AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?
We had seamless worlds in 1997 with UO, in 2000'ish with AC, not long after with DAoC, and then the immense SWG.
Planetside with its up to 300 people in the same battle, I heard that Runescape can have 1000vs1000 (can that be true??) in the same battle. DAoC had easily several hundred in the same battle as well.
Now AoC has hit with such a huge success. What the hell is happening? How can the players accept the freedom being taken away from them? How can they accept being confined with technology more limiting than the singleplayer game Oblivion?
Battles confined to instanced battlegrounds chopped off from the world's reality? 48vs48 in each battle - slightly more than Battlefield2 and ALOT less than Joint Operations?
Heavy instancing of the main world, making it totally inconsistent, and allowing for such artifacts as people fleeing combat by switching instance? Two people being at the same spot in the world, but cannot see each other? A nightmare of inconsistency and immersion-breaking, while at the same time crippling (supposedly) important elements like PvP. Proceeding in the world by talking to an NPC, so you can be transported to one of a number of instances of the next area instead of just simply walking there?
Are the players really willingly sitting there, as the developers chip pellet after pellet away on the very foundation of Massive Multiplayer?
The mainstreamification of this genre looks more and more like a curse.
well nothing new to see here, its like the millionth time i seen these arguments/questions and the answer to all of em is: some people dont need a seamless world to like a game
thread can be closed now
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
So you have experienced each and everyone of these area's in AoC? Its a nice list you have, but where is the substance / backing up? I think it does move the genre forward in some areas, not all on your 'list' granted, but you know how can you categorically state that it failed in areas such as economy and siege battles when the game is but a couple of weeks old and no one has experienced a full on siege yet? You don't have to have been on every single square of the world to evaluate the game. Instanced zoning will be present throughout the game - have you seen it once at level 1, you will see it again at level 80.
I'm happy it ran fine for you, but at least get off tortage before making exagerations you dont have the proof to back up. Where's your extensive grouping review, with impressions on how the classes work together, instead of your reliance on standard tank relies on healer syndrome. Do you expect him to give a 5 page review? Exploring? you been to all four corners of the game? What exactly makes other areas so special, that they change GAMEPLAY? Isn't new areas just ground with new textures? And if that is the case, do you really need to see it all to evaluate the game? What crafting experience did you have? Did you even make anything? I have never heard about a game where you can first craft at 40. Obvious cover-up for lack of implementation. Graphical wise its the best looking game out there imo, a view shared by many people. So its Dx9 and it still kicks ass. So what? Graphics don't make a game. One day when you can really put on a camoflage suit and hide in your surroundings simply because it blends in - not because you have some ability making you vanish in thin air - will graphics have an impact on gameplay. Until then, nice graphics is the icing of the cake. You will get pretty damn tired of eating just icing, and you will be pretty tired pretty damn fast. 1v1 PvP? did you get ganked or something? maybe a few times? Do you have indepth knowledge of your class its abilities, fully fledged feat tree, and experience of other classes? So again you claim that what you see early on isn't what you see at 80? In WoW I got a Mind Blast spell early on, and I got a Fear too (I was shadowpriest). At level 60 I had the exact same spells, just in stronger versions. I got a pretty good idea what the WoW combat system was all about in the first 15 levels. Raiding occurs only at lvl 80, are you there yet? Have you been to all the dungeons? Have you done at least one 24 man raid yet? Did you ever read the class descriptions over at tentonhammer.com? They are nearly all dis-similar to other a-typical character classes out there. Ever played an mmo where a priest can do more damage than a rogue, where the more damage they do the better they heal?
Can you name another mmorpg that does real time active blocking and attacking? DDO sure, AoC you have control of where you defend yourself from positional attacks. Can you name another mmorpg where you can attack in real time from a mount? Corporate types, will be looking at the interest AoC has gained an no doubt, imitations will come. Can you honestly not say your blinded by hatred and cant even see the good in the game? for whatever reason. The combat is more evolutionary rather than revolutionary for me. Back to reality, the game will have been released 2 weeks tomorrow in Europe, sure it has bugs and a few issues here and there, what mmorpg doesnt at release. Knocking it on half of the points on your list is just too pre-emptive. Are you sure that they will implement the rest? And get it right if they do? How can they promise features that are selling points for many people and then not have it in? You can only evaluate on what is released, not on what may or may not come in some possible future. Of course people dont have to be enthusiastic or waving their hands in rapture about the games issues, they are there for all to see, but at least they are doing something about it, better than nothing at all. And its wrong to compare this game size in multiplayer sieges to online shooters.. Why is that? Shouldn't an MMO be able to beat the pants off a regular multiplayer game? Sorry it failed you on areas you havent tried yet, maybe you should of let that stop you before you brought it, seeing how strong you feel against the game. Its not as if there was plenty of info on the core of the game out there for a long time before release. Plus going back to the original post, I posted the flaws in the argument were wrong for PvP, leaving it just a game that had zones, which was mentioned throughout developement a few yrs ago. So noone vanished in thin air in PvP when about to lose *jedi wave: this is no flaw you are watching*. NDA up until the last minute and a limited beta has not helped in any way to cover up what state the game was in?
u know why crafting is only from 40 and up? cause low lvl crafting is USELESS and always has been, ppl outgrow their stuff way too fast in the early lvls and certainly in AoC
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
u know why crafting is only from 40 and up? cause low lvl crafting is USELESS and always has been, ppl outgrow their stuff way too fast in the early lvls and certainly in AoC
Ah ha! so perhaps we have finally found the innovation!
I auctually enjoy a zone with little or no population. It makes the game feel more like an adventure and your in the wild fighting for yourself. Also I would trade instances for leet graphics because I'm all about graphics in my games. The game breaker for me is that I'm hearing that AOC is linear. I can't stand linear games. They might as well make a movie if it's going to be a series of exact events instead of chosing my own fate (fable wooot). Well I'm still looking for a mmo so I guess I'll just have to wait for the trial. Oh yea this is my first post so wooooooot!!!!!
With the exception of the first 20 mins of play or so (getting from the beach to Tortage) their is nothing Linier about AoC you can swim around problems, climb over areas, or simply in most cases walk around. For those scared by what some of the trolls here have been posting I'd suggest just what your doing. Wait and try it with a buddy key for free. Find out for yourself. Thats something the Trolls here are soo scared of. that people might make their own choices, and form their own opinions. Sure it might not be your cup of tea but at least you'll have figured that out for yourself rather then empowering the trolls here that Constantly post "Don't try this game"
Sorry kids ive been playing it for a week now and have found the class im pursuing.
The game is FUN.I can log in play with people actually accomplish something and not have to play for 4 to 6 hours.The combat is addictive and fun the graphics are top notch and i level with relative ease.Im playing on a PVP Race vs Race server and its even more fun than the pve servers.
I havent had this much fun with a game since AO.Funcom has a proven record of success with AO and i beleive they know exactly where to take this game.
I could care less if its instanced this just makes the game more fun to play.
I love how a number of people were claiming that AoC was going to overshadow Darkfall, that it was its arch nemesis and that it was going to revolutionize the MMO genre. Oh how sad and embarrassed those pathetic individuals must be currently. Folks, Darkfall is the quintessential tribute to how MMOs, or shall I call them persistent universes, should be: Unrestricted, massive and seamless.
Of course Darkfall is not out, and in fact probably never will be released or if it is will be released with far more bug's and crappier graphics. But hey keep on believing the Hype your just setting yourself up for a very big fall.
The fact your trolling here to Hype your mostly vaporware game makes you a fairly sad, embarrassing, and pathetic individual.
Originally posted by Wakygreek Maybe, just maybe its only me. But why are so many people posting their firsts posts as negative threads towards AOC? I mean sure you are welcome to post your opinion, its just very interesting that so many profiles on the forums have 1 post, and its to bash this game.
/shout WTB +50 troll pots for 15 gold.
I thought their post was rational in their objections. There may be an influx of new people that are getting back into gaming and are joining the forums.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
I love how a number of people were claiming that AoC was going to overshadow Darkfall, that it was its arch nemesis and that it was going to revolutionize the MMO genre. Oh how sad and embarrassed those pathetic individuals must be currently. Folks, Darkfall is the quintessential tribute to how MMOs, or shall I call them persistent universes, should be: Unrestricted, massive and seamless.
Of course Darkfall is not out, and in fact probably never will be released or if it is will be released with far more bug's and crappier graphics. But hey keep on believing the Hype your just setting yourself up for a very big fall.
The fact your trolling here to Hype your mostly vaporware game makes you a fairly sad, embarrassing, and pathetic individual.
The fact that you rank flash over substance makes your post entirely irrelevant to me. AoC is a big budget title, Darkfall is mostly independent. I'm not hyping the game anymore than it is entitled. I foresee it being a highly successful niche MMO for sophisticated gamers, not a huge mainstream hit.
Darkfall or no Darkfall. Darkfall is true or Darkfall is vaporware.
The answer is really, really simple:
There is no alternative.
No matter how sceptical I would be under normal circumstances, I have no alternative but to follow and hope for Darkfall. Because if that one doesn't happen, there is nothing but darkness on the horizon.
The reason they have small instances and 48v48 sieges Is obvious. Because its going to be on the Xbox360.
Agreed, this game was designed to be on the 360 eventually. Todays high-end gaming pc's could handle larger zones, less instancing, and more detailed characters on screen at once. But there's no way the 360 could handle a 48v48 with random players cruising up to watch the siege from the sidelines. I think this ultimateley killed the game for me, it's a next-gen console MMO, and it completely feels like it.
*Yawn* Yes, we all get it, Darkfall is "vaporware" because it's been in development for ages. Instead of spending valuable time marketing the game and making as much media noise as possible to get people sold like countless other let-down titles in the past, perhaps they're actually more concerned with developing their ideal game. That's just my own rational stance on the matter, though.
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
*Yawn* Yes, we all get it, Darkfall is "vaporware" because it's been in development for ages. Instead of spending valuable time marketing the game and making as much media noise as possible to get people sold like countless other let-down titles in the past, perhaps they're actually more concerned with developing their ideal game. That's just my own rational stance on the matter, though.
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
So what? Darkfall is an indie project, the more time they spend developing the game, the better it will be in the long run.
And Tabula Rasa was only hyped by ignoramuses. I never thought highly of it, even in its early stages when it wasn't even an action/FPS.
*Yawn* Yes, we all get it, Darkfall is "vaporware" because it's been in development for ages. Instead of spending valuable time marketing the game and making as much media noise as possible to get people sold like countless other let-down titles in the past, perhaps they're actually more concerned with developing their ideal game. That's just my own rational stance on the matter, though.
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
So what? Darkfall is an indie project, the more time they spend developing the game, the better it will be in the long run.
And Tabula Rasa was only hyped by ignoramuses. I never thought highly of it, even in its early stages when it wasn't even an action/FPS.
And 'Darkfall' is only hyped by delusional fanbois. Anyone in their right mind can see that Darkfall will never happen, it's beyond belief why it's still listed on this site. It has become a laughing stock to entire community.
AoC - is there any limit to the depth this genre can plummet to?
We had seamless worlds in 1997 with UO, in 2000'ish with AC, not long after with DAoC, and then the immense SWG.
Planetside with its up to 300 people in the same battle, I heard that Runescape can have 1000vs1000 (can that be true??) in the same battle. DAoC had easily several hundred in the same battle as well.
Now AoC has hit with such a huge success. What the hell is happening? How can the players accept the freedom being taken away from them? How can they accept being confined with technology more limiting than the singleplayer game Oblivion?
Battles confined to instanced battlegrounds chopped off from the world's reality? 48vs48 in each battle - slightly more than Battlefield2 and ALOT less than Joint Operations?
Heavy instancing of the main world, making it totally inconsistent, and allowing for such artifacts as people fleeing combat by switching instance? Two people being at the same spot in the world, but cannot see each other? A nightmare of inconsistency and immersion-breaking, while at the same time crippling (supposedly) important elements like PvP. Proceeding in the world by talking to an NPC, so you can be transported to one of a number of instances of the next area instead of just simply walking there?
Are the players really willingly sitting there, as the developers chip pellet after pellet away on the very foundation of Massive Multiplayer?
The mainstreamification of this genre looks more and more like a curse.
Preach it brother!
I want a seamless world. And yeah, maybe the old mmo's had seams but they were invisible. Well whatever, semantics. I don't care how they achieve the magic, I just want it how it used to be. Screw instances. I say knock the graphics down a notch if that's what you have to do. It's more about gameplay than graphics anyway right?
And screw classes and levels. We don't need them. Give us points to spend wherever we want.
Damn straight to all of the above! Anyone who says otherwise hasn't played enough MMOs to realise it's right! or is a console junky weaned on instanced crap console gaming.
The games success is due more to the lack of good competition than quality. I hate to bring "that" game up but WoW drew in a lot of new players to the genre. A lot of players are bored of WoW plus a lot of people who never got into woW are desperate for a good game. Unfortunately there aren't many alternatives out there.
Vanguard was a bust, LoTRO is technically good but apeals ot a limited group of people. Hellgate London, tabula Rasa, PoTBS all did very poorly. The only thing left is WoW and older games like Eve, SWG, etc.
What i am saying is there is a huge gap in the market and no one is there to fill the void of consumers needs. There is room for many variations of the genre on the market but instead of developers trying to find a good niche game they are trying to make a every size fits all MMO. They try to make an open world, questing, ffa pvp, raiding, quick to level, easy to solo, hardcore game that fails to any of the above well.
AoC does certain things well but fails at others eventually its going to find its niche but its not going to satisfy everyone...accept that fact.
The games success is due more to the lack of good competition than quality. I hate to bring "that" game up but WoW drew in a lot of new players to the genre. A lot of players are bored of WoW plus a lot of people who never got into woW are desperate for a good game. Unfortunately there aren't many alternatives out there. Vanguard was a bust, LoTRO is technically good but apeals ot a limited group of people. Hellgate London, tabula Rasa, PoTBS all did very poorly. The only thing left is WoW and older games like Eve, SWG, etc. What i am saying is there is a huge gap in the market and no one is there to fill the void of consumers needs. There is room for many variations of the genre on the market but instead of developers trying to find a good niche game they are trying to make a every size fits all MMO. They try to make an open world, questing, ffa pvp, raiding, quick to level, easy to solo, hardcore game that fails to any of the above well. AoC does certain things well but fails at others eventually its going to find its niche but its not going to satisfy everyone...accept that fact.
Good analysis. I believe you are right about the void, and I think (hope!) that is part of the reason to the success so far of AoC. It has exploded into that void because there are no real alternatives. Once people realize its poor quality as an MMO, it will go the road of Hellgate London, DDO, PoTBS and TR. I mention those games, because they are guilty of the many of the same Massive Multiplayer breaking tricks as AoC.
We will see after the first month, whether AoC will really be able to keep it up. If they are, then Im truly worried for the future of this genre.
The reason they have small instances and 48v48 sieges Is obvious. Because its going to be on the Xbox360.
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Do you even know what an MMO is?
By your logic you would be fine in BF2.
I started with UO beta so I played MMOs from the beginning.
BF2 is fine, if it is done in a fantasy setting. A game is a game. Why cling to the past? A dungeon is more fun with a group of 5 than 50 people camping the same boss so more people != better.
So if I only need to play with 5 people in a dungeon zone, why care about whether the instance can support more people?
The reason they have small instances and 48v48 sieges Is obvious. Because its going to be on the Xbox360.
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Do you even know what an MMO is?
By your logic you would be fine in BF2.
I started with UO beta so I played MMOs from the beginning.
BF2 is fine, if it is done in a fantasy setting. A game is a game. Why cling to the past? A dungeon is more fun with a group of 5 than 50 people camping the same boss so more people != better.
So if I only need to play with 5 people in a dungeon zone, why care about whether the instance can support more people?
People place way too much importance on a seemless world. The fact of the matter is that AOC's implementation works well for what it is, and despite instances appears seemless regardless. Sure, I'd *rather* have a seemless world, but it does not make or break the game for me. People get way too upset about this. It's such a non-factor.
Comments
thread can be closed now
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
u know why crafting is only from 40 and up? cause low lvl crafting is USELESS and always has been, ppl outgrow their stuff way too fast in the early lvls and certainly in AoC
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
Ah ha! so perhaps we have finally found the innovation!
Sorry kids ive been playing it for a week now and have found the class im pursuing.
The game is FUN.I can log in play with people actually accomplish something and not have to play for 4 to 6 hours.The combat is addictive and fun the graphics are top notch and i level with relative ease.Im playing on a PVP Race vs Race server and its even more fun than the pve servers.
I havent had this much fun with a game since AO.Funcom has a proven record of success with AO and i beleive they know exactly where to take this game.
I could care less if its instanced this just makes the game more fun to play.
What is your physical limit?
PLay Lineage2 much better and refined game.
The fact your trolling here to Hype your mostly vaporware game makes you a fairly sad, embarrassing, and pathetic individual.
I thought their post was rational in their objections. There may be an influx of new people that are getting back into gaming and are joining the forums.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
The fact your trolling here to Hype your mostly vaporware game makes you a fairly sad, embarrassing, and pathetic individual.
The fact that you rank flash over substance makes your post entirely irrelevant to me. AoC is a big budget title, Darkfall is mostly independent. I'm not hyping the game anymore than it is entitled. I foresee it being a highly successful niche MMO for sophisticated gamers, not a huge mainstream hit.
Darkfall or no Darkfall. Darkfall is true or Darkfall is vaporware.
The answer is really, really simple:
There is no alternative.
No matter how sceptical I would be under normal circumstances, I have no alternative but to follow and hope for Darkfall. Because if that one doesn't happen, there is nothing but darkness on the horizon.
The reason they have small instances and 48v48 sieges Is obvious. Because its going to be on the Xbox360.
Agreed, this game was designed to be on the 360 eventually. Todays high-end gaming pc's could handle larger zones, less instancing, and more detailed characters on screen at once. But there's no way the 360 could handle a 48v48 with random players cruising up to watch the siege from the sidelines. I think this ultimateley killed the game for me, it's a next-gen console MMO, and it completely feels like it.
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
So what? Darkfall is an indie project, the more time they spend developing the game, the better it will be in the long run.
And Tabula Rasa was only hyped by ignoramuses. I never thought highly of it, even in its early stages when it wasn't even an action/FPS.
Unfortunately for Darkfall, it's been in production for far too long. Theres no way possible for the game to live up to all the production time its been in. Look at what a dissappointment Tabula Rasa was after its 5 year production time/rewrite.
So what? Darkfall is an indie project, the more time they spend developing the game, the better it will be in the long run.
And Tabula Rasa was only hyped by ignoramuses. I never thought highly of it, even in its early stages when it wasn't even an action/FPS.
And 'Darkfall' is only hyped by delusional fanbois. Anyone in their right mind can see that Darkfall will never happen, it's beyond belief why it's still listed on this site. It has become a laughing stock to entire community.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Preach it brother!
I want a seamless world. And yeah, maybe the old mmo's had seams but they were invisible. Well whatever, semantics. I don't care how they achieve the magic, I just want it how it used to be. Screw instances. I say knock the graphics down a notch if that's what you have to do. It's more about gameplay than graphics anyway right?
And screw classes and levels. We don't need them. Give us points to spend wherever we want.
Damn straight to all of the above! Anyone who says otherwise hasn't played enough MMOs to realise it's right! or is a console junky weaned on instanced crap console gaming.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The games success is due more to the lack of good competition than quality. I hate to bring "that" game up but WoW drew in a lot of new players to the genre. A lot of players are bored of WoW plus a lot of people who never got into woW are desperate for a good game. Unfortunately there aren't many alternatives out there.
Vanguard was a bust, LoTRO is technically good but apeals ot a limited group of people. Hellgate London, tabula Rasa, PoTBS all did very poorly. The only thing left is WoW and older games like Eve, SWG, etc.
What i am saying is there is a huge gap in the market and no one is there to fill the void of consumers needs. There is room for many variations of the genre on the market but instead of developers trying to find a good niche game they are trying to make a every size fits all MMO. They try to make an open world, questing, ffa pvp, raiding, quick to level, easy to solo, hardcore game that fails to any of the above well.
AoC does certain things well but fails at others eventually its going to find its niche but its not going to satisfy everyone...accept that fact.
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Do you even know what an MMO is?
By your logic you would be fine in BF2.
Good analysis. I believe you are right about the void, and I think (hope!) that is part of the reason to the success so far of AoC. It has exploded into that void because there are no real alternatives. Once people realize its poor quality as an MMO, it will go the road of Hellgate London, DDO, PoTBS and TR. I mention those games, because they are guilty of the many of the same Massive Multiplayer breaking tricks as AoC.
We will see after the first month, whether AoC will really be able to keep it up. If they are, then Im truly worried for the future of this genre.
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Do you even know what an MMO is?
By your logic you would be fine in BF2.
I started with UO beta so I played MMOs from the beginning.
BF2 is fine, if it is done in a fantasy setting. A game is a game. Why cling to the past? A dungeon is more fun with a group of 5 than 50 people camping the same boss so more people != better.
So if I only need to play with 5 people in a dungeon zone, why care about whether the instance can support more people?
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Do you even know what an MMO is?
By your logic you would be fine in BF2.
I started with UO beta so I played MMOs from the beginning.
BF2 is fine, if it is done in a fantasy setting. A game is a game. Why cling to the past? A dungeon is more fun with a group of 5 than 50 people camping the same boss so more people != better.
So if I only need to play with 5 people in a dungeon zone, why care about whether the instance can support more people?
Christ...
And 48 is quite enough. How often you see more than 20+ people on screen all at once anyway?
Erm, most MMO's thats why there massive? if I wanted a 48v48 match I'd play COD4 or BF2, ever played Planetside when it was new? That was massive.
People place way too much importance on a seemless world. The fact of the matter is that AOC's implementation works well for what it is, and despite instances appears seemless regardless. Sure, I'd *rather* have a seemless world, but it does not make or break the game for me. People get way too upset about this. It's such a non-factor.