Originally posted by Josher Originally posted by TdogSkal Originally posted by Ilvaldyr Originally posted by protoroc Yet forced raiding is acceptable? Show me one game where you can advance your character solo past level cap. Easy; WoW. In WoW, advancing your character is synonymous with improving your gear .. and there are a multitude of ways that the solo player can accomplish this without having to go a-raiding. You have crafting, heroic 5-mans, badges/tokens, reputation rewards and PvP/Arena .. all of which can be done by non-raiders. Not to mention that it's now much easier to access raiding content as a casual gamer due to the decrease in raid sizes and the low entry-level gear-check.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players. Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't. Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference. In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
But people don't want to use the same robe forever. You may enjoy it, but the vast majority finds that boring.
Just because gear isn't the "goal" of the game, just because gear isn't the only difference between whether you win or lose does NOT mean you automatically have to be stuck with the same gear. Gear also has aesthetic value. Ever found a weapon that looked really cool but the stats sucked? What if the stats didn't matter? Then you could go and pursue that cool looking weapon without judgement
Also, the simple fact of winning is not reward enough either.
Actually for a lot of people that's all the reward you need.
Considering the preponderance of FAQs and walkthroughs, the simple act of beating a boss isn't as hard as it used to be, since you dont' have to figure it our yourself anymore. Why figure it out yourself when you can view a step by step detailed FAQ that everyone else is using? There are very few that would want to figure it all out themselves. These people are normally on the test servers creating the FAQs in the first place=)
Most people I know actually do like to figure things out for themselves. But as you said, there is almost always a guide or a walkthrough, so if you don't want to figure it out yourself, use one of those.
Bosses in EQ could've been downed pretty fast if people had access to the notes from guilds on a test server. That stuff didn't happen back in 1999. Its par for the course now. Its not that those bosses were harder. They were simple tank and spank for the most part. The info just didn't flow like it does now. No cheating back then;)
As I've already said, I love grouping as long as I don't have to wait for 2 hours to get one, but an MMO has to have some good soloing content if it's going to survive because finding a group will always be just difficult enough that some players won't want to engage in it. If gear dependency is decreased, I believe that will improve current MMOs. As long as people don't screw up the end game by making it so you have nothing to do after hitting max level.
Yet forced raiding is acceptable? Show me one game where you can advance your character solo past level cap.
Easy; WoW.
In WoW, advancing your character is synonymous with improving your gear .. and there are a multitude of ways that the solo player can accomplish this without having to go a-raiding. You have crafting, heroic 5-mans, badges/tokens, reputation rewards and PvP/Arena .. all of which can be done by non-raiders.
Not to mention that it's now much easier to access raiding content as a casual gamer due to the decrease in raid sizes and the low entry-level gear-check.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
But people don't want to use the same robe forever. You may enjoy it, but the vast majority finds that boring.
Just because gear isn't the "goal" of the game, just because gear isn't the only difference between whether you win or lose does NOT mean you automatically have to be stuck with the same gear. Gear also has aesthetic value. Ever found a weapon that looked really cool but the stats sucked? What if the stats didn't matter? Then you could go and pursue that cool looking weapon without judgement
Also, the simple fact of winning is not reward enough either.
Actually for a lot of people that's all the reward you need.
Considering the preponderance of FAQs and walkthroughs, the simple act of beating a boss isn't as hard as it used to be, since you dont' have to figure it our yourself anymore. Why figure it out yourself when you can view a step by step detailed FAQ that everyone else is using? There are very few that would want to figure it all out themselves. These people are normally on the test servers creating the FAQs in the first place=)
Most people I know actually do like to figure things out for themselves. But as you said, there is almost always a guide or a walkthrough, so if you don't want to figure it out yourself, use one of those.
Bosses in EQ could've been downed pretty fast if people had access to the notes from guilds on a test server. That stuff didn't happen back in 1999. Its par for the course now. Its not that those bosses were harder. They were simple tank and spank for the most part. The info just didn't flow like it does now. No cheating back then;)
As I've already said, I love grouping as long as I don't have to wait for 2 hours to get one, but an MMO has to have some good soloing content if it's going to survive because finding a group will always be just difficult enough that some players won't want to engage in it. If gear dependency is decreased, I believe that will improve current MMOs. As long as people don't screw up the end game by making it so you have nothing to do after hitting max level.
That is why I love the AA system in EQ1, I still had a ton of things to work for.
The real problem is the community game design. Ability to solo should be available....but at the expense of leveling and earning less than grouping.
WOW is a perfect example.....in order to let EVERYONE solo they had to give character types that aren't known for dealing damage (healers, hybrids, tanks) the ability to deal damage. As a result, support classes needed to keep damage dealers alive in groups are never available. Most tank classes are specialized in not tanking and most healers are specialized in not healing. Hybrid classes that can go either way are almost always specialized in doing damage.....so that they can solo their way through at their own pace.
I've been playing WOW for 2-3 years and I can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my clan......in my own faction let alone in the opposing faction. Lineage 2 (for all its faults) was non instanced and heavily group dependent.....and for that I knew the names of all my enemies and friends. When you saw one of the top baddies pop up on the screen, your heart starts going and adrenealine gets pumping. As many problems as Lineage 2 had, everyone stayed with the game as long as they did ONLY because of the community.
In WOW, when people in a group say something to you, they call you by your class not your name. (Mage make some water....Cow, give me MOTW.....Tank hold aggro better....Rogue, sap that guy over there). The only way you know your in for a good fight is if you can see what kind of gear the other guy has.....not what his name or PvP reputation is. And as a result....its really easy to walk away.
IMO, soloing in an mmo in the first place is fail. I think they were named "massively multiplayer" back in the day for a reason. You misunderstand what MMO is. It means more than 1 people playing in this game. There is difference between MMO and grouping. MMO doesn't means it HAVE TO group for the game in order to advance. Like for example, Asheron's Call.. tell me why this game is so successful and its basically solo game. It has great contempt, fellowship in dungeon for more exp is far more fun than doing quest exp grind. Because that way is more relaxing and social and more funner that way. Hardly any quest to turn in for exp.
I've been playing WOW for 2-3 years and I can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my clan......in my own faction let alone in the opposing faction. Lineage 2 (for all its faults) was non instanced and heavily group dependent.....and for that I knew the names of all my enemies and friends. When you saw one of the top baddies pop up on the screen, your heart starts going and adrenealine gets pumping. As many problems as Lineage 2 had, everyone stayed with the game as long as they did ONLY because of the community.
There's truth to that. Though I also enjoyed the game play that L2 offered.
But I have noticed that in games such as WoW or LOTRO, it's more about the task at hand and less about dealing with the people at hand.
Oh sure, if you are great at what your do (or poor) and are active in getting pick up groups then some people will know your name.
But in a game like L2, it's all about the people. The game IS the people. And the clans and alliances. These are more than just groups for getting groups. They are the people who have your back, who you fight for, who you drop what you are doing because they are in a tight spot.
However, I am not denegrating games like WoW or LOTRO becuase they have thier place. They offer a different type of game play experience.
After all, not everyone enjoys watching their back or "getting the adrenaline going". To many that is not fun. So they do allow for a different type of game play for different type of people.
However, as there are more people who are looking for games like WoW or LOTRO what they offer will seep into other games in order to get/maintain subscriptions.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I dont get this, if most of you want to solo then why dont you play a singelplayer game, if grouping is a waste of time and just a pain i dont get why you like mmorpgs, to talk to others? its vent for that or msn. You want to be alone all the time untill you reach end game and just go and do the same raids over and over again. Thats just boring. its fine if you guys like that kind of gameplay but the mmos isent going to change if you are demanding the same sort of solo play untill you reach the top games.
I like grouping, i like to fight for something with others. Maby thats why i play DDO so i can get that feeling that every player has an important role to play and we are having fun toghter.
I like wow before the expansions when you did the dungeons with a group and leveled toghter, not to solo to 70 to find ppl to do stuff with.
Im sorry but cant see my self sitting at my computer and grinding my way to the top all by my self. Weres the fun in that? I can say that will not make me laugh or smile. If i dont have a guild that i can talk to. But even then , most of the players are higher or lower then you and you will not do anything together untill you reach the endgame.
Sure sometime it might be fun to solo and do stuff but not 90 % of the game, not 40 of the 60 or 70 lvls. Dont you guys play the game for the endgame stuff anyways? wouldent it be fun to have endgame like things from the start?
I dont get this, if most of you want to solo then why dont you play a singelplayer game, if grouping is a waste of time and just a pain i dont get why you like mmorpgs, to talk to others? its vent for that or msn. You want to be alone all the time untill you reach end game and just go and do the same raids over and over again. Thats just boring. its fine if you guys like that kind of gameplay but the mmos isent going to change if you are demanding the same sort of solo play untill you reach the top games. I like grouping, i like to fight for something with others. Maby thats why i play DDO so i can get that feeling that every player has an important role to play and we are having fun toghter. I like wow before the expansions when you did the dungeons with a group and leveled toghter, not to solo to 70 to find ppl to do stuff with. Im sorry but cant see my self sitting at my computer and grinding my way to the top all by my self. Weres the fun in that? I can say that will not make me laugh or smile. If i dont have a guild that i can talk to. But even then , most of the players are higher or lower then you and you will not do anything together untill you reach the endgame. Sure sometime it might be fun to solo and do stuff but not 90 % of the game, not 40 of the 60 or 70 lvls. Dont you guys play the game for the endgame stuff anyways? wouldent it be fun to have endgame like things from the start?
Its called Fellowship when you want to solo things but party for more exp in same area. It doesn't matter where you are in dungeon, still share the exp. I rather explore and go whereever i want to go in dungeon than staying with party in 1 same boring spot.
EDIT: That way there is no hassle for sharing loots, hassle for replacing certain class member for party, or someone sucks in party. You can go anytime you want, doesn't affect anyone in party at all. I MUCH rather this than grouping fighting 1 mob at a time, or quest exp.
This Soloing System isnt problem at all. Its the grouping mainly. Because you might have to waste many mintes or few hours trying to find a party, which is very discouraging to play anymore. Soloing, no hassle and you do whatever you want and nothing stops you from waiting. I'm just comparing those 2 soloing and grouping. I'm not saying grouping is bad, I'm just giving point of view.
Another problem is Balance of classes. People always look for "Overpower" class in EVERY game. It doesn't give u much choice to play which one you want. Which is why I think all class should have the same skill, just different radical and character customize. And you build skills from there. And of course for example, Mage and Swordman type, both should be balance in killing speed no matter what skill they use.
Finally, another problem is choices, skills, and freedom.
I think this pretty much cover for this thread topic.
Originally posted by protoroc Yet forced raiding is acceptable? Show me one game where you can advance your character solo past level cap. Easy; WoW. In WoW, advancing your character is synonymous with improving your gear .. and there are a multitude of ways that the solo player can accomplish this without having to go a-raiding. You have crafting, heroic 5-mans, badges/tokens, reputation rewards and PvP/Arena .. all of which can be done by non-raiders. Not to mention that it's now much easier to access raiding content as a casual gamer due to the decrease in raid sizes and the low entry-level gear-check.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
I agree with everything you have said, I couldn't say it better myself.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Originally posted by protoroc Yet forced raiding is acceptable? Show me one game where you can advance your character solo past level cap. Easy; WoW. In WoW, advancing your character is synonymous with improving your gear .. and there are a multitude of ways that the solo player can accomplish this without having to go a-raiding. You have crafting, heroic 5-mans, badges/tokens, reputation rewards and PvP/Arena .. all of which can be done by non-raiders. Not to mention that it's now much easier to access raiding content as a casual gamer due to the decrease in raid sizes and the low entry-level gear-check.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
I agree with everything you have said, I couldn't say it better myself.
Yes, you are correct... gear should be bonus. Only that matters is how much experince in certain field of skills.
I completely agree. I'm playing Atlantis Online and I am finding myself a bit bored because it doesn't seem like a true to heart MMORPG. It fails at the basic stuff. I'm looking for a new game to get into that's an MMO. I heard about this one game Dragonica, but haven't played it yet. I'm going to check it out. Has anyone else played it yet?
Until then, I think I'm going back to playing SOCOM and Counter-Strike. CS 1.6 is competative, but Source is so much more fun. lol
Comments
Double post glitch.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
But people don't want to use the same robe forever. You may enjoy it, but the vast majority finds that boring.
Just because gear isn't the "goal" of the game, just because gear isn't the only difference between whether you win or lose does NOT mean you automatically have to be stuck with the same gear. Gear also has aesthetic value. Ever found a weapon that looked really cool but the stats sucked? What if the stats didn't matter? Then you could go and pursue that cool looking weapon without judgement
Also, the simple fact of winning is not reward enough either.
Actually for a lot of people that's all the reward you need.
Considering the preponderance of FAQs and walkthroughs, the simple act of beating a boss isn't as hard as it used to be, since you dont' have to figure it our yourself anymore. Why figure it out yourself when you can view a step by step detailed FAQ that everyone else is using? There are very few that would want to figure it all out themselves. These people are normally on the test servers creating the FAQs in the first place=)
Most people I know actually do like to figure things out for themselves. But as you said, there is almost always a guide or a walkthrough, so if you don't want to figure it out yourself, use one of those.
Bosses in EQ could've been downed pretty fast if people had access to the notes from guilds on a test server. That stuff didn't happen back in 1999. Its par for the course now. Its not that those bosses were harder. They were simple tank and spank for the most part. The info just didn't flow like it does now. No cheating back then;)
As I've already said, I love grouping as long as I don't have to wait for 2 hours to get one, but an MMO has to have some good soloing content if it's going to survive because finding a group will always be just difficult enough that some players won't want to engage in it. If gear dependency is decreased, I believe that will improve current MMOs. As long as people don't screw up the end game by making it so you have nothing to do after hitting max level.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
But people don't want to use the same robe forever. You may enjoy it, but the vast majority finds that boring.
Just because gear isn't the "goal" of the game, just because gear isn't the only difference between whether you win or lose does NOT mean you automatically have to be stuck with the same gear. Gear also has aesthetic value. Ever found a weapon that looked really cool but the stats sucked? What if the stats didn't matter? Then you could go and pursue that cool looking weapon without judgement
Also, the simple fact of winning is not reward enough either.
Actually for a lot of people that's all the reward you need.
Considering the preponderance of FAQs and walkthroughs, the simple act of beating a boss isn't as hard as it used to be, since you dont' have to figure it our yourself anymore. Why figure it out yourself when you can view a step by step detailed FAQ that everyone else is using? There are very few that would want to figure it all out themselves. These people are normally on the test servers creating the FAQs in the first place=)
Most people I know actually do like to figure things out for themselves. But as you said, there is almost always a guide or a walkthrough, so if you don't want to figure it out yourself, use one of those.
Bosses in EQ could've been downed pretty fast if people had access to the notes from guilds on a test server. That stuff didn't happen back in 1999. Its par for the course now. Its not that those bosses were harder. They were simple tank and spank for the most part. The info just didn't flow like it does now. No cheating back then;)
As I've already said, I love grouping as long as I don't have to wait for 2 hours to get one, but an MMO has to have some good soloing content if it's going to survive because finding a group will always be just difficult enough that some players won't want to engage in it. If gear dependency is decreased, I believe that will improve current MMOs. As long as people don't screw up the end game by making it so you have nothing to do after hitting max level.
That is why I love the AA system in EQ1, I still had a ton of things to work for.
Sooner or Later
The real problem is the community game design. Ability to solo should be available....but at the expense of leveling and earning less than grouping.
WOW is a perfect example.....in order to let EVERYONE solo they had to give character types that aren't known for dealing damage (healers, hybrids, tanks) the ability to deal damage. As a result, support classes needed to keep damage dealers alive in groups are never available. Most tank classes are specialized in not tanking and most healers are specialized in not healing. Hybrid classes that can go either way are almost always specialized in doing damage.....so that they can solo their way through at their own pace.
I've been playing WOW for 2-3 years and I can't tell you the name of a single person outside of my clan......in my own faction let alone in the opposing faction. Lineage 2 (for all its faults) was non instanced and heavily group dependent.....and for that I knew the names of all my enemies and friends. When you saw one of the top baddies pop up on the screen, your heart starts going and adrenealine gets pumping. As many problems as Lineage 2 had, everyone stayed with the game as long as they did ONLY because of the community.
In WOW, when people in a group say something to you, they call you by your class not your name. (Mage make some water....Cow, give me MOTW.....Tank hold aggro better....Rogue, sap that guy over there). The only way you know your in for a good fight is if you can see what kind of gear the other guy has.....not what his name or PvP reputation is. And as a result....its really easy to walk away.
Kain_Dale
There's truth to that. Though I also enjoyed the game play that L2 offered.
But I have noticed that in games such as WoW or LOTRO, it's more about the task at hand and less about dealing with the people at hand.
Oh sure, if you are great at what your do (or poor) and are active in getting pick up groups then some people will know your name.
But in a game like L2, it's all about the people. The game IS the people. And the clans and alliances. These are more than just groups for getting groups. They are the people who have your back, who you fight for, who you drop what you are doing because they are in a tight spot.
However, I am not denegrating games like WoW or LOTRO becuase they have thier place. They offer a different type of game play experience.
After all, not everyone enjoys watching their back or "getting the adrenaline going". To many that is not fun. So they do allow for a different type of game play for different type of people.
However, as there are more people who are looking for games like WoW or LOTRO what they offer will seep into other games in order to get/maintain subscriptions.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I dont get this, if most of you want to solo then why dont you play a singelplayer game, if grouping is a waste of time and just a pain i dont get why you like mmorpgs, to talk to others? its vent for that or msn. You want to be alone all the time untill you reach end game and just go and do the same raids over and over again. Thats just boring. its fine if you guys like that kind of gameplay but the mmos isent going to change if you are demanding the same sort of solo play untill you reach the top games.
I like grouping, i like to fight for something with others. Maby thats why i play DDO so i can get that feeling that every player has an important role to play and we are having fun toghter.
I like wow before the expansions when you did the dungeons with a group and leveled toghter, not to solo to 70 to find ppl to do stuff with.
Im sorry but cant see my self sitting at my computer and grinding my way to the top all by my self. Weres the fun in that? I can say that will not make me laugh or smile. If i dont have a guild that i can talk to. But even then , most of the players are higher or lower then you and you will not do anything together untill you reach the endgame.
Sure sometime it might be fun to solo and do stuff but not 90 % of the game, not 40 of the 60 or 70 lvls. Dont you guys play the game for the endgame stuff anyways? wouldent it be fun to have endgame like things from the start?
Its called Fellowship when you want to solo things but party for more exp in same area. It doesn't matter where you are in dungeon, still share the exp. I rather explore and go whereever i want to go in dungeon than staying with party in 1 same boring spot.
EDIT: That way there is no hassle for sharing loots, hassle for replacing certain class member for party, or someone sucks in party. You can go anytime you want, doesn't affect anyone in party at all. I MUCH rather this than grouping fighting 1 mob at a time, or quest exp.
This Soloing System isnt problem at all. Its the grouping mainly. Because you might have to waste many mintes or few hours trying to find a party, which is very discouraging to play anymore. Soloing, no hassle and you do whatever you want and nothing stops you from waiting. I'm just comparing those 2 soloing and grouping. I'm not saying grouping is bad, I'm just giving point of view.
Another problem is Balance of classes. People always look for "Overpower" class in EVERY game. It doesn't give u much choice to play which one you want. Which is why I think all class should have the same skill, just different radical and character customize. And you build skills from there. And of course for example, Mage and Swordman type, both should be balance in killing speed no matter what skill they use.
Finally, another problem is choices, skills, and freedom.
I think this pretty much cover for this thread topic.
Kain_Dale
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
I agree with everything you have said, I couldn't say it better myself.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
RIGHT there, that is it. That is the problem with today's MMO players.
Advancing your character has nothing to do with improving your gear or atleast it shouldn't.
Gear should be a bonus not a goal. Gear should not be that important, it should help but it should not make a huge difference.
In EQ1, i used the same robe on my necromancer for god knows how long. Gear was a bonus, not a goal, if I got an upgrade sweet, if not no big deal, beating the event/raid/boss was the reward.
I agree with everything you have said, I couldn't say it better myself.
Yes, you are correct... gear should be bonus. Only that matters is how much experince in certain field of skills.
Kain_Dale
I completely agree. I'm playing Atlantis Online and I am finding myself a bit bored because it doesn't seem like a true to heart MMORPG. It fails at the basic stuff. I'm looking for a new game to get into that's an MMO. I heard about this one game Dragonica, but haven't played it yet. I'm going to check it out. Has anyone else played it yet?
Until then, I think I'm going back to playing SOCOM and Counter-Strike. CS 1.6 is competative, but Source is so much more fun. lol