EVERY new MMORPG made by a company that has a name WILL be raid based and gear based. How many games will be made before people finally understand this. Let me ask you this.. Have there been any successful mmorpg (200K+ population) that have come out after World of Warcraft that have NOT been raid based?
CoX is not raid based and the raid they did put in which is no longer necessary in anyway was so roundly disliked they were forced by the players into giving equivalent small group content.
So there your raid premise have been disproven by example.
The gear stuff though is most likely impossible to get away from. Raiding however is far from necesaary and in fact it can be quite harmful.
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
From the dev chat logs and the report from Caroline Koh for mmorpg.com Am I right in thinking that the best gear comes from city sieging and that city sieging could be split up into 5 instances? whats the difference from doing 5 instances in RvR to doing 5 dungeon raids for best gear? its still a timesink just like raiding, except in city sieging your be fighting NPC's too right?
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Definately not. Its got nothing to do with twitch at all.
I am going off a recent press report / write up, and a dev chat log and trying to make sense of it.
There is not point saying go to WoW or AoC or wherever because you couldn't answer my question, doesn't help anyone, does it.
What im trying to get clarification from is that I want to have the best stuff at some point during my gaming time with warhammer. It has been said that city sieging will give some lucky players the chance to get the "best" item drops. It has been reported that in a city siege (where you get the best items) there will be multiple "instanced" area's maybe "up to 5". For me to go thru all of this to get a "piece" of gear and then repeat all this again to get extra parts is a timesink just like a hard raid right...
2 points I want to make are:
1. How is this different from a long drawn out raid?
2, Will i have the ability to craft an equivilent "best" item in the game, instead of having to go thru all this to get the "best" items?
I think they are vaild questions, and just prove another point when the fans of the game say - war wont have raiding like WoW to get the best items. When infact it does but in a different form for me.
And im sorry but for me 40% is a hefty chunk - im not the best in pvp so i'll take all i can get thank you very much. People will still want to "best" its natural to want it just as much as wanting extra levels.
Sorry no one could answer this or clarify a bit more for me. I'll keep watching and waiting for game updates in this area. hoping it will change.
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
This game is not gear based, and if you formulated your opinion of your game while reading this thread you are making a terrible mistake. Regardless, if you don't want to play, have fun elsewhere.
From the dev chat logs and the report from Caroline Koh for mmorpg.com Am I right in thinking that the best gear comes from city sieging and that city sieging could be split up into 5 instances? whats the difference from doing 5 instances in RvR to doing 5 dungeon raids for best gear? its still a timesink just like raiding, except in city sieging your be fighting NPC's too right?
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Definately not. Its got nothing to do with twitch at all.
I am going off a recent press report / write up, and a dev chat log and trying to make sense of it.
There is not point saying go to WoW or AoC or wherever because you couldn't answer my question, doesn't help anyone, does it.
What im trying to get clarification from is that I want to have the best stuff at some point during my gaming time with warhammer. It has been said that city sieging will give some lucky players the chance to get the "best" item drops. It has been reported that in a city siege (where you get the best items) there will be multiple "instanced" area's maybe "up to 5". For me to go thru all of this to get a "piece" of gear and then repeat all this again to get extra parts is a timesink just like a hard raid right...
2 points I want to make are:
1. How is this different from a long drawn out raid?
2, Will i have the ability to craft an equivilent "best" item in the game, instead of having to go thru all this to get the "best" items?
I think they are vaild questions, and just prove another point when the fans of the game say - war wont have raiding like WoW to get the best items. When infact it does but in a different form for me.
And im sorry but for me 40% is a hefty chunk - im not the best in pvp so i'll take all i can get thank you very much. People will still want to "best" its natural to want it just as much as wanting extra levels.
Sorry no one could answer this or clarify a bit more for me. I'll keep watching and waiting for game updates in this area. hoping it will change.
They've gotten rid of the 'multiple' instances, unless you count the initial instance to open the city gates. The beginning part of the siege is an instance (or atleast it was the last time they talked about it), then there's open RvR, PQ's, AND of course dungeons (no word on if they're instanced dungeons or just big areas with more PQ's I'm hoping for PQ's they seem way more fun than dungeons & pve raids) that are only open to you when you have control of the enemy's city. Sieges are going to be constant, maybe not every day but very constant.
The whole point of all the Realm points your side collects through out all the Teirs for PvE & RvR and other various actions is that reaching the maximum realm points opens up the chance to siege (once the siege is over those realm points reset so both realms have return to the struggle of war!). If you succeed in the initial siege you continue on into the city. Here you have your choice of anywhere you want to go and the more you do the better chances you have. Even so if I remember correctly the personal points you get through the activities passes over to the next time you siege so its not like you have to start fresh everytime (thank god or it'd suck to try and do PQ's and never get anything cause you never get to finish).
The thing with WoW raids is that the gear is extremely rare, you absoltuely have to be in a big guild to do it, you had to be really organized and plan and time things out. WAR's not taking this approach. In WAR you can join a guild but you don't HAVE to be in a guild to siege all you have to do is show up during the siege and rush in! Yes its the best gear and yes you'll probably have to participate multiple times to get all the peices but you won't be spending 4 to 5 hours a night for several long exhausting months trying to get everything. Nothing is ever handed to you on a perfect platter. You either spend time working on Sieges till you get everything you want or you spend time farming gold somewhere to buy the crafted items or the material to craft them. Either way you time sink. Just which one do you find more fun? Personally going and rampaging on someone city seems like a better way to spend my time.
Every game is a time sink...just logging on is a time sink. Its just nice when your time sink is entertaining, thats the reason we pay money right? To burn time and enjoy it.
Right now there's no word on crafting other than it'll be awsome. They also said they want what players craft to be equivalent or better than drop gear. Does this mean it'll be the absolute best? Dunno right now its all speculation.
I wish there was some way i could better answer your questions but other than the things ive read in newsletters, the herald, seen in the podcasts and various interviews i'm just as much in the dark as you are when it comes to the absolute final perfect answer. Until the NDA lifts or they come out and say it themselves your just going to get everyone's personal comprehended views from what we've seen and read.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
Erm no, rpg without gear is still nothing like an FPS, i m sorry if u think that way, u probably havent played any good rpgs. U still get stuns, stifles/powerblocks, snares, knockbacks, positional attacks, passive block and dodge (meaning u dnt have to bunny hop) and possibly alot more features which i dont remember right now. Now all those tools involve strategy, and that strategy leads to the action-reaction battle type rpgs are famous about, add to that the ability to develop your character with freedom to some extent in most games and there u have it. That is what an rpg is all about, in my eyes at least.
I still dont get the necessity to bring gear in that mix when it comes to pvp, a 10% difference i would understand, but a 40% would take alot of skill from my part to overcome. Plain and simple i dont like gear grinding, farming or w/e way u wanna put it. I m the type of guy who runs around in blue items (wow term) and relies on his skill to get the kill, because i dont liek to grind for better ones.
I hope the OP is wrong as a couple of people have pointed out, but if his words are true this game is not for me and there is seriously something wrong in the minds of the developers, pvp should only come down to skill......
Why is it that most people in this thread assume that unless you have the end all be all city siege gear that you are getting 0% stats from the tier 4 gear?
You will be pretty much given your standard gear set on a silver platter. The tier 5(City Siege gear) sets might only be 5% better. So really your complaining about the difference between the base tier 4 gear and the tier 5. The difference which is unknown at this juncture in time. You see a number like 40% and jump on it because it seems like a big percent. 40% of 0 is still 0.
In addition. WTF is wrong with people here? It isn't like gear is going to be hard to get. It isn't WoW where you need to do lvl 60 instances to do MC just to get to BWL and then into AQ40 and Naxx. OR for lvl 70: 70 instances->Heroics->Kara->Gruul/za->TK/SSC->MH->BT->SW.
To compare it to WoW it would be leveling to 70 and then doing ithe 5 man instances for gear. City sieges being more like Heroics. There isn't 4-5 tiers of gear at the endgame. There is the base tier 4 gear and the tier 5 gear.Thats how easy gear will be to get. If you can't stay competitive then you obviously play for 1hour a week, 2 weeks out of the month.
ALSO if you can't log in to participate in the free for all city raids and get gear then you've obviously done something terribly wrong. You're chances of getting gear are based on how much you participate. You don't have to be in the raid group, you don't have to be in a guild, You just show up and kill stuff. Is that to hard for you? I don't think it is.
Originally posted by Kill_trolls I grew up on old C=64, so maybe youngsters don't remember (or those older people who fail at Life), but game used to be played for FUN. Not to give yourself some importance like "look at me, im a loser in real life but at least im cool online because i Grinded". It's still the same with RTS and FPS games. ,
Commador 64s were cool but look at the first nes games that really started to popularize the video game. take a look at some of the first rpgs on it like dragon quest and adventure. The worst grinds ever.
The fact is you will have to grind becuase today doign quests are seen as grinding , pvp is seen as it , anythign you do repeditively is seen as a grind to most people. So unless you can make a game that has unlimited fresh and new combat, setting, spell s, abilities , etc. YOUR WRONG.
Now having said that GW is trash of an mmorpg, its and ok game but as a rpg it fails , why well you hardly really develop your toon. WoW at the RPG elements of the game does a better job than GW. Now i am not saying that GW is not a good MMO (which in a way its not at all an mmo), but what i am saying is the reason the GRIND is there is to allow you to take the time to develop your character. I miss the grind of old mmos , in WOW grinding exp only works for a few levels and i have to be in instances to do it. In GW i can make a pvp toon and hit max level just like that, you might find not leveling or developing your characters to be fun, however, really you should just call such a game and mmo adventure or hack-n-slash, or something , and really at this rate just play an fps.
Ill take the grind why? I loke d&d i like rpgs, i like developing my characters. Now id rather have it not be painful and i would like it to be purposeful . But ill take it becuase it makes a better game.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by Jetrpg Now having said that GW is trash of an mmorpg, its and ok game but as a rpg it fails Ill take the grind why? I loke d&d i like rpgs, i like developing my characters. Now id rather have it not be painful and i would like it to be purposeful . But ill take it becuase it makes a better game.
What you call "developing a game character" I call "numbing down of real person who plays the character".
I have nothing against your choice, as I have stated before. I know that all people are not equally smart on this planet, and seeing how many people like pure grind I have come to the conclusion that there are people who dunnot like being smart. Why else would someone exercise himself by doing intellectual stuff, and someone else dull himself by doing repetitive mindless work?
Also, I think you fail to understand the difference between PvE and PvP. My ideal of PvE is a combination of Guild Wars and Monkey Island for instance, but since I'm not a huge fan of PvE I will not go into discussing it. I do want to touch the aspect of PvP though. PvP is *not* about developing your character. PvP is not about "behold my stats, you puny mortal, and instantly die at the sight of them" or "behold my developed character, ye mortals who entered this arena". A developed character in PvP is not ingame character - it's the real player behind that character. He develops. In ideal PvE, it's the same. I want to roleplay in a way that my character is unique in what it does, how it looks, and abilities he has. But not in having *more* but in being *different*. That's the difference in WoW PvP and GW PvP. In GW PvP I have 8 skills, and these 8 skills can be very different than those skills others use, and still effective. In WoW, I only need to grind to lvl 999 and that's it. Where is roleplaying in that? How can I immerse myself in "must.... grind.... more... arm ... hurts..."?
Who developes by playing Monkey Island? The player. His experience. His thrill. Does Monkey Island have levels or XP or whatever? No. But you *are* roleplaying! This is the key thing here. Roleplaying got lost in ancient ages, and is clouded by grinding. Roleplaying is measured by immersion, not by grind stats. Now, I understand that multiplayer game would differ obviously but the point is made. RPG does not consist only and exclusively of grind. RPG means exactly that: roleplaying. Just because you're used to playing xy types of games and grew up grinding, doesn't mean that's all there is to RPG. It's like saying that soap operas or Danielle Steel novels are the only possible way to make tv series and write novels. They are not. You don't need to cry in soap operas, and feel depressed/bad. Yes, that's a possible way of immersion and "roleplaying" style but not the only one, not by a long shot.
Originally posted by Jetrpg Now having said that GW is trash of an mmorpg, its and ok game but as a rpg it fails Ill take the grind why? I loke d&d i like rpgs, i like developing my characters. Now id rather have it not be painful and i would like it to be purposeful . But ill take it becuase it makes a better game.
...
PvP is *not* about developing your character. PvP is not about "behold my stats, you puny mortal, and instantly die at the sight of them" or "behold my developed character, ye mortals who entered this arena". A developed character in PvP is not ingame character - it's the real player behind that character.
In WAr pvp does develop your character , and it did in daoc also. And people LIKED this about games.
In muds pvp develop[ed your characters (This was a way to equip yourself in most good muds. However, if you lost then your equip would start over from ground zero , but still character development via pvp is almost as old as pvp is , so once again its nice that you played a few games were pvp did not develop your characters , but i can say i have enjoyed those pvp system much less, and that is the general agreement for mmo and game players.)
Look at PS character development is 100% pvp , while its not the Best mmo it is the best mmofps to date.
So while you may not like the idea of character development via PvP, That is not only the plan for WAR but the reality.
" RPG means exactly that: roleplaying."
That right now i could just have all the best equip and max level character when i first log in, and roleplay it , but you know NO ONE WANTS TO DO THAT. If they did then games with no content would be super popular but they are not.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
a) but i can say i have enjoyed those pvp system much less, and that is the general agreement for mmo and game players.) b) That right now i could just have all the best equip and max level character when i first log in, and roleplay it , but you know NO ONE WANTS TO DO THAT. If they did then games with no content would be super popular but they are not.
a) That's exactly what I said, and the general agreement is that soap operas are the best type of tv-series, and folk music is best music. If majority wants it, that's fine. But I don't like how you use majority to support your claims as if that make them the best. It's argumentum ad populum.
b) I don't think you have carefully read what I wrote. It's not true that "no one wants to do that", because I already did give one example - Monkey Island. There is roleplaying, and you have max level char and best equip as soon as you login. And guess what, it was super popular. Also, I don't understand what you mean by the last sentence; I'm the one who is for more content. Grind doesn't make content. Grind makes you do the same thing infinitely, it's like trying to get Diablo's Zod rune (or whatever the name was). It's not content, it's excel sheet editing.
(I agreed with the rest you posted so didn't comment on that)
Damn i was worried Warhammer online would be item based...
I just quit WOW after two weeks along with my wife because of it being so item based we were unable to compete with all the uber epics and twinks...
A crafter should be able to make the very best stuff available, if not then why even craft in the first place...
I was already being turned off by the recent combat video, it had crap assed cookie cutter combat mechanics... run up and take turns swinging while you go make a sandwich.
The more i read about this game the more im turned off.
Damn i was worried Warhammer online would be item based... I just quit WOW after two weeks along with my wife because of it being so item based we were unable to compete with all the uber epics and twinks... A crafter should be able to make the very best stuff available, if not then why even craft in the first place... I was already being turned off by the recent combat video, it had crap assed cookie cutter combat mechanics... run up and take turns swinging while you go make a sandwich. The more i read about this game the more im turned off. Disappointing.
1. Who ever said that gear would be difficult to acquire in this game?
2. If you based your reading off of all these speculation and assumption posts then well...
3. Crafting has not been announced or discussed yet.
4. How many times must it be explained that the recent combat videos are done at conventions or were staged?
5. The game is in beta. Typically things change in beta.
This isnt meant to flame or target one person, but all these speculation/assumption threads are getting a little old people. One day you will have your answers by either getting in beta, when the NDA is released, or when EA/Mythic release the information, until then I suppose you all will continue with these pointless guessing games.
Edit: Oh, and Happy Valentines Day everyone!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Not sure what I was supposed to pay attention to... 40% is not 0% or anywhere near 0% and it is much closer to 70% then 0% so...huh? Call me crazy but I just want to play a game where all my gear is equal to those around me. Or at least give me the option of easily getting that armor like with all the classic MMORPGs we all have fond memories of. You'd buy it off some player who was really good at crafting armor. If a player kicked mine olde arse in ye olden games, then I'd bow to him in respect - he beat ME. It is a needless timesink and I for one am getting sick of seeing this crap in game development. Stop wasting our time, if you have a great end game (WARs big selling point) then give it to us fast and let us play as the game as it is supposed to be played. Leveling, kill X for Y quests, and gear loot tables = poor game design pure and simple. Give us something better!
You obviously have no idea what MMOs are about. If you've never played old school D&D or pre MMO era MuDs, then I can understand that. At any rate, the whole concept of online gaming is thus. You kill stuff to go up in level, to get better gear, to kill tougher mobs or players, to go up in level, to get better gear and so on. Its that basic fundamental process that makes MMO's go round and round. Without it, you'ld have nothing to do, no goals to achieve and would simply quit from shear boredom.
Its not the items themselves that your upset about, it's whats required to aquire them. I've already posted alternative suggestions as to how this could be done, but whether or not anyone cares to read what I wrote is a different story. Anyhow, your going to be looking for a itemless MMO for a long time, unless you like games like Planetside, City of Heroes or World War 2 Online.
Actually a number of MUDs never allowed gear to go past certain point in power. Ever. On the MUD I played the most powerful items were called artifacts and could be kept through a login and were only obtainable by killing certain bosses.
No normal item was ever allowed to be artifact quality and not a single player could reliably obtain any particular artifact.
Many LP MUDs did not institute the infinite gear grind. And even most Diku Muds had capped levels anyway, these usually implemented a Remort system eventually. Gear was important but it wasn't the progression for the desparate after max level that it is in many MMOs.
In point of fact many MUDs tended to be more like CoX or DDO with people playing many alts.
War Dev: "Some players will naturally excel in combat and we don't want to penalize them for this. However, we don't want them to dominate all the time either, thus gear comes into play."
So how are they going to deny the good PvPers from having access to the good gear? Aren't they just going to be even better with the better gear? They will broaded the gap between good PvPers and completely shut out all the others.
3. Crafting has not been announced or discussed yet.
You know, I realize WAR isn't centered on crafting, but I do wonder why they haven't given us any details about the crafting system yet. (even a few decent hints). Maybe its really minimal, which is sort of a shame since DAOC at least let you make useful items (even if the process was boring and mechanical)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of people are missing a very important point. This is RVR not PVP. You shouldn't look at it as, I died because player X had a 40% advantage over me. When you break it down in terms of group combat, gear becomes less of a factor. Now I am not saying that it won't help, but a organized, competent group should be able to overcome a disadvantage in terms of gear.
Games are gear based, that is just how it typically is anymore. Hell even the OG UO is gear based. This is just another aspect of character development. And why shouldn't it be? I agree that is can be frustrating when you lose solely BECAUSE of gear (ornament of the mage, much??), but I do not believe it will be as bad as a lot of posters are making it out to be.
Also, you will be able to obtain gear from RVR. So naturally, the more you RVR, the more chances you have to also upgrade your gear. Nevermind RVR talents, etc.
As to the person whom asked how a city siege is any different then a raid, a city siege is much more dynamic. AI is AI, but a massive RVR fight has many different endings and strategies.
As for crafting, I certainly hope they have it. And I hope pc made gear can hold its own against drops. DAOC has this by adding spellcrafting, which I was very fond of. Just make the high end craftable gear harder to make, rarer reagents, etc.
I find these threads amusing for one reason - no matter how you look at it when you get down to it PvP and PvE are both grindfests.
I know, people are shouting at their monitors - you dumb fu..... I don't care - they are both grind fests and this does not matter if there is gear or no gear. Hell, I could make an argument that FPS's are grind fests - especially in games like CoD4 where you have a whole host of achievements to unlock.
What is a grind-fest ultimately? It is doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It does not matter if you are fighting a computer controlled mob and another player. It is the same whether I am killing 47 blood sucking bunny rabbits or 47 bunny hopping players that are sitting at their keyboard doing the exact same thing I am. It is a grind.
If I am in WoW raiding Illadin(sp) over and over again so I can get the leet upber gear he drops or I am playing in an Arena over and over again so I can get the leet uber gear available there I am still grinding.
What is the real difference? That the player is more efficient at hitting the same set of buttons than the computer? That the player moves around like a rapid hampster so they can say their used 'tactics' and 'twitch' to beat the other fool pounding on his keyboard doing the same? That really is not a difference.
The role of gear really has nothing to do with whether the game is a grindfest. It could be 100% gear based or 0% gear based - it is still a grind. In any MMO today I am doing the exact same thing the first time I play as I am when I hit max level. I just have more buttons to push.
Don't get me wrong - I enjoy playing MMOs as much as just about any other type of game but I am under no illusion that any one play style is better or less of a grind than another - it is just in a different wrapper.
I find these threads amusing for one reason - no matter how you look at it when you get down to it PvP and PvE are both grindfests. I know, people are shouting at their monitors - you dumb fu..... I don't care - they are both grind fests and this does not matter if there is gear or no gear. Hell, I could make an argument that FPS's are grind fests - especially in games like CoD4 where you have a whole host of achievements to unlock. What is a grind-fest ultimately? It is doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It does not matter if you are fighting a computer controlled mob and another player. It is the same whether I am killing 47 blood sucking bunny rabbits or 47 bunny hopping players that are sitting at their keyboard doing the exact same thing I am. It is a grind. If I am in WoW raiding Illadin(sp) over and over again so I can get the leet upber gear he drops or I am playing in an Arena over and over again so I can get the leet uber gear available there I am still grinding. What is the real difference? That the player is more efficient at hitting the same set of buttons than the computer? That the player moves around like a rapid hampster so they can say their used 'tactics' and 'twitch' to beat the other fool pounding on his keyboard doing the same? That really is not a difference. The role of gear really has nothing to do with whether the game is a grindfest. It could be 100% gear based or 0% gear based - it is still a grind. In any MMO today I am doing the exact same thing the first time I play as I am when I hit max level. I just have more buttons to push. Don't get me wrong - I enjoy playing MMOs as much as just about any other type of game but I am under no illusion that any one play style is better or less of a grind than another - it is just in a different wrapper.
xray00,
You have an interesting point, but I am going to disagree with your definition of grinding. To me a grind is doing something repeatedly when you would be inclined to do something else. IE: Running a dungeon for the millionth time in hope to get the last piece of your armor "set." Killing the same mob over and over because it is giving you the best xp gains for your level.
By your definition, every video game made is a grind. Every game....even the sims, by your definition.
For me, PVP/RVR has never been a grind. Ok, I lied....in WoW once the bgs where added, it felt like a grind...but every other game I've played that had PVP or RVR, I was out there fighting other players for the mere fun. Hence it was not a grind for me. Even when WoW first came out, I was on a PVP server and PVP was fun and exciting, but certainly not a "grind.". Ultimately, I have been chasing the old UO days...when pvp was pvp and skill was skill. There have been very few MMO moments since the first days of UO, that have spiked the adrenaline like it use to!!
With that being said what would be a grind to me might not be to you. all perspective.
And probably the main point....once pvp feels like it is a grind....I find the cancel button.
I think a lot of people are missing a very important point. This is RVR not PVP. You shouldn't look at it as, I died because player X had a 40% advantage over me. When you break it down in terms of group combat, gear becomes less of a factor. Now I am not saying that it won't help, but a organized, competent group should be able to overcome a disadvantage in terms of gear.
So you assume that the group you will be fighting will have uber gear but won't be organized or competant - What if they have all three? A organized, competent group in uber gear what then?
How about a game where the most organized and competant group wins because they were more organized and competant. Making people collect gear in a PvP based game is a pointless timesink and increases the inbalance between players of equal competance while abolutely destroying a lesser players (gear & competance) ability to protect themselves.
Is that smart game design?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Comments
omg, Kill_trolls is a god walking amongst mere mortals.
Cheers, mate
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as a reply to the OP
I cant explain why
but surprisingly your wrong
I play all ghame
So there your raid premise have been disproven by example.
The gear stuff though is most likely impossible to get away from. Raiding however is far from necesaary and in fact it can be quite harmful.
Why does every fcking game must have gear based pvp???????? What do the devs have? $hit for brains?
Maybe after i kill 35345345 people they should allow me to shoot thunderbolts out of my @ss for 60% advantage to make it a nice round 100%
I hope u guyz have fun playing this. I m out.
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Definately not. Its got nothing to do with twitch at all.
I am going off a recent press report / write up, and a dev chat log and trying to make sense of it.
There is not point saying go to WoW or AoC or wherever because you couldn't answer my question, doesn't help anyone, does it.
What im trying to get clarification from is that I want to have the best stuff at some point during my gaming time with warhammer. It has been said that city sieging will give some lucky players the chance to get the "best" item drops. It has been reported that in a city siege (where you get the best items) there will be multiple "instanced" area's maybe "up to 5". For me to go thru all of this to get a "piece" of gear and then repeat all this again to get extra parts is a timesink just like a hard raid right...
2 points I want to make are:
1. How is this different from a long drawn out raid?
2, Will i have the ability to craft an equivilent "best" item in the game, instead of having to go thru all this to get the "best" items?
I think they are vaild questions, and just prove another point when the fans of the game say - war wont have raiding like WoW to get the best items. When infact it does but in a different form for me.
And im sorry but for me 40% is a hefty chunk - im not the best in pvp so i'll take all i can get thank you very much. People will still want to "best" its natural to want it just as much as wanting extra levels.
Sorry no one could answer this or clarify a bit more for me. I'll keep watching and waiting for game updates in this area. hoping it will change.
This game is not gear based, and if you formulated your opinion of your game while reading this thread you are making a terrible mistake. Regardless, if you don't want to play, have fun elsewhere.
Well what do you expect? to be given the best gear in 5 min from logging on? Try AOC if you want twitch to be more a factor. most mmo's are just big turn based combat systems.
Definately not. Its got nothing to do with twitch at all.
I am going off a recent press report / write up, and a dev chat log and trying to make sense of it.
There is not point saying go to WoW or AoC or wherever because you couldn't answer my question, doesn't help anyone, does it.
What im trying to get clarification from is that I want to have the best stuff at some point during my gaming time with warhammer. It has been said that city sieging will give some lucky players the chance to get the "best" item drops. It has been reported that in a city siege (where you get the best items) there will be multiple "instanced" area's maybe "up to 5". For me to go thru all of this to get a "piece" of gear and then repeat all this again to get extra parts is a timesink just like a hard raid right...
2 points I want to make are:
1. How is this different from a long drawn out raid?
2, Will i have the ability to craft an equivilent "best" item in the game, instead of having to go thru all this to get the "best" items?
I think they are vaild questions, and just prove another point when the fans of the game say - war wont have raiding like WoW to get the best items. When infact it does but in a different form for me.
And im sorry but for me 40% is a hefty chunk - im not the best in pvp so i'll take all i can get thank you very much. People will still want to "best" its natural to want it just as much as wanting extra levels.
Sorry no one could answer this or clarify a bit more for me. I'll keep watching and waiting for game updates in this area. hoping it will change.
They've gotten rid of the 'multiple' instances, unless you count the initial instance to open the city gates. The beginning part of the siege is an instance (or atleast it was the last time they talked about it), then there's open RvR, PQ's, AND of course dungeons (no word on if they're instanced dungeons or just big areas with more PQ's I'm hoping for PQ's they seem way more fun than dungeons & pve raids) that are only open to you when you have control of the enemy's city. Sieges are going to be constant, maybe not every day but very constant.
The whole point of all the Realm points your side collects through out all the Teirs for PvE & RvR and other various actions is that reaching the maximum realm points opens up the chance to siege (once the siege is over those realm points reset so both realms have return to the struggle of war!). If you succeed in the initial siege you continue on into the city. Here you have your choice of anywhere you want to go and the more you do the better chances you have. Even so if I remember correctly the personal points you get through the activities passes over to the next time you siege so its not like you have to start fresh everytime (thank god or it'd suck to try and do PQ's and never get anything cause you never get to finish).
The thing with WoW raids is that the gear is extremely rare, you absoltuely have to be in a big guild to do it, you had to be really organized and plan and time things out. WAR's not taking this approach. In WAR you can join a guild but you don't HAVE to be in a guild to siege all you have to do is show up during the siege and rush in! Yes its the best gear and yes you'll probably have to participate multiple times to get all the peices but you won't be spending 4 to 5 hours a night for several long exhausting months trying to get everything. Nothing is ever handed to you on a perfect platter. You either spend time working on Sieges till you get everything you want or you spend time farming gold somewhere to buy the crafted items or the material to craft them. Either way you time sink. Just which one do you find more fun? Personally going and rampaging on someone city seems like a better way to spend my time.
Every game is a time sink...just logging on is a time sink. Its just nice when your time sink is entertaining, thats the reason we pay money right? To burn time and enjoy it.
Right now there's no word on crafting other than it'll be awsome. They also said they want what players craft to be equivalent or better than drop gear. Does this mean it'll be the absolute best? Dunno right now its all speculation.
I wish there was some way i could better answer your questions but other than the things ive read in newsletters, the herald, seen in the podcasts and various interviews i'm just as much in the dark as you are when it comes to the absolute final perfect answer. Until the NDA lifts or they come out and say it themselves your just going to get everyone's personal comprehended views from what we've seen and read.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Wouldn't PvP without gear be like an FPS? I guess not exactly the same... there would be skills you could use too. Or maybe everyone could run around slapping each other.
Sounds like you don't like RPGs. That whole character progression thing.
Erm no, rpg without gear is still nothing like an FPS, i m sorry if u think that way, u probably havent played any good rpgs. U still get stuns, stifles/powerblocks, snares, knockbacks, positional attacks, passive block and dodge (meaning u dnt have to bunny hop) and possibly alot more features which i dont remember right now. Now all those tools involve strategy, and that strategy leads to the action-reaction battle type rpgs are famous about, add to that the ability to develop your character with freedom to some extent in most games and there u have it. That is what an rpg is all about, in my eyes at least.
I still dont get the necessity to bring gear in that mix when it comes to pvp, a 10% difference i would understand, but a 40% would take alot of skill from my part to overcome. Plain and simple i dont like gear grinding, farming or w/e way u wanna put it. I m the type of guy who runs around in blue items (wow term) and relies on his skill to get the kill, because i dont liek to grind for better ones.
I hope the OP is wrong as a couple of people have pointed out, but if his words are true this game is not for me and there is seriously something wrong in the minds of the developers, pvp should only come down to skill......
Why is it that most people in this thread assume that unless you have the end all be all city siege gear that you are getting 0% stats from the tier 4 gear?
You will be pretty much given your standard gear set on a silver platter. The tier 5(City Siege gear) sets might only be 5% better. So really your complaining about the difference between the base tier 4 gear and the tier 5. The difference which is unknown at this juncture in time. You see a number like 40% and jump on it because it seems like a big percent. 40% of 0 is still 0.
In addition. WTF is wrong with people here? It isn't like gear is going to be hard to get. It isn't WoW where you need to do lvl 60 instances to do MC just to get to BWL and then into AQ40 and Naxx. OR for lvl 70: 70 instances->Heroics->Kara->Gruul/za->TK/SSC->MH->BT->SW.
To compare it to WoW it would be leveling to 70 and then doing ithe 5 man instances for gear. City sieges being more like Heroics. There isn't 4-5 tiers of gear at the endgame. There is the base tier 4 gear and the tier 5 gear.Thats how easy gear will be to get. If you can't stay competitive then you obviously play for 1hour a week, 2 weeks out of the month.
ALSO if you can't log in to participate in the free for all city raids and get gear then you've obviously done something terribly wrong. You're chances of getting gear are based on how much you participate. You don't have to be in the raid group, you don't have to be in a guild, You just show up and kill stuff. Is that to hard for you? I don't think it is.
The fact is you will have to grind becuase today doign quests are seen as grinding , pvp is seen as it , anythign you do repeditively is seen as a grind to most people. So unless you can make a game that has unlimited fresh and new combat, setting, spell s, abilities , etc. YOUR WRONG.
Now having said that GW is trash of an mmorpg, its and ok game but as a rpg it fails , why well you hardly really develop your toon. WoW at the RPG elements of the game does a better job than GW. Now i am not saying that GW is not a good MMO (which in a way its not at all an mmo), but what i am saying is the reason the GRIND is there is to allow you to take the time to develop your character. I miss the grind of old mmos , in WOW grinding exp only works for a few levels and i have to be in instances to do it. In GW i can make a pvp toon and hit max level just like that, you might find not leveling or developing your characters to be fun, however, really you should just call such a game and mmo adventure or hack-n-slash, or something , and really at this rate just play an fps.
Ill take the grind why? I loke d&d i like rpgs, i like developing my characters. Now id rather have it not be painful and i would like it to be purposeful . But ill take it becuase it makes a better game.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
What you call "developing a game character" I call "numbing down of real person who plays the character".
I have nothing against your choice, as I have stated before. I know that all people are not equally smart on this planet, and seeing how many people like pure grind I have come to the conclusion that there are people who dunnot like being smart. Why else would someone exercise himself by doing intellectual stuff, and someone else dull himself by doing repetitive mindless work?
Also, I think you fail to understand the difference between PvE and PvP. My ideal of PvE is a combination of Guild Wars and Monkey Island for instance, but since I'm not a huge fan of PvE I will not go into discussing it. I do want to touch the aspect of PvP though. PvP is *not* about developing your character. PvP is not about "behold my stats, you puny mortal, and instantly die at the sight of them" or "behold my developed character, ye mortals who entered this arena". A developed character in PvP is not ingame character - it's the real player behind that character. He develops. In ideal PvE, it's the same. I want to roleplay in a way that my character is unique in what it does, how it looks, and abilities he has. But not in having *more* but in being *different*. That's the difference in WoW PvP and GW PvP. In GW PvP I have 8 skills, and these 8 skills can be very different than those skills others use, and still effective. In WoW, I only need to grind to lvl 999 and that's it. Where is roleplaying in that? How can I immerse myself in "must.... grind.... more... arm ... hurts..."?
Who developes by playing Monkey Island? The player. His experience. His thrill. Does Monkey Island have levels or XP or whatever? No. But you *are* roleplaying! This is the key thing here. Roleplaying got lost in ancient ages, and is clouded by grinding. Roleplaying is measured by immersion, not by grind stats. Now, I understand that multiplayer game would differ obviously but the point is made. RPG does not consist only and exclusively of grind. RPG means exactly that: roleplaying. Just because you're used to playing xy types of games and grew up grinding, doesn't mean that's all there is to RPG. It's like saying that soap operas or Danielle Steel novels are the only possible way to make tv series and write novels. They are not. You don't need to cry in soap operas, and feel depressed/bad. Yes, that's a possible way of immersion and "roleplaying" style but not the only one, not by a long shot.
Love and peace now please! KTHXBYE.
...PvP is *not* about developing your character. PvP is not about "behold my stats, you puny mortal, and instantly die at the sight of them" or "behold my developed character, ye mortals who entered this arena". A developed character in PvP is not ingame character - it's the real player behind that character.
In WAr pvp does develop your character , and it did in daoc also. And people LIKED this about games.
In muds pvp develop[ed your characters (This was a way to equip yourself in most good muds. However, if you lost then your equip would start over from ground zero , but still character development via pvp is almost as old as pvp is , so once again its nice that you played a few games were pvp did not develop your characters , but i can say i have enjoyed those pvp system much less, and that is the general agreement for mmo and game players.)
Look at PS character development is 100% pvp , while its not the Best mmo it is the best mmofps to date.
So while you may not like the idea of character development via PvP, That is not only the plan for WAR but the reality.
" RPG means exactly that: roleplaying."
That right now i could just have all the best equip and max level character when i first log in, and roleplay it , but you know NO ONE WANTS TO DO THAT. If they did then games with no content would be super popular but they are not.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
a) That's exactly what I said, and the general agreement is that soap operas are the best type of tv-series, and folk music is best music. If majority wants it, that's fine. But I don't like how you use majority to support your claims as if that make them the best. It's argumentum ad populum.
b) I don't think you have carefully read what I wrote. It's not true that "no one wants to do that", because I already did give one example - Monkey Island. There is roleplaying, and you have max level char and best equip as soon as you login. And guess what, it was super popular. Also, I don't understand what you mean by the last sentence; I'm the one who is for more content. Grind doesn't make content. Grind makes you do the same thing infinitely, it's like trying to get Diablo's Zod rune (or whatever the name was). It's not content, it's excel sheet editing.
(I agreed with the rest you posted so didn't comment on that)
Damn i was worried Warhammer online would be item based...
I just quit WOW after two weeks along with my wife because of it being so item based we were unable to compete with all the uber epics and twinks...
A crafter should be able to make the very best stuff available, if not then why even craft in the first place...
I was already being turned off by the recent combat video, it had crap assed cookie cutter combat mechanics... run up and take turns swinging while you go make a sandwich.
The more i read about this game the more im turned off.
Disappointing.
FoE Fist of the Empire
1. Who ever said that gear would be difficult to acquire in this game?
2. If you based your reading off of all these speculation and assumption posts then well...
3. Crafting has not been announced or discussed yet.
4. How many times must it be explained that the recent combat videos are done at conventions or were staged?
5. The game is in beta. Typically things change in beta.
This isnt meant to flame or target one person, but all these speculation/assumption threads are getting a little old people. One day you will have your answers by either getting in beta, when the NDA is released, or when EA/Mythic release the information, until then I suppose you all will continue with these pointless guessing games.
Edit: Oh, and Happy Valentines Day everyone!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Its not the items themselves that your upset about, it's whats required to aquire them. I've already posted alternative suggestions as to how this could be done, but whether or not anyone cares to read what I wrote is a different story. Anyhow, your going to be looking for a itemless MMO for a long time, unless you like games like Planetside, City of Heroes or World War 2 Online.
Actually a number of MUDs never allowed gear to go past certain point in power. Ever. On the MUD I played the most powerful items were called artifacts and could be kept through a login and were only obtainable by killing certain bosses.No normal item was ever allowed to be artifact quality and not a single player could reliably obtain any particular artifact.
Many LP MUDs did not institute the infinite gear grind. And even most Diku Muds had capped levels anyway, these usually implemented a Remort system eventually. Gear was important but it wasn't the progression for the desparate after max level that it is in many MMOs.
In point of fact many MUDs tended to be more like CoX or DDO with people playing many alts.
War Dev: "Some players will naturally excel in combat and we don't want to penalize them for this. However, we don't want them to dominate all the time either, thus gear comes into play."
So how are they going to deny the good PvPers from having access to the good gear? Aren't they just going to be even better with the better gear? They will broaded the gap between good PvPers and completely shut out all the others.
From here:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/15076
The article is about PvP balancing I guess someone should explain to them what happens when one side of a scale is 1% to 40% heavier.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Thank you for the interesting post, i am too in favor of gear obtain trough pvp and i trust the dev 100% they will not make same mistake as in wow.
You know, I realize WAR isn't centered on crafting, but I do wonder why they haven't given us any details about the crafting system yet. (even a few decent hints). Maybe its really minimal, which is sort of a shame since DAOC at least let you make useful items (even if the process was boring and mechanical)
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think a lot of people are missing a very important point. This is RVR not PVP. You shouldn't look at it as, I died because player X had a 40% advantage over me. When you break it down in terms of group combat, gear becomes less of a factor. Now I am not saying that it won't help, but a organized, competent group should be able to overcome a disadvantage in terms of gear.
Games are gear based, that is just how it typically is anymore. Hell even the OG UO is gear based. This is just another aspect of character development. And why shouldn't it be? I agree that is can be frustrating when you lose solely BECAUSE of gear (ornament of the mage, much??), but I do not believe it will be as bad as a lot of posters are making it out to be.
Also, you will be able to obtain gear from RVR. So naturally, the more you RVR, the more chances you have to also upgrade your gear. Nevermind RVR talents, etc.
As to the person whom asked how a city siege is any different then a raid, a city siege is much more dynamic. AI is AI, but a massive RVR fight has many different endings and strategies.
As for crafting, I certainly hope they have it. And I hope pc made gear can hold its own against drops. DAOC has this by adding spellcrafting, which I was very fond of. Just make the high end craftable gear harder to make, rarer reagents, etc.
I find these threads amusing for one reason - no matter how you look at it when you get down to it PvP and PvE are both grindfests.
I know, people are shouting at their monitors - you dumb fu..... I don't care - they are both grind fests and this does not matter if there is gear or no gear. Hell, I could make an argument that FPS's are grind fests - especially in games like CoD4 where you have a whole host of achievements to unlock.
What is a grind-fest ultimately? It is doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It does not matter if you are fighting a computer controlled mob and another player. It is the same whether I am killing 47 blood sucking bunny rabbits or 47 bunny hopping players that are sitting at their keyboard doing the exact same thing I am. It is a grind.
If I am in WoW raiding Illadin(sp) over and over again so I can get the leet upber gear he drops or I am playing in an Arena over and over again so I can get the leet uber gear available there I am still grinding.
What is the real difference? That the player is more efficient at hitting the same set of buttons than the computer? That the player moves around like a rapid hampster so they can say their used 'tactics' and 'twitch' to beat the other fool pounding on his keyboard doing the same? That really is not a difference.
The role of gear really has nothing to do with whether the game is a grindfest. It could be 100% gear based or 0% gear based - it is still a grind. In any MMO today I am doing the exact same thing the first time I play as I am when I hit max level. I just have more buttons to push.
Don't get me wrong - I enjoy playing MMOs as much as just about any other type of game but I am under no illusion that any one play style is better or less of a grind than another - it is just in a different wrapper.
You have an interesting point, but I am going to disagree with your definition of grinding. To me a grind is doing something repeatedly when you would be inclined to do something else. IE: Running a dungeon for the millionth time in hope to get the last piece of your armor "set." Killing the same mob over and over because it is giving you the best xp gains for your level.
By your definition, every video game made is a grind. Every game....even the sims, by your definition.
For me, PVP/RVR has never been a grind. Ok, I lied....in WoW once the bgs where added, it felt like a grind...but every other game I've played that had PVP or RVR, I was out there fighting other players for the mere fun. Hence it was not a grind for me. Even when WoW first came out, I was on a PVP server and PVP was fun and exciting, but certainly not a "grind.". Ultimately, I have been chasing the old UO days...when pvp was pvp and skill was skill. There have been very few MMO moments since the first days of UO, that have spiked the adrenaline like it use to!!
With that being said what would be a grind to me might not be to you. all perspective.
And probably the main point....once pvp feels like it is a grind....I find the cancel button.
So you assume that the group you will be fighting will have uber gear but won't be organized or competant - What if they have all three? A organized, competent group in uber gear what then?
How about a game where the most organized and competant group wins because they were more organized and competant. Making people collect gear in a PvP based game is a pointless timesink and increases the inbalance between players of equal competance while abolutely destroying a lesser players (gear & competance) ability to protect themselves.
Is that smart game design?
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"