I believe it was translations fault. I mean for one, heaven in the bible can have many different meanings, the sky, or literally the spiritual place, etc.
I know this may sound odd, but I believe both Elijah and Enoch never even saw heaven, but were rather sent forward in time. I dont think they literally meant heaven when stating they went up into heaven, but rather the sky. There is a couple very mis translated verses in the king james bible, either that or they didnt have the words to describe it. Such as God, and Lord, were not really what the hebrew's called Father God, or Jesus. God had many different names, but I believe the true name of God was Yaweh. And for Jesus Yashua.
As for killertwinkies post, I'll have to disagree with you on one part, Man dieing and going to heaven. I believe that none of us will ever see heaven until the end of time when it descends upon the earth. And until then, we'll have to just keep with paradise, (that is if your good) which I wont particularly mind, lol.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Well, most Biblical scholars would say that Elijah was not taking into the Heaven of heavens as you suggest and believe too, but the whirlwind just took him up into the skies. So, I won't continue arguing that one.
I'll go with another contradiction:
1 John 4:12 - No man has seen God at any time... Exodus 33:11 - Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.
There's no misinterpretation of words like heaven in that case.
But to get back to UFO's and the Bible, some people love this Moses story: Exodus 19:18 - Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke, because the Lord had descended upon it in fire; the smoke went up like the smoke of a kiln, while the whole mountain shook violently.
Some people believe this to be an alien ship landing. If so, I'm glad technology has improved for them so that they won't be causing so much pollution each time they come to visit us. Doesn't seem like the current observations of UFO's produce that much pollution.
Ahh, now your acting trickingly. For if you read the rest of the chapter, you'll see he does not see his face.
Exodus 33:20, And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 33:21-22, And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Finwe Ahh, now your acting trickingly. For if you read the rest of the chapter, you'll see he does not see his face.
So he used to talk to him face-to-face and then he decided not too? See it's still confusing all in one chapter.
I'll get a little more tricky with you then. Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved." And let me add: Job 42:5 - I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
I know of other inconsistencies and could keep going on. One to look at is the two different creation versions both presented in Genesis.
The whole point is that if God wrote the Bible, he should of been the chief editor when it came down to the men that kept doing revisions of it so that you wouldn't have all these inconsistencies.
Your seeing this in the wrong context again. The bible is translated from Hebrew and there are double meanings for certain things. When someone talks about finally seeing something they refer to spiritual seeing. Its commonly taught for christians to see with their heart and not with their physical eyes.
just to add something to everyones recent posts. Most people in the world do not read aramaic or hebrew so we must read in our own languages which as some are saying that meaning is lost in translation. This is why it is difficult for many people to believe the Bible. There are two main reasons that I find this mistranslation another contradiction. (1) If God "wrote" the Bible then the Bible would be perfect. It would not be lost in translation because God would have made it so. How could God expect people to learn his teachings if something as simple as translation would create a loss of meaning? (2) I would like to point out Revelation 22:18-19 :
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes words away from this book, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Also as a response to whether you go to heaven when you die. The answer is no, you do not even go to a "paradise". According to Revelation when someone dies they are in a "slumber" until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus/Yeshua then they will be risen from the dead and judged "according to their works".
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Originally posted by ChronicRick Your seeing this in the wrong context again.
In the case of Jacob, Peniel means the Face of God. And as we were told with the story of Moses that if you see God's Face, you will die. I think this is what astonishes Jacob because he said his life was still preserved. I'm not sure of any other context to read that into.
Also Paul said nothing about seeing God's face, just that no one has seen God. And you all agree that Moses saw God's back side.
And if it is because of language: Genesis 11:7 - Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another's speech. but 1 Corinthians 14:33 - for God is a God not of disorder but of peace.
Seems like he caused a lot of disorder with the people at Babel. And now you are confusing me with the same problem.
So let me go with another example that should have nothing to do with misinterpretation (or so I hope): Genesis 6:4 - The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown. Genesis 7:21 - And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings. Numbers 13:33 - There we saw the Nephilim; and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.
So who were these Nephilim and how do they exist before and after the flood if all flesh that moved on the earth died during the flood? Were they not moving on the earth or somewhere else off of earth? Who were the sons of God that bore children with human women? Doesn't sound like they were human themselves. If they were, there couldn't be a distinction that their children were heroes compared to other children by other men. Can you explain this one better than saying that I'm seeing this in the wrong context?
Originally posted by zentusken I don't think that anyone with out a degree and years in a field can say its moronic with making themselves appear foollish.
Doesnt take a genius to tell that the majority of scientist's are morons makeing theories and trying to fool the general public in actually thinking that they know what they're even speaking about.
It only takes common sense.
Wow, so ever scientist on the planet is part of this huge conspiracy to fool the public?!?!? I can tell you i will be a lot more watchful of those darned science teachers from now on!
"Also as a response to whether you go to heaven when you die. The answer is no, you do not even go to a 'paradise'. According to Revelation when someone dies they are in a 'slumber' until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus/Yeshua..."
I largely agree with this, except I'm still not sure if that's strictly so. Look at Luke 23:43 - "And Jesus replied, 'I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.'" He spoke this to one of the criminals who was crucified with him on a cross.
"...then they will be risen from the dead and judged 'according to their works'."
I agree with this, but I'm wondering if you believe that someone still has to do good deeds in order to reach heaven... Check out Revelation 20:15 - "And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." I haven't been following the whole discussion, so I'm not sure if the direction you were going was the whole "good deeds = eternal life". I still believe that Christ had died on the cross and rose from the dead to save us. This is just my opinion, but no one part of Christ's life could have been adequate. He had to die as a sacrifice to make us pure and then rise again from the dead to have victory over sin and death. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
"So who were these Nephilim and how do they exist before and after the flood if all flesh that moved on the earth died during the flood?"
I'm not completely sure (my grandfather has done research on the subject), but I believe the Nephilim were the offspring of demons mating with humans. I hear they were supposedly extremely strong (might have been where the legend of Hercules came from). I don't know if Nephilim takes into account angels mating with humans because it seems like that happened too, but again-not sure. Samson was extremely strong and he was born without human sexual intercourse I believe.
"Genesis 11:7 - Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another's speech. but 1 Corinthians 14:33 - for God is a God not of disorder but of peace."
You still have to understand that in the disorder he caused among the people there were most likely language structures even though they couldn't understand what anyone else was saying. But-I'm only speculating so don't take my word on it of course. In my opinion of this verse, I believe God is an orderly God and has a plan for everything; even in what is disorder at the moment, he still has a plan through it all.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved.'"
I don't believe everything that everyone says in the Bible is truth. Look at some of the truly wicked characters. Would you take everything they said for the truth? Now, I'm not saying Jacob is desperately wicked (heh), but take a closer look at Genesis 32:30 and keep in mind that he is a man and is imperfect. It is only what he says. And who was the mysterious man in this chapter? I'm not completely sure. Maybe it was an angel, maybe it was God, or maybe it was just a man? However, in Genesis 32:28 it says, "'Your name will no longer be Jacob,' the man told him. 'It is now Israel, because you have struggled with both God and men and have won.'" Right off, it seems like the man is implying that the struggle is a physical one since they "wrestled...until dawn". Perhaps the whole struggle was acted out by an angel of God or maybe a man in that region led by God in order to symbolize God's decision on how to deal with the spiritual struggle within Jacob and his prayer he had made asking God for help (just my thoughts, speak freely).
p.s. good debate though. You raise some great questions.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by Adreal ""...then they will be risen from the dead and judged 'according to their works'." I agree with this, but I'm wondering if you believe that someone still has to do good deeds in order to reach heaven... Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
no it goes further in detail. The judging of good works decides upon the crowns you will be presented with. I take it as like a rank or something of the sort.
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Originally posted by Adreal I don't believe everything that everyone says in the Bible is truth.
You don't and there's a lot that don't. I was just arguing this point to the people that believe the Bible was written by God and not men.
Another point are the people that God called righteous: Noah in Genesis 7:1, Job in Job 1:1, Zechariah and Elizabeth in Luke 1:6. But in Romans 3:10 it says there is no one who is righteous.
Let's get back to the Tower of Babel. In Genesis 11:1 it says the whole earth had one language, but earlier in Genesis 10:5,20,31 it talks about descendants of Noah that spread out and had their own language.
In Judges 1:19, God along with Judah couldn't kick out the inhabitants of a plain because the plains people had iron chariots. Isn't nothing impossible for God as stated in Luke 1:37?
Abraham married his half-sister Sarah and God blessed them as seen in Genesis 17:15, but in Leviticus 20:17, it surely shows that it is wrong to marry your sister (even half-sister) and that it's a punishable crime.
During the 5th plague on the Egyptians described in Exodus 9:3-6 all Egyptian's livestock, including horses, were killed. Yet, when the Israelites were crossing the Red Sea, they were followed by the Pharoah's horses and chariots as seen in Exodus 14:9.
Once again, if God wrote this Bible, how can there be any of these inconsitencies? If you claim it has been lost in translations down through the ages, then you have to admit the Bible we have now is written by men. There's no way around it except to say God is falliable or he didn't write the Bible. Take your pick.
Genesis 10:5 "Their descendants became the seafaring peoples in various lands, each tribe with its own language."
You often have to read carefully to see hidden points in the Bible or not to take it the wrong way. It doesn't say they spoke different languages before the tower of Babel, but that their descendants did.
"I don't believe everything that everyone says in the Bible is truth."
When I said that, I meant that the authors who wrote the books were directed by God in some way but the characters who speak in the books aren't always the ones that are speaking the truth. They may say that God is a liar or some such thing and the author is simply recording their words in the book/books he writes. It doesn't mean each character's words are true, but I believe (without review) that all of Christ's words are spoken in truth.
Judges 1:19 "The Lord was with the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they failed to drive out the people living in the plains because the people there had iron chariots."
God was with the tribe of Judah and gave them victory over the land (assuming the Canaanites' land in verses 1-2), but I don't know if the "people living in the plains" were Canaanites. Did Canaanites have iron chariots? I don't know. If you find out they did then let me know and I'll have to do some more looking into it. The Israelites were fighitng more than Canaanites I believe (unless the Jebusites are considered Canaanites). Look at verse 21. Also, in Judges 1:29 it looks like a contradiction, but it says the "tribe of Ephraim" failed to drive out the Canaanites-not the tribe of Judah.
"Abraham married his half-sister Sarah and God blessed them as seen in Genesis 17:15, but in Leviticus 20:17, it surely shows that it is wrong to marry your sister (even half-sister) and that it's a punishable crime."
In Leviticus 20:17 my Bible reads - "If a man has sexual intercourse with his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, it is a terrible disgrace. Both of them must be publicly cut off from the community. Since the man has had intercourse with his sister, he will suffer the consequences of his guilt." It says that having sexual intercourse is wrong... I don't see that it says that marriage with your sister/half-sister is wrong even though it seems wierd. In Genesis 17:15-16 it says - "Then God added, 'Regarding Sarai, your wife-her name will no longer be Sarai; from now on you will call her Sarah. And I will bless her and give you a son from her! Yes, I will bless her richly, and she will become the mother of many nations. Kings will be among her descedants!'" God's blessing is partly giving Sarah (a barren woman I believe) a baby. It doesn't say that Abraham had sexual intercourse with his 90-year old wife to get a baby.
"During the 5th plague on the Egyptians described in Exodus 9:3-6 all Egyptian's livestock, including horses, were killed. Yet, when the Israelites were crossing the Red Sea, they were followed by the Pharoah's horses and chariots as seen in Exodus 14:9."
According to my Bible Exodus 9:3-6 reads, "the Lord will send a deadly plague to destroy your horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, and sheep. But the Lord will again make a distinction between the property of the Israelites and that of the Egyptians. Not a single one of the Israel's livestock will die!' The Lord announced that he would send the plague the very next day, and he did it, just as he had said. The next morning all the livestock of the Egyptians began to die, but the Israelites didn't lose a single animal from their flocks and herds." It says the Egyptian's livestock began to die. It doesn't say all of the Egyptian livestock died. Infact, in verses 20-21 it states that Pharaoh's officials had livestock left.
p.s. I'd like to stick to the topic or just no post at all, but when someone raises questions about my beliefs I'd like the chance to defend them.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by Adreal The next morning all the livestock of the Egyptians began to die, but the Israelites didn't lose a single animal from their flocks and herds." It says the Egyptian's livestock began to die. It doesn't say all of the Egyptian livestock died. Infact, in verses 20-21 it states that Pharaoh's officials had livestock left.
Well, I have a NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) and it does not say "began to die." It does say that "all of the livestock of the Egyptians died."
So this means that certain men revised my Bible one way and some men revised your Bible another way. This just reinforces my statement.
Also, I went in a little further and Sarah doesn't seem to be Abraham's half-sister. Someone else could either verify or un-verify this either way. I myself can care less about fairy tales right now, so I'll stop posting scriptures and let people figure out things for themselves. That will go for extraterrestrial life as well as the Bible.
My science teacher refered to Earth as a "goldilocks planet"We are in the perfect spot in the galaxy.Not too young,not too old.We're also in the pefect spot of the solar system,not too hot,not too cold.Now what are the chances of another planet in the exact same situation as us?Pretty high.Now,add water,a good atmosphere,and a few other good living needs.(Animals of some type and such.)Thats basicly all that is needed.Now,you need some type of organism.Then comes in religion.How was man created?Maybe there are other gods that will create life.We will problabley never know.In a few million years though we will be too far away from any galaxies to tell.They have found that our universe is open.We aren't going to stop,we will just keep going further and further away from everything.Well,just what I think.P.s Everything I learned is Science-7
Yesterday was happiness,Today is Mayhem.Yesterday was Bliss,Today is Chaos. Today we shall fight.Tomorrow we shall live. (PS Email me I do Idea writing for everything)
Yesterday was happiness,Today is Mayhem.Yesterday was Bliss,Today is Chaos. Today we shall fight.Tomorrow we shall live. (PS Email me I do Idea writing for everything)
1: If I were an intelligent being and had the ability, I would totally conceal my existence from the masses of humanity. Guess why? : )
2:To an ET we are the lifeforms far away!
3: Why limit the search for life to this universe? Many of the distance points of light seen from Hubble are actually clusters of....universes...oh my.
Many intelligent thinkers have described several possibilities of there being several dimensions, some of which may be alternate universes. When I consider the Human condition, I hope there are others out "there" because to think that we are the summit of bi-pedal inteligence...is somehow sickening.
There is evidence that other (intelligent) life forms exist, that information is just too sensitive for the general public or too controversial. Seperating a Human from his precious delusions of being the only relevant life form is risky... or so an informed source assures me! ^__^
"Well, I have a NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) and it does not say 'began to die.' It does say that 'all of the livestock of the Egyptians died.'"
Yeah, like I said...the different translations really do make a difference. heh. My Bible's from the 700 club but I don't know if that holds any more weight. I'd like to get my hands on a King James version of the Bible but I've only got a KJv New Testament.
"So this means that certain men revised my Bible one way and some men revised your Bible another way. This just reinforces my statement."
I believe the original texts held truth within them. Not to repeat myself, but translations coupled with mass production makes not only for misunderstandings but for typos, etc. In the ancient days everything was pretty much hand recorded, I think, and those recording it most possibly could have understood it a lot better than we can thousands of years later.
"I myself can care less about fairy tales right now, so I'll stop posting scriptures and let people figure out things for themselves. That will go for extraterrestrial life as well as the Bible."
I agree with that last part. Everyone should seek the truth and have a well-rounded knowledge of both religious (not just Christian) views as well as secular views. If you do have any more questions, my email's not hidden from you or anyone else. It was a good debate and I'm willing to keep it going by trying to answer any questions someone might have (just not in this discussion). Basically, I believe the Bible (the original books) had no inconsistencies, but only misunderstandings. If I can't answer a question it's likely that someone else can. Anyway-I find it kind of ironic that this discussion went from the stars to iron chariots, but hey it's life.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
I would just like to say one last thing. I want to thank everyone for their input. This has been a most interesting discussion and I think one of the first topics that I have seen discussing religion that hasn't been deleted by admin because of stupid and degrading comments made by immature people. Thanks everyone and hope to do one again (not necessarily on religion!)
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I would also like to express thanx to the contributors of this thread for their mature approach to the topic and keeping within the guidlines of our CoC. Thanx all
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
Originally posted by dekron I would just like to say one last thing. I want to thank everyone for their input. This has been a most interesting discussion and I think one of the first topics that I have seen discussing religion that hasn't been deleted by admin because of stupid and degrading comments made by immature people. Thanks everyone and hope to do one again (not necessarily on religion!)
-------------------------------------------- 33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
yes it was directly at you j/k. Although some of your remarks I didn't agree with they weren't immature, just disagreeable. I'm talking about previously posted topics where they are just down in an instant. Although I had a disagreement with what you said I have nothing against you personally ChronicRick. I don't hold grudges...well unless it has to do with my mother-in-law
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Comments
I believe it was translations fault. I mean for one, heaven in the bible can have many different meanings, the sky, or literally the spiritual place, etc.
I know this may sound odd, but I believe both Elijah and Enoch never even saw heaven, but were rather sent forward in time. I dont think they literally meant heaven when stating they went up into heaven, but rather the sky. There is a couple very mis translated verses in the king james bible, either that or they didnt have the words to describe it.
Such as God, and Lord, were not really what the hebrew's called Father God, or Jesus. God had many different names, but I believe the true name of God was Yaweh. And for Jesus Yashua.
As for killertwinkies post, I'll have to disagree with you on one part, Man dieing and going to heaven. I believe that none of us will ever see heaven until the end of time when it descends upon the earth. And until then, we'll have to just keep with paradise, (that is if your good) which I wont particularly mind, lol.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Well, most Biblical scholars would say that Elijah was not taking into the Heaven of heavens as you suggest and believe too, but the whirlwind just took him up into the skies. So, I won't continue arguing that one.
I'll go with another contradiction:
1 John 4:12 - No man has seen God at any time...
Exodus 33:11 - Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.
There's no misinterpretation of words like heaven in that case.
But to get back to UFO's and the Bible, some people love this Moses story:
Exodus 19:18 - Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke, because the Lord had descended upon it in fire; the smoke went up like the smoke of a kiln, while the whole mountain shook violently.
Some people believe this to be an alien ship landing. If so, I'm glad technology has improved for them so that they won't be causing so much pollution each time they come to visit us. Doesn't seem like the current observations of UFO's produce that much pollution.
Ahh, now your acting trickingly. For if you read the rest of the chapter, you'll see he does not see his face.
Exodus 33:20, And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 33:21-22, And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
I'll get a little more tricky with you then.
Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved."
And let me add:
Job 42:5 - I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;
I know of other inconsistencies and could keep going on. One to look at is the two different creation versions both presented in Genesis.
The whole point is that if God wrote the Bible, he should of been the chief editor when it came down to the men that kept doing revisions of it so that you wouldn't have all these inconsistencies.
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Does not play well with others.
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just to add something to everyones recent posts. Most people in the world do not read aramaic or hebrew so we must read in our own languages which as some are saying that meaning is lost in translation. This is why it is difficult for many people to believe the Bible. There are two main reasons that I find this mistranslation another contradiction. (1) If God "wrote" the Bible then the Bible would be perfect. It would not be lost in translation because God would have made it so. How could God expect people to learn his teachings if something as simple as translation would create a loss of meaning? (2) I would like to point out Revelation 22:18-19 :
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes words away from this book, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Also as a response to whether you go to heaven when you die. The answer is no, you do not even go to a "paradise". According to Revelation when someone dies they are in a "slumber" until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus/Yeshua then they will be risen from the dead and judged "according to their works".
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Also Paul said nothing about seeing God's face, just that no one has seen God. And you all agree that Moses saw God's back side.
And if it is because of language:
Genesis 11:7 - Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another's speech.
but
1 Corinthians 14:33 - for God is a God not of disorder but of peace.
Seems like he caused a lot of disorder with the people at Babel. And now you are confusing me with the same problem.
So let me go with another example that should have nothing to do with misinterpretation (or so I hope):
Genesis 6:4 - The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.
Genesis 7:21 - And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings.
Numbers 13:33 - There we saw the Nephilim; and to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.
So who were these Nephilim and how do they exist before and after the flood if all flesh that moved on the earth died during the flood? Were they not moving on the earth or somewhere else off of earth? Who were the sons of God that bore children with human women? Doesn't sound like they were human themselves. If they were, there couldn't be a distinction that their children were heroes compared to other children by other men. Can you explain this one better than saying that I'm seeing this in the wrong context?
It only takes common sense.
Wow, so ever scientist on the planet is part of this huge conspiracy to fool the public?!?!? I can tell you i will be a lot more watchful of those darned science teachers from now on!
"Also as a response to whether you go to heaven when you die. The answer is no, you do not even go to a 'paradise'. According to Revelation when someone dies they are in a 'slumber' until after the 1000 year reign of Jesus/Yeshua..."
I largely agree with this, except I'm still not sure if that's strictly so. Look at Luke 23:43 - "And Jesus replied, 'I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.'" He spoke this to one of the criminals who was crucified with him on a cross.
"...then they will be risen from the dead and judged 'according to their works'."
I agree with this, but I'm wondering if you believe that someone still has to do good deeds in order to reach heaven... Check out Revelation 20:15 - "And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire." I haven't been following the whole discussion, so I'm not sure if the direction you were going was the whole "good deeds = eternal life". I still believe that Christ had died on the cross and rose from the dead to save us. This is just my opinion, but no one part of Christ's life could have been adequate. He had to die as a sacrifice to make us pure and then rise again from the dead to have victory over sin and death. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
"So who were these Nephilim and how do they exist before and after the flood if all flesh that moved on the earth died during the flood?"
I'm not completely sure (my grandfather has done research on the subject), but I believe the Nephilim were the offspring of demons mating with humans. I hear they were supposedly extremely strong (might have been where the legend of Hercules came from). I don't know if Nephilim takes into account angels mating with humans because it seems like that happened too, but again-not sure. Samson was extremely strong and he was born without human sexual intercourse I believe.
"Genesis 11:7 - Come, let us go down, and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another's speech.
but
1 Corinthians 14:33 - for God is a God not of disorder but of peace."
You still have to understand that in the disorder he caused among the people there were most likely language structures even though they couldn't understand what anyone else was saying. But-I'm only speculating so don't take my word on it of course. In my opinion of this verse, I believe God is an orderly God and has a plan for everything; even in what is disorder at the moment, he still has a plan through it all.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Genesis 32:30 - So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face to face and yet my life is preserved.'"
I don't believe everything that everyone says in the Bible is truth. Look at some of the truly wicked characters. Would you take everything they said for the truth? Now, I'm not saying Jacob is desperately wicked (heh), but take a closer look at Genesis 32:30 and keep in mind that he is a man and is imperfect. It is only what he says. And who was the mysterious man in this chapter? I'm not completely sure. Maybe it was an angel, maybe it was God, or maybe it was just a man? However, in Genesis 32:28 it says, "'Your name will no longer be Jacob,' the man told him. 'It is now Israel, because you have struggled with both God and men and have won.'" Right off, it seems like the man is implying that the struggle is a physical one since they "wrestled...until dawn". Perhaps the whole struggle was acted out by an angel of God or maybe a man in that region led by God in order to symbolize God's decision on how to deal with the spiritual struggle within Jacob and his prayer he had made asking God for help (just my thoughts, speak freely).
p.s. good debate though. You raise some great questions.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
Another point are the people that God called righteous: Noah in Genesis 7:1, Job in Job 1:1, Zechariah and Elizabeth in Luke 1:6. But in Romans 3:10 it says there is no one who is righteous.
Let's get back to the Tower of Babel. In Genesis 11:1 it says the whole earth had one language, but earlier in Genesis 10:5,20,31 it talks about descendants of Noah that spread out and had their own language.
In Judges 1:19, God along with Judah couldn't kick out the inhabitants of a plain because the plains people had iron chariots. Isn't nothing impossible for God as stated in Luke 1:37?
Abraham married his half-sister Sarah and God blessed them as seen in Genesis 17:15, but in Leviticus 20:17, it surely shows that it is wrong to marry your sister (even half-sister) and that it's a punishable crime.
During the 5th plague on the Egyptians described in Exodus 9:3-6 all Egyptian's livestock, including horses, were killed. Yet, when the Israelites were crossing the Red Sea, they were followed by the Pharoah's horses and chariots as seen in Exodus 14:9.
Once again, if God wrote this Bible, how can there be any of these inconsitencies? If you claim it has been lost in translations down through the ages, then you have to admit the Bible we have now is written by men. There's no way around it except to say God is falliable or he didn't write the Bible. Take your pick.
Genesis 10:5 "Their descendants became the seafaring peoples in various lands, each tribe with its own language."
You often have to read carefully to see hidden points in the Bible or not to take it the wrong way. It doesn't say they spoke different languages before the tower of Babel, but that their descendants did.
"I don't believe everything that everyone says in the Bible is truth."
When I said that, I meant that the authors who wrote the books were directed by God in some way but the characters who speak in the books aren't always the ones that are speaking the truth. They may say that God is a liar or some such thing and the author is simply recording their words in the book/books he writes. It doesn't mean each character's words are true, but I believe (without review) that all of Christ's words are spoken in truth.
Judges 1:19 "The Lord was with the people of Judah, and they took possession of the hill country. But they failed to drive out the people living in the plains because the people there had iron chariots."
God was with the tribe of Judah and gave them victory over the land (assuming the Canaanites' land in verses 1-2), but I don't know if the "people living in the plains" were Canaanites. Did Canaanites have iron chariots? I don't know. If you find out they did then let me know and I'll have to do some more looking into it. The Israelites were fighitng more than Canaanites I believe (unless the Jebusites are considered Canaanites). Look at verse 21. Also, in Judges 1:29 it looks like a contradiction, but it says the "tribe of Ephraim" failed to drive out the Canaanites-not the tribe of Judah.
"Abraham married his half-sister Sarah and God blessed them as seen in Genesis 17:15, but in Leviticus 20:17, it surely shows that it is wrong to marry your sister (even half-sister) and that it's a punishable crime."
In Leviticus 20:17 my Bible reads - "If a man has sexual intercourse with his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, it is a terrible disgrace. Both of them must be publicly cut off from the community. Since the man has had intercourse with his sister, he will suffer the consequences of his guilt." It says that having sexual intercourse is wrong... I don't see that it says that marriage with your sister/half-sister is wrong even though it seems wierd. In Genesis 17:15-16 it says - "Then God added, 'Regarding Sarai, your wife-her name will no longer be Sarai; from now on you will call her Sarah. And I will bless her and give you a son from her! Yes, I will bless her richly, and she will become the mother of many nations. Kings will be among her descedants!'" God's blessing is partly giving Sarah (a barren woman I believe) a baby. It doesn't say that Abraham had sexual intercourse with his 90-year old wife to get a baby.
"During the 5th plague on the Egyptians described in Exodus 9:3-6 all Egyptian's livestock, including horses, were killed. Yet, when the Israelites were crossing the Red Sea, they were followed by the Pharoah's horses and chariots as seen in Exodus 14:9."
According to my Bible Exodus 9:3-6 reads, "the Lord will send a deadly plague to destroy your horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, and sheep. But the Lord will again make a distinction between the property of the Israelites and that of the Egyptians. Not a single one of the Israel's livestock will die!' The Lord announced that he would send the plague the very next day, and he did it, just as he had said. The next morning all the livestock of the Egyptians began to die, but the Israelites didn't lose a single animal from their flocks and herds." It says the Egyptian's livestock began to die. It doesn't say all of the Egyptian livestock died. Infact, in verses 20-21 it states that Pharaoh's officials had livestock left.
p.s. I'd like to stick to the topic or just no post at all, but when someone raises questions about my beliefs I'd like the chance to defend them.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
So this means that certain men revised my Bible one way and some men revised your Bible another way. This just reinforces my statement.
Also, I went in a little further and Sarah doesn't seem to be Abraham's half-sister. Someone else could either verify or un-verify this either way. I myself can care less about fairy tales right now, so I'll stop posting scriptures and let people figure out things for themselves. That will go for extraterrestrial life as well as the Bible.
Yesterday was happiness,Today is Mayhem.Yesterday was Bliss,Today is Chaos.
Today we shall fight.Tomorrow we shall live.
(PS Email me I do Idea writing for everything)
Yesterday was happiness,Today is Mayhem.Yesterday was Bliss,Today is Chaos.
Today we shall fight.Tomorrow we shall live.
(PS Email me I do Idea writing for everything)
Hi , I want to add some thoughts here on ET life.
1: If I were an intelligent being and had the ability, I would totally conceal my existence from the masses of humanity. Guess why? : )
2:To an ET we are the lifeforms far away!
3: Why limit the search for life to this universe? Many of the distance points of light seen from Hubble are actually clusters of....universes...oh my.
Many intelligent thinkers have described several possibilities of there being several dimensions, some of which may be alternate universes. When I consider the Human condition, I hope there are others out "there" because to think that we are the summit of bi-pedal inteligence...is somehow sickening.
There is evidence that other (intelligent) life forms exist, that information is just too sensitive for the general public or too controversial. Seperating a Human from his precious delusions of being the only relevant life form is risky... or so an informed source assures me! ^__^
Don't ya eat the yellow snow!
This is the last offtopic post here.
"Well, I have a NRSV (New Revised Standard Version) and it does not say 'began to die.' It does say that 'all of the livestock of the Egyptians died.'"
Yeah, like I said...the different translations really do make a difference. heh. My Bible's from the 700 club but I don't know if that holds any more weight. I'd like to get my hands on a King James version of the Bible but I've only got a KJv New Testament.
"So this means that certain men revised my Bible one way and some men revised your Bible another way. This just reinforces my statement."
I believe the original texts held truth within them. Not to repeat myself, but translations coupled with mass production makes not only for misunderstandings but for typos, etc. In the ancient days everything was pretty much hand recorded, I think, and those recording it most possibly could have understood it a lot better than we can thousands of years later.
"I myself can care less about fairy tales right now, so I'll stop posting scriptures and let people figure out things for themselves. That will go for extraterrestrial life as well as the Bible."
I agree with that last part. Everyone should seek the truth and have a well-rounded knowledge of both religious (not just Christian) views as well as secular views. If you do have any more questions, my email's not hidden from you or anyone else. It was a good debate and I'm willing to keep it going by trying to answer any questions someone might have (just not in this discussion). Basically, I believe the Bible (the original books) had no inconsistencies, but only misunderstandings. If I can't answer a question it's likely that someone else can. Anyway-I find it kind of ironic that this discussion went from the stars to iron chariots, but hey it's life.
Socializer 66% Never would've guessed...
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?
I would also like to express thanx to the contributors of this thread for their mature approach to the topic and keeping within the guidlines of our CoC. Thanx all
- Malkavian
"When you find yourself falling into madness... Dive." - Malkavian Proverb
- MMORPG.COM Staff -
"When you find yourself sinking into Madness, dive"
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33.333333333333336% of me is a huge nerd! How about you?