Just out of curiosity, if the end game isn't raiding, what could it be?
I mean, I'm not saying that raiding is the only option for end-game, but of all the complaints I've heard about raiding, I've never really heard a cogent recitation of what the alternative should be.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Do you remember the last time you had this discussion with Athelan? Your contention was that PvP gear was going to be had by grinding PvE? Do you remember what Athelan said very clearly to you? "The most powerful PvP items will be resultant from PvP quite simple. There is no reason for us to put them in the PvE areas for example since we have the dual layer system." So which part is wishful thinking? What evidence do you have that suddenly the path has changed and the good PvP items will suddenly be dropping via PvE? I mean, at the point Athelan said that, you pretty much admitted that you are paranoid about the game being PvE-Raid Centric and that you were convinced that AoC was going to be a raid grinding/gimped. Feel free to refresh yourself Tell you what, to make it fair, why dont you explain your philosophy to folks, and then see how much credence they give to your point of view. You wont trade, do anything with a PvE Raider. You want to "progress" equally to them? Do you have a definition of what equal progress is at that point? What evidence makes you think that you cant accomplish any part of the PvE content in AoC short of raid content? You know, the content you dont want to feel obligated to do. So you are against the idea that a PvE Raider is going to get gear that, *gasp*, is going to help him progress thru PvE raids! That somehow impinges on your progress? But wait, you arent progressing down that path...hmmm A PvE Raider gets gear that helps him progress in PvE, helps him in "his PvE World, has some benefit in other places" A PvPer gets gear that helps him in "his world" more, but has some benefit in other places. Someone who doesnt do either doesnt have a set that helps him excel.... Do you see that as a PvE-centric grind game? Did you read: http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/21108 ? Which is nearly the exact info you were given seven months ago. No offense, I've thought you've made some good points in the past, but this crusade right now borders on the ridiculous, as you seem to be really reaching so you either have a reason to dislike the game, or because you desperately want to be right.
ooooooo I smell burning.... someone just got owned.
In the most recent info released, they said very clearly that there are two stats on every weapon--one for pvp, one for pve. They also said that only crafted items have slots, up to four each, for jewels which will customize the power of the weapon.
The more there is to do in the game, the better--as long as each is implemented properly for its target audience.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
Do you remember the last time you had this discussion with Athelan? Your contention was that PvP gear was going to be had by grinding PvE? Do you remember what Athelan said very clearly to you? "The most powerful PvP items will be resultant from PvP quite simple. There is no reason for us to put them in the PvE areas for example since we have the dual layer system."
If that's the most damning post of mine you could find on this forum then I don't feel too bad because I've been flamed pretty hard at times and I know there have been a few occassions when I found it difficult to avoid responding to the personal insult baiting. If you read the following posts you will see that he refused to answer my question of how they were going to accomplish that. I knew the blood money system wouldn't work when I first heard about it because it would be too easily exploited.
Something you need to understand about developers is that they have a vested interest in attracting as many players as possible. So they generally try to make it sound like their game will be all things to all people. They want us to believe that they can please all the people all the time. But most sensible folks will realize that this is not possible.
It's true that I don't trust the hype that comes from developers and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I AM paranoid that they will mislead people. The question is: Am I paranoid enough?
But the purpose of this thread wasn't really to rehash all those old arguments. I was just wondering if, in light of the new information, some of the people who argued with me in the past were starting to doubt their own beliefs about what they thought the game would be. So far it seems that the faithfull are still true believers.
Also, maybe I'm just altruistic. I want to save people from that pissed off feeling they will get if they have to find out the hard way that I'm right about this game (I'm talking about the people who don't want to get sucked into another raid-fest). But I also have a bit of a mean streak in me and I'll be the first to laugh post-release when the howls of protest go up from the people who failed to heed the warning signs.
I don't know man, it's so f-ed up the way history repeats itself. I went through this exact same thing with WoW. I saw what it was going to be and I warned people, only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. I guess WoW has improved things some but a lot of people could have saved themselves a lot of anger if they had just waited a little while before they started playing it.
Just out of curiosity, if the end game isn't raiding, what could it be? I mean, I'm not saying that raiding is the only option for end-game, but of all the complaints I've heard about raiding, I've never really heard a cogent recitation of what the alternative should be.
Well, in theory, in the perfect MMORPG, you'd never HIT the "end game", there'd always be more content to explore and conquer. However, content creation always lags behind people's content beating.
The only way to really know how the released game will be is to play it. Anything else is speculation and drivel.
That is certainly NOT true. Developers can give out good information, like in this case. Do you actually doubt that there will be 8 raids at the end game?
The only way to really know how the released game will be is to play it. Anything else is speculation and drivel.
That is certainly NOT true. Developers can give out good information, like in this case. Do you actually doubt that there will be 8 raids at the end game?
He is very correct, knowledge is never a good substitute for first hand experience. A dev can tell you that there are 8 raid isntances, but that does nothing to tell you how they feel, play etc.
Kind of like sex, I can tell you what its like but until you do it yourself, you just wont really no. I bet half the posters here wont understand that analogy either. Maybe thats real root of the problem.
Originally posted by Neanderthal I don't know man, it's so f-ed up the way history repeats itself. I went through this exact same thing with WoW. I saw what it was going to be and I warned people, only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. I guess WoW has improved things some but a lot of people could have saved themselves a lot of anger if they had just waited a little while before they started playing it.
Why do you need to warn people about anything? Are you some internet celebrity or authority that thinks they have the right to tell us how to worship our MMO gods? No. Just go play what you like, and let other people play what they like.
And you still don't know what you're talking about because the game isn't out yet. There's only one perspective and one truth you can believe: your own. I'm not meaning to be hostile, everyone gets an opinion, but just because they're putting raids into the game for folks that like that, doesn't really mean shit. I believe what I play, and don't need to be warned by anyone. If the game ends up having raids coming out of it's behind like a mofo, but there are still enough tools and content to enjoy the RP experience, then I'll be as happy as a pig in poop.
With the new information coming out are you starting to see the writting on the wall? Are you at least starting to doubt your certainty that I and a few others were wrong when we said this game would be an item-centric raid fest? Some of you will remember the long, long arguments we had on this subject on this board. I mostly remember Aelfin and Sturmrabe being the most vocal in saying we were wrong. But there were others too. So I'm just wondering if your certainty is begining to waver. I could dig up some of the info I've read recently but I'm going to assume that you've all read it already. I'll just sum things up a little. There will be at least eight raid dungeons in the game AT RELEASE. Each of those will have three tiers. To move on to the second tier of any raid you will first have to beat one of the 1st tiers and you will need to equip your guild members with 1st tier items before you'll have a chance at beating a 2nd tier of a dungeon. Equiping everyone will mean repeatedly running 1st tiers to get drops for everyone. Then you will move on to the 2nd tiers of the dungeons and go through the same process again, upgrading your items so you can move on to the 3rd tiers. Starting to sound painfully familiar? Raid grinding anyone? If I remember right they said it will take something like 3 hours to beat a dungeon which I assume means 3 hours for a tier. And of course they are going to give the most unrealistically optomistic number they possibly can so I think it's safe to assume that in reality it will probably be more like 5-6 hours per raid per tier, and that's probably only if everything goes really well. And then, being wildly optomistic, you will have to run that same raid at least 24 times to equip everyone in your raid group and that's assuming that you only have 24 people in your guild to equip. And then, you will most likely need equipment from each of the first tiers before you can move on to a second tier so after you raid that one tier of that one dungeon at least 24 times you still have 7 other 1st tiers to raid at least 24 times before you will move on to the 2nd tiers. Ugg. So this isn't going to be a raiding game, huh? It's not going to be item-centric? Then what is this all about? Just get real here for a minute and ask yourself why they would put all this in, why they would go to the trouble to set up this huge raiding time sink if there were really any viable alternative to it. Athelan said himself that nobody would raid if they could get the same rewards some other way. Ok, I still can't prove concisively that I'm right and this game will revolve around PvE raiding. But does anyone really still want to argue that it won't be? I stand by my long held position that people who don't want to play another raid-fest game should stay away from AoC. And that's not a slam against the game. It will be what it will be, that doesn't mean it will be a bad game. It just means that it will be a bad game for people who don't want to devote their lives to raiding. If anyone still doubts what the end-game will be like in AoC I think they are being foolish. I still can't prove that I was right....what, two years ago? At least that long. I still have to fall back on the statement that time will tell. But unless you're in denial you should be starting to see the writting on the wall.
the problem on the "item-centric" game is, for me, the problem on the characters. I think this happens on WoW, cause the development of the character is the same for all. Faar away from the flame, when I played wow I found almost all the characters "near the same", with almost no customization. This makes that the only difference relays on the gear.
If the game got a good development on characters and you got the option to "choose" one gear or another, but all balanced, then, there is no a "item-centric", cause everyone will look for the items that better fits their gameplay.
Originally posted by Neanderthal I don't know man, it's so f-ed up the way history repeats itself. I went through this exact same thing with WoW. I saw what it was going to be and I warned people, only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. I guess WoW has improved things some but a lot of people could have saved themselves a lot of anger if they had just waited a little while before they started playing it.
Why do you need to warn people about anything? Are you some internet celebrity or authority that thinks they have the right to tell us how to worship our MMO gods? No. Just go play what you like, and let other people play what they like.
And you still don't know what you're talking about because the game isn't out yet. There's only one perspective and one truth you can believe: your own. I'm not meaning to be hostile, everyone gets an opinion, but just because they're putting raids into the game for folks that like that, doesn't really mean shit. I believe what I play, and don't need to be warned by anyone. If the game ends up having raids coming out of it's behind like a mofo, but there are still enough tools and content to enjoy the RP experience, then I'll be as happy as a pig in poop.
Whats even more funny is that he admitted to his doom and gloom behavior with WOW as well.
I think 10 million subscribers just said your opinion was not quite accurate there Neanderthal.
Opinions are fine when they are presented as opinions and not gospel, but why is everyone acting so independent about thier "opinions" and yet refuse to make thier own minds up a game. Rather ironic.
Okay, I suppose you deserve a response, and I'll soft soap it for you to make it a bit easier to take.
1) Finding damning posts you've made really isnt worth wasting the time, if anyone wants to, it's easy to see you've made up your mind, and you've been expressing that, in the face of anything anyone has said. You KNOW that your right, information at hand be damned. You've asked your questions, and you had a very frank answer, you wanted clear, you got it. I read the entire thread, and frankly I agree with Athelan, why on earth should he give you every answer, you asked a question, he answered it, and you wanted more. No offense, but why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?
2) I'm well aware of how developers give answers to build hype, it's nice how you assume that you are the only one astue enough to pick up on things like that. It's still pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you asked a question, got answered, have ZERO in the way of hard fact to support your opinion 7 months later, and STILL try to present your opinion as to be factually supported. How does that work exactly? Seems like you want us to believe your smoke and mirrors hypothesis for no reason, other than you think it works. Isnt that what you are trying to suggest developers do? Odd you'd take the same tact, but instead of fact, you try to convice us your unsupported opinion is the equal to fact.
3) I suppose we should all bow down to the altruistic and benevolent Neanderthal, who's purpose on the forums is to expose devs and games for what they really are, because Neanderthal knows best? Stow it please. No offense, I'd much rather believe someone who has some facts, and presents a clear, and reasonble point of view, even if they have an underlying reason to convince me, than the viewpoint of someone who is so full of themself that they just expect people to listen to 'em, even when they factually have no support for their point of view. You want an exaple? You mentioned that PvP stats were no big deal, because all items will have PvP stats, even PvE items. Wow, that's profound! Deep thinking! Convincing almost! Of course when you tag on the idea that PvP items will have better PvP stats (even if they have PvE stats too!), and PvE items will have better PvE stats (even if they have PvP stats too!) Now, I can point back to that clear concise statement, that PvP items will drop in PvP areas, I can point to the recent interview that confirms that, still, 7 months later. What exactly supports your opinion again, factually speaking?
My point of view if fairly simple. The path that Funcom is walking, certainly leads to a place where it is "possible" that they can achieve real equality for people who prefer different styles of play, perhaps more than any other game. I dont see any reason to doubt that isnt possible, heck, dev comments and interviews actually support that. Is it possible it wont work out, or they'll bork it completely? Absolutely! Of course we keep coming back to evidence, and frankly, the preponderance of evidence goes the other route.
It is amusing that you are ready and willing to sit and wait for the howls of protest if what you suggest comes true. That people did not heed the Prophet of Doom, Neanderthal. I'm sure you'll enjoy your moment in the sun. Dont let facts, information, anything get in the way of your pre-conceived notions, keep on truckin'! Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!
Okay, I suppose you deserve a response, and I'll soft soap it for you to make it a bit easier to take.
1) Finding damning posts you've made really isnt worth wasting the time, if anyone wants to, it's easy to see you've made up your mind, and you've been expressing that, in the face of anything anyone has said. You KNOW that your right, information at hand be damned. You've asked your questions, and you had a very frank answer, you wanted clear, you got it. I read the entire thread, and frankly I agree with Athelan, why on earth should he give you every answer, you asked a question, he answered it, and you wanted more. No offense, but why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?
2) I'm well aware of how developers give answers to build hype, it's nice how you assume that you are the only one astue enough to pick up on things like that. It's still pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you asked a question, got answered, have ZERO in the way of hard fact to support your opinion 7 months later, and STILL try to present your opinion as to be factually supported. How does that work exactly? Seems like you want us to believe your smoke and mirrors hypothesis for no reason, other than you think it works. Isnt that what you are trying to suggest developers do? Odd you'd take the same tact, but instead of fact, you try to convice us your unsupported opinion is the equal to fact.
3) I suppose we should all bow down to the altruistic and benevolent Neanderthal, who's purpose on the forums is to expose devs and games for what they really are, because Neanderthal knows best? Stow it please. No offense, I'd much rather believe someone who has some facts, and presents a clear, and reasonble point of view, even if they have an underlying reason to convince me, than the viewpoint of someone who is so full of themself that they just expect people to listen to 'em, even when they factually have no support for their point of view. You want an exaple? You mentioned that PvP stats were no big deal, because all items will have PvP stats, even PvE items. Wow, that's profound! Deep thinking! Convincing almost! Of course when you tag on the idea that PvP items will have better PvP stats (even if they have PvE stats too!), and PvE items will have better PvE stats (even if they have PvP stats too!) Now, I can point back to that clear concise statement, that PvP items will drop in PvP areas, I can point to the recent interview that confirms that, still, 7 months later. What exactly supports your opinion again, factually speaking?
My point of view if fairly simple. The path that Funcom is walking, certainly leads to a place where it is "possible" that they can achieve real equality for people who prefer different styles of play, perhaps more than any other game. I dont see any reason to doubt that isnt possible, heck, dev comments and interviews actually support that. Is it possible it wont work out, or they'll bork it completely? Absolutely! Of course we keep coming back to evidence, and frankly, the preponderance of evidence goes the other route.
It is amusing that you are ready and willing to sit and wait for the howls of protest if what you suggest comes true. That people did not heed the Prophet of Doom, Neanderthal. I'm sure you'll enjoy your moment in the sun. Dont let facts, information, anything get in the way of your pre-conceived notions, keep on truckin'! Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!
Well said, and its heartwarming to know not every gamer out there is a sheep following the proverbial herd.
I don't know about the OP and the history of his argument but if he's right, I'm gutted.
I don't like raiding at all because I find it very boring and as I don't get to play for long periods, I find it hard to fit in too. I do like PvP though and I hope the OP is incorrect is his assessment of the new information coming out.
I'm looking forward to top notch PvP in AoC and as long as Funcom make that available, I'll be happy; raids or no raids. If they do implement decent PvP (i.e. not the very limited rubbish in WoW) I think that will pull a lot of disenchanted folks away from WoW, etc.
However, the WoW formula clearly works and tempting though it may be for companies to try and copy the WoW model, I think they'll lose players due to lack of originality if they clone it too faithfully.
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Well i think thast this has just about put the last nail in the coffin , if you like pvp play war, if you like pve play Aoc ... or WoW.
Or play real pvp games like CS or TF2 or even WW2 Online or Planetside.
But then you couldn't grief .
Hmm, you seem to be under the misconception that pvp = fps.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW. If you look at their craftign system i think it sounds good i see they took a page from mythic and DAOC and allowed items to have 4 slots you can add stats to player made equipment.
However, at the end of the day you'll need one set for pve and one for pvp (if what EVERY poster talkin gabout this claims is true and well that is almost 100% wowish , thank god WAR is one single game and not two glued together, aka wow aka AOC.)
PS . i know i am expanding the reality of this situation however, what i am saying is not inncorrect. So you should think about it instead of just fanboying it up. Personal these ideas and systems sounds awful. If you think they sounds good , thats cool. However, at the same time do go play wow becuase WoW is currently doing this very same thing. I guess AOC still has boobs and its combat (which you can hope will be a positive thing).
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Well i think thast this has just about put the last nail in the coffin , if you like pvp play war, if you like pve play Aoc ... or WoW.
Or play real pvp games like CS or TF2 or even WW2 Online or Planetside.
But then you couldn't grief .
Hmm, you seem to be under the misconception that pvp = fps.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW. If you look at their craftign system i think it sounds good i see they took a page from mythic and DAOC and allowed items to have 4 slots you can add stats to player made equipment.
However, at the end of the day you'll need one set for pve and one for pvp (if what EVERY poster talkin gabout this claims is true and well that is almost 100% wowish , thank god WAR is one single game and not two glued together, aka wow aka AOC.)
PS . i know i am expanding the reality of this situation however, what i am saying is not inncorrect. So you should think about it instead of just fanboying it up. Personal these ideas and systems sounds awful. If you think they sounds good , thats cool. However, at the same time do go play wow becuase WoW is currently doing this very same thing. I guess AOC still has boobs and its combat (which you can hope will be a positive thing).
I don't think it's fair to equate PvP to FPS everytime either. For me, FPS PvP is quite dull and doesn't require the same skill set as MMO PvP. Reactions seem to play a big part in FPS and since mine are crap, I prefer MMO combat.
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I actually prefer FPS combat,,,,but only in FPS games.
MMO combat also comes with a massive world and like....stuff. Since I happen to be a fan of aforementioned stuff, I always defect to MMO PvP.
As far as Item needs....we'll I guess you can just go make an MMO with nothing but fist combat. Because otherwise, games need items. Items gotta come from somewhere. To appeal to the largest mass of players...a crafting based MMO ain't gonna cut it most likely. I suspect AoC is trying to appeal to a very large mass.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW.
WoW can't really make the claim for equal progression, considering that you can essentially fail your way to most pieces of the S3 arena PVP gear and semi/AFK grind the enirety of the battle-ground honor rewards.
Bit different from repeatedly running raid dungeons for months to complete attunements and gear up for the next PVE level. Not to mention having to grind consumables and repair costs.
WoW approaches end-game from a "PVE = hardcore, PVP = casual" viewpoint; I'm very interested in seeing how other games cater for both tastes and what measure they can put in place to make ensure equal progression.
I don't think arguing over this has any point. I don't think we achieve anything in quablling over this. You're not gonna solely convince ppl to stay away from AoC, theyre gonna want to try it themselves. They will then make a judgement of the game. Or they will read reviews after the game has released.
Mind you, i think raiding is great. the awesome thing about AoC is that it is trying to take the best aspects of the MMORPG genre and put it into one game. And in my opinion, pre-TBC raiding in WoW was the best part of the game. It was bloody brilliant, so i have no complaints.
Copy from one, it's plagiarism; Copy from many, it's research
I don't think arguing over this has any point. I don't think we achieve anything in quablling over this. You're not gonna solely convince ppl to stay away from AoC, theyre gonna want to try it themselves. They will then make a judgement of the game. Or they will read reviews after the game has released.
QFT
I think it silly how many people on these forums continue to try and make a game look bad (that goes for AoC fans towards WAR as well as vice versa, mind you), while a person should simply know that each and every one of us has to find out for themselves if they want to play a game.
Of course we can voice concerns and ask questions, but the form this takes on these forums is simply just open hostility between fans of games, trying to bash each others heads in and drag the other game through the mud, which is just....childish.
But hey...I keep laughing about most of those posts, so please, feel free to continue the bashing. ^_^
I skimmed though much of the posting here and so I am not one hundred percent sure that my point of view has not already been covered, so if it has excuse my post.
I am not here to flame. It is just that I am assuming that the OP and I are talking about the same bit of new information and that we might have different opinions on what it means. Here is the bit of information in question from the most recent Press Event Report
Raids
Before I get ahead of myself, maybe we should spend a little bit of time talking about raids:
The folks at Funcom have told us that there will be 8 raids at launch with somewhere around 19 raid encounters (bosses) between them. These raids are intended for characters who have passed the level 80 barrier and are looking for something new.
Conan’s raids will be divided into three tiers. Tier One raids have no restrictions to entry, which in order to access any of the Tier Two raids, you will have had to complete at least one of the Tier One raids. Tier Three, as I understand it, is the most restricted of all, requiring players to have completed all of the Tier Two raids before they can enter.
Raids are designed for groups of 24, and are estimated to take somewhere between two and three hours to complete.
That isn’t to say though that the game won’t have smaller group instances for characters of lower level, but the hardcore raids are meant for the top of the heap.
My take on this was not along the lines of "your entire team must be fully geared with Tier one raid loot to go to a tier two dungeon"
After re-reading this excerpt my opinion of what was said in the press event was more along the lines of a "keying" rather than a "omg I have to be geared" concept. I take it to mean what it says
My Character can get into any Tier One Dungeon without having been to any previoud Dungeon
My Character can get into any Tier Two Dungeon after successfully defeating at least one Tier One Dungeon
My Character can get into any Tier Three Dungeon after successfully defeating all Tier Two Dungeons.
While I am certain that these Dungeons will most likely be progressively harder as the Tiers progress there was no indication that everyone in your raid would have to be fully geared in previous Tier Armor to successfully defeat the next Tier.
It says above that there will be 8 raids at launch with somewhere around 19 raid encounters (bosses) between them That means that each raid will have no more than 2-3 boss encounters per raid. I seriously doubt they plan on you running your team through this many times before you move to the next raid that only has 2-3 boss encounters.
...from all the stuff that i saw (video's and articles) it was pretty obvious there was gonna be some dungeons and grouping which means gear is involved. whether this is for endgame or not or if its just the standard dungeons leading up to max level who knows. but its fairly obvious gear plays some part (maybe not as much as WoW)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I will definitely buy this game, play it , and make up my own opinions. That being said, what has been revealed today is very disappointing.
It sounds like they are aiming for a hardcore game. If the game is laggy and hardcore, then AOC is about to learn a very expensive lesson.
What info are you talking about? I was searching the sites and didn#t find new info revealed. Well, except the Oslo Report, but that was all in the writeups already, so not really new.
Also, I'm amused at the way people go back and forth about this game. Some people refer to their NDA breaker friends saying the game will be a item-centric grindfest, others say the exact opposite, also referring to beta-testers. *chuckle* I'm glad I got my book. ^_^
Hmm, you seem to be under the misconception that pvp = fps.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW. If you look at their craftign system i think it sounds good i see they took a page from mythic and DAOC and allowed items to have 4 slots you can add stats to player made equipment. However, at the end of the day you'll need one set for pve and one for pvp (if what EVERY poster talkin gabout this claims is true and well that is almost 100% wowish , thank god WAR is one single game and not two glued together, aka wow aka AOC.) PS . i know i am expanding the reality of this situation however, what i am saying is not inncorrect. So you should think about it instead of just fanboying it up. Personal these ideas and systems sounds awful. If you think they sounds good , thats cool. However, at the same time do go play wow becuase WoW is currently doing this very same thing. I guess AOC still has boobs and its combat (which you can hope will be a positive thing).
The problem with MMORPG PvP is that it isn't about skill for the most part. Having 5 friends with you all level 60 and killing some level 5 newbie isn't skill. Items/level make a big (dare I say, gigantic) difference in most MMORPG PvP.
I pvp'd quite a bit in WoW, both battlegrounds and open pvp on open pvp servers. Most of the time in the open PvP servers, you couldn't have a fair fight. It happened, but rarely. But death didn't mean very much in WoW, so it wasn't a huge deal. Still had the odd griefers running around ganking people, but it wasn't too bad.
But as the cost of death goes up, so does the grief factor. People will no longer engage in even remotely fair fights. If their chance of winning isn't 99.99999999%, they run away. Is that fun? Is that skill? Nope. Not even remotely. I know I know, everyone will say they fight the close fights all the time. But outside of battlegrounds and WoW where the death penalty is small, I've been in precisely ZERO fights in games like Shadowbane, L2, Eve, DAOC, AO and now most recently PotBS where I had a chance to win if I was outnumbered/outleveled. ZERO. Either you are in a gank squad roaming around looking for lone victims, or you are a lone victim.
So, MMORPG isn't about skill, its about levels/gear/numbers. Utterly boring to be on the winning side as your foe never stood a chance, and utterly frustrating to be on the losing side, because you never had a chance. I'd rather try to sneak up on a Tiger tank in my M10 or as a sapper if I want to test my skills.
Comments
Just out of curiosity, if the end game isn't raiding, what could it be?
I mean, I'm not saying that raiding is the only option for end-game, but of all the complaints I've heard about raiding, I've never really heard a cogent recitation of what the alternative should be.
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im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
Nice post Baikal.
In the most recent info released, they said very clearly that there are two stats on every weapon--one for pvp, one for pve. They also said that only crafted items have slots, up to four each, for jewels which will customize the power of the weapon.
The more there is to do in the game, the better--as long as each is implemented properly for its target audience.
Apply lemon juice and candle flame here to reveal secret message.
If that's the most damning post of mine you could find on this forum then I don't feel too bad because I've been flamed pretty hard at times and I know there have been a few occassions when I found it difficult to avoid responding to the personal insult baiting. If you read the following posts you will see that he refused to answer my question of how they were going to accomplish that. I knew the blood money system wouldn't work when I first heard about it because it would be too easily exploited.
Something you need to understand about developers is that they have a vested interest in attracting as many players as possible. So they generally try to make it sound like their game will be all things to all people. They want us to believe that they can please all the people all the time. But most sensible folks will realize that this is not possible.
It's true that I don't trust the hype that comes from developers and I'm not ashamed to admit that. I AM paranoid that they will mislead people. The question is: Am I paranoid enough?
But the purpose of this thread wasn't really to rehash all those old arguments. I was just wondering if, in light of the new information, some of the people who argued with me in the past were starting to doubt their own beliefs about what they thought the game would be. So far it seems that the faithfull are still true believers.
Also, maybe I'm just altruistic. I want to save people from that pissed off feeling they will get if they have to find out the hard way that I'm right about this game (I'm talking about the people who don't want to get sucked into another raid-fest). But I also have a bit of a mean streak in me and I'll be the first to laugh post-release when the howls of protest go up from the people who failed to heed the warning signs.
I don't know man, it's so f-ed up the way history repeats itself. I went through this exact same thing with WoW. I saw what it was going to be and I warned people, only to be told I didn't know what I was talking about. I guess WoW has improved things some but a lot of people could have saved themselves a lot of anger if they had just waited a little while before they started playing it.
Well, in theory, in the perfect MMORPG, you'd never HIT the "end game", there'd always be more content to explore and conquer. However, content creation always lags behind people's content beating.
That is certainly NOT true. Developers can give out good information, like in this case. Do you actually doubt that there will be 8 raids at the end game?
I was going to play WAR, but the lack of a stealth class really turned me off.
I have always played a Ranger type. Ill give AoC a try first.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
That is certainly NOT true. Developers can give out good information, like in this case. Do you actually doubt that there will be 8 raids at the end game?
He is very correct, knowledge is never a good substitute for first hand experience. A dev can tell you that there are 8 raid isntances, but that does nothing to tell you how they feel, play etc.Kind of like sex, I can tell you what its like but until you do it yourself, you just wont really no. I bet half the posters here wont understand that analogy either. Maybe thats real root of the problem.
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Why do you need to warn people about anything? Are you some internet celebrity or authority that thinks they have the right to tell us how to worship our MMO gods? No. Just go play what you like, and let other people play what they like.
And you still don't know what you're talking about because the game isn't out yet. There's only one perspective and one truth you can believe: your own. I'm not meaning to be hostile, everyone gets an opinion, but just because they're putting raids into the game for folks that like that, doesn't really mean shit.
I believe what I play, and don't need to be warned by anyone. If the game ends up having raids coming out of it's behind like a mofo, but there are still enough tools and content to enjoy the RP experience, then I'll be as happy as a pig in poop.
the problem on the "item-centric" game is, for me, the problem on the characters. I think this happens on WoW, cause the development of the character is the same for all. Faar away from the flame, when I played wow I found almost all the characters "near the same", with almost no customization. This makes that the only difference relays on the gear.
If the game got a good development on characters and you got the option to "choose" one gear or another, but all balanced, then, there is no a "item-centric", cause everyone will look for the items that better fits their gameplay.
Why do you need to warn people about anything? Are you some internet celebrity or authority that thinks they have the right to tell us how to worship our MMO gods? No. Just go play what you like, and let other people play what they like.
And you still don't know what you're talking about because the game isn't out yet. There's only one perspective and one truth you can believe: your own. I'm not meaning to be hostile, everyone gets an opinion, but just because they're putting raids into the game for folks that like that, doesn't really mean shit.
I believe what I play, and don't need to be warned by anyone. If the game ends up having raids coming out of it's behind like a mofo, but there are still enough tools and content to enjoy the RP experience, then I'll be as happy as a pig in poop.
Whats even more funny is that he admitted to his doom and gloom behavior with WOW as well.I think 10 million subscribers just said your opinion was not quite accurate there Neanderthal.
Opinions are fine when they are presented as opinions and not gospel, but why is everyone acting so independent about thier "opinions" and yet refuse to make thier own minds up a game. Rather ironic.
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Okay, I suppose you deserve a response, and I'll soft soap it for you to make it a bit easier to take.
1) Finding damning posts you've made really isnt worth wasting the time, if anyone wants to, it's easy to see you've made up your mind, and you've been expressing that, in the face of anything anyone has said. You KNOW that your right, information at hand be damned. You've asked your questions, and you had a very frank answer, you wanted clear, you got it. I read the entire thread, and frankly I agree with Athelan, why on earth should he give you every answer, you asked a question, he answered it, and you wanted more. No offense, but why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?
2) I'm well aware of how developers give answers to build hype, it's nice how you assume that you are the only one astue enough to pick up on things like that. It's still pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you asked a question, got answered, have ZERO in the way of hard fact to support your opinion 7 months later, and STILL try to present your opinion as to be factually supported. How does that work exactly? Seems like you want us to believe your smoke and mirrors hypothesis for no reason, other than you think it works. Isnt that what you are trying to suggest developers do? Odd you'd take the same tact, but instead of fact, you try to convice us your unsupported opinion is the equal to fact.
3) I suppose we should all bow down to the altruistic and benevolent Neanderthal, who's purpose on the forums is to expose devs and games for what they really are, because Neanderthal knows best? Stow it please. No offense, I'd much rather believe someone who has some facts, and presents a clear, and reasonble point of view, even if they have an underlying reason to convince me, than the viewpoint of someone who is so full of themself that they just expect people to listen to 'em, even when they factually have no support for their point of view. You want an exaple? You mentioned that PvP stats were no big deal, because all items will have PvP stats, even PvE items. Wow, that's profound! Deep thinking! Convincing almost! Of course when you tag on the idea that PvP items will have better PvP stats (even if they have PvE stats too!), and PvE items will have better PvE stats (even if they have PvP stats too!) Now, I can point back to that clear concise statement, that PvP items will drop in PvP areas, I can point to the recent interview that confirms that, still, 7 months later. What exactly supports your opinion again, factually speaking?
My point of view if fairly simple. The path that Funcom is walking, certainly leads to a place where it is "possible" that they can achieve real equality for people who prefer different styles of play, perhaps more than any other game. I dont see any reason to doubt that isnt possible, heck, dev comments and interviews actually support that. Is it possible it wont work out, or they'll bork it completely? Absolutely! Of course we keep coming back to evidence, and frankly, the preponderance of evidence goes the other route.
It is amusing that you are ready and willing to sit and wait for the howls of protest if what you suggest comes true. That people did not heed the Prophet of Doom, Neanderthal. I'm sure you'll enjoy your moment in the sun. Dont let facts, information, anything get in the way of your pre-conceived notions, keep on truckin'! Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!
Okay, I suppose you deserve a response, and I'll soft soap it for you to make it a bit easier to take.
1) Finding damning posts you've made really isnt worth wasting the time, if anyone wants to, it's easy to see you've made up your mind, and you've been expressing that, in the face of anything anyone has said. You KNOW that your right, information at hand be damned. You've asked your questions, and you had a very frank answer, you wanted clear, you got it. I read the entire thread, and frankly I agree with Athelan, why on earth should he give you every answer, you asked a question, he answered it, and you wanted more. No offense, but why do you think that you (or anyone who asks) deserves all the answers?
2) I'm well aware of how developers give answers to build hype, it's nice how you assume that you are the only one astue enough to pick up on things like that. It's still pretty hard for me to take you seriously when you asked a question, got answered, have ZERO in the way of hard fact to support your opinion 7 months later, and STILL try to present your opinion as to be factually supported. How does that work exactly? Seems like you want us to believe your smoke and mirrors hypothesis for no reason, other than you think it works. Isnt that what you are trying to suggest developers do? Odd you'd take the same tact, but instead of fact, you try to convice us your unsupported opinion is the equal to fact.
3) I suppose we should all bow down to the altruistic and benevolent Neanderthal, who's purpose on the forums is to expose devs and games for what they really are, because Neanderthal knows best? Stow it please. No offense, I'd much rather believe someone who has some facts, and presents a clear, and reasonble point of view, even if they have an underlying reason to convince me, than the viewpoint of someone who is so full of themself that they just expect people to listen to 'em, even when they factually have no support for their point of view. You want an exaple? You mentioned that PvP stats were no big deal, because all items will have PvP stats, even PvE items. Wow, that's profound! Deep thinking! Convincing almost! Of course when you tag on the idea that PvP items will have better PvP stats (even if they have PvE stats too!), and PvE items will have better PvE stats (even if they have PvP stats too!) Now, I can point back to that clear concise statement, that PvP items will drop in PvP areas, I can point to the recent interview that confirms that, still, 7 months later. What exactly supports your opinion again, factually speaking?
My point of view if fairly simple. The path that Funcom is walking, certainly leads to a place where it is "possible" that they can achieve real equality for people who prefer different styles of play, perhaps more than any other game. I dont see any reason to doubt that isnt possible, heck, dev comments and interviews actually support that. Is it possible it wont work out, or they'll bork it completely? Absolutely! Of course we keep coming back to evidence, and frankly, the preponderance of evidence goes the other route.
It is amusing that you are ready and willing to sit and wait for the howls of protest if what you suggest comes true. That people did not heed the Prophet of Doom, Neanderthal. I'm sure you'll enjoy your moment in the sun. Dont let facts, information, anything get in the way of your pre-conceived notions, keep on truckin'! Seeing posts like this, and the holier, and smarter than thou attitudes are amsuing!
Well said, and its heartwarming to know not every gamer out there is a sheep following the proverbial herd.
Make your own mind up people.
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I don't know about the OP and the history of his argument but if he's right, I'm gutted.
I don't like raiding at all because I find it very boring and as I don't get to play for long periods, I find it hard to fit in too. I do like PvP though and I hope the OP is incorrect is his assessment of the new information coming out.
I'm looking forward to top notch PvP in AoC and as long as Funcom make that available, I'll be happy; raids or no raids. If they do implement decent PvP (i.e. not the very limited rubbish in WoW) I think that will pull a lot of disenchanted folks away from WoW, etc.
However, the WoW formula clearly works and tempting though it may be for companies to try and copy the WoW model, I think they'll lose players due to lack of originality if they clone it too faithfully.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Or play real pvp games like CS or TF2 or even WW2 Online or Planetside.
But then you couldn't grief
.
Hmm, you seem to be under the misconception that pvp = fps.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW. If you look at their craftign system i think it sounds good i see they took a page from mythic and DAOC and allowed items to have 4 slots you can add stats to player made equipment.
However, at the end of the day you'll need one set for pve and one for pvp (if what EVERY poster talkin gabout this claims is true and well that is almost 100% wowish , thank god WAR is one single game and not two glued together, aka wow aka AOC.)
PS . i know i am expanding the reality of this situation however, what i am saying is not inncorrect. So you should think about it instead of just fanboying it up. Personal these ideas and systems sounds awful. If you think they sounds good , thats cool. However, at the same time do go play wow becuase WoW is currently doing this very same thing. I guess AOC still has boobs and its combat (which you can hope will be a positive thing).
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Or play real pvp games like CS or TF2 or even WW2 Online or Planetside.
But then you couldn't grief
.
Hmm, you seem to be under the misconception that pvp = fps.
In re-gards to many of these post claim best pvp gear is from pvp, Wow can say the same can't it? (PS yes it can). Does that mean its not a raid grind for pve gear (oh no it is, heck so is the pvp gear). If you look at what is being reported as their end game pve system it is 100% long ass raids, JUST LIKE WOW. If you look at their craftign system i think it sounds good i see they took a page from mythic and DAOC and allowed items to have 4 slots you can add stats to player made equipment.
However, at the end of the day you'll need one set for pve and one for pvp (if what EVERY poster talkin gabout this claims is true and well that is almost 100% wowish , thank god WAR is one single game and not two glued together, aka wow aka AOC.)
PS . i know i am expanding the reality of this situation however, what i am saying is not inncorrect. So you should think about it instead of just fanboying it up. Personal these ideas and systems sounds awful. If you think they sounds good , thats cool. However, at the same time do go play wow becuase WoW is currently doing this very same thing. I guess AOC still has boobs and its combat (which you can hope will be a positive thing).
I don't think it's fair to equate PvP to FPS everytime either. For me, FPS PvP is quite dull and doesn't require the same skill set as MMO PvP. Reactions seem to play a big part in FPS and since mine are crap, I prefer MMO combat.
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
I actually prefer FPS combat,,,,but only in FPS games.
MMO combat also comes with a massive world and like....stuff. Since I happen to be a fan of aforementioned stuff, I always defect to MMO PvP.
As far as Item needs....we'll I guess you can just go make an MMO with nothing but fist combat. Because otherwise, games need items. Items gotta come from somewhere. To appeal to the largest mass of players...a crafting based MMO ain't gonna cut it most likely. I suspect AoC is trying to appeal to a very large mass.
WoW can't really make the claim for equal progression, considering that you can essentially fail your way to most pieces of the S3 arena PVP gear and semi/AFK grind the enirety of the battle-ground honor rewards.
Bit different from repeatedly running raid dungeons for months to complete attunements and gear up for the next PVE level. Not to mention having to grind consumables and repair costs.
WoW approaches end-game from a "PVE = hardcore, PVP = casual" viewpoint; I'm very interested in seeing how other games cater for both tastes and what measure they can put in place to make ensure equal progression.
I don't think arguing over this has any point. I don't think we achieve anything in quablling over this. You're not gonna solely convince ppl to stay away from AoC, theyre gonna want to try it themselves. They will then make a judgement of the game. Or they will read reviews after the game has released.
Mind you, i think raiding is great. the awesome thing about AoC is that it is trying to take the best aspects of the MMORPG genre and put it into one game. And in my opinion, pre-TBC raiding in WoW was the best part of the game. It was bloody brilliant, so i have no complaints.
Copy from one, it's plagiarism; Copy from many, it's research
I think it silly how many people on these forums continue to try and make a game look bad (that goes for AoC fans towards WAR as well as vice versa, mind you), while a person should simply know that each and every one of us has to find out for themselves if they want to play a game.
Of course we can voice concerns and ask questions, but the form this takes on these forums is simply just open hostility between fans of games, trying to bash each others heads in and drag the other game through the mud, which is just....childish.
But hey...I keep laughing about most of those posts, so please, feel free to continue the bashing. ^_^
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
I skimmed though much of the posting here and so I am not one hundred percent sure that my point of view has not already been covered, so if it has excuse my post.
I am not here to flame. It is just that I am assuming that the OP and I are talking about the same bit of new information and that we might have different opinions on what it means. Here is the bit of information in question from the most recent Press Event Report
Raids
Before I get ahead of myself, maybe we should spend a little bit of time talking about raids:
The folks at Funcom have told us that there will be 8 raids at launch with somewhere around 19 raid encounters (bosses) between them. These raids are intended for characters who have passed the level 80 barrier and are looking for something new.
Conan’s raids will be divided into three tiers. Tier One raids have no restrictions to entry, which in order to access any of the Tier Two raids, you will have had to complete at least one of the Tier One raids. Tier Three, as I understand it, is the most restricted of all, requiring players to have completed all of the Tier Two raids before they can enter.
Raids are designed for groups of 24, and are estimated to take somewhere between two and three hours to complete.
That isn’t to say though that the game won’t have smaller group instances for characters of lower level, but the hardcore raids are meant for the top of the heap.
My take on this was not along the lines of "your entire team must be fully geared with Tier one raid loot to go to a tier two dungeon"
After re-reading this excerpt my opinion of what was said in the press event was more along the lines of a "keying" rather than a "omg I have to be geared" concept. I take it to mean what it says
My Character can get into any Tier One Dungeon without having been to any previoud Dungeon
My Character can get into any Tier Two Dungeon after successfully defeating at least one Tier One Dungeon
My Character can get into any Tier Three Dungeon after successfully defeating all Tier Two Dungeons.
While I am certain that these Dungeons will most likely be progressively harder as the Tiers progress there was no indication that everyone in your raid would have to be fully geared in previous Tier Armor to successfully defeat the next Tier.
It says above that there will be 8 raids at launch with somewhere around 19 raid encounters (bosses) between them That means that each raid will have no more than 2-3 boss encounters per raid. I seriously doubt they plan on you running your team through this many times before you move to the next raid that only has 2-3 boss encounters.
I will definitely buy this game, play it , and make up my own opinions. That being said, what has been revealed today is very disappointing.
It sounds like they are aiming for a hardcore game. If the game is laggy and hardcore, then AOC is about to learn a very expensive lesson.
...from all the stuff that i saw (video's and articles) it was pretty obvious there was gonna be some dungeons and grouping which means gear is involved. whether this is for endgame or not or if its just the standard dungeons leading up to max level who knows. but its fairly obvious gear plays some part (maybe not as much as WoW)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Also, I'm amused at the way people go back and forth about this game. Some people refer to their NDA breaker friends saying the game will be a item-centric grindfest, others say the exact opposite, also referring to beta-testers. *chuckle* I'm glad I got my book. ^_^
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
The problem with MMORPG PvP is that it isn't about skill for the most part. Having 5 friends with you all level 60 and killing some level 5 newbie isn't skill. Items/level make a big (dare I say, gigantic) difference in most MMORPG PvP.
I pvp'd quite a bit in WoW, both battlegrounds and open pvp on open pvp servers. Most of the time in the open PvP servers, you couldn't have a fair fight. It happened, but rarely. But death didn't mean very much in WoW, so it wasn't a huge deal. Still had the odd griefers running around ganking people, but it wasn't too bad.
But as the cost of death goes up, so does the grief factor. People will no longer engage in even remotely fair fights. If their chance of winning isn't 99.99999999%, they run away. Is that fun? Is that skill? Nope. Not even remotely. I know I know, everyone will say they fight the close fights all the time. But outside of battlegrounds and WoW where the death penalty is small, I've been in precisely ZERO fights in games like Shadowbane, L2, Eve, DAOC, AO and now most recently PotBS where I had a chance to win if I was outnumbered/outleveled. ZERO. Either you are in a gank squad roaming around looking for lone victims, or you are a lone victim.
So, MMORPG isn't about skill, its about levels/gear/numbers. Utterly boring to be on the winning side as your foe never stood a chance, and utterly frustrating to be on the losing side, because you never had a chance. I'd rather try to sneak up on a Tiger tank in my M10 or as a sapper if I want to test my skills.