PvE: If you win, it mean you win and maybe a friend if you help them in return with a part of what you just earn.
PvE: You fight when you want, you are never attacked(or almost) when you are not actually hunting for fight.
PvP: You are attacked by someone because he just feel like it, or you are to close to him, or any reason he judge fine.
PvE: You mostly avoid all unfair fights by staying away from them.
PvP: You cant avoid some fights, and sometimes, you are way behind in gear/levels.
PvE is great for friendly competition and cooperation, it include a lot of rewards and congratulations(go to a PvE game server, the griefing is completely drawned under the Gratz, congratz, woot and such topics)
PvP is great for pure raw competition and it include a lot of griefing (just go to Lin2 boards or any PvP oriented game).
Dont read me wrong, PvP have it place, it just dont have it place everywhere in the MMORPG, it need zones like DAoC but where you only work on PvP stuff, nothing for the carebears players to even venture in those zones. The best *grouping* member outside of those PvP zones need to have earn his stuff out of the PvP zones, no incitation to go PvP but the pure raw desire to PvP itself.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by TheThriller Is it me but do i find the struggleing tie between Beta Rulz and I Could Care Less hilarious. I mean i voted for i could carelss because i could do just that...care less. But why is it people feel that PvP is a necassity. And have you noticed that nearly all PvPers are just dicks wanting to be an even bigger dick in the virtual world? They run about killing others laughing about all their victory...most hilarious though is when them thereselves are killed and they throw a humongous fit............................... To conclude this post, the world is full of dicks and assholes...
Wow.....how mature.... Sounds like you had a bad childhood.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Anofalye PvP: If you win, it mean someone lose. PvE: If you win, it mean you win and maybe a friend if you help them in return with a part of what you just earn.
PvE: You fight when you want, you are never attacked(or almost) when you are not actually hunting for fight. PvP: You are attacked by someone because he just feel like it, or you are to close to him, or any reason he judge fine.
PvE: You mostly avoid all unfair fights by staying away from them. PvP: You cant avoid some fights, and sometimes, you are way behind in gear/levels.
PvE is great for friendly competition and cooperation, it include a lot of rewards and congratulations(go to a PvE game server, the griefing is completely drawned under the Gratz, congratz, woot and such topics) PvP is great for pure raw competition and it include a lot of griefing (just go to Lin2 boards or any PvP oriented game).
Dont read me wrong, PvP have it place, it just dont have it place everywhere in the MMORPG, it need zones like DAoC but where you only work on PvP stuff, nothing for the carebears players to even venture in those zones. The best *grouping* member outside of those PvP zones need to have earn his stuff out of the PvP zones, no incitation to go PvP but the pure raw desire to PvP itself.- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
I'd consider the griefing in a PvE game a lot worse then in a PvP game. Because in a PvE game, they can steal, KS, or train you, and then just laugh, and hide behind that veil of you cant attack me, its coded in the game. They can grief you a lot worse, and you cant do one darn thing back.
As for zones for PvP, thats only good for carebears, if you think PvPers want a PvP system like that, you'd be mistaken.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by TheThriller Is it me but do i find the struggleing tie between Beta Rulz and I Could Care Less hilarious. I mean i voted for i could carelss because i could do just that...care less. But why is it people feel that PvP is a necassity. And have you noticed that nearly all PvPers are just dicks wanting to be an even bigger dick in the virtual world? They run about killing others laughing about all their victory...most hilarious though is when them thereselves are killed and they throw a humongous fit............................... To conclude this post, the world is full of dicks and assholes...
Wow.....how mature.... Sounds like you had a bad childhood.
I'm sorry that I even posted this thread in the first place. I should have known that this would turn into a flame war due to the controversial subject. I merely wanted to seperate fact from opinion....Fact: PvP exists in some if not most mmorpg games up to this point...Opinion: I love, like, don't care, hate, etc...etc...etc.. PvP....Sorry all for this flame war...Xaldor
Originally posted by JohnnyC just seems sad to me that probably 99% of people who hate pvp only hate it because they were unsuccessful at it and it flawed their game play.. seems a petty reason to debate it out of MMORPG's they're meant to be tough.. live with it
This is the typical flawed pvper logic. I personally don't find pvp to be that much of a challenge and even when it is challenging I don't find it especially fun.
I have participated in pvp in some online shooters, DAoC, Shadowbane, and testing Lineage 2 and I would say I have won 70% or more of the time. Winning equaling my surviving and those I am fighting being killed. That in my eyes makes me fairly successful at pvp, yet I didn't experience the blissful magical joy that all of these "pvp rules and nothing else matters!" types seem to think I should.
Sure I enjoyed parts of it but I can unequivocally say I have derived more joy and on a much more consistent basis by working together with people in a pve environment.
Pvp tends to do one thing to mmorpgs when it is included, it destroys them. No, I am not saying that the game is not financially successful or unpopular because it includes pvp. The problem is pvp basically removes all rpg from the mix and leaves a different form of Quake or Counter Strike.
Here are the things that contribute to that in my mind.
* PvP attracts a certain crowd, one where most players have call signs rather then names, ick! I see this every time I log into the Lineage 2 beta (don't get me wrong, I love this game though it would be even better if the pvp were limited to rvr clanwar imo). Names like Falcon1023, Griefmaster, L33tPK3r, LiquidXtacy and such just don't fit in a fantasy rpg. These players are simply not there to play an rpg. They are there for their fantasy version of a Quake fix.
* Developers have limited time and resources when designing these massive mmorpgs. An element like pvp is not trivial. It requires a great deal of balancing and content specific to that play style. In concentrating on the pvp elements the rpg and world development almost universally suffers as the resources and focus are diverted. Also many rpg elements are forcefully removed to allow for smoother pvp content.
* PvP at its core is often anti rpg. Other then race wars or realm wars, there are very limited times when pvp actually makes any sense in a roleplaying environment. Of course if your roleplaying a prison society or some totally chaotic universe where mankind is killing itself off (which most mmorpgs are not in this setting) this may make sense but thats about it.
I will use Shadowbane as an example. The races from that game have a great backstory with lots of history and supposed factions and feelings toward other races. Unfortunately none of that matters in the game whatsoever because when it comes to pvp the players will never follow it. Its not uncommon to see two players of races that hate each other fighting together to pk a third character from a race neither of them has any racial or political problem with.
* PvP players and rpg players often want different things from their games. When trying to combine rpg and pvp in a mmorpg the developers have to lean one way or the other or make difficult compromises in regards to the prospective players desires. This tends to leave both crowds feeling like the developers went down the wrong path.
I have no problem with pvp overall, in fact I love it in some types of games, I just don't want it in my mmorpgs. That being said, I understand how some people really enjoy pvp and want massive multiplayer fantasy versions of Quake to play. The answer really is simple, make both. MMORPGS for the rpg fans and MMOFPVP (massively multiplayer online pvp fantasy) for the pvp crowd.
Creating separate games allows the developers to focus on what the players of their type of game want to see and create compelling reasons to play in an environment the player wants to be in.
I'd consider the griefing in a PvE game a lot worse then in a PvP game. Because in a PvE game, they can steal, KS, or train you, and then just laugh, and hide behind that veil of you cant attack me, its coded in the game. They can grief you a lot worse, and you cant do one darn thing back. As for zones for PvP, thats only good for carebears, if you think PvPers want a PvP system like that, you'd be mistaken.
Wow, if you find train, KS or steal *HARD* to bear, you are definitely not a PvP player, I mean, those are so minor details and only a minority does it, and they all tend to love PvP in the first place.
All the folks I know that train willingly are indeed players that play PvP and try to twist the non-PvP in something close to PvP.
I rather have to deal with *rudeplayer03* trains then with him attacking me. I wish I can avoid both, but of 2 evils, I pick the lesser.
*shrug*
Then PvP like current EQ is the only solution if you need the best tools from all the game in the PvP zones, it dont work.
Carebear would not accept, no matter how hard you try to change that, to be PK when they are just working on their toon. Be it zones for PvP that bring only PvP uberness or another server, I dont mind at all, I dont want them to attack me.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
PvP: If you win, it mean someone lose.
PvE: If you win, it mean you win and maybe a friend if you help them in return with a part of what you just earn.
PvE: You fight when you want, you are never attacked(or almost) when you are not actually hunting for fight.
PvP: You are attacked by someone because he just feel like it, or you are to close to him, or any reason he judge fine.
PvE: You mostly avoid all unfair fights by staying away from them.
PvP: You cant avoid some fights, and sometimes, you are way behind in gear/levels.
PvE is great for friendly competition and cooperation, it include a lot of rewards and congratulations(go to a PvE game server, the griefing is completely drawned under the Gratz, congratz, woot and such topics)
PvP is great for pure raw competition and it include a lot of griefing (just go to Lin2 boards or any PvP oriented game).
Dont read me wrong, PvP have it place, it just dont have it place everywhere in the MMORPG, it need zones like DAoC but where you only work on PvP stuff, nothing for the carebears players to even venture in those zones. The best *grouping* member outside of those PvP zones need to have earn his stuff out of the PvP zones, no incitation to go PvP but the pure raw desire to PvP itself.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Wow.....how mature....
Sounds like you had a bad childhood.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
--Jack Handy
I'd consider the griefing in a PvE game a lot worse then in a PvP game. Because in a PvE game, they can steal, KS, or train you, and then just laugh, and hide behind that veil of you cant attack me, its coded in the game. They can grief you a lot worse, and you cant do one darn thing back.
As for zones for PvP, thats only good for carebears, if you think PvPers want a PvP system like that, you'd be mistaken.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Wow.....how mature....
Sounds like you had a bad childhood.
I'm sorry that I even posted this thread in the first place. I should have known that this would turn into a flame war due to the controversial subject. I merely wanted to seperate fact from opinion....Fact: PvP exists in some if not most mmorpg games up to this point...Opinion: I love, like, don't care, hate, etc...etc...etc.. PvP....Sorry all for this flame war...Xaldor
This is the typical flawed pvper logic. I personally don't find pvp to be that much of a challenge and even when it is challenging I don't find it especially fun.
I have participated in pvp in some online shooters, DAoC, Shadowbane, and testing Lineage 2 and I would say I have won 70% or more of the time. Winning equaling my surviving and those I am fighting being killed. That in my eyes makes me fairly successful at pvp, yet I didn't experience the blissful magical joy that all of these "pvp rules and nothing else matters!" types seem to think I should.
Sure I enjoyed parts of it but I can unequivocally say I have derived more joy and on a much more consistent basis by working together with people in a pve environment.
Pvp tends to do one thing to mmorpgs when it is included, it destroys them. No, I am not saying that the game is not financially successful or unpopular because it includes pvp. The problem is pvp basically removes all rpg from the mix and leaves a different form of Quake or Counter Strike.
Here are the things that contribute to that in my mind.
* PvP attracts a certain crowd, one where most players have call signs rather then names, ick! I see this every time I log into the Lineage 2 beta (don't get me wrong, I love this game though it would be even better if the pvp were limited to rvr clanwar imo). Names like Falcon1023, Griefmaster, L33tPK3r, LiquidXtacy and such just don't fit in a fantasy rpg. These players are simply not there to play an rpg. They are there for their fantasy version of a Quake fix.
* Developers have limited time and resources when designing these massive mmorpgs. An element like pvp is not trivial. It requires a great deal of balancing and content specific to that play style. In concentrating on the pvp elements the rpg and world development almost universally suffers as the resources and focus are diverted. Also many rpg elements are forcefully removed to allow for smoother pvp content.
* PvP at its core is often anti rpg. Other then race wars or realm wars, there are very limited times when pvp actually makes any sense in a roleplaying environment. Of course if your roleplaying a prison society or some totally chaotic universe where mankind is killing itself off (which most mmorpgs are not in this setting) this may make sense but thats about it.
I will use Shadowbane as an example. The races from that game have a great backstory with lots of history and supposed factions and feelings toward other races. Unfortunately none of that matters in the game whatsoever because when it comes to pvp the players will never follow it. Its not uncommon to see two players of races that hate each other fighting together to pk a third character from a race neither of them has any racial or political problem with.
* PvP players and rpg players often want different things from their games. When trying to combine rpg and pvp in a mmorpg the developers have to lean one way or the other or make difficult compromises in regards to the prospective players desires. This tends to leave both crowds feeling like the developers went down the wrong path.
I have no problem with pvp overall, in fact I love it in some types of games, I just don't want it in my mmorpgs. That being said, I understand how some people really enjoy pvp and want massive multiplayer fantasy versions of Quake to play. The answer really is simple, make both. MMORPGS for the rpg fans and MMOFPVP (massively multiplayer online pvp fantasy) for the pvp crowd.
Creating separate games allows the developers to focus on what the players of their type of game want to see and create compelling reasons to play in an environment the player wants to be in.
Wow, if you find train, KS or steal *HARD* to bear, you are definitely not a PvP player, I mean, those are so minor details and only a minority does it, and they all tend to love PvP in the first place.
All the folks I know that train willingly are indeed players that play PvP and try to twist the non-PvP in something close to PvP.
I rather have to deal with *rudeplayer03* trains then with him attacking me. I wish I can avoid both, but of 2 evils, I pick the lesser.
*shrug*
Then PvP like current EQ is the only solution if you need the best tools from all the game in the PvP zones, it dont work.
Carebear would not accept, no matter how hard you try to change that, to be PK when they are just working on their toon. Be it zones for PvP that bring only PvP uberness or another server, I dont mind at all, I dont want them to attack me.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well, at first I figured Non-PvP would suck, but when I tried it, I really enjoyed it. Working with other people to take out AI is very fun also.
Although I find PvP alot more excelirating, just because you know your fighting another real life person. And it is a bit more challenging
Sometimes, it is better to say nothing at all. Cause big mouths results in big words, and big words travel like bacteria.
Sometimes, it is better to say nothing at all. Cause big mouths say big words, and big words travel like bacteria.