Out of the Pre-BC group only Ragnaros and C'Thun come to the level of Arthas. Archimonde dies in that battle anyways we just help. Kil'jaedan is just a powerful eredar.
Uh, Kil'jaeden isn't as powerful as the Lich King? Are you serious? Kil'jaeden created the Lich King!!!
Calling Kil'jaeden "just a powerful eredar" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
Out of the Pre-BC group only Ragnaros and C'Thun come to the level of Arthas. Archimonde dies in that battle anyways we just help. Kil'jaedan is just a powerful eredar.
Uh, Kil'jaeden isn't as powerful as the Lich King? Are you serious? Kil'jaeden created the Lich King!!!
Calling Kil'jaeden "just a powerful eredar" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
He couldnt even keep control of the lich king.
And why would we fight Malygos hes sane now?
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Well, some people really don't want to take the effort of assembling 25-man raids. With 10-man raids, you don't have to be in those big annoying elitest guilds to raid. Instead, you can stay in a family guild with friends, and still be able to do end-game. That may piss off the elitest guild people, but do remember:
10-man Artharas- hard as hell.
25-man Artharas- hard as hell.
Does it matter? not to me. Looks like the elitests are just going to have to stop whining and realise that they don't have to spend their life in front of a computer screen to do end-game. (They can go outside now.)
Casuals are tired of being treated like second-rate players
But, but.... aren't they?
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
So very true. They do indeed have the ressourses to add 300% more content than they currently do. But I guess they're busy polishing arenas etc.
Blizzard has plenty of content. They just have one problem: People who play their game way to much.
Also, I prefer quality over quantity content. This next expansion is going to kick ass. They'll keep me attacking horde towns with siege machines for YEARS.
Second rate players? No such thing. Define a first-rate player and tell me if that's anything to be proud of. So, blizzard saved y'all the emberassment and calls everyone who plays, "a WoW player."
Honestly, if I went around telling everyone that I had full tier 9 armor, and a super-netherdrake mount, I'd be forced to live in the rain-forest with Michael Jackson as an undesirable.
Uh, no. Malygos is now super insane. He wants to kill every magic using mortal on the planet.
It's just not as fun correcting people on lore as it used to be.
ON TOPIC The 10 man versions of raids will not be casual or easy. It's only when we become used to them that they become easy. I remember back in the early days of Kara when nearly everyone would skip Netherspite because he was too hard. Zul'aman is no cake walk either. If you think any group of casuals can just walk in there and take down Zul'jin then you are an idiot. Now, just imagine a 10 man raid thats even harder than ZA. That will give you some perspective of what WotLK will be like.
Frankly I'd love to see a game that completely ignored the hard core raiders and focused solely on the casual players. There are enough games out that already focus on hard-core raiding as it is. Besides, there are far more casual players than hard-core as can be seen by the numbers blizzard posts regarding the amount of folks that have been into and/or completed their "end game" raid zones. Flip everything you said around regarding "ignoring hard-core" and put in casual and you'll see how the majority of the "end game" has been for casuals. Casuals will eventually take over and I long for the day those guys from EQ1 that ruined WoW's end game can't find anything else to do. Thanks to them the end game turned into a PVE mess when it should have been a huge PVP battle like DAoC.
Dear Casuals,
If you feel so hard done by Blizzard, because as you all put it, they have ignored you for 3.5 years, then what the hell are you doing playing this game? If WoW was so anti-casual then why did it get 10 million subscribers? Why have you played it for so long even though in your own opinions Blizzard had no content for you and completely ignored you?
Answer me that. But you won't. You'll just respond by saying "you are an immature loser with no life" like my friend Pappy13 does. Or you'll just respond that my posts don't make sense. If thats the case please point about what spelling, grammatical or syntax errors I make.
Going a little mental there Washo? I will say this: congratulations, Washo, on the Block. Your comments are no longer worth reading. It is clear that your hate of WoW is complete and total. Why people like you feel the need to infest a WoW message board with such hate I'll never understand. I think you are the one with the voodoo doll huddled in the corner. You are the one desperately stabbing pins in to your crude effigy while madly whispering "Why are you so popular?". P.S. Don't bother responding to this because I won't be able to see it.
I hate the game? News to me. Wish someone told me during the 3 years I played. My my total /played would indicate otherwise.
The only hate I am seeing is the hate from you towards me. So maybe get your facts right and know what you're talking about first before you start attacking me?
i think its a great idea. most companies are idiots and change the whole thing (its either a 25 man or a 10 not both) with the choice blizz gives you it doesn't alienate anyone and better yet supports smaller guilds
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
. ON TOPIC The 10 man versions of raids will not be casual or easy. It's only when we become used to them that they become easy. I remember back in the early days of Kara when nearly everyone would skip Netherspite because he was too hard. Zul'aman is no cake walk either. If you think any group of casuals can just walk in there and take down Zul'jin then you are an idiot. Now, just imagine a 10 man raid thats even harder than ZA. That will give you some perspective of what WotLK will be like.
Zul'jin is pug'ed on my server. With the tier 6 badge loot ZA isn't that hard. Clearing ZA is still easier than downing Vashj or Kael. Now if you want to talk about timed ZA then thats different.
But one of the biggest criticisms about ZA was how some bosses were much easier with some raid make ups compared to others. CoH priest on Malacrass, Prot paladin on Jan'alai (dragonhawk) boss made those bosses much much much easier. Too many casters on Zul'jin made it hard but the right mix of melee/caster DPS helped greatly. If you take the 10 best classes/specs for each boss in ZA it becomes quite easy, especially in tier 5 gear. And this is the same issue that WotLK will face.
Karazhan back in the day was hard because most of the boss hadn't been nerfed yet. Shade of Aran was much harder, Nightbane was also much harder. Netherspite was only hard when learning it and a competent guild could easily learn him in one night and once you had him on farm he became one of the easiest bosses whereas Aran still required attention and effort.
i think its a great idea. most companies are idiots and change the whole thing (its either a 25 man or a 10 not both) with the choice blizz gives you it doesn't alienate anyone and better yet supports smaller guilds
Fine. I want 5 man end-game content. Organising 10 people is too hard.
In Vanilla WoW 40 man raids were too hard. TBC raids were nerfed to 25.
In TBC 25 man raids were too hard. In WotLK they will be nerfed to 10.
And I can guarantee you:
In WotLK 10 man raids were too hard. 3rd WoW expansion end-game content was reduced to 5man content. Being able to convert a group into a raid disabled.
In the 3rd expansion 5 man content was deemed to hard and for the 4th expansion end-game content reduced to 1 man instances.
In the 4th expansion 1 man content was deemed too long and hard. 5th expansion you defeated all content merely by logging in.
You are making yourself an easy target Washo with your comments. I still believe though that this is an interesting subject worth discussing, a subject which Washo raised in the first place.
The answer to all of this lies in one of your answers where you mention that "working professional" made an effort to participate in raiding. And that's the whole point. An effort shouldn't be made to participate.
An effort should be made into completing an instance. There is no point for it being easy. Sure , some people like the easy way but that will lead (from a practical point of view) in many people essentially finishing the game earlier than expected and thus turning their viewpoint into other games. A gaming company does not want that. Blizzard has demonstrated in the past, that it can make engaging content whether this content is 40 man, 25 man, 10man, 5man or even solo content ( the hunter bow quest in vanilla wow comes in mind). Whether the new 10 man raids will be easy or not remains to be seen and any opinion expressed at this time is subjective.
An effort should not be made into participating in an instance. Lets face it , the way raids are set up right now are not flexible. Getting all these people together is too much of a hustle. I've been there......it's not something I want to do in my free time and neither do many others. 10 man raids are more flexible in every aspect. This will lead into "casuals" actually raiding. Raiding itself though wont take less time I suspect (opinion), it will probably take more. What may take some people 1 month to finish, may take a casual 3 months (enter random numbers here) to. This will in turn extend their playtime even more and keep them occupied and happy. The most important thing here is that they will be given a shot at it. A gaming company does want that.
As far as the lore goes, it doesn't matter if Arthas is slain by 100,50,20 or 1 person. It's all a matter of perspective. As far as the lore goes, worry more when spaceships start crash landing in a fantasy enviroment to introduce previously evil races. Worry more when a game company kills its main 2 antagonists in the first 2 expansions it produces ( meaning they might be out of fresh ideas, this is a personal opinion though)
i think its a great idea. most companies are idiots and change the whole thing (its either a 25 man or a 10 not both) with the choice blizz gives you it doesn't alienate anyone and better yet supports smaller guilds
Fine. I want 5 man end-game content. Organising 10 people is too hard.
In Vanilla WoW 40 man raids were too hard. TBC raids were nerfed to 25.
In TBC 25 man raids were too hard. In WotLK they will be nerfed to 10.
And I can guarantee you:
In WotLK 10 man raids were too hard. 3rd WoW expansion end-game content was reduced to 5man content. Being able to convert a group into a raid disabled.
In the 3rd expansion 5 man content was deemed to hard and for the 4th expansion end-game content reduced to 1 man instances.
In the 4th expansion 1 man content was deemed too long and hard. 5th expansion you defeated all content merely by logging in.
EVERYONE HAPPY
Actually most don't think any of those are "hard". They just don't like them.
I left WoW when 40 man raids were the only thing and there was a veritable revolution of the forums. Blizzard did not relent and announce 25 man raiding until a few months after I left.
Before I left there I said flat out I do not like 40 man raids they are boring. Not hard, boring. There is too much overlap and frankly I just don't really want to be part of a small army.
Many other people agree with my point of view. Some peopel suggested 20-25 man raids, ie. cut it in half. I said I don't personally like that. About the most I wanted to do at the time was 10-15 much like the very first "pre-raid" blizzard ever did Blackrock Spire.
You know what most people liked Black Rock spire. Most people do not like raids. And it has nothing to do with "hard".
Look let me make it real simple. When I go out to a bar with friends I don't invite 25 frigging people, I go with or maybe sometimes 10.
Doing anything with 40 people is a pain in the ass. Further it is a pain the ass that only a very few people actually find fun. How many people actually regularly throw a house party and invite a significant number of people over? Very few people, because most people simply don't enjoy that.
Even when people goto a house party or a club by far most people just congragate into group of about 2-6 and talk about stuff. The only reason there are 40 people at a house party is so that people can mingle and so that it feels like something is going on. Same thing with bars. Why do people pay more money to go to a bar and hang out with the same 5 people they always hang out with. Just to feel like something is going on. Not because they are going to go to the bar and intereact simultaneously with everyone there.
People naturally gravitate towards doing stuff in things of about the size of 5-10 and rarely about 15. And 15 is almost always only done in the case of something like sports team.
Going past a group size of 15 is just stupid. Because almost no one likes that. There are a very few number of people who actually enjoy anything done on that scale. In fact there are very few things outside of the armed forces that actually have >15 working simultaneously on the same thing. It is almost always the case that human break up into teams and do sub tasks independently anyway.
Even something like a large event like catering a conference is probably about 15-20 people teams. like 10-15 watiers, and about 5-10 cooks and a few managers.
This dynamic was actually quite obvious to anyone who played the old Alterac Valley. Which was in fact he largest player endevaor to ever exist in WoW. 80 players total. What happened? The groups tended to split up and do different jobs in teams of about 10- 15. Whether that was killing a boss npc or pushing ahead or retaking a graveyard.
So even the largest player event to ever exist in WoW, the very system you are complaining about bears out this pattern.
We are humans not ANTS.
None of this has to do with "hard". Yes there are people who whine about organizing things. And the old 40 mans were a pain to organize. But first off that is not "hard" that is simply a pain in the ass. Secondly only a small number of people did that work, most people simply had to show up on time. And frankly most just didn't think that sort of thing was fun. Because its not fun.
Woot. And the casuals resort to name calling. You forgot to mention I live in my mom's basement, I have no friends or social life and I'm an immature 14 year old.
The answer to all of this lies in one of your answers where you mention that "working professional" made an effort to participate in raiding. And that's the whole point. An effort shouldn't be made to participate.
All hobbies require an effort. I'd imagine even stamp collecting. The more effort you put in the bigger the reward and satisfaction at the end.
An effort should be made into completing an instance. There is no point for it being easy. Sure , some people like the easy way but that will lead (from a practical point of view) in many people essentially finishing the game earlier than expected and thus turning their viewpoint into other games. A gaming company does not want that. Blizzard has demonstrated in the past, that it can make engaging content whether this content is 40 man, 25 man, 10man, 5man or even solo content ( the hunter bow quest in vanilla wow comes in mind). Whether the new 10 man raids will be easy or not remains to be seen and any opinion expressed at this time is subjective.
But you make a very convincing argument on why it will have to be hard. Currently people who do heroics, karazhan and ZA always have the option to try gruul/mag/ssc/tk/hyjal/BT. The first 3 bosses in both Hyjal and BT are no harder than the bosses in SSC/TK. Rage Winterchill is, imo, the easiest boss in the game (I'll admit I died on him once LOL). There is so much easy 25 man content, 10 man content, heroics to do I don't understand why people are complaining. I think patches 2.3 and 2.4 have made raiding accessible and yet still challenging. Why change it? If subscriber numbers were crashing then ok, change it, but the numbers for WoW have kept climbing and climbing. So much for a broken raid system.
An effort should not be made into participating in an instance. Lets face it , the way raids are set up right now are not flexible. Getting all these people together is too much of a hustle. I've been there......it's not something I want to do in my free time and neither do many others. 10 man raids are more flexible in every aspect.
I've been in guilds where organisation is terrible and ones where it wasn't. The whole hassle of getting a raiding guild going touches on the social aspect that many people have mentioned is a problem for WoW. The largest MMOG in the world is also one of the most anti-social. Most guilds are full of non-stop drama and problems. Thats not Blizzard's fault, its the players. By dumbing the game down to 10 man raids as the main end-game content so people only have to group with a a few friends to play the game ruins it for me. I want my MMOG's to be massive and multiplayer. Not something less multiplayer than your average CoD4 or CS server.
As far as the lore goes, it doesn't matter if Arthas is slain by 100,50,20 or 1 person. It's all a matter of perspective. As far as the lore goes, worry more when spaceships start crash landing in a fantasy enviroment to introduce previously evil races. Worry more when a game company kills its main 2 antagonists in the first 2 expansions it produces ( meaning they might be out of fresh ideas, this is a personal opinion though)
Well, as mentioned at the end of Frozen Throne Arthas is now one of the most powerful people in the game. If view the game as a piece of fiction, similar to a book, then having a couple of friends just mucking about killing Arthas then it ruins the storyline. If I just wanted mindless action I could play CoD4. But, yeah, the space goats thing didn't work. I was expecting Northrend and Arthas to be the 3rd expansion but I think everyone agrees WotLK was brought forward to combat Warhammer since they will have similar releases. I read a post somewhere where someone suggested the likely remaining expansions but they mostly contained stuff from the Warcraft books (emerald dream, Azshara, old gods, sargares) and not the games. Like me most people don't read warcraft books and just go on what happened in the games. But I agree if they kill off all the best characters from the games by the end of the 2nd expansion then that is a bit lorelol. By the end of the 2nd expansion we'll see Bladefist, Gorefiend (WC2), kel'thuzad, arthas, Illidan, kael, vash all dead from the playable heroes in WC2 and WC3. That only leaves Kil'Jaeden left alive from WC3 and of curse he wasn't playable. By the time the 3rd expansion rolls around I think even the biggest WoW supporter will argue that it will be on a downside slide in terms of subscribers. Anyway, this thread has gone on too long. /end
All hobbies require an effort. I'd imagine even stamp collecting. The more effort you put in the bigger the reward and satisfaction at the end.
Well, as mentioned at the end of Frozen Throne Arthas is now one of the most powerful people in the game. If view the game as a piece of fiction, similar to a book, then having a couple of friends just mucking about killing Arthas then it ruins the storyline.
What you fail to understand Washo is that the game is not FOR you. It's for anyone who wants to play it. And while you view it as a "hobby", a lot of folks view it is as entertainment and most folks don't really want to put an effort in for entertainment. It's more like a summer action movie for us, we just want to grab a cola and some popcorn and sit in a nice comfy chair and take it in. Maybe even grab a little shut eye during the slow parts.
And you know what, we really don't care that much what happens to Arthas. I'm sure he's real important and all, but in the big picture we really couldn't care less who kills him or why. You are going to lose sleep over the ending, but there's a whole bunch of us that when the story ends we are going to tell our buddies, it's cool, go see it.
We don't worry about the way you read your book or enjoy your hobby in the 25 man raids, all we ask is that you show us the courtesy of letting us watch our movie in our 10 man raid in peace.
Uh, no. Malygos is now super insane. He wants to kill every magic using mortal on the planet.
It's just not as fun correcting people on lore as it used to be.
ON TOPIC The 10 man versions of raids will not be casual or easy. It's only when we become used to them that they become easy. I remember back in the early days of Kara when nearly everyone would skip Netherspite because he was too hard. Zul'aman is no cake walk either. If you think any group of casuals can just walk in there and take down Zul'jin then you are an idiot. Now, just imagine a 10 man raid thats even harder than ZA. That will give you some perspective of what WotLK will be like.
Because he thinks that the mortal races use it too much and it will bring back the demons back.
on topic
I agree kara is seen as carebear now becuase most everyone at 70 has done it and moved on by now. There is nothing wrong with 10 man raids as they can be just as tough as 25.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day. And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Personally I'm looking forward to the 10 mans. My guild is a tight group of friends and 10 mans fit our size perfectly. We might grow but for now I would be absolutely content with Blizzard's plans.
Well the way I see it, we're supposed to be hero types in this game right? Why then should it take 25 of us to kill one dude? I'm not saying that we should be able to solo characters like Arthas, but I think that 10 people strikes a good balance between the overkill of a 40 man raid where you account for very little, and the desire to have a character that you feel is very strong.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I have to think that the proportion of players that A. enjoy 25 man raids, B. enjoy 25 man raids for a reason other than the gear, and C. can't stand the idea of people in smaller guilds being able to even set foot in "their instances" is pretty small.
In my experience the great majority of raiders put up with the pain in the ass of raiding for the gear, and perhaps bragging rights. Since the 25 man versions will be harder (you still get to brag) and have better gear (you'll still have a bigger e-peen than casual players), I don't see what the problem is.
I think that 10/ 25 man raiding is a smart move by Blizzard that will please the majority of their fans. The few hardcore raiders that are so offended by the mouthbreating masses being allowed to enjoy a kiddy version of "their ride" that they move on will won't be missed.
As far as the lore angle, the guy with the creepy avatar above me makes a good point. Even if it wasn't a good point, I doubt that there are so many anal renentive lore junkies playing WoW that it would hurt Blizzards bottom line much if they all left. So much of the lore in WoW was incoherent gibberish that you had to have a high threshold for lack of consistancy to even play it. And this is coming from someone that went back to SM at 60 to read all the books.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Comments
Calling Kil'jaeden "just a powerful eredar" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
Calling Kil'jaeden "just a powerful eredar" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time.
He couldnt even keep control of the lich king.
And why would we fight Malygos hes sane now?
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Well, some people really don't want to take the effort of assembling 25-man raids. With 10-man raids, you don't have to be in those big annoying elitest guilds to raid. Instead, you can stay in a family guild with friends, and still be able to do end-game. That may piss off the elitest guild people, but do remember:
10-man Artharas- hard as hell.
25-man Artharas- hard as hell.
Does it matter? not to me. Looks like the elitests are just going to have to stop whining and realise that they don't have to spend their life in front of a computer screen to do end-game. (They can go outside now.)
Argh
But, but.... aren't they?
It just comes down to the fact that Blizzard is slow and lazy in releasin g new content. If they keep going on how they have 10 million subscribers than surely they have the money to create content to keep most of them happy.
So very true. They do indeed have the ressourses to add 300% more content than they currently do. But I guess they're busy polishing arenas etc.
Blizzard has plenty of content. They just have one problem: People who play their game way to much.
Also, I prefer quality over quantity content. This next expansion is going to kick ass. They'll keep me attacking horde towns with siege machines for YEARS.
Second rate players? No such thing. Define a first-rate player and tell me if that's anything to be proud of. So, blizzard saved y'all the emberassment and calls everyone who plays, "a WoW player."
Honestly, if I went around telling everyone that I had full tier 9 armor, and a super-netherdrake mount, I'd be forced to live in the rain-forest with Michael Jackson as an undesirable.
Argh
It's just not as fun correcting people on lore as it used to be.
ON TOPIC The 10 man versions of raids will not be casual or easy. It's only when we become used to them that they become easy. I remember back in the early days of Kara when nearly everyone would skip Netherspite because he was too hard. Zul'aman is no cake walk either. If you think any group of casuals can just walk in there and take down Zul'jin then you are an idiot. Now, just imagine a 10 man raid thats even harder than ZA. That will give you some perspective of what WotLK will be like.
Dear Casuals,
If you feel so hard done by Blizzard, because as you all put it, they have ignored you for 3.5 years, then what the hell are you doing playing this game? If WoW was so anti-casual then why did it get 10 million subscribers? Why have you played it for so long even though in your own opinions Blizzard had no content for you and completely ignored you?
Answer me that. But you won't. You'll just respond by saying "you are an immature loser with no life" like my friend Pappy13 does. Or you'll just respond that my posts don't make sense. If thats the case please point about what spelling, grammatical or syntax errors I make.
I hate the game? News to me. Wish someone told me during the 3 years I played. My my total /played would indicate otherwise.
The only hate I am seeing is the hate from you towards me. So maybe get your facts right and know what you're talking about first before you start attacking me?
i think its a great idea. most companies are idiots and change the whole thing (its either a 25 man or a 10 not both) with the choice blizz gives you it doesn't alienate anyone and better yet supports smaller guilds
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Zul'jin is pug'ed on my server. With the tier 6 badge loot ZA isn't that hard. Clearing ZA is still easier than downing Vashj or Kael. Now if you want to talk about timed ZA then thats different.
But one of the biggest criticisms about ZA was how some bosses were much easier with some raid make ups compared to others. CoH priest on Malacrass, Prot paladin on Jan'alai (dragonhawk) boss made those bosses much much much easier. Too many casters on Zul'jin made it hard but the right mix of melee/caster DPS helped greatly. If you take the 10 best classes/specs for each boss in ZA it becomes quite easy, especially in tier 5 gear. And this is the same issue that WotLK will face.
Karazhan back in the day was hard because most of the boss hadn't been nerfed yet. Shade of Aran was much harder, Nightbane was also much harder. Netherspite was only hard when learning it and a competent guild could easily learn him in one night and once you had him on farm he became one of the easiest bosses whereas Aran still required attention and effort.
Fine. I want 5 man end-game content. Organising 10 people is too hard.In Vanilla WoW 40 man raids were too hard. TBC raids were nerfed to 25.
In TBC 25 man raids were too hard. In WotLK they will be nerfed to 10.
And I can guarantee you:
In WotLK 10 man raids were too hard. 3rd WoW expansion end-game content was reduced to 5man content. Being able to convert a group into a raid disabled.
In the 3rd expansion 5 man content was deemed to hard and for the 4th expansion end-game content reduced to 1 man instances.
In the 4th expansion 1 man content was deemed too long and hard. 5th expansion you defeated all content merely by logging in.
EVERYONE HAPPY
Wow imma just say washo that you should be banned from these forums... and i will be reporting you.
Edit: I also blocked you.
You are making yourself an easy target Washo with your comments. I still believe though that this is an interesting subject worth discussing, a subject which Washo raised in the first place.
The answer to all of this lies in one of your answers where you mention that "working professional" made an effort to participate in raiding. And that's the whole point. An effort shouldn't be made to participate.
An effort should be made into completing an instance. There is no point for it being easy. Sure , some people like the easy way but that will lead (from a practical point of view) in many people essentially finishing the game earlier than expected and thus turning their viewpoint into other games. A gaming company does not want that. Blizzard has demonstrated in the past, that it can make engaging content whether this content is 40 man, 25 man, 10man, 5man or even solo content ( the hunter bow quest in vanilla wow comes in mind). Whether the new 10 man raids will be easy or not remains to be seen and any opinion expressed at this time is subjective.
An effort should not be made into participating in an instance. Lets face it , the way raids are set up right now are not flexible. Getting all these people together is too much of a hustle. I've been there......it's not something I want to do in my free time and neither do many others. 10 man raids are more flexible in every aspect. This will lead into "casuals" actually raiding. Raiding itself though wont take less time I suspect (opinion), it will probably take more. What may take some people 1 month to finish, may take a casual 3 months (enter random numbers here) to. This will in turn extend their playtime even more and keep them occupied and happy. The most important thing here is that they will be given a shot at it. A gaming company does want that.
As far as the lore goes, it doesn't matter if Arthas is slain by 100,50,20 or 1 person. It's all a matter of perspective. As far as the lore goes, worry more when spaceships start crash landing in a fantasy enviroment to introduce previously evil races. Worry more when a game company kills its main 2 antagonists in the first 2 expansions it produces ( meaning they might be out of fresh ideas, this is a personal opinion though)
In Vanilla WoW 40 man raids were too hard. TBC raids were nerfed to 25.
In TBC 25 man raids were too hard. In WotLK they will be nerfed to 10.
And I can guarantee you:
In WotLK 10 man raids were too hard. 3rd WoW expansion end-game content was reduced to 5man content. Being able to convert a group into a raid disabled.
In the 3rd expansion 5 man content was deemed to hard and for the 4th expansion end-game content reduced to 1 man instances.
In the 4th expansion 1 man content was deemed too long and hard. 5th expansion you defeated all content merely by logging in.
EVERYONE HAPPY
Actually most don't think any of those are "hard". They just don't like them.I left WoW when 40 man raids were the only thing and there was a veritable revolution of the forums. Blizzard did not relent and announce 25 man raiding until a few months after I left.
Before I left there I said flat out I do not like 40 man raids they are boring. Not hard, boring. There is too much overlap and frankly I just don't really want to be part of a small army.
Many other people agree with my point of view. Some peopel suggested 20-25 man raids, ie. cut it in half. I said I don't personally like that. About the most I wanted to do at the time was 10-15 much like the very first "pre-raid" blizzard ever did Blackrock Spire.
You know what most people liked Black Rock spire. Most people do not like raids. And it has nothing to do with "hard".
Look let me make it real simple. When I go out to a bar with friends I don't invite 25 frigging people, I go with or maybe sometimes 10.
Doing anything with 40 people is a pain in the ass. Further it is a pain the ass that only a very few people actually find fun. How many people actually regularly throw a house party and invite a significant number of people over? Very few people, because most people simply don't enjoy that.
Even when people goto a house party or a club by far most people just congragate into group of about 2-6 and talk about stuff. The only reason there are 40 people at a house party is so that people can mingle and so that it feels like something is going on. Same thing with bars. Why do people pay more money to go to a bar and hang out with the same 5 people they always hang out with. Just to feel like something is going on. Not because they are going to go to the bar and intereact simultaneously with everyone there.
People naturally gravitate towards doing stuff in things of about the size of 5-10 and rarely about 15. And 15 is almost always only done in the case of something like sports team.
Going past a group size of 15 is just stupid. Because almost no one likes that. There are a very few number of people who actually enjoy anything done on that scale. In fact there are very few things outside of the armed forces that actually have >15 working simultaneously on the same thing. It is almost always the case that human break up into teams and do sub tasks independently anyway.
Even something like a large event like catering a conference is probably about 15-20 people teams. like 10-15 watiers, and about 5-10 cooks and a few managers.
This dynamic was actually quite obvious to anyone who played the old Alterac Valley. Which was in fact he largest player endevaor to ever exist in WoW. 80 players total. What happened? The groups tended to split up and do different jobs in teams of about 10- 15. Whether that was killing a boss npc or pushing ahead or retaking a graveyard.
So even the largest player event to ever exist in WoW, the very system you are complaining about bears out this pattern.
We are humans not ANTS.
None of this has to do with "hard". Yes there are people who whine about organizing things. And the old 40 mans were a pain to organize. But first off that is not "hard" that is simply a pain in the ass. Secondly only a small number of people did that work, most people simply had to show up on time. And frankly most just didn't think that sort of thing was fun. Because its not fun.
Woot. And the casuals resort to name calling. You forgot to mention I live in my mom's basement, I have no friends or social life and I'm an immature 14 year old.
All hobbies require an effort. I'd imagine even stamp collecting. The more effort you put in the bigger the reward and satisfaction at the end.
But you make a very convincing argument on why it will have to be hard. Currently people who do heroics, karazhan and ZA always have the option to try gruul/mag/ssc/tk/hyjal/BT. The first 3 bosses in both Hyjal and BT are no harder than the bosses in SSC/TK. Rage Winterchill is, imo, the easiest boss in the game (I'll admit I died on him once LOL). There is so much easy 25 man content, 10 man content, heroics to do I don't understand why people are complaining. I think patches 2.3 and 2.4 have made raiding accessible and yet still challenging. Why change it? If subscriber numbers were crashing then ok, change it, but the numbers for WoW have kept climbing and climbing. So much for a broken raid system.
I've been in guilds where organisation is terrible and ones where it wasn't. The whole hassle of getting a raiding guild going touches on the social aspect that many people have mentioned is a problem for WoW. The largest MMOG in the world is also one of the most anti-social. Most guilds are full of non-stop drama and problems. Thats not Blizzard's fault, its the players. By dumbing the game down to 10 man raids as the main end-game content so people only have to group with a a few friends to play the game ruins it for me. I want my MMOG's to be massive and multiplayer. Not something less multiplayer than your average CoD4 or CS server.Well, as mentioned at the end of Frozen Throne Arthas is now one of the most powerful people in the game. If view the game as a piece of fiction, similar to a book, then having a couple of friends just mucking about killing Arthas then it ruins the storyline. If I just wanted mindless action I could play CoD4. But, yeah, the space goats thing didn't work. I was expecting Northrend and Arthas to be the 3rd expansion but I think everyone agrees WotLK was brought forward to combat Warhammer since they will have similar releases.
I read a post somewhere where someone suggested the likely remaining expansions but they mostly contained stuff from the Warcraft books (emerald dream, Azshara, old gods, sargares) and not the games. Like me most people don't read warcraft books and just go on what happened in the games. But I agree if they kill off all the best characters from the games by the end of the 2nd expansion then that is a bit lorelol. By the end of the 2nd expansion we'll see Bladefist, Gorefiend (WC2), kel'thuzad, arthas, Illidan, kael, vash all dead from the playable heroes in WC2 and WC3. That only leaves Kil'Jaeden left alive from WC3 and of curse he wasn't playable. By the time the 3rd expansion rolls around I think even the biggest WoW supporter will argue that it will be on a downside slide in terms of subscribers.
Anyway, this thread has gone on too long. /end
What you fail to understand Washo is that the game is not FOR you. It's for anyone who wants to play it. And while you view it as a "hobby", a lot of folks view it is as entertainment and most folks don't really want to put an effort in for entertainment. It's more like a summer action movie for us, we just want to grab a cola and some popcorn and sit in a nice comfy chair and take it in. Maybe even grab a little shut eye during the slow parts.
And you know what, we really don't care that much what happens to Arthas. I'm sure he's real important and all, but in the big picture we really couldn't care less who kills him or why. You are going to lose sleep over the ending, but there's a whole bunch of us that when the story ends we are going to tell our buddies, it's cool, go see it.
We don't worry about the way you read your book or enjoy your hobby in the 25 man raids, all we ask is that you show us the courtesy of letting us watch our movie in our 10 man raid in peace.
Thanks.
It's just not as fun correcting people on lore as it used to be.
ON TOPIC The 10 man versions of raids will not be casual or easy. It's only when we become used to them that they become easy. I remember back in the early days of Kara when nearly everyone would skip Netherspite because he was too hard. Zul'aman is no cake walk either. If you think any group of casuals can just walk in there and take down Zul'jin then you are an idiot. Now, just imagine a 10 man raid thats even harder than ZA. That will give you some perspective of what WotLK will be like.
Because he thinks that the mortal races use it too much and it will bring back the demons back.
on topic
I agree kara is seen as carebear now becuase most everyone at 70 has done it and moved on by now. There is nothing wrong with 10 man raids as they can be just as tough as 25.
Hold on Snow Leopard, imma let you finish, but Windows had one of the best operating systems of all time.
If the Powerball lottery was like Lotro, nobody would win for 2 years, and then everyone in Nebraska would win on the same day.
And then Nebraska would get nerfed.-pinkwood lotro fourms
AMD 4800 2.4ghz-3GB RAM 533mhz-EVGA 9500GT 512mb-320gb HD
Personally I'm looking forward to the 10 mans. My guild is a tight group of friends and 10 mans fit our size perfectly. We might grow but for now I would be absolutely content with Blizzard's plans.
Well the way I see it, we're supposed to be hero types in this game right? Why then should it take 25 of us to kill one dude? I'm not saying that we should be able to solo characters like Arthas, but I think that 10 people strikes a good balance between the overkill of a 40 man raid where you account for very little, and the desire to have a character that you feel is very strong.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I have to think that the proportion of players that A. enjoy 25 man raids, B. enjoy 25 man raids for a reason other than the gear, and C. can't stand the idea of people in smaller guilds being able to even set foot in "their instances" is pretty small.
In my experience the great majority of raiders put up with the pain in the ass of raiding for the gear, and perhaps bragging rights. Since the 25 man versions will be harder (you still get to brag) and have better gear (you'll still have a bigger e-peen than casual players), I don't see what the problem is.
I think that 10/ 25 man raiding is a smart move by Blizzard that will please the majority of their fans. The few hardcore raiders that are so offended by the mouthbreating masses being allowed to enjoy a kiddy version of "their ride" that they move on will won't be missed.
As far as the lore angle, the guy with the creepy avatar above me makes a good point. Even if it wasn't a good point, I doubt that there are so many anal renentive lore junkies playing WoW that it would hurt Blizzards bottom line much if they all left. So much of the lore in WoW was incoherent gibberish that you had to have a high threshold for lack of consistancy to even play it. And this is coming from someone that went back to SM at 60 to read all the books.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.