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My apology to the trolls, from an ex-fanboy, lessons learned (long)
HerculesSAS
Member Posts: 1,272
I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often). I was registered with the DF Forums since November of 2002, and followed the game since then. Every so often I'd check back with any juicy updates, and with any new information I would spam them to my guild, my friends in real life (some of whom played WoW or whatever), and on different forums. And for my spamming and pushing of this game, I am sorry.
Why am I sorry, you might ask? Well for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which was my entry into beta. I am part of the reason that trolls for this game reason even exist. If I hadn't pushed it to everybody, there wouldn't be such a backlash. I pushed the game before I knew what it was about, and how it really worked. And to whom did I push it? First to my guild -- who are mostly ex UO players and were all ready for a good PvP game now that UO was patched into uselessness. Some more were other MMO players, whom were looking for something different. And a lot more, and from where the trolls spawn, are people that didn't care, or had more realistic expectations of what the game would be. Some of these folks went on to enjoy Darkfall as it was in beta, and others hated it. And the folks who didn't get into beta and read about it from fanboys like me just got annoyed and irritated, and rooted for the game's failure.
Beta was a mixed bag. I got into beta early January of 09, and immediately began downloading the patches, going crazy installing, eagerly waiting my chance to play. I had waited for 7 years for this game, and I wasn't about to let another second pass me by. After finally patching and launching, and the servers being up -- I launched the game to find it completely unplayable because of the lag. I was informed to turn off shadows (which I did), and the game state changed to something drastically usable and reasonably stable as well. Then again, my system was pretty good to run it as well. I was getting good FPS and ping around 100, which was not too bad. And then began my journey to find out about the PvP game I had waited so long for.
I played for a few hours the first day until the servers crashed and was really enthralled with the goblin AI, the first person point of view for archery and magic, and more. By the second day when I got home from work, I logged in again, having read all day at the forums at work I came home expecting to kick some serious butt since we were all pretty new at the game. I was on IRC throughout the day earlier too, telling my guild that the game was awesome, and I was having a blast. They were all intrigued too, and some started more eagerly awaiting their beta receipts. I logged on again, and now with a fresh look and tons of forum information, I started to play. And then I started to realize the things that made me a little uneasy. The animations were bad. Really bad. The sound effects were worse than Starcraft. Still though, a game wasn't made by graphics, or sound, was it? I found that when I ran up a hill I'd often "float" in the middle of the air. Beta problems, I assumed. They will be fixed. Then I got to kill some more goblins and after they got low on health, they started running away... here comes that awesome AI I thought, and then I stood watch as the goblin ran around in a retarded circle with no rhyme or reason. It was starting to settle in, that the game wasn't very polished.
Days came and went, and daily I'd submit bug reports, go into the forums and post about what needed fixing -- things like adding hotkeys for the map and backpack, or making the UI a little more utilitarian and less awkward. Things like how the towns didn't have finished content and that you'd run up stairs only to be tossed into a WALL, and would have to run back down to get off. And all this time, I came to defend the game when it was being ridiculed, when the early beta leaks came out and showed some poorly done feature. It's in beta guys I said, they have it in debug mode and the monsters aren't all turned on. And it hit me, that who was I lying to? Them, or myself? I am by profession an IT manager, dealing with systems and software deployments in a financial firm. "Debug mode"? What did that mean to me? And I would think about it -- debug mode means we turn on verbose logging. When we are beta testing, the features are all there because the end user needs to see the full product. And slowly I resolved to be a harsher tester than I was before, and giving the harsh feedback that needed to be given.
It started almost two weeks later that I came to that point -- playing a few hours a day I never really thought much about the combat because it was almost an afterthought. But seeing players macroing ingame on a regular basis, and how I lagged behind I was reminded of the worst parts of UO. And I realized then that this game makes you macro because there's really no way to earn it "by playing the game". The combat I finally realized, was bland and lifeless, the real skill in the game being 'organized' rather than anything else. A well organized group would lead others into hitting each other and killing themselves. The game mechanics like the rogue system were poor, and magic was a humungous grind. Not to say I couldn't macro it up like everybody else... I just felt it was a poorly implemented system. The one thing that really led me to quit was when a guildmate got into beta and asked, "How's the PvP compared to UO?", and I couldn't at that point sell out what I believe to still be the best PvP in ANY game. I told him flatly, "it sucks". The game would be fun for a while if you had a guild, but the lifeless PvP really ruined the game. A sandbox game is great, and DF has the elements it needs there -- but PvP is useless and boring and if it's not immediately, it will soon become stale. I'm not much of a "city sieger" because Shadowbane taught me early that I have to give up my social life in order to defend the town, so I didn't care much for that. I wanted open world PvP, duels, guild fights, etc. This game would simply not support it.
Now on launch day (or launch+1 at this point), I reflect back to think about how much I trolled the folks who were not looking to be trolled by a game I didn't even know that much about. Sure, some people will enjoy it, and those people largely come from anything OTHER than UO, and the ones who liked it in UO are usually part of a large guild (SUN comes to mind during the beta) because they are organized and do well. I can understand that. I am here to apologize for all the stupidity I let out in defending the game before I knew what it was, but a good lesson to be learned here is that I need to have far lower expectations for a game, and be untrusting and biased AGAINST the developer if I want to see a game actually try to appease the end user. I won't even go into how bad the PR or communication has been with AV, I think we all know it. I'm just here to say I learned my lesson and now as I turn my sights to Mortal Online I'll keep a bias that I didn't have with DF, lest I be disappointed or dishonest with myself, or become a troll and an annoyance to others.
Comments
i cannot argue with a well, thought out post. Sorry the game wasn't what you hoped it would be.
Wait what? You should be apologizing to the people that you trolled, not the trolls. Go to whatever other game forums you posted on and apologize to the people that are minding their own business, not people that are just as bad as you were(as far as trolling goes). This post doesnt make much sense in the context it was given.
Also sorry Darkfall is not for you. And your comment about UO fans not liking DF is a joke. Every single UO friend I have kept in contact with that was in beta liked the game (4), and the others want to play.
to OP, you are forgiven. you have embraced the light while others are still stumbling in the dark.
Concepts are one thing, but actual gameplay is another. I think we've all learned our lessons from SWG and Vanguard, and I for one was happy to see the HMS Potential sink with Brad at the helm.
Despite of the general douche-gnomery coming from AV, I'd like to see some success come from DF for the player's sake.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Eh, who are you on the DF boards? I might have to note you down as one of the few honest LTFs.
19/02/2009 @11pm - "Your Darkfall preorder was successful!"
26/02/2009 @11pm - "During the preorder of Darkfall, your credit card transacton failed."
Ahh, classic Tasos!
Your apologzing because YOU didnt like the game?? weird
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Thanks for posting this. Helps to get both sides of the story, and I've wanted that for awhile now because the whole macro shit is giving me second thoughts about playing.
Played:
EQ1, AO, WoW, AoC
Best thread ever:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2680105/thread/225957#2680105
I dont really care much for the game DF, but i wanted to commend Hercules on a rare honest post that is sincere
GL on Mortal Online.
Played: Earth'n'Beyond-WoW-EvE-EQ2-LoTRo-PotBS-CoV-Vanguard-FFXI-DDO-L2
Embrace the white border, and all will be forgiven.
What say you?
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I was "Hercules" on the DF official forums before I got banned during the second week of my beta experience. It happened the day after I created a page that went to 13 pages, comparing DF's combat to the Counterstrike knife combat.
It was subsequently locked and deleted, along with them banning my work IP, my beta account, and forum account. Yet by Signus's own admission (he's a moderator in IRC and was in beta with me), there were trolls that were really bad that didn't get banned. Aventurine cleared out the people who talked badly about the game, probably some of whom were trolls and bitched, and then those of us who followed the game since 2002 and made valid commentary throughout the years on it and followed it religiously. I imagine I was in the minority there, because there weren't many people with a join date earlier than mine (Signus included) so it was kind of entertaining to see me get banned after years of posts asking for information, giving feedback (before beta), and more.
If you search for my posts, they are almost all deleted. Kind of funny there.
I don't know how many UO friends you have but I know about 15 UO players that tested and learned about no housing and they went back to UO. To the OP nice post and I think everyone on these forums including me need to apologize for something said.
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
Price of a Darkfall Pre-Order... $50 Dollars
Price to play the game a month.... $15 Dollars
Price of decent forum a month... $300 Dollars
Price of Darkfall fans not having a honest come back.... Priceless
For everything else use mastercard.
You know people can check your posting history, don't you? If you wanna make a thread like this , better make a new account to post. Just sayin.
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
"I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often)."
His first line. Some serious reading comprhension skills are indeed needed.
Here are some gems from this Darkfall "Fan":
"Jeez man, they aren't looking too good. I saw a few the other day and some folks think the game is awesome and I'm looking at the same screens and saying "really?"
There are some negative ones too, search under "DFLeaker" on Youtube... I'm just amazed that they think this game is ready for anything. It looks boring."
"Doesn't anybody realize that they have a LIMITED RELEASE, in order to meet the demand that they said they can handle?
It pretty much means that Tasos is totally full of shit and happy to take your money from you. It's so bad that they seem to be creating accounts BY HAND. It means they had no system in place to automatically process these things, the account management is a joke, etc.
I like the excuses but the vast majority is what they said they could handle and thus, limited the # of preorders. They only announced preorder a few days before LAUNCH.
This is shaping up to be EPIC EPIC fail. I'll bet on another day of downtime before some people give up and cancel their pre-order, and then finally it will be up.
Two months or so until total fail. Then it will truly be epic fail."
"I knew this launch was going to be epic fail...
I'm just waiting a little while longer before I make my "Epic Fail" signature files and put Aventurine/Darkfall stuff into it. I think it would be higher quality than the game is anyway
"
Yeah it looks like he never made 1 positive post about Darkfall on these forums. Good thing you apologized for "hyping" Darkfall at the place you NEVER hyped it.
Sorry to ruin your thread though.
Sorry the game didn't meet your expectation, and hope one of the future like-minded MMOs that are coming out will do it for you.
I must say I disagree completely with your remarks on pvp and combat in general, but to each his own.
_______________________________________________
Games looking forward to: Fallen Earth, Mortal Online
The noob formally not known as not being the formally not unkown known APEist; The Stone Cold Killer of Tarq.
So...Hercules. The things that you are reacting to are a monotonous PvP experience, macroing and general bugs? And you don't think it's feasible to expect that AV will fix these issues? I am asking because I am genuinely interested in your opinion.
I definetly agree with you on the PR part of AV which ahs been an absolute disgrace, but seeing that they are only six people, I didn't really expect much.
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
"I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often)."
His first line. Some serious reading comprhension skills are indeed needed.
I am not good at reading comprehension, but my spider sense tells me that when someone who has been banned on a game's official forum, comes to a site ,where his posting history is mostly negative towards said game, to appologize for being a fanboy and defending said game....well you don't need a higher iq than Paris Hilton to see where I am going.
Dark and Light? Lol
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
"I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often)."
His first line. Some serious reading comprhension skills are indeed needed.
I am not good at reading comprehension, but my spider sense tells me that when someone who has been banned on a game's official forum, comes to a site ,where his posting history is mostly negative towards said game, to appologize for being a fanboy and defending said game....well you don't need a higher iq than Paris Hilton to see where I am going.
Haha yeah. I do not think the OP knew we could see his posting history. He didnt think this through all the way it seems.
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
"I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often)."
His first line. Some serious reading comprhension skills are indeed needed.
Originally posted by strongaxe
"He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?"
I am still looking for the word "troll" in that red text up there.... Still looking.... looking.... nope don't see it.
Troll = Behavior?
Man webster's need to update their shit I guess.....
Price of a Darkfall Pre-Order... $50 Dollars
Price to play the game a month.... $15 Dollars
Price of decent forum a month... $300 Dollars
Price of Darkfall fans not having a honest come back.... Priceless
For everything else use mastercard.
HMS Potential. HAha! I love it. So true.
This is actually a good post. I agree with the OP's opinions about the game itself as someone who tested DF in beta. I won't be playing the retail version.
Have a winner and don't go on a game over! Does your avatar make you powerful in real life? Check out the Mystical Enders gaming community. www.mysticalenders.com
He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?
Some people need some serious reading comprehension skills.
His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about.
The meat of his post is what he found to be the short comings of DF all the while still trying to sell the game to friends and guildmates, only to realize he was trying to sell them into a game he did not feel was as great as he initially made it out to be.
He came here to give a heart felt honest opinion on the game, and apologize to those who he battled against in his blind faith of DF.
The post was good, well thought out and articulate.
Good reading for anyone with basic reading comprehension skills.
"I am here to apologise to a lot of you guys for the behavior I've probably exhibited in many places (not here often)."
His first line. Some serious reading comprhension skills are indeed needed.
Originally posted by strongaxe
"He also said he didnt troll here much, yet he apologizes here. Wait what?"
I am still looking for the word "troll" in that red text up there.... Still looking.... looking.... nope don't see it.
Troll = Behavior?
Man webster's need to update their shit I guess.....
"His entire post is about how he was a blind zealot fan who would troll back against the trolls defending a game he knew little about."
That is directly from your post my man. Why would he apologize here if he never ever ever ever showed himself to be a "fanboy" or even a fan on these forums.
I would suggest you not dig yourself an even deeper hole.
I would have done this on the official forums but since they are down for the foreseeable future, I opted to post here. I mean, we have mods from the official forums posting here too, so I figure it's the next best place, right?
And yes when I post sometimes I am bitter about it and that can show through prior posts. I would have liked to be part of beta and helped them fix the things that were wrong, but unfortunately that wasn't to be. I've calmed down since then, and now I can post an apology for helping to create the trolls that I now seem to be at times (in the "anti AV" sense of troll).
I am not going to lie and say that I wouldn't laugh a bit in irony if the game died a horrible death. I won't. But to think that I followed the game for 7 years and led myself to believe it was awesomesauce is only a lesson I want to pass on after DF, because Mortal Online is next and I don't want people to do the same stupid shit I did and cause even more trolling, and high expectations, and even more -- people lowering their expectations to let a game match them.
We should all have high standards and stick to them. Principles only mean something if you stick by them when they are INCONVENIENT.