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So..To the guys who said this wouldn't be an item-centric raid fest...
Neanderthal
Member RarePosts: 1,861
With the new information coming out are you starting to see the writting on the wall? Are you at least starting to doubt your certainty that I and a few others were wrong when we said this game would be an item-centric raid fest?
Some of you will remember the long, long arguments we had on this subject on this board. I mostly remember Aelfin and Sturmrabe being the most vocal in saying we were wrong. But there were others too. So I'm just wondering if your certainty is begining to waver.
I could dig up some of the info I've read recently but I'm going to assume that you've all read it already. I'll just sum things up a little.
There will be at least eight raid dungeons in the game AT RELEASE. Each of those will have three tiers. To move on to the second tier of any raid you will first have to beat one of the 1st tiers and you will need to equip your guild members with 1st tier items before you'll have a chance at beating a 2nd tier of a dungeon. Equiping everyone will mean repeatedly running 1st tiers to get drops for everyone. Then you will move on to the 2nd tiers of the dungeons and go through the same process again, upgrading your items so you can move on to the 3rd tiers. Starting to sound painfully familiar? Raid grinding anyone?
If I remember right they said it will take something like 3 hours to beat a dungeon which I assume means 3 hours for a tier. And of course they are going to give the most unrealistically optomistic number they possibly can so I think it's safe to assume that in reality it will probably be more like 5-6 hours per raid per tier, and that's probably only if everything goes really well. And then, being wildly optomistic, you will have to run that same raid at least 24 times to equip everyone in your raid group and that's assuming that you only have 24 people in your guild to equip. And then, you will most likely need equipment from each of the first tiers before you can move on to a second tier so after you raid that one tier of that one dungeon at least 24 times you still have 7 other 1st tiers to raid at least 24 times before you will move on to the 2nd tiers.
Ugg.
So this isn't going to be a raiding game, huh? It's not going to be item-centric?
Then what is this all about? Just get real here for a minute and ask yourself why they would put all this in, why they would go to the trouble to set up this huge raiding time sink if there were really any viable alternative to it. Athelan said himself that nobody would raid if they could get the same rewards some other way.
Ok, I still can't prove concisively that I'm right and this game will revolve around PvE raiding. But does anyone really still want to argue that it won't be? I stand by my long held position that people who don't want to play another raid-fest game should stay away from AoC. And that's not a slam against the game. It will be what it will be, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game. It just means that it will be a bad game for people who don't want to devote their lives to raiding.
If anyone still doubts what the end-game will be like in AoC I think they are being foolish. I still can't prove that I was right....what, two years ago? At least that long. I still have to fall back on the statement that time will tell. But unless you're in denial you should be starting to see the writting on the wall.
Comments
The only way to really know how the released game will be is to play it. Anything else is speculation and drivel.
I hope this game ends up to my liking but I'm not holding my breath that it will, like so many disillusioned individuals on these forums. If it's not good enough I'll try my luck with the next game.
Ultimately it comes down to this; Better to have developers at least try to release games that will be diverse and fail in the process, than to have just a couple watered down games and imitators all over the place just so to avoid failure.
So, no matter the end result with this game, I wish them good luck and hope that they make it. It's so easy to be the negative voice. I'm just hoping that the vocal minority that is voicing their negativity will not dissuade future developers from making the next generation diverse games. Else you'll have to content yourselves with the next cookie cutter product down the line.
Lets flip it 180.
There would be no end game raiding.
You would do the same post but with "omg shit game with no content" instead
Very true about only knowing until you play it, but I think its pretty safe to say that the end game will be raid oriented. Its silly to say anything else with the amount of raid content at release. My only hope is that there is enough group content at the end to keep us non-raiders happy.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
While I don't like the attention they put on raiding I think you are completely wrong. They are separating PVE raid from PVP and game. Athlan him self has stated that most will go for guild pvp for end game content but raiding will be there for a PVE alternative. I hate WoW raiding because I hate the guilds and the whole elitists nerd way they do things.
For me this game ismore akin to Lineage 2 then WoW. Except raiding will get you no where in PVP. I hope they keep crated gear made from PVP the top items. I don't like the sounds of it not having stats or being as strong, just socketable for a specific role. I'm hoping that only applies to PVE gear.
They will never focus on PVE alone and ignore PVP, they are departmentelised. PVPers coming to AOC are at least the most vocal majority. If done right raiding is actually fun and ties in to a game world. I miss the pre WoW years when there weren't PVPers and raiders. Raiding was part of leveling and gearing up and didn't require a tight schedule. Bad ass items could be obtained for end game off top bosses, some times instanced some times not. WoW sepreted raid from the rest of the game world. I remember doing every PVE aspect in a game and then going to PVP or siege.
I personally enjoy raiding. So... works for me.
BTW, I'd raid with no epics, and most raiders I talk to agree. Its about the working together, and seeing the content, and enjoying yourself with a bunch of cool people.
Yes, little baubles to say you've beaten the Temple of Relentless Doom are fun, but overall, I would be perhaps happier if the raiding rewards were just neat mounts, pets, novelty items, etc. That would almost make it more fun, IMHO.
The items are just there so you can work out a progression, and so each week the attempts become a little easier. Its a decent system, even if I wish there was a way to quick-equip guildies. If you can really get raid-quality gear from crafting, you actually may be able to quick-equip guildies, and bypass the need to regrind old instances.
BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh?
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
I know how u feel m8, i miss those times.
Anyway if the raid equipment is no better than normal crafted equipment me, and most other hardcore pvpers i think, wont have a problem with raid content. If it is something game breaking though.....
New article on "items", might be interesting for some.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/21108
And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
the story is all important. Least to me.
Anyways even if this is raid orientated some people like that.. ya know?
I've never understood why so many people want only PvP for end game content.
Talk about boring and repetative. Sure, I liked to PvP. But not ALL THE TIME. I've got 30,000 kills in WW2 Online alone (and I haven't been subscribed to it for over half its life since 2001). A game to me is supposed to be: a) Fun b) Entertaining c) Diverting (from real life). If a game gives me more options for this those things, great! I just finished a single player version of boggle for a java class. Its fun to play. For about 30 minutes at a time at most. Need diversity, not stagnation. And fighting over a battlekeep or forts or whatever they are in DAOC these days or bases in Planetside gets just as old. I got my uber high rankings in PvP games in the past, don't need to stroke my ego that way anymore. I want FUN.
Why do you wanna run around in : T1, T2 or T3 ? Because you wanna look cool, and after all stats are great but the looks and status you get are better. There has never been said that all gear will be the same and nothing ramps, but the gaps will be allot smaller between them.
Once more a crap topic without a decent reason.
Well i think thast this has just about put the last nail in the coffin , if you like pvp play war, if you like pve play Aoc ... or WoW.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Or play real pvp games like CS or TF2 or even WW2 Online or Planetside.
But then you couldn't grief
.
I guess you owe me your nuts and 50,000 dollars then (btw keep your nuts and just hand over the $$$) because the best crafting materials that you will need for PvP will come from harvesting materials in the Border Kingdoms, not from PvE raids.. Btw where did you get that "flawless" logic from?
They have seperated PvE and PvP endgame playstyles, but somehow they would manage to force players to raid to get the best PvP gear? Are you on drugs or something?
He s right won t say anymore.
If its gonna be as dumb as "T1, T2, T3", then its bigger dissapointment than Vanguard....
The ultimate solution to every problem: more space marines.
It can be worse for alot of players. Theres alot of people that don thave the time for it and they feel they re behind others and will never catch up. This will make some leave. WOW is popular still because the rest of the game is easy, and can nofarm gear in those boring BG s. IMO needing to clear 1 tier to get to the next and only being able to suceed if everyone is geared from the previous tier is a huge waste of time and alot of people don t want to do it anymore. I woll say this is IMO so don t jump all over me for it i m allowed to have one
Do you remember the last time you had this discussion with Athelan? Your contention was that PvP gear was going to be had by grinding PvE? Do you remember what Athelan said very clearly to you?
"The most powerful PvP items will be resultant from PvP quite simple. There is no reason for us to put them in the PvE areas for example since we have the dual layer system."
So which part is wishful thinking? What evidence do you have that suddenly the path has changed and the good PvP items will suddenly be dropping via PvE? I mean, at the point Athelan said that, you pretty much admitted that you are paranoid about the game being PvE-Raid Centric and that you were convinced that AoC was going to be a raid grinding/gimped.
Feel free to refresh yourself
Tell you what, to make it fair, why dont you explain your philosophy to folks, and then see how much credence they give to your point of view.
You wont trade, do anything with a PvE Raider. You want to "progress" equally to them? Do you have a definition of what equal progress is at that point? What evidence makes you think that you cant accomplish any part of the PvE content in AoC short of raid content? You know, the content you dont want to feel obligated to do.
So you are against the idea that a PvE Raider is going to get gear that, *gasp*, is going to help him progress thru PvE raids! That somehow impinges on your progress? But wait, you arent progressing down that path...hmmm
A PvE Raider gets gear that helps him progress in PvE, helps him in "his PvE World, has some benefit in other places" A PvPer gets gear that helps him in "his world" more, but has some benefit in other places. Someone who doesnt do either doesnt have a set that helps him excel....
Do you see that as a PvE-centric grind game?
Did you read: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/21108 ?
Which is nearly the exact info you were given seven months ago. No offense, I've thought you've made some good points in the past, but this crusade right now borders on the ridiculous, as you seem to be really reaching so you either have a reason to dislike the game, or because you desperately want to be right.
Just help me out with a few things Neaderthal.
How do you define equal progress?
This is just me...
If Player A wants to raid all the time, and they get gear that helps them raid, more power to 'em. Gear helps them raid.
If Player B wants to PvP all the time, and he gets gear that helps him in PvP, more power to 'em. Gear helps 'em PvP.
Player C doesnt raid, so but his gear is good enough to handle all the PvE content non-raid. Not gimped, not hurt, he's got what works for his playstyle.
Player A will have better Raid Gear than Player B, Player B will have better PvP gear than Player A.
Personally, that sure seems like a fairly equal way for people to progress. Get gear that helps, thru playing the part of the game that they enjoy. You know...allowing the game to have 2 seperate paths, and folks to be equal in each of those paths.
Would you please put a link up to where you read this???? I just got done reading an article that said raid stuff will not be any better than crafted. In fact it said crafted will be more customizable to certain situations than raid dropped stuff. I will try and find a link to where I read that.
And to the people who bring up the fact that items will have both PvP and PvE stats on them I would like to point out that ALL items will have PvP stats. That doesn't mean that raid drops will have crap stats for PvP. That's just the wishfull thinking assumption that a lot of people made up in their own minds.
Add to that the fact that the best crafting materials will come from raids (I would bet both nuts and 50,000 dollars on this) and the end result is that even if crafted items are better for PvP you will still have to grind raids to get the gems and other materials to make those items.
When you push aside all the BS the fact remains that there has to be a powerfull motivation for people to raid or nobody would put themselves through that unbearable hell. The AoC devs know this and have alluded to this fact themselves. So keep telling yourselves that raiding won't confer any advantage if you like but you're just being suckers if you fall for this crap in yet another game.
Once again, why is it unbearable hell to raid? How do you get these ideas? Do you dislike talking to other people over Vent? Perhaps you hate it when you accomplish something new in the game? Is it really so bad to have to coordinate with others, listen to them, and follow orders, instead of doing your own thing no matter what?What part of raiding is this unbearable hell?
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson
Neanderthal at his best
It's not something he read, it's his personal crusade that he's been on for months and months now. He had the same conversation with Athelan 7 months ago on these forums, has his question directly answered, and is still trying to find ways to make his self admitted paranoid fear factual. Read what he says, he made up his mind long ago that AoC was going to be another gear grindfest, and he needs to justify that point of view.
Here is the interview I'm guessing you read that pretty much says what Athelan said 7 months ago: TTH-All about items
The reason for this I suppose is (according to some people in beta) that they have not fully implemented and tested the end game PvP combat systems yet so they are making sure they at least have some end game content even if its only PvE Raids for release.
"BTW, to all the haters - raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs. Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids. So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? "
omg yes please read that. read it over and over again till u realize u wana play counterstrike instead and stop trying to screw around with the fundamentals of the MMORPG template. WoW has 10million subscribers now? what do u think works for MMORPGs.