For a game to be called sandbox IMO is the freedom to do what you like with plenty of tools provided by the developers. PVP,basic crafting,harvesting,full loot, no levels,seamless world, no instance, these are the core of any sandboxgame but only the core, it's still not a truly sandboxgame you are still restrictded. (semi sandbox)? If there is more tools like, dancing professions,farmer,musican,explorer( being an explorer means somethings not just running around and look at pretty stuff), baker, housebuilder,law enforcer,thief,robber,merc, doing an impact on the world (look at EVE), politics,trade,merchant,economic,scammer,world events for an example people help to build a new npc village,player driven kingdoms/villagers, craft all items from a chair/rug to a mansion/castle, eat & drink no potion spamming. The list can go on and on. My point is for a game to be a true sandbox game the players must have multidude of choises what he/she whants to do not be forced into it by lack of tools. Darkfall may very well be a sandbox game in the future but not as it looks now.
I more or less agree with this. Darkfall seems to have a good core but limitations seem to stem from the fact that almost every road leads back to PVP. Judging from alot of comments, there is like a "guild or die" mentality.... Anyways, I want more options than Darkfall has to offer. I won't just outright say that Darkfall is or is not a sandbox because in my opinion it seems to be in that "gray area". All I do know is that Darkfall is not sandbox enough for me.
LOL, are people still calling this game a Sandbox?
Really. Second Life is a sandbox.
Can you terraform the land? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you own land and build whatever you want on it? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you directly interact with the game-world physics to build things that react to wind, temperature, weather, time of day? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own textures, sounds, objects, images, scripts, avatars? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you change every aspect of your avatar; skin, hair, eyes, shape, clothing even with your own creations? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you equip you avatar with whatever items you can imagine and create them from scratch? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own objects, texture them anyway you want, even with your own created textures? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you change any object's behavior by adding scripts to the object? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create games within the game-world and script your own unique combat systems, crafting systems, and advancement systems? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own NPCs that behave any way you want and place them anywhere you want? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you retain IP on anything you create in-game assign complex permissions on them so the operate the want you want them to? DFO = No, SL = Yes
I can go on and on.....
DFO a sandbox? A litter box maybe...
EDIT: BTW, people are creating MMOs within SL and some of them are really fun. Some are pure roleplay, like Avalon. Some are rp/combat, like Nordhaven. And there are also combat arenas everywhere. And if you don't like what you find, build your own and they will come... :-)
I don't conside DF to be a complete sandbox. 1. You cannot live life as a trade with a store front. Yes you can. You just have to improvise on the store front part. 2. You cannot be a wandering traveler who lives off of the land. Umm, of course you can. Why couldn't you? 3. Combat is TOO much a primary focus. Well it is a FFA PVP game, so I suppose this is unavoidable, unless everyone decided to not simply kill each other at every opportunity, which, though very unlikely, could happen and would not really effect the overall game. im just going to refer to EVE online, there are place in 0.0 space controlled by big alliances where they do not allow killing at every oportunity, sure you can go in their space and start attacking anyone you see but you will soon find that members of this alliance will hunt you down and in most cases succeed. So yes it is likely for a FFAPVP game to avoid combat, al you need is the right tools, which eve has indeed. WoW is not sandbox, DF is not Sandbox, hell, even AC is not sandbox (hunting is too much of a primary focus there as well, although once you've hunted enough, you could effectively live as a trader) DF is an RTS from a first person perspective. I am confused by your definition of a sandbox, I suppose.
i believe a true sandbox is when you have complete control over your char direction.
for example: WoW you are locked into a certain class, even though you have a skill tree. DF there is NO class, you dont pick a pre made setup class you go ingame and level what ever skills you want and can change from a ranger to a tank on the go.
You are not locked down to a certain amount of trade skills.
EG: WoW you can have 1 main trade skill and 2 gathering. DF you can learn any trade skills you want depending on which one you want to spend time on. you could be gathering some herbs then spot a rare mine and tree and get resources from there, then you could go back and create armor or weaps as well as magical potions and have regeants for spells.
World limitations. In DF map what you see is what you get, you can go to about 95% of the map locations without limitations.
WoW half the map is restricted and only allow you to go to place which they want you to go.
so i believe and this is my opinion is that a sandbox is where you have control over your gameplay and are not limited to certain aspects which the creators want you to be.
PS: i only used WoW as a comparriosent because it is a widely known game. And as DF had alot of potential they released a game to early where it was unfinished and not tested enough.
3. Combat is TOO much a primary focus. Well it is a FFA PVP game, so I suppose this is unavoidable, unless everyone decided to not simply kill each other at every opportunity, which, though very unlikely, could happen and would not really effect the overall game. im just going to refer to EVE online, there are place in 0.0 space controlled by big alliances where they do not allow killing at every oportunity, sure you can go in their space and start attacking anyone you see but you will soon find that members of this alliance will hunt you down and in most cases succeed. So yes it is likely for a FFAPVP game to avoid combat, al you need is the right tools, which eve has indeed.
I am a long time EVE player.
Darkfall is an open world and does not have choke points like EVE has. In other words, you can't camp or bubble a gate in Darkfall. You can not trap an enemy in a system by camping the possible escape routes, or camp him in a station.
All that aside, I freely admit that Darkfall is currently much more brutal then EVE is, but we will see how the game, as well as it's alliance system, matures, as it is of course, brand new.
Originally posted by SpungeX in WoW you can: Solo quest Solo PvE grind Group grind Group Quests Do small instances Do large instances Do raids Trade using auction house Trade in cities using chat Craft items Gather resources Engage in pvp in the open world Engage in instanced PvP Explore Roleplay Yet ppl use these same things when listing why a game is a sandbox although WoW (their nemsis) boasts the same features
You are wrong in this..You should really read this thread.
The MAIN thing in a sandbox title is the ability to take whatever route YOU choose, in skills or travel where you like in the world without limitations from the engine..And you can't do that in WoW
All things you listed can naturally also part of a sanbox title but has othing to do with it beiing one..
We have not had a sandbox MMO for a long time. What if the new generation of MMO players belive WoW is sandbox?? WoW is a "closed" MMO. Sandbox is "open". What if people have believed for years that WoW were truly a "open" MMO?
Now we have a problem! We claim there is a big world out there to explore, and they have no clue what we talk about. They have already "seen" everything there is in a MMO. Does that mean they are wrong? Have they been tricked into beliveing "closed" MMOs is the golden rainbow??
Now we see that we cant you walk in here and say that everything they have belived in is false. They will get upset. We just need to give them time to see for them self. No pint in calling thier source of information for liers.
I think we need to rethink how to exploin what a sandbox MMO is.
All your definitions of sandbox games are buggered up.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is WoW.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is AoC.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is WAR.
I mean, you can level up in different zones! Non-linear progression pathing! And, you can change your characters TALENT trees and the like! OMFG SANDBOX.
dese gamez r teh sandb0x!11!!
On a more serious note, Darkfall is not a sandbox, it's just a giant Unreal Tournament domination game with levelling up your skills.
Wait a second here! We have not had a sandbox MMO for a long time. What if the new generation of MMO players belive WoW is sandbox?? WoW is a "closed" MMO. Sandbox is "open". What if people have believed for years that WoW were truly a "open" MMO? Now we have a problem! We claim there is a big world out there to explore, and they have no clue what we talk about. They have already "seen" everything there is in a MMO. Does that mean they are wrong? Have they been tricked into beliveing "closed" MMOs is the golden rainbow?? Now we see that we cant you walk in here and say that everything they have belived in is false. They will get upset. We just need to give them time to see for them self. No pint in calling thier source of information for liers. I think we need to rethink how to exploin what a sandbox MMO is.
Well, many came to WoW as their first MMO and believe Blizzard started the genre. So... it's plausible that some don't understand the differences.
You make a valid point there.
I'd suggest trying out Ryzom for an example of a sandbox game (though you need to get off the starter island before it fully feels like one, since there are guided newbie quests there that feel closer to a "themepark" MMO). I *think* it's still free to play, so it won't cost them anything to try.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
You cannot realistically be an explorer or crafter in DF without training your combat skills
Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
read the red part again. I said WOW is NOT a sandbox game... yet it still has as many 'sandbox' features as DF.
What isn't true? You can't run to the enemy starting area at lvl 1 and pk against people there? You can't run around and explore the map at lvl 1? You can't defend your home city from enemy players who are attacking it? ( I have the acheivement to show you can).
So you are saying DF is a sandbox because you can go anywhere? Then why does it have starter areas? It's the same as WOW.. there are areas that are 'recommended' for certain levels, but you can go there any time you want. Can a new character in DF kill a dragon? No, same way a player in WOW can't kill a high level mob... but that doesn't mean you can't explore the map and run away from everything (same as df)
The definition of 'sandbox' is all about the tools. Does the game have a lot of tools that allow you to play? Darkfall has NOTHING.. NO TOOLS.. the lack of things to do is not a tool. Again, the least sandbox game, WOW, has a ton of sandbox features.. There are holidays ongoing almost all the time that have fun little side events that any player can do, there is a very active auction house/economy that any player can use, there are fishing, vanity pets, acheivements and a whole host of activities that ANYONE can do.
Darkfall has NO tools, just an empty map. In order for a sandbox to be fun, you need a shovel, a bucket and all the little toys that allow you to do things. In darkfall, you are just sitting on a pile of very boring sand with nothing to do. And with all the hacks, macros and exploits that are all over the place.. the sand you are sitting in smells a lot like a dog crapped in it.
this is correct. If you call Darkfall a Sandbox, then you call WoW a sandbox.. and we all agree that it's not. Therefor, Darkfall is NOT a sandbox.
I guess i call it a progress trolls made from "darkfall is not in development " to "darkfall is not a sandbox". Still dumb but a progress indeed.
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I guess i call it a progress trolls made from "darkfall is not in development " to "darkfall is not a sandbox". Still dumb but a progress indeed.
Taken from Wikipedia about a Troll:
"is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
Most here are on topic, talking about whether it is a sandbox or not... it's a normal discussion. It is not inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic. You, on the other hand, post completely off-topic and are only out to get an emotional response and disrupt the normal topic of discussion. Go away, I am tired of seeing your "everyone is a troll" posts on a daily basis. And if you must stay, at least learn what a troll IS and then look in the mirror.
I guess i call it a progress trolls made from "darkfall is not in development " to "darkfall is not a sandbox". Still dumb but a progress indeed.
Taken from Wikipedia about a Troll:
"is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
Most here are on topic, talking about whether it is a sandbox or not... it's a normal discussion. It is not inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic. You, on the other hand, post completely off-topic and are only out to get an emotional response and disrupt the normal topic of discussion. Go away, I am tired of seeing your "everyone is a troll" posts on a daily basis. And if you must stay, at least learn what a troll IS and then look in the mirror.
One thing I've learned.. is that don't bother with Darth. His view is that if you aren't 100% supporting all of The Darkfall, then you are a troll.
this is correct. If you call Darkfall a Sandbox, then you call WoW a sandbox.. and we all agree that it's not. Therefor, Darkfall is NOT a sandbox.
I was trying to stay within range of the OP and only talk about why I felt that DF was basically a sandbox-type game, however too many folks keep pointing at WOW and saying, see, WOW is a sandbox because you can do "xxxx xxxx " in it.
There are some core game features that clearly define a sandbox game that almost everyone agrees on.
The first being, the game cannot have classes. If it does, its not a sandbox. Players have to be able to freely skill up in whatever they chose at any time w/o the need to reroll their character. Which is why AOC, WAR, and WOW, which might have many elements of a sandbox type game cannot be considered such with this design.
Another major element of the sandbox game (vs linear) is that it cannot be designed heavily around quests, and the principal form of advancement can't be to complete the quests in one zone before the player moves over to a higher level zone to repeat the process.
Again, WOW, WAR and AOC are all heavily based on quests, and progression though the game from point A to B to C to D. A game like EVE has no such mechanic.
You can create a brand new character and go out to 0.0 to begin your PVP career if you want. I know several player who did exactly that, one corp leader I flew with went out on his 3rd day in the game and never came back. This was 4 years ago.
DF more cloesly follows the EVE model, therefore I submit its much more a sandbox than the others.
One other argument many people continue to make is that DF doesn't have enough sandbox tools. That is true of course, but still doesn't change its core sandbox features such as skill based, no questing, strong player influence of the game world model. It may be a sandbox w/o a full set of toys to play with, but inherently, its a sandbox at its core.
It will be up to Aventurine over the next year or so to flesh it out and provide more things to do. In the meantime, many players are content to enjoy what is available now, mainly PVP, full looting, city seiging and boat combat.
People need to stop hating games for what they lack and instead try to enjoy them more for what they provide at the present time.
If there's not enough content in DF for you now, fine, don't play the game. See, that was simple. Go play another game like EVE or UO thats got more tools/toys than you'll ever be able to master.
edit: and no, I don't nor ever have played DF. Not sure I ever will, but I can certainly see what sort of game they are trying to deliver and am not trying to make it into something it isn't. (yet)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thread title: Why do you consider Darkfall to be sandbox? Because I'm not funnelled into doing things a certain way like WoW, WAR, LotRO. I am free to do what I want.
Thread title: Why do you consider Darkfall to be sandbox? Because I'm not funnelled into doing things a certain way like WoW, WAR, LotRO. I am free to do what I want.
Actually by that definition then those are all sandboxes as well as you can sit and do nothing all day if you want. You are not forced into anything in those games either. You can craft only. you could sit at the AH and play daytrader all day, hell you could fish in a pond all day if you want and technically in some way you would advance and not have to adventure at all.
It's not just that, you are funneled into certain areas, restricted on which tradeskills you pick up, armour you can wear, spells you can learn, skills you can learn, things that you can climb. It's like a kid trying to play with a protective parent watching over them.
Thread title: Why do you consider Darkfall to be sandbox? Because I'm not funnelled into doing things a certain way like WoW, WAR, LotRO. I am free to do what I want.
Then try creating a weapon purely of your own design. Oh wait, you need a recipe? And there are a finite number of recipes to choose your creation from? Like hell you're not funneled into doing things certain way.
Try making your own armor. Or building a home from the ground up using your own designs. Oh wait, can't do those things either.
DFO is an OPEN-ENDED GAME, not a SANDBOX. Stop confusing the two.
Take away all user-created content in DFO and you have left....uh...pretty much everything in the game. Take away all user-created content in Second Life, a REAL sandbox, and you have left ....uh...an entire server farm of flat land or ocean waiting to be terraformed, a physics engine waiting for objects to interact with, and plain avatars waiting for someone to give them a shape/skin/eyes/hair/clothing.
One other argument many people continue to make is that DF doesn't have enough sandbox tools. That is true of course, but still doesn't change its core sandbox features such as skill based, no questing, strong player influence of the game world model. It may be a sandbox w/o a full set of toys to play with, but inherently, its a sandbox at its core.
To be perfectly honest, you type a lot of chaff, so let's cut through that, and get to the heart of the argument.
Darkfall does NOT have a strong player influence. You build cities in a set way around set markers and that's about it. Also, I'm fairly certain you could do a sandbox game based around a classed model, you'd just need a diverse range of classes to pick from at the very start. Star Wars Galaxies technically had questing, and I don't think anyone can deny that was sandbox, so your final point is moot, too. EvE also has "quests".
this is correct. If you call Darkfall a Sandbox, then you call WoW a sandbox.. and we all agree that it's not. Therefor, Darkfall is NOT a sandbox.
I was trying to stay within range of the OP and only talk about why I felt that DF was basically a sandbox-type game, however too many folks keep pointing at WOW and saying, see, WOW is a sandbox because you can do "xxxx xxxx " in it.
There are some core game features that clearly define a sandbox game that almost everyone agrees on.
The first being, the game cannot have classes. If it does, its not a sandbox. Players have to be able to freely skill up in whatever they chose at any time w/o the need to reroll their character. Which is why AOC, WAR, and WOW, which might have many elements of a sandbox type game cannot be considered such with this design.
Another major element of the sandbox game (vs linear) is that it cannot be designed heavily around quests, and the principal form of advancement can't be to complete the quests in one zone before the player moves over to a higher level zone to repeat the process.
Again, WOW, WAR and AOC are all heavily based on quests, and progression though the game from point A to B to C to D. A game like EVE has no such mechanic.
You can create a brand new character and go out to 0.0 to begin your PVP career if you want. I know several player who did exactly that, one corp leader I flew with went out on his 3rd day in the game and never came back. This was 4 years ago.
DF more cloesly follows the EVE model, therefore I submit its much more a sandbox than the others.
One other argument many people continue to make is that DF doesn't have enough sandbox tools. That is true of course, but still doesn't change its core sandbox features such as skill based, no questing, strong player influence of the game world model. It may be a sandbox w/o a full set of toys to play with, but inherently, its a sandbox at its core.
It will be up to Aventurine over the next year or so to flesh it out and provide more things to do. In the meantime, many players are content to enjoy what is available now, mainly PVP, full looting, city seiging and boat combat.
People need to stop hating games for what they lack and instead try to enjoy them more for what they provide at the present time.
If there's not enough content in DF for you now, fine, don't play the game. See, that was simple. Go play another game like EVE or UO thats got more tools/toys than you'll ever be able to master.
edit: and no, I don't nor ever have played DF. Not sure I ever will, but I can certainly see what sort of game they are trying to deliver and am not trying to make it into something it isn't. (yet)
Going to have to disagree with the statement I put in red.
SWG had "classes" (professions)... and I think quite a few consider SWG (Pre-CU) to be sandbox.
Don't know why I am here other than I just read 50% of this argument. I am dumbfounded as to how many newcomers there are here and how loud-mouthed and basicaly confratational and wrong you wannabee's are!!
The term "sandbox" is not new term and what it means, cannot be changed because a newbie fanboi feels like using it as a defense mechnism.
Darkfall is in no way a Sanbox MMORPG!
Everquest is more a "sandbox" and open-ended than Darkfall... even though DFO is suppose to have open-world and be classless.
Because Darkfall has no veriety within those core elements! It's a Class-free game, yet you don't see anyone playing roles within combat. Thus, Darkfall's system is clearly limited and not open-ended.
Feature by feature - Darkfall has two sandbox elements, that are extremely restrictive and confining. Thus even Darkfall's combat and skill tree are unworthy of the sandbox name. Yet, even in Everquest Warriors harvested, and learned alchemy because they couldn't gate (portal spell), so they learned other means in which to remove themselves from a dungeon, battle, etc.
I would really like to investigate many claims of why people ignorantly think Darkfall is a sandbox game. I played it, followed it for some time and just didn't see the value in this game. But I'm not delusional and understand the shortcomming of this game and why it isn't even a niche game. Perhaps those who feel that Darkfall is a Sandbox MMORPG could explain the game history and what they liked about the "other" games they played.
And why you think Darkfall offers a "sanbox" feel.
This game is not sandbox. People just call it a sandbox MMO because they think that makes them cool.
A sandbox in terms of gaming starts with nothing and you create it. There are mobs, you do have to level up your skills you really don't get to create the world around you in this game. Just because you can do whatever you want is not the same as creating it. In other MMOs you can still become a PvP master or Crafting Master. Just because in some MMORPGs you have to do quests to get there is not taking away from you goal. You are reaching your goal by doing said quests to become better at them... ala the RPG in the MMO.
This game is no more sandbox than any other mmo. This just has less content which i guess is fooling some people into thinking it's "sandbox."
Ok the reason Darkfall is sandbox.........is because if you go out of town........anyone can kill you and loot you. That pretty much makes it diffrent than all the ones you listed. It is also skill based. You use a sword you gain swords. Its not just running around in a safe haven killing mobs to gain exp that gives you exp in everything. You sprint ...you gain sprint......you swim you gain swim. you rest you gain rest. Its not go here kill this to such and such a level....then go to this place. QUESTION ANSWERED.
Comments
I more or less agree with this. Darkfall seems to have a good core but limitations seem to stem from the fact that almost every road leads back to PVP. Judging from alot of comments, there is like a "guild or die" mentality.... Anyways, I want more options than Darkfall has to offer. I won't just outright say that Darkfall is or is not a sandbox because in my opinion it seems to be in that "gray area". All I do know is that Darkfall is not sandbox enough for me.
LOL, are people still calling this game a Sandbox?
Really. Second Life is a sandbox.
Can you terraform the land? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you own land and build whatever you want on it? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you directly interact with the game-world physics to build things that react to wind, temperature, weather, time of day? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own textures, sounds, objects, images, scripts, avatars? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you change every aspect of your avatar; skin, hair, eyes, shape, clothing even with your own creations? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you equip you avatar with whatever items you can imagine and create them from scratch? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own objects, texture them anyway you want, even with your own created textures? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you change any object's behavior by adding scripts to the object? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create games within the game-world and script your own unique combat systems, crafting systems, and advancement systems? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you create your own NPCs that behave any way you want and place them anywhere you want? DFO = No, SL = Yes
Can you retain IP on anything you create in-game assign complex permissions on them so the operate the want you want them to? DFO = No, SL = Yes
I can go on and on.....
DFO a sandbox? A litter box maybe...
EDIT: BTW, people are creating MMOs within SL and some of them are really fun. Some are pure roleplay, like Avalon. Some are rp/combat, like Nordhaven. And there are also combat arenas everywhere. And if you don't like what you find, build your own and they will come... :-)
in WoW you can:
Solo quest
Solo PvE grind
Group grind
Group Quests
Do small instances
Do large instances
Do raids
Trade using auction house
Trade in cities using chat
Craft items
Gather resources
Engage in pvp in the open world
Engage in instanced PvP
Explore
Roleplay
Yet ppl use these same things when listing why a game is a sandbox although WoW (their nemsis) boasts the same features
i believe a true sandbox is when you have complete control over your char direction.
for example: WoW you are locked into a certain class, even though you have a skill tree. DF there is NO class, you dont pick a pre made setup class you go ingame and level what ever skills you want and can change from a ranger to a tank on the go.
You are not locked down to a certain amount of trade skills.
EG: WoW you can have 1 main trade skill and 2 gathering. DF you can learn any trade skills you want depending on which one you want to spend time on. you could be gathering some herbs then spot a rare mine and tree and get resources from there, then you could go back and create armor or weaps as well as magical potions and have regeants for spells.
World limitations. In DF map what you see is what you get, you can go to about 95% of the map locations without limitations.
WoW half the map is restricted and only allow you to go to place which they want you to go.
so i believe and this is my opinion is that a sandbox is where you have control over your gameplay and are not limited to certain aspects which the creators want you to be.
PS: i only used WoW as a comparriosent because it is a widely known game. And as DF had alot of potential they released a game to early where it was unfinished and not tested enough.
I am a long time EVE player.
Darkfall is an open world and does not have choke points like EVE has. In other words, you can't camp or bubble a gate in Darkfall. You can not trap an enemy in a system by camping the possible escape routes, or camp him in a station.
All that aside, I freely admit that Darkfall is currently much more brutal then EVE is, but we will see how the game, as well as it's alliance system, matures, as it is of course, brand new.
You are wrong in this..You should really read this thread.
The MAIN thing in a sandbox title is the ability to take whatever route YOU choose, in skills or travel where you like in the world without limitations from the engine..And you can't do that in WoW
All things you listed can naturally also part of a sanbox title but has othing to do with it beiing one..
Wait a second here!
We have not had a sandbox MMO for a long time. What if the new generation of MMO players belive WoW is sandbox?? WoW is a "closed" MMO. Sandbox is "open". What if people have believed for years that WoW were truly a "open" MMO?
Now we have a problem! We claim there is a big world out there to explore, and they have no clue what we talk about. They have already "seen" everything there is in a MMO. Does that mean they are wrong? Have they been tricked into beliveing "closed" MMOs is the golden rainbow??
Now we see that we cant you walk in here and say that everything they have belived in is false. They will get upset. We just need to give them time to see for them self. No pint in calling thier source of information for liers.
I think we need to rethink how to exploin what a sandbox MMO is.
All your definitions of sandbox games are buggered up.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is WoW.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is AoC.
If Darkfall is a sandbox, so is WAR.
I mean, you can level up in different zones! Non-linear progression pathing! And, you can change your characters TALENT trees and the like! OMFG SANDBOX.
dese gamez r teh sandb0x!11!!
On a more serious note, Darkfall is not a sandbox, it's just a giant Unreal Tournament domination game with levelling up your skills.
Well, many came to WoW as their first MMO and believe Blizzard started the genre. So... it's plausible that some don't understand the differences.
You make a valid point there.
I'd suggest trying out Ryzom for an example of a sandbox game (though you need to get off the starter island before it fully feels like one, since there are guided newbie quests there that feel closer to a "themepark" MMO). I *think* it's still free to play, so it won't cost them anything to try.
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Wrong.
Darkfall lacks the maturity of games that have been out for close to a decade, but fluff will come in time, they have already begun patching some in.
If you think that Darkfall isn't a sandbox because you can't plant little flowers, you need to seek help. I guess Morrowind wasn't a sandbox game either.
The rulset of Darkfall puts no limit on the character, there is no linear progression, there are no zones, no instances, no classes, no levels, NOTHING stopping you from doing what you want to do. Pirate, explorer, crafter, PKer, anti-PKer, merc, general, scout, conqueror, or just someone who wants to roleplay a lunatic on an island in the middle of nowhere killing anyone who lands there.
It's a sandbox, and if you can't see it, then you're lost.
And you can do that all in WOW. I can, at level 1, run my character from ogrimmar to Dun Murogh and try and PK the players there. I can, within 30 mins of creating a character, run around and mine/skin/craft. I can, at lvl 1, run all around the world and explore. WOW is probably the 'least' sandbox game there is, but everything you can do in DF, you can do in WOW. I have an achievement in WOW for killing 50 players who attacked my city. I got that achievement in a few weeks.
Wow, I almost threw up reading that. WoW is the game that invented the linear, single path dumbed down theme park genre. It got its roots from EverQuest but at least EverQuest gave you options.
None of the things you said were remotely true, and if you can't see the difference, I say again, you are lost.
read the red part again. I said WOW is NOT a sandbox game... yet it still has as many 'sandbox' features as DF.
What isn't true? You can't run to the enemy starting area at lvl 1 and pk against people there? You can't run around and explore the map at lvl 1? You can't defend your home city from enemy players who are attacking it? ( I have the acheivement to show you can).
So you are saying DF is a sandbox because you can go anywhere? Then why does it have starter areas? It's the same as WOW.. there are areas that are 'recommended' for certain levels, but you can go there any time you want. Can a new character in DF kill a dragon? No, same way a player in WOW can't kill a high level mob... but that doesn't mean you can't explore the map and run away from everything (same as df)
The definition of 'sandbox' is all about the tools. Does the game have a lot of tools that allow you to play? Darkfall has NOTHING.. NO TOOLS.. the lack of things to do is not a tool. Again, the least sandbox game, WOW, has a ton of sandbox features.. There are holidays ongoing almost all the time that have fun little side events that any player can do, there is a very active auction house/economy that any player can use, there are fishing, vanity pets, acheivements and a whole host of activities that ANYONE can do.
Darkfall has NO tools, just an empty map. In order for a sandbox to be fun, you need a shovel, a bucket and all the little toys that allow you to do things. In darkfall, you are just sitting on a pile of very boring sand with nothing to do. And with all the hacks, macros and exploits that are all over the place.. the sand you are sitting in smells a lot like a dog crapped in it.
this is correct. If you call Darkfall a Sandbox, then you call WoW a sandbox.. and we all agree that it's not. Therefor, Darkfall is NOT a sandbox.
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I guess i call it a progress trolls made from "darkfall is not in development " to "darkfall is not a sandbox". Still dumb but a progress indeed.
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Taken from Wikipedia about a Troll:
"is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
Most here are on topic, talking about whether it is a sandbox or not... it's a normal discussion. It is not inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic. You, on the other hand, post completely off-topic and are only out to get an emotional response and disrupt the normal topic of discussion. Go away, I am tired of seeing your "everyone is a troll" posts on a daily basis. And if you must stay, at least learn what a troll IS and then look in the mirror.
Is it important if Darkfall is a sandbox or not? I thought the important part is if it's fun.
Taken from Wikipedia about a Troll:
"is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."
Most here are on topic, talking about whether it is a sandbox or not... it's a normal discussion. It is not inflammatory, irrelevant, or off-topic. You, on the other hand, post completely off-topic and are only out to get an emotional response and disrupt the normal topic of discussion. Go away, I am tired of seeing your "everyone is a troll" posts on a daily basis. And if you must stay, at least learn what a troll IS and then look in the mirror.
One thing I've learned.. is that don't bother with Darth. His view is that if you aren't 100% supporting all of The Darkfall, then you are a troll.
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For all your stalking needs..
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I was trying to stay within range of the OP and only talk about why I felt that DF was basically a sandbox-type game, however too many folks keep pointing at WOW and saying, see, WOW is a sandbox because you can do "xxxx xxxx " in it.
There are some core game features that clearly define a sandbox game that almost everyone agrees on.
The first being, the game cannot have classes. If it does, its not a sandbox. Players have to be able to freely skill up in whatever they chose at any time w/o the need to reroll their character. Which is why AOC, WAR, and WOW, which might have many elements of a sandbox type game cannot be considered such with this design.
Another major element of the sandbox game (vs linear) is that it cannot be designed heavily around quests, and the principal form of advancement can't be to complete the quests in one zone before the player moves over to a higher level zone to repeat the process.
Again, WOW, WAR and AOC are all heavily based on quests, and progression though the game from point A to B to C to D. A game like EVE has no such mechanic.
You can create a brand new character and go out to 0.0 to begin your PVP career if you want. I know several player who did exactly that, one corp leader I flew with went out on his 3rd day in the game and never came back. This was 4 years ago.
DF more cloesly follows the EVE model, therefore I submit its much more a sandbox than the others.
One other argument many people continue to make is that DF doesn't have enough sandbox tools. That is true of course, but still doesn't change its core sandbox features such as skill based, no questing, strong player influence of the game world model. It may be a sandbox w/o a full set of toys to play with, but inherently, its a sandbox at its core.
It will be up to Aventurine over the next year or so to flesh it out and provide more things to do. In the meantime, many players are content to enjoy what is available now, mainly PVP, full looting, city seiging and boat combat.
People need to stop hating games for what they lack and instead try to enjoy them more for what they provide at the present time.
If there's not enough content in DF for you now, fine, don't play the game. See, that was simple. Go play another game like EVE or UO thats got more tools/toys than you'll ever be able to master.
edit: and no, I don't nor ever have played DF. Not sure I ever will, but I can certainly see what sort of game they are trying to deliver and am not trying to make it into something it isn't. (yet)
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Thread title: Why do you consider Darkfall to be sandbox? Because I'm not funnelled into doing things a certain way like WoW, WAR, LotRO. I am free to do what I want.
Actually by that definition then those are all sandboxes as well as you can sit and do nothing all day if you want. You are not forced into anything in those games either. You can craft only. you could sit at the AH and play daytrader all day, hell you could fish in a pond all day if you want and technically in some way you would advance and not have to adventure at all.
It's not just that, you are funneled into certain areas, restricted on which tradeskills you pick up, armour you can wear, spells you can learn, skills you can learn, things that you can climb. It's like a kid trying to play with a protective parent watching over them.
Then try creating a weapon purely of your own design. Oh wait, you need a recipe? And there are a finite number of recipes to choose your creation from? Like hell you're not funneled into doing things certain way.
Try making your own armor. Or building a home from the ground up using your own designs. Oh wait, can't do those things either.
DFO is an OPEN-ENDED GAME, not a SANDBOX. Stop confusing the two.
Take away all user-created content in DFO and you have left....uh...pretty much everything in the game. Take away all user-created content in Second Life, a REAL sandbox, and you have left ....uh...an entire server farm of flat land or ocean waiting to be terraformed, a physics engine waiting for objects to interact with, and plain avatars waiting for someone to give them a shape/skin/eyes/hair/clothing.
To be perfectly honest, you type a lot of chaff, so let's cut through that, and get to the heart of the argument.
Darkfall does NOT have a strong player influence. You build cities in a set way around set markers and that's about it. Also, I'm fairly certain you could do a sandbox game based around a classed model, you'd just need a diverse range of classes to pick from at the very start. Star Wars Galaxies technically had questing, and I don't think anyone can deny that was sandbox, so your final point is moot, too. EvE also has "quests".
I was trying to stay within range of the OP and only talk about why I felt that DF was basically a sandbox-type game, however too many folks keep pointing at WOW and saying, see, WOW is a sandbox because you can do "xxxx xxxx " in it.
There are some core game features that clearly define a sandbox game that almost everyone agrees on.
The first being, the game cannot have classes. If it does, its not a sandbox. Players have to be able to freely skill up in whatever they chose at any time w/o the need to reroll their character. Which is why AOC, WAR, and WOW, which might have many elements of a sandbox type game cannot be considered such with this design.
Another major element of the sandbox game (vs linear) is that it cannot be designed heavily around quests, and the principal form of advancement can't be to complete the quests in one zone before the player moves over to a higher level zone to repeat the process.
Again, WOW, WAR and AOC are all heavily based on quests, and progression though the game from point A to B to C to D. A game like EVE has no such mechanic.
You can create a brand new character and go out to 0.0 to begin your PVP career if you want. I know several player who did exactly that, one corp leader I flew with went out on his 3rd day in the game and never came back. This was 4 years ago.
DF more cloesly follows the EVE model, therefore I submit its much more a sandbox than the others.
One other argument many people continue to make is that DF doesn't have enough sandbox tools. That is true of course, but still doesn't change its core sandbox features such as skill based, no questing, strong player influence of the game world model. It may be a sandbox w/o a full set of toys to play with, but inherently, its a sandbox at its core.
It will be up to Aventurine over the next year or so to flesh it out and provide more things to do. In the meantime, many players are content to enjoy what is available now, mainly PVP, full looting, city seiging and boat combat.
People need to stop hating games for what they lack and instead try to enjoy them more for what they provide at the present time.
If there's not enough content in DF for you now, fine, don't play the game. See, that was simple. Go play another game like EVE or UO thats got more tools/toys than you'll ever be able to master.
edit: and no, I don't nor ever have played DF. Not sure I ever will, but I can certainly see what sort of game they are trying to deliver and am not trying to make it into something it isn't. (yet)
Going to have to disagree with the statement I put in red.
SWG had "classes" (professions)... and I think quite a few consider SWG (Pre-CU) to be sandbox.
Don't know why I am here other than I just read 50% of this argument. I am dumbfounded as to how many newcomers there are here and how loud-mouthed and basicaly confratational and wrong you wannabee's are!!
The term "sandbox" is not new term and what it means, cannot be changed because a newbie fanboi feels like using it as a defense mechnism.
Darkfall is in no way a Sanbox MMORPG!
Everquest is more a "sandbox" and open-ended than Darkfall... even though DFO is suppose to have open-world and be classless.
Because Darkfall has no veriety within those core elements! It's a Class-free game, yet you don't see anyone playing roles within combat. Thus, Darkfall's system is clearly limited and not open-ended.
Feature by feature - Darkfall has two sandbox elements, that are extremely restrictive and confining. Thus even Darkfall's combat and skill tree are unworthy of the sandbox name. Yet, even in Everquest Warriors harvested, and learned alchemy because they couldn't gate (portal spell), so they learned other means in which to remove themselves from a dungeon, battle, etc.
I would really like to investigate many claims of why people ignorantly think Darkfall is a sandbox game. I played it, followed it for some time and just didn't see the value in this game. But I'm not delusional and understand the shortcomming of this game and why it isn't even a niche game. Perhaps those who feel that Darkfall is a Sandbox MMORPG could explain the game history and what they liked about the "other" games they played.
And why you think Darkfall offers a "sanbox" feel.
This game is not sandbox. People just call it a sandbox MMO because they think that makes them cool.
A sandbox in terms of gaming starts with nothing and you create it. There are mobs, you do have to level up your skills you really don't get to create the world around you in this game. Just because you can do whatever you want is not the same as creating it. In other MMOs you can still become a PvP master or Crafting Master. Just because in some MMORPGs you have to do quests to get there is not taking away from you goal. You are reaching your goal by doing said quests to become better at them... ala the RPG in the MMO.
This game is no more sandbox than any other mmo. This just has less content which i guess is fooling some people into thinking it's "sandbox."
Ok the reason Darkfall is sandbox.........is because if you go out of town........anyone can kill you and loot you. That pretty much makes it diffrent than all the ones you listed. It is also skill based. You use a sword you gain swords. Its not just running around in a safe haven killing mobs to gain exp that gives you exp in everything. You sprint ...you gain sprint......you swim you gain swim. you rest you gain rest. Its not go here kill this to such and such a level....then go to this place. QUESTION ANSWERED.
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