Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
I see what you're saying...big difference between chemical enhancement of an already addictive substance to increase consumption/cha-ching and what SOE is doing with TCG. Don't get me wrong..I don't agree with what they are doing but if someone can pump money for pack after pack and still be unaffected financially...so be it. If it causes stress and monetary woe then...the buyer needs to seriously reconsider the need for "the fastest speeder bike ever" or an animal farm.
I understand its an addiction. I smoked for 20 years. Never seemed to affect my health..(although I know better...and realize cigarettes are not good for you)...when it did start to contribute to high blood pressure and other health issues...I quit cold turkey...been 7 months without...feel much better and no desire to smoke at all. (I still need to lose some poundage but thats another story)..I don't see how quitting an apparent TCG addiction should be any harder
...As for TCG regulation..well according to several posts from someone...I think it's Sharkypal and another I can't remember..the ball is seemingly "on the roll" for a resolution on the exact nature of the TCG..SWG will probably be down to 3 players or shut down altogether by then....or maybe rolling in the multi millions from the desire of so many for UBERLOOT cards....
Oh well, people are probably tired of my comments on this...so I officially retire from the SWG/TCG threads..and await the final verdict (if I even remember the topic by that time).
Honestly someone who spends hundreds of dollars trying to get an item in a game only has themself to blame. That's the problem with things today, everyone has to try to blame everyone else but themself. Someone is overweight? Well lets blame McDonalds or some other fast food place and not ourselves for eating 17 double cheeseburgers a day. If a person spends that much money trying to get some in game item they are probably the same type of person who buys a lot of in game money, power leveling, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen none of the loot cards are things that are absolutely necessary to play the game, its just extra things that people for some reason need to have. People need to take accountability for what they do.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
I see what you're saying...big difference between chemical enhancement of an already addictive substance to increase consumption/cha-ching and what SOE is doing with TCG. Don't get me wrong..I don't agree with what they are doing but if someone can pump money for pack after pack and still be unaffected financially...so be it. If it causes stress and monetary woe then...the buyer needs to seriously reconsider the need for "the fastest speeder bike ever" or an animal farm.
I understand its an addiction. I smoked for 20 years. Never seemed to affect my health..(although I know better...and realize cigarettes are not good for you)...when it did start to contribute to high blood pressure and other health issues...I quit cold turkey...been 7 months without...feel much better and no desire to smoke at all. (I still need to lose some poundage but thats another story)..I don't see how quitting an apparent TCG addiction should be any harder
...As for TCG regulation..well according to several posts from someone...I think it's Sharkypal and another I can't remember..the ball is seemingly "on the roll" for a resolution on the exact nature of the TCG..SWG will probably be down to 3 players or shut down altogether by then....or maybe rolling in the multi millions from the desire of so many for UBERLOOT cards....
Oh well, people are probably tired of my comments on this...so I officially retire from the SWG/TCG threads..and await the final verdict (if I even remember the topic by that time).
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
Wow.... 23 pages of ppl complaining if this is gambling or not...
Well here is the answer everyone, so DEAL WITH IT.
Each game you buy is a gamble... lots of games you get has the BASIC too play. then IF you want more you either have too PAY too get the expansions... PAY too get items or PAY too play longer or even PAY too play online. whatever it is..... each company has there BASIC... (SWG is BASIC) and each company that makes games last longer or adds new excitements have EXTRAS.... which obviously you have too PAY... like for example... SWG has Loot Cards... if you want somthing new and exciting.. you have too PAY too get it... Some will pay more then others but you sitll have too PAY... Is that gambling? only if your trying too get one specific item and you keep buying and buying and buying too try too get it... but wait... thats not Gambling... thats Chance... you pay for something you WANT. So you can be happy and just play the game as IS.... or you can take a CHANCE and buy loot cards after loot cards too get what you WANT... thats not gambling thats just economy. Most ppl learn about the Economy in grade 5... but alot of MMORPG players havent reached Grade 5 yet so obviously you would get ppl like in here writing threads like is this gambling or not lol... Hmmm but that would mean im part of this under grade 5 group... Ah no i am not... because maybe i type like a grade 5er lol but i know that this isnt gambling this is economy
Dang, sounds like a genius idea. Taking advantage of all the stupid people who don't know how to conserve their money, especially in a time of recession in the United States (not that all people affected by this Oh Noez TCG stuff are in the US of course) is absolutely genius.
Luckily World of Warcraft's implementations of absolutely pointless things like changing your character look/sex changes and security keys (HAHAHA) don't actually give you anything advantageous in the game really. New looks but that's about it, whereas the SWG:TCG is offering in game items that the remaining, dwindled population is obviously going balls to the wall crazy over because they were crazy enough to stick with a game that was the pinnacle of open-end sandboxing years ago. Have faith in yourself, not in a game that is controlled by a company who is laughing at you when it comes to a large amount of money like that.
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
ok...lol...one last reply..nothing much. I agree about addiction and believe physical and psychological addictions are undeniably linked. One of the oldest axioms from the Emerald Tablets...which equates to "As Above so below...and as below so above"..just as changes in local economy affect the national economy and the other way around......changes in the mind reflect changes in the body and vice versa...I understand now what you were saying in the way SOE handles the TCG...I see your point. Still not fully convinced it can be classified as "gambling"... mostly due to the devious(clever?) way in which SOE instituted the TCG as it intertwines with SWG and vice versa. ..That is all.
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
ok...lol...one last reply..nothing much. I agree about addiction and believe physical and psychological addictions are undeniably linked. One of the oldest axioms from the Green Tablets...which equates to "As Above so below...and as below so above"..just as changes in local economy affect the national economy and the other way around......changes in the mind reflect changes in the body and vice versa...I understand now what you were saying in the way SOE handles the TCG...I see your point. Still not fully convinced it can be classified as "gambling"... mostly due to the devious(clever?) way in which SOE instituted the TCG as it intertwines with SWG and vice versa. ..That is all.
Thanks for the chat. I've really enjoyed dialoguing with you about this . See you on another thread some time.
Wow.... 23 pages of ppl complaining if this is gambling or not...
Well here is the answer everyone, so DEAL WITH IT.
Each game you buy is a gamble... lots of games you get has the BASIC too play. then IF you want more you either have too PAY too get the expansions... PAY too get items or PAY too play longer or even PAY too play online. whatever it is..... each company has there BASIC... (SWG is BASIC) and each company that makes games last longer or adds new excitements have EXTRAS.... which obviously you have too PAY... like for example... SWG has Loot Cards... if you want somthing new and exciting.. you have too PAY too get it... Some will pay more then others but you sitll have too PAY... Is that gambling? only if your trying too get one specific item and you keep buying and buying and buying too try too get it... but wait... thats not Gambling... thats Chance... you pay for something you WANT. So you can be happy and just play the game as IS.... or you can take a CHANCE and buy loot cards after loot cards too get what you WANT... thats not gambling thats just economy. Most ppl learn about the Economy in grade 5... but alot of MMORPG players havent reached Grade 5 yet so obviously you would get ppl like in here writing threads like is this gambling or not lol... Hmmm but that would mean im part of this under grade 5 group... Ah no i am not... because maybe i type like a grade 5er lol but i know that this isnt gambling this is economy
It's possible you missed this piece of information on page 11: Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance." As you say, people are purchasing TCG card packs for the chance of winning a loot item for SWG. What you don't seem to realize is that this does in fact appear to fit the definition of internet gambling to the letter.
If you like, there are posts that contrast the loot item gamble to things like baseball cards and product promotions as well. There are a lot of different perspectives on this issue, and many are very well thought out. Reading through the thread could be enlightening.
Obviously people feel very strongly about this for there to be so many pages of posts. When this is the case, there's probably a notable reason for it.
People are still asking how the loot items embedded in the TCG differ from things like McDonald's monopoly game. I went to the McDonald's site for the rules of their game. This should shed some light:
"MONOPOLY® 2008 Game at McDonald's®
OFFICIAL RULES
NO PURCHASE IS NECESSARY TO PARTICIPATE. PURCHASE WILL NOT IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. "
With SOE, money must change hands in order for you to get a chance at loot items (even via the monthly subscription), and people are trying to increase their chance of winning by spending more money on additional card packs. That seems very different to me.
Baseball cards require you to buy them for a chance at a rookie or all star card Magic and Blizzard do not guarantee the card you want either SOE TCG still provide you with cards, you just have a chance to get a in game loot card, just like the above.
You do NOT have to spend money to get a pack of cards, you get a 5 pack booster set every month for FREE Blizzard charges 15 bucks for a character makeover which almost every other mmorpg does for free
hmm...here I thought SWG players had to pay $15 a month to get the 5 monthly boosters.
Baseball cards require you to buy them for a chance at a rookie or all star card Magic and Blizzard do not guarantee the card you want either SOE TCG still provide you with cards, you just have a chance to get a in game loot card, just like the above.
You do NOT have to spend money to get a pack of cards, you get a 5 pack booster set every month for FREE Blizzard charges 15 bucks for a character makeover which almost every other mmorpg does for free
Oh hey there Miagi, didn't know you were online . If SWG was free to play, it would be more similar to the McDonald's promotional. It's not, however, so the "free" cards aren't actually free. Customers receive them as part of their monthly subscription fee. Now even subscribing has a chance reward attached to it as an intermittent reinforcer. Some people, in fact, are trying to "beat the system" by avoiding the purchase of additional card packs. How are thy doing this? By subscribing month after month in the hope of getting a random loot item in their monthly packs.
There are some obvious problems with this. First, the odds of receiving a desired item via the subscription method are not publicly verified. People can sub for years (theoretically) in the hope of getting a podracer that they may never get. Worse than that, since the odds of winning can be manipulated in SOE's favour, by them, at any time, outside of the player's awareness, people may be waiting for certain loot to drop in vain. The longer they wait, the more likely they are to try to increase their chances of winning by purchasing additional card packs. However, even the odds of winning by this method are not independently verified.
Simply put: "no purchase necessary" does not apply to the loot card gamble. You either pay your subscription and hope you get lucky via the long road, or you try to shorten your journey by buying additional card packs. SWG is not "free to play," so players receive zero card packs for "free."
The reason I'm highlighting this aspect of the situation is that the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act specifies that random rewards are just fine in free to play games.
Also, regarding the baseball cards. People paying for baseball cards are hoping to get just that, baseball cards. In the TCG, the loot items are not part of the card game at all. They have no function in the card game. They are rewards that enhance another online entertainment service. Rewards that people are gambling real money to get. Rewards that are becoming increasingly more necessary in a game that these people already pay a subscription fee for.
If you like SWG, or even SOE for that matter, I see that as your perogative. I can respect your preferences, even if mine differ. Can you see the differrence between the McDonald's promotional and the TCG loot though? Do you see how this also seems to differ from buying baseball cards? For that matter I'm sure there are rare trading cards in the TCG that people are hoping to get. That's fine by me. People buying trading cards are getting trading cards, rare or common. The loot items, however, are simply not part of this game. I'd prefer people buying cards to actually own them, but that's another issue entirely.
actual the cards in game (if i remember correctly) are like the legends of Norrath game. You can compete and play against other people. So no different than purchasing say a Magic the Gathering card game. You collect these cards, then "battle" if you will, against others online. Only difference is that you are paying for virtual property rather than physical. I could be wrong, it has been a very long time since i checked out the card game in SWG, but you can do this in EQ2 under the Legends of Norrath card game. I have never bought a booster pack, but i do get some free from time to time, even loot them in game or trade them with others.
actual the cards in game (if i remember correctly) are like the legends of Norrath game. You can compete and play against other people. So no different than purchasing say a Magic the Gathering card game. You collect these cards, then "battle" if you will, against others online. Only difference is that you are paying for virtual property rather than physical. I could be wrong, it has been a very long time since i checked out the card game in SWG, but you can do this in EQ2 under the Legends of Norrath card game. I have never bought a booster pack, but i do get some free from time to time, even loot them in game or trade them with others.
This is a very important point Miagisan. This is a key misunderstanding. The loot cards do not have a function in the TCG. They are separate from, but embedded in, the card game. The loot items are not used in any part of TCG gameplay. You do not use them to battle against others in the card game. They are only valuable as advantages to SWG gameplay (e.g. fastest vehicle in the game, combat buffs).
If they were simply rare cards for the card game itself, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
You are right that other card games also have printed cards that you own (even WoW). This is another concern people have about the virtual loot items. After you pay x amount of dollars and finally win one (if you're lucky) SOE can still nerf it, delete it, or render it obsolete. Also, the printed card games have publicly verified odds of getting something rare. This is not so with the TCG loot items. You never know if that deck is stacked against you.
I have nothing at all against your average trading card game. I play two of them actually, and they're a lot of fun. SOE could have structured their TCG like all these other games. My issue is that they haven't done that, and that all the ways their TCG is unique seem to put consumers at a disadvantage.
Would it be nice to know your odds of winning, and have these verified? Absolutely. Other card games do this. Would it be nice to actually own a printed card that you could trade with others? Yes, it probably would. Would it be better if SOE left the loot items out of the TCG, to avoid having people gamble for them, and instead just included the loot in SWG as a content update? Yes, why not?
Wouldn't it be nice to do a new instance, for example, and get a random loot drop of a pod-racer? I'm sure it would. Even better, wouldn't it be nice to get a random drop of a schematic for a pod-racer to add to the crafting game as well as introduce new vehicles for all? Yeah, why not?
Unfortunately, none of these "nice" things appear to be true of these loot items. Also, the cards you receive as part of your monthly subscription are "no trade." This diminishes their value. To get the best loot items, and be able to trade them ingame, the only way is to gamble for them (literally) by purchasing TCG card packs. People have been doing this to the tune of a few hundreds dollars, and often losing.
Yes, you can question their judgment, but I also think it's fair to question the way the game it set up. It reminds me of a crooked shell game, and people running those ran afoul of the law.
to each his own i guess me personally, i don't find it terribly news worthy, i think the fact that another game is charging 15 bucks to change the appearance of your character is more of a scam than this
to each his own i guess me personally, i don't find it terribly news worthy, i think the fact that another game is charging 15 bucks to change the appearance of your character is more of a scam than this
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
to each his own i guess me personally, i don't find it terribly news worthy, i think the fact that another game is charging 15 bucks to change the appearance of your character is more of a scam than this
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
Yes, again you make the point that distinguishes SOE's usual nefarious behaviour from that of it's competition. Unfortunately, these defining points seem to be lost on many of the people who post here.
to each his own i guess me personally, i don't find it terribly news worthy, i think the fact that another game is charging 15 bucks to change the appearance of your character is more of a scam than this
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
Yes, again you make the point that distinguishes SOE's usual nefarious behaviour from that of it's competition. Unfortunately, these defining points seem to be lost on many of the people who post here.
S
Well, some people might accuse me of bias, but I do try to just call it as I see it. I'd like to compare some of my comments now, with some that I made a few years back. Before anyone pro-SOE gets defensive, let me say that I want to highlight player feedback, and two things I think SOE did right in response to it.
The backstory is this: SOE and LEC had just had a marketting campaign about their Trials of ObiWan expansion. One of the main selling points was new creatures to tame, and special loot for creature handlers. Of course, as a result of this, many creature handlers purchased the expansion.
The day after the expansion went live, LEC/SOE announced the deletion of the creature handler profession, effective in 13 days time.
Players, myself included, cried foul. It was very clear that this information should not have been withheld, and that many players purchased the expansion under false pretenses.
Now, here's what SOE did right. They admitted that they did not communicate with players as they should have. (There's plenty more they did wrong about this, but this admission was one positive step). They then refunded the money that people paid for the expansion. This was a massive refund campaign, and it was the right thing to do.
Now, many people were highly disparaging of players who cried foul. They said we were off our nut, that we should grow up and get a life, and stop complaining about a videogame etc.. This loot card deal is not that different in the way it's playing out.
Again, something's happening that has people feeling scammed, and players are crying foul. My hope is that once again, SOE will listen and find a way to compensate those who have been negatively impacted.
I'm aware that players contacted attorney generals etc. regarding the expansion. I don't know if this directly led to the refunds or not. Players are crying foul again, and authorities are being consulted again. I hope that once again players will be reimbursed for their losses.
Personally, I don't think gambling for SWG loot items should be part of the TCG. The TCG itself seems like something people could enjoy; but the SWG loot items, in my view, should be made available via SWG gameplay, not a game of chance involving real dollars.
The SOE community rep said in a recent post that the loot items will not be made available via SWG gameplay because it would be unfair to those who gambled for the loot and won. She worded it differently of course (didn't use the "g" word). If they were compensated for all the money they spent trying to get those loot items, however, it wouldn't seem so unfair, would it?
Well, let me address those who are comparing this to CCGs and Baseball cards and hopefully enlighten the difference.
Back in the beginning of CCG, there was an ante mechanic. That went away rather quickly from both games I collected (Magic and Vampire) because it WAS gambling.
Now to things today.
The baseball card parallel would be accurate for the following.
There are two seperate set of cards. One is a collection one, one is a TCG. Now, they set up the TCG so that in order to get the most powerful cards in the game, you have to buy and collect the regular trading cards, they do not give you the odds of actually getting one of the cards for the TCG in the regular trading cards. But in order to be competitive in the TCG, you have to get the TCG cards from the regular trading card series.
Buying trading cards, is random chance yes, but getting one card is no different than another because the chance of each card is the same. If it isn't, they tell you the proportions between common, uncommon, rare etc.
In the SWG example, we have to go further....
The card maker allows you to "win items" randomly distributed in "FREE" packs. But, the "FREE" ones you get, you only get if you pay a monthly fee to play in the tournament league and those cards are marked as non-tradable, registered and controlled, where you only have access to them if you come to a sactioned league game. You can purchase additional packs that are tradable that have prizes in them, but there's an extra stipulation, the prizes are still property of the card manufactorer and they can revoke your access to them at any time, you are legally bound (EULA) not to sell them for real money unless you have their express permission to do so. Does this make things better or worse, I have no idea legally (but I have strong personal opinions about it)
As for the gambling/lottery aspect, I think it's more along the lottery personally. You are paying (wether through your subscription or when you buy more packs) for an item (second life had a legal battle that I think did find that "virtual items" can have a value) that is NOT a part of the TCG. You get 5 chances with your $15 subscription and can buy more chances for $3 (I think).Since this mechanism (loot cards) is obviously marketed and targeted to the MMO side of the game, and only the MMO side of the game because they have NO affect on the TCG, then it is reduced to a lottery drawing. Does this help put things into a new light?
One last thought about "prizes" in other contests like McDs. If you want the items, you can go out and purchase them. In this game, you cannot. Another aspect that affects this? I think so, but again, I do not know the legal side of it.
Thank you all for your time tonight. Have a good night all.
Thanks for the info. Trev, interesting and enlightening .
You know as I look at the whole TCG, I see so many overlapping strategies designed to reinforce spending that it's almost mind-boggling:
1. The cards that you get as part of your subscription are "no trade." They therefore don't have the same value in the game as the loot items you win by gambling for them. This encourages people to buy additional card packs hoping to increase their chances of winning the premium loot.
2. The drop rate of the no trade items is unknown. People may pay their subscription for months and never get what they want, and never really know what their chances are. Also, there chances to win could be manipulated outside of their awareness. Impatience may then encourage people to buy additional card packs, hoping to win a particular item.
3. Buying additional cards packs for the chance of obtaining loot, and winning has the same psychological reinforcement as winning at slots. Every once in a while, you get lucky. This enticing people to pay their money and pull the lever one more time.
4. The loot items embedded in the TCG do give SWG players advantages in the game: combat buffs, faster vehicles, unique structures.
5. Since you've already paid a subscription fee, you may not want to be a second class character (e.g. one without the latest, best gear or buffs). People may then be motivated to gamble so that the character they have already invested in remains competitive.
6. People often like to collect cards in TCGs. After you've made a nice deck and collection for yourself, you need to keep subscribing to have access to it with this TCG, since you never actually own any printed cards.
All of these overlapping strategies do something we call "shaping" in my field. They shape behaviour. In this case the behaviour being shaped is giving money to SOE.
Thanks for the info. Trev, interesting and enlightening . You know as I look at the whole TCG, I see so many overlapping strategies designed to reinforce spending that it's almost mind-boggling: 1. The cards that you get as part of your subscription are "no trade." They therefore don't have the same value in the game as the loot items you win by gambling for them. This encourages people to buy additional card packs hoping to increase their chances of winning the premium loot. 2. The drop rate of the no trade items is unknown. People may pay their subscription for months and never get what they want, and never really know what their chances are. Also, there chances to win could be manipulated outside of their awareness. Impatience may then encourage people to buy additional card packs, hoping to win a particular item. 3. Buying additional cards packs for the chance of obtaining loot, and winning has the same psychological reinforcement as winning at slots. Every once in a while, you get lucky. This enticing people to pay their money and pull the lever one more time. 4. The loot items embedded in the TCG do give SWG players advantages in the game: combat buffs, faster vehicles, unique structures. 5. Since you've already paid a subscription fee, you may not want to be a second class character (e.g. one without the latest, best gear or buffs). People may then be motivated to gamble so that the character they have already invested in remains competitive. 6. People often like to collect cards in TCGs. After you've made a nice deck and collection for yourself, you need to keep subscribing to have access to it with this TCG, since you never actually own any printed cards. All of these overlapping strategies do something we call "shaping" in my field. They shape behaviour. In this case the behaviour being shaped is giving money to SOE.
Also keep in mind that whatever you are seeing in SWG's card game is just a warm-up for Free Realms and The Agency which will both be RMT scams.
Be warned, this is going to be a TL:DR post for those who arn't discussing this seriously.
I read the whole thread. This was very interesting. Allow me to give my neutral point of view.
I don't play SWG. I have never played SWG. I never intended back then, now, or in the future to play SWG, regardless of how great the game is or is not, because I am not interested in playing a Star Wars-based MMORPG, and therefore I fall out of the game's target audiance. However, I do not hold any hate, disgust, or prejudice against the game. I enjoy the Star Wars Intellectual Property, and I enjoy MMORPGs. I do not want to play a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion not because the game isn't meeting any standards that I would want, but because I am just simply not interested in playing a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion. I will not be purchasing SW:TOR either due to my disinterest, and even though I am disinterested, I hold no biase towards the game because I have not played the game, and thus it would be foolish for me to make any opinionated remarks on a game that I have never played and don't have any interest to play either. So please, consider my thoughts on the subject, as my thoughts are from a true neutral point of view about the topic at hand, and not because a previous biase was or is lingering to taint my opinion. I hold no like or dislike for SWG, and I hold no like or dislike for SoE. Now for the topic at hand...
From what I have read in this thread, and at other sources through educated research, SoE is definitally breaching a law. The TCG's game-enhancing Loot Cards do have a market value, and a very strong one at that, using the $300 worth of some Loot Cards at auction sites as an example.
Futhermore, the TCG isn't a true TCG either. There are no physical, tangable cards in your ownership. There is no true ability to freely trade since your subscritpion's 'free' booster packs are not tradable. And there is no security in ownership of any of these since SoE, from their own EULA, state that the cards are their digital property, to be modified or deleted at their discretion. Furthermore, you can't even play the TCG unless you purchase a SWG subscription. If one wanted to trade their excess cards to a friend(who does not wish to pay money into the TCG but is interested) to allow them to play the TCG, the person would be unable to do this, because not only are some cards untradable, but the game REQUIRES a subscription to be played, therefore it would force his friend to subscribe if he ever wished to play the TCG, and not only would he have to subscribe, but he would need an internet connection to even view the cards and play the game.
If we compare SWG's TCG to other games, you will see big, glaring differences. Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering are popular TCGs that we can start with. Yes, the cards have a monetary value, but the value is for the card itself to be used with the card game in question, or because the card is rare due to a misprint, a change in artwork on future cards, or even a balance change that banned the card or changed the card's abilities in newer versions of the game, but still allowed the older version of the card to be used in playing the game properly, officially and fairly. If one were to lose interest and stop playing M:TG or Pokemon, they can archive their cards away, sell their cards, or give them away, or even trash them if truly desired. However, they still own the card because they have the card. It is physical, it can be touched, and it is a product of the game that was purchased or obtained by the owner in some way, shape or form. Outside of losing the card through misplacement, a debacle of the owner's fault, or theft, the card is, and will always be, under their ownership and belong to the person who owns it, and this cannot be revoked, even if the person never purchases anymore cards of the game. Even if the game stops being produced, the cards remain to be traded, collected, or even played with for as long as the cards can physically exist in the ownership of those that bought the cards. This factor also makes card collecting an indirect investment, as it is this reason that many other card-type entities(Such as baseball cards) have high value and high collectability.
Now lets look at some other TCGs with more differences than our traditional TCGs, such as the World of Warcraft TCG and even Magic: The Gathering Online. Lets start with the WoW TCG first.
The WoW TCG is also legitimate, even though there are game altering items, similar to the case in the SWG TCG case. However, the WoW TCG does things differently that legitimizes it. Firstly, you do not have to have a World of Warcraft subscription, or have ever subscribed in the first place, to be allowed to play the WoW TCG. You don't even have to purchase cards to be allowed to play, as you could simply be given cards from someone else, and now have enough cards to participate in the game that the cards are meant for. Booster Packs and the like are available for purchases for those who want cards for the TCG, and of course, these cards vary in rarity and thus it is a change the purchaser takes. However, whatever the cards are that he gets from the booster pack, the cards are, and always will be except for theft and mishaps as outlined before, under his ownership. The cards are physical, solid entities that are tangible, and thus are true property, so it mimics the properties of other card games like Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering perfectly... except for the loot cards. The loot cards in WoW's TCG link it in similarity to SWG's TCG, but there are a few BIG exceptions.
First off, loot cards you get in WoW's TCG do NOT require you to be subscribing to the actual World of Warcraft MMORPG, nor do you actually have to ever have played the MMORPG game or be playing the MMORPG game to receive a loot card. Second, unlike SWG's TCG, with the WoW TCG's loot cards, you are receiving a physical, tangible entity(the loot card) if you get one in the packs, or if someone gives you it. You truly 'own' the loot card, because it is a physical entity, and is NOT a digital entity, such as SWG's TCG. If the WoW TCG ever stopped production, or World of Warcraft stopped maintaining servers, you still own the physical entity that is the loot card, and thus it can still be considered an investment in collectability and tradability, and the loot card can hold monetary value for desire of the physical entity in your posession by any avid collectors. The same is not the case for SWG's TCG, as there is no physical entity, trade is restricted to some of your cards, you cannot collect any cards of the SWG TCG unless you actually play the game, and when the SWG service ends, the TCG will most likely end with it since it is linked to the SWG subscription, and thus all your digital cards will vanish since you never had physical ownership of it to begin with. Thirdly, the loot cards in WoW's TCG do NOT give players of the MMORPG an advantage if they manage to get them. The items obtained by the TCG Loot Cards for use in the MMORPG are either cosmetic or offer the player to receive the in game loot something that has no effect on the core gameplay of World of Warcraft. The loot card's actual item received in World of Warcraft is moreso for 'bragging rights' than for 'a competitive advantage', which is, as far as I know, NOT the case with the SWG TCG's loot cards. Fourthly, the loot cards you receive in the WoW TCG function as actual cards as well, cards that can be used in the TCG and thus still retains a purpose to those who do not play the World of Warcraft MMORPG. The loot cards in SWG's TCG, as far as I know, do NOT have any purpose other than to give the person a SWG item. The loot card cannot by itself be used in the TCG, and thus for the people who play only the TCG and not SWG, would be worthless to the person purchasing the pack, and thus be disadvantageous to the player to actually receive one, because getting a loot card instead of other cards in the TCG means that the 10 card booster pack you bought for cards to use in the TCG was actually 9 cards(or even less) and a useless-to-you loot card, and thus you would feel a notion of being ripped off, receiving only 9 or less actual usable cards, and a useless-to-you loot card that can't be used to enhance the TCG experience because it has no use within the TCG itself. Yes, you may be able to trade and sell the loot card to other people and receive money and/or cards back from any transaction you took with that loot card, but once again, these are trades, actions and prices that arise only because a non-usable card in the TCG was inserted into the booster packs of cards intended to be used in the TCG. In essence, these cards force TCG players to interact with SWG players in non-TCG ways if they wish to make their purchased loot card, a product of monetary investment in a TCG, useful for not only the purchase of the card, but also to make up for receiving only 9 cards instead of 10 out of a booster pack(or worse). This is not the case in WoW's TCG, as the cards have an actual use in the TCG as a card, and thus never forces a person who does not play the MMORPG to have to interact with anyone of the MMORPG to put their card, their investment of money, to usage.
Then we have the case of Magic: The Gathering Online. Like SWG's TCG, M:TGO uses digital cards that are purchased for money, and payment to use their services is required. Some cards are even unique to MTGO that are not available to MTG players. However, unlike SWG'S TCG, collecting these digital cards does have an ultimate purpose for the player, especially since MTGO and MTG are the exact same game(One is digital, one is physical, but both play exactly the same). If a player collects an entire series of cards(either by buying packs, trading individual cards for other cards, for currency, or as a gift, or winning them through skillful play), they are able to trade them in and actually receive in the mail every single card of the set they had collected. They have the ability to turn their digitally owned cards(Which are owned by the player, NOT the company when they are purchased, even in their digital form) into solid, physical entities, real cards, that can be used in the Magic: The Gathering TCG, and thus enjoy the same qualities of life as a regular purchase of Magic: The Gathering cards. M:TGO allows you to turn your digital property into physical property(If you collect the series of cards, that is). Through this method, there even exists cards for the offline, physical TCG that are only obtainable through the online, digital TCG, but they are not gamebreaking or gamechanging enough to warrant direct want of them from true players, though collectors will find them worth quite a bit. In essence, while MTGO has something available from it that benefits the offline game that can't be gotten elsewhere, these is no demand for these cards because they are not necessary in the least bit to be competitive, unlike the SWG TCG loot cards having loot that changed the competitiveness of the SWG game. And also, SWG's TCG cannot have its cards turned into physical entities under any condition, unlike MTGO, therefore once again ruining any 'investment' the player makes into the cards for worth after the game stops production and/or ceases to exist, as these cards do not and will never exist physically.
As you can see, compared to the other TCGs out there, SWG's TCG has so many faults with it, that even people playing it for the TCG itself are being scammed, as you are required to pay into a different game to play it, you are unable to trade your cards received from said subscription, you are unable to physically hold or touch your cards as they do not and will not ever exist in a physical form, and when the SWG game's service ends(face it, a game has to end its service someday), the cards are gone for good, never to be seen again. And even if they never end service, you must pay a subscription fee, the fee being equivalent to what you would pay for a AAA MMORPG, to even have access to your cards. Forfeit the subscription and you forfeit your right to play the TCG with cards you 'own'.
Therefore, where is the incentive to play and purchase the SWG TCG? TCGs exist, survive and leave a legacy based on the incentive to have people purchase the cards in the first place. In Magic the Gathering's case, we can see multiple incentives to purchase the cards, such as for playing the TCG, for getting better cards for your deck for the TCG, for making multiple decks without borrowing from other decks, for outright collecting for prospective income from selling to another collector or player, or to just collect simply to be a collector of Magic: The Gathering cards. Some people even buy Magic: The Gathering cards simply for the beautiful artwork on the card. These incentives are what put a price on the cards themselves, the booster packs, and the future of the game. Useful cards to players will always net a high price because they will be low in circulation for collectors to collect, and/or low in circulation for players to play with. Thus collectors will post high price offers to collect and archive the card, and players will post high price offers to purchase the card in order to utilize it in their deck. The same can be said for Pokemon's TCG, Magic the Gathering's Online TCG, and even World of Warcraft's TCG. The same cannot be said for SWG's TCG.
Why is SWG not like the other TCGs above? Because unlike them, the cards are not real(and will never be real) and hold no value for collectors to invest in. The game itself also cannot be played or shared to play with other people easily as it is purely digital AND linked to a subscription based online game which you MUST purchase the subscription of in order to play, and MUST be online to play. The game also has untradable cards that remain untradable if you received them from the 'free' booster packs, thus destroying the point of the 'trading' in the Trading Card Game acronym. The cards can be changed for balance reasons at the will of the publisher, reducing their collectability. And you can receive cards, loot cards, useless to the TCG as they do not have any positive effect on the TCG and cannot be used in a deck for the TCG. Their only use loot cards have for a TCG player, as far as I can see, is removing a potential card from the player's booster packs.
And the worst part is, the actual playing cards from the TCG have no real currency value, as traders barter with cards or in-game currency to trade the playing cards and NOT real money. On the other hand, the loot cards, cards that are useless to the TCG player, not only do they hold a monetary value in the real world, but some hold a SIGNIFICANT value. And while you can say this is a great boon for the TCG player since they can sell the card and make actual profit from selling the card, there does exist a problem, and the problem does not lie with the selling of the loot card(Even WoW loot cards are sold every now and then). The problem lies in the target audiance of the loot card, the SWG players. These loot cards of the SWG TCG benefit ONLY the SWG player, and hold no benefit and no reason to collect for the TCG player.
These loot cards apparently have siginificant, game changing advantages over what is obtained in the actual game. History in gaming shows that players want to remain competitive, and will do what it takes to remain there. PC game players that don't play MMORPGS, but other games like Counter Strike, Crysis, Call of Duty, Starcraft, and other competitive games will buy expensive computers, heavy duty high quality ISP service, expensive peripherals, comfortable clothing, high quality chairs, desks, and all other things all to achieve the perfect ambiance and perfect setting to play their game at the top competitive level and to remove hinderances getting in their way. And even if players are not top quality tournament level, they will still want to play a game well, and will typically purchase a computer that can run it, broadband internet, and a decent monitor, mouse and keyboard, and mabye other things. And even if they don't purchase all these things, the players can still play just fine on a crappy computer with crappy equipment, but on a technical scale, they are at no true disadvantage over other players because they have the same access to the same game, and player skill and tactics will still be in the majority of how things are settled. Those who are competitive enough, however, will purchase and upgrade to play and perform better in order to stay at the top of the competition. The same holds true in MMORPGs. Players will do boring, time consuming and repetitive leveling processes, quests, raids, crafting, and other things in order to be competitive and at the top. In free to play games, like MapleStory(Most successful Free to play MMORPG available), players purchase things that assist them in leveling faster, hitting harder, or moving around the globe of the game quicker, or just to not have to worry about using potions and whatnot, because it makes the player able to play at a higher performance rating than they were able to before, and thus people will upgrade as their budget allows to become better, or in games with no shops like World of Warcraft, will invest as much time as possible to get the best equipment in the game to be competitive.
These loot cards offer game changing advantages that are not easily available to players that don't buy TCG cards. While that would be dandy and fine, the major problems are that players are already paying a AAA fee to play SWG, and there doesn't exist in-game non-TCG equivalents to what is available. So SWG players will buy into the TCG, hoping to receive a loot card, or they'll pay an extreme amount of real-life currency to purchase said loot card. This, however, indirectly preys on a major psychological problem: Gambling Addiction.
A SWG player who wants to remain competitive, but has no desire to play the TCG, now has to put money into the TCG to get the advantages, and they have two ways to do this. They can either buy the loot card they want from another player directly for a high price, or purchase a booster pack for a chance to get the competitve loot cards. And this is the first time I've used the word 'Chance' in this thread in a gambling fashion too. While the World of Warcraft TCG's loot cards are also in booster packs and people take chances to get them, they are not the same as SWG's TCG. WoW's TCG's cards are still physical entities which you own and keep even if you don't get the loot card you want, and there is no desire to get the loot card other than bragging rights that give you no advantage, so competitive players who don't have the budget won't risk their money for an item that won't help them defeat the next biggest raid boss or defeat the PvPer with the best gear in the game. Not the same apparently in SWG's case, because there is no other alternative for getting the best, competitive gear in the game. And it is these competitive, low budget players that fall for SWG's TCG ploy. By offering an inexpensive, but low chance, method to instantly receive some of the best gear, unique stuff in the game that cannot be gotten anywhere else and offers a true competitive advantage, players will risk their luck to get the loot card for a cheap price instead of paying a larger sum to receive the exact card they want. And this is how someone's gambling addiction starts and continues. They will continually purchase booster packs until they get what they want or they run out of money. It's not their fault, it's a neurological problem from deceptive interfaces, deceptive numbers, and the gambler's fallacy. Worst of all, the regular cards received will be of zero use to the SWG player looking specifically for the competittve loot cards, and arn't even a physical entity to collect, give away, or even sell for the card's own value. This turns the Booster Packs into a lottery for SWG players, and since it's time paced(like state lotteries and even casinos), an addicted gambler will continue to purchase the packs in hopes of winning the lottery at stake with no gain in return, in this case hoping to win the gamechanging competitive loot cards. And with the deceptive numbers and interface used for the loot card's actual appearance, this can quickly turn an addicted gambler bankrupt. There is no limit to how many packs can be purchased, no posted odds of receiving a loot card in the booster packs, and nobody there to stop the gambler from continually purchasing booster packs. The gambler, in a state of mind where he thinks that he will win it in the next one, continues to buy and buy until bankrupt or receives the loot card in question. The odds of him receiving the card before spending more money than it's worth is very, very low, as SoE has posted no actual odds of how often the loot cards appear in booster packs. This means that SoE can fix the odds in their favor any way they like without telling the purchasers(Akin to how the House in a Casino can fix the odds to their favor over the player even more than normal, what is called rigging). With no posted odds, no purpose of these loot cards being in the TCG other than to draw in income from those using the TCG Booster Packs like a lottery(Not taking away from the income from the actual TCG players, but drawing in SWG players for their own income to be used not on the TCG, but only the loot card lottery), and no limits beyond the credit card limit, SoE is essentially running a gambling business, offering players a chance to receive a gamebreaking competitive advantage. This chance is offered only in exchange for money AFTER a $15 monthly fee is paid, which means that not only are they having to pay into the lottery to get a gamechanging competitive item, but they are also forced to pay a subscription to even be allowed to do this in the first place. If it was free to play, it wouldn't be a problem. SWG is not free to play, and therefore this changes the rules completely, and definitally qualifies this as a gambling ring. I'd go as far as saying it is extortion as well, for BOTH the TCG and SWG players, since one can't play at all and one cannot play competitively without utilizing the other. And like I said, the method being used by SOE's store for purchasing booster packs to receive a chance to get a loot card with no published odds and no limit is clearly in place to take advantage of gamblers. It does take advantage of gambling addiction(In a game where an addicted gambler may have turned to get away from gambling in the first place), and from the stories I've read, has taken advantage. This is not only unethical, but unlawful as well. The lottery-like gambling system they have with the loot cards was either crafted this way to entice gambling by accident, or was crafted to be this way from the beginning. And even if both ways were possibly true, they should have been stopped by the company's lawyers before the content was pushed live.
As a corporation dealing with online video gaming, and a large corporation at that, their lawyers should have been consulted or should have taken action to speak up against what exactly SoE is doing, and have drafted up the proper documents and clauses. Because of all the possibilities of being sued, their lawyers should have a hand somewhere in their production line in order to keep everything politically correct, unbiased, unhateful, equal opportunity, and that all content abides to the law without going overboard. From what I have read, SoE does not have documents and literature that would be considered valid for the operation that they are running. Even if they didn't intend the lottery to turn into gambling and consider it more of a promotion, they don't even have the proper documentation available to lay out the terms of it being a promotion. Therefore, this would be either a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about the law, a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about what they are doing does in fact require proper literature and information, a fault of the SoE employees that designed, drafted, and marketed the TCG and the Loot Cards, or a combination of these faults. Or even worse, they took no precaution with their service and launched it without bothering to look into the laws or what could possibly go wrong or draw court action, which is a bad move for any large corporation, especially when dealing with money on a global scale(regardless of how much money is in question).
In conclusion, the SWG TCG is definitally being operated as an illegal gambling operation in my eyes, is definitally breaking the law, and definitally should be brought to justice and pay for damages to those who have suffered losses from their gambling addiction taking over, especially in a video game that isn't supposed to have real money gambling for competitive items in the first place since this sort of gambling is illegal in a pay to play game.
If any of my information would be helpful to those seeking to bring this to the attention of the gambling authorities of the US and Canada, feel free to use this. I don't want to have typed this for nothing, and will also look into the matters myself. The best way to bring notification to a problem is if multiple sources bring it up to the governments. SOE should not go unregulated like this, and I praise those who are also actively seeking to bring regulation and justice to SOE, as this is definitally a broken law, and anyone who breaks a law, especially with gambling and minors in play, should pay the fine.
Be warned, this is going to be a TL:DR post for those who arn't discussing this seriously.
I read the whole thread. This was very interesting. Allow me to give my neutral point of view.
I don't play SWG. I have never played SWG. I never intended back then, now, or in the future to play SWG, regardless of how great the game is or is not, because I am not interested in playing a Star Wars-based MMORPG, and therefore I fall out of the game's target audiance. However, I do not hold any hate, disgust, or prejudice against the game. I enjoy the Star Wars Intellectual Property, and I enjoy MMORPGs. I do not want to play a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion not because the game isn't meeting any standards that I would want, but because I am just simply not interested in playing a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion. I will not be purchasing SW:TOR either due to my disinterest, and even though I am disinterested, I hold no biase towards the game because I have not played the game, and thus it would be foolish for me to make any opinionated remarks on a game that I have never played and don't have any interest to play either. So please, consider my thoughts on the subject, as my thoughts are from a true neutral point of view about the topic at hand, and not because a previous biase was or is lingering to taint my opinion. I hold no like or dislike for SWG, and I hold no like or dislike for SoE. Now for the topic at hand...
From what I have read in this thread, and at other sources through educated research, SoE is definitally breaching a law. The TCG's game-enhancing Loot Cards do have a market value, and a very strong one at that, using the $300 worth of some Loot Cards at auction sites as an example. Futhermore, the TCG isn't a true TCG either. There are no physical, tangable cards in your ownership. There is no true ability to freely trade since your subscritpion's 'free' booster packs are not tradable. And there is no security in ownership of any of these since SoE, from their own EULA, state that the cards are their digital property, to be modified or deleted at their discretion. Furthermore, you can't even play the TCG unless you purchase a SWG subscription. If one wanted to trade their excess cards to a friend(who does not wish to pay money into the TCG but is interested) to allow them to play the TCG, the person would be unable to do this, because not only are some cards untradable, but the game REQUIRES a subscription to be played, therefore it would force his friend to subscribe if he ever wished to play the TCG, and not only would he have to subscribe, but he would need an internet connection to even view the cards and play the game. If we compare SWG's TCG to other games, you will see big, glaring differences. Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering are popular TCGs that we can start with. Yes, the cards have a monetary value, but the value is for the card itself to be used with the card game in question, or because the card is rare due to a misprint, a change in artwork on future cards, or even a balance change that banned the card or changed the card's abilities in newer versions of the game, but still allowed the older version of the card to be used in playing the game properly, officially and fairly. If one were to lose interest and stop playing M:TG or Pokemon, they can archive their cards away, sell their cards, or give them away, or even trash them if truly desired. However, they still own the card because they have the card. It is physical, it can be touched, and it is a product of the game that was purchased or obtained by the owner in some way, shape or form. Outside of losing the card through misplacement, a debacle of the owner's fault, or theft, the card is, and will always be, under their ownership and belong to the person who owns it, and this cannot be revoked, even if the person never purchases anymore cards of the game. Even if the game stops being produced, the cards remain to be traded, collected, or even played with for as long as the cards can physically exist in the ownership of those that bought the cards. This factor also makes card collecting an indirect investment, as it is this reason that many other card-type entities(Such as baseball cards) have high value and high collectability.
Now lets look at some other TCGs with more differences than our traditional TCGs, such as the World of Warcraft TCG and even Magic: The Gathering Online. Lets start with the WoW TCG first. The WoW TCG is also legitimate, even though there are game altering items, similar to the case in the SWG TCG case. However, the WoW TCG does things differently that legitimizes it. Firstly, you do not have to have a World of Warcraft subscription, or have ever subscribed in the first place, to be allowed to play the WoW TCG. You don't even have to purchase cards to be allowed to play, as you could simply be given cards from someone else, and now have enough cards to participate in the game that the cards are meant for. Booster Packs and the like are available for purchases for those who want cards for the TCG, and of course, these cards vary in rarity and thus it is a change the purchaser takes. However, whatever the cards are that he gets from the booster pack, the cards are, and always will be except for theft and mishaps as outlined before, under his ownership. The cards are physical, solid entities that are tangible, and thus are true property, so it mimics the properties of other card games like Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering perfectly... except for the loot cards. The loot cards in WoW's TCG link it in similarity to SWG's TCG, but there are a few BIG exceptions. First off, loot cards you get in WoW's TCG do NOT require you to be subscribing to the actual World of Warcraft MMORPG, nor do you actually have to ever have played the MMORPG game or be playing the MMORPG game to receive a loot card. Second, unlike SWG's TCG, with the WoW TCG's loot cards, you are receiving a physical, tangible entity(the loot card) if you get one in the packs, or if someone gives you it. You truly 'own' the loot card, because it is a physical entity, and is NOT a digital entity, such as SWG's TCG. If the WoW TCG ever stopped production, or World of Warcraft stopped maintaining servers, you still own the physical entity that is the loot card, and thus it can still be considered an investment in collectability and tradability, and the loot card can hold monetary value for desire of the physical entity in your posession by any avid collectors. The same is not the case for SWG's TCG, as there is no physical entity, trade is restricted to some of your cards, you cannot collect any cards of the SWG TCG unless you actually play the game, and when the SWG service ends, the TCG will most likely end with it since it is linked to the SWG subscription, and thus all your digital cards will vanish since you never had physical ownership of it to begin with. Thirdly, the loot cards in WoW's TCG do NOT give players of the MMORPG an advantage if they manage to get them. The items obtained by the TCG Loot Cards for use in the MMORPG are either cosmetic or offer the player to receive the in game loot something that has no effect on the core gameplay of World of Warcraft. The loot card's actual item received in World of Warcraft is moreso for 'bragging rights' than for 'a competitive advantage', which is, as far as I know, NOT the case with the SWG TCG's loot cards. Fourthly, the loot cards you receive in the WoW TCG function as actual cards as well, cards that can be used in the TCG and thus still retains a purpose to those who do not play the World of Warcraft MMORPG. The loot cards in SWG's TCG, as far as I know, do NOT have any purpose other than to give the person a SWG item. The loot card cannot by itself be used in the TCG, and thus for the people who play only the TCG and not SWG, would be worthless to the person purchasing the pack, and thus be disadvantageous to the player to actually receive one, because getting a loot card instead of other cards in the TCG means that the 10 card booster pack you bought for cards to use in the TCG was actually 9 cards(or even less) and a useless-to-you loot card, and thus you would feel a notion of being ripped off, receiving only 9 or less actual usable cards, and a useless-to-you loot card that can't be used to enhance the TCG experience because it has no use within the TCG itself. Yes, you may be able to trade and sell the loot card to other people and receive money and/or cards back from any transaction you took with that loot card, but once again, these are trades, actions and prices that arise only because a non-usable card in the TCG was inserted into the booster packs of cards intended to be used in the TCG. In essence, these cards force TCG players to interact with SWG players in non-TCG ways if they wish to make their purchased loot card, a product of monetary investment in a TCG, useful for not only the purchase of the card, but also to make up for receiving only 9 cards instead of 10 out of a booster pack(or worse). This is not the case in WoW's TCG, as the cards have an actual use in the TCG as a card, and thus never forces a person who does not play the MMORPG to have to interact with anyone of the MMORPG to put their card, their investment of money, to usage. Then we have the case of Magic: The Gathering Online. Like SWG's TCG, M:TGO uses digital cards that are purchased for money, and payment to use their services is required. Some cards are even unique to MTGO that are not available to MTG players. However, unlike SWG'S TCG, collecting these digital cards does have an ultimate purpose for the player, especially since MTGO and MTG are the exact same game(One is digital, one is physical, but both play exactly the same). If a player collects an entire series of cards(either by buying packs, trading individual cards for other cards, for currency, or as a gift, or winning them through skillful play), they are able to trade them in and actually receive in the mail every single card of the set they had collected. They have the ability to turn their digitally owned cards(Which are owned by the player, NOT the company when they are purchased, even in their digital form) into solid, physical entities, real cards, that can be used in the Magic: The Gathering TCG, and thus enjoy the same qualities of life as a regular purchase of Magic: The Gathering cards. M:TGO allows you to turn your digital property into physical property(If you collect the series of cards, that is). Through this method, there even exists cards for the offline, physical TCG that are only obtainable through the online, digital TCG, but they are not gamebreaking or gamechanging enough to warrant direct want of them from true players, though collectors will find them worth quite a bit. In essence, while MTGO has something available from it that benefits the offline game that can't be gotten elsewhere, these is no demand for these cards because they are not necessary in the least bit to be competitive, unlike the SWG TCG loot cards having loot that changed the competitiveness of the SWG game. And also, SWG's TCG cannot have its cards turned into physical entities under any condition, unlike MTGO, therefore once again ruining any 'investment' the player makes into the cards for worth after the game stops production and/or ceases to exist, as these cards do not and will never exist physically.
As you can see, compared to the other TCGs out there, SWG's TCG has so many faults with it, that even people playing it for the TCG itself are being scammed, as you are required to pay into a different game to play it, you are unable to trade your cards received from said subscription, you are unable to physically hold or touch your cards as they do not and will not ever exist in a physical form, and when the SWG game's service ends(face it, a game has to end its service someday), the cards are gone for good, never to be seen again. And even if they never end service, you must pay a subscription fee, the fee being equivalent to what you would pay for a AAA MMORPG, to even have access to your cards. Forfeit the subscription and you forfeit your right to play the TCG with cards you 'own'. Therefore, where is the incentive to play and purchase the SWG TCG? TCGs exist, survive and leave a legacy based on the incentive to have people purchase the cards in the first place. In Magic the Gathering's case, we can see multiple incentives to purchase the cards, such as for playing the TCG, for getting better cards for your deck for the TCG, for making multiple decks without borrowing from other decks, for outright collecting for prospective income from selling to another collector or player, or to just collect simply to be a collector of Magic: The Gathering cards. Some people even buy Magic: The Gathering cards simply for the beautiful artwork on the card. These incentives are what put a price on the cards themselves, the booster packs, and the future of the game. Useful cards to players will always net a high price because they will be low in circulation for collectors to collect, and/or low in circulation for players to play with. Thus collectors will post high price offers to collect and archive the card, and players will post high price offers to purchase the card in order to utilize it in their deck. The same can be said for Pokemon's TCG, Magic the Gathering's Online TCG, and even World of Warcraft's TCG. The same cannot be said for SWG's TCG. Why is SWG not like the other TCGs above? Because unlike them, the cards are not real(and will never be real) and hold no value for collectors to invest in. The game itself also cannot be played or shared to play with other people easily as it is purely digital AND linked to a subscription based online game which you MUST purchase the subscription of in order to play, and MUST be online to play. The game also has untradable cards that remain untradable if you received them from the 'free' booster packs, thus destroying the point of the 'trading' in the Trading Card Game acronym. The cards can be changed for balance reasons at the will of the publisher, reducing their collectability. And you can receive cards, loot cards, useless to the TCG as they do not have any positive effect on the TCG and cannot be used in a deck for the TCG. Their only use loot cards have for a TCG player, as far as I can see, is removing a potential card from the player's booster packs. And the worst part is, the actual playing cards from the TCG have no real currency value, as traders barter with cards or in-game currency to trade the playing cards and NOT real money. On the other hand, the loot cards, cards that are useless to the TCG player, not only do they hold a monetary value in the real world, but some hold a SIGNIFICANT value. And while you can say this is a great boon for the TCG player since they can sell the card and make actual profit from selling the card, there does exist a problem, and the problem does not lie with the selling of the loot card(Even WoW loot cards are sold every now and then). The problem lies in the target audiance of the loot card, the SWG players. These loot cards of the SWG TCG benefit ONLY the SWG player, and hold no benefit and no reason to collect for the TCG player. These loot cards apparently have siginificant, game changing advantages over what is obtained in the actual game. History in gaming shows that players want to remain competitive, and will do what it takes to remain there. PC game players that don't play MMORPGS, but other games like Counter Strike, Crysis, Call of Duty, Starcraft, and other competitive games will buy expensive computers, heavy duty high quality ISP service, expensive peripherals, comfortable clothing, high quality chairs, desks, and all other things all to achieve the perfect ambiance and perfect setting to play their game at the top competitive level and to remove hinderances getting in their way. And even if players are not top quality tournament level, they will still want to play a game well, and will typically purchase a computer that can run it, broadband internet, and a decent monitor, mouse and keyboard, and mabye other things. And even if they don't purchase all these things, the players can still play just fine on a crappy computer with crappy equipment, but on a technical scale, they are at no true disadvantage over other players because they have the same access to the same game, and player skill and tactics will still be in the majority of how things are settled. Those who are competitive enough, however, will purchase and upgrade to play and perform better in order to stay at the top of the competition. The same holds true in MMORPGs. Players will do boring, time consuming and repetitive leveling processes, quests, raids, crafting, and other things in order to be competitive and at the top. In free to play games, like MapleStory(Most successful Free to play MMORPG available), players purchase things that assist them in leveling faster, hitting harder, or moving around the globe of the game quicker, or just to not have to worry about using potions and whatnot, because it makes the player able to play at a higher performance rating than they were able to before, and thus people will upgrade as their budget allows to become better, or in games with no shops like World of Warcraft, will invest as much time as possible to get the best equipment in the game to be competitive. These loot cards offer game changing advantages that are not easily available to players that don't buy TCG cards. While that would be dandy and fine, the major problems are that players are already paying a AAA fee to play SWG, and there doesn't exist in-game non-TCG equivalents to what is available. So SWG players will buy into the TCG, hoping to receive a loot card, or they'll pay an extreme amount of real-life currency to purchase said loot card. This, however, indirectly preys on a major psychological problem: Gambling Addiction. A SWG player who wants to remain competitive, but has no desire to play the TCG, now has to put money into the TCG to get the advantages, and they have two ways to do this. They can either buy the loot card they want from another player directly for a high price, or purchase a booster pack for a chance to get the competitve loot cards. And this is the first time I've used the word 'Chance' in this thread in a gambling fashion too. While the World of Warcraft TCG's loot cards are also in booster packs and people take chances to get them, they are not the same as SWG's TCG. WoW's TCG's cards are still physical entities which you own and keep even if you don't get the loot card you want, and there is no desire to get the loot card other than bragging rights that give you no advantage, so competitive players who don't have the budget won't risk their money for an item that won't help them defeat the next biggest raid boss or defeat the PvPer with the best gear in the game. Not the same apparently in SWG's case, because there is no other alternative for getting the best, competitive gear in the game. And it is these competitive, low budget players that fall for SWG's TCG ploy. By offering an inexpensive, but low chance, method to instantly receive some of the best gear, unique stuff in the game that cannot be gotten anywhere else and offers a true competitive advantage, players will risk their luck to get the loot card for a cheap price instead of paying a larger sum to receive the exact card they want. And this is how someone's gambling addiction starts and continues. They will continually purchase booster packs until they get what they want or they run out of money. It's not their fault, it's a neurological problem from deceptive interfaces, deceptive numbers, and the gambler's fallacy. Worst of all, the regular cards received will be of zero use to the SWG player looking specifically for the competittve loot cards, and arn't even a physical entity to collect, give away, or even sell for the card's own value. This turns the Booster Packs into a lottery for SWG players, and since it's time paced(like state lotteries and even casinos), an addicted gambler will continue to purchase the packs in hopes of winning the lottery at stake with no gain in return, in this case hoping to win the gamechanging competitive loot cards. And with the deceptive numbers and interface used for the loot card's actual appearance, this can quickly turn an addicted gambler bankrupt. There is no limit to how many packs can be purchased, no posted odds of receiving a loot card in the booster packs, and nobody there to stop the gambler from continually purchasing booster packs. The gambler, in a state of mind where he thinks that he will win it in the next one, continues to buy and buy until bankrupt or receives the loot card in question. The odds of him receiving the card before spending more money than it's worth is very, very low, as SoE has posted no actual odds of how often the loot cards appear in booster packs. This means that SoE can fix the odds in their favor any way they like without telling the purchasers(Akin to how the House in a Casino can fix the odds to their favor over the player even more than normal, what is called rigging). With no posted odds, no purpose of these loot cards being in the TCG other than to draw in income from those using the TCG Booster Packs like a lottery(Not taking away from the income from the actual TCG players, but drawing in SWG players for their own income to be used not on the TCG, but only the loot card lottery), and no limits beyond the credit card limit, SoE is essentially running a gambling business, offering players a chance to receive a gamebreaking competitive advantage. This chance is offered only in exchange for money AFTER a $15 monthly fee is paid, which means that not only are they having to pay into the lottery to get a gamechanging competitive item, but they are also forced to pay a subscription to even be allowed to do this in the first place. If it was free to play, it wouldn't be a problem. SWG is not free to play, and therefore this changes the rules completely, and definitally qualifies this as a gambling ring. I'd go as far as saying it is extortion as well, for BOTH the TCG and SWG players, since one can't play at all and one cannot play competitively without utilizing the other. And like I said, the method being used by SOE's store for purchasing booster packs to receive a chance to get a loot card with no published odds and no limit is clearly in place to take advantage of gamblers. It does take advantage of gambling addiction(In a game where an addicted gambler may have turned to get away from gambling in the first place), and from the stories I've read, has taken advantage. This is not only unethical, but unlawful as well. The lottery-like gambling system they have with the loot cards was either crafted this way to entice gambling by accident, or was crafted to be this way from the beginning. And even if both ways were possibly true, they should have been stopped by the company's lawyers before the content was pushed live. As a corporation dealing with online video gaming, and a large corporation at that, their lawyers should have been consulted or should have taken action to speak up against what exactly SoE is doing, and have drafted up the proper documents and clauses. Because of all the possibilities of being sued, their lawyers should have a hand somewhere in their production line in order to keep everything politically correct, unbiased, unhateful, equal opportunity, and that all content abides to the law without going overboard. From what I have read, SoE does not have documents and literature that would be considered valid for the operation that they are running. Even if they didn't intend the lottery to turn into gambling and consider it more of a promotion, they don't even have the proper documentation available to lay out the terms of it being a promotion. Therefore, this would be either a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about the law, a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about what they are doing does in fact require proper literature and information, a fault of the SoE employees that designed, drafted, and marketed the TCG and the Loot Cards, or a combination of these faults. Or even worse, they took no precaution with their service and launched it without bothering to look into the laws or what could possibly go wrong or draw court action, which is a bad move for any large corporation, especially when dealing with money on a global scale(regardless of how much money is in question).
In conclusion, the SWG TCG is definitally being operated as an illegal gambling operation in my eyes, is definitally breaking the law, and definitally should be brought to justice and pay for damages to those who have suffered losses from their gambling addiction taking over, especially in a video game that isn't supposed to have real money gambling for competitive items in the first place since this sort of gambling is illegal in a pay to play game. If any of my information would be helpful to those seeking to bring this to the attention of the gambling authorities of the US and Canada, feel free to use this. I don't want to have typed this for nothing, and will also look into the matters myself. The best way to bring notification to a problem is if multiple sources bring it up to the governments. SOE should not go unregulated like this, and I praise those who are also actively seeking to bring regulation and justice to SOE, as this is definitally a broken law, and anyone who breaks a law, especially with gambling and minors in play, should pay the fine.
I wish you all luck on your endeavors, Darxio
Thanks much for sharing your thoughts and a ton of relevant information.
Comments
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
I see what you're saying...big difference between chemical enhancement of an already addictive substance to increase consumption/cha-ching and what SOE is doing with TCG. Don't get me wrong..I don't agree with what they are doing but if someone can pump money for pack after pack and still be unaffected financially...so be it. If it causes stress and monetary woe then...the buyer needs to seriously reconsider the need for "the fastest speeder bike ever" or an animal farm.
I understand its an addiction. I smoked for 20 years. Never seemed to affect my health..(although I know better...and realize cigarettes are not good for you)...when it did start to contribute to high blood pressure and other health issues...I quit cold turkey...been 7 months without...feel much better and no desire to smoke at all. (I still need to lose some poundage but thats another story)..I don't see how quitting an apparent TCG addiction should be any harder
...As for TCG regulation..well according to several posts from someone...I think it's Sharkypal and another I can't remember..the ball is seemingly "on the roll" for a resolution on the exact nature of the TCG..SWG will probably be down to 3 players or shut down altogether by then....or maybe rolling in the multi millions from the desire of so many for UBERLOOT cards....
Oh well, people are probably tired of my comments on this...so I officially retire from the SWG/TCG threads..and await the final verdict (if I even remember the topic by that time).
And what about the enablers?
I don't buy the whole "enabler" mentality. Sure there are bad people out there who will do anything for some advantage....and who encourage a certain behavior in another...for whatever reason. To Me though...using "enabler" is just another way to place blame regarding a certain issue. A fluffy..feel good.."it's not my fault" crutch that keeps people from focusing on the fact that they have a f@cking problem and need to address it promptly..Grow some figurative "balls" and take reponsibility for Crikes sake. I have some pounds to lose...you won't find me sueing OUTBACK b/c their steaks are so pretty in the picture..affordable and tasty. I blame no one but myself and I will either take control..man up...and do something about it ...or die of a stroke/heart attack/(insert your favorite Obesity related disease here)
Yeah, blaming people and saying they are "enablers" is what i was trying to say about not taking accountability for what you do. There are tons of temptations in this world, if you go for every one of them you're in big trouble.
Remember the big cigarette scandal a few years back? In case you don't, here was the jist of it. Cigarette manufacturers were attempting to hide the fact that nicotine is addictive. That sounds silly to all of us now, but they really tried to do it, and for a short time they had some success.
They also added things to cigarettes to increase the addictive nature of the nicotine present. The intent was very simply to get people hooked, outside of their awareness, and rake in the dollars. Health concerns, social concerns etc. were completely irrelevant.
The loot items embedded in the TCG follow a similar pattern of corporate behaviour. They attempt, it appears, to get people hooked into an addictive pattern of behaviour outside of their awareness. That's the similarity I'm highlighting btw, nothing else.
The random loot items are a positive, intermitent reinforcement strategy that by design reinforces desirable behaviour. In this case the behaviour being rewarded (or shaped as we say in my field) is spending money on TCG card packs.
Laws and regulations around games of chance (online or otherwise) are designed to prevent companies from doing this to people outside their awareness. People must be aware of the dynamic, up front. They must be adults. They must be aware of their odds of winning, or losing, and these odds need to be independently verified. It seems that SOE's loot item mechanic attempts to circumvent all of these consumer safeguards. I expect that when this is thoroughly investigated, there will be some official action. It may take time, but history suggests that corporate strategies like what this appears to be are inevitably exposed.
I see what you're saying...big difference between chemical enhancement of an already addictive substance to increase consumption/cha-ching and what SOE is doing with TCG. Don't get me wrong..I don't agree with what they are doing but if someone can pump money for pack after pack and still be unaffected financially...so be it. If it causes stress and monetary woe then...the buyer needs to seriously reconsider the need for "the fastest speeder bike ever" or an animal farm.
I understand its an addiction. I smoked for 20 years. Never seemed to affect my health..(although I know better...and realize cigarettes are not good for you)...when it did start to contribute to high blood pressure and other health issues...I quit cold turkey...been 7 months without...feel much better and no desire to smoke at all. (I still need to lose some poundage but thats another story)..I don't see how quitting an apparent TCG addiction should be any harder
...As for TCG regulation..well according to several posts from someone...I think it's Sharkypal and another I can't remember..the ball is seemingly "on the roll" for a resolution on the exact nature of the TCG..SWG will probably be down to 3 players or shut down altogether by then....or maybe rolling in the multi millions from the desire of so many for UBERLOOT cards....
Oh well, people are probably tired of my comments on this...so I officially retire from the SWG/TCG threads..and await the final verdict (if I even remember the topic by that time).
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
Wow.... 23 pages of ppl complaining if this is gambling or not...
Well here is the answer everyone, so DEAL WITH IT.
Each game you buy is a gamble... lots of games you get has the BASIC too play. then IF you want more you either have too PAY too get the expansions... PAY too get items or PAY too play longer or even PAY too play online. whatever it is..... each company has there BASIC... (SWG is BASIC) and each company that makes games last longer or adds new excitements have EXTRAS.... which obviously you have too PAY... like for example... SWG has Loot Cards... if you want somthing new and exciting.. you have too PAY too get it... Some will pay more then others but you sitll have too PAY... Is that gambling? only if your trying too get one specific item and you keep buying and buying and buying too try too get it... but wait... thats not Gambling... thats Chance... you pay for something you WANT. So you can be happy and just play the game as IS.... or you can take a CHANCE and buy loot cards after loot cards too get what you WANT... thats not gambling thats just economy. Most ppl learn about the Economy in grade 5... but alot of MMORPG players havent reached Grade 5 yet so obviously you would get ppl like in here writing threads like is this gambling or not lol... Hmmm but that would mean im part of this under grade 5 group... Ah no i am not... because maybe i type like a grade 5er lol but i know that this isnt gambling this is economy
Dang, sounds like a genius idea. Taking advantage of all the stupid people who don't know how to conserve their money, especially in a time of recession in the United States (not that all people affected by this Oh Noez TCG stuff are in the US of course) is absolutely genius.
Luckily World of Warcraft's implementations of absolutely pointless things like changing your character look/sex changes and security keys (HAHAHA) don't actually give you anything advantageous in the game really. New looks but that's about it, whereas the SWG:TCG is offering in game items that the remaining, dwindled population is obviously going balls to the wall crazy over because they were crazy enough to stick with a game that was the pinnacle of open-end sandboxing years ago. Have faith in yourself, not in a game that is controlled by a company who is laughing at you when it comes to a large amount of money like that.
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
ok...lol...one last reply..nothing much. I agree about addiction and believe physical and psychological addictions are undeniably linked. One of the oldest axioms from the Emerald Tablets...which equates to "As Above so below...and as below so above"..just as changes in local economy affect the national economy and the other way around......changes in the mind reflect changes in the body and vice versa...I understand now what you were saying in the way SOE handles the TCG...I see your point. Still not fully convinced it can be classified as "gambling"... mostly due to the devious(clever?) way in which SOE instituted the TCG as it intertwines with SWG and vice versa. ..That is all.
Well, there is a difference (on one level) between a physical and a psychological addiction. In the most general terms gambling is a psychological addiction, whereas nicotine is a physical addiction. (Keep reading if you like btw to see the physical component to psychological addiction. The difference between these two processes is not as great as many people think). The main idea I was focusing on here was the attempt to hide the addictive process. The cigarette companies said, "nothing addictive going on here," and this sounds similar to SOE's position that, "there's no gambling going on here."
More now on addiction: if you understand "psychological" addiction, there is a physical component to it. Activities target reward centers in the brain that cause an increased production in certain pleasure enhancing neurotransmitters. This is why people can get addicted to mood altering experiences (e.g. gambling, sex) as well as mood altering chemicals (e.g. drugs).
Also, some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others. There are biological and sociological factors that predispose some to be more susceptible to mood altering reinforcers. Many of these factors exist outside of the control and awareness of the affected persons. Choice is of course an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor involved in addiction.
Again, the idea is that if you know what you're getting into, and it's properly regulated/monitored, people can enjoy themselves and the risk of addiction and exploitation are minimized.
The concern, as I see it, is that the gambling dynamic is being denied, and the game of chance is being embedded in a seemingly innocuous vehicle. From a behavioural science perspective, this is very naughty.
ok...lol...one last reply..nothing much. I agree about addiction and believe physical and psychological addictions are undeniably linked. One of the oldest axioms from the Green Tablets...which equates to "As Above so below...and as below so above"..just as changes in local economy affect the national economy and the other way around......changes in the mind reflect changes in the body and vice versa...I understand now what you were saying in the way SOE handles the TCG...I see your point. Still not fully convinced it can be classified as "gambling"... mostly due to the devious(clever?) way in which SOE instituted the TCG as it intertwines with SWG and vice versa. ..That is all.
Thanks for the chat. I've really enjoyed dialoguing with you about this
. See you on another thread some time.
It's possible you missed this piece of information on page 11: Here's a definition of internet gambling from the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act (2006): "the purchase of a chance to win a lottery or other prize the award of which is predominantly subject to chance." As you say, people are purchasing TCG card packs for the chance of winning a loot item for SWG. What you don't seem to realize is that this does in fact appear to fit the definition of internet gambling to the letter.
If you like, there are posts that contrast the loot item gamble to things like baseball cards and product promotions as well. There are a lot of different perspectives on this issue, and many are very well thought out. Reading through the thread could be enlightening.
Obviously people feel very strongly about this for there to be so many pages of posts. When this is the case, there's probably a notable reason for it.
People are still asking how the loot items embedded in the TCG differ from things like McDonald's monopoly game. I went to the McDonald's site for the rules of their game. This should shed some light:
"MONOPOLY® 2008 Game at McDonald's®
OFFICIAL RULES
NO PURCHASE IS NECESSARY TO PARTICIPATE. PURCHASE WILL NOT IMPROVE YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. "
With SOE, money must change hands in order for you to get a chance at loot items (even via the monthly subscription), and people are trying to increase their chance of winning by spending more money on additional card packs. That seems very different to me.
Baseball cards require you to buy them for a chance at a rookie or all star card
Magic and Blizzard do not guarantee the card you want either
SOE TCG still provide you with cards, you just have a chance to get a in game loot card, just like the above.
You do NOT have to spend money to get a pack of cards, you get a 5 pack booster set every month for FREE
Blizzard charges 15 bucks for a character makeover which almost every other mmorpg does for free
hmm...here I thought SWG players had to pay $15 a month to get the 5 monthly boosters.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Oh hey there Miagi, didn't know you were online
. If SWG was free to play, it would be more similar to the McDonald's promotional. It's not, however, so the "free" cards aren't actually free. Customers receive them as part of their monthly subscription fee. Now even subscribing has a chance reward attached to it as an intermittent reinforcer. Some people, in fact, are trying to "beat the system" by avoiding the purchase of additional card packs. How are thy doing this? By subscribing month after month in the hope of getting a random loot item in their monthly packs.
There are some obvious problems with this. First, the odds of receiving a desired item via the subscription method are not publicly verified. People can sub for years (theoretically) in the hope of getting a podracer that they may never get. Worse than that, since the odds of winning can be manipulated in SOE's favour, by them, at any time, outside of the player's awareness, people may be waiting for certain loot to drop in vain. The longer they wait, the more likely they are to try to increase their chances of winning by purchasing additional card packs. However, even the odds of winning by this method are not independently verified.
Simply put: "no purchase necessary" does not apply to the loot card gamble. You either pay your subscription and hope you get lucky via the long road, or you try to shorten your journey by buying additional card packs. SWG is not "free to play," so players receive zero card packs for "free."
The reason I'm highlighting this aspect of the situation is that the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act specifies that random rewards are just fine in free to play games.
Also, regarding the baseball cards. People paying for baseball cards are hoping to get just that, baseball cards. In the TCG, the loot items are not part of the card game at all. They have no function in the card game. They are rewards that enhance another online entertainment service. Rewards that people are gambling real money to get. Rewards that are becoming increasingly more necessary in a game that these people already pay a subscription fee for.
If you like SWG, or even SOE for that matter, I see that as your perogative. I can respect your preferences, even if mine differ. Can you see the differrence between the McDonald's promotional and the TCG loot though? Do you see how this also seems to differ from buying baseball cards? For that matter I'm sure there are rare trading cards in the TCG that people are hoping to get. That's fine by me. People buying trading cards are getting trading cards, rare or common. The loot items, however, are simply not part of this game. I'd prefer people buying cards to actually own them, but that's another issue entirely.
actual the cards in game (if i remember correctly) are like the legends of Norrath game. You can compete and play against other people. So no different than purchasing say a Magic the Gathering card game. You collect these cards, then "battle" if you will, against others online. Only difference is that you are paying for virtual property rather than physical. I could be wrong, it has been a very long time since i checked out the card game in SWG, but you can do this in EQ2 under the Legends of Norrath card game. I have never bought a booster pack, but i do get some free from time to time, even loot them in game or trade them with others.
This is a very important point Miagisan. This is a key misunderstanding. The loot cards do not have a function in the TCG. They are separate from, but embedded in, the card game. The loot items are not used in any part of TCG gameplay. You do not use them to battle against others in the card game. They are only valuable as advantages to SWG gameplay (e.g. fastest vehicle in the game, combat buffs).
If they were simply rare cards for the card game itself, this wouldn't be an issue at all.
You are right that other card games also have printed cards that you own (even WoW). This is another concern people have about the virtual loot items. After you pay x amount of dollars and finally win one (if you're lucky) SOE can still nerf it, delete it, or render it obsolete. Also, the printed card games have publicly verified odds of getting something rare. This is not so with the TCG loot items. You never know if that deck is stacked against you.
I have nothing at all against your average trading card game. I play two of them actually, and they're a lot of fun. SOE could have structured their TCG like all these other games. My issue is that they haven't done that, and that all the ways their TCG is unique seem to put consumers at a disadvantage.
Would it be nice to know your odds of winning, and have these verified? Absolutely. Other card games do this. Would it be nice to actually own a printed card that you could trade with others? Yes, it probably would. Would it be better if SOE left the loot items out of the TCG, to avoid having people gamble for them, and instead just included the loot in SWG as a content update? Yes, why not?
Wouldn't it be nice to do a new instance, for example, and get a random loot drop of a pod-racer? I'm sure it would. Even better, wouldn't it be nice to get a random drop of a schematic for a pod-racer to add to the crafting game as well as introduce new vehicles for all? Yeah, why not?
Unfortunately, none of these "nice" things appear to be true of these loot items. Also, the cards you receive as part of your monthly subscription are "no trade." This diminishes their value. To get the best loot items, and be able to trade them ingame, the only way is to gamble for them (literally) by purchasing TCG card packs. People have been doing this to the tune of a few hundreds dollars, and often losing.
Yes, you can question their judgment, but I also think it's fair to question the way the game it set up. It reminds me of a crooked shell game, and people running those ran afoul of the law.
to each his own i guess
me personally, i don't find it terribly news worthy, i think the fact that another game is charging 15 bucks to change the appearance of your character is more of a scam than this
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
Yes, again you make the point that distinguishes SOE's usual nefarious behaviour from that of it's competition. Unfortunately, these defining points seem to be lost on many of the people who post here.
S
Heh, the thought of having to pay to change my costume in CoH would make me shudder. I'm always in the tailor shop lol. So I can understand you on this point.
Imagine though, if you will, having to pay 15 bucks for only a random chance to change the appearance of your character. This is the idea that has people all in a twist about these loot items. Worse though, the rewards people are gambling for are more than cosmetic. They affect your gameplay: gameplay that they are already paying a subscription fee for.
Yes, again you make the point that distinguishes SOE's usual nefarious behaviour from that of it's competition. Unfortunately, these defining points seem to be lost on many of the people who post here.
S
Well, some people might accuse me of bias, but I do try to just call it as I see it. I'd like to compare some of my comments now, with some that I made a few years back. Before anyone pro-SOE gets defensive, let me say that I want to highlight player feedback, and two things I think SOE did right in response to it.
The backstory is this: SOE and LEC had just had a marketting campaign about their Trials of ObiWan expansion. One of the main selling points was new creatures to tame, and special loot for creature handlers. Of course, as a result of this, many creature handlers purchased the expansion.
The day after the expansion went live, LEC/SOE announced the deletion of the creature handler profession, effective in 13 days time.
Players, myself included, cried foul. It was very clear that this information should not have been withheld, and that many players purchased the expansion under false pretenses.
Now, here's what SOE did right. They admitted that they did not communicate with players as they should have. (There's plenty more they did wrong about this, but this admission was one positive step). They then refunded the money that people paid for the expansion. This was a massive refund campaign, and it was the right thing to do.
Now, many people were highly disparaging of players who cried foul. They said we were off our nut, that we should grow up and get a life, and stop complaining about a videogame etc.. This loot card deal is not that different in the way it's playing out.
Again, something's happening that has people feeling scammed, and players are crying foul. My hope is that once again, SOE will listen and find a way to compensate those who have been negatively impacted.
I'm aware that players contacted attorney generals etc. regarding the expansion. I don't know if this directly led to the refunds or not. Players are crying foul again, and authorities are being consulted again. I hope that once again players will be reimbursed for their losses.
Personally, I don't think gambling for SWG loot items should be part of the TCG. The TCG itself seems like something people could enjoy; but the SWG loot items, in my view, should be made available via SWG gameplay, not a game of chance involving real dollars.
The SOE community rep said in a recent post that the loot items will not be made available via SWG gameplay because it would be unfair to those who gambled for the loot and won. She worded it differently of course (didn't use the "g" word). If they were compensated for all the money they spent trying to get those loot items, however, it wouldn't seem so unfair, would it?
Well, let me address those who are comparing this to CCGs and Baseball cards and hopefully enlighten the difference.
Back in the beginning of CCG, there was an ante mechanic. That went away rather quickly from both games I collected (Magic and Vampire) because it WAS gambling.
Now to things today.
The baseball card parallel would be accurate for the following.
There are two seperate set of cards. One is a collection one, one is a TCG. Now, they set up the TCG so that in order to get the most powerful cards in the game, you have to buy and collect the regular trading cards, they do not give you the odds of actually getting one of the cards for the TCG in the regular trading cards. But in order to be competitive in the TCG, you have to get the TCG cards from the regular trading card series.
Buying trading cards, is random chance yes, but getting one card is no different than another because the chance of each card is the same. If it isn't, they tell you the proportions between common, uncommon, rare etc.
In the SWG example, we have to go further....
The card maker allows you to "win items" randomly distributed in "FREE" packs. But, the "FREE" ones you get, you only get if you pay a monthly fee to play in the tournament league and those cards are marked as non-tradable, registered and controlled, where you only have access to them if you come to a sactioned league game. You can purchase additional packs that are tradable that have prizes in them, but there's an extra stipulation, the prizes are still property of the card manufactorer and they can revoke your access to them at any time, you are legally bound (EULA) not to sell them for real money unless you have their express permission to do so. Does this make things better or worse, I have no idea legally (but I have strong personal opinions about it)
As for the gambling/lottery aspect, I think it's more along the lottery personally. You are paying (wether through your subscription or when you buy more packs) for an item (second life had a legal battle that I think did find that "virtual items" can have a value) that is NOT a part of the TCG. You get 5 chances with your $15 subscription and can buy more chances for $3 (I think).Since this mechanism (loot cards) is obviously marketed and targeted to the MMO side of the game, and only the MMO side of the game because they have NO affect on the TCG, then it is reduced to a lottery drawing. Does this help put things into a new light?
One last thought about "prizes" in other contests like McDs. If you want the items, you can go out and purchase them. In this game, you cannot. Another aspect that affects this? I think so, but again, I do not know the legal side of it.
Thank you all for your time tonight. Have a good night all.
Thanks for the info. Trev, interesting and enlightening
.
You know as I look at the whole TCG, I see so many overlapping strategies designed to reinforce spending that it's almost mind-boggling:
1. The cards that you get as part of your subscription are "no trade." They therefore don't have the same value in the game as the loot items you win by gambling for them. This encourages people to buy additional card packs hoping to increase their chances of winning the premium loot.
2. The drop rate of the no trade items is unknown. People may pay their subscription for months and never get what they want, and never really know what their chances are. Also, there chances to win could be manipulated outside of their awareness. Impatience may then encourage people to buy additional card packs, hoping to win a particular item.
3. Buying additional cards packs for the chance of obtaining loot, and winning has the same psychological reinforcement as winning at slots. Every once in a while, you get lucky. This enticing people to pay their money and pull the lever one more time.
4. The loot items embedded in the TCG do give SWG players advantages in the game: combat buffs, faster vehicles, unique structures.
5. Since you've already paid a subscription fee, you may not want to be a second class character (e.g. one without the latest, best gear or buffs). People may then be motivated to gamble so that the character they have already invested in remains competitive.
6. People often like to collect cards in TCGs. After you've made a nice deck and collection for yourself, you need to keep subscribing to have access to it with this TCG, since you never actually own any printed cards.
All of these overlapping strategies do something we call "shaping" in my field. They shape behaviour. In this case the behaviour being shaped is giving money to SOE.
Also keep in mind that whatever you are seeing in SWG's card game is just a warm-up for Free Realms and The Agency which will both be RMT scams.
Be warned, this is going to be a TL:DR post for those who arn't discussing this seriously.
I read the whole thread. This was very interesting. Allow me to give my neutral point of view.
I don't play SWG. I have never played SWG. I never intended back then, now, or in the future to play SWG, regardless of how great the game is or is not, because I am not interested in playing a Star Wars-based MMORPG, and therefore I fall out of the game's target audiance. However, I do not hold any hate, disgust, or prejudice against the game. I enjoy the Star Wars Intellectual Property, and I enjoy MMORPGs. I do not want to play a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion not because the game isn't meeting any standards that I would want, but because I am just simply not interested in playing a Star Wars game in an MMORPG fashion. I will not be purchasing SW:TOR either due to my disinterest, and even though I am disinterested, I hold no biase towards the game because I have not played the game, and thus it would be foolish for me to make any opinionated remarks on a game that I have never played and don't have any interest to play either. So please, consider my thoughts on the subject, as my thoughts are from a true neutral point of view about the topic at hand, and not because a previous biase was or is lingering to taint my opinion. I hold no like or dislike for SWG, and I hold no like or dislike for SoE. Now for the topic at hand...
From what I have read in this thread, and at other sources through educated research, SoE is definitally breaching a law. The TCG's game-enhancing Loot Cards do have a market value, and a very strong one at that, using the $300 worth of some Loot Cards at auction sites as an example.
Futhermore, the TCG isn't a true TCG either. There are no physical, tangable cards in your ownership. There is no true ability to freely trade since your subscritpion's 'free' booster packs are not tradable. And there is no security in ownership of any of these since SoE, from their own EULA, state that the cards are their digital property, to be modified or deleted at their discretion. Furthermore, you can't even play the TCG unless you purchase a SWG subscription. If one wanted to trade their excess cards to a friend(who does not wish to pay money into the TCG but is interested) to allow them to play the TCG, the person would be unable to do this, because not only are some cards untradable, but the game REQUIRES a subscription to be played, therefore it would force his friend to subscribe if he ever wished to play the TCG, and not only would he have to subscribe, but he would need an internet connection to even view the cards and play the game.
If we compare SWG's TCG to other games, you will see big, glaring differences. Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering are popular TCGs that we can start with. Yes, the cards have a monetary value, but the value is for the card itself to be used with the card game in question, or because the card is rare due to a misprint, a change in artwork on future cards, or even a balance change that banned the card or changed the card's abilities in newer versions of the game, but still allowed the older version of the card to be used in playing the game properly, officially and fairly. If one were to lose interest and stop playing M:TG or Pokemon, they can archive their cards away, sell their cards, or give them away, or even trash them if truly desired. However, they still own the card because they have the card. It is physical, it can be touched, and it is a product of the game that was purchased or obtained by the owner in some way, shape or form. Outside of losing the card through misplacement, a debacle of the owner's fault, or theft, the card is, and will always be, under their ownership and belong to the person who owns it, and this cannot be revoked, even if the person never purchases anymore cards of the game. Even if the game stops being produced, the cards remain to be traded, collected, or even played with for as long as the cards can physically exist in the ownership of those that bought the cards. This factor also makes card collecting an indirect investment, as it is this reason that many other card-type entities(Such as baseball cards) have high value and high collectability.
Now lets look at some other TCGs with more differences than our traditional TCGs, such as the World of Warcraft TCG and even Magic: The Gathering Online. Lets start with the WoW TCG first.
The WoW TCG is also legitimate, even though there are game altering items, similar to the case in the SWG TCG case. However, the WoW TCG does things differently that legitimizes it. Firstly, you do not have to have a World of Warcraft subscription, or have ever subscribed in the first place, to be allowed to play the WoW TCG. You don't even have to purchase cards to be allowed to play, as you could simply be given cards from someone else, and now have enough cards to participate in the game that the cards are meant for. Booster Packs and the like are available for purchases for those who want cards for the TCG, and of course, these cards vary in rarity and thus it is a change the purchaser takes. However, whatever the cards are that he gets from the booster pack, the cards are, and always will be except for theft and mishaps as outlined before, under his ownership. The cards are physical, solid entities that are tangible, and thus are true property, so it mimics the properties of other card games like Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering perfectly... except for the loot cards. The loot cards in WoW's TCG link it in similarity to SWG's TCG, but there are a few BIG exceptions.
First off, loot cards you get in WoW's TCG do NOT require you to be subscribing to the actual World of Warcraft MMORPG, nor do you actually have to ever have played the MMORPG game or be playing the MMORPG game to receive a loot card. Second, unlike SWG's TCG, with the WoW TCG's loot cards, you are receiving a physical, tangible entity(the loot card) if you get one in the packs, or if someone gives you it. You truly 'own' the loot card, because it is a physical entity, and is NOT a digital entity, such as SWG's TCG. If the WoW TCG ever stopped production, or World of Warcraft stopped maintaining servers, you still own the physical entity that is the loot card, and thus it can still be considered an investment in collectability and tradability, and the loot card can hold monetary value for desire of the physical entity in your posession by any avid collectors. The same is not the case for SWG's TCG, as there is no physical entity, trade is restricted to some of your cards, you cannot collect any cards of the SWG TCG unless you actually play the game, and when the SWG service ends, the TCG will most likely end with it since it is linked to the SWG subscription, and thus all your digital cards will vanish since you never had physical ownership of it to begin with. Thirdly, the loot cards in WoW's TCG do NOT give players of the MMORPG an advantage if they manage to get them. The items obtained by the TCG Loot Cards for use in the MMORPG are either cosmetic or offer the player to receive the in game loot something that has no effect on the core gameplay of World of Warcraft. The loot card's actual item received in World of Warcraft is moreso for 'bragging rights' than for 'a competitive advantage', which is, as far as I know, NOT the case with the SWG TCG's loot cards. Fourthly, the loot cards you receive in the WoW TCG function as actual cards as well, cards that can be used in the TCG and thus still retains a purpose to those who do not play the World of Warcraft MMORPG. The loot cards in SWG's TCG, as far as I know, do NOT have any purpose other than to give the person a SWG item. The loot card cannot by itself be used in the TCG, and thus for the people who play only the TCG and not SWG, would be worthless to the person purchasing the pack, and thus be disadvantageous to the player to actually receive one, because getting a loot card instead of other cards in the TCG means that the 10 card booster pack you bought for cards to use in the TCG was actually 9 cards(or even less) and a useless-to-you loot card, and thus you would feel a notion of being ripped off, receiving only 9 or less actual usable cards, and a useless-to-you loot card that can't be used to enhance the TCG experience because it has no use within the TCG itself. Yes, you may be able to trade and sell the loot card to other people and receive money and/or cards back from any transaction you took with that loot card, but once again, these are trades, actions and prices that arise only because a non-usable card in the TCG was inserted into the booster packs of cards intended to be used in the TCG. In essence, these cards force TCG players to interact with SWG players in non-TCG ways if they wish to make their purchased loot card, a product of monetary investment in a TCG, useful for not only the purchase of the card, but also to make up for receiving only 9 cards instead of 10 out of a booster pack(or worse). This is not the case in WoW's TCG, as the cards have an actual use in the TCG as a card, and thus never forces a person who does not play the MMORPG to have to interact with anyone of the MMORPG to put their card, their investment of money, to usage.
Then we have the case of Magic: The Gathering Online. Like SWG's TCG, M:TGO uses digital cards that are purchased for money, and payment to use their services is required. Some cards are even unique to MTGO that are not available to MTG players. However, unlike SWG'S TCG, collecting these digital cards does have an ultimate purpose for the player, especially since MTGO and MTG are the exact same game(One is digital, one is physical, but both play exactly the same). If a player collects an entire series of cards(either by buying packs, trading individual cards for other cards, for currency, or as a gift, or winning them through skillful play), they are able to trade them in and actually receive in the mail every single card of the set they had collected. They have the ability to turn their digitally owned cards(Which are owned by the player, NOT the company when they are purchased, even in their digital form) into solid, physical entities, real cards, that can be used in the Magic: The Gathering TCG, and thus enjoy the same qualities of life as a regular purchase of Magic: The Gathering cards. M:TGO allows you to turn your digital property into physical property(If you collect the series of cards, that is). Through this method, there even exists cards for the offline, physical TCG that are only obtainable through the online, digital TCG, but they are not gamebreaking or gamechanging enough to warrant direct want of them from true players, though collectors will find them worth quite a bit. In essence, while MTGO has something available from it that benefits the offline game that can't be gotten elsewhere, these is no demand for these cards because they are not necessary in the least bit to be competitive, unlike the SWG TCG loot cards having loot that changed the competitiveness of the SWG game. And also, SWG's TCG cannot have its cards turned into physical entities under any condition, unlike MTGO, therefore once again ruining any 'investment' the player makes into the cards for worth after the game stops production and/or ceases to exist, as these cards do not and will never exist physically.
As you can see, compared to the other TCGs out there, SWG's TCG has so many faults with it, that even people playing it for the TCG itself are being scammed, as you are required to pay into a different game to play it, you are unable to trade your cards received from said subscription, you are unable to physically hold or touch your cards as they do not and will not ever exist in a physical form, and when the SWG game's service ends(face it, a game has to end its service someday), the cards are gone for good, never to be seen again. And even if they never end service, you must pay a subscription fee, the fee being equivalent to what you would pay for a AAA MMORPG, to even have access to your cards. Forfeit the subscription and you forfeit your right to play the TCG with cards you 'own'.
Therefore, where is the incentive to play and purchase the SWG TCG? TCGs exist, survive and leave a legacy based on the incentive to have people purchase the cards in the first place. In Magic the Gathering's case, we can see multiple incentives to purchase the cards, such as for playing the TCG, for getting better cards for your deck for the TCG, for making multiple decks without borrowing from other decks, for outright collecting for prospective income from selling to another collector or player, or to just collect simply to be a collector of Magic: The Gathering cards. Some people even buy Magic: The Gathering cards simply for the beautiful artwork on the card. These incentives are what put a price on the cards themselves, the booster packs, and the future of the game. Useful cards to players will always net a high price because they will be low in circulation for collectors to collect, and/or low in circulation for players to play with. Thus collectors will post high price offers to collect and archive the card, and players will post high price offers to purchase the card in order to utilize it in their deck. The same can be said for Pokemon's TCG, Magic the Gathering's Online TCG, and even World of Warcraft's TCG. The same cannot be said for SWG's TCG.
Why is SWG not like the other TCGs above? Because unlike them, the cards are not real(and will never be real) and hold no value for collectors to invest in. The game itself also cannot be played or shared to play with other people easily as it is purely digital AND linked to a subscription based online game which you MUST purchase the subscription of in order to play, and MUST be online to play. The game also has untradable cards that remain untradable if you received them from the 'free' booster packs, thus destroying the point of the 'trading' in the Trading Card Game acronym. The cards can be changed for balance reasons at the will of the publisher, reducing their collectability. And you can receive cards, loot cards, useless to the TCG as they do not have any positive effect on the TCG and cannot be used in a deck for the TCG. Their only use loot cards have for a TCG player, as far as I can see, is removing a potential card from the player's booster packs.
And the worst part is, the actual playing cards from the TCG have no real currency value, as traders barter with cards or in-game currency to trade the playing cards and NOT real money. On the other hand, the loot cards, cards that are useless to the TCG player, not only do they hold a monetary value in the real world, but some hold a SIGNIFICANT value. And while you can say this is a great boon for the TCG player since they can sell the card and make actual profit from selling the card, there does exist a problem, and the problem does not lie with the selling of the loot card(Even WoW loot cards are sold every now and then). The problem lies in the target audiance of the loot card, the SWG players. These loot cards of the SWG TCG benefit ONLY the SWG player, and hold no benefit and no reason to collect for the TCG player.
These loot cards apparently have siginificant, game changing advantages over what is obtained in the actual game. History in gaming shows that players want to remain competitive, and will do what it takes to remain there. PC game players that don't play MMORPGS, but other games like Counter Strike, Crysis, Call of Duty, Starcraft, and other competitive games will buy expensive computers, heavy duty high quality ISP service, expensive peripherals, comfortable clothing, high quality chairs, desks, and all other things all to achieve the perfect ambiance and perfect setting to play their game at the top competitive level and to remove hinderances getting in their way. And even if players are not top quality tournament level, they will still want to play a game well, and will typically purchase a computer that can run it, broadband internet, and a decent monitor, mouse and keyboard, and mabye other things. And even if they don't purchase all these things, the players can still play just fine on a crappy computer with crappy equipment, but on a technical scale, they are at no true disadvantage over other players because they have the same access to the same game, and player skill and tactics will still be in the majority of how things are settled. Those who are competitive enough, however, will purchase and upgrade to play and perform better in order to stay at the top of the competition. The same holds true in MMORPGs. Players will do boring, time consuming and repetitive leveling processes, quests, raids, crafting, and other things in order to be competitive and at the top. In free to play games, like MapleStory(Most successful Free to play MMORPG available), players purchase things that assist them in leveling faster, hitting harder, or moving around the globe of the game quicker, or just to not have to worry about using potions and whatnot, because it makes the player able to play at a higher performance rating than they were able to before, and thus people will upgrade as their budget allows to become better, or in games with no shops like World of Warcraft, will invest as much time as possible to get the best equipment in the game to be competitive.
These loot cards offer game changing advantages that are not easily available to players that don't buy TCG cards. While that would be dandy and fine, the major problems are that players are already paying a AAA fee to play SWG, and there doesn't exist in-game non-TCG equivalents to what is available. So SWG players will buy into the TCG, hoping to receive a loot card, or they'll pay an extreme amount of real-life currency to purchase said loot card. This, however, indirectly preys on a major psychological problem: Gambling Addiction.
A SWG player who wants to remain competitive, but has no desire to play the TCG, now has to put money into the TCG to get the advantages, and they have two ways to do this. They can either buy the loot card they want from another player directly for a high price, or purchase a booster pack for a chance to get the competitve loot cards. And this is the first time I've used the word 'Chance' in this thread in a gambling fashion too. While the World of Warcraft TCG's loot cards are also in booster packs and people take chances to get them, they are not the same as SWG's TCG. WoW's TCG's cards are still physical entities which you own and keep even if you don't get the loot card you want, and there is no desire to get the loot card other than bragging rights that give you no advantage, so competitive players who don't have the budget won't risk their money for an item that won't help them defeat the next biggest raid boss or defeat the PvPer with the best gear in the game. Not the same apparently in SWG's case, because there is no other alternative for getting the best, competitive gear in the game. And it is these competitive, low budget players that fall for SWG's TCG ploy. By offering an inexpensive, but low chance, method to instantly receive some of the best gear, unique stuff in the game that cannot be gotten anywhere else and offers a true competitive advantage, players will risk their luck to get the loot card for a cheap price instead of paying a larger sum to receive the exact card they want. And this is how someone's gambling addiction starts and continues. They will continually purchase booster packs until they get what they want or they run out of money. It's not their fault, it's a neurological problem from deceptive interfaces, deceptive numbers, and the gambler's fallacy. Worst of all, the regular cards received will be of zero use to the SWG player looking specifically for the competittve loot cards, and arn't even a physical entity to collect, give away, or even sell for the card's own value. This turns the Booster Packs into a lottery for SWG players, and since it's time paced(like state lotteries and even casinos), an addicted gambler will continue to purchase the packs in hopes of winning the lottery at stake with no gain in return, in this case hoping to win the gamechanging competitive loot cards. And with the deceptive numbers and interface used for the loot card's actual appearance, this can quickly turn an addicted gambler bankrupt. There is no limit to how many packs can be purchased, no posted odds of receiving a loot card in the booster packs, and nobody there to stop the gambler from continually purchasing booster packs. The gambler, in a state of mind where he thinks that he will win it in the next one, continues to buy and buy until bankrupt or receives the loot card in question. The odds of him receiving the card before spending more money than it's worth is very, very low, as SoE has posted no actual odds of how often the loot cards appear in booster packs. This means that SoE can fix the odds in their favor any way they like without telling the purchasers(Akin to how the House in a Casino can fix the odds to their favor over the player even more than normal, what is called rigging). With no posted odds, no purpose of these loot cards being in the TCG other than to draw in income from those using the TCG Booster Packs like a lottery(Not taking away from the income from the actual TCG players, but drawing in SWG players for their own income to be used not on the TCG, but only the loot card lottery), and no limits beyond the credit card limit, SoE is essentially running a gambling business, offering players a chance to receive a gamebreaking competitive advantage. This chance is offered only in exchange for money AFTER a $15 monthly fee is paid, which means that not only are they having to pay into the lottery to get a gamechanging competitive item, but they are also forced to pay a subscription to even be allowed to do this in the first place. If it was free to play, it wouldn't be a problem. SWG is not free to play, and therefore this changes the rules completely, and definitally qualifies this as a gambling ring. I'd go as far as saying it is extortion as well, for BOTH the TCG and SWG players, since one can't play at all and one cannot play competitively without utilizing the other. And like I said, the method being used by SOE's store for purchasing booster packs to receive a chance to get a loot card with no published odds and no limit is clearly in place to take advantage of gamblers. It does take advantage of gambling addiction(In a game where an addicted gambler may have turned to get away from gambling in the first place), and from the stories I've read, has taken advantage. This is not only unethical, but unlawful as well. The lottery-like gambling system they have with the loot cards was either crafted this way to entice gambling by accident, or was crafted to be this way from the beginning. And even if both ways were possibly true, they should have been stopped by the company's lawyers before the content was pushed live.
As a corporation dealing with online video gaming, and a large corporation at that, their lawyers should have been consulted or should have taken action to speak up against what exactly SoE is doing, and have drafted up the proper documents and clauses. Because of all the possibilities of being sued, their lawyers should have a hand somewhere in their production line in order to keep everything politically correct, unbiased, unhateful, equal opportunity, and that all content abides to the law without going overboard. From what I have read, SoE does not have documents and literature that would be considered valid for the operation that they are running. Even if they didn't intend the lottery to turn into gambling and consider it more of a promotion, they don't even have the proper documentation available to lay out the terms of it being a promotion. Therefore, this would be either a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about the law, a fault of the lawyers being unknowledgable about what they are doing does in fact require proper literature and information, a fault of the SoE employees that designed, drafted, and marketed the TCG and the Loot Cards, or a combination of these faults. Or even worse, they took no precaution with their service and launched it without bothering to look into the laws or what could possibly go wrong or draw court action, which is a bad move for any large corporation, especially when dealing with money on a global scale(regardless of how much money is in question).
In conclusion, the SWG TCG is definitally being operated as an illegal gambling operation in my eyes, is definitally breaking the law, and definitally should be brought to justice and pay for damages to those who have suffered losses from their gambling addiction taking over, especially in a video game that isn't supposed to have real money gambling for competitive items in the first place since this sort of gambling is illegal in a pay to play game.
If any of my information would be helpful to those seeking to bring this to the attention of the gambling authorities of the US and Canada, feel free to use this. I don't want to have typed this for nothing, and will also look into the matters myself. The best way to bring notification to a problem is if multiple sources bring it up to the governments. SOE should not go unregulated like this, and I praise those who are also actively seeking to bring regulation and justice to SOE, as this is definitally a broken law, and anyone who breaks a law, especially with gambling and minors in play, should pay the fine.
I wish you all luck on your endeavors,
Darxio
Heh, that is quite the essay...
Thanks much for sharing your thoughts and a ton of relevant information.