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What's so cool about P vs. P?
Billius8
Member Posts: 574
This website, more than any I have seen, seems to have drawn the P vs P crowd (a few folks are overly vocal about it, not sure which). Before visiting this website, I had always thought P vs P'er's were the minority crowd, just a handful of gank-happy folks secluded on one or two special servers in a game.
Now P vs P in roleplaying mode could have its possibilities, but the reality of it (so far as I have seen) is that it' ends up being random juvenile ganking, sort of like you would see with an online shooter. If there could be meaningful (and balanced) P vs P, I would not necessarily oppose this, but I haven't really seen it. Even DAOC, which has realms, still ends up being a gankfest in the realms. That has to get old for some of you after awhile.
Maybe it's the adrenaline rush some folks get in a P vs P environment. But how fun is it to be ganked by someone 20 levels higher than yourself? Flip side to that, how fun and meaningful is it to gank someone 20 levels lower than yourself.
Maybe P vs P needs to be allowed, but as a lose-lose situation, where both sides in a fatal P vs P fight lose some experience (with the loser losing more). That might eliminate some of the random ganking going on, but still allow players to step up and "defend their honor" on occasion.
Guess there are "content players" (the P vs. E crowd, of which I am one) and "conflict players" (the P vs. P crowd, which I cannot relate to).
Comments
I'm taking bets on the total amount of replies this post will get...
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
PvP is not random ganking. Go read the thread that's 30 pages long. Every game is different. Saying PvP sucks is like saying food sucks, just because you have had one or two bad meals. Try playing Lineage 2. No one in that game just goes around killing people, even though they could if they wanted. But the penalties for becoming 'red' can have such a negative effect on your character, people usually only PK if there's a really good reason.
I think PvP is great. Granted, I haven't always enjoyed every instance of it that I've encountered. I'm thinking of the early days of UO personally. It seems I was always on the receiving end of some pretty serious PK action, but that was part of the rush at the same time. I didn't enjoy dying, but I sure liked risking my life trying to find a place to mine outside of town where I wouldn't be killed. Some spoil sports got in on both sides, and OSI (now just EA, sadly) ruined the whole thing with Trammel.
So there's no accounting for taste. Some people legitimately don't like to gamble. They like the (eventually) sure bet. Level long enough, and you'll kill that higher level creature that killed you a week ago. The gamble isn't inherently fun. It's just fun to those of us who like to gamble. I like that despite my higher level, someone else may get lucky and take me down. Or someone may gang up on my gang, and take us down. Is it what one might call a gankfest? Probably. Does that mean that it has no place in MMORPG. I think not.
I'm a big soloer (as I've said in a different thread), but I enjoy a good group from time to time too. In the same way I enjoy some PvE, but I also LOVE PvP, and in terms of environment, I prefer the MMORPG environment to the FPS environment. I like that I have to work and plan to create my killer char, and despite all my hard work, someone else may just be better than I am. Do my hands shake when I fight, and do I get pissed when I die? I wouldn't play the games if I didn't. The day PvP stops being exciting for me is the day I find something else to do with my time.
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"This is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper." -- T.S. Eliot
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" -- Dante Alighieri
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"This is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper." -- T.S. Eliot
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate" -- Dante Alighieri
Pvp i believe is one of the best parts of an MMORPG, the fact that you have to always be aware and ready for action, and have to preserve yourself in order to not be an easy target and all these other little factors that make the game more interesting. Granted it is really annoying at times, but i think it makes a game really fun and entertaining in the long run.
I always seem to be attacked by PvP players, but im ok with that and I at times also do PvP. Its also cool because it adds an element of reputation to the games. If you hear from someone that this one guy named so and so is a PK then you know right away to be on alert, and so they get less and less kills and are always being attacked in turn as revenge and so forth. Thats why i think pvp is cool.
I vote 100 posts easy... probably more.
And just to feed the fire.
PvP sucks... No games should have it.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
From my experience in PvP I find that it all really depends on the community and how you uphold yourself in the game. Granted you will come across the gankers (came across one last night in a game that I had no idea about and was just learning. He waited for me to respawn on my bind spot and continually killed me over and over till I quit) You can find it to be a lot of fun and rewarding (some of the greatest people I have met are the ones that just killed me or I them in a PvP fight).
Biggest thing to remember is what comes around, goes around. Play fair and honorably and you will see it gets back to you and the community and you will earn respect. Play like an arse and it can burn you in the end.
PvP isn't all about wanting to just ruin others game play or the need to *kill* things that you can actually get a reaction from (ok maybe a little
) Its something to break up the monotany of fighting unemotional pixels on the screen and more of a challenge sometimes 
I will only play a MMORPG if their is PVP, plain and simple. The level grind vs. AI mobs is just not something I find challenging or can enjoy long term. To me a game needs "competition" I guess being the best "guild" or having the coolest "lewt" just doesn't cut it for me.
I'm probably what most people here would call a "ganker" because I enjoy pvping for items. I don't enjoy things like coin-only loot because the thrill just isn't there for me. I need a high-risk and reward situation to get a real rush from PVP.
Now am I some immature jerk who uses PVP to get out my aggressions from real life? Not even close. I'm probably nothing like most "gankers" (and believe me I have come across my share of them who seem to get off when they ruin other peoples enjoyment of the game). Consider this (the way I played EQ PvP which is where most of my experience lies):
1. I will only fight in full armor and never bag my items to ensure I risked just as much as my targets. This gave me a huge adrenaline rush as losing was far worse for me than winning would net. Since I was a well reknowned PK who made a good fortune off it 99.9% of the time my items were far more valuable than my opponents and thus I "risked" far more. The few times I died my slayers were treated to a huge reward!
2. I would only kill an opponent once per day unless they instigated another fight (ie. helped one of my other victims, tried to get revenge etc.). I never harassed anyone and would consider them off limits after the kill for that day (even helping them if they needed it).
3. If my victim had a huge run back to his body or lost experience through my actions (ie. he ran and a monster killed him instead) I would log on my 55th level cleric (also a pvp'er though used less often) and exp-revive them.
4. I profited far more with my 55th level cleric most nights than my usual PVP character (kept at 35th level so that I had plenty of people in my level range to fight). My 55th level had fewer hours and could easily net me items/wealth quicker but it was less enjoyable for me to kill AI mobs. If people thought I pvp'd for items they were crazy. I would have been far wiser to just play my cleric.
5. I roleplayed the entire time and would not kill characters that roleplayed characters of the same diety and faction unless they aided my "enemies".
6. I often felt TERRIBLE after looting people but would never give items back because I knew I risked much more than them in most cases. I know full well they wouldn't return the favour.
7. I enjoyed having whole zones try to hunt me down and having the sight of my character send others fleeing. This is what I wanted the roleplay of my character to be (a notorious villian) and I suceeded.
8. I always killed other PVP'ers first and foremost. If they were famous as "griefers" I would continue to kill/attack them until they fled the area and left the zone alone. These are the type of PKs that give the rest of us a bad name. They are #1 on my list.
9. I never transferred wealth between characters. My PK character earned everything he got. No twinking here.
I could go on but I think that's enough to get my point across. Some of you will still think I am just some "jerk" ganker and that's ok. We will never see eye to eye on this issue. I will never understand how you can enjoy a non-pvp MMORPG and likewise you will never understand my attraction to PVP. Still try to understand that not all PVPers are the same. You will meet some bad seeds and you will meet some great people who simply enjoy the rush we get from the extra intensity and risk.
To me that is what is "cool" about PvP. The greater challenges, risk and rewards and the rush that comes with them. I hate knowing my play style may ruin someones night but I have to play this way or it will ruin MY night. No one forced them to play on the PVP server or game so I don't think I'm in the wrong here for thinking that way. There are plenty of games with non-pvp options.
Hrm, you sound like an anti to me. Which if you dont know what that is, its somone who claims to be a good PvPer. (always found rather hypocrisy in them, except that at some times they wouldnt murder each other who claimed to be anti's, but thats most likely because there were so few of them)
Most would consider me a jerk, a ganker. Blah blah blah, list goes on. Why do I do it? Well its fun, and in a way sort of rewarding, I mean I always liked killing people, no matter level, for their loot, I liked to collect loot, I became a wealthy player, with many different items. I enjoyed being infamous. I would play with my brother on AC1, and we were infamous to the infamous! It was great, killing PvPers, killing everyone, you were hated, and feared, by all. Imo even though some may consider you jackasses, it had a deep roleplaying to it; a feared criminal and the sort. I mean not like i'm anything like this in real life, which I suppose is why I play as such. Hence roleplaying.
But, I'm a nice dude in real life, and sometimes i'd help the newbies out, or kill them, but it didnt really matter because at a low level it was really no penalty.
I played alot of characters during my almost 3 years of playing AC1, first I started out as a good side, went to the dark side, then created my own large guild of PK'ers, then it fell apart (cant remember how exactly) then after awhile joined another guild, they started to piss me off (they were evil) so even started killing them.
Most people think roleplaying means a level grind, but imo, a game without PvP, removes so much of true roleplaying games, that its horrid.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Is it time already for Billius8's monthly anti-PvP post?
How time flys.
See you next week Billus when you complain about Mythica getting cancled for 5th time.
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Make no mistake, MMORPG's are not games, they are hobbies. If you have a job, you'll need to give up watching TV in order to play one. You'll be better off for it.
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
I am hoping for some PvP with a strategic purpose. Fight to gain territory and its rare resources, develop your territory while defending your gains, and do this in a role-play context. In this sort of game the players make the story so there will never be a dull moment. This also rquires a player based economy with clan taxes on the economy it controls feeding the fighters.
Yet, such a game is challenging to do right and no game out at the moment does it well. Zerging, griefing, and battle lag are a big concern. I have lots of hope for Dark and Light. Other possibilities include Dragon Empires, Darkfall, and Saga of Ryzom.
PvP is a different challenge of every moment.
I actually love PvP, I hate real time non-stop PvP of every moment, this is why as long as the game dont enforce it(if you need to do PvP to earn anything but PvP uberness, you enforce it), I look warmly on the PvP aspect even if I will most likely not do it.
Roleplay and PvP...well, I dont know of many persons that attack every players and leave every NPCs alone in a roleplaying setting, there can be great roleplaying in every situation, PvP or not. To say PvP encourage roleplaying is so wrong, it kill it more then anything with all the pro-Quake players.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Well, I can tolerate limited P vs P in a game (i.e. arena areas, duels, etc) and I do think that faction is a very necessary aspect of P vs P. If someone is a PK'er, then the NPC guards will keep them out of town, stuff like that.
But total, unbridled P vs P makes for a different kind of game. What fantasy heroes of literature had to constantly worry about every day robbers and such? Could you see the Fellowship from LOTR saying, "We ought to avoid this town here. I know we need supplies, but there are a lot of folks who might gank us. Best to go through the Misty Mountains instead where there are only monsters to deal with."
To have P vs P and a believable fantasy environment, I think you have to have serious consequences for out-of-control ganking. Otherwise, you might as well be playing Doom or Quake.
You said it .It is down to taste.So how did EA ruin UO by offering people 2 choices.If you wanted to pve in peace and mine in peace you could go to trammel.
If you wanted to pvp then stick to fellucia.
That was the idea.Fact was a majority of the community were sick to their stomachs of random pking and looting they went to trammel and left the old world.
If there were so many people in UO as I see spamming here intrested in pvp why did they not gather and stay in old world and enjoy themselves.
Fact is most of the pkers were all cookie cut chars who wore nothing of value on their chars and had no poor miner to gank.So there were no more victims .This people had no intrest in pvp at all they were only "i roxor u dud" guys.
They had no intrest in hardwork so made cookie cut chars and went around stealing and making trade chars and newbies miserable.
PvP can be fun.I personally like the way DAoC did it.
1)pvp only zones(frontiers).You go there and die you have zero reason to complain.There are many other areas to gain exp and loot.
2)no looting.
3)massive battles.While you could go around as a solo stealther you are better off fighting in a large group.
4)Reason apart from looting to pvp.Relics/keeps.
5)no messaging the enemy.So no tells like "noob,I ruxor u!"
I think DAoC brought pvp back to light for many showing it can be an adrenaline rush without the griefing.
I never played DaoC but from what i hear the principle of RvR sound very good. If you go into the PvP area then you must be prepared to defend yourself.
There is nothing worse than logging on for 30 mins and hearing that a ganker is hanging about so you darent leave your house then having to log off.
PvP needs to be a choice, there are so many people on this site alone who love PvP, and i myself enjoy it when i am actually prepared. i love pitched fights, guild v guild for castles or territories, or just for fun. What i dont like is sitting in a corner just chatting to a mate and not watching then getting shot in the back.
As always it is the minority who spoil the game, most of you on this site might PvP perfectly fairly, and roleplay your characters. but if a system is open for abuse then it will be abused, so there needs to be some kind of opt out for those who want it.
Be this a switch command or safe area or whatever, it needs to be there.
Muahahahahahahaha
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Gankers and griefers ruin PvP for everybody. That is the truth, like it or not.
More people would enjoy PvP if not for those kinds of people. I enjoy a good bit of PvP, but when I am just trying to do a bit of PvE and get jumped, it really erks me, and it does everyone else as well.
I do not mind PvP if there is some rhyme or reason. If there is a specific class that I know I should be fighting. But the not knowing who may jump you at any moment sucks.
I assume that was in regards to my post so I will respond to it... (I think it was anyway).
The reason I favoured killing other PVPers wasn't because I was anti, far from it. There are actually multiple reasons and while some will seem anti the core is pure PK/roleplay:
The way I saw it most of my "victims" really didn't want to fight me and I often ruined their night when I killed them. On the other hand here were other guys (other PKs) out actively doing the same thing I was... looking to fight another player. I knew fighting them I was going to fight an experienced player who would put up a challenging fight and who afterwards could not give me a line of garbage about how much of a "jerk" I was... afterall they were out doing the same thing. Killing them was more rewarding from this standpoint.
Not only that but it gave me bragging rights. What is the more difficult to kill? A guy out hunting mobs and half dead or the guys out pk'ing like myself? I killed the other PKs first because it made me top dog in that zone and gave my character a feared reputation. I refused to join the top PK guilds since none of them roleplayed and I hated their attitude. If you lose don't be a sore loser and if you win don't rub it in people's faces. Yet these guys loved nothing better than to taunt the rest of the server both in-game and on the message boards. Hunting them down and killing them gave me the satisfaction of knowing I just knocked them down a peg. Since they almost as a rule fought naked (or with minimal armor) my fully armored character could kill them repeatedly. I hung that over their head too.... Afterall, if they were so "good" at pvp they wouldn't really be "risking" their armor if they wore it would they? Hmm who is probably the better pvper: the guy in full armor who isn't afraid to risk it all because he knows he never loses or the naked caster who is afraid he will be looted if he dies?
Of course in my day I slowly met other PKs with my mentality and would fight alongside them from time to time (as a requirement they had to roleplay and wear armor). We would spend whole nights just running around looking for people to kill and would actively engage them. Roleplaying an "evil" character and with 95% of the server non-roleplay this pretty much meant I was enemies with any and everyone I ran across. We did not run around looking to kill PKs all night but we certainly didn't let them live if we met them. Afterall these guys often tried to kill us because in our armor we would make great lootable victims so better to get them first. Not only that but if we let them PK in our zones that meant fewer victims for us.
I suppose the key there is that I roleplayed an evil character which may not have been clear. I ran around as a crazed ogre who worshipped the god of war spreading his sermon one bloody axe stroke at a time. When I came in a zone the shouts of "PK" would instantly fill the chat but the difference between me and most (among other things) is that if another PK was there they knew they were #1 on my list if I could find them.
for me, I love PvP. For the past 2 decades, i've spent my gaming time against pre-written computer scripts. Every game gets boring because in time, you learn exactley how the program is going to act and react to whats going on in the game. Playing against other human minds brings a whole nother level to my game.
Do I like playing juvenile gankers? No way. I like playing against reasonable people, who both win and lose well. I don't RPK, PK noobs, or grief people. Not to say that if I catch an enemy in an underhanded situation, I wouldn't take advantage. But I don't go out of my way to find that either. I PvP when there is good PvP to be had. Thats not all I live for. In fact, it makes up less that hal;f my gaming experience.
I think Lineage 2 is coming out with a great system to keep PvP the way it should be, you should look into that. A good non-pvp game coming out is CoH. So basically, these days, there is something for everyone.
I see doing away with PvP as a good way to combine platform games and chatrooms. Neither of which I would pay a monthly fee for.
You can argue til you're blue in the face about it. Bottom line, PvP is one of the things that makes online games "the next generation." Without it, its just AIM with a pretty screen. Bottom line, there is a market for non-pvp online games, which they've begun to target.
Not every game is everything you want to it be. The key is finding 2 or 3 that cover all your gaming needs.
Nolf - Master Asshat
Someone's gotta do it!
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Well considering the world of LoTR was a very unbridled wilderness with next to no towns to stop in to get supplies, that and the fact they were afraid of people ganking them *cough ringwraith's* *cough* it wasnt a very good example.
"
I never played DaoC but from what i hear the principle of RvR sound very good. If you go into the PvP area then you must be prepared to defend yourself.
There is nothing worse than logging on for 30 mins and hearing that a ganker is hanging about so you darent leave your house then having to log off.
PvP needs to be a choice, there are so many people on this site alone who love PvP, and i myself enjoy it when i am actually prepared. i love pitched fights, guild v guild for castles or territories, or just for fun. What i dont like is sitting in a corner just chatting to a mate and not watching then getting shot in the back.
As always it is the minority who spoil the game, most of you on this site might PvP perfectly fairly, and roleplay your characters. but if a system is open for abuse then it will be abused, so there needs to be some kind of opt out for those who want it.
Be this a switch command or safe area or whatever, it needs to be there.
Muahahahahahahaha"
There is a choice for people to PvP or not, buy the game, or dont, pretty simple.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Wow, someone I actually agree with about this subject. That doesn't happen very often.
So, just know Finwe, you have the same opinion as a poopy-head!