CapLast did you ever think that people may like a challenge when they play a game and not a easy ride to the top as other games? Oh here is another, some people like certain classes and play them in the online games they play. I usually play a bard as my main in my online games and other classes as my alts.
Your lack of knowledge of bards is obvious CapLast. But hey you only got to lvl 4 right on which account Lastera or CapRPG?
Originally posted by Lastera
If a class is too hard to play then it 's not fun. And I think it may not have to do with diffiiculty of playing a bard, but the fact that I think as groups progress, they grow smarter. And as they grow smarter, they realize can do better with classes that specialize in it. That's my take on it. I'm not saying a bard sucks. I played a Fighter up to level 4, but if I went to higher levels, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get many invites considering a Paladin can tank better at the front a lot better than I can.
I think if a person likes the game from the get go, it's gets better with time, not with each new area. That or it could denial...
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is.
level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho)
As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame..
And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is. level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho) As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame.. And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
Actually a paladin does tank better than a Fighter. They can get an AC of 34 (Fighter is 33), with just +5 tower shield, +5 Full plate and +2 from Aura of Good. Not even taking in the consideration enchantments. And then there is the high saves. The fighter is better than the paladin in tanking until level 4, which is when a paladin starts getting spells and higher saves.
However, a Fighter can DPS better than a Paladin, but it didn't change the boring gameplay for me. The only race that could make the Fighter into a paladin like class are the Dwarves if you build them right. Unless the Fighter has enchantments or item enchantments, he is a liability if he gets feared or worse. Finally, a paladin can heal himself without the help of potions. They excel in everything except DPS and AB. However, most people don't play them because of their limited feats. I, too, am one of those people. Except NWN, no other game makes use of the Paladin's offensive CHA abilities outsides of Smite Evil and Turn Undead.
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No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? If they were people who were uber like that they would be soloing. I was hinting that the reason not many people choose bards or group with bards is because of their AC & HP liability and lack of specialization. A bard can't spot, search or disable traps, which begs the quest how they are like Rogues? Bard can sneak, but so can a Ranger. What good is sneaking when you're character spends a lot of time in the back of the group anyway?
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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The open lands I know of early in the is the Kobold Isle and the other is Ireslot (I hope I spelled it right), but both of those are quest. For the Kobold Isle there is no exploration because there is nothing to find, you just kill things.
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is. level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho) As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame.. And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
Actually a paladin does tank better than a Fighter. They can get an AC of 34 (Fighter is 33), with just +5 tower shield, +5 Full plate and +2 from Aura of Good. Not even taking in the consideration enchantments. And then there is the high saves. The fighter is better than the paladin in tanking until level 4, which is when a paladin starts getting spells and higher saves.
However, a Fighter can DPS better than a Paladin, but it didn't change the boring gameplay for me. The only race that could make the Fighter into a paladin like class are the Dwarves if you build them right. Unless the Fighter has enchantments or item enchantments, he is a liability if he gets feared or worse. Finally, a paladin can heal himself without the help of potions. They excel in everything except DPS and AB. However, most people don't play them because of their limited feats. I, too, am one of those people. Except NWN, no other game makes use of the Paladin's offensive CHA abilities outsides of Smite Evil and Turn Undead.
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No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? If they were people who were uber like that they would be soloing. I was hinting that the reason not many people choose bards or group with bards is because of their AC & HP liability and lack of specialization. A bard can't spot, search or disable traps, which begs the quest how they are like Rogues? Bard can sneak, but so can a Ranger. What good is sneaking when you're character spends a lot of time in the back of the group anyway?
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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The open lands I know of early in the is the Kobold Isle and the other is Ireslot (I hope I spelled it right), but both of those are quest. For the Kobold Isle there is no exploration because there is nothing to find, you just kill things.
Anyway................DDO is doing really well at the moment!
You must not leave until you free Arlos and have gathered your party safely in this hallway.
Sorry to break this to you, but Fighter do a better job tanking in groups. i have a level 9 paladin and a level 10 fighter and my fighter do tank better. Fighters get 6 more feats to choose from level 1-10. feats used for either get more AC, Hit points, Better combat moves like trip, more Dps (which is a great help in tanking. faster they die, less strikes against you). The paladin only get 3 feats from level 1-10 (apart from his class feats) fighters get 9.
Fighters have enhantments like fighters dodge, towershield mastery, Improved combat expertise, Armour agility, fighters armour mastery, fighter mobility, fighter strength. Paladins get raise their aura to +5 AC i believe and better saves (everyone i the group get this, even fighters), more smith evil by enchantments that helps tanking.
Another thing is paladins have to use many points in Wis/Charisma, while the fighter can use those points in Con/dex.
And honestly , all you do is basing you statements on assumptions... You think paladins tank better then fighters in groups, because you have never tried. Im not saying you have to play both to high level to have an opinion, but you are telling me, im wrong, and which one is better based on playing a fighter to level 4. Dont you find that alittle odd?
No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them?
This is NOT what i said. I have never said they were the best healers, i said best buffers. I will repeat myself.... By your logic bards dont get groups because of their lack of having a field of expertise. I said: This could be true, but its not. Ingame Bards get groups easy, maybe because they are the best buffers ingame... hope i made myself clear.
Who ever claimed that a Paladin is a better tank than a fighter has never played with a fighter that knew what he was doing. The 6 person group I play with has 1 Rogue, 2 Fighters, 1 Paladin, 1 Cleric, and 1 Wizard. We are a decently balanced group, and at level 12 now, the Paladin is truly a support character.
The one place he does shine, are his saving throws, so if we go after beholders, he leads, but anything else that needs killing the two fighters pretty much do all the dirty work.
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is. level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho) As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame.. And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
Actually a paladin does tank better than a Fighter. .
OMG that is too funny. You really don't have a clue CapLas do you?
-------------------------------- Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile
Paladins are hybrid characters just like bards. They DON'T tank as well as fighters, and they don't heal nearly as well as clerics.
I hate to break it to you, but if you're playing with bards that always die first-then you are playing with bards that don't know what the hell they are doing. That or the tanks in the party don't. If the bard is any good half of the enemies wont get a chance to attack, because soundburst is VERY effective. (excellent crowd control spell) Also, bards get better at higher levels. I'm not saying bard is the best class, thats a matter of opinion, but please don't try to make it out like they are useless. (again, I have no problems finding a group) I keep my party buffed and the enemies dazed. People like that.
Oh and the difference between a fighter and barbarian...If both are built right, barbarians are faster (moving and attacking based on higher dex and lighter armor). Fighters are better defenders (heavier armor). Barbarians get rage, which raise your strength, and lowers defense for a limited time. However, fighters get WAY more feats than any other class.
I guess it basically comes down to Attacker vs. Defender in my opinion.
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is. level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho) As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame.. And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? If they were people who were uber like that they would be soloing. I was hinting that the reason not many people choose bards or group with bards is because of their AC & HP liability and lack of specialization. A bard can't spot, search or disable traps, which begs the quest how they are like Rogues? Bard can sneak, but so can a Ranger. What good is sneaking when you're character spends a lot of time in the back of the group anyway?
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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You are the only making the idiotic statements as someone that hasn't played past level 4. (Are you sure it was level 4 or maybe just rank 4 because from your comments I sure don't know.)
Bards are the best buffers, and a well played bard can heal almost as good as an average Cleric. Bards are a hybrid class, they are a jack of all trades. So sure they do trade off some AC and HP and may not specialize quite as well as the class they are meant to be filling in for, but that said they sure aren't weak. As far as your comment about being in the back of a group, some people perfer to play that way. We all can't be on the front lines. Or maybe you think a Sorc or Wiz should be tanking?
In the past when you group with bards? You only hit level 4, so how can you speak about the majority of the game? And personally the only time I have selected a cleric over a bard was when I knew we either needed DV or TU. I rather have the buffs from the bard personally.
Honestly though, you just don't have a clue what classes are what in DDO. That's okay though CapLas, most people that only play until level 4 don't as well.
-------------------------------- Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile
How are Barbarians compared to fighters and paladins?
Merv was right on Deathstrike2. It really depends what role you want to be in. Do you want to be the Main Tank leading the way? If so Fighter might be best for you. I can pull some great DPS out using a two hander on my Warrior, almost as good as my Barb (except when raging). But the fighter gets a much higher AC and as Merv mentioned the most feats in the game. While most of the time I can go Two handed there are always times you will want to drop and do sword and board for the higher AC. It is these times when the Fighter excels.
Both are fun. Fighters are usually a bit more asked for in a group over Barbs if there isn't aanother fighter already in the group just because they are the best meat shield. That said Barbs with Uncanny Dodge can pull out some great AC. In my opinion WF are the best barbs due to not taking the constitution hit from raging.
Like every other class in DDO, they are both fun. Play both up to 4 or 5 to get a feel for which you like better. The play styles are similar but certainly not the same. Personally I prefer my Fighter a tad more just because of the extra feats.
-------------------------------- Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile
Sorry to break this to you, but Fighter do a better job tanking in groups. i have a level 9 paladin and a level 10 fighter and my fighter do tank better. Fighters get 6 more feats to choose from level 1-10. feats used for either get more AC, Hit points, Better combat moves like trip, more Dps (which is a great help in tanking. faster they die, less strikes against you). The paladin only get 3 feats from level 1-10 (apart from his class feats) fighters get 9. Fighters have enhantments like fighters dodge, towershield mastery, Improved combat expertise, Armour agility, fighters armour mastery, fighter mobility, fighter strength. Paladins get raise their aura to +5 AC i believe and better saves (everyone i the group get this, even fighters), more smith evil by enchantments that helps tanking. Another thing is paladins have to use many points in Wis/Charisma, while the fighter can use those points in Con/dex. And honestly , all you do is basing you statements on assumptions... You think paladins tank better then fighters in groups, because you have never tried. Im not saying you have to play both to high level to have an opinion, but you are telling me, im wrong, and which one is better based on playing a fighter to level 4. Dont you find that alittle odd? No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? This is NOT what i said. I have never said they were the best healers, i said best buffers. I will repeat myself.... By your logic bards dont get groups because of their lack of having a field of expertise. I said: This could be true, but its not. Ingame Bards get groups easy, maybe because they are the best buffers ingame... hope i made myself clear.
Paladin
HP: 10 to 12 per level
Base: 10
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Aura of Good: 2
Total AC: 34
Saves (Cha of 20 without enchatnments and Aura of Good)
Reflex: 3 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 9
Fort : 6 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 14
Will: 3 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 11
Fighter
HP: 10 to 12 per level (13 if you're a Dwarf)
Base: 11
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Total AC: 34
Saves
Reflex: 3 + 1 = 4
Fort : 6 + 2 = 8
Will: 3 + 0 = 3
Seeing as you're using your elitist attitude only shows you're running out of arguments. Tanking mean holding the frontlines and surviving. A fighter cannot survive magic attack without the aid of potions, clerics or other paladins. The DC of a spell is 10 + level of creature + Status Modifier. Even with resistance equipment you wouldn't be able save against high level Reflex or Will spells. One holding spell and five swing later, you're dead and fear prevents you from attacking. If you're Fighter of level 10, whom I assuming is human, can pass every save without a problem, then monsters are either gimped, there's a bug that's protect you or you using potions & clerics.
As for the rest of what you said, it was the same thing I said. I already said a fighter can do better DPS and get more feats, I admitted that earlier. However, improve trip isn't a tanking skill, it's a tactic feat. Fighters improve their AC through, Dodge and Fighter's enchantments, but you would have to get both enchantments (Fighter's Armor and Tower Shield Mastery.) that allow them to increase their AC with both the tower shield and full armor plate to do it. (It also gimps your tactics) There's fighter mobility, but this still doesn't help the fact that your saves suck.
A paladin gets Bulkwark of Good, which gives them +5 for an AC of 37 and save bonus from Cha +5, Resistance of Good +3 and Paladin's Grace +2 for total of 10 towards saves. To top it off, we can use healing spell and protection spells. The only race that comes close to making a Fighter into a paladin is the Dwarf who gets +6 to spell saves with enchantments +3 with saving boosting feats for total of +9.
I may have not played a paladin in this game or made it pass level 4 with my Fighter, but you're talking to fan of the DnD and Forgotten Realm series, hun. I've played a Paladin two times: in a campaign and Neverwinter Nights. Plus, the enchantments are explained on this page: http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=339&menus=e&do=enhancements&cmi==6&siid=18
So, yes Paladins do make better tanks at higher levels and maybe if you applied the same emphasis in your Paladin that you did with your Fighter, you would see this. Maybe if post the status and equipment of both your Fighter and Paladin, we have better idea of what you working with and maybe I can help fix your broken Paladin.
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I didn't see many bards when I got to the marketplace. By your logic, I've should have seen a high ratio of bards in groups in the marketplace. I saw more clerics than Bards and with enable chat on, I could hear the players asking for a Cleric rather than a bard. In otherwords, in 8 of the dungeon runs I did, shouldn't 6 to 7 of those run involve having a bard in the group? Since I didn't see any bard in the marketplace all that much, you're either lying about the amount of bards that being played or exaggarating how well liked the bards are.
I will say I did see a lot bards in the harbor area, hun.
Maybe you didn't see as many Bards lounging around in the MP because they were busy on quest.
As far as Paladins being the best tanks in the game, still disagree, first off this isn't the PnP game. There are a number of differences.
You continue to call those that disagree with you CapLas Elitist . For someone that talks about others having a complex, you sure do like to show yours.
-------------------------------- Currently Playing: Guild Wars 2 and Path of Exile
The current best builds for tanking in the game are the batman builds that take 2 lvls of rogue either 4 paly and 6 fighter or vice versa 2 rogue 2 fighter and 8 paly or alot of different combinations. Also some can take 3 rogue for uncanny dodge as well. When you mix it you can get your saves well into the 20's with buffs and AC over 50 with lay hands for great self heals and evasion. A fighter has alot of flexability to be a great tank with Tower Shields and feat and enhancement choices that can be just as effective as a paly. Thats kind of the beauty of such a refined system as D&D. You have alot of flexability to tailor any class or classes and really make some unique interesting characters instead of the cookie cutter models that most of the new games seem to be gravitating to.
Combat Expertise trades your AB for AC, which makes this feat the most useless tactic ever. You are reduce to what gamers called a Meat shield. A meat shield is your pet who only purpose is to serve to distract the eney and nothing more. If I can't hit my enemy, I can't keep aggro. Intimidate isn't a good skill because it takes a few seconds for it to work. (It should be instant an skill) And if the people behind are doing a lot more damage, intimidate is all to useless. All the other skills have no bearing on the builds dps or tactics. As for the saves, they aren't higher than a paladins. Lastly, anything that can hit over 37 AC can hit object at 50 AC.
A paladin will the enchantments I talked about gets...
Fort: 8 + 10 = 18
Reflex: 3 + 10 = 10
Will: 5 + 10 = 15
With enchanments +5 and Cha bonus +2 for +7, they get total of Fort +25, Reflex +17, Will +22. The Batman build has +19/+19/+13. (+21/+21/+15 now with the new level cap.)
The paladin's base AB with Weapon Focus and Str of 14 will be +15/+10/+5 while Batman with a Str of 16 and weapon focus will be the same. Apply the same enchantments Paladin gets +22/+17/+12 while the Batman builds get +1 towards AB more. (You'll take hard hit to AB when you turn on combat expertise) However, the Paladin still has Smite Evil.
A pure-class fighter Dwarf gets +9 (Dwarven spell Resistance, Luck of Heroes, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will) With resistance equipment gets +5 more for 14 to all saves. That's Fort of 23, Reflex of 18 and Will of 17. Not only that a you can start off with a Str of 16 and end with a strength 23 if put all 7 points into strength for +6 points towards AB, +2 from Weapon Focus and Great Weapon Focus and +12 for a total of 20 AB. With enchantments it's 25. The damage of a pure class dwarven fighter is Str bonus of 6 + Weapon Specialization and Greater Specialization for 6 for a total of 12 and +5 from enchantments for a total of 17.
Lastly, this was more or less argument about how the Fighter can tank better than a Paladin, not how a cross-class can do better in certain areas than a pure class. Cross-classing shows how flawed the mechanics are of any DnD based game is and how players are more focused on making uber class builds than exploring the full pontential of their own class.
First mistake is comparing PnP DnD classes with DDO classes.
Secondly.. look at the above posts. all agreeing fighters are better tanks then paladins, and this is from people playing the game. there is no way i can presuade you, by sharing what i have experienced by playing this game., because, you are so narrow minded i cant even comprehend whats going through your head when you post your vast knowledge on the subject of DDO. The only way you can be prusaded is by trying it yourself im afraid.
My fighter is a hafling and his saves are +17 Fortitude, +15 Reflex, +15 Will. there is alot of ways to raise your saves, dont you worry. Now you are thinking <but that aint possible> YES it is...Play and try. another thing fighters have, which paladins cant use, is combat expertise.. raises your AC with +5, or +10 with improved.....I typed more here but erased it...its on deaf ears anyway, so i wont bother.
My paladin is fine.. acutally i can dare to say 90% of all paladins created are fine, because you only get 3 feats to choose freely.. all other feats are class feats. hard to roll a broken paladin imo.
but here he is.. any suggestions for improvment are most welcome..
DROW 8th PALADIN with one FIGHTER level - Stats: STR: 22 DEX: 14 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHR: 22. Hit Points: 139 Spell Points: 188 AC: 39 Saves: FORT: +20 REFLEX: +17 WILL: +16. Feats: Weapon focus - slashing, Exotic weapon - Bastard Sword, improved critical - slashing, and toughness. Enchantments: Bulwark of good, paladins charisma, Drow spell resistance, extra lay on hands.
Paladins are hybrid characters just like bards. They DON'T tank as well as fighters, and they don't heal nearly as well as clerics.
I hate to break it to you, but if you're playing with bards that always die first-then you are playing with bards that don't know what the hell they are doing. That or the tanks in the party don't. If the bard is any good half of the enemies wont get a chance to attack, because soundburst is VERY effective. (excellent crowd control spell) Also, bards get better at higher levels. I'm not saying bard is the best class, thats a matter of opinion, but please don't try to make it out like they are useless. (again, I have no problems finding a group) I keep my party buffed and the enemies dazed. People like that.
Oh and the difference between a fighter and barbarian...If both are built right, barbarians are faster (moving and attacking based on higher dex and lighter armor). Fighters are better defenders (heavier armor). Barbarians get rage, which raise your strength, and lowers defense for a limited time. However, fighters get WAY more feats than any other class.
I guess it basically comes down to Attacker vs. Defender in my opinion.
Barbarian
AB: 12 Base + 3 Str bonus +1 Weapon Focus = 16 (+18 to +20 with rage and +22 if you put 3 point towards Str bonus for 19)
Fort: 8
Reflex: 4
Will: 3
AC: 18 or less.
Damage: 3 + 4 (Rage) for 7
Fighter
AB: 12 Base + 3 Str bonus + 2 Weapon Focus and Greater Focus = 17 (+20 if you put 7 point towards Str bonus for 23)
Fort: 8
Reflex: 4
Will: 3
AC: 20 to 33
Damage: 3 + 6 (Weapon Specialization) for 9
Barbarian are Constitution based characters in this game. The only thing Barbarian can do better than a Fighter is having more HP and running faster. Like the Paladin, they are gimped by the lack of feats and like a Fighter they have very poor saves except against fear and traps. The highest Dex your Barbarian can have as a base is 16 and they can only raise it to 19 to 21 depending on your race. If you use weapon fitness, you'll gimp your build if you rage. Well, what I'm trying to say is you're asking for a deathwish if you play a Barbarian pure class because they are gimp version of the Fighter. By the way, Uncanny Dodge is suppose to be a passive skill not an active skill.
Saves (Cha of 20 without enchatnments and Aura of Good)
Reflex: 3 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 9
Fort : 6 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 14
Will: 3 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 11
Fighter
HP: 10 to 12 per level (13 if you're a Dwarf)
Base: 11
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Total AC: 34
Saves
Reflex: 3 + 1 = 4
Fort : 6 + 2 = 8
Will: 3 + 0 = 3
Seeing as you're using your elitist attitude only shows you're running out of arguments. Tanking mean holding the frontlines and surviving. A fighter cannot survive magic attack without the aid of potions, clerics or other paladins. The DC of a spell is 10 + level of creature + Status Modifier. Even with resistance equipment you wouldn't be able save against high level Reflex or Will spells. One holding spell and five swing later, you're dead and fear prevents you from attacking. If you're Fighter of level 10, whom I assuming is human, can pass every save without a problem, then monsters are either gimped, there's a bug that's protect you or you using potions & clerics.
As for the rest of what you said, it was the same thing I said. I already said a fighter can do better DPS and get more feats, I admitted that earlier. However, improve trip isn't a tanking skill, it's a tactic feat. Fighters improve their AC through, Dodge and Fighter's enchantments, but you would have to get both enchantments (Fighter's Armor and Tower Shield Mastery.) that allow them to increase their AC with both the tower shield and full armor plate to do it. (It also gimps your tactics) There's fighter mobility, but this still doesn't help the fact that your saves suck.
A paladin gets Bulkwark of Good, which gives them +5 for an AC of 37 and save bonus from Cha +5, Resistance of Good +3 and Paladin's Grace +2 for total of 10 towards saves. To top it off, we can use healing spell and protection spells. The only race that comes close to making a Fighter into a paladin is the Dwarf who gets +6 to spell saves with enchantments +3 with saving boosting feats for total of +9.
I may have not played a paladin in this game or made it pass level 4 with my Fighter, but you're talking to fan of the DnD and Forgotten Realm series, hun. I've played a Paladin two times: in a campaign and Neverwinter Nights. Plus, the enchantments are explained on this page: http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=339&menus=e&do=enhancements&cmi==6&siid=18
So, yes Paladins do make better tanks at higher levels and maybe if you applied the same emphasis in your Paladin that you did with your Fighter, you would see this. Maybe if post the status and equipment of both your Fighter and Paladin, we have better idea of what you working with and maybe I can help fix your broken Paladin.
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I didn't see many bards when I got to the marketplace. By your logic, I've should have seen a high ratio of bards in groups in the marketplace. I saw more clerics than Bards and with enable chat on, I could hear the players asking for a Cleric rather than a bard. In otherwords, in 8 of the dungeon runs I did, shouldn't 6 to 7 of those run involve having a bard in the group? Since I didn't see any bard in the marketplace all that much, you're either lying about the amount of bards that being played or exaggarating how well liked the bards are.
I will say I did see a lot bards in the harbor area, hun. Sorry but the stats you posted don't really prove anything. As stat distribution, Feats, and enhancement choices can change these numbers dramatically.
Also, you throw out all these pally abilities without also considering all the feats that a fighter of such a high lvl would have. Fighters get feats at almost every level and you have to consider those as well.
You should also consider that not everything in the pnp rules plays out the same in DDO. However, I've played DDO (for months) and pnp (for years). I have played both classes in both. And never in any instance or any game was a pally a better all around tank than a fighter it just doesn't happen.
As for your comments about bards...I think my experience in playing a bard to lvl 10 (and getting groups easily) trumps your "research" looking for bards in the first 4 lvls of the game.
If you knew the pnp rules as well as you claim then you would know the value of a bard
First mistake is comparing PnP DnD classes with DDO classes. Secondly.. look at the above posts. all agreeing fighters are better tanks then paladins, and this is from people playing the game. there is no way i can presuade you, by sharing what i have experienced by playing this game., because, you are so narrow minded i cant even comprehend whats going through your head when you post your vast knowledge on the subject of DDO. The only way you can be prusaded is by trying it yourself im afraid. My fighter is a hafling and his saves are +17 Fortitude, +15 Reflex, +15 Will. there is alot of ways to raise your saves, dont you worry. Now you are thinking <but that aint possible> YES it is...Play and try. another thing fighters have, which paladins cant use, is combat expertise.. raises your AC with +5, or +10 with improved.....I typed more here but erased it...its on deaf ears anyway, so i wont bother. My paladin is fine.. acutally i can dare to say 90% of all paladins created are fine, because you only get 3 feats to choose freely.. all other feats are class feats. hard to roll a broken paladin imo. but here he is.. any suggestions for improvment are most welcome.. DROW 8th PALADIN with one FIGHTER level - Stats: STR: 22 DEX: 14 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHR: 22. Hit Points: 139 Spell Points: 188 AC: 39 Saves: FORT: +20 REFLEX: +17 WILL: +16. Feats: Weapon focus - slashing, Exotic weapon - Bastard Sword, improved critical - slashing, and toughness. Enchantments: Bulwark of good, paladins charisma, Drow spell resistance, extra lay on hands. go nuts...
The game was designed after PnP so don't insult my intelligence by trying to find the smallest things to throw out the argument. Both PnP and DDO use the save features and Rolls. Unless you find a mechanic in the saves and the AC that makes each extremely, then it doesn't take away from the argument. Unlike yourself and Mr. RPG, I don't back down from arguments I start nor do I like it when you evade arguments.
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Secondly, none of those people posted any fighter build that oppose argument I made. I at least back my statements with raw data on how I build my fighters. By the way, Halflings get +1 to all saves, Halfling luck III grants +3 for 4 for a total of 7 to Reflex and Will while Fort gets +10. Resistance items, Status boost items and feats can easily make up for the other. But your Halfling Fighter is no where near the saves of dwarves and you'll still not better tank than a paladin. What do you think the saves and AC of a Elf, Human and Warforge look like?
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If your paladin is fine why are you so afraid to post his status and equipment.
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Your drow a cross-class, I don't know why you posted that. Was there a meaning behind post that?
Sorry but the stats you posted don't really prove anything. As stat distribution, Feats, and enhancement choices can change these numbers dramatically.
Also, you throw out all these pally abilities without also considering all the feats that a fighter of such a high lvl would have. Fighters get feats at almost every level and you have to consider those as well.
You should also consider that not everything in the pnp rules plays out the same in DDO. However, I've played DDO (for months) and pnp (for years). I have played both classes in both. And never in any instance or any game was a pally a better all around tank than a fighter it just doesn't happen.
As for your comments about bards...I think my experience in playing a bard to lvl 10 (and getting groups easily) trumps your "research" looking for bards in the first 4 lvls of the game.
If you knew the pnp rules as well as you claim then you would know the value of a bard
I'm starting to hat the quote feature. I'll only use it when I have to. Your post no different from BesCirga and I response is still the same.
Well CapLast I can tell you I have been a subscriber to DDO for about a month and half now. I play a bard as my main and I'm lvl 8 now. I offer no proof so you can take it for all its worth to you.
Every night I log in my bard if I'm idle and not in a group checking auction house or seeing what is open I will get a tell asking to join a group for a run. This happens almost everynight. Sometimes I get to many tells and I have to turn some away. No I'm not the primary healer in the group cause their short a cleric.
And remember I play on the "empty" as you said with CapRPG Riedra server, go figure. Bards rock.
"Barbarians are constitution based characters....."
I just re-read your post and I don't know how I missed it. Suddenly I understand why we are arguing. This statement tells me one thing.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT CHARACTER BUILDS IN D&D.
That goes for DDO and pnp. Barbarians, are a dex based class...this gives them decent AC in spite of only being able to wear medium armors. Secondly is Str/Con.
Fighters, on the other hand, are constitution based characters. Str being second.
No wonder you feel so ill towards barbarians...if you try to build you barbarian to be a fighter guess what you will end up with.....(in your own words) "a gimped-out fighter" Fighters and barbarians are completely different and both beneficial when built right.
You've already stated that you won't back down from an argument that you started so you will just go on and on...but bottom line is. you're wrong.
D&D or DDO, I can't tell which logic your arguments are coming from since you are all arguing that they can't be compared.
Barbarian is Constitution based character because their rage last longer with every bonus point towards your Con Modifier. It say so in my 3.0 Player Edition Handbook. That and the Barbarian enchantments only allow you to permenantly raise your Con as oppose to your Str. (Str is raised temporarily through rage) You to be confused on what Status are important to a Barbarian. A barbarian needs Dex to raise their armor class in both PnP and DDO, but it's not vital towards their fighting abilities. (Unless you're trying to TWF) Barbarian rely on DR, Con and Str more so than Dex.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure you can provide a sample build of a barbarian that exceed a Fighter?
So the PnP DnD is the same as DDO ? What experience do you base that on? All im saying is; you cant take a class from DnD PnP and think it works exacly the same in DDO! because it dont.
You want to see my equipment to? sure why not.... (dont know what you mean by status tho)
+5 full plate, +5 towershield, +4 cold iron bastard sword of pure good (main weapon), +4 Str gloves, +4 Con belt, +4 wis necklace, +4 dex ring, +3 charisma/intimitate helm, +2 resistance cloak with lesser cold resist, +70 SP trinket, Chaosguard bracers (constant protection vs evil spell and +2 dodge bonus to ac), greater devotion 2 ring, +15% striding boots.
hope this makes you happy....
If you didnt find my race or class build interesting, then i apologies.. my bad <roll eyes>
Not one person in here has backed you up about the fighter Vs Paladin tank abilities.. isnt about time to admit you may not have a clue? and there might be a slightest chance your wrong in your Theory: My experience in PnP = like it is in DDO and to hell with current playing subscribers opinions.....im just asking...
Comments
CapLast did you ever think that people may like a challenge when they play a game and not a easy ride to the top as other games? Oh here is another, some people like certain classes and play them in the online games they play. I usually play a bard as my main in my online games and other classes as my alts.
Your lack of knowledge of bards is obvious CapLast. But hey you only got to lvl 4 right on which account Lastera or CapRPG?
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
As i said in my post. ...i have never been, or didnt know where kobold isle was. as i have never been there i cant say for certain, but the quest existing on that isle isnt given by any quest giver. its just a place for people to "grind" monsters, and if you kill one kobold you get a automatic quest update saying "if you kill 19 more you get 100 xp" or something like that. im i right? this is like every other open landscape is.
level on open landscapes.....Postern Gate Wilds - level 1-3, Three barrel Cove - level 3-6, Tangleroot Gorge - level 3-6, Threnal Ruins - level 6-10, sorrowdusk isle- level 4-10, Restless isle-level 9 -12, Desert- level 9-12... just about. As you see its not all high level areas, and at level 1-3 you can also explore water works and steam tunnels without having any quests. (not open landscape tho)
As for your thoughs on the bard..... It could be true, but it isnt. its not how it works ingame. maybe because bards might be the best buffers ingame..
And paladins do not tank better then fighters.. dunno where you got that idea from..... They do a better job soloing, but not as a tank in groups.
However, a Fighter can DPS better than a Paladin, but it didn't change the boring gameplay for me. The only race that could make the Fighter into a paladin like class are the Dwarves if you build them right. Unless the Fighter has enchantments or item enchantments, he is a liability if he gets feared or worse. Finally, a paladin can heal himself without the help of potions. They excel in everything except DPS and AB. However, most people don't play them because of their limited feats. I, too, am one of those people. Except NWN, no other game makes use of the Paladin's offensive CHA abilities outsides of Smite Evil and Turn Undead.
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No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? If they were people who were uber like that they would be soloing. I was hinting that the reason not many people choose bards or group with bards is because of their AC & HP liability and lack of specialization. A bard can't spot, search or disable traps, which begs the quest how they are like Rogues? Bard can sneak, but so can a Ranger. What good is sneaking when you're character spends a lot of time in the back of the group anyway?
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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The open lands I know of early in the is the Kobold Isle and the other is Ireslot (I hope I spelled it right), but both of those are quest. For the Kobold Isle there is no exploration because there is nothing to find, you just kill things.
However, a Fighter can DPS better than a Paladin, but it didn't change the boring gameplay for me. The only race that could make the Fighter into a paladin like class are the Dwarves if you build them right. Unless the Fighter has enchantments or item enchantments, he is a liability if he gets feared or worse. Finally, a paladin can heal himself without the help of potions. They excel in everything except DPS and AB. However, most people don't play them because of their limited feats. I, too, am one of those people. Except NWN, no other game makes use of the Paladin's offensive CHA abilities outsides of Smite Evil and Turn Undead.
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No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them? If they were people who were uber like that they would be soloing. I was hinting that the reason not many people choose bards or group with bards is because of their AC & HP liability and lack of specialization. A bard can't spot, search or disable traps, which begs the quest how they are like Rogues? Bard can sneak, but so can a Ranger. What good is sneaking when you're character spends a lot of time in the back of the group anyway?
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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The open lands I know of early in the is the Kobold Isle and the other is Ireslot (I hope I spelled it right), but both of those are quest. For the Kobold Isle there is no exploration because there is nothing to find, you just kill things.
Anyway................DDO is doing really well at the moment!
You must not leave until you free Arlos and have gathered your party safely in this hallway.
Sorry to break this to you, but Fighter do a better job tanking in groups. i have a level 9 paladin and a level 10 fighter and my fighter do tank better. Fighters get 6 more feats to choose from level 1-10. feats used for either get more AC, Hit points, Better combat moves like trip, more Dps (which is a great help in tanking. faster they die, less strikes against you). The paladin only get 3 feats from level 1-10 (apart from his class feats) fighters get 9.
Fighters have enhantments like fighters dodge, towershield mastery, Improved combat expertise, Armour agility, fighters armour mastery, fighter mobility, fighter strength. Paladins get raise their aura to +5 AC i believe and better saves (everyone i the group get this, even fighters), more smith evil by enchantments that helps tanking.
Another thing is paladins have to use many points in Wis/Charisma, while the fighter can use those points in Con/dex.
And honestly , all you do is basing you statements on assumptions... You think paladins tank better then fighters in groups, because you have never tried. Im not saying you have to play both to high level to have an opinion, but you are telling me, im wrong, and which one is better based on playing a fighter to level 4. Dont you find that alittle odd?
No, insult, but what you said about the bard is idiotic. You're saying because bards are the best buffers and healers in the game is the reason people don't group with them or don't play them?
This is NOT what i said. I have never said they were the best healers, i said best buffers. I will repeat myself.... By your logic bards dont get groups because of their lack of having a field of expertise. I said: This could be true, but its not. Ingame Bards get groups easy, maybe because they are the best buffers ingame... hope i made myself clear.
Who ever claimed that a Paladin is a better tank than a fighter has never played with a fighter that knew what he was doing. The 6 person group I play with has 1 Rogue, 2 Fighters, 1 Paladin, 1 Cleric, and 1 Wizard. We are a decently balanced group, and at level 12 now, the Paladin is truly a support character.
The one place he does shine, are his saving throws, so if we go after beholders, he leads, but anything else that needs killing the two fighters pretty much do all the dirty work.
PinTBC
OMG that is too funny. You really don't have a clue CapLas do you?
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I hate to break it to you, but if you're playing with bards that always die first-then you are playing with bards that don't know what the hell they are doing. That or the tanks in the party don't. If the bard is any good half of the enemies wont get a chance to attack, because soundburst is VERY effective. (excellent crowd control spell) Also, bards get better at higher levels. I'm not saying bard is the best class, thats a matter of opinion, but please don't try to make it out like they are useless. (again, I have no problems finding a group) I keep my party buffed and the enemies dazed. People like that.
Oh and the difference between a fighter and barbarian...If both are built right, barbarians are faster (moving and attacking based on higher dex and lighter armor). Fighters are better defenders (heavier armor). Barbarians get rage, which raise your strength, and lowers defense for a limited time. However, fighters get WAY more feats than any other class.
I guess it basically comes down to Attacker vs. Defender in my opinion.
In the past, when I group with bards, they were the first to be attacked and sometimes died. If I were to pick a healer and buffer for my group, I would choose a cleric because a cleric has heavy armor and a shield to protect himself. That and they higher healing. If I wanted someone to sneak around and disable traps, I would pick a rogue. The only position, I can see a bard filling is range attack.
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You are the only making the idiotic statements as someone that hasn't played past level 4. (Are you sure it was level 4 or maybe just rank 4 because from your comments I sure don't know.)
Bards are the best buffers, and a well played bard can heal almost as good as an average Cleric. Bards are a hybrid class, they are a jack of all trades. So sure they do trade off some AC and HP and may not specialize quite as well as the class they are meant to be filling in for, but that said they sure aren't weak. As far as your comment about being in the back of a group, some people perfer to play that way. We all can't be on the front lines. Or maybe you think a Sorc or Wiz should be tanking?
In the past when you group with bards? You only hit level 4, so how can you speak about the majority of the game? And personally the only time I have selected a cleric over a bard was when I knew we either needed DV or TU. I rather have the buffs from the bard personally.
Honestly though, you just don't have a clue what classes are what in DDO. That's okay though CapLas, most people that only play until level 4 don't as well.
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Both are fun. Fighters are usually a bit more asked for in a group over Barbs if there isn't aanother fighter already in the group just because they are the best meat shield. That said Barbs with Uncanny Dodge can pull out some great AC. In my opinion WF are the best barbs due to not taking the constitution hit from raging.
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HP: 10 to 12 per level
Base: 10
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Aura of Good: 2
Total AC: 34
Saves (Cha of 20 without enchatnments and Aura of Good)
Reflex: 3 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 9
Fort : 6 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 14
Will: 3 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 11
Fighter
HP: 10 to 12 per level (13 if you're a Dwarf)
Base: 11
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Total AC: 34
Saves
Reflex: 3 + 1 = 4
Fort : 6 + 2 = 8
Will: 3 + 0 = 3
Seeing as you're using your elitist attitude only shows you're running out of arguments. Tanking mean holding the frontlines and surviving. A fighter cannot survive magic attack without the aid of potions, clerics or other paladins. The DC of a spell is 10 + level of creature + Status Modifier. Even with resistance equipment you wouldn't be able save against high level Reflex or Will spells. One holding spell and five swing later, you're dead and fear prevents you from attacking. If you're Fighter of level 10, whom I assuming is human, can pass every save without a problem, then monsters are either gimped, there's a bug that's protect you or you using potions & clerics.
As for the rest of what you said, it was the same thing I said. I already said a fighter can do better DPS and get more feats, I admitted that earlier. However, improve trip isn't a tanking skill, it's a tactic feat. Fighters improve their AC through, Dodge and Fighter's enchantments, but you would have to get both enchantments (Fighter's Armor and Tower Shield Mastery.) that allow them to increase their AC with both the tower shield and full armor plate to do it. (It also gimps your tactics) There's fighter mobility, but this still doesn't help the fact that your saves suck.
A paladin gets Bulkwark of Good, which gives them +5 for an AC of 37 and save bonus from Cha +5, Resistance of Good +3 and Paladin's Grace +2 for total of 10 towards saves. To top it off, we can use healing spell and protection spells. The only race that comes close to making a Fighter into a paladin is the Dwarf who gets +6 to spell saves with enchantments +3 with saving boosting feats for total of +9.
I may have not played a paladin in this game or made it pass level 4 with my Fighter, but you're talking to fan of the DnD and Forgotten Realm series, hun. I've played a Paladin two times: in a campaign and Neverwinter Nights. Plus, the enchantments are explained on this page: http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=339&menus=e&do=enhancements&cmi==6&siid=18
So, yes Paladins do make better tanks at higher levels and maybe if you applied the same emphasis in your Paladin that you did with your Fighter, you would see this. Maybe if post the status and equipment of both your Fighter and Paladin, we have better idea of what you working with and maybe I can help fix your broken Paladin.
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I didn't see many bards when I got to the marketplace. By your logic, I've should have seen a high ratio of bards in groups in the marketplace. I saw more clerics than Bards and with enable chat on, I could hear the players asking for a Cleric rather than a bard. In otherwords, in 8 of the dungeon runs I did, shouldn't 6 to 7 of those run involve having a bard in the group? Since I didn't see any bard in the marketplace all that much, you're either lying about the amount of bards that being played or exaggarating how well liked the bards are.
I will say I did see a lot bards in the harbor area, hun.
As far as Paladins being the best tanks in the game, still disagree, first off this isn't the PnP game. There are a number of differences.
You continue to call those that disagree with you CapLas Elitist . For someone that talks about others having a complex, you sure do like to show yours.
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His alignment is Chaotic Good
Combat Expertise trades your AB for AC, which makes this feat the most useless tactic ever. You are reduce to what gamers called a Meat shield. A meat shield is your pet who only purpose is to serve to distract the eney and nothing more. If I can't hit my enemy, I can't keep aggro. Intimidate isn't a good skill because it takes a few seconds for it to work. (It should be instant an skill) And if the people behind are doing a lot more damage, intimidate is all to useless. All the other skills have no bearing on the builds dps or tactics. As for the saves, they aren't higher than a paladins. Lastly, anything that can hit over 37 AC can hit object at 50 AC.
A paladin will the enchantments I talked about gets...
Fort: 8 + 10 = 18
Reflex: 3 + 10 = 10
Will: 5 + 10 = 15
With enchanments +5 and Cha bonus +2 for +7, they get total of Fort +25, Reflex +17, Will +22. The Batman build has +19/+19/+13. (+21/+21/+15 now with the new level cap.)
The paladin's base AB with Weapon Focus and Str of 14 will be +15/+10/+5 while Batman with a Str of 16 and weapon focus will be the same. Apply the same enchantments Paladin gets +22/+17/+12 while the Batman builds get +1 towards AB more. (You'll take hard hit to AB when you turn on combat expertise) However, the Paladin still has Smite Evil.
A pure-class fighter Dwarf gets +9 (Dwarven spell Resistance, Luck of Heroes, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will) With resistance equipment gets +5 more for 14 to all saves. That's Fort of 23, Reflex of 18 and Will of 17. Not only that a you can start off with a Str of 16 and end with a strength 23 if put all 7 points into strength for +6 points towards AB, +2 from Weapon Focus and Great Weapon Focus and +12 for a total of 20 AB. With enchantments it's 25. The damage of a pure class dwarven fighter is Str bonus of 6 + Weapon Specialization and Greater Specialization for 6 for a total of 12 and +5 from enchantments for a total of 17.
Lastly, this was more or less argument about how the Fighter can tank better than a Paladin, not how a cross-class can do better in certain areas than a pure class. Cross-classing shows how flawed the mechanics are of any DnD based game is and how players are more focused on making uber class builds than exploring the full pontential of their own class.
First mistake is comparing PnP DnD classes with DDO classes.
Secondly.. look at the above posts. all agreeing fighters are better tanks then paladins, and this is from people playing the game. there is no way i can presuade you, by sharing what i have experienced by playing this game., because, you are so narrow minded i cant even comprehend whats going through your head when you post your vast knowledge on the subject of DDO. The only way you can be prusaded is by trying it yourself im afraid.
My fighter is a hafling and his saves are +17 Fortitude, +15 Reflex, +15 Will. there is alot of ways to raise your saves, dont you worry. Now you are thinking <but that aint possible> YES it is...Play and try. another thing fighters have, which paladins cant use, is combat expertise.. raises your AC with +5, or +10 with improved.....I typed more here but erased it...its on deaf ears anyway, so i wont bother.
My paladin is fine.. acutally i can dare to say 90% of all paladins created are fine, because you only get 3 feats to choose freely.. all other feats are class feats. hard to roll a broken paladin imo.
but here he is.. any suggestions for improvment are most welcome..
DROW 8th PALADIN with one FIGHTER level - Stats: STR: 22 DEX: 14 CON:14 INT: 10 WIS: 18 CHR: 22. Hit Points: 139 Spell Points: 188 AC: 39 Saves: FORT: +20 REFLEX: +17 WILL: +16. Feats: Weapon focus - slashing, Exotic weapon - Bastard Sword, improved critical - slashing, and toughness. Enchantments: Bulwark of good, paladins charisma, Drow spell resistance, extra lay on hands.
go nuts...
AB: 12 Base + 3 Str bonus +1 Weapon Focus = 16 (+18 to +20 with rage and +22 if you put 3 point towards Str bonus for 19)
Fort: 8
Reflex: 4
Will: 3
AC: 18 or less.
Damage: 3 + 4 (Rage) for 7
Fighter
AB: 12 Base + 3 Str bonus + 2 Weapon Focus and Greater Focus = 17 (+20 if you put 7 point towards Str bonus for 23)
Fort: 8
Reflex: 4
Will: 3
AC: 20 to 33
Damage: 3 + 6 (Weapon Specialization) for 9
Barbarian are Constitution based characters in this game. The only thing Barbarian can do better than a Fighter is having more HP and running faster. Like the Paladin, they are gimped by the lack of feats and like a Fighter they have very poor saves except against fear and traps. The highest Dex your Barbarian can have as a base is 16 and they can only raise it to 19 to 21 depending on your race. If you use weapon fitness, you'll gimp your build if you rage. Well, what I'm trying to say is you're asking for a deathwish if you play a Barbarian pure class because they are gimp version of the Fighter. By the way, Uncanny Dodge is suppose to be a passive skill not an active skill.
HP: 10 to 12 per level
Base: 10
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Aura of Good: 2
Total AC: 34
Saves (Cha of 20 without enchatnments and Aura of Good)
Reflex: 3 + 0 + 5 + 2 = 9
Fort : 6 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 14
Will: 3 + 2 + 5 + 2 = 11
Fighter
HP: 10 to 12 per level (13 if you're a Dwarf)
Base: 11
Full Plate: 8
Tower Shield: 4
Total Enchantments from Armor: 10
Total AC: 34
Saves
Reflex: 3 + 1 = 4
Fort : 6 + 2 = 8
Will: 3 + 0 = 3
Seeing as you're using your elitist attitude only shows you're running out of arguments. Tanking mean holding the frontlines and surviving. A fighter cannot survive magic attack without the aid of potions, clerics or other paladins. The DC of a spell is 10 + level of creature + Status Modifier. Even with resistance equipment you wouldn't be able save against high level Reflex or Will spells. One holding spell and five swing later, you're dead and fear prevents you from attacking. If you're Fighter of level 10, whom I assuming is human, can pass every save without a problem, then monsters are either gimped, there's a bug that's protect you or you using potions & clerics.
As for the rest of what you said, it was the same thing I said. I already said a fighter can do better DPS and get more feats, I admitted that earlier. However, improve trip isn't a tanking skill, it's a tactic feat. Fighters improve their AC through, Dodge and Fighter's enchantments, but you would have to get both enchantments (Fighter's Armor and Tower Shield Mastery.) that allow them to increase their AC with both the tower shield and full armor plate to do it. (It also gimps your tactics) There's fighter mobility, but this still doesn't help the fact that your saves suck.
A paladin gets Bulkwark of Good, which gives them +5 for an AC of 37 and save bonus from Cha +5, Resistance of Good +3 and Paladin's Grace +2 for total of 10 towards saves. To top it off, we can use healing spell and protection spells. The only race that comes close to making a Fighter into a paladin is the Dwarf who gets +6 to spell saves with enchantments +3 with saving boosting feats for total of +9.
I may have not played a paladin in this game or made it pass level 4 with my Fighter, but you're talking to fan of the DnD and Forgotten Realm series, hun. I've played a Paladin two times: in a campaign and Neverwinter Nights. Plus, the enchantments are explained on this page: http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=339&menus=e&do=enhancements&cmi==6&siid=18
So, yes Paladins do make better tanks at higher levels and maybe if you applied the same emphasis in your Paladin that you did with your Fighter, you would see this. Maybe if post the status and equipment of both your Fighter and Paladin, we have better idea of what you working with and maybe I can help fix your broken Paladin.
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I didn't see many bards when I got to the marketplace. By your logic, I've should have seen a high ratio of bards in groups in the marketplace. I saw more clerics than Bards and with enable chat on, I could hear the players asking for a Cleric rather than a bard. In otherwords, in 8 of the dungeon runs I did, shouldn't 6 to 7 of those run involve having a bard in the group? Since I didn't see any bard in the marketplace all that much, you're either lying about the amount of bards that being played or exaggarating how well liked the bards are.
I will say I did see a lot bards in the harbor area, hun.
Also, you throw out all these pally abilities without also considering all the feats that a fighter of such a high lvl would have. Fighters get feats at almost every level and you have to consider those as well.
You should also consider that not everything in the pnp rules plays out the same in DDO. However, I've played DDO (for months) and pnp (for years). I have played both classes in both. And never in any instance or any game was a pally a better all around tank than a fighter it just doesn't happen.
As for your comments about bards...I think my experience in playing a bard to lvl 10 (and getting groups easily) trumps your "research" looking for bards in the first 4 lvls of the game.
If you knew the pnp rules as well as you claim then you would know the value of a bard
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Secondly, none of those people posted any fighter build that oppose argument I made. I at least back my statements with raw data on how I build my fighters. By the way, Halflings get +1 to all saves, Halfling luck III grants +3 for 4 for a total of 7 to Reflex and Will while Fort gets +10. Resistance items, Status boost items and feats can easily make up for the other. But your Halfling Fighter is no where near the saves of dwarves and you'll still not better tank than a paladin. What do you think the saves and AC of a Elf, Human and Warforge look like?
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If your paladin is fine why are you so afraid to post his status and equipment.
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Your drow a cross-class, I don't know why you posted that. Was there a meaning behind post that?
I'm starting to hat the quote feature. I'll only use it when I have to. Your post no different from BesCirga and I response is still the same.
Well CapLast I can tell you I have been a subscriber to DDO for about a month and half now. I play a bard as my main and I'm lvl 8 now. I offer no proof so you can take it for all its worth to you.
Every night I log in my bard if I'm idle and not in a group checking auction house or seeing what is open I will get a tell asking to join a group for a run. This happens almost everynight. Sometimes I get to many tells and I have to turn some away. No I'm not the primary healer in the group cause their short a cleric.
And remember I play on the "empty" as you said with CapRPG Riedra server, go figure. Bards rock.
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Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate.
I just re-read your post and I don't know how I missed it. Suddenly I understand why we are arguing. This statement tells me one thing.
Fighters, on the other hand, are constitution based characters. Str being second.
No wonder you feel so ill towards barbarians...if you try to build you barbarian to be a fighter guess what you will end up with.....(in your own words) "a gimped-out fighter" Fighters and barbarians are completely different and both beneficial when built right.
You've already stated that you won't back down from an argument that you started so you will just go on and on...but bottom line is. you're wrong.
Barbarian is Constitution based character because their rage last longer with every bonus point towards your Con Modifier. It say so in my 3.0 Player Edition Handbook.
Lastly, I'm pretty sure you can provide a sample build of a barbarian that exceed a Fighter?
Yeah and you are the expert on building classes...which is why you think a barbarian is only a gimped fighter.
geez just give it up.
So the PnP DnD is the same as DDO ? What experience do you base that on? All im saying is; you cant take a class from DnD PnP and think it works exacly the same in DDO! because it dont.
You want to see my equipment to? sure why not.... (dont know what you mean by status tho)
+5 full plate, +5 towershield, +4 cold iron bastard sword of pure good (main weapon), +4 Str gloves, +4 Con belt, +4 wis necklace, +4 dex ring, +3 charisma/intimitate helm, +2 resistance cloak with lesser cold resist, +70 SP trinket, Chaosguard bracers (constant protection vs evil spell and +2 dodge bonus to ac), greater devotion 2 ring, +15% striding boots.
hope this makes you happy....
If you didnt find my race or class build interesting, then i apologies.. my bad <roll eyes>
Not one person in here has backed you up about the fighter Vs Paladin tank abilities.. isnt about time to admit you may not have a clue? and there might be a slightest chance your wrong in your Theory: My experience in PnP = like it is in DDO and to hell with current playing subscribers opinions.....im just asking...