SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While I have a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint and won't go back to SWG myself, I still must point out that this last paragraph is hard to quantify. Sucessful how? I don't doubt SOE are still making cash, EQ2 is still doing well and they will still be making money of SWG's new players. Plus, I seriously doubt that 'most gamers on this planet' ever even visit these forums
No - SWG Vets may have blown off steam and given vent to their anger here (no bad thing) and made many good cases for classic servers and the like (and yes, I would probably resub to play on them) but don't kid yourself that any meaningful revenge has been enacted upon SOE, or (to be blunt) that the majority of non-SWG players give a rats ass one way or the other.....
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said.
I DO agree that most people don't care about SWG at all. However, the drastic backlash that SOE suffered on the internet from SWG Veterans has been substantial, to say the least.
Vets have been vocal. Blog after blog has reached thousands of readers and the outlook as whole, on SWG, has been biased by the reaction of these Vets. Don't sell their voice short. They have had success.
SOE isn't making that much money off of SWG, if any.
Thanks for the polite response - I don't mean to sell the vet's short, for sure. I admire that people are passionate enough about a game to be so vocal. I'll even agree that SWG has probably suffered as a direct result of the ire of the vets...
I guess I just don't think that SOE overall are going to be noticably troubled by the anger of the Vets, as they do have other games to rely on - games that are generally doign OK - even if SWG disappears off the radar. And I also think that, as time goes by, people simply aren't going to be put of future SOE games because of the Vet's anger at SOE, however justifiable that anger is. SWG is pretty much (as far as I can tell) already regarded (perhaps due to the vocal activity of the Vets, arguably) as a dated game; great in it's day but already fading from gaming conciousness. And as it fades the relevance of the Vet's anger, to other gamers at least, fades also....
My opinion, of course, and I do respect your right to disagree. I wish you well.
---------------------------- Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
as it fades the relevance of the Vet's anger, to other gamers at least, fades also....
My opinion, of course, and I do respect your right to disagree. I wish you well.
poetic irony...
When SWG dies, so too does the strength of the vets voice against SOE.
I actually doubt it though. SOE didn't need the NGE to spur hatred for that company. They have made MANY mistakes on every game they have touched. I think the tales of SWG will live long past the game...simply because they will remain relevant anytime someone begins to discuss a mistake made in any other MMO they run.
Good answer above. But is it not fair to say that people such as myself (who was like most in here who hated NGE and SOE for changing a great game) who play the game and enjoy it should be able to continue playing the game without making a post here thats positive without 400 people comenting on how bad the game sucks when i can garuntee 90% of the people who post here havent given the game a chance. You and i have talked about this before and i know you ahve tried it. Honestly though with a few minor keymaps its the same game except you can now instantly play a jedi.
My next question is what happens theoretically speaking the KOTOR Online does come out in 2010, and its worse than NGE. And the game sucks. I mean yes BIOWARE is a great company. But if everything proves true, Jedi will be a starting class. And then most people will be so hung up on SWG style of play that everyone will be demanding BIOWARE release classic servers.
IT IS ??
You mean that I can log on and play my Master Pistoleer-/Master C/H and another hybred on the other account ?? that I had over 4,000 hours of my time invested in...
Think your the one that needs to get over it..I for one never will.
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
(a) Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,
(b) Failure to make delivery of the advertised product within a reasonable time or to make a refund,
(c) Disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product, or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs, or in any other respect, in connection with it,
(d) The delivery of the advertised product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement. [Guide 4]
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
SOE advertised, promoted, and sold pre orders for TOOW when they well knew that what they were advertising would not be in the game within 2 weeks of charging for the expansion.
That is premeditated fraud. And clearly a crime, an interstate felony in fact.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
There can certainly be levels of acceptable changes as there can be levels of unaccpetable changes. For example, changing the numbers on a specific skill I think is accpetable. Another example, removing nearly all the classes/professions is unacceptable.Changing the core game mechanics should not be accpetable. We as consumers need a certain level of assurance that the product we play resembles the product we bought.
As far as regulations restricting companies, well I can promise you that those companies will adapt. With so much potential money out there they certainly wont walk away from the industry because of a few inconvenient rules. In fact it would probably do the industry (specifically SoE) good as they will spend more time ensuring their product works before releasing it.
And lastly, concerning your example of a grocery store what would happen if you bought a small piece of that store then paid to go in on a monthly basis? What if you paid a year in advance? What if that grocery store wasn't losing money but actually still making quite a bit? Nah, I say analogy doesn't even come close to an accurate representation of what's happened here.
Government regulation of the MMO industry is inevitable. Why? Because of companies like SOE. SOE has shown no self restraint at all, no self regulation of it's power.
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
(a) Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,
(b) Failure to make delivery of the advertised product within a reasonable time or to make a refund,
(c) Disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product, or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs, or in any other respect, in connection with it,
(d) The delivery of the advertised product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement. [Guide 4]
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
Saay, I really don't think you are comprehending...
In November 2005, SWG: An Empire Divided became a NEW and DIFFERENT game, SWG: NGE.
The ENGINE mechanics changed. The games are derived from 2 different sets of code. As different as an Amphibian and a Mammal. Different DNA.
So for the gamers who put in 2+ years of work on SWG: An Empire Divided and bought EXPANSIONS for SWG: An Empire Divided, there was NO future for their gaming experience with their game, it was over.
2 DIFFERENT GAMES.
People PAID for expansions for 1 game, then were suddenly given a DIFFERENT game to play. That, Saay, is illegal. SOE didn't offer refunds until the backlash was so severe they knew a class action suit was coming if they didn't.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying so hard to tell you.
Saay, I really don't think you are comprehending... In November 2005, SWG: An Empire Divided became a NEW and DIFFERENT game, SWG: NGE. The ENGINE mechanics changed. The games are derived from 2 different sets of code. As different as an Amphibian and a Mammal. Different DNA. So for the gamers who put in 2+ years of work on SWG: An Empire Divided and bought EXPANSIONS for SWG: An Empire Divided, there was NO future for their gaming experience with their game, it was over. 2 DIFFERENT GAMES. People PAID for expansions for 1 game, then were suddenly given a DIFFERENT game to play. That, Saay, is illegal. SOE didn't offer refunds until the backlash was so severe they knew a class action suit was coming if they didn't. Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying so hard to tell you.
You know you just made me think of something.
We always blame SOE for SWG.. and talk about things such as what you posted.
Anyway as I'm reading what you typed I'm thinking about the crap they did to the movies. Have you ever seen the latest "remake" of EP 4, 5 and 6...?
The crap they added and how at the end of EP6.. instead of seeing the actor who used to be Anakin in the blue glow... we now see the EP 1, 2 and 3 version.
I'll honestly never buy the movies on DVD... not because I didn't like 1, 2 and 3 alright (ya I know I'm one of the few that didn't mind).
But because... of the radical change they did to the movies I saw when they released was back (4, 5, and 6).
How odd.. radical remake of the older movies.. and radical remake of the MMO.. I wonder if SOE bought the rights to the movies or something... *ponders* or .. is it.. something else... hmm
Why so many vets sit in here day in and day out saying SOE sucks this and sucks that. You also have sigs that say pull the plug on SWG and this and that. If you want the game to die then stop talking about it. Dont forget free publicity is good publicity be it bad or good. Look at holywood stars... they get more attention when they hit cars get drunk do drugs and suicide then they do by donating millions to orphans. The really sad thing is all you who complain and all who constantly bitch will jump right back into SWG if there were to make a so called classic server. Frankly there is nothing wrong with this version. Get over it games change everything has to change and evolve. Let the flames begin lol. PS my interface, controls and play is identicle to the way it was set up before NGE meaning that the controls and crap most cry about can be changed, then you say i shouldnt have to change it well to bad do it lol. Did you know that u dont need to use the cross hair.... Press t and its like back to normal.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
(a) Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,
(b) Failure to make delivery of the advertised product within a reasonable time or to make a refund,
(c) Disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product, or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs, or in any other respect, in connection with it,
(d) The delivery of the advertised product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement. [Guide 4]
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
Saay, I really don't think you are comprehending...
In November 2005, SWG: An Empire Divided became a NEW and DIFFERENT game, SWG: NGE.
The ENGINE mechanics changed. The games are derived from 2 different sets of code. As different as an Amphibian and a Mammal. Different DNA.
So for the gamers who put in 2+ years of work on SWG: An Empire Divided and bought EXPANSIONS for SWG: An Empire Divided, there was NO future for their gaming experience with their game, it was over.
2 DIFFERENT GAMES.
People PAID for expansions for 1 game, then were suddenly given a DIFFERENT game to play. That, Saay, is illegal. SOE didn't offer refunds until the backlash was so severe they knew a class action suit was coming if they didn't.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying so hard to tell you.
I assure you, i comprehend you entirely. Yes Pre-NGE and NGE are very different experiences (though with mostly the same areas, weapons, avatars etc); I accepted that the ToOW thing was illegal, if you look above, hence why they gave out refunds. Point is, you've altered what you were saying in the beginning about the NGE itself being illegal and just focused on the ToOW expansion. Please dont patronise me when you're trying to argue a point i already agree with..
I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners.
What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree.
A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour.
No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment.
Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
I would like to address the person above who stated that BM is a crappy copy of Hunter in WoW. Hunter in Wow is an exceptionally crappy version of creature handler from Pre-NGE SWG. I used to spend DAYS camping for babies of rare creatures to tame. Yep, I was one of "those." It was very rewarding because you actually had to hunt for it, then you fought with them and they grew up. (Yes, I know they still grow up from babies in the new system, but it's just not the same.) Having the ability to tame animals was much more rewarding. I would still at times use a bio-engineered pet (as they could be tailor made for certain situations), but I would mostly use the tamed ones. WoW pet taming...nothing on SWG's old system. As a matter of fact, there's a lot of stuff in WoW that is similar to SWG as well as Everquest and I've never heard one person (save for the person above:) accuse WoW of being a _____clone. I agree with a lot of folks that WoW (even though I played and enjoyed the game, but left cause of the lack of depth and horrible community) has in a part all but killed our chances for a good pre-cu style MMO. I tried the new game for several months, but...no matter how long I try it to me it just seems like a bastardized version of what I once had Oh and I'll be the first to admit that even though I swear up and down that I'll never give SOE another cent, I'd be signing back up the DAY pre-cu servers went live. I wouldn't be able to stop myself from hoping that thing could be like they were.
Dude your snapping at the wrong person i my self was a MCH
Yes there is also something wrong with people coming in here never seeing them before and call us wrong for talking about a game its our forum our subject dont like it then dont come here . Its just that simple..
Itis my right to post here and i post here because my statements are not allowed at the sucker O boards i had to move here thanks to the fascistic like ban and mute behavior or $OE moderation.You seem to forget that the company forced us to leave betraying us by developing with our money a game which they knowed will drive us away and will destroy our belongings, all in the hidden and in front of us telling us lies about.
I will continue to use the power of posting my point of views about that company and the state of the sucky NGE and the inferior money sucking strategies $OE develops and on the other site delivers inferior crap.
It also feels good to remember them what they did every day till a satisfactory solution is reached were the vast majority of Star Wars fans can enjoy a Star Wars MMO.
And btw you being satisfied by something inferior and coming here to defend it is more disturbing IMO.
Is Star Wars MMO the big vision for all of us be part of it or the way for some small mean man to make fast $cash? - i just love it our community has given the right answer and will continue to answer this properly.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
OP i can enlighten you... Itis my right to post here and i post here because my statements are not allowed at the sucker O boards i had to move here thanks to the fascistic like ban and mute behavior or $OE moderation.You seem to forget that the company forced us to leave betraying us by developing with our money a game which they knowed will drive us away and will destroy our belongings, all in the hidden and in front of us telling us lies about. I will continue to use the power of posting my point of views about that company and the state of the sucky NGE and the inferior money sucking strategies $OE develops and on the other site delivers inferior crap. It also feels good to remember them what they did every day till a satisfactory solution is reached were the vast majority of Star Wars fans can enjoy a Star Wars MMO. And btw you being satisfied by something inferior and coming here to defend it is more disturbing IMO. Is Star Wars MMO the big vision for all of us be part of it or the way for some small mean man to make $cash ?
Above in red stood out to me.
What would you consider a satisfactory solution??? If its the game getting it plug pulled is a staisfactory solution then of course this will happen in time. Every game will eventually be shut down.
OP, say you buy a nice new car with a 20k mile warrenty and the works. Your driving in your new ride and discover the blinkers don't work, it's mileage is less than advertised, and it's interior smells like old cheese. Despite these problems you still love the lil thing, so you take it in for repairs. And while the dealers details the inside and fixes the blinker you are told parts for the gas problem won't arrive for three months. Three months later you take it in, but on it's return are told you'll still get bad milage but you got sexah new seat covers!, please come back in 3 months, we PROMISE we'll be able to fix it then. Oh and we messed up your brakes, drive carefull till then . 3 months later they fix the brakes, make the gass milage worse and btw, your headlights are always on when the keys in the ignition, not sure why, but we'll fix that as soon as we figure it out. A month later you take it in to get the promised fixes and when you return to pick up your car your givven a different one, and they say we think you'll like this car better even tho it's nothing like the one you bought. No you don't have a choice and no you can't have your money back. Would you just forget being treated in such a manner? Or would you tell all and sundry about the deceptive practices of said company.
And no I would not go back to a classic server. Looking at the way SOE has been dealing with some of their other games tells me they are still opperating in the same way. I'll not give them a penny, h3ll i won't even play a free trial of their products.
If you enjoy the game now, bully for you, but don't tell me what I should and should not get over. You're effectively, knowingly playing the equivelent of stolen goods and IMO that makes you no better the theives who "stole" it.
Good answer above. But is it not fair to say that people such as myself (who was like most in here who hated NGE and SOE for changing a great game) who play the game and enjoy it should be able to continue playing the game without making a post here thats positive without 400 people comenting on how bad the game sucks when i can garuntee 90% of the people who post here havent given the game a chance. You and i have talked about this before and i know you ahve tried it. Honestly though with a few minor keymaps its the same game except you can now instantly play a jedi.
My next question is what happens theoretically speaking the KOTOR Online does come out in 2010, and its worse than NGE. And the game sucks. I mean yes BIOWARE is a great company. But if everything proves true, Jedi will be a starting class. And then most people will be so hung up on SWG style of play that everyone will be demanding BIOWARE release classic servers.
Regarding Bioware, my impression of them is that they make a good game for the sake of making a good game--sort of a pride in craftmanship approach to video games if you will. They seem to really want to make something incredible, and blow people away with it. That's the kind of philosophy that leads to a good product, a good reputation, happy customers etc. It's win/win for all involved.
My experience with SOE is that they want to make something that will take the least amount of effort and bring in the greatest amount of cash. It's like they're being run by a guy whose hooked on the latest "get rich quick" scheme. The quality of the product suffers, customers suffer, the company's reputation suffers. It's lose/lose for all involved.
Also, tbh I'm beyond the classic server option, unless it comes with a change of management at SOE. The current management screws with people, plain and simple, and playing a StarWars MMO isn't worth the headaches and hassles of dealing with SOE as they are now.
And, I tried the NGE twice. The last time was with the option of setting my controls nearly the way I had them pre-cu. I found, however, that the target lock system doesn't function at all like the old style combat. It really wasn't enjoyable to lock on target and auto-attack. In fact, it was just boring. It was boring to watch, and boring to do, and it was over very quickly. The old-style combat was more strategic, had better animations, and took place at a pace that looked awesome and felt enjoyable. Target-lock/auto-fire or point and click combat is still nothing like the original game unfortunately. If you enjoy it, that's cool; I'm glad for you tbh. It's not what I enjoy, and I've found what I enjoy in other gaming experiences.
Also, the other game companies have never (that's right not even once) told me one thing about their game and done another. They've never disabled items that I paid for or worked for (not even once), never deleted any professions, locked up my pets, insulted me on their forums etc. etc. They've also provided customer support for the 3 bugs I encountered over the course of 2.5 years. That's right, 3 bugs in over 2 years. Once an npc was stuck in a wall, and CSR responded to my petition in under 10 minutes to unstick the NPC. When I had the same problem with SOE, I waited over 6 months for a response in the form of a dev post that said they were looking into it.
So, like Suvroc I enjoy keeping in touch with people who experienced SWG. We share something in common, and it's fun to chat. I also continue to encourage SOE to get their act together for the sake of fellow gamers, and until they do, I like to highlight things so people can make an informed decision about playing their stuff.
P.S. Wow that car analogy fits SWG and SOE's treatment of its customers in so many ways. Nicely done.
P.P.S. The OP asks what SWG is inferior to? Are you kidding? Play WoW for a while, and if you need to (which you probably won't) see how their customer service is. Play EVE, or City of Heroes/City of Villains. See how well things actually work. See how the games are well planned, and well delivered. See how your accomplishments are honoured. See what it's like to actually be treated with common decency. One of the reasons I won't play something made by SOE now, is that I know what it feels like to be treated well and play a functional and enjoyable product. There's no comparison really. SOE has a history of treating people like utter crap relative to the industry standard. Also post after post on the SOE boards says that at best the current game "isn't that bad. It's not as good as pre-cu, but it's isn't that bad anymore." If these posts are any reflection of consumer satisfaction, SWG is even inferior to itself, the way it was a few years ago, before SOE tried to copy WoW and failed.
Government regulation of the MMO industry is inevitable. Why? Because of companies like SOE. SOE has shown no self restraint at all, no self regulation of it's power.
I can say with confidence that this is a statement of fact. One of my roles,in addition to being a professor and researcher, is as a policy consultant to government, generally at the federal level. Many other high stakes issues tend to occupy legislators and their advisors. However, when corporations pull what SOE did with the ToOW and the NGE, and it affects hundreds of thousands of people, it does not go unnoticed. Oh it's still item 1003 on the list of things to do, but it is noticed.
People are aware of relevant legislation, and the current loopholes that SOE seems to manipulate to cover its coporate "assets". It's only a matter of time before loopholes are closed, and legislation is drafted to address virtual worlds and their impact on consumers.
What I profoundly want to say to people like Smed and SOE though is this: your unethical business practices are going to cost legislators and their advisors a huge amount of tax dollars and an untold amount of absolutely wasted time. This is money and time that could and should be put towards solving real problems for real people. But since your business practices unethically relieve real people of their real money on a grand scale, your behaviour will have to be addressed at some point. What a waste.
My next question is what happens theoretically speaking the KOTOR Online does come out in 2010, and its worse than NGE. And the game sucks. I mean yes BIOWARE is a great company. But if everything proves true, Jedi will be a starting class. And then most people will be so hung up on SWG style of play that everyone will be demanding BIOWARE release classic servers.
What? This is one of the most unintelligent thing I've read on these forums. Bioware did not create SWG classic. Why would anyone ask for them to release it? Why would you assume that our hatred (or strong dislike for some of us) of SOE transfer over to Bioware? It's not like they implemented the NGE, showed a lack of ethics or attempted to get money from us using false advertisement.
Give me a break. If you like the NGE fine. But you probably have better luck recruiting somewhere other than the SWG veteran refuge forums. The only reason I can think that you are here is to start a fight.
Hi I too played SWG up till NGE and completely agree with a lot of the arguments put forward.
I would be interested to know whether SOE are protected by stating "Game Experience May Change DUring Online Play" on the game case
That warning just means that SOE is not responsible for bad experiences you have as a result of playing "online." They can't guarantee that someone won't be an idiot to you.
The user agreement, affords them some protection, particularly regarding their option to modify the game over time. However, this agreement is not binding in some respects in some jurisdictions.
Furthermore, the user agreement does not enable them to commit fraud; that is knowlingly promote one product or service while they are planning to in fact deliver something different to the customer after payment is received. That is the allegation made against SOE regarding the Trials of Obi Wan expansion and the NGE.
SOE avoided civil action by offering refunds to everyone they duped into buying the ToOW with promises of items and features for professions that they knew they were going to delete. By providing these refunds they rendered civil action moot. Everyone was offered what they would probably seek in a civil suit anyways.
Criminal law, in my view, is still relevant to the Trials of Obi Wan marketting, and the delivery of the NGE. My opinion is, however, that you'd have to prove that SOE knowlingly misled people about the service/product they were planning to deliver. Much of the marketting in question was done online and has been deleted. Remaining online documentation has been "cleansed" it would appear. Also, the criminal justice system in my jurisdiction is not up to speed regarding how to apply certain laws to virtual environments. In fact a colleague of mine is a Crown Attorney (prosecutor in Canadian criminal court). I know that he has absolutely no idea what an MMO is, and it would take some time for me to explain to him the ins and outs of how they work, and how consumer rights legislation might apply to this relatively new field.
It's very likely that legislation will be drafted that addresses business ethics and virtual products in the near future. Until then, SOE may on some level "get away with" questionable behaviour. They have of course been found guilty in the court of public opinion, in that most of their subscribers voted with their feet and cancelled their subscriptions. They continue to suffer the natural consequences of their actions in that many MMO gamers avoid all of their products like the plague.
Saay, I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners. What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree. A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour. No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment. Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.
Comments
Hi I too played SWG up till NGE and completely agree with a lot of the arguments put forward.
I would be interested to know whether SOE are protected by stating "Game Experience May Change DUring Online Play" on the game case
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While I have a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint and won't go back to SWG myself, I still must point out that this last paragraph is hard to quantify. Sucessful how? I don't doubt SOE are still making cash, EQ2 is still doing well and they will still be making money of SWG's new players. Plus, I seriously doubt that 'most gamers on this planet' ever even visit these forums
No - SWG Vets may have blown off steam and given vent to their anger here (no bad thing) and made many good cases for classic servers and the like (and yes, I would probably resub to play on them) but don't kid yourself that any meaningful revenge has been enacted upon SOE, or (to be blunt) that the majority of non-SWG players give a rats ass one way or the other.....
I respectfully disagree with some of what you said.
I DO agree that most people don't care about SWG at all. However, the drastic backlash that SOE suffered on the internet from SWG Veterans has been substantial, to say the least.
Vets have been vocal. Blog after blog has reached thousands of readers and the outlook as whole, on SWG, has been biased by the reaction of these Vets. Don't sell their voice short. They have had success.
SOE isn't making that much money off of SWG, if any.
Thanks for the polite response - I don't mean to sell the vet's short, for sure. I admire that people are passionate enough about a game to be so vocal. I'll even agree that SWG has probably suffered as a direct result of the ire of the vets...
I guess I just don't think that SOE overall are going to be noticably troubled by the anger of the Vets, as they do have other games to rely on - games that are generally doign OK - even if SWG disappears off the radar. And I also think that, as time goes by, people simply aren't going to be put of future SOE games because of the Vet's anger at SOE, however justifiable that anger is. SWG is pretty much (as far as I can tell) already regarded (perhaps due to the vocal activity of the Vets, arguably) as a dated game; great in it's day but already fading from gaming conciousness. And as it fades the relevance of the Vet's anger, to other gamers at least, fades also....
My opinion, of course, and I do respect your right to disagree. I wish you well.
----------------------------
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what size my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
poetic irony...
When SWG dies, so too does the strength of the vets voice against SOE.
I actually doubt it though. SOE didn't need the NGE to spur hatred for that company. They have made MANY mistakes on every game they have touched. I think the tales of SWG will live long past the game...simply because they will remain relevant anytime someone begins to discuss a mistake made in any other MMO they run.
You mean that I can log on and play my Master Pistoleer-/Master C/H and another hybred on the other account ?? that I had over 4,000 hours of my time invested in...
Think your the one that needs to get over it..I for one never will.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Not so much this...
Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
But more likely this...
Sec. 238.4 Switch after sale.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
SOE advertised, promoted, and sold pre orders for TOOW when they well knew that what they were advertising would not be in the game within 2 weeks of charging for the expansion.
That is premeditated fraud. And clearly a crime, an interstate felony in fact.
man OP, your in the wrong place to tell veterans to stop complaining.
let the flames begin huh? you *********
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USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
There can certainly be levels of acceptable changes as there can be levels of unaccpetable changes. For example, changing the numbers on a specific skill I think is accpetable. Another example, removing nearly all the classes/professions is unacceptable.Changing the core game mechanics should not be accpetable. We as consumers need a certain level of assurance that the product we play resembles the product we bought.
As far as regulations restricting companies, well I can promise you that those companies will adapt. With so much potential money out there they certainly wont walk away from the industry because of a few inconvenient rules. In fact it would probably do the industry (specifically SoE) good as they will spend more time ensuring their product works before releasing it.
And lastly, concerning your example of a grocery store what would happen if you bought a small piece of that store then paid to go in on a monthly basis? What if you paid a year in advance? What if that grocery store wasn't losing money but actually still making quite a bit? Nah, I say analogy doesn't even come close to an accurate representation of what's happened here.
Government regulation of the MMO industry is inevitable. Why? Because of companies like SOE. SOE has shown no self restraint at all, no self regulation of it's power.
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Not so much this...
Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
But more likely this...
Sec. 238.4 Switch after sale.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
Saay, I really don't think you are comprehending...
In November 2005, SWG: An Empire Divided became a NEW and DIFFERENT game, SWG: NGE.
The ENGINE mechanics changed. The games are derived from 2 different sets of code. As different as an Amphibian and a Mammal. Different DNA.
So for the gamers who put in 2+ years of work on SWG: An Empire Divided and bought EXPANSIONS for SWG: An Empire Divided, there was NO future for their gaming experience with their game, it was over.
2 DIFFERENT GAMES.
People PAID for expansions for 1 game, then were suddenly given a DIFFERENT game to play. That, Saay, is illegal. SOE didn't offer refunds until the backlash was so severe they knew a class action suit was coming if they didn't.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying so hard to tell you.
Tecmo Bowl.
You know you just made me think of something.
We always blame SOE for SWG.. and talk about things such as what you posted.
Anyway as I'm reading what you typed I'm thinking about the crap they did to the movies. Have you ever seen the latest "remake" of EP 4, 5 and 6...?
The crap they added and how at the end of EP6.. instead of seeing the actor who used to be Anakin in the blue glow... we now see the EP 1, 2 and 3 version.
I'll honestly never buy the movies on DVD... not because I didn't like 1, 2 and 3 alright (ya I know I'm one of the few that didn't mind).
But because... of the radical change they did to the movies I saw when they released was back (4, 5, and 6).
How odd.. radical remake of the older movies.. and radical remake of the MMO.. I wonder if SOE bought the rights to the movies or something... *ponders* or .. is it.. something else... hmm
No need to flame you but I will respond to your post...
It's really more complicated than your simplistic point of view dicates.
1.) This was a virtual world in which people invested their time and their emotion.
2.) SOE/LA acted in a borderline illegal manner with the expansions hitting JUST before the NGE, which was developed in TOTAL secret from the playerbase.
There is no question that SOE/LA acted 100% unethically, but it also stands to reason they broke the law. The term "the Law" is thrown around but SOE rightly could have been sued (and I honestly am surprised they weren't) for the fact that SWG, as an MMO, is traded from State to State within the USA. Now SOE is dealing with Federal Law, not just each individual state.
The ONLY reason SOE wasn't immediately hit with a class action suit is because MMO gaming is still fairly new and internet laws haven't even scratched the surface of what they will someday involve.
The SWG Pre-CU playerbase bought a game, invested millions of hours into a virtual world that was unexpectedly taken from them and replaced by something they DID NOT purchase nor invest time into.
Someday this will most likely be a violation of "the Law" itself. However, for the purposes of 2005 SOE got off the hook. Still, they did break the law when they performed a "bait-and-switch" tactic on their customers.
SWG Veterans are smart gamers and for the most part I have seen, smart people. Their efforts to avenge the way they were treated has been successful. Most of the gamers on this planet don't trust SOE, they won't play SWG, and they will have reservations about playing an SOE game again.
While i understand your view completely, and believe me i would have, and did, say the same thing when the NGE hit - the reason why they werent sued, nor will games be sued for this, is that it is there right - they didnt take anything from you, (well apart from those who subscribed on a yearly basis, but that was their risk) although we all invested time in the game, in the end it wasnt really investing it, it was simply using the time to enjoy the entertainment an MMO provides - as soon as you stop paying (due to the NGE), you havent, in the law's and in the MMO companies' eyes, lost anything. Now although there actions may have been unethical in many's views, they didnt break the law, and if laws prohibiting this were enforced, the MMO industry, i believe, would be badly hit, because it would take control out of investor's hands (companies), which they wont like, and consequently there will be less investment. Unfortunately, they are and, i suspect, will be allowed to keep anything they have planned a total secret if they want. (the whole "CU is here to stay" issue is a bit more debatable, and is, i suppose, potentially in some ways illegal)
First of all Saay, allow me to correct you...
You still see this from the point of view of someone who isn't getting it...
Not so much this...
Sec. 238.0 Bait advertising defined.1
Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell. Its purpose is to switch consumers from buying the advertised merchandise, in order to sell something else, usually at a higher price or on a basis more advantageous to the advertiser. The primary aim of a bait advertisement is to obtain leads as to persons interested in buying merchandise of the type so advertised.
But more likely this...
Sec. 238.4 Switch after sale.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if the initial sale was in good faith, and not a stratagem to sell other merchandise, are:
I don't believe this has been attempted but I think it is possible for it to be.
I believe a case could have been made against SOE for the marketing, advertisement, and SALE of an expansion that would weeks later be worthless to the paying customer.
I will further remind you that Cyber-Law is new, and though SOE didn't currently violate the Law regarding their treatment of SWG, in the future this will undoubtedly be a violation of the avatar and owner.
An MMO is NOT a single purchase item. It is a virtual world created for a person to invest time and MONEY into developing a character. Consumers pay monthly on good faith that the developer will keep, within reason, the parameters set forth when said consumer purchased said game. When a developer deceptively forces the paying consumer to change within a new set of parameters (of which the property can be considered a NEW entity) -- Meaning overhauls to game engines, etc, that company will someday be held accountable for that deceit.
In 2005 SOE didn't break THAT law, because there isn't one. However, a case for "Bait-and-Switch" can CERTAINLY be made.
SOE spent 7 - 8 months SECRETLY developing a NEW game. SWG became a new game when the NGE went live. SOE sold an expansion WEEKS before the SECRET new game was launched. They avoided 100% violation of the law by at least announcing the NGE just before it went live but is that enough?
Are they still accountable? I believe a case could have been made for it. Also, like I said, SWG is an online MMO with severs all over the world, could it be subject to Interstate Commerce? It is developed and published for profit, so I believe a case could be made for that also.
Firstly, Mustafar was not entirely worthless when the NGE hit, and secondly, they were, potentially doing something illegal at that point, hence the refunds. You still cant seem to understand, that with a product such as an MMO, you cant just throw in some regulation that states you cant make changes to the game without full consent - you may have a small minority opposed. You may argue "no, just major game changes", how do you define major? what if the game soarly needs a combat engine upgrade and all but a few players want it? Also, although you invested time into your character - that means nothing, you were paying for the entertainment that grinding or whatever brought you - this is how companies and the law should and i suspect will see it because you havent really done anything yourself, the MMO company could russle up an avatar that you've spent years creating in a couple of minutes.
Regulations such as these would restrict efficiency and choice and put companies at far to much risk with little control, thus the market would shrink. How would you feel about opening up a grocery store, then you want to slightly change your emphasis because other businesses already hold the grocery store market in your area, so you want to sell more hardware and tools or whatever, but one out of 100s of your customers (or any number out of your customers) says that they would prefer if you stayed as a grocery store - you wouldnt be to pleased because you'd have to stay as a business loosing money because of a few people.
Saay, I really don't think you are comprehending...
In November 2005, SWG: An Empire Divided became a NEW and DIFFERENT game, SWG: NGE.
The ENGINE mechanics changed. The games are derived from 2 different sets of code. As different as an Amphibian and a Mammal. Different DNA.
So for the gamers who put in 2+ years of work on SWG: An Empire Divided and bought EXPANSIONS for SWG: An Empire Divided, there was NO future for their gaming experience with their game, it was over.
2 DIFFERENT GAMES.
People PAID for expansions for 1 game, then were suddenly given a DIFFERENT game to play. That, Saay, is illegal. SOE didn't offer refunds until the backlash was so severe they knew a class action suit was coming if they didn't.
Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying so hard to tell you.
I assure you, i comprehend you entirely. Yes Pre-NGE and NGE are very different experiences (though with mostly the same areas, weapons, avatars etc); I accepted that the ToOW thing was illegal, if you look above, hence why they gave out refunds. Point is, you've altered what you were saying in the beginning about the NGE itself being illegal and just focused on the ToOW expansion. Please dont patronise me when you're trying to argue a point i already agree with..
Saay,
I NEVER said the NGE was illegal. I said "someday it will be illegal"... Like I said, Cyber Law is brand new, and we will see more and more suits as the industry grows. We are already seeing Blizzard win suits against Gold Miners.
What LEC/SOE did was highly unethical, though not currently illegal. However, the marketing and sale of the expansion made for a game that would be vanquished only days later, in secrecy, is illegal, of which we both agree.
A Court is going to see that gamers devote time and resources (and time is considered a resource in some aspects) to an MMO, and though the developer maintains the right to change the game over time, that doesn't mean that players cannot sue if they are treated with poor ethics or even slightly illegal behaviour.
No matter what language SOE/LEC puts on the box to their game you can NEVER take away a persons right to sue for improper treatment.
Virtual worlds are new, but the time is coming where they will be regulated more heavily. Precedent has to be set, and only time will do that, along with companies like SOE/LEC.
Tecmo Bowl.
But none the less BM is a poor copy of hunter....
Something is wrong with the way you guys conduct yourselves after 2 years.
Yes there is also something wrong with people coming in here never seeing them before and call us wrong for talking about a game its our forum our subject dont like it then dont come here . Its just that simple..
OP i can enlighten you...
Itis my right to post here and i post here because my statements are not allowed at the sucker O boards i had to move here thanks to the fascistic like ban and mute behavior or $OE moderation.You seem to forget that the company forced us to leave betraying us by developing with our money a game which they knowed will drive us away and will destroy our belongings, all in the hidden and in front of us telling us lies about.
I will continue to use the power of posting my point of views about that company and the state of the sucky NGE and the inferior money sucking strategies $OE develops and on the other site delivers inferior crap.
It also feels good to remember them what they did every day till a satisfactory solution is reached were the vast majority of Star Wars fans can enjoy a Star Wars MMO.
And btw you being satisfied by something inferior and coming here to defend it is more disturbing IMO.
Is Star Wars MMO the big vision for all of us be part of it or the way for some small mean man to make fast $cash? - i just love it our community has given the right answer and will continue to answer this properly.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Something is wrong with the way you guys conduct yourselves after 2 years.
Why do you care?
Above in red stood out to me.
What would you consider a satisfactory solution??? If its the game getting it plug pulled is a staisfactory solution then of course this will happen in time. Every game will eventually be shut down.
SO YES!!!!!!!! you win! You showed Sony lol.
Above in green.
Inferior to what game?
OP, say you buy a nice new car with a 20k mile warrenty and the works. Your driving in your new ride and discover the blinkers don't work, it's mileage is less than advertised, and it's interior smells like old cheese. Despite these problems you still love the lil thing, so you take it in for repairs. And while the dealers details the inside and fixes the blinker you are told parts for the gas problem won't arrive for three months. Three months later you take it in, but on it's return are told you'll still get bad milage but you got sexah new seat covers!, please come back in 3 months, we PROMISE we'll be able to fix it then. Oh and we messed up your brakes, drive carefull till then
. 3 months later they fix the brakes, make the gass milage worse and btw, your headlights are always on when the keys in the ignition, not sure why, but we'll fix that as soon as we figure it out. A month later you take it in to get the promised fixes and when you return to pick up your car your givven a different one, and they say we think you'll like this car better even tho it's nothing like the one you bought. No you don't have a choice and no you can't have your money back. Would you just forget being treated in such a manner? Or would you tell all and sundry about the deceptive practices of said company.
And no I would not go back to a classic server. Looking at the way SOE has been dealing with some of their other games tells me they are still opperating in the same way. I'll not give them a penny, h3ll i won't even play a free trial of their products.
If you enjoy the game now, bully for you, but don't tell me what I should and should not get over. You're effectively, knowingly playing the equivelent of stolen goods and IMO that makes you no better the theives who "stole" it.
Regarding Bioware, my impression of them is that they make a good game for the sake of making a good game--sort of a pride in craftmanship approach to video games if you will. They seem to really want to make something incredible, and blow people away with it. That's the kind of philosophy that leads to a good product, a good reputation, happy customers etc. It's win/win for all involved.
My experience with SOE is that they want to make something that will take the least amount of effort and bring in the greatest amount of cash. It's like they're being run by a guy whose hooked on the latest "get rich quick" scheme. The quality of the product suffers, customers suffer, the company's reputation suffers. It's lose/lose for all involved.
Also, tbh I'm beyond the classic server option, unless it comes with a change of management at SOE. The current management screws with people, plain and simple, and playing a StarWars MMO isn't worth the headaches and hassles of dealing with SOE as they are now.
And, I tried the NGE twice. The last time was with the option of setting my controls nearly the way I had them pre-cu. I found, however, that the target lock system doesn't function at all like the old style combat. It really wasn't enjoyable to lock on target and auto-attack. In fact, it was just boring. It was boring to watch, and boring to do, and it was over very quickly. The old-style combat was more strategic, had better animations, and took place at a pace that looked awesome and felt enjoyable. Target-lock/auto-fire or point and click combat is still nothing like the original game unfortunately. If you enjoy it, that's cool; I'm glad for you tbh. It's not what I enjoy, and I've found what I enjoy in other gaming experiences.
Also, the other game companies have never (that's right not even once) told me one thing about their game and done another. They've never disabled items that I paid for or worked for (not even once), never deleted any professions, locked up my pets, insulted me on their forums etc. etc. They've also provided customer support for the 3 bugs I encountered over the course of 2.5 years. That's right, 3 bugs in over 2 years. Once an npc was stuck in a wall, and CSR responded to my petition in under 10 minutes to unstick the NPC. When I had the same problem with SOE, I waited over 6 months for a response in the form of a dev post that said they were looking into it.
So, like Suvroc I enjoy keeping in touch with people who experienced SWG. We share something in common, and it's fun to chat. I also continue to encourage SOE to get their act together for the sake of fellow gamers, and until they do, I like to highlight things so people can make an informed decision about playing their stuff.
P.S. Wow that car analogy fits SWG and SOE's treatment of its customers in so many ways. Nicely done.
P.P.S. The OP asks what SWG is inferior to? Are you kidding? Play WoW for a while, and if you need to (which you probably won't) see how their customer service is. Play EVE, or City of Heroes/City of Villains. See how well things actually work. See how the games are well planned, and well delivered. See how your accomplishments are honoured. See what it's like to actually be treated with common decency. One of the reasons I won't play something made by SOE now, is that I know what it feels like to be treated well and play a functional and enjoyable product. There's no comparison really. SOE has a history of treating people like utter crap relative to the industry standard. Also post after post on the SOE boards says that at best the current game "isn't that bad. It's not as good as pre-cu, but it's isn't that bad anymore." If these posts are any reflection of consumer satisfaction, SWG is even inferior to itself, the way it was a few years ago, before SOE tried to copy WoW and failed.
People are aware of relevant legislation, and the current loopholes that SOE seems to manipulate to cover its coporate "assets". It's only a matter of time before loopholes are closed, and legislation is drafted to address virtual worlds and their impact on consumers.
What I profoundly want to say to people like Smed and SOE though is this: your unethical business practices are going to cost legislators and their advisors a huge amount of tax dollars and an untold amount of absolutely wasted time. This is money and time that could and should be put towards solving real problems for real people. But since your business practices unethically relieve real people of their real money on a grand scale, your behaviour will have to be addressed at some point. What a waste.
Give me a break. If you like the NGE fine. But you probably have better luck recruiting somewhere other than the SWG veteran refuge forums. The only reason I can think that you are here is to start a fight.
That warning just means that SOE is not responsible for bad experiences you have as a result of playing "online." They can't guarantee that someone won't be an idiot to you.
The user agreement, affords them some protection, particularly regarding their option to modify the game over time. However, this agreement is not binding in some respects in some jurisdictions.
Furthermore, the user agreement does not enable them to commit fraud; that is knowlingly promote one product or service while they are planning to in fact deliver something different to the customer after payment is received. That is the allegation made against SOE regarding the Trials of Obi Wan expansion and the NGE.
SOE avoided civil action by offering refunds to everyone they duped into buying the ToOW with promises of items and features for professions that they knew they were going to delete. By providing these refunds they rendered civil action moot. Everyone was offered what they would probably seek in a civil suit anyways.
Criminal law, in my view, is still relevant to the Trials of Obi Wan marketting, and the delivery of the NGE. My opinion is, however, that you'd have to prove that SOE knowlingly misled people about the service/product they were planning to deliver. Much of the marketting in question was done online and has been deleted. Remaining online documentation has been "cleansed" it would appear. Also, the criminal justice system in my jurisdiction is not up to speed regarding how to apply certain laws to virtual environments. In fact a colleague of mine is a Crown Attorney (prosecutor in Canadian criminal court). I know that he has absolutely no idea what an MMO is, and it would take some time for me to explain to him the ins and outs of how they work, and how consumer rights legislation might apply to this relatively new field.
It's very likely that legislation will be drafted that addresses business ethics and virtual products in the near future. Until then, SOE may on some level "get away with" questionable behaviour. They have of course been found guilty in the court of public opinion, in that most of their subscribers voted with their feet and cancelled their subscriptions. They continue to suffer the natural consequences of their actions in that many MMO gamers avoid all of their products like the plague.
Woe betide a world with heavy regulations on everything, because implementing such regulations goes against so many things we value. Im saying that i hope very much that legislation like that isnt put in place, because it is not needed - a precendent is set, one that will be observed by MMO companies now and those to come, who will know not to make that ridiculous mistake; they dont need to put in laws restricting and shrinking the market! You may argue that some company may be stupid enough to do it again, and that with laws like this they would be forced to return it to the original game engine - but then continuing to play this game would go against everything you guys fight for, as it would be playing a game owned by a company who clearly doesnt deserve to run the game in your eyes, since they changed it in the first place, disregarding player's views/wants. Whichever way you look at it - with or without the laws, companies are now less likely to make drastic changes, but without the laws, you dont run the risk of causing market failure.