War, on the other hand, took the ladder and smacked you in the head with it. They make no illusions that it is anything more than that. It will come down to who enjoys climbing the ladder.
... or, those who simply enjoy playing the game and are having too much fun to care either way :-p.
Hell, I can think back to games I played as a kid (Atari 2600 era) and compare them to ladders in much the same way. Much simpler ones, albeit.. but ladders nonetheless. The goal of practically any game is to get better, or invoking the ladder comparison - to "get to the top".
Exactly my point. Was merely using the ladder analogy as it is the topic of discussion.
Raben, where did you go? I spent all this time reading everything everyone said and now you seem to be speechless. Heck, this thread went like a ladder.
1. At first a few people thought you were wrong, some agreed with you
2. Then a few more thought you were wrong, you disagreed
3. Then almost everyone said you're not technically wrong but you are stating the obvious.
4. Then almost everyone realized you were stating the obvious and just insulting people, proving nothing.
5. This is the level I hope you are on now. Realizing you're not intelligent and everyone else isn't stupid.
(BTW, I loved the "you might as well say the sky is open" analogy to whoever said that, very clever)
First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is. Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.
I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring. If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same. Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it. The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there. Further more, even the career paths are ladders.
Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.
Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all. Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.
Pretty much what I thought about it.
Nice game, but not enough RPG component in it, it s more like a FPS turnament in a persistent world rather than instanced areas.
Not very appealing to me, but mant people will like it.
I didnt feel like reading thru all 6 pages so someone might have said this already.. to the OP's 1st post.. im not 100% positive but im pretty sure mythic has said from the start they was "making a great "game" not a "world"".
Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.
Rabenwolf,
While I have enjoyed reading most of your responses, due completely to your grammar, I have to wonder as to the true nature of your bringing such higher echelons of thought into these forums. One would assume that a person capable of thinking through whole and complete sentences would also be able to postulate the plausible responses of their audience. While your entire point of view and all susbtantiating arguments may have been expertly constructed, they are more suited elsewhere.
While I'm not a religious person by any means, I beleive a quick google search of "Mathew 7:6" may further assist my point.
Yes Warhammer holds your hand and leads you through the world and level progression, nobody can say otherwise.
Warhammer isn't a sandbox and it's not trying nor pretending to be.
What you describe covers so many games, many of them very popular.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this post really, you could change the word Warhammer to a vast number of other titles and many points would still apply with regards to how characters progress through a game with levels.
What Mythic have done, for the most part, isn't anything new, anyone can see that, but what they have done is looked at many other games, drawn from their experience and repackaged it all under a great IP with some nice innovations of their own on top.
It worked and it's a really fun experience.
You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.
Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.
I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.
I wish I had the same option. Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today. OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here. Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.
Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.
Your telling me to grow up and you post this; "You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line." Cute, just cute.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Your here complaining about how WAR is a ladder yet you "Love" it. What you fail to see is that every bloody game out there has the same "design".
Cant you understand sarcasm Locklain? He wasnt being childish. He typed that sentence to highlight the sort of childish crap WAR troll supporters use.
You just dont get it do you. Clearly your reading skills are NOT up to scratch like he said. Rabenwolf was never complaining about the game. He was just pointing out how simplistic and basic its game design was. I have played plenty of games that I know are actually crap but I can still get enjoyment out of them. In fact I have played very few mmos that I would actually describe as good games. However the fact that I play a game doesnt mean I have to say it is brilliant. I rarely play an mmo because it is good but rather because it is the best on offer.
Yeah you're right every mmo suffers from crappy basic game design like WAR does which is why none of them are ever as good as they could be. Rabenwolf is clearly well aware of this fact as he never said that WAR is worse than any other game.
Rabenwolf is not the troll here. He is the valient knight who has ventured into the uncivilised lands armed with logic and simple fact and as we all know trolls despise these holy weapons and are drawn to them like insects to a bright light.
Keep up the good work Rabenwolf. You are doing a grand job of fighting off the trolls!
I just picked up on this point and I wondered exactly what you meant.
There are more ways to shape your character in Warhammer than I've seen in most games.
First, Mastery Points (Talent Trees)
Second, Renown Points (Alter your stats, resistances, xp gain rate and other things)
Third, Tactics I think you can have 5 or 6 tactics and 10 sets of those to switch between.
Forth, Morale abilities - There are many combinations of these.
Fifth, Talismans and Gear.
These are 5 ways that I can think of of the top of my head to develop your character.
How is that minimal?
Exactly.
The OP made this post to troll WAR but either "A" hasn't read about the game, "B" hasn't played the game, or "C" just wants to troll even knowing what he is saying is false.
Warhammer has more character customization then World of Warcraft does.
Warhammer has a large open world and isn't all closed off like AoC or Guild Wars.
I read the first post and the first thing I thought was TROLL.
I read your post and the first thing I thought was FANBOY.
I have a hard time to understand the OP trying to sound smart with all this talk about a ladder. FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)
FACT: Warhammer has a total of 8 Scenarios per racial pairing (32 total)
FACT: Warhammer has 6 RvR lakes per racial pairing (18 total) You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG! The OP obviously has no idea what he is talking about and obviously knows nothing about the game. OP Please explain to me why this game has no character development! There are more than enough options to develop your character or idividualize it. Maybe you should define character development for us so we know what you mean. Here is what you can do in Warhammer: A. Gear A.1 Loot Gear
A.2 PQ Gear
A.3 Renown Gear
A.4 Epic Quest Gear (very long special quests that span 3 tiers) B. Tactics B.1 Core Tactics
B.2 Renown Tactics
B.3 Tome Tactics C. Abilities C.1 Core Abilities
C.2 Renown Abilities
C.3 Tome/Quest Abilities D. Mastery (3 Branches that can be mixed) Of cause you can also dye your armor or put up to 5 Trophies on it. I fail to see the OPs point of this beeing a ladder or limited in any way. Please enlighten us OP, what exactly where you trying to say with your post?
Here this guy did half the work for me, before I begin I would just like to state that the OP is 100% correct in everything he is stating, for some reason people just can't read or remove the rose tinted glasses long enough to understand what he is saying.
Ok, so the above guy posted some "FACTS". Yes these are all facts good job :-)
Now lets examine these.
FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)
Ok so lets say we have Dwarves and Greens
3 maps -> 1 Fortress -> 1 City
The maps are laid out in progression form.
map 1 = Tier 1
map 2 = Tier 2
Map 3 = Tier 3
Fortress Map Area
map 1 = levels 1-11
map 2 = levels 12 - 22
map 3 = levels 22 - 34
Fortress map = 34 - 40
You can't be level 11 and go run around doing the quest and rvr in map 3. You just can't. This is ladder progression and you skipped the first 2 steps on the ladder.
This is the point of the op. In regards to the world.
"You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG!"
This statement is false.
We will take a look at the Order side for a sec. Nordland.
This zone is broken into 4 Tiers.
We will look at it from a PQ perspective.
Starting out at level 1 I will give you the pepsi challenge to take your level 1 anything and run your lil happy self down near Gotland and participate in any of the Chapter 4 PQ's.
I bet you anything you get 1 shotted by those Champion 10 mobs covering the place.
Now why would this be the case.... prolly because you were ment to do Stage 1, 2 and 3 PQ quest in order to get the "gear" and levels needed to help and be effective at this particular stage of the game. If I caught a level 1 in the stage 4 PQ's I would punch him in the face.
In essence it is a ladder, you should be doing PQ 1,2, and 3 before 4.
Even the gear is a ladder.
We will take realm gear for a sec, you will notice that if you click on any RR vendor at level 4 you have access to a few gear options, if you return to this vendor at level 8, WHAT!? say it isn't so he has more options!!!!?!?!!?
Why would this be? Maybe because you unlocked your next ladder step of armor I would assume.
Anyway you guys are all jumping down the OP's case because he laid out WAR's very Ladder based game design and mechanics in which case he is 100% right.
Nothing wrong with stating it. He likes the game, hell I like the game, but it is one very long and linear ladder climb.
Yeah all games have a similar design, it is just the core to WAR. Deal with it.
First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is. Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.
I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring. If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same. Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it. The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there. Further more, even the career paths are ladders.
Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.
Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all. Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.
In basis, everything the OP has said is true. I reality, this is a clever troll post to lure people into a trap so the OP can in his way shame theme and mock them.
If you deviate just an inch from his post he will tell you, you did not comprehend or read it. Thinking out of the box will snare you. His thought process is very linear, extremely narrow with no diviation. So if you are not in his mind you are wrong.
This is a troll post because it offers nothing that is not known to the community and elicits comment that he can ridicule.
This is one of the most useless posts I have ever seen. The fact that you compare an RPG to a ladder is like comparing the sky to openness. You have stated the obvious and then have tried to come off as an intelligent insider so you could put down those who bring up issue with what you are saying. So what purpose does stating the obvious have? Well, none. Anyone with (contrary to what you have claimed) reading comprehension would pick up on your ulterior motive of trying to belittle Warhammer Online. I will explain why just a few things are incorrect: The maps are a linear ladder? Well, first of all, at any level you might be, you can travel to any spot in the world. Sure, you will get killed, but the world is open. Yes, each tier you must load into, but this is most likely for performance reasons. At least you actually have to travel to the spot where tiers connect (unlike AoC). You claim that the world is sectioned off into tiers and levels. This isn't totally true. The world is labeled, not partitioned. Like I said, you can travel anywhere, but if you travel to a tier 3 area, you will know what to expect. Character progression is a ladder? This is mostly true, but each class has different masteries.
Once again, what you said in your post was mostly true, but it was pointing out the obvious. This can serve no purpose other than to win a semantic battle of trying to show how WAR isn't some golden prodigy. WAR is more of an MMO than most MMOs. In fact, since around 2002, many games have come out with the word "MMO" in the title, yet they weren't actually MMOs (Guild Wars for example).
Well actually there is no real "point" to posting ANY opinion about a game on these forums whether it is obvious or not. None of it effects the game itsef does it. So whats your reason for replying then? All YOU have done is also.....(ya know whats coming)......point out the obvious.
Great so the world is open but if you go to certain areas that are not designed specifically for your level range then you will die. So basicly......its not an open world is it. You have to stay in your little area until you are big enough to move onto the next area. You point fails.
Each class has different masteries. Well big deal! Like the OP said the character customisation is still very limited.....pretty much like any other mmo that has come out before it really.
You think that Rabenwolf is trying to show WAR up as not being some golden prodigy? Errmmm no he wasnt. He just described the design of the game and laid out some facts. The fact that you are so defensive and touchy about your "golden prodigy" says plenty. Your acting as though WAR is a relative of yours or something.
Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.) Many, however, fail or constantly struggle. (Saga of Ryzom) The only real sandbox that I know of that's in development right now is Darkfall, and its future is already iffy. Even if it does manage to deliver on everything it promises, will a sandbox -- no matter how perfectly implemented -- become enough of a success to spark interest among developers in creating this kind of game? And more importantly, will it be enough of a success to show investors that they're not throwing their money away if they back such a game? Games today are a huge investment. 10's to 100's of millions of dollars. Investors do not like risk. They like profits. So it's no surprise that the majority of MMO development goes toward non-sandbox games. Those are the games that historically fare the best. At least Warhammer is trying to be more than much of its competition. Most of the popular MMO's give you only one thing to do for your character's career: PvE. Then at max level they change the game to various time sinks in order to keep you paying your $15 a month. WoW is an excellent example of this. WAR took the approach of making PvE, world RvR and instanced RvR all equally viable methods of advancing your character. So yes, it is a ladder to climb. But at least you have multiple ladders side by side and can move between them at will. That's more of a sandbox than you get with WoW. The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market?
There are other sandbox games in development actually that look rather promising......
@skydragon If you talk about linear progression, then every MMO is a ladder so the point the OP made is totally useless. Why was this even worth a post if all he was going to say is "This game has character progression dependant content"? >> The maps are laid out in progression form. map 1 = Tier 1
map 2 = Tier 2
Map 3 = Tier 3
Fortress Map Area >> WRONG, There are 6 maps for Tier 1 and you can go to all of them while you are in that level range. There are 12 Maps you can go to in Tier 4. So to use the OPs terminology, it is a "very wide ladder". This whole conversation is pointless as both skydragon and the OP know nothing about the game.
My challange stands however, name me one MMO that is not character dependant progression. JUST ONE!
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is. Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.
I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring. If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same. Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it. The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there. Further more, even the career paths are ladders.
Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.
Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all. Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.
Great post OP, i have to borrow elite poster "kylerans" quote here! I sure hope that he doesn't mind!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
with a small modification here, it goes like this
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified post I have seen on these forums for a long time. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to understand past the second line.
you point out two things that is very obvius if you think about it ! The strength that people deny it here actual show how much Mythic have accomplish with this game design! Its a great achivement by mythic! Games is all about selling an illlusion
An important truth in selling is to give a custumer a choice ! It doesn't matter that much if the choice is actual a real one, as long as it is there!( And don't tell them that the choice isn't real , that creates anger! and thats properly where OP gets in trouble)
The Ladder : the game progress very linear, (actual very very linear from chapter to chapter) but the whole 3 pairings is enough to keep the illusion that its not like that ! Mission accomplished by mythic! And thats what matters.
The character development: Again there is alot of choices it looks like , but the more you look into it , they are not that different! But again it doesn't matter if the felling is that there is plenty of choices!
I like to remind people of a game where there really is a differense in character development ! Diablo 2 as an eksample most know! items and skills could went together into creation off truly different character developments ! (as the inventer of the term Mageazon i can talk along time about this!).
I have been in closed, open , head start and are playing now, and i am enjoying every minute of this great game ! But i will be very surprised if i ever find an item, or can chose a skill combination that cant differ from the way laid out in front of me of how to develop a character! I don't complain because the illusion of choice is very well done!
But i think OP nailed it with saying the this is a ladder game and that the items and character development is very very minimal.
First off, I love WAR. Its fun, enjoyable, and entertaining. Dont take this as a flame, but it would be nice for the player base to recognize it for what it is. Warhammer = Linear Ladder system + Counter strike + minimal character development.
I like counter strike, i like unreal tournament, i love the one side vs another side pvp, I also like rpgs and the depth of character development they bring. If you really think about it, you have 3 maps, with players running around in them and they are broken up into 1, 2, 3, and 4. Its a ladder. There is no world, there is no sandbox, no actual depth to the game world. Its just zone 1-4 in which you pvp. There are 3 ladders which you can pick from but they are the same. Its more like... Spore. You start off small, and just advance into the next stage, then the next and thats it. The items and character development are very very very very minimal. It reminds me of the korean f2p mmorpg item types in which you have one set per 10 levels and they are all the same look wise except for a few stat changes here and there. Further more, even the career paths are ladders.
Basically Warhammer online is one big digital Ladder. aka the WARLadder Online.
Its fun, but its also very linear compared to other MMORPGs on the market. Its a clever illusion, which is the basis of game design, but like games like Guild Wars, and even AoC's instance world play, Mythic is making short cuts to get around actually designing a mmorpg world which many have come to expect from the games that started it all. Its not a bad thing, it funnels the pvp, keeps it organized, but its missing the spirit and design of a full fledged mmorpg.
In basis, everything the OP has said is true. I reality, this is a clever troll post to lure people into a trap so the OP can in his way shame theme and mock them.
If you deviate just an inch from his post he will tell you, you did not comprehend or read it. Thinking out of the box will snare you. His thought process is very linear, extremely narrow with no diviation. So if you are not in his mind you are wrong.
This is a troll post because it offers nothing that is not known to the community and elicits comment that he can ridicule.
I feel the same way! I wrote this but I wasn't going to send it...
Please don't encourage Raben, just like you shouldn't feed a bear. He does a good job fighting trolls? He made the thread, like the guy said above somewhere, if he was so intelligent then he should of known the audience he was presenting this to.
He's armored with logic and simple facts? I will agree what he said is simple, he is saying in games you progress through a system. That is what happens in every RPG ever created. You go from one area to the next and progress.
Next, boy I cannot stand these people that start off with "First off... I love this game". I've seen it hundreds of times on this forum alone, its just a way for trolls to make it seem like they are establishing some sort of credibility. These people don't just let their words do it for them because they ALWAYS have another motive, in this case, he clearly doesn't think that highly of the game. And if he does, then what is his motive to post this? It seems like it is to make us see this revelation and agree with it and to accept the game is not that game. Anyone telling me how I should look at a game and what I should feel about it is wasting their time.
As for the logic part, its wrong too. I know he argued his minimal progression point of view, but that's his opinion. Obviously plenty of other people think there is plenty of it, and why Raben thinks he has to convince them they are wrong is beyond me. And this game is somehow like Counter-strike? That is logical? All the games you can pick and you throw CS in there? C'mon
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
Cant you understand sarcasm Locklain? He wasnt being childish. He typed that sentence to highlight the sort of childish crap WAR troll supporters use. You just dont get it do you. Clearly your reading skills are NOT up to scratch like he said. Rabenwolf was never complaining about the game. He was just pointing out how simplistic and basic its game design was. I have played plenty of games that I know are actually crap but I can still get enjoyment out of them. In fact I have played very few mmos that I would actually describe as good games. However the fact that I play a game doesnt mean I have to say it is brilliant. I rarely play an mmo because it is good but rather because it is the best on offer. Yeah you're right every mmo suffers from crappy basic game design like WAR does which is why none of them are ever as good as they could be. Rabenwolf is clearly well aware of this fact as he never said that WAR is worse than any other game. Rabenwolf is not the troll here. He is the valient knight who has ventured into the uncivilised lands armed with logic and simple fact and as we all know trolls despise these holy weapons and are drawn to them like insects to a bright light. Keep up the good work Rabenwolf. You are doing a grand job of fighting off the trolls!
Not once in this entire topic have I said anything about WAR being superior. My entire point here is that WAR is not the only game that uses this ladder mechanic the OP is talking about. Read my first post on this topic and what does it say?
Read my post history if you must Neon. I do not rabidly support any game. So before you start throwing around personal insults perhaps you should check to make sure your own reading skills are "up to scratch".
It's a Jeep thing. . . _______ |___| \_______/ = |||||| = |X| \*........*/ |X| |X|_________|X| You wouldn't understand
Originally posted by aurick The OP's point is very well taken. But is it realistic in today's market? Historically, sandbox games do not do very well. Some can sustain themselves with a small to moderate population, and keep growing over time. (EVE, for example.)
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.
Rabenwolf,
While I have enjoyed reading most of your responses, due completely to your grammar, I have to wonder as to the true nature of your bringing such higher echelons of thought into these forums. One would assume that a person capable of thinking through whole and complete sentences would also be able to postulate the plausible responses of their audience. While your entire point of view and all susbtantiating arguments may have been expertly constructed, they are more suited elsewhere.
While I'm not a religious person by any means, I beleive a quick google search of "Mathew 7:6" may further assist my point.
Truly amazing! Thou art a clever fellow. Please tell me you are sat in an armchair, wearing a twead jacket and smoking a pipe. Please let it be so.
I read your post and the first thing I thought was FANBOY.
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
I thought the OP was having a random discussion, not sure what all the hate is about...People are too touchy here, i read the OP couple more times, i fail to see where he is trolling the game.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
EQ, EQ2, DAOC and WOW were all the same way, they just hid it better. AC and UO were not like this and were what people call sandbox games, too bad they both were mediocre games and got boring fast.
I read your post and the first thing I thought was FANBOY.
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
I thought the OP was having a random discussion, not sure what all the hate is about...People are too touchy here, i read the OP couple more times, i fail to see where he is trolling the game.
The OP was not trolling the game, he was trolling the fanbase.
Man, you sum it all. A ladder. There is a lot of things I did enjoy with WAR, but there where too much I didn't. And one of the main thing was this! It's a ladder!!!!! As I said, it will be a niche game, you'll see in a couple of month.
Comments
... or, those who simply enjoy playing the game and are having too much fun to care either way :-p.
Hell, I can think back to games I played as a kid (Atari 2600 era) and compare them to ladders in much the same way. Much simpler ones, albeit.. but ladders nonetheless. The goal of practically any game is to get better, or invoking the ladder comparison - to "get to the top".
Exactly my point. Was merely using the ladder analogy as it is the topic of discussion.
Raben, where did you go? I spent all this time reading everything everyone said and now you seem to be speechless. Heck, this thread went like a ladder.
1. At first a few people thought you were wrong, some agreed with you
2. Then a few more thought you were wrong, you disagreed
3. Then almost everyone said you're not technically wrong but you are stating the obvious.
4. Then almost everyone realized you were stating the obvious and just insulting people, proving nothing.
5. This is the level I hope you are on now. Realizing you're not intelligent and everyone else isn't stupid.
(BTW, I loved the "you might as well say the sky is open" analogy to whoever said that, very clever)
Pretty much what I thought about it.
Nice game, but not enough RPG component in it, it s more like a FPS turnament in a persistent world rather than instanced areas.
Not very appealing to me, but mant people will like it.
I didnt feel like reading thru all 6 pages so someone might have said this already.. to the OP's 1st post.. im not 100% positive but im pretty sure mythic has said from the start they was "making a great "game" not a "world"".
Rabenwolf,
While I have enjoyed reading most of your responses, due completely to your grammar, I have to wonder as to the true nature of your bringing such higher echelons of thought into these forums. One would assume that a person capable of thinking through whole and complete sentences would also be able to postulate the plausible responses of their audience. While your entire point of view and all susbtantiating arguments may have been expertly constructed, they are more suited elsewhere.
While I'm not a religious person by any means, I beleive a quick google search of "Mathew 7:6" may further assist my point.
You didnt read the original post did you? If you did you chose to ignore it because you felt the need to counter it for most likely personal satisfaction.
Read it again. I made it clear it was designed that way. I made it clear that is a fun game. You just refuse to read, and in turn act stupid by ignoring the contents of the original post.
I'm sorry I wasted my time here. Thankfully the servers are up now.
I wish I had the same option. Sitting at work reading this same crap all day long makes me wonder how the world has made it to where it is today. OP, you have nothing more than conjectures here. Your arguments over semantics are meaningless and unwarranted.
Semantics? Champ, I'm talking about game design here. Dont take it out on me because you are bitter at work. Again your problem is you have 0 ability as far as reading comprehension goes. You just jumped the gun and didnt read anything, much less understand and reply appropriately. You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line. Grow up.
Your telling me to grow up and you post this; "You seem to think everything is a troll post if "WAR is the bestest best omg iloveits" in the subject line." Cute, just cute.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Your here complaining about how WAR is a ladder yet you "Love" it. What you fail to see is that every bloody game out there has the same "design".
Cant you understand sarcasm Locklain? He wasnt being childish. He typed that sentence to highlight the sort of childish crap WAR troll supporters use.
You just dont get it do you. Clearly your reading skills are NOT up to scratch like he said. Rabenwolf was never complaining about the game. He was just pointing out how simplistic and basic its game design was. I have played plenty of games that I know are actually crap but I can still get enjoyment out of them. In fact I have played very few mmos that I would actually describe as good games. However the fact that I play a game doesnt mean I have to say it is brilliant. I rarely play an mmo because it is good but rather because it is the best on offer.
Yeah you're right every mmo suffers from crappy basic game design like WAR does which is why none of them are ever as good as they could be. Rabenwolf is clearly well aware of this fact as he never said that WAR is worse than any other game.
Rabenwolf is not the troll here. He is the valient knight who has ventured into the uncivilised lands armed with logic and simple fact and as we all know trolls despise these holy weapons and are drawn to them like insects to a bright light.
Keep up the good work Rabenwolf. You are doing a grand job of fighting off the trolls!
I just picked up on this point and I wondered exactly what you meant.
There are more ways to shape your character in Warhammer than I've seen in most games.
First, Mastery Points (Talent Trees)
Second, Renown Points (Alter your stats, resistances, xp gain rate and other things)
Third, Tactics I think you can have 5 or 6 tactics and 10 sets of those to switch between.
Forth, Morale abilities - There are many combinations of these.
Fifth, Talismans and Gear.
These are 5 ways that I can think of of the top of my head to develop your character.
How is that minimal?
Exactly.
The OP made this post to troll WAR but either "A" hasn't read about the game, "B" hasn't played the game, or "C" just wants to troll even knowing what he is saying is false.
Warhammer has more character customization then World of Warcraft does.
Warhammer has a large open world and isn't all closed off like AoC or Guild Wars.
I read the first post and the first thing I thought was TROLL.
I read your post and the first thing I thought was FANBOY.
Here this guy did half the work for me, before I begin I would just like to state that the OP is 100% correct in everything he is stating, for some reason people just can't read or remove the rose tinted glasses long enough to understand what he is saying.
Ok, so the above guy posted some "FACTS". Yes these are all facts good job :-)
Now lets examine these.
FACT: Warhammer has 11 Maps per racial pairing plus 2 Fortress zones and 2 city zone (45 total)
Ok so lets say we have Dwarves and Greens
3 maps -> 1 Fortress -> 1 City
The maps are laid out in progression form.
map 1 = Tier 1
map 2 = Tier 2
Map 3 = Tier 3
Fortress Map Area
map 1 = levels 1-11
map 2 = levels 12 - 22
map 3 = levels 22 - 34
Fortress map = 34 - 40
You can't be level 11 and go run around doing the quest and rvr in map 3. You just can't. This is ladder progression and you skipped the first 2 steps on the ladder.
This is the point of the op. In regards to the world.
"You can participate in all of the above. you are not limited to, as the OP put it, "3 maps broken into 1,2,3,4", that statement that is simply put, WRONG!"
This statement is false.
We will take a look at the Order side for a sec. Nordland.
This zone is broken into 4 Tiers.
We will look at it from a PQ perspective.
Starting out at level 1 I will give you the pepsi challenge to take your level 1 anything and run your lil happy self down near Gotland and participate in any of the Chapter 4 PQ's.
I bet you anything you get 1 shotted by those Champion 10 mobs covering the place.
Now why would this be the case.... prolly because you were ment to do Stage 1, 2 and 3 PQ quest in order to get the "gear" and levels needed to help and be effective at this particular stage of the game. If I caught a level 1 in the stage 4 PQ's I would punch him in the face.
In essence it is a ladder, you should be doing PQ 1,2, and 3 before 4.
Even the gear is a ladder.
We will take realm gear for a sec, you will notice that if you click on any RR vendor at level 4 you have access to a few gear options, if you return to this vendor at level 8, WHAT!? say it isn't so he has more options!!!!?!?!!?
Why would this be? Maybe because you unlocked your next ladder step of armor I would assume.
Anyway you guys are all jumping down the OP's case because he laid out WAR's very Ladder based game design and mechanics in which case he is 100% right.
Nothing wrong with stating it. He likes the game, hell I like the game, but it is one very long and linear ladder climb.
Yeah all games have a similar design, it is just the core to WAR. Deal with it.
In basis, everything the OP has said is true. I reality, this is a clever troll post to lure people into a trap so the OP can in his way shame theme and mock them.
If you deviate just an inch from his post he will tell you, you did not comprehend or read it. Thinking out of the box will snare you. His thought process is very linear, extremely narrow with no diviation. So if you are not in his mind you are wrong.
This is a troll post because it offers nothing that is not known to the community and elicits comment that he can ridicule.
Well actually there is no real "point" to posting ANY opinion about a game on these forums whether it is obvious or not. None of it effects the game itsef does it. So whats your reason for replying then? All YOU have done is also.....(ya know whats coming)......point out the obvious.
Great so the world is open but if you go to certain areas that are not designed specifically for your level range then you will die. So basicly......its not an open world is it. You have to stay in your little area until you are big enough to move onto the next area. You point fails.
Each class has different masteries. Well big deal! Like the OP said the character customisation is still very limited.....pretty much like any other mmo that has come out before it really.
You think that Rabenwolf is trying to show WAR up as not being some golden prodigy? Errmmm no he wasnt. He just described the design of the game and laid out some facts. The fact that you are so defensive and touchy about your "golden prodigy" says plenty. Your acting as though WAR is a relative of yours or something.
There are other sandbox games in development actually that look rather promising......
Crusades
Earthrise
Fallen Earth
Mortal Online
One game you say? So I only have to say the word of one game? OK do I win anything for crushing your challenge......
EVE
Great post OP, i have to borrow elite poster "kylerans" quote here! I sure hope that he doesn't mind!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
with a small modification here, it goes like this
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified post I have seen on these forums for a long time. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to understand past the second line.
you point out two things that is very obvius if you think about it ! The strength that people deny it here actual show how much Mythic have accomplish with this game design! Its a great achivement by mythic! Games is all about selling an illlusion
An important truth in selling is to give a custumer a choice ! It doesn't matter that much if the choice is actual a real one, as long as it is there!( And don't tell them that the choice isn't real , that creates anger! and thats properly where OP gets in trouble)
The Ladder : the game progress very linear, (actual very very linear from chapter to chapter) but the whole 3 pairings is enough to keep the illusion that its not like that ! Mission accomplished by mythic! And thats what matters.
The character development: Again there is alot of choices it looks like , but the more you look into it , they are not that different! But again it doesn't matter if the felling is that there is plenty of choices!
I like to remind people of a game where there really is a differense in character development ! Diablo 2 as an eksample most know! items and skills could went together into creation off truly different character developments ! (as the inventer of the term Mageazon i can talk along time about this!).
I have been in closed, open , head start and are playing now, and i am enjoying every minute of this great game ! But i will be very surprised if i ever find an item, or can chose a skill combination that cant differ from the way laid out in front of me of how to develop a character! I don't complain because the illusion of choice is very well done!
But i think OP nailed it with saying the this is a ladder game and that the items and character development is very very minimal.
In basis, everything the OP has said is true. I reality, this is a clever troll post to lure people into a trap so the OP can in his way shame theme and mock them.
If you deviate just an inch from his post he will tell you, you did not comprehend or read it. Thinking out of the box will snare you. His thought process is very linear, extremely narrow with no diviation. So if you are not in his mind you are wrong.
This is a troll post because it offers nothing that is not known to the community and elicits comment that he can ridicule.
I feel the same way! I wrote this but I wasn't going to send it...
@neonwire ;
Please don't encourage Raben, just like you shouldn't feed a bear. He does a good job fighting trolls? He made the thread, like the guy said above somewhere, if he was so intelligent then he should of known the audience he was presenting this to.
He's armored with logic and simple facts? I will agree what he said is simple, he is saying in games you progress through a system. That is what happens in every RPG ever created. You go from one area to the next and progress.
Next, boy I cannot stand these people that start off with "First off... I love this game". I've seen it hundreds of times on this forum alone, its just a way for trolls to make it seem like they are establishing some sort of credibility. These people don't just let their words do it for them because they ALWAYS have another motive, in this case, he clearly doesn't think that highly of the game. And if he does, then what is his motive to post this? It seems like it is to make us see this revelation and agree with it and to accept the game is not that game. Anyone telling me how I should look at a game and what I should feel about it is wasting their time.
As for the logic part, its wrong too. I know he argued his minimal progression point of view, but that's his opinion. Obviously plenty of other people think there is plenty of it, and why Raben thinks he has to convince them they are wrong is beyond me. And this game is somehow like Counter-strike? That is logical? All the games you can pick and you throw CS in there? C'mon
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
Not once in this entire topic have I said anything about WAR being superior. My entire point here is that WAR is not the only game that uses this ladder mechanic the OP is talking about. Read my first post on this topic and what does it say?
Read my post history if you must Neon. I do not rabidly support any game. So before you start throwing around personal insults perhaps you should check to make sure your own reading skills are "up to scratch".
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You wouldn't understand
How is EVE a sandbox or not as the OP put it ladder based? It is just cleverly hidden but EVE is a ladder as all MMOs are. Just because there is no character level does not make EVE special. In EVE the ladder is standing with Corporations, that is essentially a level. In EVE your level is also defined by the amount of time you trained which translates to experience. You can not train battlecruiser before you learned spaceship command IV and Cruiser III, it is a ladder as all other games are.
Just had to comment on this, EVE is a very good MMO, but it is the same as all the others in terms of ladder or linear progression.
Thats a really dumb statement. How is EVE a linear game when you can go ANYWHERE at any "level"? The game doesnt restrict you based on how skilled your pilot is so in fact it is nothing like the other mmos at all. There are indeed ladders of progression but the game does not restrict how you choose to play the game based on those ladders. In EVE you can fly and survive anywhere if you are a wise pilot and know what you are doing.
You fail.
It was pointed out already but you can do the same in WAR, you go to any Tier you want in any area. You will just die in a lot of them because you're not strong enough. Its the same in EvE, you can't waltz into 0.0 right off the bat in the game and waltz right back out. And you already admitted it IS a progression ladder system, just like every game is.
I used to listen to what you used to say neon, but right now you're making that pretty hard to respect even reading what you are trolling here.
Rabenwolf,
While I have enjoyed reading most of your responses, due completely to your grammar, I have to wonder as to the true nature of your bringing such higher echelons of thought into these forums. One would assume that a person capable of thinking through whole and complete sentences would also be able to postulate the plausible responses of their audience. While your entire point of view and all susbtantiating arguments may have been expertly constructed, they are more suited elsewhere.
While I'm not a religious person by any means, I beleive a quick google search of "Mathew 7:6" may further assist my point.
Truly amazing! Thou art a clever fellow. Please tell me you are sat in an armchair, wearing a twead jacket and smoking a pipe. Please let it be so.
The Mathew 7:6 quote fits perfectly to! Oh wow!
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
I thought the OP was having a random discussion, not sure what all the hate is about...People are too touchy here, i read the OP couple more times, i fail to see where he is trolling the game.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
EQ, EQ2, DAOC and WOW were all the same way, they just hid it better. AC and UO were not like this and were what people call sandbox games, too bad they both were mediocre games and got boring fast.
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
I thought the OP was having a random discussion, not sure what all the hate is about...People are too touchy here, i read the OP couple more times, i fail to see where he is trolling the game.
The OP was not trolling the game, he was trolling the fanbase.
Best thing to do to a Troll.... Block the troll. Hey look another Troll.
Best thing to do to a Fanboy.....block the Fanboy. This conversation is easy.
Man, you sum it all. A ladder. There is a lot of things I did enjoy with WAR, but there where too much I didn't. And one of the main thing was this! It's a ladder!!!!! As I said, it will be a niche game, you'll see in a couple of month.
Who cares if WAR is this way? Diablo 2 was more of a ladder than anything else, and I played the hell out of that game.
Looking for something new.