Originally posted by Awakened Perhaps you can't read well.
I can read just fine, I just don't buy the complete BS the 'hardcore' PVP crowd repeats.
People are keen on looting because it gives them a reason to do something.
That something is 'gank people and take their stuff', and it doesn't provide a 'reason', just the ability to do so. They're keen on looting because it lets them play the bully role and take a shot at messing up someone else's day, if that wasn't their motive they wouldn't focus on looting but would instead talk about PVP rewards.
It's no different than leveling. Killing monsters is dull, boring, and pointless, but people do it for that "ding".
It's very different than leveling, because leveling doesn't require taking anything from other players. It's also interesting that you say that killing monsters is 'pointless', even though you get loot from them which is allegedly what makes PVP 'pointful'. Can you explain the difference, or is it just that killing mosnters is pointless because they're not bothering a person when they do it?
Looting itself isn't really an awe-inspiring event, but it gives a reward for killing people.
No, it gives a penalty for dying in PVP. You can have PVP rewards without the 'gank people and take their stuff' mechanic; for example, DAOC has a lot of PVP rewards but no looting of players, and WAR is slated to have drops in PVP but no loss for the defeated player. If people want a reward for killing people, they would ask to get a reward and not to give out a punishment.
I explained this in my previous post when I was talking about "risk versus reward"...
I didn't really want to get into "risk versus reward" silliness, since in general full-loot PVP is about minimizing risk not taking higher risks for higher rewards.
Good lord
1) You keep associating looting with griefing. You keep associating looting with loosing important and valuable assests. You keep doing this despite very clear efforts from other people to explain to you that looting does not always mean being griefed and/or loosing important assests. I don't think you really understand how successful looting systems work, though I'm pretty sure it's been explained to you several times. Quite frankly it sounds to me like you played a game, got looted, got butt hurt over it, and no have a personal vendetta against it.
2) You said earlier looting from players was pointless, so how could looting from monsters be any more important? It's the same difference, just from different sources. I just assumed you thought all looting was pointless, and was trying to agree with you.
3) Good god, looting someone is "punishing" them? Looting is a reward, you may not call it that in your fantasy land of candy, but to anyone else who kills something and get loots out of it, it's a reward. I played DAoC and never felt rewarded for PvP. Ooo, you could go to the website and check your rank. Looting isn't the only reward, but it's the most satisfying, it's a physical gift for defeating your opponent, and yes, you do take a little something from them.
4) I don't know how open looting equals minimizing risk? Are you saying killing Jawba the giant beetle in the lands of Cumingetme is a higher risk? Maybe because he passes gas that sometiomes leaks out of the keyboard?
Bleh, every month there's an arguement over this, I think I'll let you go on without me from here.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Biggest carebears in my experience are PvPers that whine because " There aren't any fair fights and there's too much ganking of newbies ". People that just PvE I don't consider carebears although they do provide more hate mail than PvPers .
Hardcore PvPer = Someone who plays to PvP, everything he/she does in the game is directed to improving their PvP ability.
Carebear = A PvPer that whines because the fight wasn't fair.
Why don't more people take pride in being a hardcore PvEer? Or hardcore scammer?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Originally posted by Awakened 1) You keep associating looting with griefing. You keep associating looting with loosing important and valuable assests.
Of course I do, because I understand what the terms mean. The only reason someone would want PVP looting to the exclusion of PVP rewards systems is that it enables them to inflict punishment on other people; if the 'hardcore' crowd just wanted rewards, they'd argue for rewards instead of specifically for a system then enables them to grief other people.
You keep doing this despite very clear efforts from other people to explain to you that looting does not always mean being griefed and/or loosing important assests. I don't think you really understand how successful looting systems work, though I'm pretty sure it's been explained to you several times.
I understand quite well, but it hasn't been 'explained' by you, you've just done the typical 'hardcore' PVP bit of using long words like 'consequences purpose risk versus reward' to try to obscure your desire to beat people up and take their stuff, which is exactly what looting players is.
Quite frankly it sounds to me like you played a game, got looted, got butt hurt over it, and no have a personal vendetta against it.
Ahh, that's the surest sign that my arguments are correct, the 'you have a personal vendeatta because you failed at it' accusation. I treat those as equivalent to 'Pantastic, you are absolutely right in everything you've said on this topic, I'm just hoping you go away so I look less foolish'.
3) Good god, looting someone is "punishing" them?
Yes, it's inflicting a penalty on them, it's the opposite of rewarding them. Do you need a link to dictionary.com to understand basic English? It's not a complex concept.
Looting is a reward, you may not call it that in your fantasy land of candy, but to anyone else who kills something and get loots out of it, it's a reward.
And to the person who gets killed and losed loots out of it, it's a punishment. And that punishment is what you revel in, not the supposed reward; if it was the reward, you'd be fine with getting something for beating someone but them not actually losing anything.
4) I don't know how open looting equals minimizing risk?
Then you should observe actual behavior in 'hardcore' PVP games like EVE. Can you explain a situation where someone would risk more to get more rewards in a 'hardcore' PVP environment? I've never observed that behavior.
Originally posted by siftified Simple. Hunting for gold/items is boring as hell for some players. If they can PvP (which is what they really want to do) and get the same kinds of rewards as hunting mobs, then that's what they'll do.
If you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the 'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
Originally posted by GungaDin Yeah bascially 15 mins to get enough gold to outfit yourself easily, but if you hunted an 1-2 hours, that gold might supply you for a week. Thats what I meant. You wouldnt just hunt till you had enough gold for 1 suit of armor, within an hour you could have enough for alot of items. It was pretty easy.
So if the gear is so trivial that you can PVP for a week on an hour of farming, how does it being lootable make the fights more enjoyable for you? People talk about PVP looting like it's the Holy Grail, because it Gives Meaning, Provides Consequences, and Risk Versus Reward, but how much meaning does looting completely trivial gear add to a fight?
Well if you win a battle you might get some reagents to save you some money, also weapons and armor. Maybe a magical weapon for some bonus pleasure. You could hunt crafters too and get their ingots or boards. Lots of advantages. Of course you could mine for an hour and if you werent careful someone could come and rob you of your ingots. Very frustrating but my first character was a miner. It was very frustrating but exciting as well, you always had to be wary of who approached you ingame. I loved it even when I died and lost my ingots.
So you had the pleasure of gathering a resource and the chance for a PVP encounter. One time I took out a Murdered by unleashing some explosion potions on him and my miner has GM swords which I used to Poison him and then finished him off. It was very lucky and I only pulled that off once but it was the best PVP experience I've ever had. You have less chance of that type of encounter in today's games.
You never wanted to die because it did have some consequences. However it wasnt enough to really stop you from playing. If anything , the challenge of learning how to survive and avoid being killed is what kept me playing. Once I learned to adapt it was fantastic. Sometimes you would have to watchout for being killed in your house.
The main consequences was losing time to go get resurrected and the loot you had. Again, it didnt set you back that far but enough to make you want to live. I thought it was very well balanced.
*** The main point is, your facing other people, not AI. Fighting that person gives you the thrill of a battle and some rewards in the spoils !!! The reason I play online is to interact and compete against others. PVM or AI is just a side to fill in some time or a change of pace. But if the game doesnt have that human to human setup, then I see no point in playing online. Otherwise just get Neverwinter Nights and enjoy that.
Originally posted by siftified Simple. Hunting for gold/items is boring as hell for some players. If they can PvP (which is what they really want to do) and get the same kinds of rewards as hunting mobs, then that's what they'll do.
If you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the 'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
What I was talking about was the fact that in AC death items, which were gained from killing mobs were dropped by players every time they died. Therefore, killing a player and taking his items meant that you could go for longer periods of time without having farm any mobs for your own. In fact, players also gave the chance of dropping nice tinkered/crafted items if they did not have the right death items to cover the value, making them much more fun and exciting to kill.
I don't think you PvP'ers will be left out. Check out Warhammer online, RvR! That's what makes PvP even WORTH doing PVP!!!
You might only say PvP has any real purpose only if you can take items or coins from the killed foe. But let's get down to earth, PvP is much more than the items! It's about the honor or about the glory of successfully taking over a new enemy territory or when after a long hard fight managed to keep the land you fought for yours.
All MMORPG's alike PvP really isn't anything special. You might get a little gold.... or exp, but that's it. But if we can see elements of sandboxing or permanent death (or very very very VERY rough death penalities) PvP suddenly get's a new meaning...
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Originally posted by shadoozo Well it seems us hardcore PVP lovers lost the war, it seems carebears have now won, all games being released currently are carebear, PVP in games no is a joke, "Oh we dont want to be killed and have our loot stolen cause i might cry" type players have now won the war.
UO will never get a pre trammle server, shadowbane is extremly unplayable due to its bugs,interface etc
Hardcore PVP is lost, i use to count on darkfall but that seems like a lost cause, a game that was supposed to be released in 2003 still hasnt been released yet and we still dont have ALOT of updated info on that game, seems like a lost cause.
WELP time to give in hardcore PVPers and join the carebears, RAID OR DIE!
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by siftified Simple. Hunting for gold/items is boring as hell for some players. If they can PvP (which is what they really want to do) and get the same kinds of rewards as hunting mobs, then that's what they'll do.
If you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the 'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
I'm a hardcore PVP'er and all for full-loot open PVP with consequences. But I don't gank or grief. I'm more apt to help someone than attack them and I'm perfectly willing to take risks when I fight.
Having said that, PVP looting creates item churn and eventual decay, which drives crafting and the player economy. It helps reduce inflation if done correctly and is good for the game. To have a system where a player kills another player and gets to loot something while the defeated player loses nothing has to be, by far, one of the most moronic ideas I've ever heard. The resulting inflation would be retarded.
I hate that most current MMO's are so gear based but I guess the sheeple are easily led.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by gestalt11 You are equating it all to "ganking" and I think therefore griefing.
The reason people want to loot is to be able to cause other people grief, yes. No one has yet to say anything contrary, they just try to make it sound better by going on about 'consequences' and 'meaning'.
Sure griefing is part of it, but pirates also do it for profit and also for the risk taking adrenaline rush.
So square this back with the original comment that prompted this sub-discussion, where the person claimed that in a looting PVP game equipement would be trivially replaceable. If the gear pirates are looting is trivial to get, how are they making significant profit on it? It appears to me that you're agreeing that the 'gear can be easily replaced' bit is pure nonsense.
And the adrenaline rush bit is just silly; you don't need to be able to take stuff from other people to get that rush, and most people get it just from playing the game. If pirates were really enjoying risk taking, they'd load their ship up with valuables instead of using cheap-but-effective ships that they don't really mind losing.
I don't think old UO can really be said to be analogous to Eve in this way, but the point is that there is more to it than just pure griefing.
OK, then what is the 'more to it'? You've neglected to explain that. Yeah, yeah, we all know there's something about 'power structure sandbox consequences meaning purpose', try to avoid using those words and say what's really meant. Bear in mind that I don't consider 'won a video game fight in which I took the guys stuff' to be any more meaningfull that 'won a video game fight' when you do this.
Ok. Let's make this as simple as possible to distill out all other extraneous bits.
Suppose my corporation in Eve has set a goal to control a certain system. How do we enforce our will? How do we prevent people from mining our asteroids? We destroy their ship or threaten to destroy their ships. This could be pure griefing or some more orderly "You get two warnings" type thing. But given that we are in fact able to destroy all comers it will in fact result in us controling that system. Also once people know we control that system and destroy all comers, then anyone coming in their isn't being griefed, they are trespassers and will be shot so to speak. Signs have been psoted and all that.
If PvP is like WoW, where you just spawn at some GY with no loss, then this would clearly not work, correct? After all people can just keep coming. There is no attrition. The horde never actually takes control of South Shore does it? Not really not in any real sense. You are just fightign the same guys again 30 seconds later.
I am not adovcating for "hardcore" PvP. I don't care and I think anyone who applies the word "hardcore" to any gaming needs some help. A good smack in the head kinda help.
But it should be obvious looting/loss in PvP has a certain effect on things. Just the fact that there is attrittion has serious consequences for the wars between Corporations. Each system lost and each ship lost is a source/sink of material that is lost and therefore effects your overall war effort. Attrition is an important part of the struggle of system control in a game like Eve. Technically you don't need looting, the simple ship destruction is enough but they are essentially similar except the looting aspect allow for the possibilty of some profit besides just ransom via predatory activities. In point of fact this simple mechanics and the economy behind it are one of the reasons that Eve is actually a strategic game as well as a tactical game. I am fairly certain that no other MMO can claim this except maybe Ryzom.
Now you can have something like what Age of Conan proposes to do with Keeps and sieges in the border land instances but it should be clear that those differ in a number of ways and do not sound nearly as much of a sandbox game.
If you can't accept that attrition is a fundamentally important and far reaching mechanic then I am not sure what to tell you.
It is certainly not necessary to implement attrition. WoW has none that is worth mentioning and works fine. But certainly having it in your game changes it in fundamental ways. When a corporation loses a war its has really lost more than just prestige. Attrition means that what they are fighting over gives them an edge of penalizes them. There is a reason the German tanks in the battle of the Bulge were making a huge push for the gasoline reserves of the enemy. There is a reason the Allies were desparate to stop them from being resupplied.
By having attrition and control by violence you are much better able to capture that sort of thing.
You know what, one of the best moments in my MMORPG history was getting killed by a player twice my level. It was on AC, i was doing my atlan quest and has just made the run through the crater for the items needed (worth quite a bit of $'s). I teleported back near town and was standing on the road crafting the items together when i see a red dot on my radar...
My heart started beating faster, i ID'd the guy as a Blood, a monarchy we were at war with (we were antis). My hands started shaking, i knew if i died i there would be larger than usual consequences - i would drop my expensive quest items! My hands started shaking, the adrenaline kicked in... should i run? should i fight? can i get away? tactics? (so many thoughts running through my head)
I stood my ground and went toe to toe with him. It was the most intense fight i have ever had, i fought well, trading blows for a good 5 minutes...got him down to 30% health, but i fell in the end. I dropped the quest items as well as few death items (jewellery).
I made the run back to my corpse to find he had looted me. I messaged him asking if i could get the items back (politics) or trade for the quest item i needed. He had already sold them, though he thanked me for the great fight and for being so honourable / brave.
I learnt from my mistake, i redid the quest but in a more secluded area. I gathered up a few friends and went on the hunt for my murderer.
EXCITING!
Now, how would that have gone down in WOW?
Assuming theres a quest that gives you a decent reward (that doesnt require a 20 man group and 5 hours of your time) -
I get the quest item, im in town, crafting the items together. I see an alliance dwarf running towards me, i see he's 5 levels higher than me - i know im going to die, but do i care? No. I fight him as well as i can, i die, i resurrect and put my quest item together and go on grinding for more items. The fight meant nothing, my death meant nothing.
BORING!
And politics...where friends and clans actually mean something. Where guilds would go to war, KOS (kill on sight) orders given. Where you could actually take over and hold towns for more than 5 minutes (or the time it takes for your ghost to ressurect in WOW) and true alliances could be formed.
I really have trouble seeing why people play MMORPG's just for the PVE? It seems player interaction are at a very basic level, where groups are FORCED upon you. Where everyone goes through the same grind. Where the UBER players walk around town showing off their new EPIC gear they spent months grinding / rolling dice for.
In comparison to single player RPG's like oblivion, that have a real story, where you feel like the actual hero, where quests are a lot more in depth than 'collect 5 mushrooms'.
PVP offers so much, yet people these days only know WOW, with it's gear dependant requirements and sub sub par PVP.
Comments
I can read just fine, I just don't buy the complete BS the 'hardcore' PVP crowd repeats.
That something is 'gank people and take their stuff', and it doesn't provide a 'reason', just the ability to do so. They're keen on looting because it lets them play the bully role and take a shot at messing up someone else's day, if that wasn't their motive they wouldn't focus on looting but would instead talk about PVP rewards.
It's very different than leveling, because leveling doesn't require taking anything from other players. It's also interesting that you say that killing monsters is 'pointless', even though you get loot from them which is allegedly what makes PVP 'pointful'. Can you explain the difference, or is it just that killing mosnters is pointless because they're not bothering a person when they do it?
No, it gives a penalty for dying in PVP. You can have PVP rewards without the 'gank people and take their stuff' mechanic; for example, DAOC has a lot of PVP rewards but no looting of players, and WAR is slated to have drops in PVP but no loss for the defeated player. If people want a reward for killing people, they would ask to get a reward and not to give out a punishment.
I didn't really want to get into "risk versus reward" silliness, since in general full-loot PVP is about minimizing risk not taking higher risks for higher rewards.
Good lord
1) You keep associating looting with griefing. You keep associating looting with loosing important and valuable assests. You keep doing this despite very clear efforts from other people to explain to you that looting does not always mean being griefed and/or loosing important assests. I don't think you really understand how successful looting systems work, though I'm pretty sure it's been explained to you several times. Quite frankly it sounds to me like you played a game, got looted, got butt hurt over it, and no have a personal vendetta against it.
2) You said earlier looting from players was pointless, so how could looting from monsters be any more important? It's the same difference, just from different sources. I just assumed you thought all looting was pointless, and was trying to agree with you.
3) Good god, looting someone is "punishing" them? Looting is a reward, you may not call it that in your fantasy land of candy, but to anyone else who kills something and get loots out of it, it's a reward. I played DAoC and never felt rewarded for PvP. Ooo, you could go to the website and check your rank. Looting isn't the only reward, but it's the most satisfying, it's a physical gift for defeating your opponent, and yes, you do take a little something from them.
4) I don't know how open looting equals minimizing risk? Are you saying killing Jawba the giant beetle in the lands of Cumingetme is a higher risk? Maybe because he passes gas that sometiomes leaks out of the keyboard?
Bleh, every month there's an arguement over this, I think I'll let you go on without me from here.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
Biggest carebears in my experience are PvPers that whine because " There aren't any fair fights and there's too much ganking of newbies ". People that just PvE I don't consider carebears although they do provide more hate mail than PvPers
.
Hardcore PvPer = Someone who plays to PvP, everything he/she does in the game is directed to improving their PvP ability.
Carebear = A PvPer that whines because the fight wasn't fair.
Why don't more people take pride in being a hardcore PvEer? Or hardcore scammer?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Of course I do, because I understand what the terms mean. The only reason someone would want PVP looting to the exclusion of PVP rewards systems is that it enables them to inflict punishment on other people; if the 'hardcore' crowd just wanted rewards, they'd argue for rewards instead of specifically for a system then enables them to grief other people.
I understand quite well, but it hasn't been 'explained' by you, you've just done the typical 'hardcore' PVP bit of using long words like 'consequences purpose risk versus reward' to try to obscure your desire to beat people up and take their stuff, which is exactly what looting players is.
Ahh, that's the surest sign that my arguments are correct, the 'you have a personal vendeatta because you failed at it' accusation. I treat those as equivalent to 'Pantastic, you are absolutely right in everything you've said on this topic, I'm just hoping you go away so I look less foolish'.
Yes, it's inflicting a penalty on them, it's the opposite of rewarding them. Do you need a link to dictionary.com to understand basic English? It's not a complex concept.
And to the person who gets killed and losed loots out of it, it's a punishment. And that punishment is what you revel in, not the supposed reward; if it was the reward, you'd be fine with getting something for beating someone but them not actually losing anything.
Then you should observe actual behavior in 'hardcore' PVP games like EVE. Can you explain a situation where someone would risk more to get more rewards in a 'hardcore' PVP environment? I've never observed that behavior.
I see alot of people crying because they can't steal other people's items.
If that's the case then cry more plz.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
If you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the 'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
So if the gear is so trivial that you can PVP for a week on an hour of farming, how does it being lootable make the fights more enjoyable for you? People talk about PVP looting like it's the Holy Grail, because it Gives Meaning, Provides Consequences, and Risk Versus Reward, but how much meaning does looting completely trivial gear add to a fight?
Well if you win a battle you might get some reagents to save you some money, also weapons and armor. Maybe a magical weapon for some bonus pleasure. You could hunt crafters too and get their ingots or boards. Lots of advantages. Of course you could mine for an hour and if you werent careful someone could come and rob you of your ingots. Very frustrating but my first character was a miner. It was very frustrating but exciting as well, you always had to be wary of who approached you ingame. I loved it even when I died and lost my ingots.
So you had the pleasure of gathering a resource and the chance for a PVP encounter. One time I took out a Murdered by unleashing some explosion potions on him and my miner has GM swords which I used to Poison him and then finished him off. It was very lucky and I only pulled that off once but it was the best PVP experience I've ever had. You have less chance of that type of encounter in today's games.
You never wanted to die because it did have some consequences. However it wasnt enough to really stop you from playing. If anything , the challenge of learning how to survive and avoid being killed is what kept me playing. Once I learned to adapt it was fantastic. Sometimes you would have to watchout for being killed in your house.
The main consequences was losing time to go get resurrected and the loot you had. Again, it didnt set you back that far but enough to make you want to live. I thought it was very well balanced.
*** The main point is, your facing other people, not AI. Fighting that person gives you the thrill of a battle and some rewards in the spoils !!! The reason I play online is to interact and compete against others. PVM or AI is just a side to fill in some time or a change of pace. But if the game doesnt have that human to human setup, then I see no point in playing online. Otherwise just get Neverwinter Nights and enjoy that.
If you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the 'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
What I was talking about was the fact that in AC death items, which were gained from killing mobs were dropped by players every time they died. Therefore, killing a player and taking his items meant that you could go for longer periods of time without having farm any mobs for your own. In fact, players also gave the chance of dropping nice tinkered/crafted items if they did not have the right death items to cover the value, making them much more fun and exciting to kill.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I don't think you PvP'ers will be left out. Check out Warhammer online, RvR! That's what makes PvP even WORTH doing PVP!!!
You might only say PvP has any real purpose only if you can take items or coins from the killed foe. But let's get down to earth, PvP is much more than the items! It's about the honor or about the glory of successfully taking over a new enemy territory or when after a long hard fight managed to keep the land you fought for yours.
All MMORPG's alike PvP really isn't anything special. You might get a little gold.... or exp, but that's it. But if we can see elements of sandboxing or permanent death (or very very very VERY rough death penalities) PvP suddenly get's a new meaning...
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
theres lots of pvp games coming out
www.ageofconan.com
www.warhammeronline.com
www.thronesofchaos.com
and theres probably more
If
you're responding to my point above yours, this doens't work as an
answer. In the example looting system, spending a week killing players
gives rewards equivalent to a couple of hours of hunting mobs, so it's
far worse reward than fighting mobs. And it doesn't explain the
'hardcore' obsession with 'take things from other players' and derison
of 'get rewards from winning in PVP'.
I'm
a hardcore PVP'er and all for full-loot open PVP with consequences. But
I don't gank or grief. I'm more apt to help someone than attack them
and I'm perfectly willing to take risks when I fight.
Having said that, PVP looting creates item churn and eventual decay,
which drives crafting and the player economy. It helps reduce inflation
if done correctly and is good for the game. To have a system where a
player kills another player and gets to loot something while the
defeated player loses nothing has to be, by far, one of the most
moronic ideas I've ever heard. The resulting inflation would be
retarded.
I hate that most current MMO's are so gear based but I guess the sheeple are easily led.
The reason people want to loot is to be able to cause other people grief, yes. No one has yet to say anything contrary, they just try to make it sound better by going on about 'consequences' and 'meaning'.
So square this back with the original comment that prompted this sub-discussion, where the person claimed that in a looting PVP game equipement would be trivially replaceable. If the gear pirates are looting is trivial to get, how are they making significant profit on it? It appears to me that you're agreeing that the 'gear can be easily replaced' bit is pure nonsense.
And the adrenaline rush bit is just silly; you don't need to be able to take stuff from other people to get that rush, and most people get it just from playing the game. If pirates were really enjoying risk taking, they'd load their ship up with valuables instead of using cheap-but-effective ships that they don't really mind losing.
OK, then what is the 'more to it'? You've neglected to explain that. Yeah, yeah, we all know there's something about 'power structure sandbox consequences meaning purpose', try to avoid using those words and say what's really meant. Bear in mind that I don't consider 'won a video game fight in which I took the guys stuff' to be any more meaningfull that 'won a video game fight' when you do this.
Ok. Let's make this as simple as possible to distill out all other extraneous bits.
Suppose my corporation in Eve has set a goal to control a certain system. How do we enforce our will? How do we prevent people from mining our asteroids? We destroy their ship or threaten to destroy their ships. This could be pure griefing or some more orderly "You get two warnings" type thing. But given that we are in fact able to destroy all comers it will in fact result in us controling that system. Also once people know we control that system and destroy all comers, then anyone coming in their isn't being griefed, they are trespassers and will be shot so to speak. Signs have been psoted and all that.
If PvP is like WoW, where you just spawn at some GY with no loss, then this would clearly not work, correct? After all people can just keep coming. There is no attrition. The horde never actually takes control of South Shore does it? Not really not in any real sense. You are just fightign the same guys again 30 seconds later.
I am not adovcating for "hardcore" PvP. I don't care and I think anyone who applies the word "hardcore" to any gaming needs some help. A good smack in the head kinda help.
But it should be obvious looting/loss in PvP has a certain effect on things. Just the fact that there is attrittion has serious consequences for the wars between Corporations. Each system lost and each ship lost is a source/sink of material that is lost and therefore effects your overall war effort. Attrition is an important part of the struggle of system control in a game like Eve. Technically you don't need looting, the simple ship destruction is enough but they are essentially similar except the looting aspect allow for the possibilty of some profit besides just ransom via predatory activities. In point of fact this simple mechanics and the economy behind it are one of the reasons that Eve is actually a strategic game as well as a tactical game. I am fairly certain that no other MMO can claim this except maybe Ryzom.
Now you can have something like what Age of Conan proposes to do with Keeps and sieges in the border land instances but it should be clear that those differ in a number of ways and do not sound nearly as much of a sandbox game.
If you can't accept that attrition is a fundamentally important and far reaching mechanic then I am not sure what to tell you.
It is certainly not necessary to implement attrition. WoW has none that is worth mentioning and works fine. But certainly having it in your game changes it in fundamental ways. When a corporation loses a war its has really lost more than just prestige. Attrition means that what they are fighting over gives them an edge of penalizes them. There is a reason the German tanks in the battle of the Bulge were making a huge push for the gasoline reserves of the enemy. There is a reason the Allies were desparate to stop them from being resupplied.
By having attrition and control by violence you are much better able to capture that sort of thing.
You know what, one of the best moments in my MMORPG history was getting killed by a player twice my level. It was on AC, i was doing my atlan quest and has just made the run through the crater for the items needed (worth quite a bit of $'s). I teleported back near town and was standing on the road crafting the items together when i see a red dot on my radar...
My heart started beating faster, i ID'd the guy as a Blood, a monarchy we were at war with (we were antis). My hands started shaking, i knew if i died i there would be larger than usual consequences - i would drop my expensive quest items! My hands started shaking, the adrenaline kicked in... should i run? should i fight? can i get away? tactics? (so many thoughts running through my head)
I stood my ground and went toe to toe with him. It was the most intense fight i have ever had, i fought well, trading blows for a good 5 minutes...got him down to 30% health, but i fell in the end. I dropped the quest items as well as few death items (jewellery).
I made the run back to my corpse to find he had looted me. I messaged him asking if i could get the items back (politics) or trade for the quest item i needed. He had already sold them, though he thanked me for the great fight and for being so honourable / brave.
I learnt from my mistake, i redid the quest but in a more secluded area. I gathered up a few friends and went on the hunt for my murderer.
EXCITING!
Now, how would that have gone down in WOW?
Assuming theres a quest that gives you a decent reward (that doesnt require a 20 man group and 5 hours of your time) -
I get the quest item, im in town, crafting the items together. I see an alliance dwarf running towards me, i see he's 5 levels higher than me - i know im going to die, but do i care? No. I fight him as well as i can, i die, i resurrect and put my quest item together and go on grinding for more items. The fight meant nothing, my death meant nothing.
BORING!
And politics...where friends and clans actually mean something. Where guilds would go to war, KOS (kill on sight) orders given. Where you could actually take over and hold towns for more than 5 minutes (or the time it takes for your ghost to ressurect in WOW) and true alliances could be formed.
I really have trouble seeing why people play MMORPG's just for the PVE? It seems player interaction are at a very basic level, where groups are FORCED upon you. Where everyone goes through the same grind. Where the UBER players walk around town showing off their new EPIC gear they spent months grinding / rolling dice for.
In comparison to single player RPG's like oblivion, that have a real story, where you feel like the actual hero, where quests are a lot more in depth than 'collect 5 mushrooms'.
PVP offers so much, yet people these days only know WOW, with it's gear dependant requirements and sub sub par PVP.