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I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.
Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.
Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.
If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.
And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.
Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:
“Vaporware? Not at all!”
Let me ask you a simple question:
Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?
Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.
And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.
You sould not have used the strawman Ad hominem analogie twice in a row, it undercuts your debate-mojo. Now you only look like a guy who recently found out what "strawman and Ad hominem" means.
You are slipping man! shape up!
*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.
I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.
Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.
Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.
If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.
And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.
Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:
“Vaporware? Not at all!”
Let me ask you a simple question:
Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?
Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.
And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.
Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.
When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.
I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.
So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?
My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.
And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.
I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.
Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.
Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.
If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.
And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.
Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:
“Vaporware? Not at all!”
Let me ask you a simple question:
Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?
Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.
And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.
Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.
When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.
I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.
So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?
My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.
And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.
And you've missed the point. Right now, there is no other question really, except when will DF release, or if it will release at all.
Its the 10000 pound gorilla in the room that cannot be ignored. If you want to talk graphics, mechanics etc, go to the DF forums, I'm sure people are having great discussions over there.
Here we take the approach, why bother with discussing all that, if the game isn't going to release sometime in our lifetime.
You blame the trolls, ( I'll wear the label proudly) but the blame lies on Aventurine. They could stop all the madness, yet chose not to.
See, trolling isn't a bad thing, and the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.
You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.
Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.
Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.
If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.
And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.
Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:
“Vaporware? Not at all!”
Let me ask you a simple question:
Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?
Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.
And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.
Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.
When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.
I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.
So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?
My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.
And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.
And you've missed the point. Right now, there is no other question really, except when will DF release, or if it will release at all.
Its the 10000 pound gorilla in the room that cannot be ignored. If you want to talk graphics, mechanics etc, go to the DF forums, I'm sure people are having great discussions over there.
Here we take the approach, why bother with discussing all that, if the game isn't going to release sometime in our lifetime.
You blame the trolls, ( I'll wear the label proudly) but the blame lies on Aventurine. They could stop all the madness, yet chose not to.
See, trolling isn't a bad thing, and the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.
Disrupting threads is a bad thing. It is denying others the chance to discuss things they are interested in on this site. I guess reading through 5 pages of flames and snide remarks on the Graphics in a thread about the music makes sensee to you and as you say you're ok with that which is fine. I guess I just expect a bit more intellegence and maturity from the MMORPG community is all. Thanks for telling me that I shouldn't expect that from you guys lol.
Any updates on this or maybe getting some staff to interview or get into beta? Obviously you guys would have told us if you had gotten in, but was wondering if you could tell us if you have made contact at all.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
About the NDA: No, still no response.
About getting staff into beta: I think Woopin is sending some e-mails around, but still no responses yet. I will say this though: I may not be too interested in Darkfall, but let me into beta, release me from the NDA, and give me two solid weeks. At the end of it, I can give my personal assurance that there would not be a single person who would question the legitimacy of Darkfall.
I'm starting to doubt I'll ever get a response to the NDA thing. I don't know what to do about it, to be fair. I might just delete the thread (or unsticky and lock it: I don't like outright deleting things because it looks like a coverup attempt, which is the last impression I want to give), because the initial purpose of this thread was to stem the lightweight NDA violations I was seeing and clarify the "can I say I'm in beta" point which invariably comes up with all NDAs. (I didn't see anything conclusive for what it's worth, just a few "Yeah I'm in beta" posts.) Anybody who would have violated the NDA has probably got the picture by now anyway.
If I don't get any responses and I do lock the thread, I'll start talking to the other staff and the CM about the viability of warning people for NDA-covered content without actually having a copy of the NDA. It's a fair point, and I do intend to bring it up.
That's about it for now, though.
About the NDA: No, still no response.
About getting staff into beta: I think Woopin is sending some e-mails around, but still no responses yet. I will say this though: I may not be too interested in Darkfall, but let me into beta, release me from the NDA, and give me two solid weeks. At the end of it, I can give my personal assurance that there would not be a single person who would question the legitimacy of Darkfall.
I'm starting to doubt I'll ever get a response to the NDA thing. I don't know what to do about it, to be fair. I might just delete the thread (or unsticky and lock it: I don't like outright deleting things because it looks like a coverup attempt, which is the last impression I want to give), because the initial purpose of this thread was to stem the lightweight NDA violations I was seeing and clarify the "can I say I'm in beta" point which invariably comes up with all NDAs. (I didn't see anything conclusive for what it's worth, just a few "Yeah I'm in beta" posts.) Anybody who would have violated the NDA has probably got the picture by now anyway.
If I don't get any responses and I do lock the thread, I'll start talking to the other staff and the CM about the viability of warning people for NDA-covered content without actually having a copy of the NDA. It's a fair point, and I do intend to bring it up.
That's about it for now, though.
Thanks for the update.
If DF stays true to its word about the development timeline, it seems like we may all be in open beta before they would get back to you and set something up.
Only time will tell I guess.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
Can't very well enforce an NDA agreement that you don't know really exists. Seems like people can say whatever they like unless you hear otherwise from Aventurine.
Better to beg forgiveness than permission.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Problem is DarkFall forums Community Mang told them what was enforced, which is the same thing the DF mods are going by. What VPellen had asked for originaly he did recieve, the Mang. told them what was to be enforced it is now MMORPG.com's choice to honor what they said they will do or throw it out the window for this one game.
On the plus side though VPellen has informed us that we may now freely constantly question the existance of every other game not launched in every thread made about said game and not fear warnings or bans. I mean if we were to get warnings or bans for doing the same to the other games what VPellen has said is ok for DarkFall then that would be showing bias against DarkFall specificaly.
So in short it is now ok to post in any thread concerning a not yet launched game and say it's vaporware, that it will fail even if it does launch and post excessively negative comments about it as well as hijack threads. If you are warned for doing so or banned simply show the posts here where VPellen said it was ok. ^^ thanks VPellen.
Problem is DarkFall forums Community Mang told them what was enforced, which is the same thing the DF mods are going by. What VPellen had asked for originaly he did recieve, the Mang. told them what was to be enforced it is now MMORPG.com's choice to honor what they said they will do or throw it out the window for this one game.
On the plus side though VPellen has informed us that we may now freely constantly question the existance of every other game not launched in every thread made about said game and not fear warnings or bans. I mean if we were to get warnings or bans for doing the same to the other games what VPellen has said is ok for DarkFall then that would be showing bias against DarkFall specificaly.
So in short it is now ok to post in any thread concerning a not yet launched game and say it's vaporware, that it will fail even if it does launch and post excessively negative comments about it as well as hijack threads. If you are warned for doing so or banned simply show the posts here where VPellen said it was ok. ^^ thanks VPellen.
???
Where did you get that logic?
I think what VPellen was saying is that he has not seen the official NDA from DarkFall. So, he can not say with certainty if the NDA does in fact restrict even mentioned that you are in Beta, which is the main point that is under discussion I think.
We have seen the official NDA for most (all?) other major MMOs when they were at similar stages of Beta. Many of them in fact post it on their official web-page so that all may freely view what is and is not covered by the NDA. When this same document was requested of DarkFall by VPellen there has been only silence.
So again... how does your logic flow again? I'm a bit more dense than the average poster... so please explain it to me slowly so that I understand. Thanks.
Humm so questioning things is bad? We should never question things and just have unwavering belief because well obviously everything we see typed on the internet is the truth? Really Ghost thats kinda silly. I mean its very evident that many of the DF fans don't want any differing opinions or anything less then Glowy positive responses, but it is kinda sad. Unless you were unfairly silenced in another games forum here for questioning things i don't see the point of your post other then to somehow express your displeasure that MMORPG has not removed these freedoms. The forum are about oppinions pretty much and sure you can try and play forum police to try and silence those with opinions other then yours but do you really want to?
In the end really, what hurt does it do you or Darkfall if people actually do use their minds and question things like why we can't get a copy of the NDA which would have been sent to all of Darkfalls beta testers already? Why on a forum should we have to believe or shutup? Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong but it surely comes across as a immature "Oh well if people can post negative opinions in DF forums then I'm gonna go post negatives things in every other forum to get even." post.
Humm so questioning things is bad? We should never question things and just have unwavering belief because well obviously everything we see typed on the internet is the truth? Really Ghost thats kinda silly. I mean its very evident that many of the DF fans don't want any differing opinions or anything less then Glowy positive responses, but it is kinda sad. Unless you were unfairly silenced in another games forum here for questioning things i don't see the point of your post other then to somehow express your displeasure that MMORPG has not removed these freedoms. The forum are about oppinions pretty much and sure you can try and play forum police to try and silence those with opinions other then yours but do you really want to?
In the end really, what hurt does it do you or Darkfall if people actually do use their minds and question things like why we can't get a copy of the NDA which would have been sent to all of Darkfalls beta testers already? Why on a forum should we have to believe or shutup? Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong but it surely comes across as a immature "Oh well if people can post negative opinions in DF forums then I'm gonna go post negatives things in every other forum to get even." post.
People love exluding the fact that I stated several times I don't mind if there not intentionaly disrupting other threads and topic hijacking. If they were refrained to threads relating to such a topic or create a thread for the topic then I would be fine and this would not be against MMORPG.com's rules however this isn't how it is working they are making these comments repeatedly in threads not concerning this issue and pretty much making discussion on many things impossible and VPellen has said this is ok and that if the trolls did not do this then no one would talk about DFO.
So unlike the picture you try to paint it isn't believe or shutup it's try being a bit more respectful to others and quit hijacking threads and topics ...... Hope that clears it up for you lol I guess this would be the 3rd or 4th time ive repeated this. Maybe i'll get lucky and you won't need a 5th lol.
Problem is DarkFall forums Community Mang told them what was enforced, which is the same thing the DF mods are going by. What VPellen had asked for originaly he did recieve, the Mang. told them what was to be enforced it is now MMORPG.com's choice to honor what they said they will do or throw it out the window for this one game.
On the plus side though VPellen has informed us that we may now freely constantly question the existance of every other game not launched in every thread made about said game and not fear warnings or bans. I mean if we were to get warnings or bans for doing the same to the other games what VPellen has said is ok for DarkFall then that would be showing bias against DarkFall specificaly.
So in short it is now ok to post in any thread concerning a not yet launched game and say it's vaporware, that it will fail even if it does launch and post excessively negative comments about it as well as hijack threads. If you are warned for doing so or banned simply show the posts here where VPellen said it was ok. ^^ thanks VPellen.
???
Where did you get that logic?
I think what VPellen was saying is that he has not seen the official NDA from DarkFall. So, he can not say with certainty if the NDA does in fact restrict even mentioned that you are in Beta, which is the main point that is under discussion I think.
We have seen the official NDA for most (all?) other major MMOs when they were at similar stages of Beta. Many of them in fact post it on their official web-page so that all may freely view what is and is not covered by the NDA. When this same document was requested of DarkFall by VPellen there has been only silence.
So again... how does your logic flow again? I'm a bit more dense than the average poster... so please explain it to me slowly so that I understand. Thanks.
Sure, VPellen wanted clarification on DFO's NDA, DFO community manager gave him clarification although not an actual copy of the DarkFall NDA. VPellen then made a post pertaining to this. MMORPG.com's stance on the matter is that they will respect the NDA's of the games. So... VPellen got the information he requested from someone in a position to know that information.
Now basicaly VPellen was told saying you are in Beta is against the NDA, who is in more of a position to say what is against the NDA VPellen, MMORPG.com, The community manager here? or the community manager on the official forums that is using the same information to moderate his forums.
So your saying that VPellen shouldn't uphold the NDA because he only got the information from someone in a position to know instead of recieving a written copy.
People love exluding the fact that I stated several times I don't mind if there not intentionaly disrupting other threads and topic hijacking. If they were refrained to threads relating to such a topic or create a thread for the topic then I would be fine and this would not be against MMORPG.com's rules however this isn't how it is working they are making these comments repeatedly in threads not concerning this issue and pretty much making discussion on many things impossible and VPellen has said this is ok and that if the trolls did not do this then no one would talk about DFO.
So unlike the picture you try to paint it isn't believe or shutup it's try being a bit more respectful to others and quit hijacking threads and topics ...... Hope that clears it up for you lol I guess this would be the 3rd or 4th time ive repeated this. Maybe i'll get lucky and you won't need a 5th lol.
Humm I didn't see Vpellen say anywhere that its ok now to hijack threads. AFAIK its still possible to report any post for thread hijacking. As for Disrupting threads I'd guess at times thats a pretty thin line to skate. The Fans IMO seem to be a bit more thin skinned about what may or may not be disruptive then the doubters, but once again you CAN still report a post for trolling if indeed it is such a post.
So unless you can show me where Vepellen has stated its ok now to hijack threads and Troll (ie be highly disruptive) as you above claim I don't see your point. Sorry guess you'll have to go for a 5th time here, a little actual proof to back up your statements would be nice of course.
Problem is DarkFall forums Community Mang told them what was enforced, which is the same thing the DF mods are going by. What VPellen had asked for originaly he did recieve, the Mang. told them what was to be enforced it is now MMORPG.com's choice to honor what they said they will do or throw it out the window for this one game.
On the plus side though VPellen has informed us that we may now freely constantly question the existance of every other game not launched in every thread made about said game and not fear warnings or bans. I mean if we were to get warnings or bans for doing the same to the other games what VPellen has said is ok for DarkFall then that would be showing bias against DarkFall specificaly.
So in short it is now ok to post in any thread concerning a not yet launched game and say it's vaporware, that it will fail even if it does launch and post excessively negative comments about it as well as hijack threads. If you are warned for doing so or banned simply show the posts here where VPellen said it was ok. ^^ thanks VPellen.
???
Where did you get that logic?
I think what VPellen was saying is that he has not seen the official NDA from DarkFall. So, he can not say with certainty if the NDA does in fact restrict even mentioned that you are in Beta, which is the main point that is under discussion I think.
We have seen the official NDA for most (all?) other major MMOs when they were at similar stages of Beta. Many of them in fact post it on their official web-page so that all may freely view what is and is not covered by the NDA. When this same document was requested of DarkFall by VPellen there has been only silence.
So again... how does your logic flow again? I'm a bit more dense than the average poster... so please explain it to me slowly so that I understand. Thanks.
Sure, VPellen wanted clarification on DFO's NDA, DFO community manager gave him clarification although not an actual copy of the DarkFall NDA. VPellen then made a post pertaining to this. MMORPG.com's stance on the matter is that they will respect the NDA's of the games. So... VPellen got the information he requested from someone in a position to know that information.
Now basicaly VPellen was told saying you are in Beta is against the NDA, who is in more of a position to say what is against the NDA VPellen, MMORPG.com, The community manager here? or the community manager on the official forums that is using the same information to moderate his forums.
So your saying that VPellen shouldn't uphold the NDA because he only got the information from someone in a position to know instead of recieving a written copy.
Why is it such a hard thing for Aventurine to provide? Why is it so hard for them to provide a copy of the NDA like so many other MMOs do without even being asked for it? It's not asking for much, is it?
But then again... I guess that would be questioning someone associated with DarkFall... and that is forbidden. Sorry, I forgot that part again.
VPellen as myself and other posters have commented, you cant enforce an NDA you don’t even have a copy of yourself, its absurd and it damages the credibility of this website in my opinion.
You would be giving credibility to Aventurines public beta claims threw complacency or association, and collaborating in a potentially misleading activity.
If Aventurine expect the largest and best MMORPG website to host forums, news items and enforce the NDA for their game, they have to at least respond to representatives of this website professionally when even the most basic inquires concerning their NDA have been made.
I personally don’t believe there actually is an NDA, because the “public” beta is still only for a very few people closely associated with the developers, and that’s why they have just ignored your inquiry.
And I believe that their CM’s declaring the NDA says you cant say you are in Beta is just a damage control attempt to prevent it being obvious how few people are actually currently in this “public” beta.
But of course this games open beta phase will be ending in early December and the game will be launching in 2008, so this is all immaterial.
But lets no set a precedent for any other companys that might announce its in public beta and then expect this site to enforce its NDA without actually providing a copy of the NDA or responding to requests for a copy of that NDA.
It may surprise you to know that technically, you're right. Yes, it is acceptable to go into a forum and suggest that the game is vaporware if it genuinely is your opinion and you're not doing it to stir up trouble. The key point that people don't seem to understand about the supposed vaportrolls is that it's not trolling if you genuinely do believe what you're saying. Excessive negative comments are something you will almost certainly not get yourself warned for. Topic hijacking? Maybe, if you don't start your own thread. Flame-baiting? Maybe, if it seems obvious you're just trying to cause trouble. But excessive negative comments? I doubt very much you'll get warned for that. Opinions are opinions. You're allowed to have them, and you're allowed to share them.
Come to think of it, if you want me to start banning people for expressing their opinions, why should I stop with the guy who thinks the game is vaporware? Why not the guy who thinks the NGE is bad, or the guy who thinks AoC sucks, or the guy who thinks WoW is killing the industry, or the guy who thinks Korean MMOs are typically grindfests? Why not all of them? Hell, why stop there? Why not go into the vet forums and ban anybody who says anything good about the game in its current state? Why not hang around here and start banning everybody who says that Darkfall is going to be good? They're doing it without having played the game, after all. They're just trying to get the vaporware guys riled up. That's flame baiting, right there.
As for the NDA..
Something people keep missing: We're not enforcing an NDA. When we warn somebody on the NDA rule, we're not warning them because they broke a contract, we're warning them because they're disclosing content covered by a contract. That's why you can get an NDA warning without actually ever having signed the NDA. The rule doesn't really affect you unless you're posting information covered by the NDA. The only reason you can get a warning for saying you're in the beta is because technically that information is covered by the NDA too. If Zorvan is in a beta, and I say that Zorvan is in a beta, I'm the one who gets the warning because I'm the one who disclosed information covered by the NDA.
On a personal note (emphasis on personal, opinions following), I do understand why people are edgy about the whole thing, and (to me personally) it hardly seems unreasonable to believe that Darkfall has an NDA which covers its beta content. I mean, Christ, name me one large scale modern MMO which doesn't have an NDA covering its beta content. I asked a guy for an NDA to clear up a minor fact, and in return he cleared up the one minor fact which I was curious about anyway. Is his word not good enough? Is it unreasonable to assume that a community manager knows his game has an NDA? Is it unreasonable to assume that a game has an NDA? Because in the end, that's what it all comes down to.
^^^^^ you just owned everyone of those stupid posts about the NDA...
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
You guys are free to mod whatever way you see fit. Time of day, phase of moon, personal allegiences, go crazy. But if this is the new policy, it would probably be best to update the rules of conduct page to reflect it. Or to read it if you haven't yet. I'm not sure if its even required reading material for mods.
http://www.mmorpg.com/disclaimers.cfm#conduct
Trolling
* Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Tell me about it. I've been bitching about the outdated state of the ROC for months.
Edit: Just to clarify, the ROC does need updating, but the issue about excessive negative comments I've dealt with a page or two back: Namely that it's horribly subjective and open to interperetation. I didn't say you wouldn't get warned for it, I said it was extremely unlikely.
It may surprise you to know that technically, you're right. Yes, it is acceptable to go into a forum and suggest that the game is vaporware if it genuinely is your opinion and you're not doing it to stir up trouble. The key point that people don't seem to understand about the supposed vaportrolls is that it's not trolling if you genuinely do believe what you're saying. Excessive negative comments are something you will almost certainly not get yourself warned for. Topic hijacking? Maybe, if you don't start your own thread. Flame-baiting? Maybe, if it seems obvious you're just trying to cause trouble. But excessive negative comments? I doubt very much you'll get warned for that. Opinions are opinions. You're allowed to have them, and you're allowed to share them.
Come to think of it, if you want me to start banning people for expressing their opinions, why should I stop with the guy who thinks the game is vaporware? Why not the guy who thinks the NGE is bad, or the guy who thinks AoC sucks, or the guy who thinks WoW is killing the industry, or the guy who thinks Korean MMOs are typically grindfests? Why not all of them? Hell, why stop there? Why not go into the vet forums and ban anybody who says anything good about the game in its current state? Why not hang around here and start banning everybody who says that Darkfall is going to be good? They're doing it without having played the game, after all. They're just trying to get the vaporware guys riled up. That's flame baiting, right there.
As for the NDA..
Something people keep missing: We're not enforcing an NDA. When we warn somebody on the NDA rule, we're not warning them because they broke a contract, we're warning them because they're disclosing content covered by a contract. That's why you can get an NDA warning without actually ever having signed the NDA. The rule doesn't really affect you unless you're posting information covered by the NDA. The only reason you can get a warning for saying you're in the beta is because technically that information is covered by the NDA too. If Zorvan is in a beta, and I say that Zorvan is in a beta, I'm the one who gets the warning because I'm the one who disclosed information covered by the NDA.
On a personal note (emphasis on personal, opinions following), I do understand why people are edgy about the whole thing, and (to me personally) it hardly seems unreasonable to believe that Darkfall has an NDA which covers its beta content. I mean, Christ, name me one large scale modern MMO which doesn't have an NDA covering its beta content. I asked a guy for an NDA to clear up a minor fact, and in return he cleared up the one minor fact which I was curious about anyway. Is his word not good enough? Is it unreasonable to assume that a community manager knows his game has an NDA? Is it unreasonable to assume that a game has an NDA? Because in the end, that's what it all comes down to.
To Winter and Xzyax hope this clears up the question of my logic lol.
Thanks VPellen, guess I just read to much into the ROC. I understand and I guess it is a bit tricky seemed like many of us read to much into it. I also thank you for clearing up the NDA issue.
I think you did a fine job getting what was asked for VPellen. As far as I'm concerned, we can just go from the CMs' response about there being an NDA and leave it at that. If it, by some chance, turned out there were no NDA or beta, you did your part and any negative connotations would be on the Darkfall CM.
And I would very much like to see the RoC here revamped, as I have been one of the ones in the past hit with the "excessive negative comments" warning ( big surprise there, huh? lol ).
Personally from years of experience I think its unreasonable to assume anything concerning this game.
But if the word of Brannoc is good enough for this site then that’s that.
Thanks for the time you spent on this VPellen, just reaffirms why I think this is not just the biggest but also the best MMORPG website.
"VPellen as myself and other posters have commented, you cant enforce an NDA you don’t even have a copy of yourself, its absurd and it damages the credibility of this website in my opinion.
You would be giving credibility to Aventurines public beta claims threw complacency or association, and collaborating in a potentially misleading activity.
If Aventurine expect the largest and best MMORPG website to host forums, news items and enforce the NDA for their game, they have to at least respond to representatives of this website professionally when even the most basic inquires concerning their NDA have been made.
I personally don’t believe there actually is an NDA, because the “public” beta is still only for a very few people closely associated with the developers, and that’s why they have just ignored your inquiry.
And I believe that their CM’s declaring the NDA says you cant say you are in Beta is just a damage control attempt to prevent it being obvious how few people are actually currently in this “public” beta.
But of course this games open beta phase will be ending in early December and the game will be launching in 2008, so this is all immaterial.
But lets no set a precedent for any other companys that might announce its in public beta and then expect this site to enforce its NDA without actually providing a copy of the NDA or responding to requests for a copy of that NDA."
Seems to contradict each other, but atleast your being a bit more logical and reasonable now.