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A grim future for us PVP hardcore players.

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  • BladinBladin Member UncommonPosts: 1,089
    I like fighting, i enjoy the challenge of it.  I enjoy defeating people through hard fights, defeating people who are better classes/builds then me.

    One thing i don't like is timesinks that take me out of the fight.  PvP exp loss, pvp item dropping, that to me is not fun.  Its merely a timesink in which i have to regear/regrind back to a competitive pvp level.  I've truely never found that to be a enjoyable experience.  But if you do, more power to you.

    But then again i get bored from pvp just like you get bored from pve.  Theres a limited amount of skills, and strategies, and playstyles, once you play long enough you know how to counter various things, know who you can't beat.  Which is similar to pve.  As well as certain areas where pks ofter travel/camp, places where they don't usually go by.  The "hot spots" for pve will become pvp centric places, while the duller/lesser pve areas will generally be safer the majority of the time.

    Once you've played any game long enough, youll learn the ropes and you generally won't be surprised by anything anymore.



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  • goneglockingoneglockin Member UncommonPosts: 706

    I like open PvP games and a big fan of Pre-Renaissance UO.  But permadeath is the stupidest thing i've ever heard.  It's not hardcore- it's fanatical.  Why would anyone play a game where you have to spend time building a character if you are just going to lose him?  Unless of course the actual building of a character, and the acquisition of goods, security, and abilities meant absolutely nothing and were given to you...  which again leads to the question- who the hell wants to play that game?

    Fanatics.  Not Hardcore- fanatics.  The ones getting checks from the government every month and a few rounds of thorazine in the loony bin every so often.

    Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.

  • PonziniPonzini Member UncommonPosts: 535

    Im agreeing with the original poster here. I don't see any games that fit my standards. INFACT I havent seen one released yet. Shadowbane was the closest I have played and in the first few months it was great dispite the fact it was poorly made (technically speaking).

    Great concepts, crappy games seems to be the way hardcore pvp MMOs seem to go. None of them get the funding or enough people to produce an MMO with the fundamentals.

    Before anyone should add on any features or work on anything else in an MMO they should FIRST make sure they have: very few bugs, decent graphics and animations that look normal, functioning basic UI, decent sized world packed with content, and the combat system working and fun.

    Im getting off topic here but its related because most games that have tried to make a game with full pvp have not had the basics. I havent seen a game done with permadeath so really no one knows if it could work. First off for perma death the game can not be item based. Even if a game isnt item based everyone cant seem to think outside the box and continue to say "but we worked so hard for our items and then we lose them! /cry". Which is true, in most games it would suck. In a game made for permadeath it would be fine.

    I have played on a permadeath server on EQ that was fun for a month until they closed it because it was a temporary server. It was one of the greatest times ive had in an MMO. Despite the few times I died and I mostly didnt make it past level 20 or so. Gave new meaning to being "high level". Watching your back and being careful with every move.

    Why do people get into a war over this on the forums? I have a personal opinion on the way I like to play. Other people like to play another way. Im ok with WoW and im gonna say its a good game because it has the basics and actually RUNS (unlike most MMOs). Its just not my play style. I would like a "hardcore" MMO with as much challenging features they can throw in it for something different.(full pvp, permadeath, etc) I dont see it happening for a long time as the OP said though.

    Games like darkfall dont count because its not released and I dont see it having a good release.

  • SassymolassySassymolassy Member Posts: 363



    Originally posted by asdar

    Eve is pure PvP hardcore it's true, and that was the type of MMO play I wanted I think it'd make me happy. I like more hand to hand combat with magic, or skills at least in my fighting as opposed to 3rd person stuff in a colorful space.
    I think the hardcore PvP'rs don't help people to understand what we're all about. There are some that only crave the in-your face trash talking stuff that comes with full loot, but I think the majority want full loot for what it does to the community.
    In your typical non-looting game it's every man for himself, or loose knit guilds, like are in WoW. If everything is on the line then it forces you to band tightly together. It was the same principle as a corpse run in EQ. Guilds would band together for massive CR's to get back someone's gear. In UO, you travelled in groups and you took revenge. In Eve you band together in tight groups to raid.
    If you've been in a tight group in any of those situations you know what I'm speaking about and what PvP is all about for us hardcore players. I never talk trash or show disrespect, but I like full loot and free pvp for the results. The results are a world where reputation matters, where people band together tightly and try and make their game world a better place.


    There has got to be a way to hardcore PvPers their danger factor without making it a time sink (regearing/grinding to regain xp).  I would think harder about what that would be but after 18 pages no one is actually reading post except me :-)

    Dont go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. (Mark Twain)

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by goneglockin
    I like open PvP games and a big fan of Pre-Renaissance UO. But permadeath is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. It's not hardcore- it's fanatical. Why would anyone play a game where you have to spend time building a character if you are just going to lose him?

    Why would anyone want to play a game where you have to spend time acquiring gear if you're just going to lose it? Why would antone want to play a game where you have to spend time mining if you're just going to lose it? The sentiment works just as well against open-loot as it does permadeath. I find the 'I'm hardcore because I want this level of losing stuff, he's a carebear because he wants less loss, and this other guy's a fanatic because he wants more' attitude of yours extremely amusing.

  • I used to know a guy who taught Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and no-holds barred fighting.  He taught because he was refraining from competeing even though he loved to compete.

    He was getting his PHD in a field that required a lot of manual labor.  Competing in BJJ or other more hardcore things meant he would risk an injury that could have serious impacts on what he was investing in his future.  If he got his ankle broken that would mean he might not be able to do his research and therefore his PHD work.  So he refrained from endangering his investment. 

    This is why "hardcore" PvP is doomed in any game that requires serious investments.  Whether that investment is gear or time or both or whatever. 

    Now add to the fact that most MMO are purposely designed to be timesinks so that people may reliably escape their worlds for large periods of time and you can see that "investment" is rather important.  Afterall without that investment most MMOs are pretty much worthless as they have little else. 

    Hardcore PvP is doomed because the people who want it also want other contradictory things and will not admit it.  The fact is you could have a server full of people who love hardcore PvP and yet most them would act like my PHD friend, because most people do eventually act in a relatively sane manner.  Most of these games are not actually fully "sane".  They are either completely restrictive or just breed chaos with no conesquences or force massive investment with no way to insure them.


  • SonofSethSonofSeth Member UncommonPosts: 1,884



    Originally posted by gestalt11
    I used??? to know a guy who taught Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and no-holds barred fighting.  He taught because he was refraining from competeing even though he loved to compete.

    ...





    Logical doesen't sound much fun.

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  • BonzarBonzar Member Posts: 176
    I don't think that these kids should call themselves hardcore PvPrs. PvP has nothing to do with looting or consequences, PvP is purely about playing another human being at a game, specifically competing against a human in an MMORPG. Being hardcore PvP only means that you're serious about playing other people.

    If that's the case, you wouldn't whine about what consequences you can impose on other people or what you gain from it, you'd just enjoy the game. it wouldn't matter if you were in a 20 man raid party in EQ 2 bashing it up and getting XP or just random PvP in the Guild Wars random arenas.

    What you mean to say is, "We hardcore griefers have lost our war, because it's a retarded game mechanic anyway." That's what you're really complaining about, not the PvP mechanics but how much grief the loser is put through. So just represent yourself as what you are, quit trying to hide behind some psuedo-honorable title like Hardcore PvPer.

    If you want to face real challenges and real consequences, do what the majority of us do; get involved in REAL LIFE. When I fuck up at work, the whole office knows it. I impact my chances at getting a raise or a promotion. When I do something selfish that hurts my girlfriend, I pay a real price. When I stub my toe in my bathroom, that HURTS. When I'm playing a game, I am trying to avoid these issues.

    I love PvP. I play a PvP server in EQ 2, I play Guild Wars and Shadowbane was my all-time favorite game right after the original NWN (where I did A LOT of PvP). I love that in Everquest 2, if I do lose some gear, it's nothing huge. Just up to handcrafted or treasured. I can replace that without too much hassle. I lose some coin, but whatever. What most of us hate is getting ganked and losing a lot of our play time. The first time I lost a valuable contract in Shadowbane I almost quit. I was fuming because that represented a large chunk of my time.

    What I'm saying is, I love playing against another human in RPGs and I love winning. I love it because I feel like I proved I'm a better player. I never looted my kills in Shadowbane because that didn't matter to me. I won the fight, I proved myself. I'm a hardcore PvP player. You're all just whining griefers.



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  • Originally posted by SonofSeth
    Originally posted by gestalt11
    I used??? to know a guy who taught Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and no-holds barred fighting.  He taught because he was refraining from competeing even though he loved to compete.

    ...


    Logical doesen't sound much fun.

    image


    I am not entirely certain what you are trying to say.  But if it is that his thinking makes sense but doesn't sound like much fun then that is kinda of the point.  But from his point of view risking some short term fun was also risking long term fun.  Or in other words he could indulge in something he found fun now and possibly miss out on thousands of dollars in the future which he could use for all sorts of other fun things later.  Given that he was from a rather poor family and hadn't exactly had an easy life and had seen what happens to people who take the easy way he was willing to go for the better long term solution and wait a little. 

    That is why its was an investment, short term sacrifice for long term gain.  People do it all the time everyday.  Back in the day taht is how people got through a hard winter.  Store a bunch stuff in the root cellar.  You just dont' wager what you have stored up there or you go hungry and die in the winter.  And starving is no fun.  Even if that stuff would have tasted better fresh instead of stored and dried.

    Most of these games are structured so that people are screwed either way.  Either you have PvP with much less edge or you have too much threat agaisnt heavily invested people.  For some PvP with no edge isn't much fun, for others losing a large investment is no fun.

    But what you seem to often get is people who want the edge but have no understanding of what it means to the behavior of people when they are heavily invested.  There is a reason you are required to have insurance when you buy a car.  There is a reason the vast majority of people take out insurance policies on their homes.

    When people invest the vast majority of them they go for safety.  People want crazy-ass pvp where they can completely bankrupt someone who worked for months to get where he is.  That is insane. Only people with gambling problems want to risk stuff like that.  Of course these games are dying.  People want a game with an edge in PvP fine sure.  If a person expects to be able to take everything a man worked for over the last 3 months and think that game is going to keep anyone who is sane then they need to take their head out of their posterior.  Almost no one will tolerate that.

    If you have a game that requires a heavy investment, like most MMORPG, then do not ever expect very many people to ever be happy with something that endangers the investment.  You either need a game that requires little investment, which most MMORPGers won't tolerate, or you need a means to protect yoru investment or mitigate your loss.  Why do you think Eve has insurance?  Do you know how many Eve players fly around without insurance?  Not many and those people are idiots.

    The amazing thing is there is a cadre of mouth-breathers on Eve who think insurance is dumb and takes the edge out of PvP.  Fine they can PvP in empty space against the other 4 people who have gambling problems.

    People will tolerate risk, they won't tolerate one step forward two steps back.  Without investment and progression most MMOs, except perhaps Guild Wars, are basically complete crap.    If you can take everything someone has you are implicitly undermining those two things.  Which means you are destroying your foundation and people will just leave.


  • ValaraukValarauk Member Posts: 303



    Originally posted by Bonzar
    I don't think that these kids should call themselves hardcore PvPrs.



    If you want to face real challenges and real consequences, do what the majority of us do; get involved in REAL LIFE. When I fuck up at work, the whole office knows it. I impact my chances at getting a raise or a promotion.



    Extremely well written argument Bonzar. I thought I'd add that as you point out the majority of "greifers" are, like you say, younger players and as a result have limited access to real challenges (or real consequences for that matter).  They tend to take the confrontation they can find with "real" people in a semi-competitive environment through MMORPGS very seriously.  Looking at things this way I don't find it too surprising that there is resistance to marginilizing the impact of their actions on other people.  Any such limiting of their ability to impact someone else takes the teeth out of the confrontation. That can make things less meaningful to those seeking confrontation (as opposed to those who like you are more interested in a competitive test of skill/ingenuity). 

    As long as there are people who enjoy greifing there are going to be games that allow it.

     


    WARNING: Spelling and grammatical errors intentionally left in document to test for Anal Retentive Trolls.


    "The key to wasting time is distraction. Without distractions it's too obvious to your brain that you're not doing anything with it, and you start to feel uncomfortable." - Paul Graham http://paulgraham.com/hs.html

  • misterfurioumisterfuriou Member Posts: 40

    Originally posted by
    Hi, so I'm curious - what is a non-carebear mmorpg nowadays? I played EQ1 a while, on and off, since pre-POP but slowly it became easier and easier and I still enjoy it but it maybe compromised too much. I tried EQ2, looks good and is fun, but kinda dull in the end, too linear, too user-friendly - it just wants to be liked! Tried WOW, again, nice looking but far too linear, too much like a train track without enough opportunity to go it alone. Tried Final Fantasy - got bored, Tried A Tale in the Desert - very good but I'm not a crafter, SWG - nice idea but what happened to the execution? Tried OU, but got bored of the interface. Tried Dungeon Siege - mmorpg for arcade-heads. (EDIT: Also played Anarchy Online, had fun but couldn't quite discover the point on an ongoing basis.) So I tried a few, and maybe a few more; some I spent a long time on, some not alot. But the trend seems to be going towards easy gameplay, nice graphics, unchallenging story line. I was considering Eve, but got a little retro instead and currently enjoying Shadowbane. So you guys who know, tell me, what should I be playing right now? What's challenging? Interesting? NON- Carebear (I don't need to be patronised by my games). Answers gratefully accepted.
    The answer is there are none. There are non carebear games Lineage 2 comes to mind. But there are no games that are actually worth anything.


    Former UO player searching for something even remotely close to what UO was...

  • goneglockingoneglockin Member UncommonPosts: 706



    Originally posted by Pantastic



     I find the 'I'm hardcore because I want this level of losing stuff, he's a carebear because he wants less loss, and this other guy's a fanatic because he wants more' attitude of yours extremely amusing.


    Nice to see that a dose of reality amuses you.  You're a fanatic.  No ones gonna play a permadeath MMORPG; cept you and the other several thousand fanatics.  Hell- make one yourselves, because no one's gonna waste their time making one for you.

    When you get a following that breaks a 100,000- call me.

    Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by goneglockin
    Nice to see that a dose of reality amuses you. You're a fanatic.

    That's interesting; on what do you base this claim? Me thinking it's silly to call people who want a game with higher loss in PVP than you 'fanatics' and people who want lower loss 'carebears'?


    No ones gonna play a permadeath MMORPG; cept you and the other several thousand fanatics.

    What exactly leads you to believe that I would play a permadeath MMORPG?

  • StellosStellos Member UncommonPosts: 1,491

    Yeah I miss the orginal hardcore PvP.  Most gamers these days don't understand what hardcore PvP is and they think WoW and EQ2 are hardcore lol.

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Man...this thread is sad! It's a real shame to see what MMORPG's have turned into!

    There is no risk anymore, there is no reward. You die, who cares? You just res and get straight back into the SAME fight - wow, how repetitive and boring!

    Dying should have consequences - there should be risks involved! It encourages people to play smarter, form tighter alliances and learn effective strategies and most importantly it keeps the game fresh and exciting!

    I remember the days when pvp fights had real consequences - when winning or losing fights actually meant something - when you actually felt triumphant in victories and felt a real sense of accomplishment. You would learn from your losses and strive and make yourself better...

    These days defeat and victories are both hollow and pointless. Bring back the days where my hands would literally shake during PVP, where adrenaline would flow through my body - knowing the outcome of battles actually meant something!

    ---------------------

    Alot of you also go on to say that AI doesn't cheat and fights fair? Give me a break. Walk up to a level 60 mob when you a level 5 and tell me if it discriminates as it pounds you to a pulp. You see level 60 mobs in WOW take down groups of level 60 characters - fair? balanced? I think not.

    But you learn from your mistakes, from your past experiences. You go back with better skills / strategies / a larger group. It is the same with PVP. If you get 'ganked' by someone much higher than you in PVP... you learn, you better yourself, you strive for that rematch and when it comes you feel overjoyed for hours aftering looting his mangled corpse.

    There is no feelings in today's games. You either have a 'normal' day or you won on the roll of a dice for that purple item. You have no bad days or negative feelings and nothing to overcome - everything is just safe.

    Safe is dull, boring, and what todays MMORPG's are.

    So sad.




  • SpeedMannSpeedMann Member UncommonPosts: 333
    Ever hear of First Person Shooters.


    ==================================================
    Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Originally posted by SpeedMann
    Ever hear of First Person Shooters.

    Ever head or Sims online or Kitty online ?

    I fail to see your point. Why should MMORPG's be restricted to killing monsters. It is a multiplayer game and confilt add's a whole now dimension to the game. If i wanted to kills mobs all day long i would play oblivion.
  • LackeyZeroLackeyZero Member Posts: 640

    First Person Shooter = skill/psychological warfare (as in predicting opponents movements)

    Strategy = similar idea as above

    Fighting/action = see above ( use alot more reflex, FPS does too though)

    RPG = Higher level = I win because I play all day and u don't... With the current crop of games, seriously it doesn't take much to understand how to play the game correctly. Extremely easy to get into. And u better yourself in this game by playing extensively longer than the other guy? "Yay I messed up my real life just to beat you. I feel really accomplished..."

    What you're looking for is a real "action" mmorpg... But none exists yet...And there probably won't be one for a long while atleast not much in depth one at all...

  • AethiosAethios Member Posts: 1,527


    Originally posted by osc8r

    Originally posted by SpeedMann
    Ever hear of First Person Shooters.


    Ever head or Sims online or Kitty online ?

    I fail to see your point. Why should MMORPG's be restricted to killing monsters. It is a multiplayer game and confilt add's a whole now dimension to the game. If i wanted to kills mobs all day long i would play oblivion.


    Nobody is suggesting they remove PvP entirely, but implying that the only PvP worth playing is the kind that causes you to lose your account is just silly. I love a good fight as much as the next guy, and I agree that WoW PvP is ridiculously softcore, but I don't want to lose everything I've got every time somebody decides it's funny to cheat/exploit/gank.

    Staking duels, where both players agree to risk losing a specific item or set amount of money, have their place in games, but it isn't on the open free-for-all PvP battlefield.

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Originally posted by Aethios

    Nobody is suggesting they remove PvP entirely, but implying that the only PvP worth playing is the kind that causes you to lose your account is just silly. I love a good fight as much as the next guy, and I agree that WoW PvP is ridiculously softcore, but I don't want to lose everything I've got every time somebody decides it's funny to cheat/exploit/gank.

    Staking duels, where both players agree to risk losing a specific item or set amount of money, have their place in games, but it isn't on the open free-for-all PvP battlefield.


    PVP doesn't cause you to 'lose your account'.
    Cheat/exploit - cheating and exploiting have no place in games period. It is the developers responsibility to ensure this doesn't take place.
    Ganking - deal with it, then seek revenge.
    If you kill people you get equipment as well, which you bank or keep in storage until needed. You are all focusing on when you lose battles - if you play smart / skilled you should be winning more than you are losing and this have plenty of equipment to keep you going.

    It seems a lot people have grown up with games like EQ and WOW being the norm. The good old days where you had to play smart and your actions had consequences are gone...where senseless PVE and PVP grinding is standard.

    I only hope darkfall to beta as the devleopers have been hinting.


  • goneglockingoneglockin Member UncommonPosts: 706



    Originally posted by Pantastic





    No ones gonna play a permadeath MMORPG; cept you and the other several thousand fanatics.

    What exactly leads you to believe that I would play a permadeath MMORPG?



    Because that's who I was calling fanatics about like 3 posts ago- the permadeath people.  It's just a bad idea.  In order to implement it to where it's tolerable for anyone but a sadist- you have to take too much out of the character development to make it worth playing.

    When people are talking about permadeath; they're most commonly talking about completely negating however much you've put into your character since you started... i.e. losing everything.  It doesn't sit well with most anyone; and that's why it is fanatical- extreme- over the top- etc.

    Maybe you just missed the point.  There's a stark difference between different levels of loss and flat out permadeath.

    Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.

  • Archon2021Archon2021 Member Posts: 51
    Yeah "Hardcore" PvP doesnt have to involve looting.  I love pvp myself, pretty hardcore fan of it I guess, but I completely oppose the idea of looting in PvP, because in most games there are OTHER aspects becides PvP, it can still be a heavy PvP based game with PvE gear thats a bit hard to obtain and then to lose it in PvP doesnt make you hardcore, it makes you a griefer.  Most games you play nowadays have crappy PvP systems, but the future isnt looking very grim, theres a bunch of games to look forward to, WAR for one.


    Archon @ Warhammer Alliance

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688

    Originally posted by Archon2021
    Yeah "Hardcore" PvP doesnt have to involve looting.  I love pvp myself, pretty hardcore fan of it I guess, but I completely oppose the idea of looting in PvP, because in most games there are OTHER aspects becides PvP, it can still be a heavy PvP based game with PvE gear thats a bit hard to obtain and then to lose it in PvP doesnt make you hardcore, it makes you a griefer.  Most games you play nowadays have crappy PvP systems, but the future isnt looking very grim, theres a bunch of games to look forward to, WAR for one.
    Thats why you play smart? You don't go carrying around items that you wouldn't be able to handle losing. Don't forget should you be half decent you should also be gaining a lot of equipment from people you kill. Also, if you die there is no guarantee you are going to get looted.

    I have no idea why everyone is getting so attached to their items? I mean, is everyone envisioning WOW when we talk about PVP looting? That game is a item fest and is not what we envision when we talk about a skill based (player skill) open PVP game with full loot. Item's should NOT make the character.

    PVP with no looting is just like PVE except with (generally speaking) better AI. There are no consequences, risks or rewards. It just feels a whole level of interaction has been removed - real politics, real friends, trust, real enemies and threats, real feelings, actual risks, actual rewards etc.. that are all part of an open loot FFA PVP game. IMO this is what stops MMORPG's from becoming dull, repetitive and boring.


  • goneglockingoneglockin Member UncommonPosts: 706

    Most of the crap you lost in UO was pretty replaceable.  At least until they started coming up with wacky armors and weapons that were a pain in the ass to make and cost a fortune.  I think any open PvP game with loot needs to forget about fancy combat items.  Customizeable?  Sure.  Worth more than a couple hours worth of work?  No way.

    Leave the pixel crack to the area of house decor and useless crap like that.  Combat items should not be rares.

    Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.

  • busdriverbusdriver Member Posts: 859
    Part of me wants looting because it opens up new career options, such as a robber. Part of it is because it offers an excellent death penalty/PvP reward system. The biggest thing is that it feels realistic, it makes the game feel more like a virtual fantasy world rather than a computer game.

    Truely hardcore PvP, means permadeath, would only work if character development took very short time, and even then it would be basically same as stat/experience lost since you have to grind mobs to get where you were.

    Looting in PvP is MUCH better than experience loss, because you can always prepare yourself in advance by getting spare armoury to your bank or go buy them from nearest crafter.

    Corpse run is just laughable, just shows the lacg of imagination of game developers.



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