This isn't just a Vanguard problem its a forum wide problem and thats my point. Take it however you like but how many civil discussions stay civil in any thread about any game. When Sigil looks at how the threads here usually develop there is definitely a problem. I would agree Silky Venom isn't exactly a peaceful place at the moment but that doesn't mean mmorpg.com can't be. Those that dislike the game aren't the problem and I actually made that clear, its those that try to start things in whatever area of the forum they are in. Feel free to disagree with me but thats my take.
Civility is always nice, but it just isn't really possible. Forums are dictated by that whole bad apple idiom as well; no matter what forum and what game. Sounds cynical, but being realistic towards the problem is needed to grow skin thick enough to weed through such forums in order to find anything useful.
Ultimately I agree, I'd like for MMORPG.com to be more civil than SilkyVenom...but it just isn't likely. SilkyVenom's posters have more inclination to be positive given they're surrounded by developer activity and they're sort of a primer Affiliate Site, but even they suffer from negative posts. It is the fault of Vanguard's inadequacies that the bulk of the hate exists...but that isn't to say all would be peachy and folks would behave perfectly civil and well-mannered in the presence of a perfect game.
Anyway, I know what you mean, but like I said...bad apples.
Originally posted by treysmooth
The other issue is more opinion does enjoying Vanguard make me a viral marketer for the game, hardly its simply the game I enjoy atm, but many take cheap shots at anyone that say anything positive about the game. My comment toward the Staff writer was to more point out that he fuels the fire when it comes to post such as those. The way he words it is as if anyone that might say something positive has an agenda, and this is hardly true.
Honestly, I think its cruel to accuse someone of being a viral marketer. Mainly because anyone will instantly connect connotations to the accusation such as shallowness or outright lying. It's offensive when someone is being pretty personal about their views of Vanguard only to be called a viral marketer.
Unfortunately though, Brad has taken it upon himself to repeatedly define exactly what a Vanguard viral marketer is.
What the game needs is a re-launch of sorts, including targeted marketing campaigns, an all-around successful move by gamers to the next generation of hardware, continued good word of mouth ‘viral' marketing by those who are already playing, enjoying, and re-subscribing.
So technically, when people like healz4u rant specifically about how their re-subscription experiences are going, they're fitting Brad's definition of a Vanguard viral marketer exactly. So who's fault is it? Is it the fault of the "haters" for hijacking the phrase and using it as a weapon of sorts, or is it the fault of Brad generalizing those positive about his game as viral marketers?
Ultimately the negative connotations associated with the word are of our own minds due to past experiences with viral marketing, such as the whole idea of viral marketers being merely tools of sorts. If you'd ask me, I'd say it's Brad fault for repeatedly using the word. The key to good viral marketing is an influenced person not noticing it anyway, so he's forever wounded his approach to it by both repeatedly admitting to attempting it and defining his viral marketers messages. It's justly so that some folks feel some people might be answering Brad's call, or inadvertently fit his own descriptions of what a viral marketer is.
Anyway, no it isn't right that you be called a viral marketer, but it isn't Cymdal or MMORPG.com's job to censor the word when Brad himself is the one that provoked paranoia of it.
Originally posted by treysmooth
Honestly I'm not here to convince anyone to play the game, thats not my job, I'm simply here to post my opinion like anyone else. I do it in a civil manner and expect others to try to do the same, if thats asking to much I guess maybe I hold people to a higher standard than I should. In that way I won't change and I don't feel I should have to. There are many games I don't really care for that I've played in the past but I don't make it my cause to bring them down through any means necessary. Many times I post my thoughts of the game and move on, not that I expect everyone to do it that way but if you want to bring something to the discussion, do so, and try to do it with some tact.
Take my post with a grain of salt but over the last year I've seen a change in the way threads develop here, maybe its the fact MMO's have become more mainstream and draw a much larger crowd, I don't know, I do know that flame wars and childish cheap-shots are not what brought me to mmorpg.com to begin with.
Regards,
Trey
If you believe there's a systemic issue with MMORPG.com's policing of all their boards, I'd suggest bringing it up elsewhere. Not to sound dismissive, just that I think your point would come across clearer when it isn't mixed up with attempting to use Cymdal as an example on Vanguard's sketchy issues. Your sentiments are deserving of a thread of their own, on General or some such...but I wouldn't drive myself crazy trying to understand or influence any bad behavior trends you're noticing. Protect your sanity!
Official forums provides a place for people to go that enjoy the game. Were they can have intelligent discussions about the game, in a neat and orderly fashion. SV is a voluntery site. Those people aren't being paid. Do you really think they have the resources to moderate every idiotic post that gets made there.
Just look at the number of posts here. You think the same thing isn't happening on SV? These two sites have something in common. Neither one is moderated by Sigil or SoE.
We need official forums that are moderated, were we won't be flooded by ridiculous, over exagerated, SoE hate filled posts. Were it is moderated by a paid CS specialist.
I don't expect MMORPG.com to moderate these boards so that those of us that like it can feel more welcome. It's up to them to use thier resources as they see fit. But I do agree with what Trey is trying to get across.
Employees of this site posting the same kind of hate for the game, only gives the impression that this is were you go if you want to put down a game. Whether or not what the haters have to say is valid or otherwise has become irrelevent. However, I do not believe that it is a site wide problem. I check out the other game forums here, and this is the one with the employee who instigates hate. It is also one of the most active, and hostile enviroments on this sit.
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Regards
Trey
Well, I'll start by saying that it's not my job to moderate these forums. I'm a Staff Writer, not a Forum Moderator. Big difference there.
Also, I don't fan flames. In fact, I often explain my posts if they generate flames. Some of my biggest critics, Reklaw and faaric1, could tell you that I'm happy to clarify/specify if my post is misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I'd like to think I do a great job here, as I interact with the community openly. But it's funny; for every person who disagrees with me, I'm immediately called out for a lack of professionalism. It's like the new trend on this board. Nothing better to say? Let's point out Cymdai, and his open posting style, and criticize him for not being professional. This is the internet, not a Corporate Desk Job. I do this in my off-time, so pardon me if I don't feel the need to treat every forum post like a life-or-death situation. If you generally find yourself that offended or disgusted with my comments, there's a wonderful little "Block" button on the screen. Block me, and the problem's solved. Before Vanguard, I don't think I was ever once accused of being "unprofessional", but it seems to be a weekly trend on this board. I guess that's people's way of coping with Vanguard's problems; turn the negative critics into scapegoats in order to discredit them...
It's also somewhat amusing to me though. I don't think I ever openly just go out and flame, though I openly express my concerns for this game. But again, if you listen to some of the people posting on this forum, you'd think I was posting like a 11 year old kiddie, hating in 1337speak, with unfounded and unjustified hate, even though most of the times I'll offer solutions and remedies to what I think are the problems with Vanguard.
I digress though...to touch on your points.
Point 1) No. This is NOT a genre-wide problem. Go to SOE's forums, or EvE online's forums. They moderate threads strictly. This is done because employees are paid to do this job, and they are there to ensure off-topic posting, thread nercoing, trolling, and other such problems are non-existent. Here at MMORPG.com, SilkyVenom, and other such sites, we are NOT paid to "tidy up" the forums. As a result, you're going to see much more negativity, because there's not a guy here who's job is to delete negative posting (ala SOE). This is Sigil's problem, and the controversy of them not utilizing official forums has been a cause for concern since Beta 3.
Point 2) You don't seem to understand the problem here. People already feel as though they were "burned" for $50 bucks once, why should they touch the same hot stove twice? If you pay money for a product, and it's deemed inferior/dis-satisfactory to you, the customer has every right to openly vent their frustrations.
Point 3) I can't deny that there are some blind haters here. But they're easy to spot. Anyone who blames SOE for Sigil's mistakes are almost always called out for it immediately. But this is a double-edged sword. There are blind fanboy's too, and they'd have you believe this game was a bug-free, lag-free, diamond in the rough.
Point 4) The developers came here briefly. However, MMORPG has always had a harsh, demanding community. People didn't want to hear any more promises, or apologies for what went wrong, etc etc. People demanded results. When the results weren't enough, they left. How does that old quote go... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" or something along those lines, right? That's my take on what happened. Sigil and co. realized there words were falling on deaf ears, so they packed up and left. Can you really blame people for not wanting to hear about what is coming, what should have been done, what they hope to achieve? How about what is done, what is already there, and what's been achieved?
Also, I clarified my statement regarding low post counts and viral marketing. It's unfortunate you wish to deliberately misconstrue my statement to try and make a point.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Well, I'll start by saying that it's not my job to moderate these forums. I'm a Staff Writer, not a Forum Moderator. Big difference there.
Also, I don't fan flames. In fact, I often explain my posts if they generate flames. Some of my biggest critics, Reklaw and faaric1, could tell you that I'm happy to clarify/specify if my post is misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I'd like to think I do a great job here, as I interact with the community openly. But it's funny; for every person who disagrees with me, I'm immediately called out for a lack of professionalism. It's like the new trend on this board. Nothing better to say? Let's point out Cymdai, and his open posting style, and criticize him for not being professional. This is the internet, not a Corporate Desk Job. I do this in my off-time, so pardon me if I don't feel the need to treat every forum post like a life-or-death situation. If you generally find yourself that offended or disgusted with my comments, there's a wonderful little "Block" button on the screen. Block me, and the problem's solved. Before Vanguard, I don't think I was ever once accused of being "unprofessional", but it seems to be a weekly trend on this board. I guess that's people's way of coping with Vanguard's problems; turn the negative critics into scapegoats in order to discredit them...
It's also somewhat amusing to me though. I don't think I ever openly just go out and flame, though I openly express my concerns for this game. But again, if you listen to some of the people posting on this forum, you'd think I was posting like a 11 year old kiddie, hating in 1337speak, with unfounded and unjustified hate, even though most of the times I'll offer solutions and remedies to what I think are the problems with Vanguard.
I digress though...to touch on your points.
Point 1) No. This is NOT a genre-wide problem. Go to SOE's forums, or EvE online's forums. They moderate threads strictly. This is done because employees are paid to do this job, and they are there to ensure off-topic posting, thread nercoing, trolling, and other such problems are non-existent. Here at MMORPG.com, SilkyVenom, and other such sites, we are NOT paid to "tidy up" the forums. As a result, you're going to see much more negativity, because there's not a guy here who's job is to delete negative posting (ala SOE). This is Sigil's problem, and the controversy of them not utilizing official forums has been a cause for concern since Beta 3.
Point 2) You don't seem to understand the problem here. People already feel as though they were "burned" for $50 bucks once, why should they touch the same hot stove twice? If you pay money for a product, and it's deemed inferior/dis-satisfactory to you, the customer has every right to openly vent their frustrations.
Point 3) I can't deny that there are some blind haters here. But they're easy to spot. Anyone who blames SOE for Sigil's mistakes are almost always called out for it immediately. But this is a double-edged sword. There are blind fanboy's too, and they'd have you believe this game was a bug-free, lag-free, diamond in the rough.
Point 4) The developers came here briefly. However, MMORPG has always had a harsh, demanding community. People didn't want to hear any more promises, or apologies for what went wrong, etc etc. People demanded results. When the results weren't enough, they left. How does that old quote go... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" or something along those lines, right? That's my take on what happened. Sigil and co. realized there words were falling on deaf ears, so they packed up and left. Can you really blame people for not wanting to hear about what is coming, what should have been done, what they hope to achieve? How about what is done, what is already there, and what's been achieved?
Also, I clarified my statement regarding low post counts and viral marketing. It's unfortunate you wish to deliberately misconstrue my statement to try and make a point.
Very nicely said. Actually I got burned for $100 cause I bought the limited edition however the cloth map makes a great handkerchief. But it's more than that for me. When I started to play the game right after launch I got my guild to buy a copy as well so we could play as a group. You can only imagine how big of an ass I felt like when hardly anyone could play the game cause of the bugs. Some of us actually had built brand new comps for this years games and still could not run it without spikes and hitching. Granted most of us are using 8800gtx cards and duo cpu's which I guess the game doesn't support well. Still overall I felt like an ass to recondmend this product.
The other problem I have is the trend for some publishers to release unfinished products on us PC gamers. Console players don't have to put with it so why is it a norm with PC players? I understand technical issues because no two machines are alike but it does not explain gameplay issues not being fixed and tested BEFORE going gold. Publishers would never think of releasing a game with this amount of gameplay bugs on Consoles so why do they do it with us?
Think about this. SOE knew the game was not ready for primetime and yet they clamped down and said to go live with it anyway. Why? Right now the game will never be able to recover from what has been done. If they just would've just finished it, the subs would prolly be double if not more than it is right now. Plus it would've shown that SOE does care about it's customers. But no! Not SOE! Just like they did with SWG they threw it out there unfinished to let us pay for w/e dev costs they have incurred.
Yes it's Sigils fault for NOT being ready for the release date but it is NOT their fault the game was released unfinished! SOE is the one that pushed it out in the condition it was in. Yes I understand SOE shouldn't of had to keep paying Brad and Co for not making the deadlines but SOE should've also had more respect for US the customer by not releasing it until it was done! Now that they will take it over, they will end up spending more money on it trying to fix the problems anyway. Why didn't they just do that before the release? Was it to get the IP on the cheap? It just doesn't make any sense. But from my angle it just looks like I got took for a ride.
Maybe consumer protection groups need to become more involved with MMO's like they have with other products
If the players don't read these forums do you really thing that anyone at Sigil would read them then. I mean, I wouldn't visit a forum full of people that hated and lied about my product if there wasn't at least a few people there that enjoyed it.
I would have to agree that many players don't visit this forum for information. First there has to be information here for them to visit, and since you can't post information without it turning out just as this thread and every other one on this forum.
Me, I don't mind you guys hating. Gives me something to do when I'm not playing an MMO. I just disagree with lying.
Well, I personally would take a different approach.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Regards
Trey
Well, I'll start by saying that it's not my job to moderate these forums. I'm a Staff Writer, not a Forum Moderator. Big difference there.
Also, I don't fan flames. In fact, I often explain my posts if they generate flames. Some of my biggest critics, Reklaw and faaric1, could tell you that I'm happy to clarify/specify if my post is misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I'd like to think I do a great job here, as I interact with the community openly. But it's funny; for every person who disagrees with me, I'm immediately called out for a lack of professionalism. It's like the new trend on this board. Nothing better to say? Let's point out Cymdai, and his open posting style, and criticize him for not being professional. This is the internet, not a Corporate Desk Job. I do this in my off-time, so pardon me if I don't feel the need to treat every forum post like a life-or-death situation. If you generally find yourself that offended or disgusted with my comments, there's a wonderful little "Block" button on the screen. Block me, and the problem's solved. Before Vanguard, I don't think I was ever once accused of being "unprofessional", but it seems to be a weekly trend on this board. I guess that's people's way of coping with Vanguard's problems; turn the negative critics into scapegoats in order to discredit them...
It's also somewhat amusing to me though. I don't think I ever openly just go out and flame, though I openly express my concerns for this game. But again, if you listen to some of the people posting on this forum, you'd think I was posting like a 11 year old kiddie, hating in 1337speak, with unfounded and unjustified hate, even though most of the times I'll offer solutions and remedies to what I think are the problems with Vanguard.
I digress though...to touch on your points.
Point 1) No. This is NOT a genre-wide problem. Go to SOE's forums, or EvE online's forums. They moderate threads strictly. This is done because employees are paid to do this job, and they are there to ensure off-topic posting, thread nercoing, trolling, and other such problems are non-existent. Here at MMORPG.com, SilkyVenom, and other such sites, we are NOT paid to "tidy up" the forums. As a result, you're going to see much more negativity, because there's not a guy here who's job is to delete negative posting (ala SOE). This is Sigil's problem, and the controversy of them not utilizing official forums has been a cause for concern since Beta 3.
Point 2) You don't seem to understand the problem here. People already feel as though they were "burned" for $50 bucks once, why should they touch the same hot stove twice? If you pay money for a product, and it's deemed inferior/dis-satisfactory to you, the customer has every right to openly vent their frustrations.
Point 3) I can't deny that there are some blind haters here. But they're easy to spot. Anyone who blames SOE for Sigil's mistakes are almost always called out for it immediately. But this is a double-edged sword. There are blind fanboy's too, and they'd have you believe this game was a bug-free, lag-free, diamond in the rough.
Point 4) The developers came here briefly. However, MMORPG has always had a harsh, demanding community. People didn't want to hear any more promises, or apologies for what went wrong, etc etc. People demanded results. When the results weren't enough, they left. How does that old quote go... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" or something along those lines, right? That's my take on what happened. Sigil and co. realized there words were falling on deaf ears, so they packed up and left. Can you really blame people for not wanting to hear about what is coming, what should have been done, what they hope to achieve? How about what is done, what is already there, and what's been achieved?
Also, I clarified my statement regarding low post counts and viral marketing. It's unfortunate you wish to deliberately misconstrue my statement to try and make a point.
After rereading some of your post I think I did take the labeling supporters viral marketers out of context and for that my apologies I mis read one of your post and you did in fact specify low post counts. Its was someone else that was generalizing viral marketers, my mistake and I will happily admit when I wrong. More than anything the negative attitude has frustrated me and I may have taken out my disdain for these changes on you and this was my mistake, again I will man up when I was wrong.
As far as the take that the forums here in general haven't all taken on a negative tone, I would still disagree. Things seem pretty bad through the general threads as well as the game specific ones throughout these forums and on this I guess we have to agree to disagree. I occasionally see someone called out for blind hate but just as often others use those post to further take cheap shots and continue the trend, I would hardly say they are mostly called out, I simply don't see that. The blind fanboy's for any game are a problem and I would agree those that paint this picture of the perfect game are doing more damage than good for the game. I don't understand the blind fanboys anymore than the haters but each game has them.
On the devs leaving I think they saw the environment as unreachable no matter what they did, and due to the toxic nature of many of the threads, those of us that might have something inciteful to say often hold back because of the backlash from the types of people I mentioned before. It comes back to how much valuable info can you collect versus time wasted wading through the garbage post and whether it is truly worth it, obviously it wasn't.
As far as not touching the game again because it wasn't what they wanted from the get go, well it is an mmo. I'm not saying everyone should return in droves but if you have spent the 50 dollars and you know mmo's are works in progress a return after hearing from credible people that many things broken/missing are being added and fixed doesn't seem to be out of the question. I played SWG at launch and eventually took a break out of frustration, i however didn't let that stop me from giving it a second chance once things improved in my mind. In the same way I don't think everyone who had a bad experience in the beginning should completely write off Vanguard as beyond repair, through my eyes that simply isn't the case, again opinion. Does it excuse the developers for releasing early? not at all, neither should it doom the game no matter what changes take place.
As far as nothing better to say I call things like I see them, if you don't agree with me thats ok but at least you took the time to respond in a mature manner. I was probably overly critical of you but this site has gone from the main place I enjoy posting and exchanging ideas to a site I visit on occasion but hardly post and to be honest it frustrates me. Probably won't make much difference but I hope you can see the shift in attitude on this site and how it might frustrate some of us that enjoy a debate of ideas rather than an immature battle of the e peen that this sites threads have taken on.
Comments
Ultimately I agree, I'd like for MMORPG.com to be more civil than SilkyVenom...but it just isn't likely. SilkyVenom's posters have more inclination to be positive given they're surrounded by developer activity and they're sort of a primer Affiliate Site, but even they suffer from negative posts. It is the fault of Vanguard's inadequacies that the bulk of the hate exists...but that isn't to say all would be peachy and folks would behave perfectly civil and well-mannered in the presence of a perfect game.
Anyway, I know what you mean, but like I said...bad apples.
Honestly, I think its cruel to accuse someone of being a viral marketer. Mainly because anyone will instantly connect connotations to the accusation such as shallowness or outright lying. It's offensive when someone is being pretty personal about their views of Vanguard only to be called a viral marketer.
Unfortunately though, Brad has taken it upon himself to repeatedly define exactly what a Vanguard viral marketer is.
What the game needs is a re-launch of sorts, including targeted marketing campaigns, an all-around successful move by gamers to the next generation of hardware, continued good word of mouth ‘viral' marketing by those who are already playing, enjoying, and re-subscribing.
Source: One of Brad's most recent addresses.
So technically, when people like healz4u rant specifically about how their re-subscription experiences are going, they're fitting Brad's definition of a Vanguard viral marketer exactly. So who's fault is it? Is it the fault of the "haters" for hijacking the phrase and using it as a weapon of sorts, or is it the fault of Brad generalizing those positive about his game as viral marketers?
Ultimately the negative connotations associated with the word are of our own minds due to past experiences with viral marketing, such as the whole idea of viral marketers being merely tools of sorts. If you'd ask me, I'd say it's Brad fault for repeatedly using the word. The key to good viral marketing is an influenced person not noticing it anyway, so he's forever wounded his approach to it by both repeatedly admitting to attempting it and defining his viral marketers messages. It's justly so that some folks feel some people might be answering Brad's call, or inadvertently fit his own descriptions of what a viral marketer is.
Anyway, no it isn't right that you be called a viral marketer, but it isn't Cymdal or MMORPG.com's job to censor the word when Brad himself is the one that provoked paranoia of it.
If you believe there's a systemic issue with MMORPG.com's policing of all their boards, I'd suggest bringing it up elsewhere. Not to sound dismissive, just that I think your point would come across clearer when it isn't mixed up with attempting to use Cymdal as an example on Vanguard's sketchy issues. Your sentiments are deserving of a thread of their own, on General or some such...but I wouldn't drive myself crazy trying to understand or influence any bad behavior trends you're noticing. Protect your sanity!
Check out the number of posts being made in the below forums. Look down the replies line of the posts on the front page.
Then take a look at VG.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/446
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/432
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/496
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/450
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/492
Official forums provides a place for people to go that enjoy the game. Were they can have intelligent discussions about the game, in a neat and orderly fashion. SV is a voluntery site. Those people aren't being paid. Do you really think they have the resources to moderate every idiotic post that gets made there.
Just look at the number of posts here. You think the same thing isn't happening on SV? These two sites have something in common. Neither one is moderated by Sigil or SoE.
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/forums/list.m This is what we get.
We need official forums that are moderated, were we won't be flooded by ridiculous, over exagerated, SoE hate filled posts. Were it is moderated by a paid CS specialist.
I don't expect MMORPG.com to moderate these boards so that those of us that like it can feel more welcome. It's up to them to use thier resources as they see fit. But I do agree with what Trey is trying to get across.
Employees of this site posting the same kind of hate for the game, only gives the impression that this is were you go if you want to put down a game. Whether or not what the haters have to say is valid or otherwise has become irrelevent. However, I do not believe that it is a site wide problem. I check out the other game forums here, and this is the one with the employee who instigates hate. It is also one of the most active, and hostile enviroments on this sit.
Coinsident? I don't think so.
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Regards
Trey
Well, I'll start by saying that it's not my job to moderate these forums. I'm a Staff Writer, not a Forum Moderator. Big difference there.
Also, I don't fan flames. In fact, I often explain my posts if they generate flames. Some of my biggest critics, Reklaw and faaric1, could tell you that I'm happy to clarify/specify if my post is misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I'd like to think I do a great job here, as I interact with the community openly. But it's funny; for every person who disagrees with me, I'm immediately called out for a lack of professionalism. It's like the new trend on this board. Nothing better to say? Let's point out Cymdai, and his open posting style, and criticize him for not being professional. This is the internet, not a Corporate Desk Job. I do this in my off-time, so pardon me if I don't feel the need to treat every forum post like a life-or-death situation. If you generally find yourself that offended or disgusted with my comments, there's a wonderful little "Block" button on the screen. Block me, and the problem's solved. Before Vanguard, I don't think I was ever once accused of being "unprofessional", but it seems to be a weekly trend on this board. I guess that's people's way of coping with Vanguard's problems; turn the negative critics into scapegoats in order to discredit them...
It's also somewhat amusing to me though. I don't think I ever openly just go out and flame, though I openly express my concerns for this game. But again, if you listen to some of the people posting on this forum, you'd think I was posting like a 11 year old kiddie, hating in 1337speak, with unfounded and unjustified hate, even though most of the times I'll offer solutions and remedies to what I think are the problems with Vanguard.
I digress though...to touch on your points.
Point 1) No. This is NOT a genre-wide problem. Go to SOE's forums, or EvE online's forums. They moderate threads strictly. This is done because employees are paid to do this job, and they are there to ensure off-topic posting, thread nercoing, trolling, and other such problems are non-existent. Here at MMORPG.com, SilkyVenom, and other such sites, we are NOT paid to "tidy up" the forums. As a result, you're going to see much more negativity, because there's not a guy here who's job is to delete negative posting (ala SOE). This is Sigil's problem, and the controversy of them not utilizing official forums has been a cause for concern since Beta 3.
Point 2) You don't seem to understand the problem here. People already feel as though they were "burned" for $50 bucks once, why should they touch the same hot stove twice? If you pay money for a product, and it's deemed inferior/dis-satisfactory to you, the customer has every right to openly vent their frustrations.
Point 3) I can't deny that there are some blind haters here. But they're easy to spot. Anyone who blames SOE for Sigil's mistakes are almost always called out for it immediately. But this is a double-edged sword. There are blind fanboy's too, and they'd have you believe this game was a bug-free, lag-free, diamond in the rough.
Point 4) The developers came here briefly. However, MMORPG has always had a harsh, demanding community. People didn't want to hear any more promises, or apologies for what went wrong, etc etc. People demanded results. When the results weren't enough, they left. How does that old quote go... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" or something along those lines, right? That's my take on what happened. Sigil and co. realized there words were falling on deaf ears, so they packed up and left. Can you really blame people for not wanting to hear about what is coming, what should have been done, what they hope to achieve? How about what is done, what is already there, and what's been achieved?
Also, I clarified my statement regarding low post counts and viral marketing. It's unfortunate you wish to deliberately misconstrue my statement to try and make a point.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Very nicely said. Actually I got burned for $100 cause I bought the limited edition
The other problem I have is the trend for some publishers to release unfinished products on us PC gamers. Console players don't have to put with it so why is it a norm with PC players? I understand technical issues because no two machines are alike but it does not explain gameplay issues not being fixed and tested BEFORE going gold. Publishers would never think of releasing a game with this amount of gameplay bugs on Consoles so why do they do it with us?
Think about this. SOE knew the game was not ready for primetime and yet they clamped down and said to go live with it anyway. Why? Right now the game will never be able to recover from what has been done. If they just would've just finished it, the subs would prolly be double if not more than it is right now. Plus it would've shown that SOE does care about it's customers. But no! Not SOE! Just like they did with SWG they threw it out there unfinished to let us pay for w/e dev costs they have incurred.
Yes it's Sigils fault for NOT being ready for the release date but it is NOT their fault the game was released unfinished! SOE is the one that pushed it out in the condition it was in. Yes I understand SOE shouldn't of had to keep paying Brad and Co for not making the deadlines but SOE should've also had more respect for US the customer by not releasing it until it was done! Now that they will take it over, they will end up spending more money on it trying to fix the problems anyway. Why didn't they just do that before the release? Was it to get the IP on the cheap? It just doesn't make any sense. But from my angle it just looks like I got took for a ride.
Maybe consumer protection groups need to become more involved with MMO's like they have with other products
I think Sigil should have a close look at these forums. Let them see what they're up against, know why people are as mad as they are, and what can be done to correct/remedy the hatred.
Here is one of the issues with MMORPG.com at the current point in time, you as a staff writer are of course going to be swayed by your own personal opinions as everyone is, but.... instead of trying to moderate discussions and keep people on topic you seem to fan the flames and through your post add fuel to the fire of those that are the problem with this site currently.
I find a huge difference between a discussion with opposing views and what generally goes on in these forums. People routinely attack other people and accuse them of being a paid shill or part of the game staff. As silly as these remarks are they add nothing to the discussion and usually send the thread further into the muck, where the childish name-calling and flaming intensifies. YOU as a staff writer should be there to A. get people back on topic and B. Moderate those that decide that a civilized conversation is beyond their capabilities. Instead of helping the situation you often make post that read more like a player scorned than a staff writer for a very popular mmo forum.
I'll address your view that they should take a different view of the hostile environment on mmorpg.com and why I believe they won't use your line of thinking.
Point 1 This isn't simply a issue that exist in the Vanguard forums, this is a site wide pattern of behavior that basically runs rampant through all threads involving all games and all areas of discussion.
Point 2 If you truly wade through what amounts to threads that often go double digit page wise deep and are often repeated, there is very little viable information to be gained on REAL complaints or reasons for the hate. No I don't count it was released to early or it ran poorly at launch as viable complaints, why? because they are no longer legit concerns for the CURRENT state of the game. Yes the game was released to early, Yes it ran poorly at launch but unless Sigil plans on bending the rules of time and space this may be a tough one to magically fix.
Point 3 Those that make the most noise often hate for no other reason but to hate, sort of related to point 2 but hear me out. I know of multiple people that come into the threads simply to bash the game, not because they played it and disliked it, not because it ran poorly on their system, but because they hate SOE and anything that has to do with the company.
Guess what I loathe SOE as a company but when I look at the mmo's currently available I had to look at what was out there and decide if I would let the game I enjoy pass me by or would I simply tolerate the company to enjoy the product that they are apart of, I chose the later.
Here again Sigil can't really gather much wisdom from a certain poster who makes one line post and might just have a female jedi image in there signature when their post amount to I hope the game dies because SOE once screwed me over. I use that particular person as an example as they are very combative, never try to make any sort of point and are simply posting to piss others off and continue their unhealthy obsession with what SOE did to them at one time, long long ago... in a galaxy far away. Honestly what do you expect them to take away from spending hours thumbing through sophomoric flames between disgruntled people. Well I guess we chose the wrong publisher, again can't be changed and pointless to harp on it.
Point 4 If I remember correctly the people at Sigil tried to post and have open feedback with the people that frequent these forums but the usual people come out of the woodwork and flooded the threads to the point that they probably had to step back and say am I gaining anything from this or am I simply wasting time, well they made their choice.
Before you start proclaiming "all the answers" you might wanna consider what already has taken place and what has led to the current state of MMORPG.com in the eyes of some of your fans as well as developers. To me a little professionalism goes a long way, in this thread you are hearing from not just people with a few post but people such as myself and those like me that have made many post over a significant amount of time, something to consider before you starting profiling all of us as those pesky viral marketers that you seem so sure we must be.
Regards
Trey
Well, I'll start by saying that it's not my job to moderate these forums. I'm a Staff Writer, not a Forum Moderator. Big difference there.
Also, I don't fan flames. In fact, I often explain my posts if they generate flames. Some of my biggest critics, Reklaw and faaric1, could tell you that I'm happy to clarify/specify if my post is misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I'd like to think I do a great job here, as I interact with the community openly. But it's funny; for every person who disagrees with me, I'm immediately called out for a lack of professionalism. It's like the new trend on this board. Nothing better to say? Let's point out Cymdai, and his open posting style, and criticize him for not being professional. This is the internet, not a Corporate Desk Job. I do this in my off-time, so pardon me if I don't feel the need to treat every forum post like a life-or-death situation. If you generally find yourself that offended or disgusted with my comments, there's a wonderful little "Block" button on the screen. Block me, and the problem's solved. Before Vanguard, I don't think I was ever once accused of being "unprofessional", but it seems to be a weekly trend on this board. I guess that's people's way of coping with Vanguard's problems; turn the negative critics into scapegoats in order to discredit them...
It's also somewhat amusing to me though. I don't think I ever openly just go out and flame, though I openly express my concerns for this game. But again, if you listen to some of the people posting on this forum, you'd think I was posting like a 11 year old kiddie, hating in 1337speak, with unfounded and unjustified hate, even though most of the times I'll offer solutions and remedies to what I think are the problems with Vanguard.
I digress though...to touch on your points.
Point 1) No. This is NOT a genre-wide problem. Go to SOE's forums, or EvE online's forums. They moderate threads strictly. This is done because employees are paid to do this job, and they are there to ensure off-topic posting, thread nercoing, trolling, and other such problems are non-existent. Here at MMORPG.com, SilkyVenom, and other such sites, we are NOT paid to "tidy up" the forums. As a result, you're going to see much more negativity, because there's not a guy here who's job is to delete negative posting (ala SOE). This is Sigil's problem, and the controversy of them not utilizing official forums has been a cause for concern since Beta 3.
Point 2) You don't seem to understand the problem here. People already feel as though they were "burned" for $50 bucks once, why should they touch the same hot stove twice? If you pay money for a product, and it's deemed inferior/dis-satisfactory to you, the customer has every right to openly vent their frustrations.
Point 3) I can't deny that there are some blind haters here. But they're easy to spot. Anyone who blames SOE for Sigil's mistakes are almost always called out for it immediately. But this is a double-edged sword. There are blind fanboy's too, and they'd have you believe this game was a bug-free, lag-free, diamond in the rough.
Point 4) The developers came here briefly. However, MMORPG has always had a harsh, demanding community. People didn't want to hear any more promises, or apologies for what went wrong, etc etc. People demanded results. When the results weren't enough, they left. How does that old quote go... "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" or something along those lines, right? That's my take on what happened. Sigil and co. realized there words were falling on deaf ears, so they packed up and left. Can you really blame people for not wanting to hear about what is coming, what should have been done, what they hope to achieve? How about what is done, what is already there, and what's been achieved?
Also, I clarified my statement regarding low post counts and viral marketing. It's unfortunate you wish to deliberately misconstrue my statement to try and make a point.
After rereading some of your post I think I did take the labeling supporters viral marketers out of context and for that my apologies I mis read one of your post and you did in fact specify low post counts. Its was someone else that was generalizing viral marketers, my mistake and I will happily admit when I wrong. More than anything the negative attitude has frustrated me and I may have taken out my disdain for these changes on you and this was my mistake, again I will man up when I was wrong.
As far as the take that the forums here in general haven't all taken on a negative tone, I would still disagree. Things seem pretty bad through the general threads as well as the game specific ones throughout these forums and on this I guess we have to agree to disagree. I occasionally see someone called out for blind hate but just as often others use those post to further take cheap shots and continue the trend, I would hardly say they are mostly called out, I simply don't see that. The blind fanboy's for any game are a problem and I would agree those that paint this picture of the perfect game are doing more damage than good for the game. I don't understand the blind fanboys anymore than the haters but each game has them.
On the devs leaving I think they saw the environment as unreachable no matter what they did, and due to the toxic nature of many of the threads, those of us that might have something inciteful to say often hold back because of the backlash from the types of people I mentioned before. It comes back to how much valuable info can you collect versus time wasted wading through the garbage post and whether it is truly worth it, obviously it wasn't.
As far as not touching the game again because it wasn't what they wanted from the get go, well it is an mmo. I'm not saying everyone should return in droves but if you have spent the 50 dollars and you know mmo's are works in progress a return after hearing from credible people that many things broken/missing are being added and fixed doesn't seem to be out of the question. I played SWG at launch and eventually took a break out of frustration, i however didn't let that stop me from giving it a second chance once things improved in my mind. In the same way I don't think everyone who had a bad experience in the beginning should completely write off Vanguard as beyond repair, through my eyes that simply isn't the case, again opinion. Does it excuse the developers for releasing early? not at all, neither should it doom the game no matter what changes take place.
As far as nothing better to say I call things like I see them, if you don't agree with me thats ok but at least you took the time to respond in a mature manner. I was probably overly critical of you but this site has gone from the main place I enjoy posting and exchanging ideas to a site I visit on occasion but hardly post and to be honest it frustrates me. Probably won't make much difference but I hope you can see the shift in attitude on this site and how it might frustrate some of us that enjoy a debate of ideas rather than an immature battle of the e peen that this sites threads have taken on.
Regards,
Trey