Bioware is making a mmo.The focus of an bioware game is the always story.My only worry about the game is the pvp.For record Aoc and War are struggling(especially war) because they lack pve.Wow is keeping its dominate place is because of its pve content and adquate pvp.People like to say the sky is falling,No game will have any sucess without strong pve,mmo players are trained nowadays to rush through content to get to the endgame if you don't have good pve people will tired of your game in a month or two. I am huge PvP player that is why i play most mmos but no mmo will be huge sucess without good pve endgame.
I would not say AoC has not done well not because there isn't enough PvE content. There is actually a good bit (at least now) with well written quests and engaging NPCs that give you that "storybook" feel. I did not play AoC at launch, I waited til after they removed the head guy, then gave it a try. That's usually the best time to try a new product if it was previously stinky. I think it had too many problems at launch with techical issues mainly, but also because it tried to serve two masters.. PvE and PvP.
People wanted to chop each others heads off with fatalities but there were too many bugs and overpowered/underpoweredness. So that made the killing each other part very boring to most pvpers. The endgame is actually a very good concept for a PvP game (much better than WAR imo) as in WAR there really isn't a reason to fight other than watching blue and red bars creep up and down one side or the other. In Conan, your guild owns a city that you build with your own resources. There is pretty much the opportunity to live almost entirely in the guild city with NPCs and shops inside, while just attacking other guild's cities. You have much more incentive because your hard work YOU built can be destroyed if you allow it. Rivalries would happen simply because you don't like a particular group, and could change on a dime. And although there are no artificial factions as in WAR (me Order, you Destro.. I kill you) you could easily see an opportunity where several guilds could gang up on a super guild, only to later have a falling out... making the politics way more fun than just a two sided contest in typical PvP games.
Actually, both games tried to serve both crowds and that's why they failed thus far. WAR went Pvp heavy but had its premise in the endgame, which was horribly scarred and underpopulated. It was built as a "non-grind alternative" to WoW's PvE dungeons, but surprise.. gear driven loot grind; renown point grind. Their PvE is pretty bland by typical MMO standards, just not engaging at all which is a shame because you wonder how with a great IP to base it on. The NPC's are pretty much cardboarded decorations and the storyline is muddled except for "We hate Destro/Order" thing. You get the feeling that in the Warhammer world, there are only two factions and as any WAR tabletop fan knows, this is far from reality. AoC had the opposite problem, they put too much into the PvE side, and the pvp suffered. Now WAR is finally beginning to go through actual official server shutdowns due to the slow condition of the game, just as AoC had done.
Basically, with all the games I mentioned in the original post having PvP as endgame goals, I'm not asking for much on the NEW MMO front (to the guy who says what's wrong with what is out now). I merely ask that one company seize this opportunity to make a heavily based PvE game. Make all the pvp clones you like, just leave us dinos with one new MMO to run around in, without having to worry about the prospect of constantly worrying about action every five minutes because someone is lurking behind a tree. That is fun for the first hour, but after that, it really gets old.
As some others have stated or hinted at, I don't think you are seeing any kind of real trend here. PvP is popular with devs at the moment for three big reasons...the first and most important of which is that PvP is "content-lite", it takes the *least* dedicated time of any "content" to develop because it is all player driven. The "endgame" raid and zone design of games like EQ and WoW is a huge investment of coder, writer and graphic designer manpower/time and many many studios are "cheaping out" for various reasons. Secondly, the lack of any good modern pvp-driven MMO made the market niche seem pretty attractive and everyone raced for it. The only reason that niche hasn't been overfilled yet is because most of the games that went for it (AoC, WAR, PotBS etc) failed in many regards. Likewise, many studios are trying desperately to capture the perceived next big "growth market" of MMOs...that of crossover FPS players. Lastly, perceptions....the *minority* of players who want "sandbox" gameplay and pvp-centric games are incredibly vocal, mostly because they tend to be somewhat jaded/experienced gamers who aren't happily playing something else and so have time to whine and bitch a lot on forums...(Like me However, have no illusions here, that is a tiny minority of the MMORPG potential player market, the majority are off happily immersed in questing and PvE in EQ2, Vanguard, WoW, LotRO and all the other currently active and successful MMOs with little to no pvp content.
This is pretty much my opinion, too. All of it. In fact, I wonder if the relative failure of WAR didn't send big time developers and investors running back to what they KNOW works. Also, of the games mentioned in the OP's first paragraph, how many have even heard of them? Maybe Aion, if they've played CoX or Guild Wars, two pretty big names in MMOs.
I have a feeling that most of us around here who scour the internet looking for something to play are a small minority of MMORPG players. Not many of the people I know who play WoW or EQ2 read these boards or even much beyond the official boards now and then. Almost none of them have ever even heard of Darkfall, or any those others.
Bioware is making a mmo.The focus of an bioware game is the always story.My only worry about the game is the pvp.For record Aoc and War are struggling(especially war) because they lack pve.Wow is keeping its dominate place is because of its pve content and adquate pvp.People like to say the sky is falling,No game will have any sucess without strong pve,mmo players are trained nowadays to rush through content to get to the endgame if you don't have good pve people will tired of your game in a month or two. I am huge PvP player that is why i play most mmos but no mmo will be huge sucess without good pve endgame.
I would not say AoC has not done well not because there isn't enough PvE content. There is actually a good bit (at least now)
I don't know. Almost a year after AoC's launch and they are just now about to release an update that will make it so there is enough content to make it to level cap without grinding. I think for a mainstream MMO, this example proves the point that pve content is on the decline since its seems almost unthinkable that at this late date a top tier MMO could release with so little content. AoC's failing was that they intended to rely on pvp, but it didn't work out so well. Perhaps if they had a robust pvp dynamic the game would be doing a lot better.
Any I think that the decline in MMO's is not of pve actually but more fundamentally, the idea of player as community is what is really being left behind in the new wave of MMO's. Whether they be based on pve or pvp, there aren't too many that are driven by the players. More and more MMO's are beginning to feel more like traditional standalone rpgs, with massive multiplayer support added.
Yes, PvE is dead. Why you ask? That's easy! Look at the huge success of the PvP Titles that have released thus far! It's easy to see that PvP is the way to go! Seriously though, as mentioned before, I think the companies are trying to get into a market that isn't yet dominated. PvE isn't going anywhere. Is a PvP MMORPG really and MMORPG? If it's all PvP, the storyline and RPing is exactly a big priority for the devs.
To the OP,you are 100% correct,i am just sorry it took you longer to notice than i did :P
The trend makes it easier for developers to whip out a game.The leveling from 1-whatever matters not anymore,players don't even play to enjoy the game,they want the end game level in one day if they could.Then they spend all their resources looking for whatever edge/advantage they can get over their opponents .As you can see this is quite a superficial way to game,it really is a waste of time and has ZERO to do with fun.The truth is ,that it is ONLY fun when they are winning,when they are losing it is a crap unbalanced system and they start to look for cheats or other means to be the winner.
IMO this is not what MMORPG's were about,it was suppose to be a place where players go to join up with other players and enjoy the content.The developers needed to perhaps create more guild content for their games and maybe tweak certain areas,but on a whole the system was in place and was a good one.
This end game PVP/Raiding takes the LEAST amount of effort to create ,but at the same time,it offers that "chase the carrot on the end of a stick" scenario and it seems to be working.Rather than create a bunch on content for players to get along and work together,they just create a boring world and tell the players to go out there and kill each other.This is not about HARDCORE or CAREBEAR anymore ,this is about as weak a gaming setup as you can create...lazy developers unite..i guess.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
While I agree with your pain that theres not really any good mmorpgs coming out lately, I have to disagree fully in the direction of the genre. I mean, sure we are going to get a whole plethora of pvp-based mmos coming out soon, but if you think about it its probably just a phase that this genre will have to go through... like the WoW craze in its first two years.
If anything this is a good thing for the genre becuase eventually it will have to "grow up" becuase someone somewhere will actually use the technology available these days to take mmorpgs to where they are supposed to be... for roleplaying, fun, and vast immersiveness. When I say "grow up" im saying that they will finally mesh pvp and pve together and make a proper roleplaying game with an immersive virtual world for you to roleplay in. It will have true conflict through roleplaying and not this fake conflict that the developers lay out for you. We will have an immersive virtual world.
One that can be worthy of the title "sandbox".
So just be patient like the rest of us jaded gamers. It will come soon.
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
The current reason that the MMOs that are PVP based haven't been doing well has been a combination of 2 things, level based and what I call the "Battlefield : XXX" syndrome.
I play EVE so I'm far from afraid of an open PVP world, but I agree it gets damn boring but when you have to deal with players that are higher level then you and there isn't anything you can do to enjoy the fight from the beginning. pvp games need to be skill based in a simliar method as EVE where its not level based in a skill based skin. Small amount of levels with an exponential increase of time to get to the higher levels. All characters should be able to compete and be used at all times together so you don't have the barren levels where your stuck fending for your self.
the "Battlefield: XXX" syndrome is what the current MMOs are doing for PVP. Instead of coming out with a style of PVP that fits well with a persistant world and thier storyline they instead l0ooked to FPS and shoehorned in thier game mechanics into the game. That why for the most part you get the Capture the flag, point control, etc. which to a big shock FPS do much better, which is why you get people saying i'd rather PVP in a FPS then a MMO... well no kidding.
You'll really start seeing PVP based games take off when they start making PVP soemthing that actually fits the game style. Sadly, it doesn't appear like that is going to happen anytime soon outside of EVE. So I have a feeling it will take a bit, but after this year is done with EVE expansions you might just start to see EVE take off and as such better PVP games may be in development.
I like a variety of it all PvP & PVE. Me personally loved DAOC I thought it had it all. But I am open to anything to me a pvp only game would be more like FPS game, but using swords or whatever it may be. Those are fun and great, but I do get bored with it. So I really think a true MMO needs it all, a good balance of it all. Why I don't play WOW. I was really surprised WOW did as good as it did cause it was very PVE heavy, but that is what sold and they did great.
Or do you think PVE dying cause of the younger generation? I mean the lack of attention span? As posted before, you see now people go into these new games and seems like they just want to get to the endgame the fastest, you always see them post oh look I am the first 50 or whatever it may be. People don't seem to take the time to play the game I feel.
While I agree with your pain that theres not really any good mmorpgs coming out lately, I have to disagree fully in the direction of the genre. I mean, sure we are going to get a whole plethora of pvp-based mmos coming out soon, but if you think about it its probably just a phase that this genre will have to go through... like the WoW craze in its first two years.
If anything this is a good thing for the genre becuase eventually it will have to "grow up" becuase someone somewhere will actually use the technology available these days to take mmorpgs to where they are supposed to be... for roleplaying, fun, and vast immersiveness. When I say "grow up" im saying that they will finally mesh pvp and pve together and make a proper roleplaying game with an immersive virtual world for you to roleplay in. It will have true conflict through roleplaying and not this fake conflict that the developers lay out for you. We will have an immersive virtual world.
One that can be worthy of the title "sandbox".
So just be patient like the rest of us jaded gamers. It will come soon.
Just my two cents.
Yea, I think the near future is fairly grim but it's not a permanent switch. WoW isn't a game anymore I think, it's like a culture lol. I'm basically going to stay back on MMOs for a while, I might give one or two a try every few months or so but I'm generally waiting for GW2. I think it's the xbox for now and maybe RTS' on my PC.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
mmos that are 90% pvp always fail if they are new they where fun years ago when they first came out and it was new but now look at war it was good at first but then people got bored to hell and now its a desert and people who think pvp is popular now because of darkfall that only has 7k people playing it at the mom is fail aswell
You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion. Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat. Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him. When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve. Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time. For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane. Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one?
For years they promise this that npc's could build there own fotresses and loot players TASOS on many occasions gave dev talks about this explaining how they looked at oblivion and improved much on AI and mobs could do this.
He also told us that mobs when attacked in dugeons just follow you out of dugeon if you try escape also not true.
Now it seems all a lie and mobs AI is not bad but there easy to exploit and they surely dont loot you or have own lives as oblivion had.
And world is indeed very empty, ofcorse maybe later they can implement more but the game is a fraction of what they have promised:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I think you are wrong... PvE will be the main future of mmorpg's, its just that the pvp is starting to develope,it dosent mean the PvE is dead.
Yes exactly. What we are seeing is just what happens when one side has dominated the market for some years. When I was on the Spellborn forums all the time in 2006 or so, some people were whining on how ALL the games that were out and were coming out were strongly focused on PvE.
We want PvP, we want PvP! So up and coming companies were like okay we're going to make games with a strong focus on PvP. And now all those games are coming out.
That does not mean PvE is dead, all it means is you can expect an influx of PvE games in the future.
I will mourn the passing of the PvE era. I know many on this site and around the industry today will not. Younger games want to kill each other, and companies want to be able to get the dollars that free games like Call to Duty were freeing people from having to spend.
When I want to do PvP from now on, I will look for those games because in most everyway, they are done consistently better with no "class balancing" issues or server downtime, or bugged environments and the whole host of problems. As for PvE, it will be a part of the games, but never again will it be the main focus of any new MMO.
Actually you are completely incorrect.
The plethora of PvP games is more about a backlash (though perhaps not so dramatic) to all the PvE games that are out.
then the PvP market will end up like the PvE market now and there will be another backlash and you will see more PvE mmo's. Rinse and repeat.
This happens all throughout our history. Take music. There is a growing of complexity until it reaches some sort of apex of complexit and all of a sudden the music changes to more simple elements and then grows again with experimentation. Same with Art.
That is how the history of human creativity seems to work.
However, I also think it's been shown that every game needs some semblance of both to really be successful. It's just how each type of game play will be weighted over time that will change.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion. I agree. But in a difference sense. I don't want another pvp or pve only game. I want one that is blended into a beautiful immersive world that anyone could do anything they wished and true roleplaying was encouraged. One could be a bounty hunter if one wished. One could be a traveling merchant. Etc. Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat. First thing first. I don't mind PvP at all. The thing is, when its the only thing that's in the game, or that PvP is its selling point it becomes bland rather fast. But to be fair its the same with PvE. The only solution is for developers to do away with these "only" games and mesh the two and create an immersive world. In other words. They need to think outside the box. Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him. Right and this is the issue with pve games. When the endgame consists of raiding it will be boring, eventually. What's the purpose of getting that gear? Just to look flashy? How boring. Don't get me wrong, I like working with a group to achieve something. But not when it's the same thing over and over. Why not have a group of devs (with props) and writers script constant events that actually happen in player cities? Have a dragon attack the city and risk burning it to the ground. Hell, the reward would be survival of the town and its resources. But again, we reach the same conclusion. Devs need to think outside the box instead of repeating tried and true EQ models until they are blue in the face and we all throw up because we are sick of them. When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve. Here is where I respectfully disagree. When you have systems like say.. WoW uses. sooner or later people will use the same moves on you becuase they are the best and that class is the flavor of the month. So there is actually alot of monotony. This is why skill based games with trumph any other in the future. (see mortal online, fpsmmorpg) But that is a separate discussion. Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time. But even so. I think a mmorpg should be SO much more than just PvP all over the place don't you agree? I personally don't want another "battleground" pvp like WoW's battleground instances and WAR's scenarios. Like I said.. there could be sooo much more. For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane. Really? That's a shame. But you have to give them credit for at least breaking the mold a bit eh? I hear the AI in that game is rough. Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one? Raiding? Grinding? Bland quests? The fact thats all there is to do? Need I say more? PvP mmos are starting to suffer the same thing, nothing really much to do except fight.
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion.
This
With so many new MMOs failing to break any new ground, why not continue to enjoy what we have until something truly new comes along?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
I for one am glad PvP games are coming back, so many games recently have been geared for a younger audience, and while they are fun and have their moments nothing is like rush you get after fighting someone and being able to claim your prize. every pvp encounter is like a boss raid, cause you never know what sweet gear your going to get next! I played asherons call darktide server and eq1 its brutal, getting ganked at lvl 5. lvling up is much more rewarding. there is so much to lose and so much to gain, its always exciting and keep you on your toes! i know its not everyones cup o tea but its mine and a good pvp game is long overdue. no more battlegrounds or arenas preset castle seiges. let build an empire defend it and take other peoples!
I still have faith in the PvE aspect, my faith is placed in Square Enix's new MMO. An RPG company making an MMORPG thats why I have faith. Keep tuned in at this years June E3. Dont be shocked if its out by Q4 this year either since they have been working on it for a 4-5 years nows. And SE likes to keep things secret until its on the virge of release.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
I often like reading the things you post and this was no exception. You put some good well written stuff down here and gave me some good food for thought. However I view things differently. You seem to view the old PvE game design as being something that game designers should hold onto while I think it is definately something which should be moved away from........as fast as possible!!
Originally posted by popinjay
Looking at all the new MMO releases in the upcoming year, you start to notice a trend. You can see plenty of different kinds of multiplayer games, but the one common theme in them is they all seem to be gearing the endgame towards PvP. Aion, Fallen Earth, Mortal Online, Earthrise, Spellborn, any of the "comic" Ips, Darkfall (just out), and the list goes on and on with most ending in pvp action. Actually its more than simply gearing the endgame towards PvP. In several of them PvP action is integrated into the entire game from the beginning and in a few of them it seems the entire concept of "endgame" is becoming obsolete. Darkfall is a prime example of this. There is no daft static unchangeable story that the players must follow as the players are free to do whatever they like so there is no "end" to the game. This is a great thing because it means that developers seem to be finally waking up to the fact that online games should not be about just fighting against the computer. They seem to have realised that they cant just keep making single player games in multiplayer mode and plonking them online. People want more than this. Now they are making games where the players are the real inhabitants and decision makers that decide and shape the game world and the PvE aspect is simply there to add substance to the background of the world.
It appears that the overwhelming majority of those games will all start off in traditional MMO style: Start at level 1, do plenty of quests, some token dungeons along the way until you reach endgame. Now where older MMOs used to have people pointed towards raiding for the endgame and some PvP as a sideshow, newer MMOs have people pointed towards PvP as the final culmination, and want to integrate it as the defining element. For a while I think this will be the case. Over time I expect to see the simplistic "You start at level 1 and finish at level 100" approach become less common as it really is just an outdated approach to game design which has carried over from single player games. In an online game players want to play games with and against each other. Levels only serve to divide and seperate people. They work fine for single player games because it is only the player vs the computer and as the player progresses through the story the computer scales to match the player, but in mmos they always cause unfair situations to occur (eg level 40 crushes a level 10 simply because he has more numbers). Also story driven content in mmos makes very little sense as well because in most cases you simply cannot play the game with each other because everyone is at a different point in the story. Set stories which never change are for single player games. They dont belong in online games. However dynamic PvE quests which change based on the players actions are a different matter.
Warhammer and Age of Conan is a prime example of where the industry is headed. Although both games did miserably compared to what was expected of them, they both follow a similar formula. PvE is used along the way as a means to level up your guy, with side diversions. Warhammer does offer the "pvp only" path of leveling, but its heavily dependant on population, so most people have been forced to go the PvE route do to low pops at times, but the endgame purpose in not in doubt. Kill other players. Yeah I agree. Also look at why WAR has not done very well. All the players are seperated from each other because they are forced into seperate "rooms" that are level dependant (eg everyone from levels 1 - 10 in room 1, levels 11-20 in room 2 etc). It is also a linear story that makes the players follow a line from "start" to "finish". If it wasnt a story driven game with PvE quests and levels then players would be free to go and fight battles with each other anywhere they liked. It would actually be a strategic war game with all the roleplaying elements which is what Warhammer is supposed to be about. Instead we have loads of players grinding through a very dull and predictable story just so they can reach the end of the game where the more enjoyable big battles take place........and thats the bit people really want to play.
Conan is more how I see the industry headed than WAR, though. In Conan, you level traditionally with PvE, but with Pvp minigames along the way so you can kill other players. There is enough dungeons to raid so that you don't tire of them, and then a small number of large ones at the end. But if you are in a guild, your guild is probably building or planning to build a keep in the PvP zone, where any other guild can attack your city. So guilds begin building walls to keep invaders out, while adding crafting items inside. Ultimately, your guild will end up with a city that needs defending constantly, which will make your endgame largely PvP based. Raiding will become the "sideshow", much like PvP used to be. You can actually be fooled into thinking Conan is a PvE game because the PvE questing is done so well, and then at 80.. you get an awakening with the mad rush to bolster defenses against other players. No actually AoC IS a PvE game. The end of the game may very not be that but that "little bit of the game" where you go from level 1 - 80 is the main part of the game. Thats where the developers spent most of their time creating content. Its primarily a PvE experience until you get to the end of the game. I hope mmos dont follow this route in game design because it totally goes against what online games are capable of. Again developers need to stop focusing on games where the players just play against the computer all the time. Online games should be a drasticly different experience to single player games. Currently they are far too similar by their design......which is understandable because games developers have been used to making single player games for years. Things are changing though as they are gaining the required skill and competence to make online games what they should be.
The types of MMOs in the past that were 90-95% PvE (FFXI, EQ2, WoW, etc) are becoming a dinosaur, as are the people that played them. Just like gamemakers wanted to copy Wow's success, they all seem as though they want to copy this formula of low maintainence endgame content.
When you reach endgame in a game such as this type, the developers now can relax. Why? Because they don't really have to create new dungeons for people to raid anymore. The people themselves will keep each other busy killing one another, over and over and over, in the same zones without noticing there's really nothing new to the table. A special event (Thankgiving Carve-up, or something similarly cheesy-named) will be the only things companies will have to do from that point on. Creativity will take a sharp nose dive because a Skull head trinket you got for killing 100 enemies will be good enough. How hard is that to design? How hard is that to design? A hell of a lot harder than any PvE endgame content. You are basicly saying that endgame content focused around PvP requires no effort to make and no level of maintenance and that isnt true. It is actually more open to potential bugs and balance issues and other things because the players have more freedom to do what they like. You seem to be thinking of it as a big empty room where the players just run around bashing each other. Good PvP endgame should have decent PvE content to support it (eg city building, summoning and creation of npc units to send against other players, dynamic world content that changes relating to player actions etc). Look at PvE endgame content. Is that really any harder to make? The devs just create a big dungeon like they have been doing throughout the entire PvE game. Its basicly just more of the same. It doesnt neccessarily require any more or less maintenance. Like I said a good PvP game will have PvE as well. There is no reason to seperate the two.
For younger gamers, this is a very good thing. They were raised on the PvP diet with console games. Most older gamers, who used to love to destroy humans in console and computer type games like Quake, Diablo, Unreal Tournament and such for PvP, then come to MMOs for PvE for a completely different satisfaction.. working TOGETHER with people in raids. Somehow developers have gotten people to pay for content they pretty much were getting for free for years, and happily paying for it. Perhaps this is where the industry was meant to go since inception and I never realized it while playing over the years. Yeah but also developers are getting people to pay a monthly fee for the same content they have been getting in single player games......because thats all a PvE mmo is. Its a single player game in multiplayer mode. PvP was always free in console games? Yeah well so was PvE. Also whats this nonsense about younger players being raised on PvP. I hope you are not trying to go down the old "PvP is for kids" route because if you are then you are completely and utterly wrong. Younger gamers play single player and multiplayer games just in the same way that older players do. Games are games. They are not favoured by any particular age group. Also when you referred to gamers (I will ignore the "older" part because its nonsense) working TOGETHER you seem to be implying that this is what mmos are all about. If you are then you are wrong. MMOs should allow players to work together AND against each other.......although of course this does depend on the setting of the game. If its a game about the inhabitants of Earth repelling an alien invasion and the players can only be humans then a pure PvE approach would make sense. The only reason people have such a problem with PvP in games is because of the levelling concept which has carried over from single player games. Developers have had a severe mental block about this and seem to find it really hard to find an alternative solution that is more suitable and appropriate to an online game populated by thousands of people. Just because its a roleplaying game it doesnt mean that it MUST have levels in it. Also because mmos have been designed as single player games we end up with people playing them as single player games (in multiplayer mode) so when player conflict arises it annoys people because they think "Heh hang on a minute. I'm busy playing an online single player game here. What do you think you're doing by infringing on MY game. This game is about ME because I am the hero."
I will mourn the passing of the PvE era. I know many on this site and around the industry today will not. Younger games want to kill each other, and companies want to be able to get the dollars that free games like Call to Duty were freeing people from having to spend. I will not mourn it in the slightest. In fact I will be shoving it out the door and handing it its coat and hat on the way out. PvE is the guest at a dinner party that manages to keep people amused and distracted with mundane jokes and stories but deep down everyone just wishes there was someone more interesting to have around. It has been long overdue for mmos to move away from the tired and tested PvE approach. It still has its place in mmos and I still think that story driven content has a part to play but I also think that the PvE content in mmos should be a LOT more dynamic and open to player interaction. Players actions should be able to change the outcome of the PvE content which should in turn effect the players in it. Otherwise you just end up with more games like WoW, EQ2, AoC and so on which are just static single player game worlds that the players cant have any influence over. The players are just bystanders in these games and nothing anyone does ever changes anything. By moving away from these PvE focused games developers can start to make dynamic and interesting games where the players can actually have a lasting impact on the gameworld........which is what a PERSISTENT online game world should be all about. Currently these games are persistent in completely the wrong way......as in they never change......at all. Call of Duty is a completely different experience to an mmo. The online aspect is simply a set of arenas where people shoot each other. There is no "persistent world" to explore or roleplaying elements to get involved in. I want an mmo which combines the good, exciting and competitive gameplay which we see in CoD with an online interactive gameworld and all the roleplaying values we find in mmos. Also please drop the "younger gamer" comments because its just a load of bollocks. I'm 33 and I was playing Battlefield 2142 earlier. Does that mean I was playing a game for kids? No I didnt think so.
When I want to do PvP from now on, I will look for those games because in most everyway, they are done consistently better with no "class balancing" issues or server downtime, or bugged environments and the whole host of problems. .......until developers make a decent mmo which actually has good gameplay in it. Gosh! Who would have ever thought of that?! An mmo which you can play just as well as any single player game? Surely not! Thats the point though isnt it. The online aspects of many single player games are generally better made than most mmos. Thats got NOTHING to do with PvP in a game though as what you are saying applies equally to PvE mmos. It just means that mmos suck. Bugs, lag and server downtime are always going to be an issue in online gaming. They plague ALL online games not just mmos. Class balancing is also an issue in other non roleplaying games as well ya know. In the Battlefield games the game mechanics, vehicles, weapons and maps were being tweaked for ages before any kind of balance was achieved. However people didnt notice it and complain as much because they were too busy enjoying themselves. However in mmos there is less actual gameplay for the players to get involved in which leaves a lot more time for the players to sit back and think "Hmmm I just clicked on that ability and I can see that the damage output of my dps class is 12.75% lower than the damage output of that tank class. This means that my designated role in the group mechanic is compromised." As for PvE, it will be a part of the games, but never again will it be the main focus of any new MMO. I hope so.
You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion. I agree. But in a difference sense. I don't want another pvp or pve only game. I want one that is blended into a beautiful immersive world that anyone could do anything they wished and true roleplaying was encouraged. One could be a bounty hunter if one wished. One could be a traveling merchant. Etc. Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat. First thing first. I don't mind PvP at all. The thing is, when its the only thing that's in the game, or that PvP is its selling point it becomes bland rather fast. But to be fair its the same with PvE. The only solution is for developers to do away with these "only" games and mesh the two and create an immersive world. In other words. They need to think outside the box. Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him. Right and this is the issue with pve games. When the endgame consists of raiding it will be boring, eventually. What's the purpose of getting that gear? Just to look flashy? How boring. Don't get me wrong, I like working with a group to achieve something. But not when it's the same thing over and over. Why not have a group of devs (with props) and writers script constant events that actually happen in player cities? Have a dragon attack the city and risk burning it to the ground. Hell, the reward would be survival of the town and its resources. But again, we reach the same conclusion. Devs need to think outside the box instead of repeating tried and true EQ models until they are blue in the face and we all throw up because we are sick of them. When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve. Here is where I respectfully disagree. When you have systems like say.. WoW uses. sooner or later people will use the same moves on you becuase they are the best and that class is the flavor of the month. So there is actually alot of monotony. This is why skill based games with trumph any other in the future. (see mortal online, fpsmmorpg) But that is a separate discussion. Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time. But even so. I think a mmorpg should be SO much more than just PvP all over the place don't you agree? I personally don't want another "battleground" pvp like WoW's battleground instances and WAR's scenarios. Like I said.. there could be sooo much more. For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane. Really? That's a shame. But you have to give them credit for at least breaking the mold a bit eh? I hear the AI in that game is rough. Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one? Raiding? Grinding? Bland quests? The fact thats all there is to do? Need I say more? PvP mmos are starting to suffer the same thing, nothing really much to do except fight.
Just my two cents.
I really like everything you said there. I totally agree with every word of it. Count me as a new fan ;-)
Actually you are completely incorrect. The plethora of PvP games is more about a backlash (though perhaps not so dramatic) to all the PvE games that are out.
Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.
The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.
Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.
PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.
First off, I didn't really understand if the OP meant WoW PvE "endgame"...4 hour raids...or if he meant story-driven, possibly quest-oriented PvE. Anyways, if he meant the raiding, I don't see why he's promoting it. Very few people actually enjoy it, but in a game like WoW, they're made to enjoy it because that's the best path to the best gear. By all means, if someone comes up with a slightly different template for raiding and doesn't make it mandatory, that's great.
Neon - I think you're right, except I think that the idea of everyone's actions affecting the game world won't appear in MMOs...without instances, of course. MMOs could take an AoC Tortage approach for the entire game I suppose, but still, everyone running around being the "Chosen One" really makes them all the same.
Personally i think in CoX adding pvp was a mistake on the CoH side as it required massive nerfing of existing char and lots of re-balancing just for pvp.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
You say you want another great PvE game, so let me ask you this. What is wrong with the current ones? WoW, EQ2 and LOTRO are all great PvE games. EQ2 has had like 4-7 expansions, WoW has had 2 and LOTRO has just introduced their first major expansion. Granted I started out on EQ and adored how great the PvE was in that game. I have over the years found that its far more entertaining to fight against humans than artificial intelligence. Dark Age of Camelot is a game I've been praising for a long time, despite the fact its on the verge of dying. DAoC did in fact have numerous dungeons, several expansions and you guessed it, realm vs. realm combat. Now, I love PvE as much as the next guy, but seriously, once you raid a dungeon, don't you find the mystery after going through it again a little... bland? I can't figure out how anyone can be entertained by playing a MMO version of chess, which is basically what dungeons are. You figure out the boss mechanics from trial and error and you make changes to your tactics till you defeat him. When you fight another human, even if its the same person/character, your battles are never the same. Sure, you know what abilities that player might have, but maybe he has a new trick up his sleeve. Now, if PvE ever evolves to AI that learns from players and builds from it, than yes, PvE will again take precedence over PvP. Until such a time, I don't expect to ever see another EQ type game for some time. For a moment, from what was said about Darkfall Online mobs having super AI that allowed them to build their own fortresses and even loot killed players and use what they find. I was thinking, FINALLY, someone who knows what they are doing. Then I find out it was not implemented and that wildlife in DFO is worse then it was in Shadowbane. Anyhow, let me know what it is about current PvE games that you don't like that you are in need of a new one?
While the claim that two pvp situation are not 100% the same seems to be true, that is really misleading. Fights are repetitive which is the real issue. Repetitive is boring no matter how well you try to sell it as something different every time. As the pulling something out of the blue it just doesn't sell. The vast majority of games have a limited set of skills, abilities or "magic" to pull out in a fight to make it that surprising.
The op is right and I've had the same feelings I've had for a long time. The pve genre as we've known it in the past is dying.
I like pvp occasionally but for it to be the endgame or focus of a mmorpg reeks of lazy development. Creating a pve game requires more creative effort than a pvp game.
For those folks complaining how can someone play a pve game without becoming tired of the same old raids....you can become tired of doing anything in any game. Alot of people expect a mmorpg to become a second life when a game should never be used in that manner. So they burn through content in a month then bitch forever after about the same old pve raids. You have only yourself to blame. Play in moderation.
Pvp is mostly running around ganking. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing someone else for whatever reason. Who plays pvp games to craft or quest? Pve games can have far more depth.
I've said this before: The instant gratification, "I'm scared to install hardware" and "I'm afraid to type", marathon deathmatch console crowd is destroying pc games for the rest of us.
Comments
I would not say AoC has not done well not because there isn't enough PvE content. There is actually a good bit (at least now) with well written quests and engaging NPCs that give you that "storybook" feel. I did not play AoC at launch, I waited til after they removed the head guy, then gave it a try. That's usually the best time to try a new product if it was previously stinky. I think it had too many problems at launch with techical issues mainly, but also because it tried to serve two masters.. PvE and PvP.
People wanted to chop each others heads off with fatalities but there were too many bugs and overpowered/underpoweredness. So that made the killing each other part very boring to most pvpers. The endgame is actually a very good concept for a PvP game (much better than WAR imo) as in WAR there really isn't a reason to fight other than watching blue and red bars creep up and down one side or the other. In Conan, your guild owns a city that you build with your own resources. There is pretty much the opportunity to live almost entirely in the guild city with NPCs and shops inside, while just attacking other guild's cities. You have much more incentive because your hard work YOU built can be destroyed if you allow it. Rivalries would happen simply because you don't like a particular group, and could change on a dime. And although there are no artificial factions as in WAR (me Order, you Destro.. I kill you) you could easily see an opportunity where several guilds could gang up on a super guild, only to later have a falling out... making the politics way more fun than just a two sided contest in typical PvP games.
Actually, both games tried to serve both crowds and that's why they failed thus far. WAR went Pvp heavy but had its premise in the endgame, which was horribly scarred and underpopulated. It was built as a "non-grind alternative" to WoW's PvE dungeons, but surprise.. gear driven loot grind; renown point grind. Their PvE is pretty bland by typical MMO standards, just not engaging at all which is a shame because you wonder how with a great IP to base it on. The NPC's are pretty much cardboarded decorations and the storyline is muddled except for "We hate Destro/Order" thing. You get the feeling that in the Warhammer world, there are only two factions and as any WAR tabletop fan knows, this is far from reality. AoC had the opposite problem, they put too much into the PvE side, and the pvp suffered. Now WAR is finally beginning to go through actual official server shutdowns due to the slow condition of the game, just as AoC had done.
Basically, with all the games I mentioned in the original post having PvP as endgame goals, I'm not asking for much on the NEW MMO front (to the guy who says what's wrong with what is out now). I merely ask that one company seize this opportunity to make a heavily based PvE game. Make all the pvp clones you like, just leave us dinos with one new MMO to run around in, without having to worry about the prospect of constantly worrying about action every five minutes because someone is lurking behind a tree. That is fun for the first hour, but after that, it really gets old.
"TO MICHAEL!"
This is pretty much my opinion, too. All of it. In fact, I wonder if the relative failure of WAR didn't send big time developers and investors running back to what they KNOW works. Also, of the games mentioned in the OP's first paragraph, how many have even heard of them? Maybe Aion, if they've played CoX or Guild Wars, two pretty big names in MMOs.
I have a feeling that most of us around here who scour the internet looking for something to play are a small minority of MMORPG players. Not many of the people I know who play WoW or EQ2 read these boards or even much beyond the official boards now and then. Almost none of them have ever even heard of Darkfall, or any those others.
I would not say AoC has not done well not because there isn't enough PvE content. There is actually a good bit (at least now)
I don't know. Almost a year after AoC's launch and they are just now about to release an update that will make it so there is enough content to make it to level cap without grinding. I think for a mainstream MMO, this example proves the point that pve content is on the decline since its seems almost unthinkable that at this late date a top tier MMO could release with so little content. AoC's failing was that they intended to rely on pvp, but it didn't work out so well. Perhaps if they had a robust pvp dynamic the game would be doing a lot better.
Any I think that the decline in MMO's is not of pve actually but more fundamentally, the idea of player as community is what is really being left behind in the new wave of MMO's. Whether they be based on pve or pvp, there aren't too many that are driven by the players. More and more MMO's are beginning to feel more like traditional standalone rpgs, with massive multiplayer support added.
Yes, PvE is dead. Why you ask? That's easy! Look at the huge success of the PvP Titles that have released thus far! It's easy to see that PvP is the way to go! Seriously though, as mentioned before, I think the companies are trying to get into a market that isn't yet dominated. PvE isn't going anywhere. Is a PvP MMORPG really and MMORPG? If it's all PvP, the storyline and RPing is exactly a big priority for the devs.
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
To the OP,you are 100% correct,i am just sorry it took you longer to notice than i did :P
The trend makes it easier for developers to whip out a game.The leveling from 1-whatever matters not anymore,players don't even play to enjoy the game,they want the end game level in one day if they could.Then they spend all their resources looking for whatever edge/advantage they can get over their opponents .As you can see this is quite a superficial way to game,it really is a waste of time and has ZERO to do with fun.The truth is ,that it is ONLY fun when they are winning,when they are losing it is a crap unbalanced system and they start to look for cheats or other means to be the winner.
IMO this is not what MMORPG's were about,it was suppose to be a place where players go to join up with other players and enjoy the content.The developers needed to perhaps create more guild content for their games and maybe tweak certain areas,but on a whole the system was in place and was a good one.
This end game PVP/Raiding takes the LEAST amount of effort to create ,but at the same time,it offers that "chase the carrot on the end of a stick" scenario and it seems to be working.Rather than create a bunch on content for players to get along and work together,they just create a boring world and tell the players to go out there and kill each other.This is not about HARDCORE or CAREBEAR anymore ,this is about as weak a gaming setup as you can create...lazy developers unite..i guess.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
While I agree with your pain that theres not really any good mmorpgs coming out lately, I have to disagree fully in the direction of the genre. I mean, sure we are going to get a whole plethora of pvp-based mmos coming out soon, but if you think about it its probably just a phase that this genre will have to go through... like the WoW craze in its first two years.
If anything this is a good thing for the genre becuase eventually it will have to "grow up" becuase someone somewhere will actually use the technology available these days to take mmorpgs to where they are supposed to be... for roleplaying, fun, and vast immersiveness. When I say "grow up" im saying that they will finally mesh pvp and pve together and make a proper roleplaying game with an immersive virtual world for you to roleplay in. It will have true conflict through roleplaying and not this fake conflict that the developers lay out for you. We will have an immersive virtual world.
One that can be worthy of the title "sandbox".
So just be patient like the rest of us jaded gamers. It will come soon.
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
The current reason that the MMOs that are PVP based haven't been doing well has been a combination of 2 things, level based and what I call the "Battlefield : XXX" syndrome.
I play EVE so I'm far from afraid of an open PVP world, but I agree it gets damn boring but when you have to deal with players that are higher level then you and there isn't anything you can do to enjoy the fight from the beginning. pvp games need to be skill based in a simliar method as EVE where its not level based in a skill based skin. Small amount of levels with an exponential increase of time to get to the higher levels. All characters should be able to compete and be used at all times together so you don't have the barren levels where your stuck fending for your self.
the "Battlefield: XXX" syndrome is what the current MMOs are doing for PVP. Instead of coming out with a style of PVP that fits well with a persistant world and thier storyline they instead l0ooked to FPS and shoehorned in thier game mechanics into the game. That why for the most part you get the Capture the flag, point control, etc. which to a big shock FPS do much better, which is why you get people saying i'd rather PVP in a FPS then a MMO... well no kidding.
You'll really start seeing PVP based games take off when they start making PVP soemthing that actually fits the game style. Sadly, it doesn't appear like that is going to happen anytime soon outside of EVE. So I have a feeling it will take a bit, but after this year is done with EVE expansions you might just start to see EVE take off and as such better PVP games may be in development.
I like a variety of it all PvP & PVE. Me personally loved DAOC I thought it had it all. But I am open to anything to me a pvp only game would be more like FPS game, but using swords or whatever it may be. Those are fun and great, but I do get bored with it. So I really think a true MMO needs it all, a good balance of it all. Why I don't play WOW. I was really surprised WOW did as good as it did cause it was very PVE heavy, but that is what sold and they did great.
Or do you think PVE dying cause of the younger generation? I mean the lack of attention span? As posted before, you see now people go into these new games and seems like they just want to get to the endgame the fastest, you always see them post oh look I am the first 50 or whatever it may be. People don't seem to take the time to play the game I feel.
While I agree with your pain that theres not really any good mmorpgs coming out lately, I have to disagree fully in the direction of the genre. I mean, sure we are going to get a whole plethora of pvp-based mmos coming out soon, but if you think about it its probably just a phase that this genre will have to go through... like the WoW craze in its first two years.
If anything this is a good thing for the genre becuase eventually it will have to "grow up" becuase someone somewhere will actually use the technology available these days to take mmorpgs to where they are supposed to be... for roleplaying, fun, and vast immersiveness. When I say "grow up" im saying that they will finally mesh pvp and pve together and make a proper roleplaying game with an immersive virtual world for you to roleplay in. It will have true conflict through roleplaying and not this fake conflict that the developers lay out for you. We will have an immersive virtual world.
One that can be worthy of the title "sandbox".
So just be patient like the rest of us jaded gamers. It will come soon.
Just my two cents.
Yea, I think the near future is fairly grim but it's not a permanent switch. WoW isn't a game anymore I think, it's like a culture lol. I'm basically going to stay back on MMOs for a while, I might give one or two a try every few months or so but I'm generally waiting for GW2. I think it's the xbox for now and maybe RTS' on my PC.
We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.
mmos that are 90% pvp always fail if they are new they where fun years ago when they first came out and it was new but now look at war it was good at first but then people got bored to hell and now its a desert and people who think pvp is popular now because of darkfall that only has 7k people playing it at the mom is fail aswell
For years they promise this that npc's could build there own fotresses and loot players TASOS on many occasions gave dev talks about this explaining how they looked at oblivion and improved much on AI and mobs could do this.
He also told us that mobs when attacked in dugeons just follow you out of dugeon if you try escape also not true.
Now it seems all a lie and mobs AI is not bad but there easy to exploit and they surely dont loot you or have own lives as oblivion had.
And world is indeed very empty, ofcorse maybe later they can implement more but the game is a fraction of what they have promised:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Yes exactly. What we are seeing is just what happens when one side has dominated the market for some years. When I was on the Spellborn forums all the time in 2006 or so, some people were whining on how ALL the games that were out and were coming out were strongly focused on PvE.
We want PvP, we want PvP! So up and coming companies were like okay we're going to make games with a strong focus on PvP. And now all those games are coming out.
That does not mean PvE is dead, all it means is you can expect an influx of PvE games in the future.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Actually you are completely incorrect.
The plethora of PvP games is more about a backlash (though perhaps not so dramatic) to all the PvE games that are out.
then the PvP market will end up like the PvE market now and there will be another backlash and you will see more PvE mmo's. Rinse and repeat.
This happens all throughout our history. Take music. There is a growing of complexity until it reaches some sort of apex of complexit and all of a sudden the music changes to more simple elements and then grows again with experimentation. Same with Art.
That is how the history of human creativity seems to work.
However, I also think it's been shown that every game needs some semblance of both to really be successful. It's just how each type of game play will be weighted over time that will change.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just my two cents.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
This
With so many new MMOs failing to break any new ground, why not continue to enjoy what we have until something truly new comes along?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
I say good ridance.
My blog:
I for one am glad PvP games are coming back, so many games recently have been geared for a younger audience, and while they are fun and have their moments nothing is like rush you get after fighting someone and being able to claim your prize. every pvp encounter is like a boss raid, cause you never know what sweet gear your going to get next! I played asherons call darktide server and eq1 its brutal, getting ganked at lvl 5. lvling up is much more rewarding. there is so much to lose and so much to gain, its always exciting and keep you on your toes! i know its not everyones cup o tea but its mine and a good pvp game is long overdue. no more battlegrounds or arenas preset castle seiges. let build an empire defend it and take other peoples!
I still have faith in the PvE aspect, my faith is placed in Square Enix's new MMO. An RPG company making an MMORPG thats why I have faith. Keep tuned in at this years June E3. Dont be shocked if its out by Q4 this year either since they have been working on it for a 4-5 years nows. And SE likes to keep things secret until its on the virge of release.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I often like reading the things you post and this was no exception. You put some good well written stuff down here and gave me some good food for thought. However I view things differently. You seem to view the old PvE game design as being something that game designers should hold onto while I think it is definately something which should be moved away from........as fast as possible!!
Just my two cents.
I really like everything you said there. I totally agree with every word of it. Count me as a new fan ;-)
Well, it's nice to know I'm completely incorrect. I really hate to do anything half baked.
The endgame PvP games that are releasing this year are not coming out as some 'reactionary force to the status quo'. The MMO market has nothing to do with ideologies... its about gaming and what companies think they can sell for the least amount of capital outlay.
Companies know that they can make a PvE based game anytime, but that requires a TON of writing, questing and dungeon designing, artists, etc. This process takes infinitely longer than say, whipping up a "Capture the Flag" scenario in a PvP mmo and is FAR cheaper too. Nothing really tough about maintaining "zone flipping" once the simple mechanic is in place, nor is it revolutionary. You really don't need an immersive world for a PvP player. Design your instance or zone, you can even paint it on and it doesn't matter. It's not like a typical pvper will really look around and go notice how the water or clouds are moving, or think "Wow, those trees are amazing!" They are too busy watching for the zerg. They are not interested in an immersive experience, by and large.
PvP games are coming out because as has been said in this thread, far cheaper and easier to maintain. It gives the company vastly improved return on their investments and further "updates" don't require much manpower.
"TO MICHAEL!"
First off, I didn't really understand if the OP meant WoW PvE "endgame"...4 hour raids...or if he meant story-driven, possibly quest-oriented PvE. Anyways, if he meant the raiding, I don't see why he's promoting it. Very few people actually enjoy it, but in a game like WoW, they're made to enjoy it because that's the best path to the best gear. By all means, if someone comes up with a slightly different template for raiding and doesn't make it mandatory, that's great.
Neon - I think you're right, except I think that the idea of everyone's actions affecting the game world won't appear in MMOs...without instances, of course. MMOs could take an AoC Tortage approach for the entire game I suppose, but still, everyone running around being the "Chosen One" really makes them all the same.
Completely agree with you
In LOTRO - originally there was no plan for PVP. Than they added kind of PVP called monster play.
They promised that they will never nerf player class to balance PVP.
Yet monster play grew in popularity. And notable PVE class - Burglar - became to powerful. Because its Stealth class.
So it was nerfed...
Now , stealth was never problem in PVE. Its simple gameplay choice. Its fun for people that like it. And its never overpowered in PVE.
But burglars got so nerfed - they fall into least wanted class. Nobody plays them anymore.
And this is how PVP punished players that never wanted PVP and therefore choose PVE game.
While the claim that two pvp situation are not 100% the same seems to be true, that is really misleading. Fights are repetitive which is the real issue. Repetitive is boring no matter how well you try to sell it as something different every time. As the pulling something out of the blue it just doesn't sell. The vast majority of games have a limited set of skills, abilities or "magic" to pull out in a fight to make it that surprising.
The op is right and I've had the same feelings I've had for a long time. The pve genre as we've known it in the past is dying.
I like pvp occasionally but for it to be the endgame or focus of a mmorpg reeks of lazy development. Creating a pve game requires more creative effort than a pvp game.
For those folks complaining how can someone play a pve game without becoming tired of the same old raids....you can become tired of doing anything in any game. Alot of people expect a mmorpg to become a second life when a game should never be used in that manner. So they burn through content in a month then bitch forever after about the same old pve raids. You have only yourself to blame. Play in moderation.
Pvp is mostly running around ganking. Call it what you will but it all crumbles down into killing someone else for whatever reason. Who plays pvp games to craft or quest? Pve games can have far more depth.
I've said this before: The instant gratification, "I'm scared to install hardware" and "I'm afraid to type", marathon deathmatch console crowd is destroying pc games for the rest of us.