To be clear, unlike Jorev I think it is, I really couldn't care less about gold farming, or gold farming sites as long as the game I play isn't adversely affected.
I also don't generally agree with breaking NDAs, I don't however like seing people told they can be sued or will be sued, or being misled into thinking an agreement is binding when its not.
I can see your point about not wanting to be in and out of court.
We could probably debate all day whether allowing posts in a forum is facilitating in a legal sense, as well as whether knowingly linking to a site that helps people violate private contracts is facilitation or interference in a legal contract, thus making you liable for damages, but I suppose all would be pure speculation.
I want to thank you for actually responding and discussing this with us.
[quote]..it comes down to it at its most simple form: the companies would be sued into oblivion if what they did was illegal. Given that no one has even tried, it suggests the law is on their side.[/quote]
So, that means that if I rob a store every day and don't get caught, its perfectly legal because nobody has pressed charges? Interesting twist.
wow, i just read this entire thread, took quite a while. and me opinion shifted several times as i read along, seeing the different points of boths sides of the debate.
Now i cant say that im resolved about this issue, cause like i said, i could see both sides of the issue. but what i can say is that i do think that in some cases goldsellers, farmers, whatever can indeed b harmful to the game by and at large. ive been the one trying deparately to manage to get a shot in on the Kecoon Warriors at Moriadon (or as i like to call it, Moron-a-don), so that i can get a Kukri Ring, which is a rare, expensive item that u actually need later on in the game to complete a quest in Knight Online, or in Hero Online, fighting with the campers at Highlands for the Ancient Warrior cause of a quest item that only drops from this one spawn. I have actually quit more than one MMO because when i started, every1 was about the same lvl and such, and a wk, 2 wk, 3 wk later u have multibillionaires that "bought" their ingame cash with real money. Ive had ingame debates with ppl that admitted that they were "pro" gamers that simply lvl a char that theyre going to sell on Ebay or some other company. it is human nature to b lazy, not only american, but human. and by and large, its these same ppl that farm and buy their gold and whathaveya, that also do it at whatever the means necessary. pointing out the Kecoon warriors as an example, the guy i was competing with was macroing. which means, he was more than likely in bed asleep, but his char was hard at work lvling, farming kecoons, and frustrating the hell out of me. all he was prolly doing was trying to get a kukri ring so he could sell it for ingame money. some ppl in same game only dupe rare items so that they can sell them to upgrade their own armor and weapons, so that makes it Ok. (sarcasiam intended there) point of ref. these actions that ive mentioned here r in fact bannable offenses in this game. but ppl r willing to do it cause it makes it easier for them later, or they can make real money off of it.
again, not saying that me opinion is resolved, cause (quite frankly) it is not. just saying that sometimes it seems that ppl that r on the pro gold side of this issue dont seem to care who's feet they step on, or squash to get what they want.
me personnally i dont, and have never bought ingame items or money, except in Entropia Universe which its allowed.
To be honest I haven't read the entire thread but I too can see both sides of this issue, and have no real solid opinions on it other than if it causes my gameplay to be effected in a bad way I would want it to stop.
I can see that people probably have made the point that buying gold allows the wealthy an unfair advantage in these games, but I would point out that while someone might be money rich others may be ridiculously time rich allowing them to progress faster and earn more gold than others.
I guess the difference would be that the person who is time rich actually spends the time to earn the gold, while the person who is money rich spends the time earning the money to buy the gold.
Difficult issue to really find a side that is 100% right at least from a philosophical point of view.
There are however business ramifications for gaming companies, but as I see it those too can be mixed.
If you think about it, someone might buy gold for a few reasons:
to make the game easier for them, often this can have a bad effect on their subscription, I know that at least for me, once I start using cheats in single player games the lifespan of that games enjoyment for me is severely limited. Sometimes I wish there were no cheat codes so that the temptation wouldn't be there and I could enjoy the game longer. I'm weak, I know
there are also those that are on the verge of cancelling because they feel overwhelmed by how far behind they percieve themselves to have fallen, or that in the limited amount of time they have to play their enjoyment is curbed because they feel as though their progress is too slow especially toward mid game goals such as mounts. This person buying gold might prolong their subscription a little longer and allow them to enjoy the game a little more.
There are of course other reasons, and I agree some can be detremental to a game.
I've skimmed through the thread and the one thing I keep seeing MMORPG saying is 'we aren't taking a moral stance by refusing this type of advertising', etc..
I'm sorry, but YOU ARE taking a stance by accepting it. There is no neutral ground here on which to stand. This is a binary situation, 0 or 1. You either refuse the advertising or you accept it. Whichever is your choice and I don't dispute it. Just please, don't pretend you are not taking a stand. Even a refusal to make any decision in a binary situation is, in and of itself, a decision for the default outcome. This is simple, demonstrable logic at it's most basic.
Frankly, by supporting these currency sellers you are condoning exploiting. These companies need massive amounts of gold these days. World of Warcraft is the best example. Very casual friendly 1-59, thus the 6 million subscriber base. Many of those people want to get the gear they need to compete, but just don't have the time. So they go on to these sites and buy some gold. I'd wager a good portion of the WoW community buys gold from there sites. To keep up with a demand that high these companies have to and do resort to exploiting various systems in-game.
And like someone else stated, but allowing these ads on your site you are making a stand, you are stating an opinion. You are either for them, or against them.
Gold farmers, peoples buying gold, IGE staff, all these guys, I group with some of them and shared some areas and they never hurt my gaming experience, they only show disappointment when I refuse to barter with them. Which make me feel better and more uber as I deny them. They are IMPROVING my gaming experience, I will gladly be a guide to a noob who just buy stuff and is clueless on how to play.
In-game mechanics designed wrongly do harm my fun and gaming experience.
As a player I have nothing against these ads and virtual sellers, I can't care less. I will group them just as I would group anyone else.
Try to make me group FoH folks knowingly just to saw the results! Catfight promised! Raiding end-game hurt my gameplay experience. As a player, I don't have to figure further, what harm grouping: Raiding. It is not these folks at IGE. You know, grouping someone from IGE is fun, and when you win a roll to see them abide and act nicely is still fun. IGE folks think on the long term, yes they will lose some /random roll with me, but they will also get better groups and invariably better options. Raiders are a scourge, RAIDING IS DESTROYING THE GROUPING GAME at it core, virtual sellers? They are providing options I deny (selling/buying) and options I will gladly accept (grouping), be it themselves directly into uber-dungeon, or their customers wandering around and needing help in these high end areas. Again, raiding is far more problematic than these virtual things. I really don't understand why they are so fussy about this, yet they can't accept that the BEST GROUPER deserve to earn everything in GROUPS.
If I have to choose between IGE and FoH, it is not a choice, I will gladly welcome IGE while I would train FoH out of habits on how to behave with these elitists and rudes players.
IGE never awaken the Sleeper in EQ, many Uber Guilds did, on the purpose to weaken the other players, to limit them. Raiding is hurting the players, DIRECTLY in the case of the Sleepers, indirectly for most groupers with undeserved gear that is limited to raiders. While IGE is "helping" the players, even if I decline their services, it affect me postively, as they group me, they bring more noobs around to be help, it make me play in a better game. IGE improves my gaming experience, while most UberGuilds are ruining it on purpose. IGE doesn't close any door, it open some. Raiding is the problem by closing grouping doors, not IGE or whatever virtual sellers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
That was a nice long read, and some really good points. I think there are a few good points that were largly missed in this thread. I would also point that I am against gold selling. Though I will also admit that early in my time playing, I did indeed buy gold for a game. It really did little for or against my playing experience. The gold did not make me vastly superior and the items I bought did not stop me from dying every bit as much as I did before. I won't do it again, because despite the temporary good it did for my character, it was somewhat empty because I did not earn it. Personal choice.
First off, I think only one poster really hit the nail on the head regarding EULA's. The legally binding part of the contract is not what you agree to, but the penalties of breaching the agreement...ie banning of accounts (loss of right to play). The legal portion would be if a customer sues for loss of right to play. The courts would not decide criminal or civil action based on breaking a particular portion of the EULA that is not already covered under copyright laws. So if IGE was selling stolen accounts, there is a breech of copyright law and grounds for lawsuit. If their accounts are legally paid, but they are breaking the EULA, the only recourse would be the suspension of play to that account.
Also, in using the napster example, Napster was sued and lost because they were not simply a file sharing avenue. They held a central database of the files being shared (if I remember the details correctly). This is why there are still several file sharing venues still around. ICQ is, among other things, a file sharing venue. They are still around because it is the choice of two users to break copyright laws of trading say...music or movies, etc, not ICQ. BitTorrent is another great example. The file sharing is between two people. Sites that have listings of the illegal content are violating laws, but the interfaces like Azeurus are not.
As far as IGE, it may be hard to prove any criminal or civil wrongdoing because they are not breaking any traditional copyright laws. Profit from another's intellectual property needs (as was stated) to prove monetary loss, which would be near impossible for say Mythic to prove. Players are likely quitting because of it, but to prove that is THE reason and not bored, financial, etc. would be pretty tough. Add to it that many of these virtual traders are not located in the US adds a whole other ball of wax to the mix. At the end of the day I think it could be proved, but the costs incurred to the company to persue legal action would be way too vast to do it, especially for the hundreds upon hundreds of companies that do it. The ban account method, while being akin to a pebble in a pond, is likely the only recourse to stop it. I guess the other option would be to make nothing of monetary value. I am sure City of Heroes/Villains has few problems with this as there are no 'rare' items and money in the game gets dilutted, especially at higher levels, that there is no value outside of the game for it. If players are willing to give 10 million on a whim, who is going to pay for it?
So I would say that the legal aspect of it all is almost moot.
As for as ethics and morals are concerned, I fully believe that MMORPG.com is taking the right path. Several arguments that by posting ads, MMORPG.com is advocating the practice, but I think that is very idealistic. Does NBC advocate people eating at McDonalds by showing their ad? If someone dies of a heart attack by eating there, is NBC liable? I think the ethical practive of IGE can come into question, but to extend it to the sites they advertise on is a stretch. I think McDonalds is quite often ethically challenged, or better yet, Microsoft...a perfect example of a company that has lost a lot in lawsuits due to unethical business practice, but I do not blame NBC or claim faulty ethical practices because they show XBOX 360 or Microsoft office commercials.
I think for those that are so vastly against the use of these ads, your recourse is quite simple. if you don't come to this site, that will be your stance. Less people on the site means less views, less profits and finally, a choice for MMORPG.com to regear their advertising to stop the loss of readers/subscribers. In the end, I would think...as is in the Microsoft case, it is not the place for MMORPC.com (or NBC, etc) to put a stand on the issue. It is for the customers and businesses of MMORPGs to stop the unethical practices.
To do nothing is acceptance. This sentance applies not to MMORPG.com. It would apply to the employees of the site that play the game, on an individual basis. It applies to all of us who play. It extends to all who develop the game. Extending that to the service that MMORPG.com provides is a a far reach.
I guess most of all, and probably the most accurate and to the point of my personal view...the ads don't bug me. I don't click on them, I don't use their service, I don't reccomend it to others. I ignore them because I like a lot of what MMORPG.com has to offer...just as I watch NBC even though they have commercials I disagree with.
Pretty soon I wont have any gaming sites to visit. I think its lazy and lame to use these services and the websites that promote them, well i just wont visit them. Im sure no one cares but if enough people start doing it.
running such a big side costs loooooooooooads of money. Yeah Advertising is needed. But honestly - buying ingame cash can get you banned from your MMO!!
So you might be the reason a certain player was banned from a game.
In my eyes, RMT is the abuse of hundrets of poor people to give the wealthy more joy for their free time activities. By buying and or advertising, every dollar you earn means 20 hours of exploitation of mostly chineese young adults.
something here that i think needs to be mentioned:
there are a lot of real world applications for an NDA. i'm under one right now with my employer, as are many many people who have access to sensitive and/or private information. people can be and often are sued as a result of NDA breaking in areas outside testing games. there's long standing legal precedent on the issue.
the law that pertains to EULAs for games with regard to this issue (sale of ingame items/coin) is fairly young and not so well settled, and for very sound reasons. both sides have a lot to lose and each side imo is afraid to have the courts decide against them. easier for game companies to ban user accounts and for gold farmers/buyers purchase new ones.
It doesn't matter to me what the justifications are. There are many ways to generate money. Gold farming ads are not one of them. MMORPG.COM you have lost one member. I hope you change your perspective in the future. Gold Farmers are just wrong. Debate this without me. I'm off somewhere else where web sites don't show me ads that decrease the enjoyment of my gaming experience..
Originally posted by alienpriest [quote]..it comes down to it at its most simple form: the companies would be sued into oblivion if what they did was illegal. Given that no one has even tried, it suggests the law is on their side.[/quote]
So, that means that if I rob a store every day and don't get caught, its perfectly legal because nobody has pressed charges? Interesting twist.
Not really...
I can link you to the law that says its illegal to rob a store.
Can you link me to the law that says its illegal to farm gold ?
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The discussion of the legality is fairly irrelevant because:
1. Banning of gold seller accounts and them buying more = more $ for the game companies.
2. Even if it was legal, the fact that many MMORPGs close thousands accounts of gold sellers is proof enough that shouldnt be doing this.
So instead of more free trial ads we have ads that help to, in some eyes, ruin MMOs. Oh and I also bet the recent SWG forum changes were made purely in interest of the gaming community.
Just read through the entire thread and I'm sure I already voiced an opinion about this in the past but I'll make a few simple points that have not been adressed yet or need to be stressed.
The very first one is that the EULA is supposed to be a legal binding contract, due to the fact that there are no laws concerning the fact if a click is a legally binding signature in each and every country of the world the internet is still a largely unpoliced environment. This combined with the fact that many countries base their entire laws on "code" rather then "legal precedent" gives you a huge problem for the legal side of the arguement because the companies could simply delocalize.
This arguement is however not one to make on the legal side, it is as it was precised earlier an ethical decision. Ethics as suggested in many of your articles would suggest that it is "wrong" to buy/sell gold because it hurts the competitional gaming experience of those who do not take part in such a service. Those argueing it doesn't should reflect if buying a street for real life cash in monopoly affects yes or no the competitional gaming experience of a third player negatively. A multiplayer computer game, be it massive (MMO) or not is not so different from a multiplayer board game. When you gain an advantage outside of the game mechanics, you are cheating. I think people who hide behind the legality of an issue because they lack morals were badly educated by their parents. Morality is a whole other issue though and is not the one to start fighting for on this board. For now I'll just establish that ethics would consider it harmful to cheat in a game.
Now the point of this thread was that by accepting the advertisement of companies that condone and profit from what's ethically wrong MMORPG.com itself is wrong or condones those actions. I agree with the point but have no objections as to MMORPG.com accepting the money from these advertisers because I don't even look at advertising. It is however of our moral obligation to warn users unaware of the ethics of the companies advertising and of the effects in MMOGs as is done in many articles on this site and in this very thread. However the editors arguement is flawed, it's not by not accepting the advertisements that you loose your neutrality. It is by not allowing the other view on the subject in your news articles that you go down on a slippery slope. The decision is indeed ethical on your end MMORPG.com and you can come out for it and say : "Our business ethics do not prevent us from doing this" instead of trying to avoid reality. Capitalism is the higher value for a business in the end.
I don't believe that this site has a right to do step 7 if step 1 was already wrong to come back on Razor's main point which was to adress the problem at it's source rather then to target anger on MMORPG.com. Even if there is no legal precedent a business that is ran in an ethical fashion will receive a better reputation from those accepting to use the services provided by that company. The branding used by this particular business gives you an undeniable advantage in the domain you are operating. Setting an ethical example in the domain would only get you compliments.
Originally posted by Michke I don't believe that this site has a right to do step 7 if step 1 was already wrong to come back on Razor's main point which was to adress the problem at it's source rather then to target anger on MMORPG.com. Even if there is no legal precedent a business that is ran in an ethical fashion will receive a better reputation from those accepting to use the services provided by that company. The branding used by this particular business gives you an undeniable advantage in the domain you are operating. Setting an ethical example in the domain would only get you compliments.
Great post, so nice to read something well contstructed and convincing Minchke.
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
These are what started the trend to killing games.... Bots bots bots... These were created cuz of the vitual sellers. I really don't know why or how this got so big but its just funny that that many people buy that much in game currency to keep such a big empire going. The peeps behind it must have had a large sum of money to start off with. But still i really refuse to take that they make many thousands of dollars to keep going let alone the profits
Looks like mmorpg staff dont care about his community and that nothing will change regarding the virtual sellers adverts so im out, time to look for another mmo page that really care from his users
Well, I don't think the staff "doesn't care" its a pure business decission However here is some more food for thought, more and more MMO sites are jumping on the "no gold" campaign...
Lineage 2 Stratics stands with Lineage 2 Vault in making a stand against gold farmers. Gold farming ruins the spirit of the game and is part of a cycle that destroys games we have all come to love. Which means you will never see an ad on any of our sites (where its against the EULA) that sell gold, items, characters, etc.
Originally posted by Jorev Forums / Chat / Messaging Rules At MMORPG.COM we make every effort to make this a safe and enjoyable destination for those in the MMORPG community. You may NOT use our communication devices (Forums,Chat,Private Message System) for any of the following: Trading of in-game items or game accounts for real-world money. Our trade forums are only for in-game transactions Doesn't the spirit of this rule apply to adverts even though some lawyer type will claim they don't technically use the forums? Aren't adverts a message source? This site is starting to get trashy and overrun with these resellers and powerlevelling services. Is this why we originally enjoyed playing MMOGs? I think not. Why then condone bastardizing our virtual gaming world?
As has been pointed out before: The advertizements are revenue required to run the site. Unless you are willing to pony up an alternate form of revenue for the site then I suggest you suck it up and deal. Or invest in an add blocker.
I would pay for a subscription to read and post at this site if it meant that these averts would disappear, with the supporters of farming and levelling services along with them.. There are a lot of ways for me to make money to support myself and my family, but I don't go out whoring for $.
Originally posted by Jorev Forums / Chat / Messaging RulesAt MMORPG.COM we make every effort to make this a safe and enjoyable destination for those in the MMORPG community. You may NOT use our communication devices (Forums,Chat,Private Message System) for any of the following: Trading of in-game items or game accounts for real-world money. Our trade forums are only for in-game transactions Doesn't the spirit of this rule apply to adverts even though some lawyer type will claim they don't technically use the forums? Aren't adverts a message source? This site is starting to get trashy and overrun with these resellers and powerlevelling services. Is this why we originally enjoyed playing MMOGs? I think not. Why then condone bastardizing our virtual gaming world?
Legally, all those things are allowed in games and are a big part of them - whether we like them or not. If the services they offered were not legal, they'd have long since been sued into oblivion.
Um, then why the Hel are all these gold farmers and sellers getting banned en mas?
Clearly it violates the ToS on MOST games, those without it built in as some newer games will be...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
One interesting thing I read about this issue ironically came from government news. Since ingame gold effectively has some real world value because of the secondary market, it is being considered to become a taxable item. What does that mean? I would have to pay a real world tax on gold I earn ingame. No, I am not making this up either.
It clearly states in EULA or TOS (whatever they call it) that buying items/gold ingame for real world money is against the company policy. You can and will be banned if caught. That point really isn't an issue and is pretty clear cut.
The problem is, I said this in other forum posts, is the legality is a bit gray since companies haven't yet really forced the issue. This is a relatively new issue, WoW's success just really brought it into the light. SOE filed suit with Ebay years back for selling EQ1 accounts, they settled out of court. Mythic has been to court over DAoC accounts being sold, they also were settled out of court. Even if, say USA makes it 100% illegal go-to-jail to sell accounts, items, gold, etc what can you do to the Korean guy who sells to a Chinese guy? American law isn't binding on them. Would be very hard to get an international law passed, much less enforceable.
I can understand editors here taking ads for the revenue, but they could make a stand and say No Gold Ads. I am quite sure there are many other companies that could advertise here, it's not like Gold Farmers Inc are the only ones out there. I also don't buy the "well it technically isn't illegal" argument either. Steroids aren't illegal either but it is still wrong a lot of MLB baseball players are taking them for an unfair advantage. Also by allowing advertisements for Buy Gold here, it implies that this website condones the secondary market even if they don't.
Comments
I also don't generally agree with breaking NDAs, I don't however like seing people told they can be sued or will be sued, or being misled into thinking an agreement is binding when its not.
I can see your point about not wanting to be in and out of court.
We could probably debate all day whether allowing posts in a forum is facilitating in a legal sense, as well as whether knowingly linking to a site that helps people violate private contracts is facilitation or interference in a legal contract, thus making you liable for damages, but I suppose all would be pure speculation.
I want to thank you for actually responding and discussing this with us.
SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
So, that means that if I rob a store every day and don't get caught, its perfectly legal because nobody has pressed charges? Interesting twist.
http://erickveil.com/
Now i cant say that im resolved about this issue, cause like i said, i could see both sides of the issue. but what i can say is that i do think that in some cases goldsellers, farmers, whatever can indeed b harmful to the game by and at large. ive been the one trying deparately to manage to get a shot in on the Kecoon Warriors at Moriadon (or as i like to call it, Moron-a-don), so that i can get a Kukri Ring, which is a rare, expensive item that u actually need later on in the game to complete a quest in Knight Online, or in Hero Online, fighting with the campers at Highlands for the Ancient Warrior cause of a quest item that only drops from this one spawn. I have actually quit more than one MMO because when i started, every1 was about the same lvl and such, and a wk, 2 wk, 3 wk later u have multibillionaires that "bought" their ingame cash with real money. Ive had ingame debates with ppl that admitted that they were "pro" gamers that simply lvl a char that theyre going to sell on Ebay or some other company. it is human nature to b lazy, not only american, but human. and by and large, its these same ppl that farm and buy their gold and whathaveya, that also do it at whatever the means necessary. pointing out the Kecoon warriors as an example, the guy i was competing with was macroing. which means, he was more than likely in bed asleep, but his char was hard at work lvling, farming kecoons, and frustrating the hell out of me. all he was prolly doing was trying to get a kukri ring so he could sell it for ingame money. some ppl in same game only dupe rare items so that they can sell them to upgrade their own armor and weapons, so that makes it Ok. (sarcasiam intended there) point of ref. these actions that ive mentioned here r in fact bannable offenses in this game. but ppl r willing to do it cause it makes it easier for them later, or they can make real money off of it.
again, not saying that me opinion is resolved, cause (quite frankly) it is not. just saying that sometimes it seems that ppl that r on the pro gold side of this issue dont seem to care who's feet they step on, or squash to get what they want.
me personnally i dont, and have never bought ingame items or money, except in Entropia Universe which its allowed.
______________________________
I can see that people probably have made the point that buying gold allows the wealthy an unfair advantage in these games, but I would point out that while someone might be money rich others may be ridiculously time rich allowing them to progress faster and earn more gold than others.
I guess the difference would be that the person who is time rich actually spends the time to earn the gold, while the person who is money rich spends the time earning the money to buy the gold.
Difficult issue to really find a side that is 100% right at least from a philosophical point of view.
There are however business ramifications for gaming companies, but as I see it those too can be mixed.
If you think about it, someone might buy gold for a few reasons:
- to make the game easier for them, often this can have a bad effect on their subscription, I know that at least for me, once I start using cheats in single player games the lifespan of that games enjoyment for me is severely limited. Sometimes I wish there were no cheat codes so that the temptation wouldn't be there and I could enjoy the game longer. I'm weak, I know
- there are also those that are on the verge of cancelling because they feel overwhelmed by how far behind they percieve themselves to have fallen, or that in the limited amount of time they have to play their enjoyment is curbed because they feel as though their progress is too slow especially toward mid game goals such as mounts. This person buying gold might prolong their subscription a little longer and allow them to enjoy the game a little more.
There are of course other reasons, and I agree some can be detremental to a game.SWG RIP
moctodumegws
Can't WAIT!
I'm sorry, but YOU ARE taking a stance by accepting it. There is no neutral ground here on which to stand. This is a binary situation, 0 or 1. You either refuse the advertising or you accept it. Whichever is your choice and I don't dispute it. Just please, don't pretend you are not taking a stand. Even a refusal to make any decision in a binary situation is, in and of itself, a decision for the default outcome. This is simple, demonstrable logic at it's most basic.
exploiting. These companies need massive amounts of gold these days.
World of Warcraft is the best example. Very casual friendly 1-59, thus
the 6 million subscriber base. Many of those people want to get the
gear they need to compete, but just don't have the time. So they go on
to these sites and buy some gold. I'd wager a good portion of the WoW
community buys gold from there sites. To keep up with a demand that
high these companies have to and do resort to exploiting various
systems in-game.
And
like someone else stated, but allowing these ads on your site you are
making a stand, you are stating an opinion. You are either for them, or
against them.
Gold farmers, peoples buying gold, IGE staff, all these guys, I group with some of them and shared some areas and they never hurt my gaming experience, they only show disappointment when I refuse to barter with them. Which make me feel better and more uber as I deny them. They are IMPROVING my gaming experience, I will gladly be a guide to a noob who just buy stuff and is clueless on how to play.
In-game mechanics designed wrongly do harm my fun and gaming experience.
As a player I have nothing against these ads and virtual sellers, I can't care less. I will group them just as I would group anyone else.
Try to make me group FoH folks knowingly just to saw the results!
Catfight promised! Raiding end-game hurt my gameplay experience. As a player, I don't have to figure further, what harm grouping: Raiding. It is not these folks at IGE. You know, grouping someone from IGE is fun, and when you win a roll to see them abide and act nicely is still fun. IGE folks think on the long term, yes they will lose some /random roll with me, but they will also get better groups and invariably better options. Raiders are a scourge, RAIDING IS DESTROYING THE GROUPING GAME at it core, virtual sellers? They are providing options I deny (selling/buying) and options I will gladly accept (grouping), be it themselves directly into uber-dungeon, or their customers wandering around and needing help in these high end areas. Again, raiding is far more problematic than these virtual things. I really don't understand why they are so fussy about this, yet they can't accept that the BEST GROUPER deserve to earn everything in GROUPS.
If I have to choose between IGE and FoH, it is not a choice, I will gladly welcome IGE while I would train FoH out of habits on how to behave with these elitists and rudes players.
IGE never awaken the Sleeper in EQ, many Uber Guilds did, on the purpose to weaken the other players, to limit them. Raiding is hurting the players, DIRECTLY in the case of the Sleepers, indirectly for most groupers with undeserved gear that is limited to raiders. While IGE is "helping" the players, even if I decline their services, it affect me postively, as they group me, they bring more noobs around to be help, it make me play in a better game. IGE improves my gaming experience, while most UberGuilds are ruining it on purpose. IGE doesn't close any door, it open some. Raiding is the problem by closing grouping doors, not IGE or whatever virtual sellers.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
First off, I think only one poster really hit the nail on the head regarding EULA's. The legally binding part of the contract is not what you agree to, but the penalties of breaching the agreement...ie banning of accounts (loss of right to play). The legal portion would be if a customer sues for loss of right to play. The courts would not decide criminal or civil action based on breaking a particular portion of the EULA that is not already covered under copyright laws. So if IGE was selling stolen accounts, there is a breech of copyright law and grounds for lawsuit. If their accounts are legally paid, but they are breaking the EULA, the only recourse would be the suspension of play to that account.
Also, in using the napster example, Napster was sued and lost because they were not simply a file sharing avenue. They held a central database of the files being shared (if I remember the details correctly). This is why there are still several file sharing venues still around. ICQ is, among other things, a file sharing venue. They are still around because it is the choice of two users to break copyright laws of trading say...music or movies, etc, not ICQ. BitTorrent is another great example. The file sharing is between two people. Sites that have listings of the illegal content are violating laws, but the interfaces like Azeurus are not.
As far as IGE, it may be hard to prove any criminal or civil wrongdoing because they are not breaking any traditional copyright laws. Profit from another's intellectual property needs (as was stated) to prove monetary loss, which would be near impossible for say Mythic to prove. Players are likely quitting because of it, but to prove that is THE reason and not bored, financial, etc. would be pretty tough. Add to it that many of these virtual traders are not located in the US adds a whole other ball of wax to the mix. At the end of the day I think it could be proved, but the costs incurred to the company to persue legal action would be way too vast to do it, especially for the hundreds upon hundreds of companies that do it. The ban account method, while being akin to a pebble in a pond, is likely the only recourse to stop it. I guess the other option would be to make nothing of monetary value. I am sure City of Heroes/Villains has few problems with this as there are no 'rare' items and money in the game gets dilutted, especially at higher levels, that there is no value outside of the game for it. If players are willing to give 10 million on a whim, who is going to pay for it?
So I would say that the legal aspect of it all is almost moot.
As for as ethics and morals are concerned, I fully believe that MMORPG.com is taking the right path. Several arguments that by posting ads, MMORPG.com is advocating the practice, but I think that is very idealistic. Does NBC advocate people eating at McDonalds by showing their ad? If someone dies of a heart attack by eating there, is NBC liable? I think the ethical practive of IGE can come into question, but to extend it to the sites they advertise on is a stretch. I think McDonalds is quite often ethically challenged, or better yet, Microsoft...a perfect example of a company that has lost a lot in lawsuits due to unethical business practice, but I do not blame NBC or claim faulty ethical practices because they show XBOX 360 or Microsoft office commercials.
I think for those that are so vastly against the use of these ads, your recourse is quite simple. if you don't come to this site, that will be your stance. Less people on the site means less views, less profits and finally, a choice for MMORPG.com to regear their advertising to stop the loss of readers/subscribers. In the end, I would think...as is in the Microsoft case, it is not the place for MMORPC.com (or NBC, etc) to put a stand on the issue. It is for the customers and businesses of MMORPGs to stop the unethical practices.
To do nothing is acceptance. This sentance applies not to MMORPG.com. It would apply to the employees of the site that play the game, on an individual basis. It applies to all of us who play. It extends to all who develop the game. Extending that to the service that MMORPG.com provides is a a far reach.
I guess most of all, and probably the most accurate and to the point of my personal view...the ads don't bug me. I don't click on them, I don't use their service, I don't reccomend it to others. I ignore them because I like a lot of what MMORPG.com has to offer...just as I watch NBC even though they have commercials I disagree with.
Hi,
running such a big side costs loooooooooooads of money. Yeah Advertising is needed. But honestly - buying ingame cash can get you banned from your MMO!!
So you might be the reason a certain player was banned from a game.
In my eyes, RMT is the abuse of hundrets of poor people to give the wealthy more joy for their free time activities. By buying and or advertising, every dollar you earn means 20 hours of exploitation of mostly chineese young adults.
something here that i think needs to be mentioned:
there are a lot of real world applications for an NDA. i'm under one right now with my employer, as are many many people who have access to sensitive and/or private information. people can be and often are sued as a result of NDA breaking in areas outside testing games. there's long standing legal precedent on the issue.
the law that pertains to EULAs for games with regard to this issue (sale of ingame items/coin) is fairly young and not so well settled, and for very sound reasons. both sides have a lot to lose and each side imo is afraid to have the courts decide against them. easier for game companies to ban user accounts and for gold farmers/buyers purchase new ones.
that way the only thing that suffers is the game.
Not really...
I can link you to the law that says its illegal to rob a store.
Can you link me to the law that says its illegal to farm gold ?
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
1. Banning of gold seller accounts and them buying more = more $ for the game companies.
2. Even if it was legal, the fact that many MMORPGs close thousands accounts of gold sellers is proof enough that shouldnt be doing this.
So instead of more free trial ads we have ads that help to, in some eyes, ruin MMOs. Oh and I also bet the recent SWG forum changes were made purely in interest of the gaming community.
Cool, $.
Just read through the entire thread and I'm sure I already voiced an opinion about this in the past but I'll make a few simple points that have not been adressed yet or need to be stressed.
The very first one is that the EULA is supposed to be a legal binding contract, due to the fact that there are no laws concerning the fact if a click is a legally binding signature in each and every country of the world the internet is still a largely unpoliced environment. This combined with the fact that many countries base their entire laws on "code" rather then "legal precedent" gives you a huge problem for the legal side of the arguement because the companies could simply delocalize.
This arguement is however not one to make on the legal side, it is as it was precised earlier an ethical decision. Ethics as suggested in many of your articles would suggest that it is "wrong" to buy/sell gold because it hurts the competitional gaming experience of those who do not take part in such a service. Those argueing it doesn't should reflect if buying a street for real life cash in monopoly affects yes or no the competitional gaming experience of a third player negatively. A multiplayer computer game, be it massive (MMO) or not is not so different from a multiplayer board game. When you gain an advantage outside of the game mechanics, you are cheating. I think people who hide behind the legality of an issue because they lack morals were badly educated by their parents. Morality is a whole other issue though and is not the one to start fighting for on this board. For now I'll just establish that ethics would consider it harmful to cheat in a game.
Now the point of this thread was that by accepting the advertisement of companies that condone and profit from what's ethically wrong MMORPG.com itself is wrong or condones those actions. I agree with the point but have no objections as to MMORPG.com accepting the money from these advertisers because I don't even look at advertising. It is however of our moral obligation to warn users unaware of the ethics of the companies advertising and of the effects in MMOGs as is done in many articles on this site and in this very thread. However the editors arguement is flawed, it's not by not accepting the advertisements that you loose your neutrality. It is by not allowing the other view on the subject in your news articles that you go down on a slippery slope. The decision is indeed ethical on your end MMORPG.com and you can come out for it and say : "Our business ethics do not prevent us from doing this" instead of trying to avoid reality. Capitalism is the higher value for a business in the end.
I don't believe that this site has a right to do step 7 if step 1 was already wrong to come back on Razor's main point which was to adress the problem at it's source rather then to target anger on MMORPG.com. Even if there is no legal precedent a business that is ran in an ethical fashion will receive a better reputation from those accepting to use the services provided by that company. The branding used by this particular business gives you an undeniable advantage in the domain you are operating. Setting an ethical example in the domain would only get you compliments.
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Great post, so nice to read something well contstructed and convincing Minchke.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Well, I don't think the staff "doesn't care" its a pure business decission However here is some more food for thought, more and more MMO sites are jumping on the "no gold" campaign...
Lineage 2 Stratics stands with Lineage 2 Vault in making a stand against gold farmers. Gold farming ruins the spirit of the game and is part of a cycle that destroys games we have all come to love. Which means you will never see an ad on any of our sites (where its against the EULA) that sell gold, items, characters, etc.
I would pay for a subscription to read and post at this site if it meant that these averts would disappear, with the supporters of farming and levelling services along with them.. There are a lot of ways for me to make money to support myself and my family, but I don't go out whoring for $.
Legally, all those things are allowed in games and are a big part of them - whether we like them or not. If the services they offered were not legal, they'd have long since been sued into oblivion.
Um, then why the Hel are all these gold farmers and sellers getting banned en mas?
Clearly it violates the ToS on MOST games, those without it built in as some newer games will be...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
One interesting thing I read about this issue ironically came from government news. Since ingame gold effectively has some real world value because of the secondary market, it is being considered to become a taxable item. What does that mean? I would have to pay a real world tax on gold I earn ingame. No, I am not making this up either.
It clearly states in EULA or TOS (whatever they call it) that buying items/gold ingame for real world money is against the company policy. You can and will be banned if caught. That point really isn't an issue and is pretty clear cut.
The problem is, I said this in other forum posts, is the legality is a bit gray since companies haven't yet really forced the issue. This is a relatively new issue, WoW's success just really brought it into the light. SOE filed suit with Ebay years back for selling EQ1 accounts, they settled out of court. Mythic has been to court over DAoC accounts being sold, they also were settled out of court. Even if, say USA makes it 100% illegal go-to-jail to sell accounts, items, gold, etc what can you do to the Korean guy who sells to a Chinese guy? American law isn't binding on them. Would be very hard to get an international law passed, much less enforceable.
I can understand editors here taking ads for the revenue, but they could make a stand and say No Gold Ads. I am quite sure there are many other companies that could advertise here, it's not like Gold Farmers Inc are the only ones out there. I also don't buy the "well it technically isn't illegal" argument either. Steroids aren't illegal either but it is still wrong a lot of MLB baseball players are taking them for an unfair advantage. Also by allowing advertisements for Buy Gold here, it implies that this website condones the secondary market even if they don't.
Less than 200 replies to a sticky thread on the subject since February people.
Can it be any more obvious that most MMORPG players simply don't care?
Spend your time ranting to Congress and the Senate about child healthcare and the like instead. At least then your wind would be put to some good use.
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Malianea