Well it seems to me the game will have less people that can't read playing it making it a better place for those who can SOE are marketing it they do not own the game they will not be bring out the patch's they will not be buying out FLS as the people that run FLS have good business sense.
if you are going to rate a game by the people that market it then you are missing out of some great games.
the simplest of answers is to go to the PoTBS forum and see what the true story is and not just listen to people that think they have a clue
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Dont really care who u work for, u guys lost ur creditbility long time ago when that guy Brad MaQuaid set a perfect example of been a scumbag lying sob.
We lost our credibility for something someone, who none has us have met, at a completely different game company, did to a completely different game?
One of the principle participants in that fiasco is your new publishing partner. Of course you have nothing to do with Vanguard, but you have to understand that people have heard all this SOE cant touch the code, SOE is just the distributor, all this is guaranteed in our contract, everything is fine here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... You may have nothing to do with Sigil and BMQ, but you are climbing in to bed with the slimy, disreputable, unscrupulous ass-hats that everyone hates Brad for lying about getting in bed with himself. If he ruined some people's ability to trust a developer when they claim complete autonomy from Sony.... that's a bummer for you, but also perfectly understandable to me. You want people to trust you, but for that to happen they kinda also have to trust Sony... and that bridge has already been burden for a lot of people.
I know that the majority of people on the planet don't care in the least about SOE... the problem is that your game isn't targeted at a majority of the people on the planet.... It is targeted at MMO players, and the percentage of MMO players who care whether or not SOE gets a pic e of their monthly fees might just be larger than you expected. SOE has pissed off a lot of people with their heavy-handed, "we are always right, and the customer is always stupid" attitude. Knowing this as you must, and getting in to bed with them anyway is seen by some people as a slap in the face... a lack of respect for your own potential customers. Furthermore, pretending SOE is the only option to get your product on the shelves is an insult to our intelligence. I understand that not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people do. I also understand that you guys must believe this deal gains you more potential customers than it costs you, I just think the same positives you are looking for could have been achieved with a different publisher... without you having to sell your souls to the MMO equivalent of Satan himself.
Look at Vanguard's first announcement below. It looks the same. The future of PoTBS will be the same as Vanguard. It is sad that PC gaming is having so many failures. We will all be playing on the XBox and PS3 only soon.
VANGUARD: SAGA OF HEROES FINDS A NEW HOME
Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment In Talks To Co-Publish Sigil’s Ground-Breaking New Game
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. These efforts have resulted in a tentative agreement for Vanguard to be co-published by both Sigil Games Online and SOE. All three companies will be showing the game at the upcoming Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) as they work closely together for a successful transition. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is scheduled to launch this winter. “As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title’s development,” said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. “In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.” As co-publisher of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil assumes greater control of marketing and PR, while maintaining responsibility for game development, community relations, media relations, customer support, and quality assurance. Under the terms of the agreement, SOE will provide distribution, marketing, hosting and back-end support -- including billing and technical support -- for the game. Additionally, SOE is tentatively planning on adding Vanguard, upon its release, to SOE’s Station Access™ subscription plan. Station Access allows players to enjoy all of SOE’s MMO titles for one low monthly price. “We are very excited to be working with so many old friends at Sigil,” said John Smedley, president, Sony Online Entertainment. “Vanguard looks beautiful and has an incredibly rich game world. It’s the type of game that will appeal directly to SOE’s hundreds of thousands of players and should fit in perfectly with the current line-up of games available in Station Access.” ”This decision was made mutually by Sigil and Microsoft, in the best interest of the long-term goals for the title,” said Phil Spencer, General Manager at Microsoft Game Studios. “As a key Windows development partner, we will continue to work with Sigil to ensure Vanguard’s ongoing success.” Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the next generation of massively multiplayer online games. The journey takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is currently in a closed beta phase. The game will remain available via Fileplanet for existing beta testers during the transition to SOE. New information will be sent out to testers as the changeover occurs. For more information about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes please visit www.vanguardsoh.com.
Yes but the deal is different because Sigil was having money troubleand owned money to SOE for buying the IP back off Microsoft. Also the agreement is different as:
1) Sony doesn't dohosting and back-end support -- including technical support -- for the game
2)FLS isn't doing control of marketing and PR and media relations. Like sigil was.
3) Again FLS DOES NOT OWE SOE MONEY.
Hope you bad SOE haters get the picture now.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner Guild:St George Squadron
Dont really care who u work for, u guys lost ur creditbility long time ago when that guy Brad MaQuaid set a perfect example of been a scumbag lying sob.
We lost our credibility for something someone, who none has us have met, at a completely different game company, did to a completely different game?
One of the principle participants in that fiasco is your new publishing partner. Of course you have nothing to do with Vanguard, but you have to understand that people have heard all this SOE cant touch the code, SOE is just the distributor, all this is guaranteed in our contract, everything is fine here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... You may have nothing to do with Sigil and BMQ, but you are climbing in to bed with the slimy, disreputable, unscrupulous ass-hats that everyone hates Brad for lying about getting in bed with himself. If he ruined some people's ability to trust a developer when they claim complete autonomy from Sony.... that's a bummer for you, but also perfectly understandable to me. You want people to trust you, but for that to happen they kinda also have to trust Sony... and that bridge has already been burden for a lot of people.
I know that the majority of people on the planet don't care in the least about SOE... the problem is that your game isn't targeted at a majority of the people on the planet.... It is targeted at MMO players, and the percentage of MMO players who care whether or not SOE gets a pic e of their monthly fees might just be larger than you expected. SOE has pissed off a lot of people with their heavy-handed, "we are always right, and the customer is always stupid" attitude. Knowing this as you must, and getting in to bed with them anyway is seen by some people as a slap in the face... a lack of respect for your own potential customers. Furthermore, pretending SOE is the only option to get your product on the shelves is an insult to our intelligence. I understand that not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people do. I also understand that you guys must believe this deal gains you more potential customers than it costs you, I just think the same positives you are looking for could have been achieved with a different publisher... without you having to sell your souls to the MMO equivalent of Satan himself.
what some of you don't seem to understand is that SOE is the only one that agreed to a deal the let them keep their IP and that's why they signed, other companies wouldn't do that, so why would these guys who busted their asses off developing this game just wanna give it away? bottom line is that SOE agreed to the deal they wanted and other companies wouldn't go for it.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
they already made the deal, its moot at this point, but still good discussion. I believe in giving people chances, the FLS guys have answered everyone's concerns no other company has come here and done that, least not that i have seen, anyways i'll trust them till they give me reason to not trust them.
For now i choose to play a game that looks to be awesome, and i hope it is.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
I think this thread has really gone about as far as it can go.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Do you really believe that? Have you not seen all the forum sites scattered across the net filled with SOE hate? Do you think the level of emotion that has been displayed the past few days is because people are kidding? It is derived from a level of broken trust that is comparable to being stabbed in the back by your friend. You have become guilty by association. You stamped SOE on your product and acquired a boatload of baggage. Mainly, you and your company are no longer trustworthy. An interesting analogy I read previously was something like "If Michael Jackson suddenly had something to do with the daycare you take your kid to, would you still take them there?" GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
I really hate to sound like an asshat here, but, this isn't our world on the line. There is a company out there that has invested a substanial amount of time and money creating it. It's their world, and when they say it's time, we get to play in it. To question their decision to delay release is in my opinion....selfish. To question anything pertaining to the game as a matter of fact I find selfish. I'm sure there are families whose quality of life will be affected by how well this game goes over in the gaming community. We in the gaming community are merciless, a bad release can be catastrophic to a game. Anyone who questions the delay of release....relax. Don't you think that the devs want to release it as much as you want to play it? More so I'll bet. When it's ready, I'm sure you'll hear about it. Until then put forth a little effort to contribute instead of criticize. Additionally, I know the supporters heavily outweigh the belly achers here, this is directed at the select few that are crying about this and that.
Mr. Saada, thank you for your responses in this thread. There arn't too many companies that put forth the effort I've seen from you to accomodate the posters here. The game is looking great and I can't wait to give you guys some money. Pat the crew on the back, tell them to keep up the good work and I'll see ya on the open seas.
Sigh, I highlighted the things in yellow that stand out most in my mind.......that I wrote.....about your game. Read it again. Now, what type of person writes something like that in a public forum? A staunch supporter, is who. I could take just about anything from a company, hell I pretty much have. Anyone whose been playing MMOs for longer than a year or two can relate one way or another. Anything....but SOE. ANYTHING! I will not do SOE again.....they will not see any more of my money...in any way shape or form. You can take your game and your company and stick them both up SOEs keester. Press release a couple of days ago read "We did it!!" Yep, you sure did. Sadly, I will wait for another MMORPG to come along. I know...don't let the door hit ya too hard....buh bye....all the good ones....unfortunatly for FLS I am far from alone.
I won't bother line for line, my time is much too valuable and you are obviously just like the rest. Investing too much time in the response would obviously just feed your obsession with green text and it is something my willpower won't and can't allow. Beacuse I can seperate truth from folly in a single click of the post message button.
So I'll make it short and sweet.
I'm not a conservative, I'm a realist. Nor would I ignore the meat and reason in a post and go straight for the flame bait. Your point here, as far as I'm concerned, is not to debate the merits of any contractual agreements. Otherwise you would have.
Rampant whining, complaining, and half truths have no place in logical assesements. Thats what I compare these cats to, no more, no less. If you want to lump yourself in the same cess pool, go right ahead.
I'm glad you have made your position on immigration reform known to your representative, rather I would be. But you see, the majority of Americans don't. So I can hardly beleive that you would. Yea, thats that reverse psycology, looking in the mirror bit. Did I get it right?
Hate, not complainers. Hate is a seperate emotion from dissatisfaction. It can be likened to an adrenaline rush, this unbiased hate. It should be checked at every opportunity.
all this shows is a huge lack of caring or consideration for followers of your game and product. I for one boycott this game and any further made by you sellouts.=SOE
Wow. I don't think I've ever wanted to say this to a potential fan/customer on a public message board before, but now I do:
Buh-bye. I'd like to say I'll miss having you try my game, but... after that post, I won't. I'm glad you won't be playing.
trust me i wont, i dont plan on playing games that you do not have even the basic principles of marketing down apt to distribute your product. and when you sell out to SOE even more so. don't worry I won't even bother to look at your product, in fact Ill do my best to hide the boxes when I make it to the store =D!
i dont think i even want to try this any more now what's with the game companys these days there all signing up with soe
Have you read whats on the Flying Labs site? Seriously, why cry over the fact that FL got excactly what they were looking for in a publisher ......
Look at Vanguard's first announcement below. It looks the same. The future of PoTBS will be the same as Vanguard. It is sad that PC gaming is having so many failures. We will all be playing on the XBox and PS3 only soon.
VANGUARD: SAGA OF HEROES FINDS A NEW HOME
Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment In Talks To Co-Publish Sigil’s Ground-Breaking New Game
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. These efforts have resulted in a tentative agreement for Vanguard to be co-published by both Sigil Games Online and SOE. All three companies will be showing the game at the upcoming Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) as they work closely together for a successful transition. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is scheduled to launch this winter.
“As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title’s development,” said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. “In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.”
As co-publisher of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil assumes greater control of marketing and PR, while maintaining responsibility for game development, community relations, media relations, customer support, and quality assurance. Under the terms of the agreement, SOE will provide distribution, marketing, hosting and back-end support -- including billing and technical support -- for the game. Additionally, SOE is tentatively planning on adding Vanguard, upon its release, to SOE’s Station Access™ subscription plan. Station Access allows players to enjoy all of SOE’s MMO titles for one low monthly price.
“We are very excited to be working with so many old friends at Sigil,” said John Smedley, president, Sony Online Entertainment. “Vanguard looks beautiful and has an incredibly rich game world. It’s the type of game that will appeal directly to SOE’s hundreds of thousands of players and should fit in perfectly with the current line-up of games available in Station Access.”
”This decision was made mutually by Sigil and Microsoft, in the best interest of the long-term goals for the title,” said Phil Spencer, General Manager at Microsoft Game Studios. “As a key Windows development partner, we will continue to work with Sigil to ensure Vanguard’s ongoing success.”
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the next generation of massively multiplayer online games. The journey takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is currently in a closed beta phase. The game will remain available via Fileplanet for existing beta testers during the transition to SOE. New information will be sent out to testers as the changeover occurs.
For more information about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes please visit www.vanguardsoh.com.
haha thank you for bringing that back up, becuase it is the EXACT same scenario. The onyl difference is we have never heard of FLS, or atleast I have not. or of rick or w/e.
Now sigil was hevily funded and had some rich peopel behind it, people who carry weight or used to, in the MMO world:
Brad McQuaid, Keith Parkinson, Jeff BUtler among the ubers that were there.. and they had to sell out to SOE..but this independent company supposedly has enough money rofl..yea right.
all this shows is a huge lack of caring or consideration for followers of your game and product. I for one boycott this game and any further made by you sellouts.=SOE
Wow. I don't think I've ever wanted to say this to a potential fan/customer on a public message board before, but now I do:
Buh-bye. I'd like to say I'll miss having you try my game, but... after that post, I won't. I'm glad you won't be playing.
The sad thing is that I believe he will be here posting his "I told you so" post and dancing on your game's casket 6 months after it launches... and it won't really be Sony's fault. The market just isn't friendly to mediocre, low-budget titles. It's a bummer, but it's true. One thing's for sure, your CS skills are consistent with what I would expect from your newfound publishing partner. You guys should get along just fine. As for this guy, maybe you should tell him to speak with his feet.... like all those former SWG players did.
very good post and agree fully b/c it will happen. lol You are a smart man =D what game you playing currently bor?
you know what, if POTBS didnt screw itself over by signing up with SOE, they would not have to come to these forums and try to deal with this PR disaster that they created in order to save a few subs.
Originally posted by Napocalypse you know what, if POTBS didnt screw itself over by signing up with SOE, they would not have to come to these forums and try to deal with this PR disaster that they created in order to save a few subs.
You do know they posted here BEFORE the SOE announcment right?
FLS has always posted on the mmorpg.com forums. They have been incredibly down to earth, honest, and friendly to the community for years now.
The quoted press release concerning vanguard above was not a lie. Sigil maintained the development of VG at that time, it wasnt until a later, separate contract, that VG was sold to SoE. Sigil made a poor game and people were canceling their subscriptions to VG; sigil made a business choice to sell to SoE after release.
Nap, isildur is right to write off you and other trolls who come here to post false information and start up flame wars.
But why SOE? Why not the NCSoft? Those guys kick ass...
We've talked to every major publisher in the market at one point or another. The deal we got from Sony was head and shoulders above what we were offered by anyone else. The fact of the matter is that we're an anomoly in the market. There aren't very many independant MMO companies out there. Mythic? Owned by EA. Blizzard? Owned by Vivendi. etc. And of those that aren't owned by a big player, most are backed by one and beholden to them. We did things differently. We started very small and self financed the project. We're not carrying the boatload of debt that sank Vanguard. But that also means that we don't fit into the normal 3rd party/publisher relationship, where the publisher puts in lots of up front money and takes most of the backend in return. The hard part for us was finding a publisher that understood that. Finding one that realized if you aren't paying for the development, you don't get to claim the IP. Rusty, in doing our negotiations, stood his ground on this and many other issues, which meant that many of the talks we had with other publishers went nowhere.
Sony is actually doing something different with their platform publishing initiative. I believe Perpetual (Gods and Heroes) is the only other MMO involved so far, but the idea is that Sony is doing the part they do well (marketing and distribution) and leaving the independant companies to do the game. They put in less money up front, and take less in return. But what this does for us is give us access to the kind of distribution clout most small companies can't get without selling their souls, at the price of a very reasonable slice of the backend. We're taking most of the risk, and so we get most of the reward. And we get to keep our IP and our soul.
I hope that even those who have had bad experiences with Sony in the past will at least reserve judgement until the game is shipped, and decide then if it's worth playing. And I bid a sad farewell to those whose hatred is so strong they'll forgo a game they would have enjoyed.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Thanks for explaning that Rick, these guys need it laid out in very very simple terms.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner Guild:St George Squadron
Another game that falls from my list. Bye, Bye PotBS.
You my friend deserve to be flamed any way possible on the basis of paranoia and ignorance
You my friend deserve to be screwed over by every shady corporation in the world for not learning from other's mistakes.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
M240gulf, But in the end your hurting the little guy (FLS) as well. So what have you achieved?
FLS knew the risks and bad press they'd get for making their bed with $OE. If not, they really need to read a forum or two.
I'd have rather they had AlJazeera publish the freaking game.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
i dont think i even want to try this any more now what's with the game companys these days there all signing up with soe
Have you read whats on the Flying Labs site? Seriously, why cry over the fact that FL got excactly what they were looking for in a publisher ......
Look at Vanguard's first announcement below. It looks the same. The future of PoTBS will be the same as Vanguard. It is sad that PC gaming is having so many failures. We will all be playing on the XBox and PS3 only soon.
VANGUARD: SAGA OF HEROES FINDS A NEW HOME
Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment In Talks To Co-Publish Sigil’s Ground-Breaking New Game
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. These efforts have resulted in a tentative agreement for Vanguard to be co-published by both Sigil Games Online and SOE. All three companies will be showing the game at the upcoming Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) as they work closely together for a successful transition. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is scheduled to launch this winter.
“As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title’s development,” said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. “In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.”
As co-publisher of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil assumes greater control of marketing and PR, while maintaining responsibility for game development, community relations, media relations, customer support, and quality assurance. Under the terms of the agreement, SOE will provide distribution, marketing, hosting and back-end support -- including billing and technical support -- for the game. Additionally, SOE is tentatively planning on adding Vanguard, upon its release, to SOE’s Station Access™ subscription plan. Station Access allows players to enjoy all of SOE’s MMO titles for one low monthly price.
“We are very excited to be working with so many old friends at Sigil,” said John Smedley, president, Sony Online Entertainment. “Vanguard looks beautiful and has an incredibly rich game world. It’s the type of game that will appeal directly to SOE’s hundreds of thousands of players and should fit in perfectly with the current line-up of games available in Station Access.”
”This decision was made mutually by Sigil and Microsoft, in the best interest of the long-term goals for the title,” said Phil Spencer, General Manager at Microsoft Game Studios. “As a key Windows development partner, we will continue to work with Sigil to ensure Vanguard’s ongoing success.”
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the next generation of massively multiplayer online games. The journey takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is currently in a closed beta phase. The game will remain available via Fileplanet for existing beta testers during the transition to SOE. New information will be sent out to testers as the changeover occurs.
For more information about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes please visit www.vanguardsoh.com.
haha thank you for bringing that back up, becuase it is the EXACT same scenario. The onyl difference is we have never heard of FLS, or atleast I have not. or of rick or w/e.
Now sigil was hevily funded and had some rich peopel behind it, people who carry weight or used to, in the MMO world:
Brad McQuaid, Keith Parkinson, Jeff BUtler among the ubers that were there.. and they had to sell out to SOE..but this independent company supposedly has enough money rofl..yea right.
You are actually bringing up the key issue yourself there...
FLS don't actually need as many subscribers that Sigil would have needed to stay up floating. That according to those statements that you bluntly doesn't care to read.
Comments
[edit]Nothing to see here besides a guy who can't read, please move along
Well it seems to me the game will have less people that can't read playing it making it a better place for those who can SOE are marketing it they do not own the game they will not be bring out the patch's they will not be buying out FLS as the people that run FLS have good business sense.
if you are going to rate a game by the people that market it then you are missing out of some great games.
the simplest of answers is to go to the PoTBS forum and see what the true story is and not just listen to people that think they have a clue
Kovah, no problem, and I am removing this post.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
ACK!!!! I mis-read!!!! You said SOE's customer base has decreased...
My fault, sry. Editing post.
We lost our credibility for something someone, who none has us have met, at a completely different game company, did to a completely different game?
One of the principle participants in that fiasco is your new publishing partner. Of course you have nothing to do with Vanguard, but you have to understand that people have heard all this SOE cant touch the code, SOE is just the distributor, all this is guaranteed in our contract, everything is fine here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... You may have nothing to do with Sigil and BMQ, but you are climbing in to bed with the slimy, disreputable, unscrupulous ass-hats that everyone hates Brad for lying about getting in bed with himself. If he ruined some people's ability to trust a developer when they claim complete autonomy from Sony.... that's a bummer for you, but also perfectly understandable to me. You want people to trust you, but for that to happen they kinda also have to trust Sony... and that bridge has already been burden for a lot of people.
I know that the majority of people on the planet don't care in the least about SOE... the problem is that your game isn't targeted at a majority of the people on the planet.... It is targeted at MMO players, and the percentage of MMO players who care whether or not SOE gets a pic e of their monthly fees might just be larger than you expected. SOE has pissed off a lot of people with their heavy-handed, "we are always right, and the customer is always stupid" attitude. Knowing this as you must, and getting in to bed with them anyway is seen by some people as a slap in the face... a lack of respect for your own potential customers. Furthermore, pretending SOE is the only option to get your product on the shelves is an insult to our intelligence. I understand that not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people do. I also understand that you guys must believe this deal gains you more potential customers than it costs you, I just think the same positives you are looking for could have been achieved with a different publisher... without you having to sell your souls to the MMO equivalent of Satan himself.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
Yes but the deal is different because Sigil was having money trouble and owned money to SOE for buying the IP back off Microsoft. Also the agreement is different as:
1) Sony doesn't do hosting and back-end support -- including technical support -- for the game
2)FLS isn't doing control of marketing and PR and media relations. Like sigil was.
3) Again FLS DOES NOT OWE SOE MONEY.
Hope you bad SOE haters get the picture now.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner
Guild:St George Squadron
We lost our credibility for something someone, who none has us have met, at a completely different game company, did to a completely different game?
One of the principle participants in that fiasco is your new publishing partner. Of course you have nothing to do with Vanguard, but you have to understand that people have heard all this SOE cant touch the code, SOE is just the distributor, all this is guaranteed in our contract, everything is fine here, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... You may have nothing to do with Sigil and BMQ, but you are climbing in to bed with the slimy, disreputable, unscrupulous ass-hats that everyone hates Brad for lying about getting in bed with himself. If he ruined some people's ability to trust a developer when they claim complete autonomy from Sony.... that's a bummer for you, but also perfectly understandable to me. You want people to trust you, but for that to happen they kinda also have to trust Sony... and that bridge has already been burden for a lot of people.
I know that the majority of people on the planet don't care in the least about SOE... the problem is that your game isn't targeted at a majority of the people on the planet.... It is targeted at MMO players, and the percentage of MMO players who care whether or not SOE gets a pic e of their monthly fees might just be larger than you expected. SOE has pissed off a lot of people with their heavy-handed, "we are always right, and the customer is always stupid" attitude. Knowing this as you must, and getting in to bed with them anyway is seen by some people as a slap in the face... a lack of respect for your own potential customers. Furthermore, pretending SOE is the only option to get your product on the shelves is an insult to our intelligence. I understand that not everyone feels this way, but a lot of people do. I also understand that you guys must believe this deal gains you more potential customers than it costs you, I just think the same positives you are looking for could have been achieved with a different publisher... without you having to sell your souls to the MMO equivalent of Satan himself.
what some of you don't seem to understand is that SOE is the only one that agreed to a deal the let them keep their IP and that's why they signed, other companies wouldn't do that, so why would these guys who busted their asses off developing this game just wanna give it away? bottom line is that SOE agreed to the deal they wanted and other companies wouldn't go for it.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
they already made the deal, its moot at this point, but still good discussion. I believe in giving people chances, the FLS guys have answered everyone's concerns no other company has come here and done that, least not that i have seen, anyways i'll trust them till they give me reason to not trust them.
For now i choose to play a game that looks to be awesome, and i hope it is.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
I think this thread has really gone about as far as it can go.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Do you really believe that? Have you not seen all the forum sites scattered across the net filled with SOE hate? Do you think the level of emotion that has been displayed the past few days is because people are kidding? It is derived from a level of broken trust that is comparable to being stabbed in the back by your friend. You have become guilty by association. You stamped SOE on your product and acquired a boatload of baggage. Mainly, you and your company are no longer trustworthy. An interesting analogy I read previously was something like "If Michael Jackson suddenly had something to do with the daycare you take your kid to, would you still take them there?" GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
THIS WAS MY POST #20 dated 6/2/2007 in this forum titled "2008 Release"
I really hate to sound like an asshat here, but, this isn't our world on the line. There is a company out there that has invested a substanial amount of time and money creating it. It's their world, and when they say it's time, we get to play in it. To question their decision to delay release is in my opinion....selfish. To question anything pertaining to the game as a matter of fact I find selfish. I'm sure there are families whose quality of life will be affected by how well this game goes over in the gaming community. We in the gaming community are merciless, a bad release can be catastrophic to a game. Anyone who questions the delay of release....relax. Don't you think that the devs want to release it as much as you want to play it? More so I'll bet. When it's ready, I'm sure you'll hear about it. Until then put forth a little effort to contribute instead of criticize. Additionally, I know the supporters heavily outweigh the belly achers here, this is directed at the select few that are crying about this and that.
Mr. Saada, thank you for your responses in this thread. There arn't too many companies that put forth the effort I've seen from you to accomodate the posters here. The game is looking great and I can't wait to give you guys some money. Pat the crew on the back, tell them to keep up the good work and I'll see ya on the open seas.
Sigh, I highlighted the things in yellow that stand out most in my mind.......that I wrote.....about your game. Read it again. Now, what type of person writes something like that in a public forum? A staunch supporter, is who. I could take just about anything from a company, hell I pretty much have. Anyone whose been playing MMOs for longer than a year or two can relate one way or another. Anything....but SOE. ANYTHING! I will not do SOE again.....they will not see any more of my money...in any way shape or form. You can take your game and your company and stick them both up SOEs keester. Press release a couple of days ago read "We did it!!" Yep, you sure did. Sadly, I will wait for another MMORPG to come along. I know...don't let the door hit ya too hard....buh bye....all the good ones....unfortunatly for FLS I am far from alone.
~Regardless, Best of luck to you and your game~
Lol when the game comes out and its a success you will be back.
edit: moved to its own topic
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
So I'll make it short and sweet.
I'm not a conservative, I'm a realist. Nor would I ignore the meat and reason in a post and go straight for the flame bait. Your point here, as far as I'm concerned, is not to debate the merits of any contractual agreements. Otherwise you would have.
Rampant whining, complaining, and half truths have no place in logical assesements. Thats what I compare these cats to, no more, no less. If you want to lump yourself in the same cess pool, go right ahead.
I'm glad you have made your position on immigration reform known to your representative, rather I would be. But you see, the majority of Americans don't. So I can hardly beleive that you would. Yea, thats that reverse psycology, looking in the mirror bit. Did I get it right?
Hate, not complainers. Hate is a seperate emotion from dissatisfaction. It can be likened to an adrenaline rush, this unbiased hate. It should be checked at every opportunity.
The game has been touched by SoE. Enjoy your doom.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
....and here we have another statement often repeated in the Vanguard / SOE debate. I guess once again, time will tell.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
Buh-bye. I'd like to say I'll miss having you try my game, but... after that post, I won't. I'm glad you won't be playing.
trust me i wont, i dont plan on playing games that you do not have even the basic principles of marketing down apt to distribute your product. and when you sell out to SOE even more so. don't worry I won't even bother to look at your product, in fact Ill do my best to hide the boxes when I make it to the store =D!
Have you read whats on the Flying Labs site? Seriously, why cry over the fact that FL got excactly what they were looking for in a publisher ......
Look at Vanguard's first announcement below. It looks the same. The future of PoTBS will be the same as Vanguard. It is sad that PC gaming is having so many failures. We will all be playing on the XBox and PS3 only soon.
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. These efforts have resulted in a tentative agreement for Vanguard to be co-published by both Sigil Games Online and SOE. All three companies will be showing the game at the upcoming Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) as they work closely together for a successful transition. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is scheduled to launch this winter.
“As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title’s development,” said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. “In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.”
As co-publisher of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil assumes greater control of marketing and PR, while maintaining responsibility for game development, community relations, media relations, customer support, and quality assurance. Under the terms of the agreement, SOE will provide distribution, marketing, hosting and back-end support -- including billing and technical support -- for the game. Additionally, SOE is tentatively planning on adding Vanguard, upon its release, to SOE’s Station Access™ subscription plan. Station Access allows players to enjoy all of SOE’s MMO titles for one low monthly price.
“We are very excited to be working with so many old friends at Sigil,” said John Smedley, president, Sony Online Entertainment. “Vanguard looks beautiful and has an incredibly rich game world. It’s the type of game that will appeal directly to SOE’s hundreds of thousands of players and should fit in perfectly with the current line-up of games available in Station Access.”
”This decision was made mutually by Sigil and Microsoft, in the best interest of the long-term goals for the title,” said Phil Spencer, General Manager at Microsoft Game Studios. “As a key Windows development partner, we will continue to work with Sigil to ensure Vanguard’s ongoing success.”
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the next generation of massively multiplayer online games. The journey takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is currently in a closed beta phase. The game will remain available via Fileplanet for existing beta testers during the transition to SOE. New information will be sent out to testers as the changeover occurs.
For more information about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes please visit www.vanguardsoh.com.
haha thank you for bringing that back up, becuase it is the EXACT same scenario. The onyl difference is we have never heard of FLS, or atleast I have not. or of rick or w/e.
Now sigil was hevily funded and had some rich peopel behind it, people who carry weight or used to, in the MMO world:
Brad McQuaid, Keith Parkinson, Jeff BUtler among the ubers that were there.. and they had to sell out to SOE..but this independent company supposedly has enough money rofl..yea right.
Buh-bye. I'd like to say I'll miss having you try my game, but... after that post, I won't. I'm glad you won't be playing.
The sad thing is that I believe he will be here posting his "I told you so" post and dancing on your game's casket 6 months after it launches... and it won't really be Sony's fault. The market just isn't friendly to mediocre, low-budget titles. It's a bummer, but it's true. One thing's for sure, your CS skills are consistent with what I would expect from your newfound publishing partner. You guys should get along just fine. As for this guy, maybe you should tell him to speak with his feet.... like all those former SWG players did.
very good post and agree fully b/c it will happen. lol You are a smart man =D what game you playing currently bor?
you know what, if POTBS didnt screw itself over by signing up with SOE, they would not have to come to these forums and try to deal with this PR disaster that they created in order to save a few subs.
You do know they posted here BEFORE the SOE announcment right?
FLS has always posted on the mmorpg.com forums.
They have been incredibly down to earth, honest, and friendly to the community for years now.
The quoted press release concerning vanguard above was not a lie. Sigil maintained the development of VG at that time, it wasnt until a later, separate contract, that VG was sold to SoE. Sigil made a poor game and people were canceling their subscriptions to VG; sigil made a business choice to sell to SoE after release.
Nap, isildur is right to write off you and other trolls who come here to post false information and start up flame wars.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
We've talked to every major publisher in the market at one point or another. The deal we got from Sony was head and shoulders above what we were offered by anyone else. The fact of the matter is that we're an anomoly in the market. There aren't very many independant MMO companies out there. Mythic? Owned by EA. Blizzard? Owned by Vivendi. etc. And of those that aren't owned by a big player, most are backed by one and beholden to them. We did things differently. We started very small and self financed the project. We're not carrying the boatload of debt that sank Vanguard. But that also means that we don't fit into the normal 3rd party/publisher relationship, where the publisher puts in lots of up front money and takes most of the backend in return. The hard part for us was finding a publisher that understood that. Finding one that realized if you aren't paying for the development, you don't get to claim the IP. Rusty, in doing our negotiations, stood his ground on this and many other issues, which meant that many of the talks we had with other publishers went nowhere.
Sony is actually doing something different with their platform publishing initiative. I believe Perpetual (Gods and Heroes) is the only other MMO involved so far, but the idea is that Sony is doing the part they do well (marketing and distribution) and leaving the independant companies to do the game. They put in less money up front, and take less in return. But what this does for us is give us access to the kind of distribution clout most small companies can't get without selling their souls, at the price of a very reasonable slice of the backend. We're taking most of the risk, and so we get most of the reward. And we get to keep our IP and our soul.
I hope that even those who have had bad experiences with Sony in the past will at least reserve judgement until the game is shipped, and decide then if it's worth playing. And I bid a sad farewell to those whose hatred is so strong they'll forgo a game they would have enjoyed.
Rick Saada - FLS Dev & EPFBM
Thanks for explaning that Rick, these guys need it laid out in very very simple terms.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner
Guild:St George Squadron
Time will tell if the deal you got from Sony makes up for the revenue you won't make from people like me who won't play any game connected to SOE.
It's too bad--especially so soon after the Vanguard debacle. What do they say about people who don't learn from the past?
You my friend deserve to be flamed any way possible on the basis of paranoia and ignorance
You my friend deserve to be screwed over by every shady corporation in the world for not learning from other's mistakes.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
FLS knew the risks and bad press they'd get for making their bed with $OE. If not, they really need to read a forum or two.
I'd have rather they had AlJazeera publish the freaking game.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Have you read whats on the Flying Labs site? Seriously, why cry over the fact that FL got excactly what they were looking for in a publisher ......
Look at Vanguard's first announcement below. It looks the same. The future of PoTBS will be the same as Vanguard. It is sad that PC gaming is having so many failures. We will all be playing on the XBox and PS3 only soon.
May 5, 2006 – Carlsbad & San Diego, CA – Sigil Games Online and Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that Sigil is working with Microsoft Game Studios on an arrangement to acquire the rights to its highly anticipated massively multiplayer online (MMO) game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. These efforts have resulted in a tentative agreement for Vanguard to be co-published by both Sigil Games Online and SOE. All three companies will be showing the game at the upcoming Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) as they work closely together for a successful transition. Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is scheduled to launch this winter.
“As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title’s development,” said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. “In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.”
As co-publisher of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil assumes greater control of marketing and PR, while maintaining responsibility for game development, community relations, media relations, customer support, and quality assurance. Under the terms of the agreement, SOE will provide distribution, marketing, hosting and back-end support -- including billing and technical support -- for the game. Additionally, SOE is tentatively planning on adding Vanguard, upon its release, to SOE’s Station Access™ subscription plan. Station Access allows players to enjoy all of SOE’s MMO titles for one low monthly price.
“We are very excited to be working with so many old friends at Sigil,” said John Smedley, president, Sony Online Entertainment. “Vanguard looks beautiful and has an incredibly rich game world. It’s the type of game that will appeal directly to SOE’s hundreds of thousands of players and should fit in perfectly with the current line-up of games available in Station Access.”
”This decision was made mutually by Sigil and Microsoft, in the best interest of the long-term goals for the title,” said Phil Spencer, General Manager at Microsoft Game Studios. “As a key Windows development partner, we will continue to work with Sigil to ensure Vanguard’s ongoing success.”
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is the next generation of massively multiplayer online games. The journey takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure. Facing the challenges of a war torn world, the diverse people here struggle to rebuild their once great civilizations. A fragile alliance has been struck, with the lands set upon by invading forces, the races must band together to survive.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is currently in a closed beta phase. The game will remain available via Fileplanet for existing beta testers during the transition to SOE. New information will be sent out to testers as the changeover occurs.
For more information about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes please visit www.vanguardsoh.com.
haha thank you for bringing that back up, becuase it is the EXACT same scenario. The onyl difference is we have never heard of FLS, or atleast I have not. or of rick or w/e.
Now sigil was hevily funded and had some rich peopel behind it, people who carry weight or used to, in the MMO world:
Brad McQuaid, Keith Parkinson, Jeff BUtler among the ubers that were there.. and they had to sell out to SOE..but this independent company supposedly has enough money rofl..yea right.
You are actually bringing up the key issue yourself there...
FLS don't actually need as many subscribers that Sigil would have needed to stay up floating. That according to those statements that you bluntly doesn't care to read.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"