Intro I'm sure this is not the first time this has been mentioned. Most MMO players have probably intuitively grasped that theres is something fundamentally lacking with the WoW MMORPG model. Let me clarify what i mean by the WoW model. By the WoW model, i mean MMORPGs where character progression and development is structured around experience-point based levels, where skills/actions are tiered and where the gameplay is mostly PvE based. .........
You are judging a lot of these "linear" games out of context. MMORPGs usually do have a target audience. You have to keep that target audience in mind when you are judging or reviewing these games. Would you give an italian restaurant a bad review simply becuase they did not serve sushi? Then do not judge a MMORPG devoted to "casual PVE," because it does not cater towards "hardcore PVP." Judge each MMORPG within its own context.
A lot of people who play WoW or LOTRO are not looking for a "2nd life." I believe they are just looking for a few hours of fun.
"Innovation, sandbox, skill based, and something different" have lately become buzzwords in a lot of the MMORPG community. They all sound interesting, but don't think for one moment that any of them are a "magic pill." At the core, it is the fun factor which will lead to a MMORPG success.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Things that are popular and of the highest quality.
IPOD
Coca cola
Gameboy DS
WoW
The beetles
So quality does go hand in hand with popularity.
IPOD- Overpriced over hyped driven device that is no better then competitors that sell for half the price.
Coca-Cola - Sugar water that is basically identical to the sugar water sold by it’s competitors. Marketing over quality at it’s finest.
Nintendo DS Technically inferior to its competitor but succeeds through superior market positioning and the ability of it’s partners to deliver.
The Beetles – Outsold by Britney Spears over the last 10 years.
If anything you’ve made the case for why popularity doesn’t equate to quality. If you want to say WoW is a quality game argue based on the game itself, not on popularity or what some irrelevant critic says. In general, however, the way to be successful is to make an ok product, and position it correctly in the market and advertise the heck out of it. Quality tends to fall a ways down the list of things that make a product successful.
Take the original SWG model but make it ten times more flexible. The skill trees and the concept behind progression in that pre-NGE was great. You did still have to pretty much max out all the trees of a particular proffession to be truly effective though which was the only problem. Still you had the option to be a jack of all trades master of none type if that was your thing.
The way you earned more points to progress was still fairly linear but I don't think a truly sandbox game will ever work. It would just makes everything too confusing and convoluted. Maybe if you adapted something closer to a PnP RPG system where every level you got X points to spend on whatever you want would work or something like Two Worlds for the 360 where you can assign your points anywhere you like at each level.
Well constructed post OP very nice, although I find your suggested solution of cutting out PVE overly simplistic, in that it won't solve any of the problems that you highlighted.
I feel that a big chunk of the problem not only lies with the developers but with the player base itself. We have in a way been brainwashed into the acceptance of the levelling system, so much in fact that if a new or original game was released, that was radically different from the perceived 'norms' of the level based model, that many people would find it hard to accept at least initially.
I don't mean people are narrowminded but I think that it will take a certain degree of re-thinking of our ingrained expectations to embrace a different gaming model without experiencing the benefits first.
In the end I feel that the MMO market WILL gravitate towards a non-level based progression with much more imagination and innovation being shown by future developers, but it will happen more slowly than many of us would like, and will need a highly successfull title to break the mold and change the mindset of a large section of the potential player base.
This change will only occur when the saturation of 'wow' model reaches a point where it turns people off in large enough numbers to make it financially non-viable. I think were starting to see the begining of this trend now, and its a good thing because it forces companies to concentrate on game play to keep people subscribing, rather than a long levelling timesink.
Why do people watch Weekends at Bernies when there are comedy masterpieces like The big Lebowski out there? Why do people read cheezy harlequin novels when there are authors like Keruoac, Dostojevski, Hemingway and so forth? Why do people eat at MC Dondalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable?
Im not entirely understanding you.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
Not what I meant, MS donalds is not the only choice out there, so it is not the only thing peopel are given.
It is one of the easiest and fastest options out there.
People go there if not because they are lazy they go there because they do not have time, or dont care to make the time.
My point is that if you ONLY supply a total sandbox model like old UO or an even extremer version of EVE then sure people would play it, at least some would, given no other option.
But that is not going to happen, someone will always supply a game based on the WoW model and the majority will go there because it is easy, fast and accessible.
Given the choice most people will travel the road of least resistance, making the WoW model the major system for a very long time to come.
You cant force people to play, you can not force people to enjoy themself.
If there is no path, no tangible goal, tangible goal being something you will achieve fairly soon, then people just will not bother, however aweseome the payoff is rumored to be once you get there.
Dropping a player of today in a total sandbox game, were there is nothign to tell you what to do next you would be extremely lucky to have more then a 5% retention, and that is from the people you can get to try it.
Given the options out there I do not think all that many would.
The "harsh road" model I think speaks to very few of the MMO population.
On the other hand, a total sandbox game will be a lot easier to produce, if leave it to the players to create all of the content you have suddenly reduced you development cost by a giant factor.
All you need to do is create the world and the tools players need to make something of it.
Still not sure it would attract enough players for it to be viable though, we will know when someone creates one, if someone does.
I can understand the allure of such a game, especially when seeing the MMO market today, there just is very little out there for people who do not like the WoW model.
But that is the way of markets, sure you can sell pink cars, but unless you give people the option to get it in some other colour you are not going to sell all at that many, even if it the fastest thing around.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take the original SWG model but make it ten times more flexible. The skill trees and the concept behind progression in that pre-NGE was great. You did still have to pretty much max out all the trees of a particular proffession to be truly effective though which was the only problem. Still you had the option to be a jack of all trades master of none type if that was your thing. The way you earned more points to progress was still fairly linear but I don't think a truly sandbox game will ever work. It would just makes everything too confusing and convoluted. Maybe if you adapted something closer to a PnP RPG system where every level you got X points to spend on whatever you want would work or something like Two Worlds for the 360 where you can assign your points anywhere you like at each level.
Yup. SWG (before it was roooooned) was the only non-linear MMORPG.
What does WOW have, like 8 or 9 million subscribers? No, seriously, we only here that figure mentioned like 400 times a day on this forum alone. When is popularity ever an indicator of quality? Of course, this is a very dead horse. No one can back up the claim that "WOW is a crappy game", but you really cant make any kind of arguement for why WOW is a great MMO either. Oh, I forgot, 9 mil subs, how could we forget...
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
Your missing the point, WoW is popular and is the highest rated MMO ever.. Macdonalds is popular but will not win awards for its food and people do not recommend it.
No, I got the point, I just disagree. I'll use a different analogy that is more in line with your hypothosis. Just because a TV show wins an emmy or a movie wins an Oscar, it does not mean that movie or show was good. Are you certain that every single award WoW has won is based upon a fair and unbiased, quality award system? Could you assure that the monetary success of the game, tech politics and media savvy didn't play a part in WoW's awards? An award MAY be an indicator of quality, but to say it IS a factual indicator of quality ....I'm skeptical.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. (and your source is?, I have been in 3 different guilds on 3 different games that all got their start in WoW.) If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. (because every single WoW player has a rig that can play every other mmo, plus even if they didn't they all have the money to drop on a new comp) Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS. Or perhaps since they're not, they can't. You throw out my 'car analogy' because of the price difference between a porche and a honda civic. So wouldn't that nullify your argument here? It isn't WoW that is the honda, it is that you can play WoW on the Honda. That is what gives millions of people access to the game. They have the Honda already. But you are acting as if a higher spec'd game was better than WoW, people could automatically afford the porche. So just change your statement to read 'if other MMO's were as interesting or as fun as WoW, millions of people would spend 1000s of dollars getting new comps rather than play WoW one more second. All you prove here is that WoW is a good enough game that people will think twice about buying a new comp....'eh, this game is good enough, I'll save my money'.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
More people buy IPODs than any other MP3 player.. more people buy coca cola than any other cola soft-drink, more people have bought a beetles album than any other artist... see what I am getting at?
It seems that you are trying to say the majority is always right. Here you use the McDonalds argument, here 'when people buy more of something, it shows its quality'. But in your first paragraph you dismissed this argument, so I'm not sure what you are saying. Either you think popularity is an indicator of quality, and therefore Mcdonald's must be quality food, or you think that popularity is only an indicator of quality when the topic in discussion is also wins awards, which makes no sense. You either have to admit that popularity is not an indicator of quality or you have to admit that it isn't. You can't have your 'WoW is great' and 'Mcdonald's sux' at the same time, unless you admit this is an opinion, albeit popular, it is not fact.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
This would make sense if the cars where the same price, ask any 1.. "want this hona or this porche" which do you think they'll go for,
Ok, then I'll switch to the movie analogy again, since movie tickets are generally the same across the board. Would you say that the most popular movie by ticket sales is the highest quality movie made in any given year? There are plenty of mass appeal movies, there are plenty of niche movies, both can make profits. Their quality is subjective and opinion. Their popularity does not always indicate how good a movie it is. It can, but not always.
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
Like WoW
Well start saying that then. Start acknowleging that WoW's popularity is a 'phenomenon' and not the undisputed 'fact' proving its quality.
I think one primary element of the sandbox mechanic, is that progression kinda-sorta avoids being linear by stemming out in a variety of contradictory and non-comparitive directions. e.g. being an adventurer is just one profession among an array, and comparing the strength of an adventurer to a tailor would be silly. however, when being a tailor is just a tiny offshoot in the big adventurer game, it goes back to being linear again. likewise, when you let players persue all the directions with a single character, it goes back to being the linear adventurer game, with crafting and harvesting as little side games, rather than feeling like the big sandbox thing. i think it's about players being able to create characters of all different types.
least that's the only way i've seen the "WoW model" diverge, so far (e.g. UO, EVE, the original SWG) yet still has the problem of being a finite linear process of character progression.
personally, i'd prefer to see it diverge further, by changing what it means to progress in the game. players do need something to strive for, but i don't think it has to be becoming ever stronger, whether it be an ever stronger warrior, or an ever stronger tailor. you could have community progression, such as in a pvp game, where players fight to strengthen their faction, in a way that feels meaningful, in an ever changing ebb and flow battle against other factions. this could be done via fighting on the frontlines, or being a crafter, spy, etc, etc. you'd just have to make sure players feel entrenched in thier faction, as part of their identity, so that they'd become attached to seeing it do well, in a persistent unending sort of way.
or, to go in the opposite direction of thinking it has to be about pvp, you could take a cue from second life and meez, to make a game where it's all about customization. where players get to live in some sort of exotic (but structured and challenging) world, just trying to carve out an identity that they'd grow attached to. exploring the gameworld to build who they want to be, build a house, get together with other players to build a town, etc, etc. you'd just have to make it so players identify with the personalities of thier characters, and the homes, livelihoods, and social connections they carve out for themselves.
the problem with the "WOW model" is its how every MMO game is. it's not bad necessarily, i know its perfect for some. i'm just sick to death of it being all there is, of any real quality.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I can't say the WoW model is broken. I can't particularly understand why people still enjoy it, but I don't particularly care either. If they say they enjoy it, I'll just take their word on it. It's understandable that companies want to make money without risking, hence making 'WoW clones'; but it's frustrating for those who want more out of their games.
On the discussion about PvE, when I think back, the only time I've ever enjoyed PvE was during single player games. In MMO's I honestly don't remember a time when I found PvE to be entertaining. When I think back to the time I played WoW, I don't think about which bosses we killed and what loot we grabbed, I think about the accomplishments a group of players achieved. To explain that further, it doesn't matter if it's PvP, PvE, Industry, what have you, when I think of having fun in an MMO, it's 'working' as a team to accomplish some task. 'Working' probably isn't the best word to use there, but hopefully you get my meaning.
That's not to say PvE doesn't have its purpose. In EVE, I make most of my money through trade, but even still I pull out a Dominix and go rat from time to time. A few extra isk is nice but more than anything, for me, it's just something to add a little variety to the game. I don't remember where I heard it, and it was said about mining then, but I can relate it to ratting as well: It's similar to fishing but you don't have to have a boat and a fishing rod. Sometimes it's nice to just relax and go smack around some rats. I could even tolerate them adding a bit more variety to missions.
I don't want to see any more PvE than that.
Beyond that, what am I saying, EVEN that much PvE is meaningless in MMOs. When you kill a boss, the game doesn't change. Even in EVE, I often hear jokes about how many times players get a mission to get a doll for some guy's daughter's birthday. It's the repetition I don't like, and that is inevitable with PvE. You simply cannot have content created fast enough (and quality content? forget it).
That's precisely why I am enjoying EVE so much. It's up to the players to make the 'content', we're just given enough tools to do so. There's not even a real story to it. Alliances don't have some ultimate goal to achieve when they plot to take over the universe, they're just doing it because it's fun to take over land, defend it with your 'clone', and then forcefully remove your neighbors from theirs.
On character development, EVE suits me just fine. I'm a fairly casual player, though with a flexible schedule. I usually only play a few times a week for various lengths. Sometimes it's 30 minutes, sometimes it's 6 hours. At times it's a bit annoying that you don't have a direct input on how quickly you learn skills, but there's one thing that I truly truly truly love about EVE's skill system: I don't have to repeat the same task over and over to progress my character. I don't have to grind mobs, I don't have to spend hours PvPing, I just select a skill to train and let it do its thing. I can log off for a week and my character *still* progresses.
To sum up all my rambling: Different games for different people. It's just unfortunante so few enjoy the sandbox type of games to the point that most developers are making the same game with a different name. I only hope more choose the same path I did and venture off to these games when they get bored of WoW.
the future of pve content is player controlled pve content.
what this means is that players will be able to control "henchmen" to guard their things. Good type player will get to have cities in which they control soldiers guards and other magical defenders. Evil type players will get to control other monsters and evil types in their caves, lairs and castles..
there will still be mindless pve mobs, but this will bridge the pvp/pve gap since the minds of much of the pve content will be equiped and controlled by players in the sence that players can define the mobs existance "guard here", "Equip this" , "defend this person".
Only one problem is actually discussed in every one of such threads.
We want it to be addictive, we want to feel higher and higher BUT at same time we want it to be safe and healthy.
There is no possibility to develop perfect drug, drug which will deliver euphoria like, lets say, heroin and at same time will stay healthy and safe.
In my opinion WoW is much closer to perfect drug than any other mmos on market. They removed most dangerous (addictive) elements from game. As a player with experience, you always feel it. Lack of sense of community, soft PVP and many more. But actually im pretty happy with "fun/addiction" factor of WoW. I can play it and have a real life. I remember days when i was waking up with thoughts about UO (my current MMO those days) and being unable to concentrate on work or anything. Waiting for evening to come back home and login.
Its all over now. Im really living in peace with WoW. Think about it.
I disagree Wow is not simple in the sense that it is easy...in fact out of all the mmorpgs it is the hardest too master.
I would have to disagree here. World of Warcraft is one of the easiest games to Master. All it takes is time and the ability to follow directions.
The classes are easy to manage with only a few different talent specs actually viable.
Don't get me wrong. The game can be fun. I had fun leveling my first 3 level 60s. The fourth one was a killer and I hated every minute of it. The end game is horrible though. Instead of providing more of the same fun content that helped level you to the end, they switch it up and provide faction grinding and raiding to get further improve your character. Where are the great quests to get good gear or better skills?
What is so wrong with having some quests that give out epic rewards. See the problem with a game like this is that it focuses so much on what their current Developers enjoy and those current devs are EQ1 players who loved endgame raiding. Now Blizzard doens't have quite the crush on the end game guilds that Brad has, but Blizzard's current Developer team is pretty close.
Personally I think Blizzard lost most of their great talent to Arenanet and Flagship Studios. (as well as some other smaller start ups).
I would also have to disagree, I still hold that wow is the hardest mmorpg to master and that is why so many people give up at the end, because raiding is hard and they can't take the steep curve required to do it. Also I bet you didn't know that you could cash attacks in pvp, only 1 percent of wow population knows how to actually pull off combos. Trust me its much harder to master than eq.
Comments
You are judging a lot of these "linear" games out of context. MMORPGs usually do have a target audience. You have to keep that target audience in mind when you are judging or reviewing these games. Would you give an italian restaurant a bad review simply becuase they did not serve sushi? Then do not judge a MMORPG devoted to "casual PVE," because it does not cater towards "hardcore PVP." Judge each MMORPG within its own context.
A lot of people who play WoW or LOTRO are not looking for a "2nd life." I believe they are just looking for a few hours of fun.
"Innovation, sandbox, skill based, and something different" have lately become buzzwords in a lot of the MMORPG community. They all sound interesting, but don't think for one moment that any of them are a "magic pill." At the core, it is the fun factor which will lead to a MMORPG success.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Things that are popular and of the highest quality.
So quality does go hand in hand with popularity.
Take the original SWG model but make it ten times more flexible. The skill trees and the concept behind progression in that pre-NGE was great. You did still have to pretty much max out all the trees of a particular proffession to be truly effective though which was the only problem. Still you had the option to be a jack of all trades master of none type if that was your thing.
The way you earned more points to progress was still fairly linear but I don't think a truly sandbox game will ever work. It would just makes everything too confusing and convoluted. Maybe if you adapted something closer to a PnP RPG system where every level you got X points to spend on whatever you want would work or something like Two Worlds for the 360 where you can assign your points anywhere you like at each level.
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WAR is coming. Look busy.
Well constructed post OP very nice, although I find your suggested solution of cutting out PVE overly simplistic, in that it won't solve any of the problems that you highlighted.
I feel that a big chunk of the problem not only lies with the developers but with the player base itself. We have in a way been brainwashed into the acceptance of the levelling system, so much in fact that if a new or original game was released, that was radically different from the perceived 'norms' of the level based model, that many people would find it hard to accept at least initially.
I don't mean people are narrowminded but I think that it will take a certain degree of re-thinking of our ingrained expectations to embrace a different gaming model without experiencing the benefits first.
In the end I feel that the MMO market WILL gravitate towards a non-level based progression with much more imagination and innovation being shown by future developers, but it will happen more slowly than many of us would like, and will need a highly successfull title to break the mold and change the mindset of a large section of the potential player base.
This change will only occur when the saturation of 'wow' model reaches a point where it turns people off in large enough numbers to make it financially non-viable. I think were starting to see the begining of this trend now, and its a good thing because it forces companies to concentrate on game play to keep people subscribing, rather than a long levelling timesink.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Isnt the phenomenon that people eat at McDonalds when home made food is ten times nicer, better and more enjoyable a testament of how the market is fed on what its given?
Sure some people are intelligent to see though this and judge for themselves, but lets face it a lot of people are easily converted by glossy surface qualities.
Not what I meant, MS donalds is not the only choice out there, so it is not the only thing peopel are given.
It is one of the easiest and fastest options out there.
People go there if not because they are lazy they go there because they do not have time, or dont care to make the time.
My point is that if you ONLY supply a total sandbox model like old UO or an even extremer version of EVE then sure people would play it, at least some would, given no other option.
But that is not going to happen, someone will always supply a game based on the WoW model and the majority will go there because it is easy, fast and accessible.
Given the choice most people will travel the road of least resistance, making the WoW model the major system for a very long time to come.
You cant force people to play, you can not force people to enjoy themself.
If there is no path, no tangible goal, tangible goal being something you will achieve fairly soon, then people just will not bother, however aweseome the payoff is rumored to be once you get there.
Dropping a player of today in a total sandbox game, were there is nothign to tell you what to do next you would be extremely lucky to have more then a 5% retention, and that is from the people you can get to try it.
Given the options out there I do not think all that many would.
The "harsh road" model I think speaks to very few of the MMO population.
On the other hand, a total sandbox game will be a lot easier to produce, if leave it to the players to create all of the content you have suddenly reduced you development cost by a giant factor.
All you need to do is create the world and the tools players need to make something of it.
Still not sure it would attract enough players for it to be viable though, we will know when someone creates one, if someone does.
I can understand the allure of such a game, especially when seeing the MMO market today, there just is very little out there for people who do not like the WoW model.
But that is the way of markets, sure you can sell pink cars, but unless you give people the option to get it in some other colour you are not going to sell all at that many, even if it the fastest thing around.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Yup. SWG (before it was roooooned) was the only non-linear MMORPG.
Popularity isn't a measure of quality. However, since WOW is also critically acclaimed from every single reputable website and publication, its quality is without question. You don't need any more proof than that. The fans love it and the critics love it. That means without any doubt the game is great.
Just like McDonald's. Mass appeal does not equal greatness. Greatness is a quality assigned based upon individual opinion, not fact. It is fact that most fans and critics agree that WoW is great. It is opinion to say it IS without a doubt great.
Your missing the point, WoW is popular and is the highest rated MMO ever.. Macdonalds is popular but will not win awards for its food and people do not recommend it.
No, I got the point, I just disagree. I'll use a different analogy that is more in line with your hypothosis. Just because a TV show wins an emmy or a movie wins an Oscar, it does not mean that movie or show was good. Are you certain that every single award WoW has won is based upon a fair and unbiased, quality award system? Could you assure that the monetary success of the game, tech politics and media savvy didn't play a part in WoW's awards? An award MAY be an indicator of quality, but to say it IS a factual indicator of quality ....I'm skeptical.
The vast, VAST majority of people feel WOW is a higher quality game than other MMOs, because millions of people are NOT playing other MMOs. Millions of players who are done with WOW are NOT even spreading to other MMOs. (and your source is?, I have been in 3 different guilds on 3 different games that all got their start in WoW.) If other MMOs were as interesting or as fun as WOW, millions of people would be playing them. (because every single WoW player has a rig that can play every other mmo, plus even if they didn't they all have the money to drop on a new comp) Since they're not, its quite obvious other MMOs have much bigger PROBLEMS. Or perhaps since they're not, they can't. You throw out my 'car analogy' because of the price difference between a porche and a honda civic. So wouldn't that nullify your argument here? It isn't WoW that is the honda, it is that you can play WoW on the Honda. That is what gives millions of people access to the game. They have the Honda already. But you are acting as if a higher spec'd game was better than WoW, people could automatically afford the porche. So just change your statement to read 'if other MMO's were as interesting or as fun as WoW, millions of people would spend 1000s of dollars getting new comps rather than play WoW one more second. All you prove here is that WoW is a good enough game that people will think twice about buying a new comp....'eh, this game is good enough, I'll save my money'.
Mcdonald's again. Because millions of people are going to McDonald's and not to fancy 4 star resteraunts, it doesn't make McDonald's a higher quality, same is true for WoW.
More people buy IPODs than any other MP3 player.. more people buy coca cola than any other cola soft-drink, more people have bought a beetles album than any other artist... see what I am getting at?
It seems that you are trying to say the majority is always right. Here you use the McDonalds argument, here 'when people buy more of something, it shows its quality'. But in your first paragraph you dismissed this argument, so I'm not sure what you are saying. Either you think popularity is an indicator of quality, and therefore Mcdonald's must be quality food, or you think that popularity is only an indicator of quality when the topic in discussion is also wins awards, which makes no sense. You either have to admit that popularity is not an indicator of quality or you have to admit that it isn't. You can't have your 'WoW is great' and 'Mcdonald's sux' at the same time, unless you admit this is an opinion, albeit popular, it is not fact.
Only appealing to a small niche of players is a major problem. I can't recall in any business that having too many users or customers has ever been considered bad. But at MMORPG.com being popular doesn't mean anything except if you enjoy popular games, you're a sheep;) This from the same users who purposely create extra accounts to lower WOWs rating. How sad and pathetic is that?
Appealling to a niche is not a major problem, it is capitalism. You need to take business 101 again, because you missed some very key points. There are several ways to make a profit. One can be gearing a business to a mass audience, like WoW. Another is by knowing that even the game with the mass audience won't attract 100% of the people, and so capitalism encourages entrepeneurs to jump on the unclaimed dollars and create 'niche' games. Millions drive Honda Civics. It is raved by its owners and critics alike. Porche's are owned by a much lower percentage of the population, they are regarded as a much higher quality product than the Civic. Porche is geared toward a niche audience. Does Porche have a major problem?
This would make sense if the cars where the same price, ask any 1.. "want this hona or this porche" which do you think they'll go for,
Ok, then I'll switch to the movie analogy again, since movie tickets are generally the same across the board. Would you say that the most popular movie by ticket sales is the highest quality movie made in any given year? There are plenty of mass appeal movies, there are plenty of niche movies, both can make profits. Their quality is subjective and opinion. Their popularity does not always indicate how good a movie it is. It can, but not always.
If future generations hold that Wal-Mart holds all the answers, the entire planet is doomed. Mass appeal never has and never will be synonomous with quality. It is only on rare, cosmicly aligned moments that something with mass appeal is also a product of quality.
Like WoW
Well start saying that then. Start acknowleging that WoW's popularity is a 'phenomenon' and not the undisputed 'fact' proving its quality.
I think one primary element of the sandbox mechanic, is that progression kinda-sorta avoids being linear by stemming out in a variety of contradictory and non-comparitive directions. e.g. being an adventurer is just one profession among an array, and comparing the strength of an adventurer to a tailor would be silly. however, when being a tailor is just a tiny offshoot in the big adventurer game, it goes back to being linear again. likewise, when you let players persue all the directions with a single character, it goes back to being the linear adventurer game, with crafting and harvesting as little side games, rather than feeling like the big sandbox thing. i think it's about players being able to create characters of all different types.
least that's the only way i've seen the "WoW model" diverge, so far (e.g. UO, EVE, the original SWG) yet still has the problem of being a finite linear process of character progression.
personally, i'd prefer to see it diverge further, by changing what it means to progress in the game. players do need something to strive for, but i don't think it has to be becoming ever stronger, whether it be an ever stronger warrior, or an ever stronger tailor. you could have community progression, such as in a pvp game, where players fight to strengthen their faction, in a way that feels meaningful, in an ever changing ebb and flow battle against other factions. this could be done via fighting on the frontlines, or being a crafter, spy, etc, etc. you'd just have to make sure players feel entrenched in thier faction, as part of their identity, so that they'd become attached to seeing it do well, in a persistent unending sort of way.
or, to go in the opposite direction of thinking it has to be about pvp, you could take a cue from second life and meez, to make a game where it's all about customization. where players get to live in some sort of exotic (but structured and challenging) world, just trying to carve out an identity that they'd grow attached to. exploring the gameworld to build who they want to be, build a house, get together with other players to build a town, etc, etc. you'd just have to make it so players identify with the personalities of thier characters, and the homes, livelihoods, and social connections they carve out for themselves.
the problem with the "WOW model" is its how every MMO game is. it's not bad necessarily, i know its perfect for some. i'm just sick to death of it being all there is, of any real quality.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I can't say the WoW model is broken. I can't particularly understand why people still enjoy it, but I don't particularly care either. If they say they enjoy it, I'll just take their word on it. It's understandable that companies want to make money without risking, hence making 'WoW clones'; but it's frustrating for those who want more out of their games.
On the discussion about PvE, when I think back, the only time I've ever enjoyed PvE was during single player games. In MMO's I honestly don't remember a time when I found PvE to be entertaining. When I think back to the time I played WoW, I don't think about which bosses we killed and what loot we grabbed, I think about the accomplishments a group of players achieved. To explain that further, it doesn't matter if it's PvP, PvE, Industry, what have you, when I think of having fun in an MMO, it's 'working' as a team to accomplish some task. 'Working' probably isn't the best word to use there, but hopefully you get my meaning.
That's not to say PvE doesn't have its purpose. In EVE, I make most of my money through trade, but even still I pull out a Dominix and go rat from time to time. A few extra isk is nice but more than anything, for me, it's just something to add a little variety to the game. I don't remember where I heard it, and it was said about mining then, but I can relate it to ratting as well: It's similar to fishing but you don't have to have a boat and a fishing rod. Sometimes it's nice to just relax and go smack around some rats. I could even tolerate them adding a bit more variety to missions.
I don't want to see any more PvE than that.
Beyond that, what am I saying, EVEN that much PvE is meaningless in MMOs. When you kill a boss, the game doesn't change. Even in EVE, I often hear jokes about how many times players get a mission to get a doll for some guy's daughter's birthday. It's the repetition I don't like, and that is inevitable with PvE. You simply cannot have content created fast enough (and quality content? forget it).
That's precisely why I am enjoying EVE so much. It's up to the players to make the 'content', we're just given enough tools to do so. There's not even a real story to it. Alliances don't have some ultimate goal to achieve when they plot to take over the universe, they're just doing it because it's fun to take over land, defend it with your 'clone', and then forcefully remove your neighbors from theirs.
On character development, EVE suits me just fine. I'm a fairly casual player, though with a flexible schedule. I usually only play a few times a week for various lengths. Sometimes it's 30 minutes, sometimes it's 6 hours. At times it's a bit annoying that you don't have a direct input on how quickly you learn skills, but there's one thing that I truly truly truly love about EVE's skill system: I don't have to repeat the same task over and over to progress my character. I don't have to grind mobs, I don't have to spend hours PvPing, I just select a skill to train and let it do its thing. I can log off for a week and my character *still* progresses.
To sum up all my rambling: Different games for different people. It's just unfortunante so few enjoy the sandbox type of games to the point that most developers are making the same game with a different name. I only hope more choose the same path I did and venture off to these games when they get bored of WoW.
the future of pve content is player controlled pve content.
what this means is that players will be able to control "henchmen" to guard their things. Good type player will get to have cities in which they control soldiers guards and other magical defenders. Evil type players will get to control other monsters and evil types in their caves, lairs and castles..
there will still be mindless pve mobs, but this will bridge the pvp/pve gap since the minds of much of the pve content will be equiped and controlled by players in the sence that players can define the mobs existance "guard here", "Equip this" , "defend this person".
this is the future of mmo's.
When you get to level 70, now you have to raid-grind. When your finished with raid-grinding, then what do you do? Wait for another expansion?
If you knew your destiny beforehand, wouldn't life be borring.
Wouldn't it have been easier to just sum it up to
"Nothing is perfect and there isn't one thing that will be praised by everyone"?
Saves alot of time and space.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
MMORPGs are digital narcotics
Only one problem is actually discussed in every one of such threads.
We want it to be addictive, we want to feel higher and higher BUT at same time we want it to be safe and healthy.
There is no possibility to develop perfect drug, drug which will deliver euphoria like, lets say, heroin and at same time will stay healthy and safe.
In my opinion WoW is much closer to perfect drug than any other mmos on market. They removed most dangerous (addictive) elements from game. As a player with experience, you always feel it. Lack of sense of community, soft PVP and many more. But actually im pretty happy with "fun/addiction" factor of WoW. I can play it and have a real life. I remember days when i was waking up with thoughts about UO (my current MMO those days) and being unable to concentrate on work or anything. Waiting for evening to come back home and login.
Its all over now. Im really living in peace with WoW. Think about it.
I would have to disagree here. World of Warcraft is one of the easiest games to Master. All it takes is time and the ability to follow directions.
The classes are easy to manage with only a few different talent specs actually viable.
Don't get me wrong. The game can be fun. I had fun leveling my first 3 level 60s. The fourth one was a killer and I hated every minute of it. The end game is horrible though. Instead of providing more of the same fun content that helped level you to the end, they switch it up and provide faction grinding and raiding to get further improve your character. Where are the great quests to get good gear or better skills?
What is so wrong with having some quests that give out epic rewards. See the problem with a game like this is that it focuses so much on what their current Developers enjoy and those current devs are EQ1 players who loved endgame raiding. Now Blizzard doens't have quite the crush on the end game guilds that Brad has, but Blizzard's current Developer team is pretty close.
Personally I think Blizzard lost most of their great talent to Arenanet and Flagship Studios. (as well as some other smaller start ups).
I would also have to disagree, I still hold that wow is the hardest mmorpg to master and that is why so many people give up at the end, because raiding is hard and they can't take the steep curve required to do it. Also I bet you didn't know that you could cash attacks in pvp, only 1 percent of wow population knows how to actually pull off combos. Trust me its much harder to master than eq.