or even a little raiding type content, its incorrect to instantly label the whole game package as a raiding game.
If some people want to to raid, and progression can be made this way as a parallel to other styles, what the hell is the problem? Vanguard seems to offer progression for most styles of players, admittedly it is group orientated, but if you are claiming the whole game is raidbased, I think you will find you are in error.
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
See, peoples can raid, PvP or do whatever gameplays please them, as long as it has NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. See, if raiding give the SAME rewards, I will raise an eyebrow and check with a complete lack of trust, yet, if it prove to be true, I will have no troubles with this. But when RAIDING gives rewards that make you a better groupers, this is WRONG and enforcing a foreign gameplay at the expense of grouping.
I will not raid myself, I just want to know that EVERY tools for grouping is within grouping reach, that no other way give a better access to them, even less an exclusive access. And Brad keeps saying that his game is for groupers. In his hundreds of thousands of posts, he always put grouping forward as the main focus of the game, yet, 20% of the reward are UNAVAILABE to groupers, which by definition are not raiders but are also soloers (every grouper enjoy more or less solo, while by default they are not raiders). Now, all the problematic is that Brad keeps saying his game is for groupers...while in fact, he shaft groupers. Enforced raiding kills grouping.
So if a person gets a piece of armor better the your average grouper giveing him an advantage in groups, but he got it from a quest? Is that going to irk you too?
If we are both level 50, but you find a group wants me more then you, because I crafted a sword that puts your mob drop sword to shame, are you going to be mad too?
What if a group kicks you out to invite me, because I finished out the diplomacy sphere and got a full set of "Lord Defender" armor that gives me elite skill boost?
All equipment is completely fictional, any resemblence to any real person place or thing is merely a coinicidense.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard. So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by lordtwisted So I think mob drops won't be the only Elite items, I thin crafting and diplomact spheres will also produce elite weapons.
Yes they do............. unfortunately we weren't talking about the Diplomatic and Crafting sphere.
Again off topic, just for the sake of cheap fun Not a good way to hold a discussion
So if a person gets a piece of armor better the your average grouper giveing him an advantage in groups, but he got it from a quest? Is that going to irk you too? If we are both level 50, but you find a group wants me more then you, because I crafted a sword that puts your mob drop sword to shame, are you going to be mad too? What if a group kicks you out to invite me, because I finished out the diplomacy sphere and got a full set of "Lord Defender" armor that gives me elite skill boost? All equipment is completely fictional, any resemblence to any real person place or thing is merely a coinicidense.
For the quest, if it is a grouping quest I see no problem with it.
For crafting, I am ready to put with that evil...but what you say is basically right, however, I am ready to cope with tradeskills, even if there should be no tradeskills affecting grouping IMO. But yes, tradeskills is, in theory, just as wrong as raiding...yet...it is something that is a lot less nasty and easy to bear than raiding, so if it is a necessary evil, let's be it. DDO made many mistakes, but they did understand this point quite well. Tradeskills belong to SIMs and the like IMO. Enforcing tradeskills on groupers is a bad idea, but it is a bad idea I can deal with...which remind me the meditating book and the boats honestly.
Diplomacy, see crafting.
Raiding, sorry, but I won't bear such a despictable gameplay. There is a fine line between boring and despictable, raiding cross that line.
Sooo as long as raiding have no impact on grouping, I can't care less, the day it gave 1 HP, I ask for it removal just as if it was PvP. In fact, PvP is less offensive, I know the 10 years old ganker is enjoying killing me at least...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard. So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void. See you are arrogant and one sided as usual. And that's your problem, you assume things that you are not sure off.
I like raiding and I like grouping, but I totally dislike soloing in MMORPG. In all MMORPG I play, I always play with others.
When I feel like solo, you know what I do? I play Oblivions or games like this, they are much better solo games trust me. And that's what you should do as well, instead of wasting your time with faulted hypothesys.
Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by ste2000 Originally posted by Anofalye
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard. So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void. See you are arrogant and one sided as usual. And that's your problem, you assume things that you are not sure off.
I like raiding and I like grouping, but I totally dislike soloing in MMORPG. In all MMORPG I play, I alway play with others.
When I feel like solo, you know what I do? I play Oblivions or games like this, they are much better solo games trust me. And that's what you should do as well, instead iof wasting your times with faulted hypothesys.
See, you enjoy Oblivion, so soloing isn't something you NEVER do. It is something you do, here or there, in some precise situation. If someone put soloing in a MMO, it is something you are familiar to and since you play Oblivion, something you enjoy in the right situation.
Raiding is something I NEVER do. And they keep enforcing it. Sorry, but I don't raid in any other game, I despite big crowds of peoples at one activity, too much chaos. Yet, for some reason, to you it is a similar compromise then enforcing solo on you, you have no measure of quantities and are self absorb. Solo enforcement on you is NOTHING close as raiding enforcement on any average grouper. You solo all the time in others games after all.
And see, you are focusing on insulting me as usual. I don't remember insulting you ever before you initially insult me. See, this is part of how you behave in society and part of why I don't want to share the same community as you...and part of why I don't want to raid.
I don't know what your problem with solo is, because I am defending GROUPING. I don't care much about solo, I enjoy it a little, not much. Yet, you always bring it back forth. See, YOU are talking about solo...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ah i see, this is all about gear... I played EQ for 4 years and EQ2 for a year and never once got turned down by a group for the gear i had. I never had the best stuff because i didnt have the time or the inclanation to go raiding. Sure some wise arse might make a comment on 'my crappy armour', but they soon shut up when they realised i knew my class (Ranger) and saved their asses several times by a well placed snare or root.
Every game on the MMO market does/will have a minority of blinkered players who make choices based upon equipment alone. This is their problem, not mine.
If you play a game purely to get the 'best of the best', you are missing the entire point of participating in an MMORPG.
My only personal gripe about Vanguard is the likelyhood i will have to dig deep to update my creaky old machine to run it
Originally posted by Tamalan If you play a game purely to get the 'best of the best', you are missing the entire point of participating in an MMORPG.
Why do you have to bring such silly logic forward to change me and why I am playing a game? Why don't I just go play THERE since we are started and just forget about these ACHIEVEMENTS-driven game, after all, I would be much better in THERE.
For me, working toward been the BEST groupers is EXTREMELY important, and I do believe it is VERY important to many players, including all these uber-guilds. See, how often do you see a raider retire and then have snarky comments, such as...I usually don,t group peoples who...bla bla bla. The reward matter as much as the journey. Not more, not less. If the reward isn't there, there is no point to undertake the journey. If you are a "better person" then me, good for you, but don't look down on me for that! I CARE about how someone improve his character group-wise.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's the perfect egalitarian solution: have soloing give the "best" rewards to aid in solo play; have group-required content give the "best" rewards for working together synergistically in a group; and have raiding give the "best" rewards for helping organize and conduct raids.
Why is that a problem? As long as you and Anophalye can agree on this one simple point, it would appear that you are in violent agreement with one another.
Ok, you have to follow the whole saga, you cannot base your judgement on a couple of posts.
What people is missing is that I am very tollerant, although I come across a bit arrogant, but that's the way express myself.
The point is that I heard him, I understood his point of view, and if we were talking in general about our ideal game, I might also agree with him in some point.
Everyone should have it's kind of game, so everyone will be happy.
Problem is that Vanguard design is more a game which bend toward the raid than the solo, therefore you cannot come in this board whining that Vanguard should not have Raid (when you are lucky enough that there is enough solo content already)
Problem is that he can't understand why Sigil wants to put rid at all in, a game almost finished, and made by the Father of all raids Brad MCquaid (so it shouldn't surprise anyone).
You cannot come here in this board starting to shot at anyone about how raid is crap and he should not be in Vanguard, when this game is made by Brad MCQuaid.
I always said to him and the others, that Vanguard is made for Core gamers, not for Casual, it's comunity oriented, therefore it focuses on group and raids, not on solo, therefore if you don't like it go and find yourself another game that hasn't got raids in it.
Isn't it reasonable?
Check my posts an see if I ever went on Guild Wars forum complaining about the fact that GW is too Casual oriented, and should be more hardcore.
I don't do that, I respect other people preferences, and since I am tollerant I live theat game to them and I dedicate my time to a game I like which in this case is Vanguard.
The problem with him and the others is they cannot respect the fact that this game is made for Core and Riaders mainly and they spend all their time here try to convince us and Sigil that raiding is wrong and the game should be only solo and group oriented.
I think this is wrong, don't you?
You would enforce me to raid for 20%, that is quite intolerant or racist as you like to put it. It give an "échantillon" so you taste what the good stuff is, then it told you that you can't earn it anymore in YOUR choice of activity but must do another activity.
So you show someone what the goodie are and tell them: "You have to tradeskill, Diplomacy, Solo, Group and RAID to earn more." Each part is "enforced", however a raider is also a soloer and a grouper, so you only enforce tradeskills on him and diplomacy, a grouper is also been enforced to raid.
Best grouper deserve to be a grouper, not a raider. At least on some servers! Raiding enforcement kills grouping, as you have peoples valuing raiding over grouping when they are earning group-uberness...every grouping reward have to encourage grouping, not a foreign gameplay.
My cow is still blue. And the flying sheep have machine guns.
Not so nice guy!
Ok I will keep it simple, i will try to exlain the point like you do with children.
Let's put it this way.
I like raiding and grouping, I totally hate soloing therefore I won't be able to have my 20% of the Armor because I won't play Solo.
I will be FORCED to solo to get the full armor, and I can't stand it.
Don't we share the same problem, but at opposite ends?
Why your position makes it more right than mine?
How do you solve this dilemma Mr " I know everything"?
The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
See, a game like Star Trek Online is a raiding game, did you ever see me there? No, because they don't lie. They are honest about it. Did you see me talk in Saga of Ryzom? I praise a game that is NOT for me!
Brad, with careful thinked lies, is trying to bring GROUPERS and enforce raiding on them. I have no problem with a game that focus on any aspect, as long as they are not trying to bring FALSE lies and make peoples believe Vanguard is a game for groupers, it isn't. Brad is saying this is a game for GROUPERS, yet he built a game for raiders.
I never ask for Vanguard to be anything, but when I see LIES, or half truths, I underline how much of a poor grouping experience it will be, simply because groupers will be second-ranked players in their games. Yet, they advertise about GROUPING been the main aspect of their game, which is a half-truth, leading to a lie.
If Sigil wouldn't be lying and putting half-truth to lure player into something they will most likely despite, I wouldn't care about 1 more raiding game. Sigil is saying this is a grouping game, if they put some non-raiding servers I would agree, but in a raiding server? That would be like saying DAoC is the ultimate PvE experience pre-Gaheris! I don't see Mythic putting such lies.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
The problem is that Brad is trying to convince peoples that this game is mostly build for groupers. With a non-raiding server I would agree, but in the current form, it is a LIE where he enforce raiding.
See, a game like Star Trek Online is a raiding game, did you ever see me there? No, because they don't lie. They are honest about it. Did you see me talk in Saga of Ryzom? I praise a game that is NOT for me!
Brad, with careful thinked lies, is trying to bring GROUPERS and enforce raiding on them. I have no problem with a game that focus on any aspect, as long as they are not trying to bring FALSE lies and make peoples believe Vanguard is a game for groupers, it isn't.
I never ask for Vanguard to be anything, but when I see LIES, or half truths, I underline how much of a poor grouping experience it will be, simply because groupers will be second-ranked players in their games. Yet, they advertise about GROUPING been the main aspect of their game, which is a half-truth, leading to a lie.
If Sigil wouldn't be lying and putting half-truth to lure player into something they will most likely despite, I wouldn't care about 1 more raiding game. Sigil is saying this is a grouping game, if they put some non-raiding servers I would agree, but in a raiding server? That would be like saying DAoC is the ultimate PvE experience pre-Gaheris! I don't see Mythic putting such lies.
Star Trek Online a raiding game? could you point me towards where thats stated? im not disputing you, but i havnt read that about the game in any of the info ive seen.
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids.
And from that information everyone can make up their mind regardless what anyone says.
The fact is that he has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Raid is there to stay, put up with it or find something else.
Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids.
He has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Actually I would guess more like 40% groups, 15% raids, 15% solo, 15% crafting, And 15% diplomacy..
But that is a full on guess, it could be 30,20,20,20,10
or 20,20,20,20,20
or..my cows are still blue, and the green flying sheep just painted their maching gun pink.
Not so nice guy!
And Brad gave those figures, it is not a guess.
Still trying to be funny?
No need for punchlines, I can assure you ve been funny enough in all your other posts, no need to try harder
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game?
Just because a game has some or even a little raiding type content, its incorrect to instantly label the whole game package as a raiding game.
If some people want to to raid, and progression can be made this way as a parallel to other styles, what the hell is the problem?
Vanguard seems to offer progression for most styles of players, admittedly it is group orientated, but if you are claiming the whole game is raidbased, I think you will find you are in error.
Launch of the open beta and the retail version will obviously prove one of us wrong, but these knee jerk reactions and sweeping claims are just getting ridiculous.
You obviously have an axe to grind with Sigil and in my opinon its wrong of you to force this upon others without any tangible evidence.
Did Brad back his car over your dog or something? :P
Brad also said the the Elite Armor will drop 20% from solo, 60% from group and 20% from raids.
And from that information everyone can make up their mind regardless what anyone says.
The fact is that he has been really frikking honest about it. Stop inventing stuff.
Raid is there to stay, put up with it or find something else.
Have no fear, atm I have no intend to play the game. However, this is an OPEN forum to debate. And Brad is trying to convince peoples that his game will be a good grouping experience, knowing full well that groupers will be turn away from groups because they didn't earn some raiding tools, or that they will fail some encounter because they doesn't have the raiding gear...
Honest? You are kidding me. See, you are seeing a clear case of what LAWFUL EVIL mean in classic D&D. Brad attitude is Lawfull evil...he is not lying per say, but he give half truth and manage it to lead to a false assumption, which is even worser than a lie. See, someone might dismiss 20% raid as secondary, and this is Brad intent, that players dismiss the 20% as something secondary, unimportant....but we all know how this 20% is VERY important and will screw peoples not getting it...and this 20% is exponential, a player that has 80% of the stats of another player, grouping with another at 80%...we have a duo that is 64%, not 80% of a duo of raider...in a full group of 6 players at 80% we have about 26% of the potential of a group of raiders...Brad knows all that...yet...he lead peoples to believe otherwise, to think that 20% is something to be dismissed as secondary...but it isn't, the game is focused heavily about that 20%, so raiding will be enforced on peoples who are supposed to be groupers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I don't remember where exactly, but from memories, it is when they talk about maneuvering capital ships and having a crew running these starships...and joining other ships...
It was quite direct and straightforward. Maybe they change since, I have no idea.
So if a game has any element at all of players above a standard group of say 6 getting together, you label it a raiding game?
Yes he does, even a group of 2 is considered a raid.
He basically wants Diablo but without the meeting rooms.
Good luck with it Anofalye, and tell me when you find one, so i can come to the forum and piss everybody off on how the game should have raid in it.
They hide what they don't want the customer to know and they emphacise what people want to hear.
This is no by any means antything rare.
Everyone with a brain should be able to make their own choices with the official information that can be gathered all around the web.
And for Vanguard there are enough information to make up your mind without listen to what Brad says.
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
See, peoples can raid, PvP or do whatever gameplays please them, as long as it has NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. See, if raiding give the SAME rewards, I will raise an eyebrow and check with a complete lack of trust, yet, if it prove to be true, I will have no troubles with this. But when RAIDING gives rewards that make you a better groupers, this is WRONG and enforcing a foreign gameplay at the expense of grouping.
I will not raid myself, I just want to know that EVERY tools for grouping is within grouping reach, that no other way give a better access to them, even less an exclusive access. And Brad keeps saying that his game is for groupers. In his hundreds of thousands of posts, he always put grouping forward as the main focus of the game, yet, 20% of the reward are UNAVAILABE to groupers, which by definition are not raiders but are also soloers (every grouper enjoy more or less solo, while by default they are not raiders). Now, all the problematic is that Brad keeps saying his game is for groupers...while in fact, he shaft groupers. Enforced raiding kills grouping.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
And Brad gave those figures, it is not a guess.
Still trying to be funny?
No need for punchlines, I can assure you ve been funny enough in all your other posts, no need to try harder
Actually I haven't seen your numbers anywhere, other then where I posted them a while back. I have not seen Brad give anything that showed numbers period.
But I have seen a post that said, Crafters will have rare oppertunities to craft a rare and exotic, powerful item <I took that as elite weapons, armor>
I have also seen Brad say there are some very powerful items you can only get by following the story lines in the Diplomacy spheres.
So I think mob drops won't be the only Elite items, I thin crafting and diplomact spheres will also produce elite weapons.
...Milking the blue cow
Not so nice guy!
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard.
So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
They hide what they don't want the customer to know and they emphacise what people want to hear.
This is no by any means antything rare.
Everyone with a brain should be able to make their own choices with the official information that can be gathered all around the web.
And for Vanguard there are enough information to make up your mind without listen what Brad says.
It is more than marketing, it is leading to a lie, a half truth. See, a good marketing doesn't lead you to believe false assumptions, it focus on positive only, not leading to lies. Granted that SoE does what you say, but Kraft and Ford never put such bad stuff forward as far as I can tell, and many leading companies don't put you to make false assumptions. For Microsoft, I am unsure...I think you are right...but I don't have any proof that come to mind.
See, Coke, despite all it evil, when they advertise here, I never start believing wrong stuff because of what they told me. Subway is a company that make such marketing about leading the customers in a false knowledge. Not every company making marketing lead you to believe lies. McDonald, I never realize I have a false assumption because of their publicity and marketing. See, the point is, making sure the customer doesn't make a false assumption because of an half-truth is also part of the marketing...and on this aspect, SoE and Sigil are failing, customers make a LOT of false assumptions.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
See, peoples can raid, PvP or do whatever gameplays please them, as long as it has NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. See, if raiding give the SAME rewards, I will raise an eyebrow and check with a complete lack of trust, yet, if it prove to be true, I will have no troubles with this. But when RAIDING gives rewards that make you a better groupers, this is WRONG and enforcing a foreign gameplay at the expense of grouping.
I will not raid myself, I just want to know that EVERY tools for grouping is within grouping reach, that no other way give a better access to them, even less an exclusive access. And Brad keeps saying that his game is for groupers. In his hundreds of thousands of posts, he always put grouping forward as the main focus of the game, yet, 20% of the reward are UNAVAILABE to groupers, which by definition are not raiders but are also soloers (every grouper enjoy more or less solo, while by default they are not raiders). Now, all the problematic is that Brad keeps saying his game is for groupers...while in fact, he shaft groupers. Enforced raiding kills grouping.
So if a person gets a piece of armor better the your average grouper giveing him an advantage in groups, but he got it from a quest? Is that going to irk you too?
If we are both level 50, but you find a group wants me more then you, because I crafted a sword that puts your mob drop sword to shame, are you going to be mad too?
What if a group kicks you out to invite me, because I finished out the diplomacy sphere and got a full set of "Lord Defender" armor that gives me elite skill boost?
All equipment is completely fictional, any resemblence to any real person place or thing is merely a coinicidense.
Not so nice guy!
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard.
So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Again off topic, just for the sake of cheap fun
Not a good way to hold a discussion
For the quest, if it is a grouping quest I see no problem with it.
For crafting, I am ready to put with that evil...but what you say is basically right, however, I am ready to cope with tradeskills, even if there should be no tradeskills affecting grouping IMO. But yes, tradeskills is, in theory, just as wrong as raiding...yet...it is something that is a lot less nasty and easy to bear than raiding, so if it is a necessary evil, let's be it. DDO made many mistakes, but they did understand this point quite well. Tradeskills belong to SIMs and the like IMO. Enforcing tradeskills on groupers is a bad idea, but it is a bad idea I can deal with...which remind me the meditating book and the boats honestly.
Diplomacy, see crafting.
Raiding, sorry, but I won't bear such a despictable gameplay. There is a fine line between boring and despictable, raiding cross that line.
Sooo as long as raiding have no impact on grouping, I can't care less, the day it gave 1 HP, I ask for it removal just as if it was PvP. In fact, PvP is less offensive, I know the 10 years old ganker is enjoying killing me at least...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard.
So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void.
See you are arrogant and one sided as usual.
And that's your problem, you assume things that you are not sure off.
I like raiding and I like grouping, but I totally dislike soloing in MMORPG.
In all MMORPG I play, I always play with others.
When I feel like solo, you know what I do?
I play Oblivions or games like this, they are much better solo games trust me.
And that's what you should do as well, instead of wasting your time with faulted hypothesys.
I have no problem with a raiding evolution, as long as it have NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on grouping. In this case, 20% of the best stuff is restricted to raiding, at the expense of grouping. This is indeed extremely negative and of extreme consequences.
Soloing and grouping has a negative impact on Raiding, therefore they shouldn't be on Vanguard.
So who is right?
See you are always one sided and don't put yourself in other peole shoes, and that's why your arguments are always redundant.
You are wrong, every raiders also enjoy grouping and soloing, your example is void.
See you are arrogant and one sided as usual.
And that's your problem, you assume things that you are not sure off.
I like raiding and I like grouping, but I totally dislike soloing in MMORPG.
In all MMORPG I play, I alway play with others.
When I feel like solo, you know what I do?
I play Oblivions or games like this, they are much better solo games trust me.
And that's what you should do as well, instead iof wasting your times with faulted hypothesys.
See, you enjoy Oblivion, so soloing isn't something you NEVER do. It is something you do, here or there, in some precise situation. If someone put soloing in a MMO, it is something you are familiar to and since you play Oblivion, something you enjoy in the right situation.
Raiding is something I NEVER do. And they keep enforcing it. Sorry, but I don't raid in any other game, I despite big crowds of peoples at one activity, too much chaos. Yet, for some reason, to you it is a similar compromise then enforcing solo on you, you have no measure of quantities and are self absorb. Solo enforcement on you is NOTHING close as raiding enforcement on any average grouper. You solo all the time in others games after all.
And see, you are focusing on insulting me as usual. I don't remember insulting you ever before you initially insult me. See, this is part of how you behave in society and part of why I don't want to share the same community as you...and part of why I don't want to raid.
I don't know what your problem with solo is, because I am defending GROUPING. I don't care much about solo, I enjoy it a little, not much. Yet, you always bring it back forth. See, YOU are talking about solo...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Ah i see, this is all about gear... I played EQ for 4 years and EQ2 for a year and never once got turned down by a group for the gear i had. I never had the best stuff because i didnt have the time or the inclanation to go raiding. Sure some wise arse might make a comment on 'my crappy armour', but they soon shut up when they realised i knew my class (Ranger) and saved their asses several times by a well placed snare or root.
Every game on the MMO market does/will have a minority of blinkered players who make choices based upon equipment alone. This is their problem, not mine.
If you play a game purely to get the 'best of the best', you are missing the entire point of participating in an MMORPG.
My only personal gripe about Vanguard is the likelyhood i will have to dig deep to update my creaky old machine to run it
/ramble off
Tam
For me, working toward been the BEST groupers is EXTREMELY important, and I do believe it is VERY important to many players, including all these uber-guilds. See, how often do you see a raider retire and then have snarky comments, such as...I usually don,t group peoples who...bla bla bla. The reward matter as much as the journey. Not more, not less. If the reward isn't there, there is no point to undertake the journey. If you are a "better person" then me, good for you, but don't look down on me for that! I CARE about how someone improve his character group-wise.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren