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When Vanguard Imploded it Killed Hardcore Gaming too
danbala
Member Posts: 181
Wisdom too often never comes, and so one ought not to reject it merely because it comes late. With that in mind, let's face it: Vanguard marks the end of EQ style gaming.
This isn't about fairness, this is about reality. Although I happen to like many of the ideas in the game, I still recognize that Vanguard is a stillborn mess that could be the most public and epic failure of a AAA title in quite some time. It is the Waterworld of gaming. It's the kind of failure that resonates throughout an industry.
Worse yet, it is a failure that has happened right next door to the resounding success of Lord of the Rings Online. LotRo has been a wild overnight hit that has made a somewhat obscure gaming company, Turbine, into a developer in the same league with Blizzard. It is even on track to become of the most successful MMO games of all time. It may even end up one of the most successful PC games of all time.
I liked Vanguard before it died. But that really doesn't make make much of a difference. What is the lesson the industry is likely to draw from this? Fairly or not, Vanguard has been pegged as the "hardcore" game. A "harsh" death penalty, long travel, massive grinds and no instancing were supposed to be its selling points. Those points simply did not sell but instead flopped with a industry-wide thud. And then its company imploded and its lead designer started talking about how much he wanted to cry.
A car accident at the circus. Who couldn't stop and gawk?
Some people might argue that the failure was not due to the feature set but instead due to the performance issues. They may be right. (Performance issue are ultimately what drove me away). But ultimately it won't matter. These features and concepts are now tainted because no investor knows for sure what made the game so unattractive to consumers and no investor will want to take the chance that they repeat Vanguard's failure.
In direct contrast, LotRo's massive success rides on features like easy travel, immediate accessibility, swift leveling, clever use of instancing and practically no death penalty. Where do you honestly think the smart money will be played? Where would you place your bets?
As far as the future of Vanguard - it is not with the hardcore. Smed might give us lip service to keep us around, but we are no longer a demographically significant part of the marketplace. Over the past three years Sony has been forced to the sidelines while companies like Blizzard and Turbine raced right past them. At one point SOE was the 800 gorilla in MMOs. Now they are a marginal player fighting for the scraps at the table of the big two. Do you think that Sony is happy with that state of affairs?
The Sony corporation is still reeling for some seriously wrong-headed corporate decisions (PS3, HD format wars, PSP) and is hemorrhaging money. I'm fairly certain that they can not afford to have SOE sitting around catering to a fringe part of the market place. They need SOE to reassume its place as market leader - especially now that online gaming has become such a significant revue stream. Blizzard is now floating Vivendi's entertainment division. You can bet that Sony Entertainment is salivating for a piece of that action. You can also bet that whatever changes SOE makes to Vanguard it will be with an eye toward drawing it that gigantic contingent of players that SOE is not currently reaching with its EQ properties and derivative works.
I'm afraid the days of the hardcore have ended with Vanguard.
Comments
Well, it just goes to show that there are not enough masochists that play MMOs to make the necessary profit for a "hardcore" game.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Sadly, the days of wild hyperbolic statements has not yet ended.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Too many tough words?
Too many tough words?
No, just wildly inaccurate.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Too many tough words?
More likely that you think Turbine is a "somewhat obscure gaming company." That statement doesn't make you sound particularly well informed.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Large companies are going towards the mass-market approach, ala Blizzard's methodology. Yet, by so doing, this allows for other companies to go where the 900lbs gorillas do not.
The MMO market is still young and the Golden Age has yet to arrive.
As for Turbine once being an obscured company, in a certain point of view (as by Danbala) that is correct.
In the general public, Turbine was obscured. To the gamer community, Turbine was a known company.
An example:
Ask a person who doesn't play computer games to find out if he/she knows of or has heard of Worlds of Warcraft. If so, then ask that same person if he/she knows Asheron's Call.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Theres just too many new people to this genre atm, but in time I think they will want some more hardcoreish games as well. We veterans are the minority. Around year 2000 there was like around 100 000's of mmo players. Now theres well over 10 million and yes I'm pulling these numbers out of my arse, but if you do a quick count of subscribers of the games that was back then and that are now thats where the numbers fall.
and by hardcore I do not mean GRINDING repeating something is in no way hardcore it's a timesink.
Once the flood of new players will start to slow down I think we will be seeing more quality and longer lasting games.
Right now what motivates the companies is to sell as many boxes as possible with least effort.
Generally I agree with the OP, a certain concept of early EQ1-style gaming died with the fall of VG. I am not entirely sure if he bemoans or applauds that result. I for myself am glad about this. I am aware it is difficult to critizise a game some people love; its a bit like a teacher telling parents their child is dumb. They will deny it, of couse, since they love their child, but with ignorance comes the danger it wont evolve.
For me, and I think for the vast majority of players MMOs are a form of escapism, its a hobby I do for leisure. I dont want to get things for free, but above a certain level a game just makes me grind my teeth too much, and VG surely was like that. Many a day I went out of a gaming eveing with less money and less XP than I had entered, and thats just where I soon start to loose interest. Maybe some people enjoy that, thats fine, but the days when those teeth-grinding games were the majority are over indeed. It may be that once and then some niche games with some old fashioned features will surface, but VG will definitely be the last time someone tries to built an AAA title on a hardcore approach. And no matter how many verbal smoke bombs Brad tossed, calling it "core", the truth is VG just IS hardcore compare to everything that was released in the last few years. Sure, it is not as hardcore as early EQ1 by far, but how many people REALLY compare their game experience to those days?
I played a lot of MMOs and talked to a lot of people, being in some really big, well organized guilds, and the common sense for the last years was that corpse run was the past, just as horse carriage is compared to cars. Its something you do as fancy sometimes, but not for everyday buisiness. It wasnt that terrible or difficult, it was just boring and tedious to have to re-grind all the money and XP loss, and very often - especially in dungeon runs - one corpse run lead to another, so you had a series of CR and in the end some times you spent more time compensating your deaths than actually progressing through the game. VG isnt 3rd gen, its 1.5 gen.
And the real nail on the coffin are games like LOTRO, WAR or PoBS. Why? Well, because of the real thoughful ways they deal with the grind. I will cite Warhammer as example, partially because I wont play it because its just not my thing, so no one can call me biased, and also because the idea is so good.
One of the gripes of MMO gaming is collecing things, like boar stomachs or bear paws. You all know the system: go to a NPC, kill bears until you have 20 paws and return. in WAR, when you come to a NPC, he will just have a quest for 20 bears, and the game has a record of everything you did. So if you, at some time, already killed 20 bears, you just get the reward outright. I think thats a really clever way to take out the absurd "find 40 hawk livers" nonsense. LOTRO has its own approach, with the titles and traits system, which also lessens the grind-feeling in the always necessary grind MMOs will have. Compare to such thoughtful ideas VG looks just extremely cumbersome and old fashioned, like the dinosaur it is in many ways. (Not in all, but in a lot of ways.)
The reality is, most people want to go into the game and the fun must start right off. They want small feel-good rewards after one evening, and not invest weeks and weeks into a game before they even see a new pair of gloves. Again, its not a matter of items for free, its the feeling to have small rewards even for a small effort, something nice and cool here and there. VG is rather devoid of such, and has in that way made a lot of mistakes again, which EQ2 had at start. Meager rewards, terrible loot, forced grouping, cumbersome quest design. Its all there again, but unlike in the time when EQ2 was new, the MMO world didnt halt but move on and now people are much less generous to those age old problems as they were 3 years ago. Things like mobs which follow you all over the world, of how fast simple mistakes of one group member lead to wipe, how generally unforgiving VG is to any slight mistake in choices or mis-clicking or waiting a wee bit too long with spell X. In EQ2 now, in WOW, in LOTRO and in most other modern MMOs, there is always a chance, a chance to turn the tide if someone made a small mistake, if accidentally another add came, or to simple run away and come back another time. In VG you dont get a chance. Mistake leads to death, almost always.
One of the Blizzard devs when asked what the secret of the success was, he said "we looked at every feature, and if it wasnt fun, it was out." Thats quite a mercyless measure for VG, since there are plenty of things, which are neat to design and sound cool as idea, but as a everyday game reality are simply not fun.
EDIT: Jumping at someone because he called Turbine obsuce just shows you have no other arguments. I dont think Turbine is obscure, but what he likely meant was, Turbine wasnt actually known for big successes recently. Focus on the arguments and not small words with a biting reflex like a mad dog.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It's not so much that Vanguard imploded and killed harcore gaming, its that hardcore gaming imploded due to the nature of the beast. It consumed so many unwarranted hours of tedious and monotonous game play(OK game play is not what I should say because grinding trees for a bazillion hours does not a game make) that it acted like a star going super nova and turned into this black hole of grind that devoured anything and everything that was meant to be fun in a game - a game - not work - a game. We didn't know any better with games like EQ and AC, they were all we had really in the way of 3D MMORPG worlds at the time. We players had no choice but to accept what was given and think...wow...this is fun. Couple of years later we're like - WTF! I wasted 2 years of my life whacking virtual moles and thought it was fun!
We fooled ourselves into believing it was fun and hardcore. LOL! Hardcore...such a stupid word to use to describe a game and it's monotonous, tedious, repetetive boring arse poorly designed and implemented game play! What we need is not hardcore...what we need is complex and challenging game play! That's what we need. Not this stupid ride for 40 minutes, wack 100 of the same MOB or chop down thousands of virtual trees in search of that ultra rare kind of lumber. NO! That is just lazy and unimaginative game design..there is nothing hardcore other then sitting on your ass for 6hrs at a stretch trying to acomplish one simple little task to get a bow made! A stupid bow! Do I feel rewarded for what I did for night after night after boring ass night trying to find the wood necessary to have the bow made?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In fact I feel cheated. I feel as though the developer is sitting back and laughing his stupid ass off because some dumb gamer is willing to put up with his BS to keep said gamer subscribed and playing their game. Well Mr. Developer you go right on thinking that and we'll see more and more of your pathetic attempts at making a game fall into the abyss of poorly made games.
So drop this "hardcore' and give us a well designed and thought out games that challenges us not only in game play, but with the complexity of what choices we're given to determine the fate of our characters by how we develop them and play them. I've seen so many good games or potentially good games created only to see them become boring, monotonous, tedious unfun games because some developer or level designer said, "hmmm...lets see, I'll have them talk to this NPC here in city X. The NPC will tell them to travel all the way across the world to find 120 small flowers that only bloom at night and only on these days. Days derived from this algorithmic formula to spawn them at the right moment and only on these days at this time." If that is challenging and fun to you - knock yourself out.
I'll take my chances on a fun, yet challenging, and complex game rather then a boring ass, poorly implemented, POS that is not even worthy of the title - a game.
I agree Vangaurd ruined gamming for alot of people. Many of my freinds have gone back to the real world, oh my. But seriously AoE hopfully will make us all forget about Vanguards wasting of our time and money.
Long posts does not equal either complexity nor correctness. There are lots of errors in your statements, and your topic is not the least of them.
Vanguard prove one thing and one thing only. I thought Shadowbane made it clear in its time, but I guess some have to hear it twice. Aiming at a niche market does not mean you can make a product of subpar quality and still succeed. Few trekkies buy the Enterprise made in clay for 500 dollars, thousands of people want Darth Vaders orignal helmet, but very few want his jockstrap made out of used Cleenex... And not too mane hardcore gamers in Vanguards case, or allout PvPers in Shadowbanes case, want a rushed out, subpar quality, halfmade game to play. IF developers and game companies took their responsibility to crate a product that is EXACTLY what is promised and not always trust the playersbaes and their will to forgive everything, then I am sure both a hardcore game and a full PvP game could be extremly succesful.
But as long as they not only fall short of the expectations, but even miss the quality standard of the last 5+ years, then they cant expect anything but a failure.
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Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
The day the industry realizes that its not the minority hardcore players, but the majority casual player that supports its games then maybe we'll start seeing more great games like LotRo.
Raven
For what it's worth, the old school, pre-Velious EQ style of hardcore gameplay died once and for all back in 2004, when World of Warcraft launched. Both Sigil and Brad McQuaid just chose to ignore the writing on the wall.
Blizzard created the logical end of the original EQ design. They took a well known and popular fantasy world, made it easy to learn the game and to level, and then ramped up the difficulty in the end game for those people who are just masochistic enough to endure doing things like faction grinds and endless raiding in order to get the top gear in the game. They also did things like make it much easier to get around and easier for players to meet up at dungeons, so people wouldn't have to waste time running around in order to get a group together and have fun with their friends.
When WoW launched and started flying off the shelves, the old EQ style game was effectively dead. The best thing for developers to do now, instead of trying to compete with Blizzard head on, is to try and offer something new and different instead of treading the same ground. They need to come up with something unique instead of just more of the same.
Too many tough words?
More likely that you think Turbine is a "somewhat obscure gaming company." That statement doesn't make you sound particularly well informed.
Compare Turbine's pre-LotRo bottom line to Blizzards and then get back to me about who is ill informed. Turbine was struggling along on the last fumes of its AC money before DDO. In the greater world of video games and entertainment it was a very small company.
Hardcore games aren't dead due to VG. You just need to make the game complete for $3 mill instead of thirty. Plenty of folks around to support that budget and the appropriate grind fest. Don't give up hope!
Too many tough words?
More likely that you think Turbine is a "somewhat obscure gaming company." That statement doesn't make you sound particularly well informed.
Compare Turbine's pre-LotRo bottom line to Blizzards and then get back to me about who is ill informed. Turbine was struggling along on the last fumes of its AC money before DDO. In the greater world of video games and entertainment it was a very small company.Turbine is and was much larger in games than Sigil ever was.
I disagree. While it would be nice if they did that, I think LotRo shows that they can do just great by copying WoW and adapting it to new settings and IPs.
PS: When you consider all the "borrowing" that Blizzard did from Command and Conquer, Dune and the Warhammer Fantasy Battles Miniature Game when they came out with their first big success its really only fair to borrow from them in return, eh?
I never claimed that Sigil wasn't obscure.
Vanguards demise has little to do with it's hardcore nature or its challenge, and if developers or publishers would draw that conclusion then those developers/publishers are basically idiots. Vanguard tanked because it was unfinished, because the world was unfinished, the graphics lacklustre, even compared to EQ2, the engine underperforming, the world being lacklustre and devoid of soul or life.
On hindsight, Vanguard needed one more year of polish, and everyone who thinks WoW/LOTRO is to easy would have flocked to it. It also needed a different world design philosophy, they should not have tried to launch so early with a world so huge and a lfg system so broke.
Anyhow, I love games with challenge, but if they are broke as vanguard is, im not playing them.
Let me be clear i only am happy that the "hardcore" ended that i keep reading on sites like this what hardcore is about. Lucky that Vanguard doesn't catter them well and hopefully they jump into a hardcore game that let those type of people waist their time with their so-called hardcore.
For me hardcore in mmorpg is one that truly playes all aspect of the game, helping others, knowing things the casuals might not know, sharing, basicly living the life of hte character. Also my type of hardcore just is involved into mmorpg its not a 24/7 players just someone that whenever he/she is ingame he or she is living that game if this is for 1 hour a day so be it is it 4/5 hours aday so be it. The hardcore i see on sites like this seem to be lunatics with no life and only eyes for loot/gear and end game or raids. Sorry if this is what ended i will say again YES its about time these type of hardcore's left mmorpg.
LOTR also has the advantage of being the big kahuna IP for a fantasy setting game, and Turbine actually did the game right, so it's doing well. The game is a perfect example of looking at what has worked in the market these past few years, and properly adapting that to a massively popular IP.
People can borrow all they like, but that's no guarantee a game will do well. When Blizzard's game has 8+ million people playing it, every other fantasy game after it is going to be compared to it side by side, and if it's found lacking, as Vanguard was, then it will fall hard and fast.
The best thing for developers now is to try something new. The high fantasy genre's been done to death already, and with WoW, and now with LOTR making inroads, that ship has long since sailed. Maybe some of the new sci-fi type games on the horizon (i.e., Tabula Rasa, Huxley, Star Trek, Stargate) will offer something different for players. Or maybe the mythology base of Gods & Heroes will bring new tricks to the genre. One can only hope.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn