Oh I'm sorry. I forget that if no one plays a game its obviously BETTER and not cheap. Here's a little secret, WOW is not food. WOW is fast AND its slow,, its casual AND its hardcore. Kids play, adults play it AND MMO vets play it. Nerds play it AND normal people play it. Until some of you elitist nuckleheads get it through your thick skulls that WOW's quality is unquestionable, all your problems will be solved. No MMO is forced to copy WOW. Not a one. If they need a million customers to keep the game running, then they wll have to offer a higher quality game that offers more modes of play than something like Darkfall or Pirates that caters to only 1 niche group. I'm so sorry that some of you are so enlightened and above the rest of the dregs of gamers out there because you find old style gameplay appealing. I'm so sorry you need to be punished constantly to feel like your gametime is meaningful and worthwhile. I'm so sorry you feel cheated by the masses. I'm so sorry the genre has been stolen away from your pale, bony or extremely plump, expert MMo fingers. I'm so sorry you're upset that the genre has in your eyes, taken a turn for the worse even though every sign proves otherwise. Without WOW the genre would be dominated by EQ2 right now and what a sad state of affairs we'd be in. Considering how quickly EQ2 was dominated by WOW, how can anyone with any sense claim the genre is spiraling downward? Without WOW the genre would hardly have moved. Darkfall or Pirates or Dark & Light or Tabula Rasa would actually be considered quality titles if WOW never existed. How sad would we be if people were actually praising those? Some of you call WOW crap or cheap. Obviously you're living in an alternate universe where quality is judged by how FEW people play a game instead of how many. Critical acclaim means nothing and obsurity is a sign of quality. What a backwards way to judge games. I'm not saying being obsure means a game is bad, but in most cases when it comes to MMOs it does. If loads of people want to pay a fee every month to play a game when there are LOADS of alternatives, theres nothing crappy or bad about it. There will still be hardcore MMOs out there for people to enjoy. But don't blame AAA developers for not catering to a small niche. Too much money is being invested for them to appease YOU GUYS. A AAA developer has no interest in being niche or obsure. Thats what the indy titles are there for. To appease those elitists. Don't worry. Us normal guys won't be inflitrating YOUR games. You can have them.
Sometimes a post comes along that is simply amazing.
OP and some others: reread the blue (or better yet the entire post).
You must be living in a world, where "conformism", "generalisations" and "not getting the point" are amazing.
I'll repeat myself. WoW is a gorgeous nuclear missle, that could bring orgasmic death to the genre. That is all.
Popular =/= Good. Otherwiose Linkin Park or Britney Spears would be considered masterpieces.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Popular =/= Good. Otherwiose Linkin Park or Britney Spears would be considered masterpieces.
"Masterpiece" has rarely ever had anything to do with 'good' 'successful' or 'profitable'. Blizzard made a high quality, stable and fun game. Those seem like the right targets to aim for, no?
Do not confuse art with product - there are very different goals in creating both.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
according to that logic, every resturaunt in the country should be serving Big Macs...in fact they would be foolish not to, right?? There's just one flaw to that..some chefs prefer to make a quality product, and let the mass market be damned. Cheap, fast and easy =/= better.
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
And that's why EVERY resturaunt is McD's right??
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game.
Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking....
By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
WoW was fun.Blizzard didn't try and reinvent fun they took a look around said those things are fun how can we put them together and build on them. Most mmos are interested in fulfilling a vision or distinguishing themselves rather than making a fun game. Its the cynical reality of MMO developer mentality as I have seen it.
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
Oh I'm sorry. I forget that if no one plays a game its obviously BETTER and not cheap. Here's a little secret, WOW is not food. WOW is fast AND its slow,, its casual AND its hardcore. Kids play, adults play it AND MMO vets play it. Nerds play it AND normal people play it. Until some of you elitist nuckleheads get it through your thick skulls that WOW's quality is unquestionable, all your problems will be solved. No MMO is forced to copy WOW. Not a one. If they need a million customers to keep the game running, then they wll have to offer a higher quality game that offers more modes of play than something like Darkfall or Pirates that caters to only 1 niche group. I'm so sorry that some of you are so enlightened and above the rest of the dregs of gamers out there because you find old style gameplay appealing. I'm so sorry you need to be punished constantly to feel like your gametime is meaningful and worthwhile. I'm so sorry you feel cheated by the masses. I'm so sorry the genre has been stolen away from your pale, bony or extremely plump, expert MMo fingers. I'm so sorry you're upset that the genre has in your eyes, taken a turn for the worse even though every sign proves otherwise. Without WOW the genre would be dominated by EQ2 right now and what a sad state of affairs we'd be in. Considering how quickly EQ2 was dominated by WOW, how can anyone with any sense claim the genre is spiraling downward? Without WOW the genre would hardly have moved. Darkfall or Pirates or Dark & Light or Tabula Rasa would actually be considered quality titles if WOW never existed. How sad would we be if people were actually praising those? Some of you call WOW crap or cheap. Obviously you're living in an alternate universe where quality is judged by how FEW people play a game instead of how many. Critical acclaim means nothing and obsurity is a sign of quality. What a backwards way to judge games. I'm not saying being obsure means a game is bad, but in most cases when it comes to MMOs it does. If loads of people want to pay a fee every month to play a game when there are LOADS of alternatives, theres nothing crappy or bad about it. There will still be hardcore MMOs out there for people to enjoy. But don't blame AAA developers for not catering to a small niche. Too much money is being invested for them to appease YOU GUYS. A AAA developer has no interest in being niche or obsure. Thats what the indy titles are there for. To appease those elitists. Don't worry. Us normal guys won't be inflitrating YOUR games. You can have them.
Damn man, I was all kinda with you on this post until I hit the first "obsurity", which I figured you simply missed the C on your keyboard. The second one made me chuckle, and the third one just made me sad. It's obscure Other than that, you pretty well hit the nail on the head (and gave me some lulz with the spelling).
Anyway, some excellent points have been made in this thread pointing at players' cycles of return to WoW. Yes, WoW's a great game (that'll I'll never return to - seriously) and it is a very high quality product. However, at the point that players get bored and WANT to move on, and even TRY to move on, it's an extremely difficult move for most. Plenty of folks won't move on without their buddies/family/significant others. Those who try don't last long without their social networks, and I can't agree more with the fella that said a lot of it chalks up to "why bother". It's tough to leave behind a well-established character that's max level and has great gear. People spend hundreds to thousands of hours on their WoW toons (another testament to WoW - there's content to burn that much time on) while spending that time with people whose company they enjoy. That's a TOUGH thing to just stand up and walk away from. That simultaneously makes it that much harder for a new game to draw in new players.
Another fine point's been made in that people DO try other games then just go back. Read above. Sure, there's been some rather serious flops and horrid launches in recent memory, but not every game released is garbage. They just don't have the mass appeal of WoW, and that's OK. As long as those games pick enough people up for the ride they wanted and can stay afloat while doing so, more power to them. A recent thread on these boards says it far better than I can on why I hope there never is an actual WoW killer. I don't hate WoW just because I don't want to play it anymore. I don't hate WoW because it's the most popular thing in gaming since 3D graphics, either. The Big Mac comparison just doesn't really hold water. There's really not even any reason for the animosity towards the damn game other than that it has cause some extremely flawed WoW clones, but devs can see those failures and will (hopefully) avoid them at all costs, thus increasing the quality of future products. It's just a matter of time before the proper game comes along and snatches each of us up for the ride we want. After all, competition is what forces better products, and WoW has set the bar high, and I'm not even talking about subscription numbers.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
I apologize if my comparison of Blizzard to a monopoly through so many people (and this thread) into a tail spin followed by a nose-dive. It's not literal. The literal definition of a monopoly means they are the sole provider of a particular good or service. Now obviously there are plenty of OTHER companies who provide the same serive (MMORPGs). But the numbers are still growing for WoW and shrinking for the competition. Taking this into consideration and a loose definition of the word monopoly I still feel it applies. Now people are saying that of course a company is motivated by profit and will continue offering the best services for the lowest price to stay competitive. But a monopoly is formed through this pursuit of profit knocking off competitors whether through services, quality, quantity or other questionable actions. The open marketplace makes it VERY possible for monopolies to exist, hence the reason why the government has to become involved from time to time.
So yes, a monopoly is born out of a product that dwarves their competitors to the point where no one will even bother trying to compete anymore... Whether on purpose or not, the social aspect of WoW and sheer addictiveness of MMORPGs in general makes it a perfect candidate. Not that I'm some market or economics guru... just seems to be a possibility.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Originally posted by Goronian It's not the fact, that people bounce. It's the fact, that people bounce, and then still return to WoW. There's a reason for that; it's actually a very fun game if you're an average player. It's important to define what the average player is at this point; studies have shown that: The average age is 25-30 years old.
The average MMOGer is in full time employment/education. (only 10% are unemployed)
The average hours per week is 22.
22 hours is not a vast amount of time; and WoW easily has enough content to ensure that anyone playing 22 hours a week will be able to do so for a long time before the burn-out sets in.
The problem is with the people, but it's not with the average gamer .. it's with those on the fringes; the minorities who seem to feel that the genre should change to reflect their preferences rather than the majority. It's egotistical, ridiculous, and clearly not going to happen. While the "l33t k1d5" like Wharg0ul delight in looking down on WoW because it's not a hardcore game, they are merely another minority and are best left to fester in their own pit of resentment at the genre that left them behind.
And my point comes back. Even if someone released an IDEAL game - fun enough for hardcore, core and casual crowds, people would STILL most likely bounce back to WoW, out of familiarity and unbothering.
So it will happen. We can't really do anything about it. If someone wants to go back playing WoW then let him because that's what he enjoys. I think the only ones who are getting hurt here are the people who put a lot of time into playing MMORPG's.
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
What's with all the hate? With your logic, every person who likes mainstream pop music, should change their favorite music genre even if they don't like their new choice and all that because mainstream is garbage, right? You need to stop caring about people who play WoW since you seem to hate them with passion. I know people who play WoW but I don't think them as some kind of a mainstream junkie, it's their choice to play it. I played it too for 6 months but the game burned out for me.
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
What's with all the hate? With your logic, every person who likes mainstream pop music, should change their favorite music genre even if they don't like their new choice and all that because mainstream is garbage, right? You need to stop caring about people who play WoW since you seem to hate them with passion. I know people who play WoW but I don't think them as some kind of a mainstream junkie, it's their choice to play it. I played it too for 6 months but the game burned out for me.
Some people just HAVE to have someone/something to look down their nose at. Its simply human nature. Its usually easy to mock the "mainstream" for their lack of "refinement" and other such, because there are elements of truth to it. But only elements. Its the entire basis of political ideologies, and used to justify actions that would other wise trouble what passes for a conscience with some people. Life is a constant struggle for such types, and if others aren't struggling "enough" then envy and spite kick in. Its tragic, but thats simply the way of the world.
according to that logic, every resturaunt in the country should be serving Big Macs...in fact they would be foolish not to, right?? There's just one flaw to that..some chefs prefer to make a quality product, and let the mass market be damned. Cheap, fast and easy =/= better.
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
And that's why EVERY resturaunt is McD's right??
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game.
Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking....
By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
At first it seemed well and good - the game recieved more money, that meant it would only get better and, hopefully, you could convince those snobby EQ bastards to make a switch.
Wait. EQ players snobby? Well sure maybe some of them. I understand that this posts tone is about community and how "non-geeks" destroyed the mmo communities. But EQ is one of few mmo's that did have the best community. I am confused by your tactic here. Was you directly attacking EQ players as snobby or just showing the difference between EQ and WoW community by value of "sunshine"? But if you are truely saying EQ players are snobby, more so than WoW, I don't want to call you delusional...
Please look at the subcription numbers OP / people that agree with, There are millions of people that don't play wow, that means, Blizzard doesn't have a monopoly
I just got back from mmochart ((http://www.mmogchart.com/)) and while wow is far and away the leader, there are a great number of mmos above 100k subs.
You don''t need 11 million players to have a game world you will enjoy, technically you only need 1 server, from a player point of view - of course more subs will transfer into more content (in theory) which will make your play experience better, though developers should plan around getting a small amount of subs and scaling upwards if they don't.
There were many threads exactly like this before wow was even a glimmer in Blizzard's eye, refering to the current king of the genre, EQ, and indeed many mmo's copied EQ too.
It's shocking how little faith you have in other gamers, i'm sure you've encountered a few idiots in your mmo lifetime but people that don't make a mess, don't get noticed as much as those that do, skewing the perception. please don't make unfounded generalisations about the player base.
The fact is that people these days will not put up with tortuous gameplay when there are better things to do that don't punish you for trying to have fun.
Blizzard make good games, arguably the best PC developer out there, that said, I quit wow and having friends there didn't change my mind - i can phone my friends, get a train down , go clubbing with them etc. There's no need to play a game you don't enjoy if your friends are, which is why i quit EVE even though tonnes of my friends play it.
[immaturity] if peer pressure affects you that much you need to get a spine [/immaturity] (all the cool kids were doing it) /irony
Of the so called million mmorpg.com members only a couple thousand visit this site of those only 2-300 at best bother to log in.
newsflash..we've heard all before. How bad must these forums be now that trolls are feeding themselves the same trite on whatever side of whatever pathetic argument? It does not matter if WoW is good/bad/mediocre, is played by 200 people or 3 billion people. noboody cares.Too many people on these forums have a self-inflated opinion of their own opinion as if it makes a massive difference to any game or anything it doesn't, however beautifully crafted or otherwise a post may be.
Had to remove signature because of lame code of conduct...
Of the so called million mmorpg.com members only a couple thousand visit this site of those only 2-300 at best bother to log in.
newsflash..we've heard all before. How bad must these forums be now that trolls are feeding themselves the same trite on whatever side of whatever pathetic argument? It does not matter if WoW is good/bad/mediocre, is played by 200 people or 3 billion people. noboody cares.Too many people on these forums have a self-inflated opinion of their own opinion as if it makes a massive difference to any game or anything it doesn't, however beautifully crafted or otherwise a post may be.
Blizzard make good games, arguably the best PC developer out there, that said, I quit wow and having friends there didn't change my mind - i can phone my friends, get a train down , go clubbing with them etc. There's no need to play a game you don't enjoy if your friends are, which is why i quit EVE even though tonnes of my friends play it.
That is a good point. Once you begin to grow older and more experienced you realize that online "friends" are not really friends, your friends are those people you know in real life and real life moves on no matter what happens in a MMO coomunity.
As many MMO players grow up more and more will hopefully realize this and understand that dependency on a fake online social group is hollow and wont bring anything good in the long run (unless you turn into RL friends of course which I have seen many times in DaoC).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
I'm not going to lie. I read the first post. That's it. I know it probably makes my next statements uninformed, but I think I saw something about McDonald's. I don't even WANT to get into that part of the conversation.
I couldn't agree more. With everything you said. I feel exactly the same. Not only that, alot of my friends have Macs or are in college like myself. College students do not have enough time to grind through everything all over again, so it's easier to just stick to WoW. No one makes good MMO's for Macs. My friends don't want to bother getting Bootcamp. So you're right. In the end, its the people, not the games. I've played many MMO's vastly superior to WoW, but the lack of interest in other gamers kills them. Just hope for a SWG NGE-esque patch. : )
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST. If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank.
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game. Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking.... By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST. If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank.
Generally speaking for people LIKE myself who play games OTHER than WoW, or it's wanna-be's.
I'm not going to say that catering to the mainstream market won't net you assloads of cash, as long as your product is good. However, one of my points is that a business (game or otherwise) can make PLENTY of money without "selling out", and compromising it's standards and quality.
Gaming companies who refuse to compromise their artistic vision, and make the game they WANT to make, without catering to Joe Basement-Dweller can do quite fine....just ask John Carmack.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion. Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever... ...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST. If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank.
Generally speaking for people LIKE myself who play games OTHER than WoW, or it's wanna-be's.
I'm not going to say that catering to the mainstream market won't net you assloads of cash, as long as your product is good. However, one of my points is that a business (game or otherwise) can make PLENTY of money without "selling out", and compromising it's standards and quality.
Gaming companies who refuse to compromise their artistic vision, and make the game they WANT to make, without catering to Joe Basement-Dweller can do quite fine....just ask John Carmack.
Why do you believe that its necessary to "sell out" to reach mass market access? One need look no further than the Lord Carmack(blessed be his name! ) to know such is un necessary. One doesn't get much more mass market(in terms of FPS) than the Quake/Doom series. The man is perhaps the foremost genius of the age, when it comes to engine creation.
Look at his list of games. Its literally the history of FPS and forms the basis for much of the best of the current generation as well.
Id software has gone from a handful of gamers/programers to a multi million dollar entertainment corporation. Just don't look too closely at who Id's publisher for Wolfenstein in 2009 is...
Comments
Sometimes a post comes along that is simply amazing.
OP and some others: reread the blue (or better yet the entire post).
You must be living in a world, where "conformism", "generalisations" and "not getting the point" are amazing.
I'll repeat myself. WoW is a gorgeous nuclear missle, that could bring orgasmic death to the genre. That is all.
Popular =/= Good. Otherwiose Linkin Park or Britney Spears would be considered masterpieces.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
"Masterpiece" has rarely ever had anything to do with 'good' 'successful' or 'profitable'. Blizzard made a high quality, stable and fun game. Those seem like the right targets to aim for, no?
Do not confuse art with product - there are very different goals in creating both.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
And that's why EVERY resturaunt is McD's right??
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game.
Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking....
By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
WoW was fun.Blizzard didn't try and reinvent fun they took a look around said those things are fun how can we put them together and build on them. Most mmos are interested in fulfilling a vision or distinguishing themselves rather than making a fun game. Its the cynical reality of MMO developer mentality as I have seen it.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
Damn man, I was all kinda with you on this post until I hit the first "obsurity", which I figured you simply missed the C on your keyboard. The second one made me chuckle, and the third one just made me sad. It's obscure
Other than that, you pretty well hit the nail on the head (and gave me some lulz with the spelling).
Anyway, some excellent points have been made in this thread pointing at players' cycles of return to WoW. Yes, WoW's a great game (that'll I'll never return to - seriously) and it is a very high quality product. However, at the point that players get bored and WANT to move on, and even TRY to move on, it's an extremely difficult move for most. Plenty of folks won't move on without their buddies/family/significant others. Those who try don't last long without their social networks, and I can't agree more with the fella that said a lot of it chalks up to "why bother". It's tough to leave behind a well-established character that's max level and has great gear. People spend hundreds to thousands of hours on their WoW toons (another testament to WoW - there's content to burn that much time on) while spending that time with people whose company they enjoy. That's a TOUGH thing to just stand up and walk away from. That simultaneously makes it that much harder for a new game to draw in new players.
Another fine point's been made in that people DO try other games then just go back. Read above. Sure, there's been some rather serious flops and horrid launches in recent memory, but not every game released is garbage. They just don't have the mass appeal of WoW, and that's OK. As long as those games pick enough people up for the ride they wanted and can stay afloat while doing so, more power to them. A recent thread on these boards says it far better than I can on why I hope there never is an actual WoW killer. I don't hate WoW just because I don't want to play it anymore. I don't hate WoW because it's the most popular thing in gaming since 3D graphics, either. The Big Mac comparison just doesn't really hold water. There's really not even any reason for the animosity towards the damn game other than that it has cause some extremely flawed WoW clones, but devs can see those failures and will (hopefully) avoid them at all costs, thus increasing the quality of future products. It's just a matter of time before the proper game comes along and snatches each of us up for the ride we want. After all, competition is what forces better products, and WoW has set the bar high, and I'm not even talking about subscription numbers.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
That is funny as hell that I missed the C every time=) I think my brain is on shutdown for the weekend. Thanks.
I apologize if my comparison of Blizzard to a monopoly through so many people (and this thread) into a tail spin followed by a nose-dive. It's not literal. The literal definition of a monopoly means they are the sole provider of a particular good or service. Now obviously there are plenty of OTHER companies who provide the same serive (MMORPGs). But the numbers are still growing for WoW and shrinking for the competition. Taking this into consideration and a loose definition of the word monopoly I still feel it applies. Now people are saying that of course a company is motivated by profit and will continue offering the best services for the lowest price to stay competitive. But a monopoly is formed through this pursuit of profit knocking off competitors whether through services, quality, quantity or other questionable actions. The open marketplace makes it VERY possible for monopolies to exist, hence the reason why the government has to become involved from time to time.
So yes, a monopoly is born out of a product that dwarves their competitors to the point where no one will even bother trying to compete anymore... Whether on purpose or not, the social aspect of WoW and sheer addictiveness of MMORPGs in general makes it a perfect candidate. Not that I'm some market or economics guru... just seems to be a possibility.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
And my point comes back. Even if someone released an IDEAL game - fun enough for hardcore, core and casual crowds, people would STILL most likely bounce back to WoW, out of familiarity and unbothering.
So it will happen. We can't really do anything about it. If someone wants to go back playing WoW then let him because that's what he enjoys. I think the only ones who are getting hurt here are the people who put a lot of time into playing MMORPG's.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
What's with all the hate? With your logic, every person who likes mainstream pop music, should change their favorite music genre even if they don't like their new choice and all that because mainstream is garbage, right? You need to stop caring about people who play WoW since you seem to hate them with passion. I know people who play WoW but I don't think them as some kind of a mainstream junkie, it's their choice to play it. I played it too for 6 months but the game burned out for me.
So why can't a mass market product also be a quality product? WOW certainly qualifies by all realistic, logical standards right? Great sales & great reviews. The art is certainly of the highest quality. The music. The production values. The amount of content. It seems ONLY elitists on forums are the ones calling WOW inferior in the quality dept. Critics certainly don't. The players certainly don't. People left in droves from what YOU probably consider quality games to go play WOW. You're saying people purposely will play a low quality game when theres better out there at a cheaper price? They pay MORE money per month to play something inferior? Why would they do that? WHy not play WAR and AOC if WOW is so inferior? Why did so many people leave older, higher quality MMOs to play WOW and never return? Why haven't people who got sick of WOW gone off to play older, higher quality MMOs? Why hasn't UO or EQ seen an uptick in sales? The Beatles, Elvis, The Stones, Michael Jackson and U2 are amazingly popular musicians and yet you don't hear many people calling them low quality crap? But, since peopel like you hate WOW or are jealous of other's liking of it and what its done to the genre, its perfectly OK to label WOW, crap.
Is it because what you consider quality doesn't actually synch up with what MOST players, critics and professionals do? Could it be that maybe your opinion is so distorted that you can't tell the difference between fun and tedium anymore? GOod and not? Quality and crud?Could it be that your opinion doesn't actually matter when its so against what others feel? Could it be developers have no interest in catering to you? OR, is it just mass delusion and EVERYONE is crazy except you=) If you think the sky is normally pink with black polka dots because thats what YOU see, is everyone else nuts for thinking its blue?
There's nothing about WOW that any rational person could say is of an inferior quality compared to its competitors. We're talking the game here, NOT the people. But even then, the quality of the people I played WOW with was exactly the same as previous MMOs because most of them all came from previous MMOs=) DAOC specifically. On that note, when they quit WOW none of them went back to DAOC. What they thought was better about DAOC wasn't enough to get them to return. Why. It was mostly related to the people playing, NOT the game itself. I felt the same when that decision was presented to me after quitting WOW. WIthout the people, DAOC kind of sucked. WOW on the other hand, I did go back to for a few months at a time to go play the expansions, because it was fun regadless of the people. WOW doesn't need to rely on the people to make the game fun. The game itself is fun and the people only enhance the experience. Its completely the other way around with older MMOs. It tells you something about the quality of those games, doesn't it. They can't stand on their own and THAT's why people don't return to them. Its one theory anyway=)
there are millions of people playing other games, man. I hate to break it to you, but WoW's popularity doesn't mean it's BETTER, just more accessable.
Maybe people like the cartoon avatars....or the outright simplicity of it. Maybe they dislike having to read their quests...or having too many options. Maybe they just like simplicity, and being told where to go, and what to do.
Maybe they simply can't see beyond the "kill, get loot, repeat" cycle.
But for many....MANY people, there are all these other games. And the fact that they are all there...being played....making a profit, and staying in business means that not every game maker out there feels the need to cater to the low-brow mass market.
See, fast food and microwave dinners are low quality, fast, easy, and cater to the LAZY, who don't want to have to put too much effort into their meals. Because it takes creativity, initiative, time and some degree of skill to cook a decent meal....and the mainstream isn't going to bother with all that. They want what they want, and they want it NOW...and painted purple and gold, delivered just for them. They feel entitled to that...they deserve it...even though most of them havn't ever had to earn a damn thing in their life.
The mainstream....is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The easy way to get where it wants to go. The rest of us...well, we learned that if we put in a bit of effort, we can achieve more. In fact the harder we work, the more we can achieve, and the more rewarding it is.
What's with all the hate? With your logic, every person who likes mainstream pop music, should change their favorite music genre even if they don't like their new choice and all that because mainstream is garbage, right? You need to stop caring about people who play WoW since you seem to hate them with passion. I know people who play WoW but I don't think them as some kind of a mainstream junkie, it's their choice to play it. I played it too for 6 months but the game burned out for me.
Some people just HAVE to have someone/something to look down their nose at. Its simply human nature. Its usually easy to mock the "mainstream" for their lack of "refinement" and other such, because there are elements of truth to it. But only elements. Its the entire basis of political ideologies, and used to justify actions that would other wise trouble what passes for a conscience with some people. Life is a constant struggle for such types, and if others aren't struggling "enough" then envy and spite kick in. Its tragic, but thats simply the way of the world.
Your posts are really amusing to me. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and clearly zero real world experience in any topic.
No restaurant in the world says "we will make this food, let the market be damned! We would rather have 10 loyal people come in every night, in a restaurant that seats 200, than be flooded with Lemmings who like Big Macs!" This is so idiotic I don't even know why I am responding. A restaurant, though not a great anology, but a restaurant, just like an MMO, is a for profit business. Any successful restaurant is serving food they THINK people want. Sometimes they are wrong and go out of business, but it starts with serving food, or creating an atmosphere, or creating a good price point, that they think will attract a "full house". To think otherwise is completely delusional.
And that's why EVERY resturaunt is McD's right??
I mean...why even bother having anything else, by your logic. We shold ALL be wearing the same thing, listening to the same music, and playing the same game.
Just stare straight ahead at the pretty carrot, and keep walking....
By the way...nice attempt with the weak insults kid. But I've been around for a long time, and I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. I can sit here on my ass and play MMOs all day because I've owned and sold three successful businesses....based around a QUALITY product, not mass-market appeal.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Mmorpg are so 1998ish
As soon as somthing hits mainstream its done. move on nothing left here to see
Wait. EQ players snobby? Well sure maybe some of them. I understand that this posts tone is about community and how "non-geeks" destroyed the mmo communities. But EQ is one of few mmo's that did have the best community. I am confused by your tactic here. Was you directly attacking EQ players as snobby or just showing the difference between EQ and WoW community by value of "sunshine"? But if you are truely saying EQ players are snobby, more so than WoW, I don't want to call you delusional...
Please look at the subcription numbers OP / people that agree with, There are millions of people that don't play wow, that means, Blizzard doesn't have a monopoly
I just got back from mmochart ((http://www.mmogchart.com/)) and while wow is far and away the leader, there are a great number of mmos above 100k subs.
You don''t need 11 million players to have a game world you will enjoy, technically you only need 1 server, from a player point of view - of course more subs will transfer into more content (in theory) which will make your play experience better, though developers should plan around getting a small amount of subs and scaling upwards if they don't.
There were many threads exactly like this before wow was even a glimmer in Blizzard's eye, refering to the current king of the genre, EQ, and indeed many mmo's copied EQ too.
It's shocking how little faith you have in other gamers, i'm sure you've encountered a few idiots in your mmo lifetime but people that don't make a mess, don't get noticed as much as those that do, skewing the perception. please don't make unfounded generalisations about the player base.
The fact is that people these days will not put up with tortuous gameplay when there are better things to do that don't punish you for trying to have fun.
Blizzard make good games, arguably the best PC developer out there, that said, I quit wow and having friends there didn't change my mind - i can phone my friends, get a train down , go clubbing with them etc. There's no need to play a game you don't enjoy if your friends are, which is why i quit EVE even though tonnes of my friends play it.
[immaturity] if peer pressure affects you that much you need to get a spine
[/immaturity] (all the cool kids were doing it) /irony
<Welcome to my world>
Of the so called million mmorpg.com members only a couple thousand visit this site of those only 2-300 at best bother to log in.
newsflash..we've heard all before. How bad must these forums be now that trolls are feeding themselves the same trite on whatever side of whatever pathetic argument? It does not matter if WoW is good/bad/mediocre, is played by 200 people or 3 billion people. noboody cares.Too many people on these forums have a self-inflated opinion of their own opinion as if it makes a massive difference to any game or anything it doesn't, however beautifully crafted or otherwise a post may be.
Had to remove signature because of lame code of conduct...
Then why are you bothering to post?
That is a good point. Once you begin to grow older and more experienced you realize that online "friends" are not really friends, your friends are those people you know in real life and real life moves on no matter what happens in a MMO coomunity.
As many MMO players grow up more and more will hopefully realize this and understand that dependency on a fake online social group is hollow and wont bring anything good in the long run (unless you turn into RL friends of course which I have seen many times in DaoC).
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Good luck getting epics soloing and being anti social in WOW.
edit: you called EQ players snobby bastards... ? can't see why, but it relates well to the general lack of insight of your post.
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
I'm not going to lie. I read the first post. That's it. I know it probably makes my next statements uninformed, but I think I saw something about McDonald's. I don't even WANT to get into that part of the conversation.
I couldn't agree more. With everything you said. I feel exactly the same. Not only that, alot of my friends have Macs or are in college like myself. College students do not have enough time to grind through everything all over again, so it's easier to just stick to WoW. No one makes good MMO's for Macs. My friends don't want to bother getting Bootcamp. So you're right. In the end, its the people, not the games. I've played many MMO's vastly superior to WoW, but the lack of interest in other gamers kills them. Just hope for a SWG NGE-esque patch. : )
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST.
If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank. 
Who said every restaurant is McD's? The point is that a restaurant is a for profit model, unlike the nonsense you are saying above.
As for you running and selling three companies, please post a link to just one of them. Your posts clearly state that you don't have the first inkling of the business world, or the real world in general. You seem to have forgotten the basics of economics as well in the long list of "more things you have forgotten than I will ever know". Your idiotic notion that someone making a "quality" product is not going for "mass-market appeal" shows you know nothing about business. Every for profit business in this world strives to have "mass-market appeal", that is how they make profit. The more appeal their product has the more money they make. To attempt to say quality somehow excludes mass market appeal just shows how little you know.
Can you post a picture of the three successful Lemmonaide stands you have run and what 13 year old you sold them to? So successful that you have retired to play MMO's......LOL.....you bet buddy.
Here's an idea..
JUST FOR YOU, I'll go ahead and derail this whole thread and turn it into an autobiography. I'll give you links, pictures, a copy of my degree, and my resume. While I'm at it, I'll show you pictures of my kids, my car, my house, and even tell you my social security number.
Or maybe....not.
maybe I'll just sit here and laugh at you instead, Mr. Amateur Businessman.
And I call you that because I see your kind here all the time. Making bold claims like "it's stupid for any company not to market to the lowest common denominator...it's all about the biggest profit."
But it's obvious that you know NOTHING about business, or profit, or marketing at all. It makes me laugh every time.
Just like it made me laugh when people would come to MY smoke shop instead of the convenience store, even though my prices were higher.
The difference was that my product was fresh. I knew what I was doing, I kept my cigars in a humidor at the proper humidity level, and I ordered fresh tobacco every two weeks. I explained to customers what the date stamps meant on the packages.
people came to my shop for the quality product. And when the taxes went up and up, and the smoking ban hit, and every other smoke shop bar one in town closed down, I was still making a profit, still paying the bills.
And I didn't have to cater to the widest (lowest denominator) market to do it. I didn't have to start selling glass tubes and blunt wraps. Propane torches, scratch tickets and generic cigarettes. The minute you start catering to that crowd, you start compromising the quality of your establishment.
I sold QUALITY products, to a QUALITY clientele.
And this is precisely why we such a range in the QUALITY of MMORPG gaming communities, by the way.
It's why the community in WoW has gotten it's horrendous reputation. WoW might not be a bad game, and all of it's players might not deserve the reputation that they have earned...but as a result of catering to the "lowest", the reputation of the brand and it's consumers has dropped to less than favorable opinion.
Starting to understand?? You might think McD's, and WoW are the best, smartest thing ever...
...but the rest of us have STANDARDS.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST.
If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank. 
Generally speaking for people LIKE myself who play games OTHER than WoW, or it's wanna-be's.
I'm not going to say that catering to the mainstream market won't net you assloads of cash, as long as your product is good. However, one of my points is that a business (game or otherwise) can make PLENTY of money without "selling out", and compromising it's standards and quality.
Gaming companies who refuse to compromise their artistic vision, and make the game they WANT to make, without catering to Joe Basement-Dweller can do quite fine....just ask John Carmack.
"Rest of us"? You speak for anyone but yourself? You continue to go on(and on...) about "quality", yet you do not seem to understand that this is very much a personal and rather subjective matter. *Value added* is indeed one of the important variables in business. It is what can allow smaller shops to retain business in the face of competition like Walmart. But don't delude yourself about the profits to be made by providing services to the mass market. They are VASTLY greater than one is ever likely to see in niche markets. For every "quality" client to be had, there are likely more than a thousand in the mass market.
Their money is just as green, and adds up FAST.
If you are content making a small fraction of the possible profits to be had, then more power to you. Blizzard no doubt looks at all of the failed attempts to copy WoW and all of those who deride it, and laughs all the way to the bank. 
Generally speaking for people LIKE myself who play games OTHER than WoW, or it's wanna-be's.
I'm not going to say that catering to the mainstream market won't net you assloads of cash, as long as your product is good. However, one of my points is that a business (game or otherwise) can make PLENTY of money without "selling out", and compromising it's standards and quality.
Gaming companies who refuse to compromise their artistic vision, and make the game they WANT to make, without catering to Joe Basement-Dweller can do quite fine....just ask John Carmack.
Why do you believe that its necessary to "sell out" to reach mass market access? One need look no further than the Lord Carmack(blessed be his name!
) to know such is un necessary. One doesn't get much more mass market(in terms of FPS) than the Quake/Doom series. The man is perhaps the foremost genius of the age, when it comes to engine creation.
Look at his list of games. Its literally the history of FPS and forms the basis for much of the best of the current generation as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Carmack
Id software has gone from a handful of gamers/programers to a multi million dollar entertainment corporation. Just don't look too closely at who Id's publisher for Wolfenstein in 2009 is...