Any old school ultima online player will tell you the samething. UO was my first MMO and I still haven't been able to find a game that brough me the same kind of feeling as UO did. I've played everything there is to play and currently I am playing WoW, which is an ok game but will never hold a candle to UO no matter how much more advanced it is.
The OP is right. The one thing UO was able to do more than any other MMO was create a since of real community. With servers not being huge, I think usually 1000-1500 players per a server and not a massively huge type of world things were different.
In UO when you walked into a dungeon you weren't scared of the monsters in the dungeon. You were scared in so focused on finding the red name to pop up on the screen so you could recall before they had a chance to kill you.
I think it's something that old school UO players will only want in a game. It's a niche community, we all saw what EA did to UO.
Fact is not a lot of game developers will take a risk at releasing a game like that. Too many people whine way to much.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
Ah the age old PVP debate. I say if the game has it from release leave it in and expand on it. Basically people arguing fall into 2 categories. 1. Real PVPers - Want to keep PVP in the game and would like other to learn how to play the game and stop crying.
2. Carebears - OMG you are all killers in real life and you like to eat babies!!!
I think there is a little more definition here... I suggest 4 categories:
1) 'Hardcore' PKers - - They like to refer to themselves as hardcore, real PvP people. They believe killing someone 15 levels lower is a challange and fun and will 'teach' that low level newbie how to play the game by following them around and killing them until they force the person to bow or something else. That's how it is in real life of course (sarcasm in case you missed it).
2) Real PvPers - - Want PvP to add realism, balance, and challenge to the game, while also adding consequences to players actions. They believe human players are more challenging, hence more fun, to play against. They are not for killing a low level newbie for no reason (being annoying IS a reason) and believe if they do, they deserved to be punished (and they realize that the low level player is not the one who should be punishing them since that's unrealistic).
3) Common PvEers - - Don't want to be griefed by category 1 players. Believe the only way to stop that is to: a) Not have PvP at all, b) Have PvP zones and non-PvP zones, or c) Have some PvP flagging systems or the like. They have fun with the grind and don't mind playing against poor AI if that's what it takes to not be harashed.
4) True Carebears - - PvP is an evil word and only real life murders, criminals, and juvenile delinqunce would want that. Believe that no other player should affect their gameplay even though they are playing a Massively Multiplayer Game.
I'd guess most people fall into category 3, then 2... with 1 and 4 being a distant 3rd and 4th place. The problem is category 1 people RUIN the game for category 3 and 4 people (most category 2 people will just deal). If you solve the category 1 problem, I believe you would get just about all the category 2 and 3 people and have a GREAT MMO!!! We can only dream (at the moment).
Originally posted by pkSlayde Originally posted by symphonius only pussies don't like pvp all these noobs want to do is farm their precious items so they can show it off without any sense of danger whatsoever UGH IT SICKENS ME
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
I know, for one, this isn't a viable model for a commercial service like an MMO. Open PVP without consequence is retarded. And theme parks are very boring and limited in story progression. Both are fundamentally limited to the peripheral of the market right now (excluding WoW on both since it's success is mostly an economic one rather than solely its feature set implementation) as it should be. The long term we're seeing PVP incorporated into the gameplay, but not at the exploitation of players who do not wish to partake in it. A good example of this is EVE, it has large segments of its playspace devoted to PVP, but someone (a carebear or trade-skiller or whatever) else must furnish most of the goodies (ships, ammo, implants, components for capital ships and stations, and so on). Luckily, in EVE this is all very easy to come by, but still hard to produce (no instant push-button crafting system) making the market the engine for progress for those not wishing to PVP.
So, to the OP, again, it's a feature not a panacea. Nor is any other feature a panacea for any reason.
Originally posted by mrudis Originally posted by Briansho Ah the age old PVP debate. I say if the game has it from release leave it in and expand on it. Basically people arguing fall into 2 categories. 1. Real PVPers - Want to keep PVP in the game and would like other to learn how to play the game and stop crying.
2. Carebears - OMG you are all killers in real life and you like to eat babies!!!
I think there is a little more definition here... I suggest 4 categories:
1) 'Hardcore' PKers - - They like to refer to themselves as hardcore, real PvP people. They believe killing someone 15 levels lower is a challange and fun and will 'teach' that low level newbie how to play the game by following them around and killing them until they force the person to bow or something else. That's how it is in real life of course (sarcasm in case you missed it). 2) Real PvPers - - Want PvP to add realism, balance, and challenge to the game, while also adding consequences to players actions. They believe human players are more challenging, hence more fun, to play against. They are not for killing a low level newbie for no reason (being annoying IS a reason) and believe if they do, they deserved to be punished (and they realize that the low level player is not the one who should be punishing them since that's unrealistic). 3) Common PvEers - - Don't want to be griefed by category 1 players. Believe the only way to stop that is to: a) Not have PvP at all, b) Have PvP zones and non-PvP zones, or c) Have some PvP flagging systems or the like. They have fun with the grind and don't mind playing against poor AI if that's what it takes to not be harashed. 4) True Carebears - - PvP is an evil word and only real life murders, criminals, and juvenile delinqunce would want that. Believe that no other player should affect their gameplay even though they are playing a Massively Multiplayer Game. I'd guess most people fall into category 3, then 2... with 1 and 4 being a distant 3rd and 4th place. The problem is category 1 people RUIN the game for category 3 and 4 people (most category 2 people will just deal). If you solve the category 1 problem, I believe you would get just about all the category 2 and 3 people and have a GREAT MMO!!! We can only dream (at the moment). Just my $0.02
That's fairly accurate (I use accurate loosely here...) I believe, but the category 1 people are what we call griefers. These are the jerkwads that ruin both PVE and PVP. In PVE they're the jerks that love to build up aggro trains and demolish a PUG. In PVP, they're the ones that wait just outside of a town ignoring same-level or near-level people, but always tackle the level 1 character for no good reason other than to harass. Griefers are a universal problem for any multiplayer environment/game as the only real mechanisms that can keep them in check is either an open PVP system (where the level 1 character happens to have a friend who's level 50 decked out with the best template in town) or a ranking/alignment system (so now the guards aligned with the level 1 character's faction can tackle him anytime they wish for whatever amount of time allotted...). Frankly, I think both will work well if it's PVP + consequence. Not PVP + no restrictions (UO showed how much of a failure that was, along with Shadowbane).
In the end, griefers ruin everyone's fun time, not just 'carebears.'
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
By that same token, you shouldn't bitch when you pay for a game that doesn't allow you to gank people just because you can.
I also have to disagree with the topic. I mean, it would be rather difficult to integrate PK into Tetris or Pac-Man. Although it would probably add just enough spice to Madden that I would actually play it. Come to think of it, I vaguely remember playing a game just like that....
BTW Slayde, good job staying in character. I know we're on a forum and all that, but I don't think I'd be able to put on the performance you have and not want to vomit at my own fucktardery.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Ok back on topic,it is true if a game has pvp as a component then pk is to be expected.
however i feel the best method to include and open ffa pvp system would be to allow only one
character,and have permpa death, so if you want to pk for the other guys stuff then you best be ready to get pked for yours and the other guys stuff. Then everyone that got pked rerolls thier one char to try again.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
Go ask Blizzard how much not having pk has hurt them.
ah but check out their community it is filled with spammers whiners and people who bitch. People have left because these people piss them off. that is where they have been hurt.
There are a lot more people who quit because of open PKing. In fact, I remember UO developers saying that's exactly why they dumbed down the open pk of Ultima Online somewhat, because they found out the numbers of people leaving over player killing to be enormous.
You're not the first person to say "Every game needs PK!" But saying that every game needs PK is just as ignorant as saying a PK game can't do well. There are different audiences within the mmorpg genre, some people like heavy open PVP focused MMO's, such as Lineage which still has both games close to 1 million subscribers, while other people like PVE focused MMO's.
Some like to play SIngle player First Person Shooters, other people like Multiplayer versus first person shooters.
Your whole terms of gamers are incorrect.
The term Carebear is made up by elitist pvp players who should do everyone a favor and kindly shut the hell up. There are simply people who don't like PVP. They don't go to whine to other people to save them, they will quit the game and go to a PVE game, that's why so many players left to Everquest after it came out.
Yep.
It always amuses me when people use the term carebear in CoX PvP, a game which I have no desire to PvP in but I like the PvE. It amuses me because unlike most of those wusses I fight people (legally) in real life and yet they think they are internet tough guys. Seriously its hilarious.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
What game are we talking about here? Which mainstream popular MMORPG offers FFA PvP with full corpse looting? Besides EVE, which isn't really mainstream.
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic. PvP griefers are again trying to insult our intelligence by attempting, through the use of limited vocabulary and their warped beliefs, to prove that FFA PvP with full corpse looting is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It isn't. That's why Trammel was so populated.
As for me, I enjoy PvP simply because fighting a human opponent is much more fun than fighting a bot. I don't need to loot the person's corpse and take his hard earned items to feel superior. I also don't need to kill someone 20 levels bellow me to feel good about myself. I like a fair fight. However, as PvP combat in most MMOs is defined by character stats, I don't see being a PK something to brag about. You're not bragging about your PvP skills, you're bragging about your ability to remorselessly grief someone just because you can. And although I did PK for a bit on Atlantic, I find it funny when people attempt to associate player skill with ganking. In my opinion, PvP in MMOs is 25% skill, 5% luck and 70% based on items and stats.
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
No actualy they do not. See they pay a monthly fee to enjoy the game how they like. If their idea of fun is standing around the bank and showing off their fancy black dyed items and frost staves than it's their right to do so.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
What game are we talking about here? Which mainstream popular MMORPG offers FFA PvP with full corpse looting? Besides EVE, which isn't really mainstream.
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic. PvP griefers are again trying to insult our intelligence by attempting, through the use of limited vocabulary and their warped beliefs, to prove that FFA PvP with full corpse looting is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It isn't. That's why Trammel was so populated.
As for me, I enjoy PvP simply because fighting a human opponent is much more fun than fighting a bot. I don't need to loot the person's corpse and take his hard earned items to feel superior. I also don't need to kill someone 20 levels bellow me to feel good about myself. I like a fair fight. However, as PvP combat in most MMOs is defined by character stats, I don't see being a PK something to brag about. You're not bragging about your PvP skills, you're bragging about your ability to remorselessly grief someone just because you can. And although I did PK for a bit on Atlantic, I find it funny when people attempt to associate player skill with ganking. In my opinion, PvP in MMOs is 25% skill, 5% luck and 70% based on items and stats.
Shhh your trying to use logic, most of us know that experience has shown that FFA PvP is not popular and that servers with it are like a ghost town. Many posters on here show exactly why that is the case....
What game are we talking about here? Which mainstream popular MMORPG offers FFA PvP with full corpse looting...
You is right, ’corse. FFA PVP wiv corpse lootin’ ain’t popular right now, but I would suggest dat one of da reasonz for dis is da way in which current MMO’z is designed, progression wise.
In a level based game, FFA PVP will alwayz ’ave grieferz in it who like to gank lowa level playerz ’coz attackin’ someone 20 levelz below you is a 100% guaranteed "win", an’ dat’z wot grieferz crave more dan anythin’ else. Dey is essentially cowardly bulliez.
Den dere’z da corpse-lootin’. Today’z MMO’z is way too focused gear. Someone above used da term "’ard-earned gear" which is pretty accurate.
Dat’z why gamez such as UO an’ EVE ’ave da best PVP modelz. FFA PVP in avoidable areaz an’ wiv easily replacable equipment against people whose level of combat skill ain’t easily visible by a floatin’ "level" o’a deir ’eadz.
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic.
Lineage 2, and Shadowbane come directly to mind. The Darktide server on Asheron's Call is still alive and kicking and, as far as I know, Vanguard, and EQ2 both have FFA PvP servers. Let's also not forget Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So what this bullshit about not having any FFA PvP games to play?
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic.
Lineage 2, and Shadowbane come directly to mind. The Darktide server on Asheron's Call is still alive and kicking and, as far as I know, Vanguard, and EQ2 both have FFA PvP servers. Let's also not forget Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So what this bullshit about not having any FFA PvP games to play?
Notice that I said mainstream. I would hardly consider Shadowbane being mainstream. Lineage 2's market is mainly in Asia and I guess I should've clarified that I was talking about western MMOs. The asian MMO market and the western market are different in what appeals to the consumers.
While AC, Vanguard and EQ offer FFA PvP servers, they are not as populated nor as numerous as the normal servers. UO had Siege Perilous but I would be hard pressed to call 1 server as being mainstream.
Notice that I said mainstream. I would hardly consider Shadowbane being mainstream. Lineage 2's market is mainly in Asia and I guess I should've clarified that I was talking about western MMOs. The asian MMO market and the western market are different in what appeals to the consumers.
While AC, Vanguard and EQ offer FFA PvP servers, they are not as populated nor as numerous as the normal servers. UO had Siege Perilous but I would be hard pressed to call 1 server as being mainstream.
The entire problem with your issue comes down to one word..
"mainstream".
With what it costs to make an MMO today... a Mainstream MMO.. wants a Mainstream audience.
You will notice the FFA pvp servers and games.. as you yourself mentioned are low population. There is a reason for this.. and its not something we need a heated flame filled discussion on.
What I saw when potbs launched.. was in many ways what I saw in UO.
In fact I'll try to make this short as I've posted on this subject to many times. Oh and btw I enjoyed UO and played it until 2002.. and mostly enjoyed it pre-trammel.. to give you a view point.. I obviously pvp'd in the game.
anyway short version..
A niche PvP ffa or not.. could be successful. It has to be marketed as a pvp game.. and be happy with the audience it gets. It could get enough subscribers to make a profit... Profit isn't the problem.. the size of the subscriber base companies desire.. seems to be.
So they try to combine the pvp with pve... to lure in the "mainstream" audience.
Then you start to have problems.
I honestly don't think the issues can be conveyed... either you have figured it out on your own by now or you haven't. Or.. anyone trying to explain them will be shot down... etc etc
Which comes back around to... why have all the mainstream (for north america) pvp games.. failed.
Oh and a majority of the problem.. comes from a very small segment of the pvp crowd.. that is:
1) very vocal
2) able to piss off a majority of the player base IN game
Then will cry loudly how the latest pvp game was ruined.. or the care bears won etc.. while taking no blame for their actions which caused this to happen.
Hopefully this is semi cryptic.. funny and a few people get what I tried to say.
Go ask Blizzard how much not having pk has hurt them.
ah but check out their community it is filled with spammers whiners and people who bitch. People have left because these people piss them off. that is where they have been hurt.
Instant classic. Bashing the WoW-community while demanding pking. Seriously, some people.. Case in point: Symphonius.
Notice that I said mainstream. I would hardly consider Shadowbane being mainstream. Lineage 2's market is mainly in Asia and I guess I should've clarified that I was talking about western MMOs. The asian MMO market and the western market are different in what appeals to the consumers.
While AC, Vanguard and EQ offer FFA PvP servers, they are not as populated nor as numerous as the normal servers. UO had Siege Perilous but I would be hard pressed to call 1 server as being mainstream.
The entire problem with your issue comes down to one word..
"mainstream".
With what it costs to make an MMO today... a Mainstream MMO.. wants a Mainstream audience.
You will notice the FFA pvp servers and games.. as you yourself mentioned are low population. There is a reason for this.. and its not something we need a heated flame filled discussion on.
What I saw when potbs launched.. was in many ways what I saw in UO.
In fact I'll try to make this short as I've posted on this subject to many times. Oh and btw I enjoyed UO and played it until 2002.. and mostly enjoyed it pre-trammel.. to give you a view point.. I obviously pvp'd in the game.
anyway short version..
A niche PvP ffa or not.. could be successful. It has to be marketed as a pvp game.. and be happy with the audience it gets. It could get enough subscribers to make a profit... Profit isn't the problem.. the size of the subscriber base companies desire.. seems to be.
So they try to combine the pvp with pve... to lure in the "mainstream" audience.
Then you start to have problems.
I honestly don't think the issues can be conveyed... either you have figured it out on your own by now or you haven't. Or.. anyone trying to explain them will be shot down... etc etc
Which comes back around to... why have all the mainstream (for north america) pvp games.. failed.
Oh and a majority of the problem.. comes from a very small segment of the pvp crowd.. that is:
1) very vocal
2) able to piss off a majority of the player base IN game
Then will cry loudly how the latest pvp game was ruined.. or the care bears won etc.. while taking no blame for their actions which caused this to happen.
Hopefully this is semi cryptic.. funny and a few people get what I tried to say.
Honestly, I think the reason the FFA PvP games fail in North America is because as the user base grows, more and more casual gamers join the market. You know the type: wife, 2 kids and a mortgage. Someone who gets on for an hour or so after dinner. This custmer wants to accomplish something in the hour and have a good time. In other words, he or she wants to be entertained.
Open PvP was ok when UO was in it's infancy because it was basically the only choice for an MMORPG. Not to mention that the demographic consisted mainly of RPers and gamers. They were mostly teenagers and young adults in their early 20's. They had time to dedicate to the game and thus it was easier for them to deal with PKs, bugs and tedious farming, not to mention griefing. Hell, most of them dealt with bullying all the time in school and used online griefing as a way to let out their anger. Then UO started losing customers due to rampant griefing PKs, thus the creation of Trammel.
Now the US demographic is drastically different. Besides the usual teenagers and young adults, you have people of all age groups and social backgrounds playing MMOs. From a 20 year old college student to a 40 year old executive and a 65 year old housewive/grandmother.
Which ties into your other point of PKs ruining their own games. I doubt that most of this new demographic would enjoy getting corpse camped by a few bored teenagers. Hense why open PvP games don't do that well in this market. Not because they aren't fun but because an average person + annonimity = douchebag.
Honestly, I think the reason the FFA PvP games fail in North America is because as the user base grows, more and more casual gamers join the market. You know the type: wife, 2 kids and a mortgage. Someone who gets on for an hour or so after dinner. This custmer wants to accomplish something in the hour and have a good time. In other words, he or she wants to be entertained. Open PvP was ok when UO was in it's infancy because it was basically the only choice for an MMORPG. Not to mention that the demographic consisted mainly of RPers and gamers. They were mostly teenagers and young adults in their early 20's. They had time to dedicate to the game and thus it was easier for them to deal with PKs, bugs and tedious farming, not to mention griefing. Hell, most of them dealt with bullying all the time in school and used online griefing as a way to let out their anger. Then UO started losing customers due to rampant griefing PKs, thus the creation of Trammel. Now the US demographic is drastically different. Besides the usual teenagers and young adults, you have people of all age groups and social backgrounds playing MMOs. From a 20 year old college student to a 40 year old executive and a 65 year old housewive/grandmother. Which ties into your other point of PKs ruining their own games. I doubt that most of this new demographic would enjoy getting corpse camped by a few bored teenagers. Hense why open PvP games don't do that well in this market. Not because they aren't fun but because an average person + annonimity = douchebag.
The problem is from the start this isn't accurate...
FFA PvP didn't fly in UO... that's why we got muder system, penalties.. trammel.
That was reaction from a company that was bleeding subscriptions as EQ1 launched with its stated NO FORCED PVP system... I was in a guild of 300+ as more and more got into EQ beta and leading up to the early 1999 launch.. I ended up in a guild of 2.
You had the same behaviour etc
Of course people who actually wanted to pvp were pissed and made up lots of reasons or reasoning.
It still comes down to the same thing.
There is also the affect that PvP has on the PvE games its incorporated with. Or the other way around.. you have both extremes.
Trials of Atlantis for DAoC was meant to be a PvE experience that wouldn't affect RvR. Nothing could have been further from the truth at the time.
PvP nerfs that destroy classes.. affect PvE players that never PvP.
That's the point..
You make a pvp game you need to market it as a PvP game and support it as a PvP game. I'm not against PvP it can be an enjoyable experience.. but you need to handle it a certain way.
You also have to freely swing the ban stick on that certain segment of the pvp crowd (which imho is a small segment but probably the most visible due to how they act).
This is just my opinion but no open pvp game has been successful in North America.. including UO. Well in a mainsteam way that is...
If trammel had been in UO at launch.. I don't think you would have seen the mass loss of subscribers.. to me EQ1 was junk.. and I just kept going back to UO and left my guild in that other game.
Now I basicly just have a ton of EQ1's to choose from and really no UO's .. /shrug
I liked the danger element of UO.. I liked the full loot.. I always had multiple spare sets of gear in my bank etc etc.. but many people didn't like it obviously. Oh well...
anyway I don't believe pk/pvp is needed in any game.. I DO believe that if you make a pvp game.. market a pvp game.. then that is what you should have, support and develop. Not change it to be something else to try and get a larger audience.
Don't even bring AC1 into your replies, Darktide was as populated as a normal server - the population stayed trim due to its own natural selection and the fact that you could open PvP on all of the white servers.
No Pure PvP game has worked because the devs are clueless idiots who don't have an idea about what PvPers want. Deathmatch is not a fun thing... world PvP politics is what we want
I'm a fan of open pvp... BUT what some of you gentlemen are talking about is just plain griefing. Griefing IMO is not the same as PKing or PvPing. When i run out of town after just having installed the game i don't wanna be followed around by a level 50 killing me everytime I leave town.
Now L2 kinda had a good system of you turning RED after killing someone who did not fight back, this was good in the way once you were RED you would drop items if you were to be killed. This system protected alot of people due to the fact that if they were killed the person would turn red and be swamped by people chasing him/her around. HOWEVER there was still alot of times where griefers still got the best of me in this game. I remember a time where my GF at the time made an account and joined me on human noob island. Were were adventuring and this PKer just kept following us around and killing us over and over and over everytime we left town and no one was around to help at the time.
That is not open pvp that is griefing this character had NOTHING to gain from killing level 8-10's and was doing it just out of pure boredom. This RUINED my gf's fun she went to bed upset and canceled her account. Now she enjoys EVE's open pvp and is quite good at it however the griefing that occured in L2 was to much for her.
It's too broad to say all pking or all pvping is bad... it's not but it's when it turns into GRIEFING it is to much. You have to remember it's still a game and NOT real life (meaning all the freedoms in life don't need to be implimented as RP as the game may be) and people still want to enjoy themselves.
Someone said something about DND earlier and yea while players can go against other players it almost NEVER happens. my gorup has found it only leads to pissed off players and boring gameplay after a while of "choatic evil" parties.
PVP and PK is fun when it's not griefing for some people but it by no means should be implemented in EVERY game as FFA some games are fine with just PVE and some people just don't like pvp at all. Saying FFA pvp and PK should be in EVERY game is like saying EVEry RPG has to have swords or EVERY rpg has to have 1 specific game mechanic. If thats the case then we will see even MORE clones than we do now... what i think the OP really could use is 1 game with great FFA pvp. I think that would be FAR better seeing it implemented wll ONCE than see it thrown into every game JUST BECAUSE....
Comments
Any old school ultima online player will tell you the samething. UO was my first MMO and I still haven't been able to find a game that brough me the same kind of feeling as UO did. I've played everything there is to play and currently I am playing WoW, which is an ok game but will never hold a candle to UO no matter how much more advanced it is.
The OP is right. The one thing UO was able to do more than any other MMO was create a since of real community. With servers not being huge, I think usually 1000-1500 players per a server and not a massively huge type of world things were different.
In UO when you walked into a dungeon you weren't scared of the monsters in the dungeon. You were scared in so focused on finding the red name to pop up on the screen so you could recall before they had a chance to kill you.
I think it's something that old school UO players will only want in a game. It's a niche community, we all saw what EA did to UO.
Fact is not a lot of game developers will take a risk at releasing a game like that. Too many people whine way to much.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
Wouldn't expect a carebear to understand...
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
Let Them HATE, so long as they FEAR
I think there is a little more definition here... I suggest 4 categories:
1) 'Hardcore' PKers -
- They like to refer to themselves as hardcore, real PvP people. They believe killing someone 15 levels lower is a challange and fun and will 'teach' that low level newbie how to play the game by following them around and killing them until they force the person to bow or something else. That's how it is in real life of course (sarcasm in case you missed it).
2) Real PvPers -
- Want PvP to add realism, balance, and challenge to the game, while also adding consequences to players actions. They believe human players are more challenging, hence more fun, to play against. They are not for killing a low level newbie for no reason (being annoying IS a reason) and believe if they do, they deserved to be punished (and they realize that the low level player is not the one who should be punishing them since that's unrealistic).
3) Common PvEers -
- Don't want to be griefed by category 1 players. Believe the only way to stop that is to: a) Not have PvP at all, b) Have PvP zones and non-PvP zones, or c) Have some PvP flagging systems or the like. They have fun with the grind and don't mind playing against poor AI if that's what it takes to not be harashed.
4) True Carebears -
- PvP is an evil word and only real life murders, criminals, and juvenile delinqunce would want that. Believe that no other player should affect their gameplay even though they are playing a Massively Multiplayer Game.
I'd guess most people fall into category 3, then 2... with 1 and 4 being a distant 3rd and 4th place. The problem is category 1 people RUIN the game for category 3 and 4 people (most category 2 people will just deal). If you solve the category 1 problem, I believe you would get just about all the category 2 and 3 people and have a GREAT MMO!!! We can only dream (at the moment).
Just my $0.02
and they deserve to have their gear taken form them by a better player
I know, for one, this isn't a viable model for a commercial service like an MMO. Open PVP without consequence is retarded. And theme parks are very boring and limited in story progression. Both are fundamentally limited to the peripheral of the market right now (excluding WoW on both since it's success is mostly an economic one rather than solely its feature set implementation) as it should be. The long term we're seeing PVP incorporated into the gameplay, but not at the exploitation of players who do not wish to partake in it. A good example of this is EVE, it has large segments of its playspace devoted to PVP, but someone (a carebear or trade-skiller or whatever) else must furnish most of the goodies (ships, ammo, implants, components for capital ships and stations, and so on). Luckily, in EVE this is all very easy to come by, but still hard to produce (no instant push-button crafting system) making the market the engine for progress for those not wishing to PVP.
So, to the OP, again, it's a feature not a panacea. Nor is any other feature a panacea for any reason.
-- Brede
I think there is a little more definition here... I suggest 4 categories:
1) 'Hardcore' PKers - - They like to refer to themselves as hardcore, real PvP people. They believe killing someone 15 levels lower is a challange and fun and will 'teach' that low level newbie how to play the game by following them around and killing them until they force the person to bow or something else. That's how it is in real life of course (sarcasm in case you missed it).
2) Real PvPers - - Want PvP to add realism, balance, and challenge to the game, while also adding consequences to players actions. They believe human players are more challenging, hence more fun, to play against. They are not for killing a low level newbie for no reason (being annoying IS a reason) and believe if they do, they deserved to be punished (and they realize that the low level player is not the one who should be punishing them since that's unrealistic).
3) Common PvEers - - Don't want to be griefed by category 1 players. Believe the only way to stop that is to: a) Not have PvP at all, b) Have PvP zones and non-PvP zones, or c) Have some PvP flagging systems or the like. They have fun with the grind and don't mind playing against poor AI if that's what it takes to not be harashed.
4) True Carebears - - PvP is an evil word and only real life murders, criminals, and juvenile delinqunce would want that. Believe that no other player should affect their gameplay even though they are playing a Massively Multiplayer Game.
I'd guess most people fall into category 3, then 2... with 1 and 4 being a distant 3rd and 4th place. The problem is category 1 people RUIN the game for category 3 and 4 people (most category 2 people will just deal). If you solve the category 1 problem, I believe you would get just about all the category 2 and 3 people and have a GREAT MMO!!! We can only dream (at the moment).
Just my $0.02
That's fairly accurate (I use accurate loosely here...) I believe, but the category 1 people are what we call griefers. These are the jerkwads that ruin both PVE and PVP. In PVE they're the jerks that love to build up aggro trains and demolish a PUG. In PVP, they're the ones that wait just outside of a town ignoring same-level or near-level people, but always tackle the level 1 character for no good reason other than to harass. Griefers are a universal problem for any multiplayer environment/game as the only real mechanisms that can keep them in check is either an open PVP system (where the level 1 character happens to have a friend who's level 50 decked out with the best template in town) or a ranking/alignment system (so now the guards aligned with the level 1 character's faction can tackle him anytime they wish for whatever amount of time allotted...). Frankly, I think both will work well if it's PVP + consequence. Not PVP + no restrictions (UO showed how much of a failure that was, along with Shadowbane).
In the end, griefers ruin everyone's fun time, not just 'carebears.'
-- Brede
Open PK in level based gamez just doesn’t work, dere’z too much ’igh-low level griefin’. Zoned PK like EVE or UO workz great fough.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
By that same token, you shouldn't bitch when you pay for a game that doesn't allow you to gank people just because you can.
I also have to disagree with the topic. I mean, it would be rather difficult to integrate PK into Tetris or Pac-Man. Although it would probably add just enough spice to Madden that I would actually play it. Come to think of it, I vaguely remember playing a game just like that....
BTW Slayde, good job staying in character. I know we're on a forum and all that, but I don't think I'd be able to put on the performance you have and not want to vomit at my own fucktardery.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Hello everyone,
yes I am new to these forums,but not to mmo's.
Ok back on topic,it is true if a game has pvp as a component then pk is to be expected.
however i feel the best method to include and open ffa pvp system would be to allow only one
character,and have permpa death, so if you want to pk for the other guys stuff then you best be ready to get pked for yours and the other guys stuff. Then everyone that got pked rerolls thier one char to try again.
thanks
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
Wouldn't expect a carebear to understand...
Oh snap!
HAHAHAAHAHAAAaAAaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The delusion is strong in this one.
Go ask Blizzard how much not having pk has hurt them.
ah but check out their community it is filled with spammers whiners and people who bitch. People have left because these people piss them off. that is where they have been hurt.
There are a lot more people who quit because of open PKing. In fact, I remember UO developers saying that's exactly why they dumbed down the open pk of Ultima Online somewhat, because they found out the numbers of people leaving over player killing to be enormous.
You're not the first person to say "Every game needs PK!" But saying that every game needs PK is just as ignorant as saying a PK game can't do well. There are different audiences within the mmorpg genre, some people like heavy open PVP focused MMO's, such as Lineage which still has both games close to 1 million subscribers, while other people like PVE focused MMO's.
Some like to play SIngle player First Person Shooters, other people like Multiplayer versus first person shooters.
Your whole terms of gamers are incorrect.
The term Carebear is made up by elitist pvp players who should do everyone a favor and kindly shut the hell up. There are simply people who don't like PVP. They don't go to whine to other people to save them, they will quit the game and go to a PVE game, that's why so many players left to Everquest after it came out.
Yep.It always amuses me when people use the term carebear in CoX PvP, a game which I have no desire to PvP in but I like the PvE. It amuses me because unlike most of those wusses I fight people (legally) in real life and yet they think they are internet tough guys. Seriously its hilarious.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
What game are we talking about here? Which mainstream popular MMORPG offers FFA PvP with full corpse looting? Besides EVE, which isn't really mainstream.
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic. PvP griefers are again trying to insult our intelligence by attempting, through the use of limited vocabulary and their warped beliefs, to prove that FFA PvP with full corpse looting is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It isn't. That's why Trammel was so populated.
As for me, I enjoy PvP simply because fighting a human opponent is much more fun than fighting a bot. I don't need to loot the person's corpse and take his hard earned items to feel superior. I also don't need to kill someone 20 levels bellow me to feel good about myself. I like a fair fight. However, as PvP combat in most MMOs is defined by character stats, I don't see being a PK something to brag about. You're not bragging about your PvP skills, you're bragging about your ability to remorselessly grief someone just because you can. And although I did PK for a bit on Atlantic, I find it funny when people attempt to associate player skill with ganking. In my opinion, PvP in MMOs is 25% skill, 5% luck and 70% based on items and stats.
Games are here to provide entertainment. If you fail to realize that your griefing behavior is destroying that entertainment for a lot of people, you are deeply misguided.
Oh, symphonius, only pussies don't play in traffic.
If the game has PVP and the person knows this and still pays the monthly fee they have no right to complain.
exactly. if the game has it enabled and you pay to play and acpect to terms of use you should not bitch and complain when some one comes and kills you and takes your shit
People are crazy. They go out, buy a game, don't read up on what the features are, and then complain.
They start to have visions of candycanes and lollipops, unicorns and little elves dancing in their heads. They think they know whats best for the game and start making crazy demands saying it will help balance things out. Just learn how to play the game people!
What game are we talking about here? Which mainstream popular MMORPG offers FFA PvP with full corpse looting? Besides EVE, which isn't really mainstream.
There are no mainstream FFA PvP games out there hense the reason for this topic. PvP griefers are again trying to insult our intelligence by attempting, through the use of limited vocabulary and their warped beliefs, to prove that FFA PvP with full corpse looting is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
It isn't. That's why Trammel was so populated.
As for me, I enjoy PvP simply because fighting a human opponent is much more fun than fighting a bot. I don't need to loot the person's corpse and take his hard earned items to feel superior. I also don't need to kill someone 20 levels bellow me to feel good about myself. I like a fair fight. However, as PvP combat in most MMOs is defined by character stats, I don't see being a PK something to brag about. You're not bragging about your PvP skills, you're bragging about your ability to remorselessly grief someone just because you can. And although I did PK for a bit on Atlantic, I find it funny when people attempt to associate player skill with ganking. In my opinion, PvP in MMOs is 25% skill, 5% luck and 70% based on items and stats.
Shhh your trying to use logic, most of us know that experience has shown that FFA PvP is not popular and that servers with it are like a ghost town. Many posters on here show exactly why that is the case....
You is right, ’corse. FFA PVP wiv corpse lootin’ ain’t popular right now, but I would suggest dat one of da reasonz for dis is da way in which current MMO’z is designed, progression wise.
In a level based game, FFA PVP will alwayz ’ave grieferz in it who like to gank lowa level playerz ’coz attackin’ someone 20 levelz below you is a 100% guaranteed "win", an’ dat’z wot grieferz crave more dan anythin’ else. Dey is essentially cowardly bulliez.
Den dere’z da corpse-lootin’. Today’z MMO’z is way too focused gear. Someone above used da term "’ard-earned gear" which is pretty accurate.
Dat’z why gamez such as UO an’ EVE ’ave da best PVP modelz. FFA PVP in avoidable areaz an’ wiv easily replacable equipment against people whose level of combat skill ain’t easily visible by a floatin’ "level" o’a deir ’eadz.
FFA PVP should be: Fun. Avoidable. Rewardin’.
Lineage 2, and Shadowbane come directly to mind. The Darktide server on Asheron's Call is still alive and kicking and, as far as I know, Vanguard, and EQ2 both have FFA PvP servers. Let's also not forget Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So what this bullshit about not having any FFA PvP games to play?
Lineage 2, and Shadowbane come directly to mind. The Darktide server on Asheron's Call is still alive and kicking and, as far as I know, Vanguard, and EQ2 both have FFA PvP servers. Let's also not forget Pirates of the Burning Sea.
So what this bullshit about not having any FFA PvP games to play?
Notice that I said mainstream. I would hardly consider Shadowbane being mainstream. Lineage 2's market is mainly in Asia and I guess I should've clarified that I was talking about western MMOs. The asian MMO market and the western market are different in what appeals to the consumers.
While AC, Vanguard and EQ offer FFA PvP servers, they are not as populated nor as numerous as the normal servers. UO had Siege Perilous but I would be hard pressed to call 1 server as being mainstream.
"mainstream".
With what it costs to make an MMO today... a Mainstream MMO.. wants a Mainstream audience.
You will notice the FFA pvp servers and games.. as you yourself mentioned are low population. There is a reason for this.. and its not something we need a heated flame filled discussion on.
What I saw when potbs launched.. was in many ways what I saw in UO.
In fact I'll try to make this short as I've posted on this subject to many times. Oh and btw I enjoyed UO and played it until 2002.. and mostly enjoyed it pre-trammel.. to give you a view point.. I obviously pvp'd in the game.
anyway short version..
A niche PvP ffa or not.. could be successful. It has to be marketed as a pvp game.. and be happy with the audience it gets. It could get enough subscribers to make a profit... Profit isn't the problem.. the size of the subscriber base companies desire.. seems to be.
So they try to combine the pvp with pve... to lure in the "mainstream" audience.
Then you start to have problems.
I honestly don't think the issues can be conveyed... either you have figured it out on your own by now or you haven't. Or.. anyone trying to explain them will be shot down... etc etc
Which comes back around to... why have all the mainstream (for north america) pvp games.. failed.
Oh and a majority of the problem.. comes from a very small segment of the pvp crowd.. that is:
1) very vocal
2) able to piss off a majority of the player base IN game
Then will cry loudly how the latest pvp game was ruined.. or the care bears won etc.. while taking no blame for their actions which caused this to happen.
Hopefully this is semi cryptic.. funny and a few people get what I tried to say.
HAHAHAAHAHAAAaAAaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The delusion is strong in this one.
Go ask Blizzard how much not having pk has hurt them.
ah but check out their community it is filled with spammers whiners and people who bitch. People have left because these people piss them off. that is where they have been hurt.
Instant classic. Bashing the WoW-community while demanding pking. Seriously, some people.. Case in point: Symphonius.
The entire problem with your issue comes down to one word.."mainstream".
With what it costs to make an MMO today... a Mainstream MMO.. wants a Mainstream audience.
You will notice the FFA pvp servers and games.. as you yourself mentioned are low population. There is a reason for this.. and its not something we need a heated flame filled discussion on.
What I saw when potbs launched.. was in many ways what I saw in UO.
In fact I'll try to make this short as I've posted on this subject to many times. Oh and btw I enjoyed UO and played it until 2002.. and mostly enjoyed it pre-trammel.. to give you a view point.. I obviously pvp'd in the game.
anyway short version..
A niche PvP ffa or not.. could be successful. It has to be marketed as a pvp game.. and be happy with the audience it gets. It could get enough subscribers to make a profit... Profit isn't the problem.. the size of the subscriber base companies desire.. seems to be.
So they try to combine the pvp with pve... to lure in the "mainstream" audience.
Then you start to have problems.
I honestly don't think the issues can be conveyed... either you have figured it out on your own by now or you haven't. Or.. anyone trying to explain them will be shot down... etc etc
Which comes back around to... why have all the mainstream (for north america) pvp games.. failed.
Oh and a majority of the problem.. comes from a very small segment of the pvp crowd.. that is:
1) very vocal
2) able to piss off a majority of the player base IN game
Then will cry loudly how the latest pvp game was ruined.. or the care bears won etc.. while taking no blame for their actions which caused this to happen.
Hopefully this is semi cryptic.. funny and a few people get what I tried to say.
Honestly, I think the reason the FFA PvP games fail in North America is because as the user base grows, more and more casual gamers join the market. You know the type: wife, 2 kids and a mortgage. Someone who gets on for an hour or so after dinner. This custmer wants to accomplish something in the hour and have a good time. In other words, he or she wants to be entertained.
Open PvP was ok when UO was in it's infancy because it was basically the only choice for an MMORPG. Not to mention that the demographic consisted mainly of RPers and gamers. They were mostly teenagers and young adults in their early 20's. They had time to dedicate to the game and thus it was easier for them to deal with PKs, bugs and tedious farming, not to mention griefing. Hell, most of them dealt with bullying all the time in school and used online griefing as a way to let out their anger. Then UO started losing customers due to rampant griefing PKs, thus the creation of Trammel.
Now the US demographic is drastically different. Besides the usual teenagers and young adults, you have people of all age groups and social backgrounds playing MMOs. From a 20 year old college student to a 40 year old executive and a 65 year old housewive/grandmother.
Which ties into your other point of PKs ruining their own games. I doubt that most of this new demographic would enjoy getting corpse camped by a few bored teenagers. Hense why open PvP games don't do that well in this market. Not because they aren't fun but because an average person + annonimity = douchebag.
FFA PvP didn't fly in UO... that's why we got muder system, penalties.. trammel.
That was reaction from a company that was bleeding subscriptions as EQ1 launched with its stated NO FORCED PVP system... I was in a guild of 300+ as more and more got into EQ beta and leading up to the early 1999 launch.. I ended up in a guild of 2.
You had the same behaviour etc
Of course people who actually wanted to pvp were pissed and made up lots of reasons or reasoning.
It still comes down to the same thing.
There is also the affect that PvP has on the PvE games its incorporated with. Or the other way around.. you have both extremes.
Trials of Atlantis for DAoC was meant to be a PvE experience that wouldn't affect RvR. Nothing could have been further from the truth at the time.
PvP nerfs that destroy classes.. affect PvE players that never PvP.
That's the point..
You make a pvp game you need to market it as a PvP game and support it as a PvP game. I'm not against PvP it can be an enjoyable experience.. but you need to handle it a certain way.
You also have to freely swing the ban stick on that certain segment of the pvp crowd (which imho is a small segment but probably the most visible due to how they act).
This is just my opinion but no open pvp game has been successful in North America.. including UO. Well in a mainsteam way that is...
If trammel had been in UO at launch.. I don't think you would have seen the mass loss of subscribers.. to me EQ1 was junk.. and I just kept going back to UO and left my guild in that other game.
Now I basicly just have a ton of EQ1's to choose from and really no UO's .. /shrug
I liked the danger element of UO.. I liked the full loot.. I always had multiple spare sets of gear in my bank etc etc.. but many people didn't like it obviously. Oh well...
anyway I don't believe pk/pvp is needed in any game.. I DO believe that if you make a pvp game.. market a pvp game.. then that is what you should have, support and develop. Not change it to be something else to try and get a larger audience.
The last 3 days i was searching for an pk game. I played so much games but the best pk games out are ...
RF online
Turf Battles
I dont know more real free pk games buit im waiting for 12skys2 and requiem ...
Shadowbane have a nice pk system too but its just too old and have no support ...
please if you know some good pk games say me
maybe wich will come out in few months
Don't even bring AC1 into your replies, Darktide was as populated as a normal server - the population stayed trim due to its own natural selection and the fact that you could open PvP on all of the white servers.
No Pure PvP game has worked because the devs are clueless idiots who don't have an idea about what PvPers want. Deathmatch is not a fun thing... world PvP politics is what we want
I'm a fan of open pvp... BUT what some of you gentlemen are talking about is just plain griefing. Griefing IMO is not the same as PKing or PvPing. When i run out of town after just having installed the game i don't wanna be followed around by a level 50 killing me everytime I leave town.
Now L2 kinda had a good system of you turning RED after killing someone who did not fight back, this was good in the way once you were RED you would drop items if you were to be killed. This system protected alot of people due to the fact that if they were killed the person would turn red and be swamped by people chasing him/her around. HOWEVER there was still alot of times where griefers still got the best of me in this game. I remember a time where my GF at the time made an account and joined me on human noob island. Were were adventuring and this PKer just kept following us around and killing us over and over and over everytime we left town and no one was around to help at the time.
That is not open pvp that is griefing this character had NOTHING to gain from killing level 8-10's and was doing it just out of pure boredom. This RUINED my gf's fun she went to bed upset and canceled her account. Now she enjoys EVE's open pvp and is quite good at it however the griefing that occured in L2 was to much for her.
It's too broad to say all pking or all pvping is bad... it's not but it's when it turns into GRIEFING it is to much. You have to remember it's still a game and NOT real life (meaning all the freedoms in life don't need to be implimented as RP as the game may be) and people still want to enjoy themselves.
Someone said something about DND earlier and yea while players can go against other players it almost NEVER happens. my gorup has found it only leads to pissed off players and boring gameplay after a while of "choatic evil" parties.
PVP and PK is fun when it's not griefing for some people but it by no means should be implemented in EVERY game as FFA some games are fine with just PVE and some people just don't like pvp at all. Saying FFA pvp and PK should be in EVERY game is like saying EVEry RPG has to have swords or EVERY rpg has to have 1 specific game mechanic. If thats the case then we will see even MORE clones than we do now... what i think the OP really could use is 1 game with great FFA pvp. I think that would be FAR better seeing it implemented wll ONCE than see it thrown into every game JUST BECAUSE....
Just hide all stats and call it a day!
If you can't see how strong someone is at first glance you will HAVE to think about it.