So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.
I've solo'd, raided and been involved in small groups quite a bit. First off, I don't see where you can decide other people's fates just on your opinions. I pay 14.99 for a game, as well as you do and the same as the solo player does. Does your decision to neglect real life and spend the most possible time "in game" actually make you more "deserving" of some equipment? If you want to be successful in the mmorpg market you have to cater to all the players. If you want to charge more for the "hardcore" players I suppose that would be acceptable to everyone. But saying the solo player that pays the exact same fee you do doesn't deserve equipment that is similar to yours is just stupid. If you can't make "most" people happy in a game, then those people will find another game to play. I agree that more time spent in game should equate into better equipment, but I don't think it should be limited to raid only. Some raids are just scripted and easily done now by guilds, I've been more challenged by some solo situations in mmorpgs than raids at times. Everyone is entitled to their opinions this much is true, but while we all pay the same monthly fee I think we should all be treated fairly similar whether that be as the soloer, the small grouper or the raider.
So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.
And if I want to do this content, but it is designed in such a way that I cannot access it due to the design of it? Take gear out of your sentence and think about it for a second. You obviously play WOW from this post. I would love to complete all the content availble and be able to fight and beat all the raid content in the game given the time to do it, but it is designed so that only those who can play 4+ hours a night for 4+ nights a week can ever access the content.
I don't want free gear, I want to experience content. Hell, I raided for 3 years in WOW as one of the more hardcore players and when real life stepped up and limited my playtime, I found that I could not even get in guilds that do raid and actually make progress because they all wanted 4+ nights a week with 4+ hours a night and time to farm insane ammounts of mats for raids. I don't have that time and am stuck never being able to do this content because even if I played WOW for 100 years, I would never have the time to commit to access the content in the game.
In BC when I lost playtime, I was stuck running heroics that I needed nothing from. I grinded damn near every rep , to include sporaggar to max. I had run Kara to the point that I had every drop I could possibly use. I was very skilled and even in PUG's doing Heroics had several ask me if I would join their guilds. Well, once I got them through Kara, Gruul, and Mag, I was booted because I could not raid enough.
Explain to me who someone like me ever gets to do this content? Stop focusing on gear for one second and answer me how I, who has 2 maybe 3 days a week they can play will ever get to complete the content available in the game? Hell, Maybe when I am level 100 I can go back and solo that content, but then I will still never get to do the level 100 content.
When you can answer why me, who pays the same monthly fee you do, will never have full access to the game, then you can start telling me how people don't deserve stuff. Because until then you just sound stupid and by my calculation don't deserve to breathe the same air the rest of the world does.
So I go back to the original topic, solo players do not "deserve" the same gear as small group players, and small group players don't "deserve" the same gear as raiders because they are not participating in the content that requires this gear and as such rewards it.
And if I want to do this content, but it is designed in such a way that I cannot access it due to the design of it? Take gear out of your sentence and think about it for a second. You obviously play WOW from this post. I would love to complete all the content availble and be able to fight and beat all the raid content in the game given the time to do it, but it is designed so that only those who can play 4+ hours a night for 4+ nights a week can ever access the content.
I don't want free gear, I want to experience content. Hell, I raided for 3 years in WOW as one of the more hardcore players and when real life stepped up and limited my playtime, I found that I could not even get in guilds that do raid and actually make progress because they all wanted 4+ nights a week with 4+ hours a night and time to farm insane ammounts of mats for raids. I don't have that time and am stuck never being able to do this content because even if I played WOW for 100 years, I would never have the time to commit to access the content in the game.
In BC when I lost playtime, I was stuck running heroics that I needed nothing from. I grinded damn near every rep , to include sporaggar to max. I had run Kara to the point that I had every drop I could possibly use. I was very skilled and even in PUG's doing Heroics had several ask me if I would join their guilds. Well, once I got them through Kara, Gruul, and Mag, I was booted because I could not raid enough.
Explain to me who someone like me ever gets to do this content? Stop focusing on gear for one second and answer me how I, who has 2 maybe 3 days a week they can play will ever get to complete the content available in the game? Hell, Maybe when I am level 100 I can go back and solo that content, but then I will still never get to do the level 100 content.
When you can answer why me, who pays the same monthly fee you do, will never have full access to the game, then you can start telling me how people don't deserve stuff. Because until then you just sound stupid and by my calculation don't deserve to breathe the same air the rest of the world does.
I do have one question and I know it's going to come across as smartass but it's really not meant to be. Have you completed every quest available in every zone at every level from 1-80 ?
The reason I ask is because I consistently hear soloer's complaining about not doing all the content of a game, but how many have completed every quest possible, even if it's now 10,20,40 levels below them?
I really think the issue is ALL about gear /loot and NOT the content at all. This is one reason why I hate that you cannot buy,trade, or give the best items away if you want and/or player crafted items being the best in game.
A lot of soloer's also say they cannot do content that they so desperately want to do. Well if you really really really want to do something you will find away. It sounds a lot more like , "Damnit, I can't find raids to fit in conveniently with my schedule!" I've got a movie to go to,, school, work,, kids,, friends coming over,, soccer practice,,, tv shows to watch....
Now don't get me wrong I understand your position and I do not like that gear is not attainable by all,, but if that really is the core issue than just say it is. If it really is just seeing the content, you'd make it happen if it was that important to you.
Well, I appriciate your honesty Greenie and will not slam you for it, Up through BC I pretty much had done everything, or was in the process of trying to complete everything.
I had grinded every rep, completed every heroic, did every 5 man, done Kara, done Gruul, Mag, SSC and TK up to end boss, but hit a brick wall. Yes there were like 2 reps I had left to finish when I quit, but when that was the only thing you had left to do, you get pretty bored.
I quit before WOTLK and even though I had some friends try to get me back into it, I just couldn't. Too many bad memories at this point. To me, it was never about the gear, as given the time and the chance to do the content, gear would come. My issue came with not even being able to access the content. The only things I never really liked doing in WOW was PvP, because coming from EvE and DAOC , I just didn't like WoW's PvP much, and played for the PvE content. I was a huge Warcraft fan from back in the day and it killed me to never even get the chance to complete content centered around the Heroes of the series.
Sad thing, is that I was, and probably still could be a pretty good player. But, I see it more and more in games today, especailly WOW and post WOW games, that certain content seems to be beyond the reach of those that cannot play on hardcore schedules. Hell, at one point I even tried to talk friends of mine into starting a casual raiding guild that raids only on weekends, but we could never get enough people to actually get anything done.
On a side note though, I do think developers could do more to develope solo and small group content. I am not saying equal gear, but at least do more to keep some of the more "hardcore" casuals busy.
Also, if you are a casual that want equal rewards for not doing the content, I agree with most of these people that you should not get it. Rewards are for completing content, not just standing around in game. If you CHOOSE not to do the content, then don't bitch about not getting the reward.
Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my last post, it is just I get so sick of reading these posts. I see basically boil it down to a few types of people in most of these.
1: People who choose not to do content and want to get rewards
2: People who want to see their playstyle developed more
3: Hardcores that sadly have too big of egos to admit there are casuals out there that can show them up if given the chance
4: casuals like me that really just want to be able to access the content and are willing to work for any rewards the may get
Nah, I understand your frustration and thanks for taking my responses well.
I am not personally a fan of large raids. I enjoyed raids in Shrouded Aisles to Galladoria and the Dragon in Sheeroe Hills was fun but as time has progressed I pretty much only enjoy running in one solid group. Part of that is due to DaoC RvR and your group being the most important part of any situation. The other part is it is manageable and the social ties are generally closer. That's just my personality, I'll talk to anyone but I keep the people I trust limited and close.
I think developers have done a disservice to players with the content they create. Epic encounters can be fun, but when that's the basis for your endgame I think it's destined for tedium.
I prefer player driven content, and I'll always prefer RvR. PVE is just dull after you've seen the dungeon once. Games really need to provide players something to fight for at endgame instead of just loot. And they probably should limit low-level content to one zone. Think about it, do you really need a starting zone for EVERY race?? I'd rather the 4 other starting zones be incorporated into endgame content by adding more single group or solo dungeons.
It would be nice to see games add more puzzles , mysteries, and story to the dungeons.
The problem with this gear argument is that in games like WoW, once the player reaches max level, gear becomes an alternative way to advance your character. Allowing raiders access to better gear than every one else is basically like allowing only a select group of people to reach level 80 and have everyone else stuck at level 70.
Not to mention the fact that raid gear makes almost every other activity easier. Remember the pre-BC days when raiders dominated PvP because their gear trivialized virtually every encounter with a non-raider wearing some greens and blues?
My personal experience with this was when BG's first came out, me( a rogue) and another rogue, both in greens and blues, tried to take out a fully epic'ed out warrior. He killed us both and had HP enough to continue fighting. It felt like we were barely scratching him while it took him two-three hits to kill each of us. That's not fun.
Which brings me to my next point. Games are suppose to be fun and rewarding for everyone. Not just the select few who choose to participate in a time intensive activity. Allowing a certain group of players to use the best gear for all activities makes those activities not fun for the majority of the population who do not have access to that gear for one reason or another.
Restrict raid gear to raid instances and encounters only, and I don't have a problem with raiders getting overpowered gear. However, I still remember the raider uproar when Resilience and PvP gear was introduced. Raiders lost their ez-mode and much whining happened. Until Blizzard allowed people to get PvP gear through raids and other PvE activities and completely trivialized the whole game even more.
The problem with this gear argument is that in games like WoW, once the player reaches max level, gear becomes an alternative way to advance your character. Allowing raiders access to better gear than every one else is basically like allowing only a select group of people to reach level 80 and have everyone else stuck at level 70. Not to mention the fact that raid gear makes almost every other activity easier. Remember the pre-BC days when raiders dominated PvP because their gear trivialized virtually every encounter with a non-raider wearing some greens and blues? My personal experience with this was when BG's first came out, me( a rogue) and another rogue, both in greens and blues, tried to take out a fully epic'ed out warrior. He killed us both and had HP enough to continue fighting. It felt like we were barely scratching him while it took him two-three hits to kill each of us. That's not fun. Which brings me to my next point. Games are suppose to be fun and rewarding for everyone. Not just the select few who choose to participate in a time intensive activity. Allowing a certain group of players to use the best gear for all activities makes those activities not fun for the majority of the population who do not have access to that gear for one reason or another. Restrict raid gear to raid instances and encounters only, and I don't have a problem with raiders getting overpowered gear. However, I still remember the raider uproar when Resilience and PvP gear was introduced. Raiders lost their ez-mode and much whining happened. Until Blizzard allowed people to get PvP gear through raids and other PvE activities and completely trivialized the whole game even more.
Well this goes back to my beliefs is what about getting new gear advancing your character is actually FUN ?
I can see enjoying pve encounters, I definitely understand the initial leveling up process and getting new skills/powers/talents, I understand pvp as being fun.
What I don't understand is how people are like rats to the dinner bell for a pellet when it comes to getting more gear. I don't want to continually get better gear just to have better gear and there is nothing else for me to do that is fun.
If getting better gear is nothing more than being able to do the next raid so you can get new gear to do the next raid so you can get new gear to do the next raid.... then that's pretty shitty pve imo and a very restrictive game experience.
If gear is nothing more than getting better gear to pvp better until the next pvp gear comes out so you can pvp better, than I say you've got some pretty shitty pvp in the game. Which after playing WOW I have to say it is. Warsong Gulch was fun for awhile, Arathi Basin was fun for awhile,,, but to me those are more like the lowlevel bgs in daoc and shouldn't be the focus of your pvp experience.
Here is why a solo player deserves the same gear as group players -- they pay the same $15 a month to play just the same as radiers. And if you treat them like lesser people -- you wont get their $15 a month anymore. SOE can tell you all about this as they experienced it first hand when they turned EQ into a Hardcore Raiders lovefest. Sure, the raiders loved it but all the solo, casual and small party players took their money and walked away.
It's all fairly simple, including why the OP is so upset about a player that isn't in his hardcore raiding guild getting similar items.
Things covered already, but need to be pulled for making my point:
A) Gear is WoW's real form of advancement. Your power comes from gear, and hardly much else (actually, there's another post where a test points out that only 30% of one's melee damage as a rogue comes from their abilities somewhere on this forum!)
Casuals are rarely casual by choice, but rather by being...out of college. So with a real life to attend to, they don't have the tiem to raid. But you know, they sitll want to advance. Warcraft is outright not fun when you are not able to advance anymore. Anyone remember pre-BC? 2000 60s with nothing to do?
So what the OP is upset about is that he puts a lot of effort into advancing. Or he did in earlier, harder raids. Now, because of those, he felt (feels) badass. Then when some casual is able to do just as well, his effort feels negligable to him. Keep in mind, this is exclusively time invested and absolutely nothing more.
Because we all know how much skill really matters in WoW PVP.
So truthfully, though, it boils down to that the raiders want to be better, and percieved as such, by others, because they are raiders. Their "concrete" proof of this is via their purple items. Take that away, and their egos are threatened, hence the whining.
My opinion is kind of that raiders would probably fold in any actually comepetitive game...their primary skill is simply a lack of things to do with their time. My opinion is that games need to find a way to reward skill. I haven't seen that one yet, though, in an MMO at least (maybe a little in AC or EVE though)
I will say this right now: I love group based gaming, and I especially love raids, and I have a life to live as well (going to be in college or a trade school soon).
I personally think all gear should be hand-crafted, sort of like in FF XI. Now, when it comes to gear between soloers and groups, that's another story. I think the gear should be different between the two, because I believe the gear should be fine-tuned to that person's style of play. Let's say that both a soloist and a groupie both get the same type of chestplate armor. The soloist fine-tunes his chestplate to give enhanced defenses. Meanwhile, the groupie cannot have the same level of enhanced defenses like the soloist, but he has an addition enhancement that the soloist doesn't. His chestplate has a special enhancement that gives him more extra health healing whenever a healing spell is activated on the chestplate's wearer.
So, I don't think the soloist "deserves" the same gear the group/raid person has because if you followed this example, I don't think the soloist would even want the raider's gear. This is vice-verse with the group person as well.
As a raider, one thing that always disturbs me when I read these solo vs. group arguments is that the extreme soloist keep saying that groups don't deserve the "better" equipment because grouping is easier to do that soloing. First off, read my previous post for my thoughts on the equipment idea.
Secondly, many soloists may not recognize this instantly, but grouping can be difficult. First off, what if your group is lacking a vital role? For example, in a party of 4, there are two tankers, one archer, and one wizard, but there is no cleric or bard or any support character whatsoever. That makes raiding difficult, because considering you were planning to do raiding against tough opponents that you would have no hope of beating without a team, it does suck that you have no healer in this case.
Also, remember that grouping is only fluid and beneficial if everyone is working together and is skilled at their role. But what if people aren't exactly beneficial, and cause problems within a team? Here is a list of people I have partied with at some point in my time with mmorpgs:
1. Ragers: People with bad tempers that snap easily. When they go off, it's never fun to be their target of rage.
2. Uncooperatives: People that simply don't work for the good of the team, and are more concerned about themselves. Why do they join parties then? For various reasons, like they might've wanted a cleric to be aware if they die, or they wanted buffs, wanted to act like a complete jackass for ego-inducing fun, etc...
3. Unskilled newbies: People that don't have alot of skill with their role, thus they are not as beneficiary because they are still learning their role and need to train. They aren't always bad, some aren't ragers and are cooperative, they just need to practice more with their role.
So, I think this was what the author of this forum was getting at. He believes that grouping is difficult, so raiders deserve the "better" equipment because they have it tougher than soloers. If this is what the author of this forum was getting at, I don't neccesarily agree with the idea, I believe in the gear idea I talked about in my previous post. But, I do agree with the author on one particular point: groups have difficult times too, so they do deserve good equipment.
That's fine, let the raiders have the better gear. Just don't penalize me for choosing to play differently, as in restrict their raid gear to raids. When raiders come out and start owning everything in sight without getting scratched in PvP, that's when I cancel without a second thought.
That's fine, let the raiders have the better gear. Just don't penalize me for choosing to play differently, as in restrict their raid gear to raids. When raiders come out and start owning everything in sight without getting scratched in PvP, that's when I cancel without a second thought.
I don't think raiders should have the better gear, I believe everyone should have gear that is fine-tuned to their style of play. I'll elaborate even more on my gear example.
Both a soloer and a group person craft chest plate using the same exact materials. The chestplate allows 2 attachments for enhancements.
The soloer has a stone for enhanced defenses, and another stone that grants extra health, so he uses those stones.
The group person has a stone for enhanced defenses, and he does happen to have the extra health stone too. However, he notices that he has another stone, one that grants the wearer extra healing from any healing spell, but the healing spell must come from someone else. He decides to use this stone, instead of extra health, because he happens to team up with guild members, and he has made friends with two clerics in that guild.
The stone of extra health appealed to both, but the soloer would have no use for the extra healing stone, because he wouldn't see a cleric often since he likes soloing, and as a result, will not always see clerics out in the wild.
This would be my idea of crafting gear, as well as determine what kind of gear soloers and raiders would like to use. Group people would use enhancements designed for teamwork as well as the occasional generic enhancements, while soloers probably would use generic enhancements or enhancements designed for soloers that would be less useful to group people. For example, a soloer gets a stone that grants extra health, but if you're in a party with a cleric, you lose some of that extra health. Obviously, the soloer would then have incentive to stay solo (or at least avoid parties with clerics and just rely on their own survival skills). But, as long as the soloer remains solo or doesn't join a party with a cleric, the soloer gets alot of extra health, even more than the previously mentioned stone of extra health.
That's fine, let the raiders have the better gear. Just don't penalize me for choosing to play differently, as in restrict their raid gear to raids. When raiders come out and start owning everything in sight without getting scratched in PvP, that's when I cancel without a second thought.
I don't think raiders should have the better gear, I believe everyone should have gear that is fine-tuned to their style of play. I'll elaborate even more on my gear example.
Both a soloer and a group person craft chest plate using the same exact materials. The chestplate allows 2 attachments for enhancements.
The soloer has a stone for enhanced defenses, and another stone that grants extra health, so he uses those stones.
The group person has a stone for enhanced defenses, and he does happen to have the extra health stone too. However, he notices that he has another stone, one that grants the wearer extra healing from any healing spell, but the healing spell must come from someone else. He decides to use this stone, instead of extra health, because he happens to team up with guild members, and he has made friends with two clerics in that guild.
The stone of extra health appealed to both, but the soloer would have no use for the extra healing stone, because he wouldn't see a cleric often since he likes soloing, and as a result, will not always see clerics out in the wild.
This would be my idea of crafting gear, as well as determine what kind of gear soloers and raiders would like to use. Group people would use enhancements designed for teamwork as well as the occasional generic enhancements, while soloers probably would use generic enhancements or enhancements designed for soloers that would be less useful to group people. For example, a soloer gets a stone that grants extra health, but if you're in a party with a cleric, you lose some of that extra health. Obviously, the soloer would then have incentive to stay solo (or at least avoid parties with clerics and just rely on their own survival skills). But, as long as the soloer remains solo or doesn't join a party with a cleric, the soloer gets alot of extra health, even more than the previously mentioned stone of extra health.
Ya, an in-depth system like that could probably work too.
My best friend just quit WoW. He was a level 80 human Death Knight. He soloed all the way up with only a few gropupings on the way.
He quit because he said there is no point playing anymore. He beat the game "Level 80" Now, when they increase the level cap, he will come back, but he doesnt want to raid to get gear.
He got most of his gear from questing andf the auction house, but he said the auction house hardly had anything good anymore at his level to buy. He is a hardcore soloer and felt there was nothing else to do but make money with his mining and grinding.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Is this your qoute?
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
My best friend just quit WoW. He was a level 80 human Death Knight. He soloed all the way up with only a few gropupings on the way. He quit because he said there is no point playing anymore. He beat the game "Level 80" Now, when they increase the level cap, he will come back, but he doesnt want to raid to get gear. He got most of his gear from questing andf the auction house, but he said the auction house hardly had anything good anymore at his level to buy. He is a hardcore soloer and felt there was nothing else to do but make money with his mining and grinding.
Young Man its not nice to speak ill of Mr. Blizzard . You need to tell your friend all the people that get laid off and need a shovel ready job this might effect.
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
Good thing they have 1-x0 level to solo.
Then what? A raider also this to do. Why can they not advance their character through end game solo content?
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
Good thing they have 1-x0 level to solo.
After they reach the level cap, then what? *raises eyebrows*
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only pull you down to their level, then beat you with experience." - Brad Slipiec
im not trying to defend wow, because i dont play it anymore and dont particularly like it anymore either, but these days, a person with purple pvp gear will more often then not mop the floor with a character in equivalent pve raid gear. this is because of resilience.
the second reason i dont think this is such an issue anymore is because i think that there is a big difference between raid and pvp gear. pvp gear looks like armour. pve gear looks like a christmas tree. In the days of T3 / T7, if you were a mage you could:
1-pvp and look like a wizard
2-raid and look like a rich thorium vein.
and dont get me started on paladins.
go kill some players, and laugh at the silliness of the raid gear.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Comments
I've solo'd, raided and been involved in small groups quite a bit. First off, I don't see where you can decide other people's fates just on your opinions. I pay 14.99 for a game, as well as you do and the same as the solo player does. Does your decision to neglect real life and spend the most possible time "in game" actually make you more "deserving" of some equipment? If you want to be successful in the mmorpg market you have to cater to all the players. If you want to charge more for the "hardcore" players I suppose that would be acceptable to everyone. But saying the solo player that pays the exact same fee you do doesn't deserve equipment that is similar to yours is just stupid. If you can't make "most" people happy in a game, then those people will find another game to play. I agree that more time spent in game should equate into better equipment, but I don't think it should be limited to raid only. Some raids are just scripted and easily done now by guilds, I've been more challenged by some solo situations in mmorpgs than raids at times. Everyone is entitled to their opinions this much is true, but while we all pay the same monthly fee I think we should all be treated fairly similar whether that be as the soloer, the small grouper or the raider.
And if I want to do this content, but it is designed in such a way that I cannot access it due to the design of it? Take gear out of your sentence and think about it for a second. You obviously play WOW from this post. I would love to complete all the content availble and be able to fight and beat all the raid content in the game given the time to do it, but it is designed so that only those who can play 4+ hours a night for 4+ nights a week can ever access the content.
I don't want free gear, I want to experience content. Hell, I raided for 3 years in WOW as one of the more hardcore players and when real life stepped up and limited my playtime, I found that I could not even get in guilds that do raid and actually make progress because they all wanted 4+ nights a week with 4+ hours a night and time to farm insane ammounts of mats for raids. I don't have that time and am stuck never being able to do this content because even if I played WOW for 100 years, I would never have the time to commit to access the content in the game.
In BC when I lost playtime, I was stuck running heroics that I needed nothing from. I grinded damn near every rep , to include sporaggar to max. I had run Kara to the point that I had every drop I could possibly use. I was very skilled and even in PUG's doing Heroics had several ask me if I would join their guilds. Well, once I got them through Kara, Gruul, and Mag, I was booted because I could not raid enough.
Explain to me who someone like me ever gets to do this content? Stop focusing on gear for one second and answer me how I, who has 2 maybe 3 days a week they can play will ever get to complete the content available in the game? Hell, Maybe when I am level 100 I can go back and solo that content, but then I will still never get to do the level 100 content.
When you can answer why me, who pays the same monthly fee you do, will never have full access to the game, then you can start telling me how people don't deserve stuff. Because until then you just sound stupid and by my calculation don't deserve to breathe the same air the rest of the world does.
And if I want to do this content, but it is designed in such a way that I cannot access it due to the design of it? Take gear out of your sentence and think about it for a second. You obviously play WOW from this post. I would love to complete all the content availble and be able to fight and beat all the raid content in the game given the time to do it, but it is designed so that only those who can play 4+ hours a night for 4+ nights a week can ever access the content.
I don't want free gear, I want to experience content. Hell, I raided for 3 years in WOW as one of the more hardcore players and when real life stepped up and limited my playtime, I found that I could not even get in guilds that do raid and actually make progress because they all wanted 4+ nights a week with 4+ hours a night and time to farm insane ammounts of mats for raids. I don't have that time and am stuck never being able to do this content because even if I played WOW for 100 years, I would never have the time to commit to access the content in the game.
In BC when I lost playtime, I was stuck running heroics that I needed nothing from. I grinded damn near every rep , to include sporaggar to max. I had run Kara to the point that I had every drop I could possibly use. I was very skilled and even in PUG's doing Heroics had several ask me if I would join their guilds. Well, once I got them through Kara, Gruul, and Mag, I was booted because I could not raid enough.
Explain to me who someone like me ever gets to do this content? Stop focusing on gear for one second and answer me how I, who has 2 maybe 3 days a week they can play will ever get to complete the content available in the game? Hell, Maybe when I am level 100 I can go back and solo that content, but then I will still never get to do the level 100 content.
When you can answer why me, who pays the same monthly fee you do, will never have full access to the game, then you can start telling me how people don't deserve stuff. Because until then you just sound stupid and by my calculation don't deserve to breathe the same air the rest of the world does.
I do have one question and I know it's going to come across as smartass but it's really not meant to be. Have you completed every quest available in every zone at every level from 1-80 ?
The reason I ask is because I consistently hear soloer's complaining about not doing all the content of a game, but how many have completed every quest possible, even if it's now 10,20,40 levels below them?
I really think the issue is ALL about gear /loot and NOT the content at all. This is one reason why I hate that you cannot buy,trade, or give the best items away if you want and/or player crafted items being the best in game.
A lot of soloer's also say they cannot do content that they so desperately want to do. Well if you really really really want to do something you will find away. It sounds a lot more like , "Damnit, I can't find raids to fit in conveniently with my schedule!" I've got a movie to go to,, school, work,, kids,, friends coming over,, soccer practice,,, tv shows to watch....
Now don't get me wrong I understand your position and I do not like that gear is not attainable by all,, but if that really is the core issue than just say it is. If it really is just seeing the content, you'd make it happen if it was that important to you.
Well, I appriciate your honesty Greenie and will not slam you for it, Up through BC I pretty much had done everything, or was in the process of trying to complete everything.
I had grinded every rep, completed every heroic, did every 5 man, done Kara, done Gruul, Mag, SSC and TK up to end boss, but hit a brick wall. Yes there were like 2 reps I had left to finish when I quit, but when that was the only thing you had left to do, you get pretty bored.
I quit before WOTLK and even though I had some friends try to get me back into it, I just couldn't. Too many bad memories at this point. To me, it was never about the gear, as given the time and the chance to do the content, gear would come. My issue came with not even being able to access the content. The only things I never really liked doing in WOW was PvP, because coming from EvE and DAOC , I just didn't like WoW's PvP much, and played for the PvE content. I was a huge Warcraft fan from back in the day and it killed me to never even get the chance to complete content centered around the Heroes of the series.
Sad thing, is that I was, and probably still could be a pretty good player. But, I see it more and more in games today, especailly WOW and post WOW games, that certain content seems to be beyond the reach of those that cannot play on hardcore schedules. Hell, at one point I even tried to talk friends of mine into starting a casual raiding guild that raids only on weekends, but we could never get enough people to actually get anything done.
On a side note though, I do think developers could do more to develope solo and small group content. I am not saying equal gear, but at least do more to keep some of the more "hardcore" casuals busy.
Also, if you are a casual that want equal rewards for not doing the content, I agree with most of these people that you should not get it. Rewards are for completing content, not just standing around in game. If you CHOOSE not to do the content, then don't bitch about not getting the reward.
Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh in my last post, it is just I get so sick of reading these posts. I see basically boil it down to a few types of people in most of these.
1: People who choose not to do content and want to get rewards
2: People who want to see their playstyle developed more
3: Hardcores that sadly have too big of egos to admit there are casuals out there that can show them up if given the chance
4: casuals like me that really just want to be able to access the content and are willing to work for any rewards the may get
Nah, I understand your frustration and thanks for taking my responses well.
I am not personally a fan of large raids. I enjoyed raids in Shrouded Aisles to Galladoria and the Dragon in Sheeroe Hills was fun but as time has progressed I pretty much only enjoy running in one solid group. Part of that is due to DaoC RvR and your group being the most important part of any situation. The other part is it is manageable and the social ties are generally closer. That's just my personality, I'll talk to anyone but I keep the people I trust limited and close.
I think developers have done a disservice to players with the content they create. Epic encounters can be fun, but when that's the basis for your endgame I think it's destined for tedium.
I prefer player driven content, and I'll always prefer RvR. PVE is just dull after you've seen the dungeon once. Games really need to provide players something to fight for at endgame instead of just loot. And they probably should limit low-level content to one zone. Think about it, do you really need a starting zone for EVERY race?? I'd rather the 4 other starting zones be incorporated into endgame content by adding more single group or solo dungeons.
It would be nice to see games add more puzzles , mysteries, and story to the dungeons.
The problem with this gear argument is that in games like WoW, once the player reaches max level, gear becomes an alternative way to advance your character. Allowing raiders access to better gear than every one else is basically like allowing only a select group of people to reach level 80 and have everyone else stuck at level 70.
Not to mention the fact that raid gear makes almost every other activity easier. Remember the pre-BC days when raiders dominated PvP because their gear trivialized virtually every encounter with a non-raider wearing some greens and blues?
My personal experience with this was when BG's first came out, me( a rogue) and another rogue, both in greens and blues, tried to take out a fully epic'ed out warrior. He killed us both and had HP enough to continue fighting. It felt like we were barely scratching him while it took him two-three hits to kill each of us. That's not fun.
Which brings me to my next point. Games are suppose to be fun and rewarding for everyone. Not just the select few who choose to participate in a time intensive activity. Allowing a certain group of players to use the best gear for all activities makes those activities not fun for the majority of the population who do not have access to that gear for one reason or another.
Restrict raid gear to raid instances and encounters only, and I don't have a problem with raiders getting overpowered gear. However, I still remember the raider uproar when Resilience and PvP gear was introduced. Raiders lost their ez-mode and much whining happened. Until Blizzard allowed people to get PvP gear through raids and other PvE activities and completely trivialized the whole game even more.
Well this goes back to my beliefs is what about getting new gear advancing your character is actually FUN ?
I can see enjoying pve encounters, I definitely understand the initial leveling up process and getting new skills/powers/talents, I understand pvp as being fun.
What I don't understand is how people are like rats to the dinner bell for a pellet when it comes to getting more gear. I don't want to continually get better gear just to have better gear and there is nothing else for me to do that is fun.
If getting better gear is nothing more than being able to do the next raid so you can get new gear to do the next raid so you can get new gear to do the next raid.... then that's pretty shitty pve imo and a very restrictive game experience.
If gear is nothing more than getting better gear to pvp better until the next pvp gear comes out so you can pvp better, than I say you've got some pretty shitty pvp in the game. Which after playing WOW I have to say it is. Warsong Gulch was fun for awhile, Arathi Basin was fun for awhile,,, but to me those are more like the lowlevel bgs in daoc and shouldn't be the focus of your pvp experience.
Here is why a solo player deserves the same gear as group players -- they pay the same $15 a month to play just the same as radiers. And if you treat them like lesser people -- you wont get their $15 a month anymore. SOE can tell you all about this as they experienced it first hand when they turned EQ into a Hardcore Raiders lovefest. Sure, the raiders loved it but all the solo, casual and small party players took their money and walked away.
It's all fairly simple, including why the OP is so upset about a player that isn't in his hardcore raiding guild getting similar items.
Things covered already, but need to be pulled for making my point:
A) Gear is WoW's real form of advancement. Your power comes from gear, and hardly much else (actually, there's another post where a test points out that only 30% of one's melee damage as a rogue comes from their abilities somewhere on this forum!)
So what the OP is upset about is that he puts a lot of effort into advancing. Or he did in earlier, harder raids. Now, because of those, he felt (feels) badass. Then when some casual is able to do just as well, his effort feels negligable to him. Keep in mind, this is exclusively time invested and absolutely nothing more.
Because we all know how much skill really matters in WoW PVP.
So truthfully, though, it boils down to that the raiders want to be better, and percieved as such, by others, because they are raiders. Their "concrete" proof of this is via their purple items. Take that away, and their egos are threatened, hence the whining.
My opinion is kind of that raiders would probably fold in any actually comepetitive game...their primary skill is simply a lack of things to do with their time. My opinion is that games need to find a way to reward skill. I haven't seen that one yet, though, in an MMO at least (maybe a little in AC or EVE though)
I will say this right now: I love group based gaming, and I especially love raids, and I have a life to live as well (going to be in college or a trade school soon).
I personally think all gear should be hand-crafted, sort of like in FF XI. Now, when it comes to gear between soloers and groups, that's another story. I think the gear should be different between the two, because I believe the gear should be fine-tuned to that person's style of play. Let's say that both a soloist and a groupie both get the same type of chestplate armor. The soloist fine-tunes his chestplate to give enhanced defenses. Meanwhile, the groupie cannot have the same level of enhanced defenses like the soloist, but he has an addition enhancement that the soloist doesn't. His chestplate has a special enhancement that gives him more extra health healing whenever a healing spell is activated on the chestplate's wearer.
So, I don't think the soloist "deserves" the same gear the group/raid person has because if you followed this example, I don't think the soloist would even want the raider's gear. This is vice-verse with the group person as well.
As a raider, one thing that always disturbs me when I read these solo vs. group arguments is that the extreme soloist keep saying that groups don't deserve the "better" equipment because grouping is easier to do that soloing. First off, read my previous post for my thoughts on the equipment idea.
Secondly, many soloists may not recognize this instantly, but grouping can be difficult. First off, what if your group is lacking a vital role? For example, in a party of 4, there are two tankers, one archer, and one wizard, but there is no cleric or bard or any support character whatsoever. That makes raiding difficult, because considering you were planning to do raiding against tough opponents that you would have no hope of beating without a team, it does suck that you have no healer in this case.
Also, remember that grouping is only fluid and beneficial if everyone is working together and is skilled at their role. But what if people aren't exactly beneficial, and cause problems within a team? Here is a list of people I have partied with at some point in my time with mmorpgs:
1. Ragers: People with bad tempers that snap easily. When they go off, it's never fun to be their target of rage.
2. Uncooperatives: People that simply don't work for the good of the team, and are more concerned about themselves. Why do they join parties then? For various reasons, like they might've wanted a cleric to be aware if they die, or they wanted buffs, wanted to act like a complete jackass for ego-inducing fun, etc...
3. Unskilled newbies: People that don't have alot of skill with their role, thus they are not as beneficiary because they are still learning their role and need to train. They aren't always bad, some aren't ragers and are cooperative, they just need to practice more with their role.
So, I think this was what the author of this forum was getting at. He believes that grouping is difficult, so raiders deserve the "better" equipment because they have it tougher than soloers. If this is what the author of this forum was getting at, I don't neccesarily agree with the idea, I believe in the gear idea I talked about in my previous post. But, I do agree with the author on one particular point: groups have difficult times too, so they do deserve good equipment.
That's fine, let the raiders have the better gear. Just don't penalize me for choosing to play differently, as in restrict their raid gear to raids. When raiders come out and start owning everything in sight without getting scratched in PvP, that's when I cancel without a second thought.
I don't think raiders should have the better gear, I believe everyone should have gear that is fine-tuned to their style of play. I'll elaborate even more on my gear example.
Both a soloer and a group person craft chest plate using the same exact materials. The chestplate allows 2 attachments for enhancements.
The soloer has a stone for enhanced defenses, and another stone that grants extra health, so he uses those stones.
The group person has a stone for enhanced defenses, and he does happen to have the extra health stone too. However, he notices that he has another stone, one that grants the wearer extra healing from any healing spell, but the healing spell must come from someone else. He decides to use this stone, instead of extra health, because he happens to team up with guild members, and he has made friends with two clerics in that guild.
The stone of extra health appealed to both, but the soloer would have no use for the extra healing stone, because he wouldn't see a cleric often since he likes soloing, and as a result, will not always see clerics out in the wild.
This would be my idea of crafting gear, as well as determine what kind of gear soloers and raiders would like to use. Group people would use enhancements designed for teamwork as well as the occasional generic enhancements, while soloers probably would use generic enhancements or enhancements designed for soloers that would be less useful to group people. For example, a soloer gets a stone that grants extra health, but if you're in a party with a cleric, you lose some of that extra health. Obviously, the soloer would then have incentive to stay solo (or at least avoid parties with clerics and just rely on their own survival skills). But, as long as the soloer remains solo or doesn't join a party with a cleric, the soloer gets alot of extra health, even more than the previously mentioned stone of extra health.
I don't think raiders should have the better gear, I believe everyone should have gear that is fine-tuned to their style of play. I'll elaborate even more on my gear example.
Both a soloer and a group person craft chest plate using the same exact materials. The chestplate allows 2 attachments for enhancements.
The soloer has a stone for enhanced defenses, and another stone that grants extra health, so he uses those stones.
The group person has a stone for enhanced defenses, and he does happen to have the extra health stone too. However, he notices that he has another stone, one that grants the wearer extra healing from any healing spell, but the healing spell must come from someone else. He decides to use this stone, instead of extra health, because he happens to team up with guild members, and he has made friends with two clerics in that guild.
The stone of extra health appealed to both, but the soloer would have no use for the extra healing stone, because he wouldn't see a cleric often since he likes soloing, and as a result, will not always see clerics out in the wild.
This would be my idea of crafting gear, as well as determine what kind of gear soloers and raiders would like to use. Group people would use enhancements designed for teamwork as well as the occasional generic enhancements, while soloers probably would use generic enhancements or enhancements designed for soloers that would be less useful to group people. For example, a soloer gets a stone that grants extra health, but if you're in a party with a cleric, you lose some of that extra health. Obviously, the soloer would then have incentive to stay solo (or at least avoid parties with clerics and just rely on their own survival skills). But, as long as the soloer remains solo or doesn't join a party with a cleric, the soloer gets alot of extra health, even more than the previously mentioned stone of extra health.
Ya, an in-depth system like that could probably work too.
My best friend just quit WoW. He was a level 80 human Death Knight. He soloed all the way up with only a few gropupings on the way.
He quit because he said there is no point playing anymore. He beat the game "Level 80" Now, when they increase the level cap, he will come back, but he doesnt want to raid to get gear.
He got most of his gear from questing andf the auction house, but he said the auction house hardly had anything good anymore at his level to buy. He is a hardcore soloer and felt there was nothing else to do but make money with his mining and grinding.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Is this your qoute?
Getting old is mandatory...growing up is optional.
http://www.garnersclassics.com/qbilly.htm
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
http://www.garnersclassics.com/qbilly.htm
Good quote, that. Very applicable to this thread too.
- Brad Slipiec
Young Man its not nice to speak ill of Mr. Blizzard . You need to tell your friend all the people that get laid off and need a shovel ready job this might effect.
MAGA
Err.
Paying customers always "deserve" satisfactionary gameplay.
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
Good thing they have 1-x0 level to solo.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
Good thing they have 1-x0 level to solo.
Then what? A raider also this to do. Why can they not advance their character through end game solo content?
This right here is the problem. Games who focus on raid content generally do not add in as much "end-game" solo content. The solo player runs out of things to do a lot faster.
I don't think the issue is with soloer wanting the same level gear as a raider, but they want a little more content.
Good thing they have 1-x0 level to solo.
After they reach the level cap, then what? *raises eyebrows*
- Brad Slipiec
im not trying to defend wow, because i dont play it anymore and dont particularly like it anymore either, but these days, a person with purple pvp gear will more often then not mop the floor with a character in equivalent pve raid gear. this is because of resilience.
the second reason i dont think this is such an issue anymore is because i think that there is a big difference between raid and pvp gear. pvp gear looks like armour. pve gear looks like a christmas tree. In the days of T3 / T7, if you were a mage you could:
1-pvp and look like a wizard
2-raid and look like a rich thorium vein.
and dont get me started on paladins.
go kill some players, and laugh at the silliness of the raid gear.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.