Blizzard knows a lot about games. WoW is the best Theme Park MMO ever made, and it is hardcore. Let me repeat that. It is hardcore. Or it can be if you go to raids. I'm pretty dedicated and I'm still doing heroics and starting the 10 person raids. I see the top raiders and they are more skilled than me, they know how to use the add-ons better and they anticipate situations, they are more aware of what is going on in a fight, they have more experience, and of course they have better gear. My brother plays now and then, he never been higher than lvl 30 and have participated in a group a couple of times with me. And all three.. the dedicated rider, the wanabe rider and the casual, enjoy the game. This takes a lot of expertise and talent to accomplish.
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
When you grow up, you develop principles that you stick to when you make important decisions in life, not deciding if you want to buy a video game or not. The way I see it, World of Warcraft's endgame is there to give players who are truly dedicated to their character a way to keep playing that character while it gives Blizzard time to develop new content. You can't expect Blizzard to develop faster than players can play through.
If you don't want to play "hardcore" with your character once you reach the cap, then don't. You're free to make a brand new character, there are 2 factions and enough areas,quests and classes to give you a different experience.
Finally, another old school MMO vet and veteran like myself who can bring some order and logic to these boards.
Thanks Gameloading, I've missed you.
I just love how people assume because I try and defend WoW that I'm some carebear noob whose first MMO was WoW. I just love it!
Let me talk plain-
I started MMOs with Ultima Online when the game was still in Beta, playing on a friends account. I didn't have my own account and play really seriously until the Trammel / Felucca split, and I spent about half my time on the Atlantic server mostly on the PvE side (Trammel) until the Factions PvP system came out.
The other half of my play time I spent on the Siege Perilous shard, which had NO Trammel and was quite "hardcore" in the FFA PvP only rule set, they even capped the number of skill/stat gains you could make in a day.
I absolutely hated Everquest. I thought it was a linear, gear oriented, level grind fest and compared to UO I thought it was total trash.
I played around a bit in Earth and Beyond, Final Fantasy XI, and ended up in Star Wars Galaxies at launch and loved that game up until the Holocron grind came out, which I thought was the absolute worst grind-heavy no-thought game system I have ever seen in any game, let along a MMORPG. It angered me so much and I thought it was so stupid i completely quit playing SWG and MMOs all together.
I wasn't even around for the Combat Upgrade or New Game Experience. I gave up on that piece of sh!t game long before that.
Then World of Warcraft came around.
Been playing off and on ever since.
So I'm about as "old school" and "hardcore" as you can get, but I'm also much older and wiser now then I was as a kid and teenager. I also have a lot more going on in my life.
And I still think World of Warcraft is the best MMORPG released to date and I could tell you exactly why.
pfft...noob..I pvp'd on pacman, pk'd in space invaders, the version with the coloured overlay...thats how hardcore I am.
haha, I love how people throw around their mmo experience like some virtual schwang swinging in the wind
Blizzard do get it though. They cather to both the casual and the hardcore. See the success Diablo had. Very easy to understand and play but quite hard at hell difficulty, not to talk about pvp. Hell, even Diablo2 is still being played online ffs. That should say a thing or two about Blizzard as a developer. Yes, I know it was Blizzard North that made Diablo, but it was, and still is Blizzard who keep that game alive, and patch it now and then.
Does the OP believe everything he reads from a developer?? i mean what developer on this planet would tell you truth when in marketing mode?they 100% of the time ALWAYS hype up their game and tell the people what they want to hear,it is always marketing BS.
This SC2 is actually the same over the head view garbage they do with Diablo and the overall quality of the engine is horrible.They are doing there usual rehash of old ideas and old game engines and trying to convince the dummies out there,they are getting something new and unique,neither is true.
If Blizzard wa so sure of their ability and their game,they would have made SC2 years ago and not canceled it at least once,probably twice.I mean the SC:Ghost was already being made,and they purchased that company,so why did it disband?They only got brave enough,once the cash rolled in from WOW,to even consider a rehash of the older SC.If anyone of sane mind thinks WOW was HARDCORE,,rflmao,they need to give their head a shake,WOW is anything but,it was designed for the younger immature crowd.Blizzard actually designs their games for the EXACT opposite of what they are claiming,very funny how pathetic their marketing ploys are,yet even more amazing is how many buy into their BS.
There is no longer 10 million brand new clueless gamers clammouring to get into the MMO crave,Blizzard must now try their marketing BS on more intelligent gamers and have a MUCH smaller crowd to try and fool.Their cheap designs,cheap game engines ,have very little chance of fooling people ever again.Once the masses leave WOW,Blizzard will once again be a struggling entity amongst the gaming community.There is always a very young crowd looking for simplistic,cheap games like Diablo,but there is far too many choices for that age group ,to hope Blizzard can lock them all up under their wing.Besides that Diablo type games are now old school,we have moved beyond that phase.
Good thing they enticed Activision to partnership,they will need them down the road.If the rumors were correct about WOW's cost,then they must have a VERY inept loose ship for spending money,that game should have cost them VERY little to develope.They had the know how from former SOE staff,they had the template to copy[EQ],all they had to do is roll with it.
The same will happen with SC2,they already have the template or game,i am sure you will be getting the left overs already designed by the developer Blizzard bought out the rights to SC:Ghost.Blizzard will be trying to sell the public a rehashed older game as something new..bah.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
I guess I was kind of vague in my response, but yea I just watched the Cthun raid,, and talking to a friend who was a hardcore raider in wow,, it's figuring out how to be the encounter that is the tough part and the challenging part. Once you've figured out the trick, it's just a rinse repeat cycle. That is why I wish there was a way for epic encounters to sort of random up, so what worked once, might not work next time.
This is also why I prefer group vs group and RvR combat. Each battle is it's own challenge and no two are exactly alike. There is much more randomness involved.
Does the OP believe everything he reads from a developer?? i mean what developer on this planet would tell you truth when in marketing mode?they 100% of the time ALWAYS hype up their game and tell the people what they want to hear,it is always marketing BS. This SC2 is actually the same over the head view garbage they do with Diablo and the overall quality of the engine is horrible.They are doing there usual rehash of old ideas and old game engines and trying to convince the dummies out there,they are getting something new and unique,neither is true. If Blizzard wa so sure of their ability and their game,they would have made SC2 years ago and not canceled it at least once,probably twice.I mean the SC:Ghost was already being made,and they purchased that company,so why did it disband?They only got brave enough,once the cash rolled in from WOW,to even consider a rehash of the older SC.If anyone of sane mind thinks WOW was HARDCORE,,rflmao,they need to give their head a shake,WOW is anything but,it was designed for the younger immature crowd.Blizzard actually designs their games for the EXACT opposite of what they are claiming,very funny how pathetic their marketing ploys are,yet even more amazing is how many buy into their BS. There is no longer 10 million brand new clueless gamers clammouring to get into the MMO crave,Blizzard must now try their marketing BS on more intelligent gamers and have a MUCH smaller crowd to try and fool.Their cheap designs,cheap game engines ,have very little chance of fooling people ever again.Once the masses leave WOW,Blizzard will once again be a struggling entity amongst the gaming community.There is always a very young crowd looking for simplistic,cheap games like Diablo,but there is far too many choices for that age group ,to hope Blizzard can lock them all up under their wing.Besides that Diablo type games are now old school,we have moved beyond that phase. Good thing they enticed Activision to partnership,they will need them down the road.If the rumors were correct about WOW's cost,then they must have a VERY inept loose ship for spending money,that game should have cost them VERY little to develope.They had the know how from former SOE staff,they had the template to copy[EQ],all they had to do is roll with it. The same will happen with SC2,they already have the template or game,i am sure you will be getting the left overs already designed by the developer Blizzard bought out the rights to SC:Ghost.Blizzard will be trying to sell the public a rehashed older game as something new..bah.
Sounds like a hate with no evidence. As for SC2 being 'rehased', why fix something that isn't broken?
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
I guess I was kind of vague in my response, but yea I just watched the Cthun raid,, and talking to a friend who was a hardcore raider in wow,, it's figuring out how to be the encounter that is the tough part and the challenging part. Once you've figured out the trick, it's just a rinse repeat cycle. That is why I wish there was a way for epic encounters to sort of random up, so what worked once, might not work next time.
This is also why I prefer group vs group and RvR combat. Each battle is it's own challenge and no two are exactly alike. There is much more randomness involved.
I learned a lot about how "easy" the stuff can be in WoW when I played it. Learn the script, follow the script, win the encounter. The "hard" part was gearing up to fight the encounters -- earlier on anyway. I haven't played the game since shortly after TBC shipped.
When the encounters aren't known yet (as in someone hasn't said "here's how you do it"), you find entire servers unable to progress and mass complaints posted about "keeping secrets" and the like. Once someone lays out the first "winning" script to follow, others then vary it slightly and you end up with a few different tactics. Hell, when TBC first shipped there was nothing about the hard mode instances out there. I did a group and they hemmed and hawed about doing an encounter without instructions so I went to a wiki and posted our general thoughts on it as "tactics". I then told the group leader there was a tactic out there, he looked it up and was willing to try it... 2 shots and we beat the boss with him saying "I should post out the changes we found, that info wasn't fully complete on the fight..."
That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn*
I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around.
Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn* I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around. Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn* I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around. Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
Actually you'd be amazed at how often PvE folks "lose". soloing -- dead. Group runs -- dead. Raid runs -- wipe. etc... They "lose" all the time in PvE just like PvP. The PvP myth that PvE folks just can't stand to lose is as inaccurate as the PvE myth that PvP has more griefers. *BOTH* are very inaccurate. They are 2 different styles of play based upon competition *AND* cooperation. In PvP you have as much (or more) group activity as you do in PvE -- it's more the goals of play that people like and dislike.
To put this in perspective another way: If someone in PvE exploits a bug to beat an encounter, others will be "outraged" but in a far more detached fashion than when you got your butt handed to because your opponent exploited a bug. One is "unfair" from a distance while the other is right in your face with ranking, standing, gear loss, etc...
They want it to be an important factor because they spend a lot of time obtaining it. They want to see the fruits of their labour. You want items to only have a small effect on pvp, and thats fine, thats your opinion. But I like to see a big improvement in power when I find a very rare item or an item i had to work hard for. Ok, well this brings up the question. If working hard in a pve environment netted you a rare item. Would you be opposed to pvp accomplishments netting players their own set of skills which made their character more powerful that you could not get through pve ?
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
They want it to be an important factor because they spend a lot of time obtaining it. They want to see the fruits of their labour. You want items to only have a small effect on pvp, and thats fine, thats your opinion. But I like to see a big improvement in power when I find a very rare item or an item i had to work hard for. Ok, well this brings up the question. If working hard in a pve environment netted you a rare item. Would you be opposed to pvp accomplishments netting players their own set of skills which made their character more powerful that you could not get through pve ?
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn* I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around. Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
Yeah - Lovely - I was just bringing up another low level (12) alt in WoW and was running my new Night Elf Hunter with his Durotar Tiger pet (Yeah a HORDE pet at level 12 - WHICH I GOT BY SOLOING) - when I ran into a GAGGLE of troops trying to take out the three baddies at the Pumpkin farm in SE Elwin Forest (a failed Lock without a pet and 2 fighter types. (They had to get her necklace back)
By the time I got there this GROUP of FIVE misfits - including a level 12 PALLY who was almost dead - and they had lost two others already - were beating on the two fighter type baddies - while the female who was the object of the quest in the first place was nuking all of them from the rear. I suppose I should have just stood around and watched while the whole crew got their butts wiped out, but care-bear me I just put a couple of arrows into her and the other two and ended the (FIGHT?)
I have done this same quest several tomes SOLO with a level 10 Lock and just my imp . When are these MORONS going to learn how to play their class without relying on a HERD of troops to do the job for them? And these IDIOTS are ragging on ME for not wanting to group? And why the hell SHOULD NOT the SOLOER get all the goodies if they do ALL the work?
Blizzard doesn't cater to the hardcore. They cater to the mainstream carebears who think they are now hardcore because they have the new purples first before Timmy, Timmy's Mom, and Timmy's Grandpa gets them. The raids in WoW are not hard. You want hard raids? Go play EQ PoT. Blizzard made a solid game that has swept through every household and gained a lot of popularity, however, just because it is popular does not mean it is great. Numbers are not everything people. Blizzard is short on content and short on producing meaningful endgame accomplishments. They give you an expansion, but not the whole thing at once, which to me seems a bit of a scam and trying to pull the wool over our eyes. What really happens when they release an expansion is they release 1/3 of it and release the other 2/3 in 4-6 month increments.They cater to the first time MMO player, they cater to the casuals, they cater to the carebears, and they cater to the 'hardcores' who have nothing else to play, but who will drop WoW once something more challenging yet solid. That's what no MMO has been able to do so far. They have yet to produce a SOLID game because they release too soon. To simply put it Blizzard/WoW is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.
Of course Blizzard is hardcore. It took months for ONE guild to achieve the Ulduar final boss achievement ... and of ALL things it was A Chinese guild to do it. You know the ones that are not even supposed to be playing it ))).
Blizzard is the absolute master of active paid subscriptions and having the number one PC best seller of 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, ...
It is a jack of all trades and a master in all.
It owns MORE than all other PC games combined.
And OP: of course their target is the hardcore public.
No one in these pages could even achieve the hardest fights in WotLK 3.1 and 3.2 is already in within a few weeks.
ALL BIG mouths, but NO skills. That's very clear when I look at the armory. ))
Of course it took months for a guild to complete WOW's hardest quest, no one with any real skill still plays WOW, what did you expect?
You make it too easy.
The sub numbers are relevant only in terms of how popular the game it is, and not how "good" the game is. All depends on how you define good, and WOW fails in many places depending how you look at it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I learned a lot about how "easy" the stuff can be in WoW when I played it. Learn the script, follow the script, win the encounter. The "hard" part was gearing up to fight the encounters -- earlier on anyway. I haven't played the game since shortly after TBC shipped. When the encounters aren't known yet (as in someone hasn't said "here's how you do it"), you find entire servers unable to progress and mass complaints posted about "keeping secrets" and the like. Once someone lays out the first "winning" script to follow, others then vary it slightly and you end up with a few different tactics. Hell, when TBC first shipped there was nothing about the hard mode instances out there. I did a group and they hemmed and hawed about doing an encounter without instructions so I went to a wiki and posted our general thoughts on it as "tactics". I then told the group leader there was a tactic out there, he looked it up and was willing to try it... 2 shots and we beat the boss with him saying "I should post out the changes we found, that info wasn't fully complete on the fight..." That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn* I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around. Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
Congratulations! You have just discovered the process of playing against a video game.
P.S. Wizardry is so full of fail, its mind boggling where he gets his ideas from.
Originally posted by Zorndorf The problem is ... in WOTLK you have half a dozen "different "fights to bosses: it is called downing the bosses in various hard modes and getting better gear and achievements/titles. And with 25 people it is about coordination. ------ >It is like a dancing contest: even with the steps known .... one or two people "out of step" makes for some very nasty surprises in the dancing contest. Those who downplay Ulduar PVE achievements indeed never made the grade. The tric was to include "hardest modes" so it takes sometimes months to have a first world down, so the videos don't help much in the first weeks ))). And no the hardest modes are not "simply" more health to bosses, but sometimes complete different tactics used. As shown by 99.99999% of the armory.
In other world, they make the content seems like a lot more buy using the same content several times with different difficulty... Am I the only one that thinks that is very lazy from the richest MMO company in the world?
Sure, Guildwars does the same thing but killing the same boss many times are still boring no matter how much the difficulty increase (and when I say many I mean many, you also have to actually get the gear).
To me it sounds like they are filling out the content as much as possible while they are working on their new game.
They want it to be an important factor because they spend a lot of time obtaining it. They want to see the fruits of their labour. You want items to only have a small effect on pvp, and thats fine, thats your opinion. But I like to see a big improvement in power when I find a very rare item or an item i had to work hard for. Ok, well this brings up the question. If working hard in a pve environment netted you a rare item. Would you be opposed to pvp accomplishments netting players their own set of skills which made their character more powerful that you could not get through pve ?
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
Why the double standard?
It's not double standard.
I said that the items that should be obtained through time investment in PVP should rival those of PVE, not exceed them.
There is no reason why top end PVP gear should be stronger than top end PVE gear.
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
Why the double standard?
It's not double standard.
I said that the items that should be obtained through time investment in PVP should rival those of PVE, not exceed them.
There is no reason why top end PVP gear should be stronger than top end PVE gear.
But why not? If group gear should exceed solo gear based on the time investment or difficulty of getting these power upgrades, then PvP gear by that same argument SHOULD be more powerful. The time investment and the difficulty to reach those ranks is greater than a group's raid. Where one might take a few hours or days,, one might take weeks or months in pvp to accomplish.
So groupers although it takes them LESS time to accomplish something than a soloer or a pvp'r in their respective fields of gameplay style and generally speaking groupers have an easier time accomploshing their tasks (once they have a group and the wiki raid info, which you know they will usually) deserve better gear than other player's in game.
I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.
I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.
Amen to that. But it wasn't always so, there was a time when 10 year old kids actually couldn't play a lot of the game.
Maybe they mean easy to learn - Hard to master for anyone with a family, work and a life?
Actually you'd be amazed at how often PvE folks "lose". soloing -- dead. Group runs -- dead. Raid runs -- wipe. etc... They "lose" all the time in PvE just like PvP. The PvP myth that PvE folks just can't stand to lose is as inaccurate as the PvE myth that PvP has more griefers. *BOTH* are very inaccurate. They are 2 different styles of play based upon competition *AND* cooperation. In PvP you have as much (or more) group activity as you do in PvE -- it's more the goals of play that people like and dislike. To put this in perspective another way: If someone in PvE exploits a bug to beat an encounter, others will be "outraged" but in a far more detached fashion than when you got your butt handed to because your opponent exploited a bug. One is "unfair" from a distance while the other is right in your face with ranking, standing, gear loss, etc...
ACtually no I wouldn't. PLaying games like City of Heroes, Warhammer, and resubbing to DaoC, all with low populations, I have to solo a LOT. My first 50 in DaoC I solo'd from 48-50 back when levelling was long. I solo on most of my characters because I'm not into large crappy guilds, with people on powertrips over virtual politics, or full of beggars and idiots. I like a small personal guild. Many times, because of that choice, I will have to solo.
I've been on raids and wiped, I"ve been solo an wiped a lot. I think you mistook what I was trying to say, or I worded it poorly, so I'll try to clarify it.
People who LOVE the loot fest of gear being overpowered and being the deciding factor in combat AI or PvP NEED and WANT that crutch and advantage. WIthout the crutch of having all this great gear, many of these loot whores know fully well that their gear makes the difference. That doesn't mean all PVE'rs are like that.
The way I figure it a large portion of PVE'rs would go after loot even if it wasn't stat enhanced because they like to collect and they'll want that shiny sword because it looks badass. Another group of players get the gear because that's all there is to do. Another group get the gear because you need it to be competitive in pvp. BUT the final group that defend the OP'd nature of items are the ones I have a problem with. Because they are the ones who rely on this gear knowing full well they have better opportunities to get it than others always putting them at an advantage. I could be wrong, but from all my years of gaming, people tend to fall into one of those categories.
as for exploits, Depends on the nature of the exploit and if it's available to everyone. In DaoC you could pbaoe through some walls in the keeps, but everyone had this ability so it didn't bother me. It was just bad coding but everyone benefitted persay. Now in later years during New Frontiers and after catacombs a class called the Bainshee had a cone attack that could nuke through doors at a keep that nobody else could nuke through. This put only one class and one realm at a distinct advantage. That exploit was one defining factor in me quitting.
I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.
I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).
Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often. Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.
That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.
I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).
Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often. Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.
That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.
I do get your point but at the same time this line of thinking as flawed as it is and was created by Blizzard and those damage BG dps/heal charts.
Your final totals do no reflect your overall contribution. They give an aspect of it, which is completely reliant on circumstance more than anything. You fight a low level character you do more damage, fight a high one you do less. So if every character you kill in a BG is lower level your dps goes through the chart if someone else has fought higher level toons the whole bg their dps is lower.
If people aren't assisting, dps goes through the roof. Healing goes through the roof. AOE splash damage increases dps ratings.
But I do understand what you're saying that people who play the NOT OP"d Fotm class generally do try harder than people who gravitate to the OP'd class.
A good player assists well, picks targets well, kites well, uses group vs. single mechanics well, peels well, rezzes,buffs, heals properly, I just wish people would quit using the bg charts and dps/heal numbers as a source for their arguments.
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Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
Finally, another old school MMO vet and veteran like myself who can bring some order and logic to these boards.
Thanks Gameloading, I've missed you.
I just love how people assume because I try and defend WoW that I'm some carebear noob whose first MMO was WoW. I just love it!
Let me talk plain-
I started MMOs with Ultima Online when the game was still in Beta, playing on a friends account. I didn't have my own account and play really seriously until the Trammel / Felucca split, and I spent about half my time on the Atlantic server mostly on the PvE side (Trammel) until the Factions PvP system came out.
The other half of my play time I spent on the Siege Perilous shard, which had NO Trammel and was quite "hardcore" in the FFA PvP only rule set, they even capped the number of skill/stat gains you could make in a day.
I absolutely hated Everquest. I thought it was a linear, gear oriented, level grind fest and compared to UO I thought it was total trash.
I played around a bit in Earth and Beyond, Final Fantasy XI, and ended up in Star Wars Galaxies at launch and loved that game up until the Holocron grind came out, which I thought was the absolute worst grind-heavy no-thought game system I have ever seen in any game, let along a MMORPG. It angered me so much and I thought it was so stupid i completely quit playing SWG and MMOs all together.
I wasn't even around for the Combat Upgrade or New Game Experience. I gave up on that piece of sh!t game long before that.
Then World of Warcraft came around.
Been playing off and on ever since.
So I'm about as "old school" and "hardcore" as you can get, but I'm also much older and wiser now then I was as a kid and teenager. I also have a lot more going on in my life.
And I still think World of Warcraft is the best MMORPG released to date and I could tell you exactly why.
pfft...noob..I pvp'd on pacman, pk'd in space invaders, the version with the coloured overlay...thats how hardcore I am.
haha, I love how people throw around their mmo experience like some virtual schwang swinging in the wind
Blizzard do get it though. They cather to both the casual and the hardcore. See the success Diablo had. Very easy to understand and play but quite hard at hell difficulty, not to talk about pvp. Hell, even Diablo2 is still being played online ffs. That should say a thing or two about Blizzard as a developer. Yes, I know it was Blizzard North that made Diablo, but it was, and still is Blizzard who keep that game alive, and patch it now and then.
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Does the OP believe everything he reads from a developer?? i mean what developer on this planet would tell you truth when in marketing mode?they 100% of the time ALWAYS hype up their game and tell the people what they want to hear,it is always marketing BS.
This SC2 is actually the same over the head view garbage they do with Diablo and the overall quality of the engine is horrible.They are doing there usual rehash of old ideas and old game engines and trying to convince the dummies out there,they are getting something new and unique,neither is true.
If Blizzard wa so sure of their ability and their game,they would have made SC2 years ago and not canceled it at least once,probably twice.I mean the SC:Ghost was already being made,and they purchased that company,so why did it disband?They only got brave enough,once the cash rolled in from WOW,to even consider a rehash of the older SC.If anyone of sane mind thinks WOW was HARDCORE,,rflmao,they need to give their head a shake,WOW is anything but,it was designed for the younger immature crowd.Blizzard actually designs their games for the EXACT opposite of what they are claiming,very funny how pathetic their marketing ploys are,yet even more amazing is how many buy into their BS.
There is no longer 10 million brand new clueless gamers clammouring to get into the MMO crave,Blizzard must now try their marketing BS on more intelligent gamers and have a MUCH smaller crowd to try and fool.Their cheap designs,cheap game engines ,have very little chance of fooling people ever again.Once the masses leave WOW,Blizzard will once again be a struggling entity amongst the gaming community.There is always a very young crowd looking for simplistic,cheap games like Diablo,but there is far too many choices for that age group ,to hope Blizzard can lock them all up under their wing.Besides that Diablo type games are now old school,we have moved beyond that phase.
Good thing they enticed Activision to partnership,they will need them down the road.If the rumors were correct about WOW's cost,then they must have a VERY inept loose ship for spending money,that game should have cost them VERY little to develope.They had the know how from former SOE staff,they had the template to copy[EQ],all they had to do is roll with it.
The same will happen with SC2,they already have the template or game,i am sure you will be getting the left overs already designed by the developer Blizzard bought out the rights to SC:Ghost.Blizzard will be trying to sell the public a rehashed older game as something new..bah.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
I guess I was kind of vague in my response, but yea I just watched the Cthun raid,, and talking to a friend who was a hardcore raider in wow,, it's figuring out how to be the encounter that is the tough part and the challenging part. Once you've figured out the trick, it's just a rinse repeat cycle. That is why I wish there was a way for epic encounters to sort of random up, so what worked once, might not work next time.
This is also why I prefer group vs group and RvR combat. Each battle is it's own challenge and no two are exactly alike. There is much more randomness involved.
Sounds like a hate with no evidence. As for SC2 being 'rehased', why fix something that isn't broken?
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Yep, every youtube video I've seen of any major raid is pretty much people not moving at all. This is where I agree with the soloer's that epic encounters are not necessarily difficult to accomplish if you have a solid group makeup.
Hopefully the one and probably only good thing that the industry takes from Warhammer, and City of Heroes did this somewhat as well with the mission architect, is PQ's. As technology, programming, and developers continue to evolve they will expand on this type of system to make encounters a lot more exciting and unpredictable therefore utilizing another way to up the challenge of them rather than just increasing hitpoints and damage.
Someone never played Cthun, Archimonde (easy but if you were with idiots, Oh God), Any boss in Sunwell... or watched any videos on them , probably a few bosses in Ulduar but i stopped playing before that.
I guess I was kind of vague in my response, but yea I just watched the Cthun raid,, and talking to a friend who was a hardcore raider in wow,, it's figuring out how to be the encounter that is the tough part and the challenging part. Once you've figured out the trick, it's just a rinse repeat cycle. That is why I wish there was a way for epic encounters to sort of random up, so what worked once, might not work next time.
This is also why I prefer group vs group and RvR combat. Each battle is it's own challenge and no two are exactly alike. There is much more randomness involved.
I learned a lot about how "easy" the stuff can be in WoW when I played it. Learn the script, follow the script, win the encounter. The "hard" part was gearing up to fight the encounters -- earlier on anyway. I haven't played the game since shortly after TBC shipped.
When the encounters aren't known yet (as in someone hasn't said "here's how you do it"), you find entire servers unable to progress and mass complaints posted about "keeping secrets" and the like. Once someone lays out the first "winning" script to follow, others then vary it slightly and you end up with a few different tactics. Hell, when TBC first shipped there was nothing about the hard mode instances out there. I did a group and they hemmed and hawed about doing an encounter without instructions so I went to a wiki and posted our general thoughts on it as "tactics". I then told the group leader there was a tactic out there, he looked it up and was willing to try it... 2 shots and we beat the boss with him saying "I should post out the changes we found, that info wasn't fully complete on the fight..."
That's how most of your fights go in WoW. Follow the instruction manual to beat it but don't try and figure it out yourself -- leave that up to the experts. *yawn*
I'm not into the PvP stuff much. That's a "win-lose" scenario. There is no win-win in PvP. In PvE there is no loser in it. The 2 ways of playing are like mountain climbing versus football. Both can be team oriented but in 1, you'll always have a loser and I prefer winners all around.
Oh, and yes, I have "ranked up" pretty well in PvP and run PvP raids and groups in different games. I just prefer a lot of cheering instead of "stomped those guys brains out!" because we had the better gear...
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
Actually you'd be amazed at how often PvE folks "lose". soloing -- dead. Group runs -- dead. Raid runs -- wipe. etc... They "lose" all the time in PvE just like PvP. The PvP myth that PvE folks just can't stand to lose is as inaccurate as the PvE myth that PvP has more griefers. *BOTH* are very inaccurate. They are 2 different styles of play based upon competition *AND* cooperation. In PvP you have as much (or more) group activity as you do in PvE -- it's more the goals of play that people like and dislike.
To put this in perspective another way: If someone in PvE exploits a bug to beat an encounter, others will be "outraged" but in a far more detached fashion than when you got your butt handed to because your opponent exploited a bug. One is "unfair" from a distance while the other is right in your face with ranking, standing, gear loss, etc...
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
Why the double standard?
Yea, I"ve been arguing with some other dude all day about gear making too much of a difference in pvp. At end game nowadays, there is generally one set of armor/weapons worth using and the others are crap.
I don't know if PvP is a win-lose scenario. We used to fight tougher and better players in daoc 8 mans and the fight was what mattered in those situations. If we took down 1 or 2 players in those groups being much higher Realm Rank than our group we still had a sense of accomplishment. You don't get better by playing against people worse than you or AI. But that's the problem with a lot of anti-pvp'rs. They don't like and cant' handle losing. It's a mentality that permeates many games and even real life nowadays. People do not want competition. That is why they want overpowered gear. They use wiki's for encounters. They want to win all the time which to me is completely boring. There is no acheivement in doing something that you are gauranteed a win on.
Yeah - Lovely - I was just bringing up another low level (12) alt in WoW and was running my new Night Elf Hunter with his Durotar Tiger pet (Yeah a HORDE pet at level 12 - WHICH I GOT BY SOLOING) - when I ran into a GAGGLE of troops trying to take out the three baddies at the Pumpkin farm in SE Elwin Forest (a failed Lock without a pet and 2 fighter types. (They had to get her necklace back)
By the time I got there this GROUP of FIVE misfits - including a level 12 PALLY who was almost dead - and they had lost two others already - were beating on the two fighter type baddies - while the female who was the object of the quest in the first place was nuking all of them from the rear. I suppose I should have just stood around and watched while the whole crew got their butts wiped out, but care-bear me I just put a couple of arrows into her and the other two and ended the (FIGHT?)
I have done this same quest several tomes SOLO with a level 10 Lock and just my imp . When are these MORONS going to learn how to play their class without relying on a HERD of troops to do the job for them? And these IDIOTS are ragging on ME for not wanting to group? And why the hell SHOULD NOT the SOLOER get all the goodies if they do ALL the work?
Blizzard always gets it, and they never get it either.
Of course Blizzard is hardcore. It took months for ONE guild to achieve the Ulduar final boss achievement ... and of ALL things it was A Chinese guild to do it. You know the ones that are not even supposed to be playing it
))).
Blizzard is the absolute master of active paid subscriptions and having the number one PC best seller of 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, ...
It is a jack of all trades and a master in all.
It owns MORE than all other PC games combined.
And OP: of course their target is the hardcore public.
No one in these pages could even achieve the hardest fights in WotLK 3.1 and 3.2 is already in within a few weeks.
ALL BIG mouths, but NO skills. That's very clear when I look at the armory.
))
Of course it took months for a guild to complete WOW's hardest quest, no one with any real skill still plays WOW, what did you expect?
You make it too easy.
The sub numbers are relevant only in terms of how popular the game it is, and not how "good" the game is. All depends on how you define good, and WOW fails in many places depending how you look at it.
But you never accept that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If Blizzard really did get it, SC2 would have a LAN option.
Congratulations! You have just discovered the process of playing against a video game.
P.S. Wizardry is so full of fail, its mind boggling where he gets his ideas from.
In other world, they make the content seems like a lot more buy using the same content several times with different difficulty... Am I the only one that thinks that is very lazy from the richest MMO company in the world?
Sure, Guildwars does the same thing but killing the same boss many times are still boring no matter how much the difficulty increase (and when I say many I mean many, you also have to actually get the gear).
To me it sounds like they are filling out the content as much as possible while they are working on their new game.
I would be opposed to that, there is no reason why people who spend more time in pvp should be more powerful than those who spend more time in PVE.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
Why the double standard?
It's not double standard.
I said that the items that should be obtained through time investment in PVP should rival those of PVE, not exceed them.
There is no reason why top end PVP gear should be stronger than top end PVE gear.
So you're saying that time committed is greater than difficulty? Otherwise, why should someone who PVE's be more powerful than someone who spends more time in PvP ?
Also in a previous post you said you like to see a significant increase in power when you find a rare item that you've worked hard for. Well someone who PVP's and earns greater power through those means has worked hard and in some cases you could say had to work harder because they don't win every fight and sure don't win as many fights as someone who is doing a pve encounter.
Why the double standard?
It's not double standard.
I said that the items that should be obtained through time investment in PVP should rival those of PVE, not exceed them.
There is no reason why top end PVP gear should be stronger than top end PVE gear.
But why not? If group gear should exceed solo gear based on the time investment or difficulty of getting these power upgrades, then PvP gear by that same argument SHOULD be more powerful. The time investment and the difficulty to reach those ranks is greater than a group's raid. Where one might take a few hours or days,, one might take weeks or months in pvp to accomplish.
So groupers although it takes them LESS time to accomplish something than a soloer or a pvp'r in their respective fields of gameplay style and generally speaking groupers have an easier time accomploshing their tasks (once they have a group and the wiki raid info, which you know they will usually) deserve better gear than other player's in game.
I agree that games such as StarCraft and WarCraft 3 are games that are easy to learn and hard to master. However a game like World of WarCraft is on the opposite end of the spectrum - easy to learn and easy to master. WoW still does cater to the hardcore, but more in terms of rigorous raiding schedules and availability of time than skill requirements. To master a game like StarCraft you need to be skilled - very skilled. You can, however, be mediocre at most games and still master World of WarCraft.
Amen to that. But it wasn't always so, there was a time when 10 year old kids actually couldn't play a lot of the game.
Maybe they mean easy to learn - Hard to master for anyone with a family, work and a life?
ACtually no I wouldn't. PLaying games like City of Heroes, Warhammer, and resubbing to DaoC, all with low populations, I have to solo a LOT. My first 50 in DaoC I solo'd from 48-50 back when levelling was long. I solo on most of my characters because I'm not into large crappy guilds, with people on powertrips over virtual politics, or full of beggars and idiots. I like a small personal guild. Many times, because of that choice, I will have to solo.
I've been on raids and wiped, I"ve been solo an wiped a lot. I think you mistook what I was trying to say, or I worded it poorly, so I'll try to clarify it.
People who LOVE the loot fest of gear being overpowered and being the deciding factor in combat AI or PvP NEED and WANT that crutch and advantage. WIthout the crutch of having all this great gear, many of these loot whores know fully well that their gear makes the difference. That doesn't mean all PVE'rs are like that.
The way I figure it a large portion of PVE'rs would go after loot even if it wasn't stat enhanced because they like to collect and they'll want that shiny sword because it looks badass. Another group of players get the gear because that's all there is to do. Another group get the gear because you need it to be competitive in pvp. BUT the final group that defend the OP'd nature of items are the ones I have a problem with. Because they are the ones who rely on this gear knowing full well they have better opportunities to get it than others always putting them at an advantage. I could be wrong, but from all my years of gaming, people tend to fall into one of those categories.
as for exploits, Depends on the nature of the exploit and if it's available to everyone. In DaoC you could pbaoe through some walls in the keeps, but everyone had this ability so it didn't bother me. It was just bad coding but everyone benefitted persay. Now in later years during New Frontiers and after catacombs a class called the Bainshee had a cone attack that could nuke through doors at a keep that nobody else could nuke through. This put only one class and one realm at a distinct advantage. That exploit was one defining factor in me quitting.
I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).
Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often. Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.
That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I have to disagree i have played wow a lot, and its odd no matter where me and my brother god , no matter what guild, or people we are group with we ALWAYS out dps and or heal others. Im talkign about on illidian. (Tho i have not grouped with everyoen on illidian).
Wow's raiding susyem is not everyone equals pro. IT is 5-10 people out of 25 are very goods players, another 5-10 are good, and the rest 15-5 are just ok with a 1-3 baddies often. Now there are some guilds that only have great players but they are rare. IF you do not realize this your proably just good and not great. Great players often use odd classes to top the dps. Like ele shammies when they didn't top metere or hunters when they didn't top meter, or warriors when they didn't top metere, etc.
That being said even if you are a great player the difference bettween a great player in wow and another game (daoc as an example) is giant. See if wow movement and position and tactics are all dumb, smash away and no brainers and so are most reactions. This was a very complex facet of daoc's game play and thus a better player could futher inflict damage becuase of it.
I do get your point but at the same time this line of thinking as flawed as it is and was created by Blizzard and those damage BG dps/heal charts.
Your final totals do no reflect your overall contribution. They give an aspect of it, which is completely reliant on circumstance more than anything. You fight a low level character you do more damage, fight a high one you do less. So if every character you kill in a BG is lower level your dps goes through the chart if someone else has fought higher level toons the whole bg their dps is lower.
If people aren't assisting, dps goes through the roof. Healing goes through the roof. AOE splash damage increases dps ratings.
But I do understand what you're saying that people who play the NOT OP"d Fotm class generally do try harder than people who gravitate to the OP'd class.
A good player assists well, picks targets well, kites well, uses group vs. single mechanics well, peels well, rezzes,buffs, heals properly, I just wish people would quit using the bg charts and dps/heal numbers as a source for their arguments.