I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones. Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow. I loved XR and the original AV too. The rest of it can get stuffed. What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years. You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself. An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke. Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever. If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to. But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period. Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good. Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest. That sorta takes the fun out of the competition. Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling. PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.
but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .
I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?
I hope not. Scenarios/battlegrounds is a sure way to kill open world PvP, even on totally packed servers. One of the major Aion attractions is the open world PvP, so I hope that the focus remains there.
The only thing I can think of that might be like a battleground is they have a PvP instance that melds PvP/PvE. (not talking about the abyss or anything). Was added in the 1.5 patch I think.
So, at first, the game is too much like WoW. And now, it isn't enough like WoW?
Go write a thesis (at release) and submit it as an article. Spare us the wall of text. Also, take the skill arguments over to an FPS forum and let them have at it. The argument of skill in an MMORPG has been beaten to death. If only the topic of FUN was discussed at similar length, we might actually have some better games on the horizon.
I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?
Aion is currently focused on RvR pvp. Aion uses the NPC faction to try and keep things from becoming too one sided.
That being said I do like pvp mini-games (AoC) / BGs & Arenas (WoW) because they do give you a fairly level playing field.
And since when is RNG a bad thing? Randomness is the best thing to MMO's since online gaming started. Who wants to play a guaranteed combat scenario? Where's the excitement in that? Before you know it, you get so caught up in your ROUTINE button mashing that you forget that you even have other abilities because you don't need them.
I was going to say the same exact thing. Although, I understand what the poster is trying to say. DOn't let a computer decide our fate, the player's skills should decide. Ok fine, I get that. BUT, even in skill based mmo's like Ultima Online, sometimes luck played a huge part in victory or defeat. Lets say a Macer was fighting a mage. The macer has hmm, 75% Magic resist and the Mage only has, hmm, 50% evade. The macer swings his Mace 3 times and somehow misses 3 times. The mage casts flamestrike and fireball twice each and hits all 4 times. The macer = dead. Well I'd say the mage got "lucky" since the Macer's magic resist was higher than the mage's evade but those percentages aren't 100% now are they? In the end, those numbers are still randomly generated by a "computer" but maybe not as bad as how you explain Aion's RNG..
Personally, I'm still willing to give the game a shot since the animations, combat system, and graphics all look pretty darn impressive.
For me, it's going to come down to Mortal Online or Aion. Both have their own pro's and cons, but Aion seems like it wil be much more fun.
Just like 5 years ago when the choice was EQ2 or WoW. I chose EQ2 because of the graphics and for being a long time EQ player, but I jumped ship a few months later and WoW turned out to be the more exciting product,, at the time..
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
I think most of you missed his points, of which, from a decade+ of MMO experience I believe he has several valid ones. Forget about the abysmal pvp in wow. I loved XR and the original AV too. The rest of it can get stuffed. What Blizzard DID do right however was learn from its own mistakes in several ways, and continue to make improvements over years. You can only balance classes in pvp within the control measures of the class itself. An overabundance of variables like stacks of consumables makes fighting on an even field a joke. Fine, argue the merits of randomness in LANDING x spell or hit vs. diminishing returns, or calculated counter measures, or whatever. If that's all it was, it would just take getting used to. But the fact is - you should be able to casually pvp and, if your SKILL is up there, you should be able to compete with people who have more playing time, period. Having skills that require little or no movement to their variables is not good. Being able to overpower another, not with a better set of gear you have earned, but with consumables that stack and require gold that only those with endless time on their hands can keep up with just turns pvp into a gold farming prerequisite fest. That sorta takes the fun out of the competition. Save grinding for mats, tradeskills, lvling. PvP should be able your individual skills, and your ability to work together with players on your side to out fight the opposing team.
but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .
I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?
i m not sure . i quite like pvp so it ll be great for players like me who dont want to grind the same old instances again and again or do the same old daily quests to get an item that ll be out of date within 2 years with the arrival of the next expansion . i m also hopeing for some interesting world pvp . warcraft actually did this quite well in its first couple of years shame it does nt anymore . its a shadow of its former self . i know alot of people did nt like its former self but i enjoyed it . with the gameplay becoming increasingly easy its a nice game for kids . i kind ve hope aion offers a better community . as long as the games quite successful and the server i m on it decent i really dont care if its the next warcraft or not to validate my choice of game . having said that if its good i hope it gets a few million playing it . it would be good for the mmo market . wow having a near manopoly on it is nt doing it any good at all .
The origional post was well presented, and thats about as far as it goes. WoW is all about rock paper scissors. You have counters for pretty much everything and if you dont know how to counter, your going to die.
You have rotations that anyone who is anyone will use to maximize damage output and a cookie cutter build that if you want to squeeze every drop out of your class, you follow... that is wow for you. No more, no less. wow indeed.
Aion dares to be differant and due to this, you create a post that is pretty much idiotic in its assumptions/description and comparison. You have not played past level 20 if you are in the CB as I am. You may be able to get to level 25 tommorow if you are in the CB.
Once you have played Aion to the end game and experianced it first hand, please, shut up with your assumptions and half-arsed attempts to make people think its terrible.
I played Wow when it first came out, and i have to say, Aion shows far more promise than wow did, far more streamlined, less buggy and above all, far more immersive.
I've PvP'd pretty extensively in WoW. I do have plenty of complaints about WoW's PvP, but many of them are technical and wouldn't be understood by anybody who isn't a WoW player themselves, so I won't go into that. Suffice it to say, I've been quite successful in the various avenues which WoW offers, and I actually do agree with some of the OP's points.
In many games, RNG-based CC is extremely undesirable. However, I would say that Aion is _not necessarily_ one of them. It was not the RNG alone which made things like blackout, mace stun, etc. so hated in WoW. It was that a single RNG CC could pretty much permanently tilt a battle in the opposite direction. Those two seconds of stun could be truly devastating. It took other factors to make it so, though.
Fact 1: People in WoW lived with RNG stuns for most of the time it was out. For most of the time such stuns existed, only a small minority bitched about them (how long did Blizzard ignore mace stun QQ?). They were only removed completely a very short time ago. Why do I say RNG stuns specifically? Because there are _still_ RNG CC's in WoW which people don't complain about. It's all about balance.
Fear/Hex, hello? Before the fear nerf, I once had a lock eat up about 80% of my health in one chain of CC's (yes, I know it was more than just one CC). PLEASE tell me it was because I didn't have the gear, PLEASE. After all, I only had about 25k health and a little over 800 resi at the time, so I WAS SO UNDEARGEARED that I surely deserved that. No, genius. It was because fear breaks had too much of a RNG element and too high of a damage-taken cap. Did I bitch about it? NO. I didn't even think it was necessary to nerf it, when they did. After all, locks were shit at the time, and I won almost every engagement I had with one, arena or otherwise. Point? RNG CC is fine if balanced properly.
So why were stuns so bad? Think. You will notice that although the anti-RNG stun simmered for a very long time (mace stun bitching had been around basically forever), nearly reaching a boil in S4, it was only when WotLK launched that it really reached a fever pitch. Why? Because WotLK really turned up the damage and burst.
Fact 2: With the next patch, version 3.2, Blizzard is finally doing something they said they would never do: adding a flat % damage decrease to resilience (the PvP defense stat in WoW), in addition to its previous effects. Why are they doing this? Because the writing is on the wall. At present, people are simply taking way too much damage in PvP.
This is why RNG CC's went from being hated to completely unacceptable. Because a two-second stun basically was the end of certain characters, full stop, regardless of team composition. If _damage is low enough_, RNG merely provides a more fluid, back-and-forth feel to combat. You may believe that a player should never experience any kind of comeback due to lucky RNG rolls. In that case, critical hits should be removed too. I've teamed up with a healer who could literally tank, by himself, any nubbish DPS comp below 1700 without even breaking a sweat. You know what broke him? Lucky RNG. Stuff liked chained crits of scourge strike and other bullshit. That is just as, if not more so, devastating than a stun proc. Consider that? No, you didn't. That would mean admitting that even WoW has a huge RNG element.
Anyhow, the OP talks about the arena with a ridiculous amount of reverence, parroting the same lines thrown around pretty commonly by middle shelf PvP'ers on the WoW forums. He's parroting things that are correct (for WoW), but it's still parroting, with little critical analysis. It pretty clearly pegs him as Blizzard's favorite PvP demographic: the mediocre worshiper. These are people who are better than your average nub, do good but not very good in arena, then consider themselves super knowledgeable PvP geniuses. They worship arena because it validates them. Look at my shiny number. They believe they are rare experts, but their understanding is actually superficial, and they are actually a dime a dozen. He hasn't mentioned a few things about WoW arena, and I'm completely certain he hasn't mentioned them because he has zero idea whatsoever that they're true. You can expect denials and "where did you get that from?" even though this is all well documented and common knowledge among high-end PvP'ers in the game, who he probably mistakenly considers himself one of. I'll clue you in.
Fact 3: Participation in the arena has dropped successively with each passing season. I'm talking about raw participation, despite WoW's phenomenal growth. So the vast, vast majority of people _INSIDE WoW_ don't like it. The dev response? Basically, it was to the effect of this: "Well, all those early fucks just wanted free gear. We know what's best."
Yes, that last bit is almost a direct paraphrase of a blue (by Blizzard staff) statement, minus the explicative. Yep. They're so knowledgeable. Only one problem.
Fact 4: Mediocre worshipers like the OP think all the whining came from nubs. For instance, the idea that WotLK simply introduced too much of a damage increase relative to the health increase. _ALMOST EVERY WIDESPREAD COMPLAINT_ originated in or was mirrored by statements some of the highest-rated players on major arena sites. That's why Blizzard eventually acted on them, not because they give into nubrage.
Blizzard knows best, though. WoW's PvP direction is so good, in fact, that they've concentrated on arena until now despite:
Fact 5: Participation in arena, already declining with each season, has _dropped through the floor_ since the release of WotLK. I mean a massive, staggering loss, OVER half. Multiple medium-sized servers have essentially been emptied of their high-end PvP population. Not a few. Probably the majority. Mine was one of them. On my server, we lost, without exaggeration, 90% of our best players in the space of a few months. Most people didn't notice it, since said group made up only the tiniest percentage of total players on such servers. I'm more or less included in that, though I remain subbed but barely active. Most of these players either quit, went more or less permanently idle (like myself), or they transferred to a realm with a long-standing active PvP community.
Yep, good old arena. Since you're a mediocre worshiper, I know you will get defensive over my statements and dismiss me as a nub next to your godly self. If that's the case, please tell me about your arena experience, OP. Anyhow, you can pretty much throw out anything which the OP has said. All of the authority which he thinks he has is essentially derived from the shiny number which he once licked fervently like a lollipop. He isn't even knowledgeable about WoW and the success or failure of its policies (though he thinks he is). He also can't critically think (though he again thinks he can). Example? "Hrm, RNG = bad. It's possible there are other factors involved which made it so frustrating in WoW, but why bother considering them? Context is irrelevant." Get some perspective, OP. Disgusting post, on the whole. C- for effort.
And yeah, I'm still subbed to WoW. No, I probably won't play Aion. Cue "ur Aion fanboy" flames. I just want to clarify for people that haven't played WoW extensively at the high end: RNG is still a big issue and WoW, and WoW's PvP direction isn't working.
Sounds about right Kurush. As far as fight length Aion fights certainly feel a lot longer than they do in WoW.
Well, from the videos I've seen of Aion and my personal experience with WoW, both games have a problem.
Then again, _both_ games are addressing it. I've read on this board that Aion is dropping PvP damage by a flat 40%. Blizzard is adding direct damage reduction to resilience. Most PvP'ers will now have a flat 20-25% damage reduction in PvP depending on their resi, soon enough.
Originally posted by Kurush Originally posted by Nadril Sounds about right Kurush. As far as fight length Aion fights certainly feel a lot longer than they do in WoW.
Well, from the videos I've seen of Aion and my personal experience with WoW, both games have a problem. Then again, _both_ games are addressing it. I've read on this board that Aion is dropping PvP damage by a flat 40%. Blizzard is adding direct damage reduction to resilience. Most PvP'ers will now have a flat 20-25% damage reduction in PvP depending on their resi, soon enough.
So is WoW dropping the -% dmg from crits in favor of this or are they both going to be there. (I don't follow WoW so I'd have no idea).
As far as Aion goes I actually haven't heard anything about the PvP damage drop and I haven't experienced it's PvP at the max level yet anyways. I will say though that I think RNG has less of an effect when it's a large scale battle than a 2v2/3v3 match.
Having leveled to 40 on the Korean Retail and enrolled/playing NA beta (when open) I can say that OP is trying to convince himself more than anyone else that Aion is trash. Hate to say it but unless you experience Aion as a whole you will never understand. If I would compare a game to Aion it would have to be Lineage 2 as they have a lot of the same things (such as those consumables some people are raging about). The PVP encounters are indeed skill based and aren't calculated like some other MMO's PVP (You're savior; WoW) so the PVP tends to sway back and forth very fluidly. RNG alleviates perma-cc or possibility of it, having it not down to a calculation makes every battle a different experience and even as a rogue you can still win a battle if somehow none of your CC even lands, you just have to be smart with how you play your character and not use the same routine done in WoW. (Which build is the flavor of the month? Sucks doesn't it). If you rank up to the Top 10 you can become a "hero" / "guardian" which you do become very powerful, thing is it comes with a cost. Wherever you go, people know where you are (not exact location but enough information is given to players) so a good group can take you down very easily if you're not careful. When it comes down to it, if you believe everything you've written and don't think the game will last at all why would you CARE enough to share it with other people you won't ever have a chance to convince? You only look like a childish troll that is upset or threatened by another game, just go back to playing WoW and be happy. Let others make the decision for themselves, it's their money.
say it how it is brotha,
p.s it's weird how I found you in a random ass thread.
p.s.s you should tell your guild to stop being so elitist and reconsider my app, I need a community for this game or I'll probably stick with the chinese version as long as I can because they're always willing to party.
Surprising to see so many in favor of RNG combat in PvP. As someone who have played mmorpgs since UO, I have seen plenty of bad pvp designs. Almost always source of poor pvp is because of RNG, where you use some ability that is supposed to do something but fail because it has random 5% change to miss.
OP may be WoW fanboi but he does raise valid point. If you are any competitive player who like pvp you should care about these issues and I don't mean competitive pvper as someone who have lot of time to play, but player who play well.
It sound like Aion is going to be typical korean grind fest but even pvp is rewarding these who grind most. Feel free to prove this wrong as I hope this game would be more about skill instead of how much time you have for playing it.
Surprising to see so many in favor of RNG combat in PvP. As someone who have played mmorpgs since UO, I have seen plenty of bad pvp designs. Almost always source of poor pvp is because of RNG, where you use some ability that is supposed to do something but fail because it has random 5% change to miss.
OP may be WoW fanboi but he does raise valid point. If you are any competitive player who like pvp you should care about these issues and I don't mean competitive pvper as someone who have lot of time to play, but player who play well.
It sound like Aion is going to be typical korean grind fest but even pvp is rewarding these who grind most. Feel free to prove this wrong as I hope this game would be more about skill instead of how much time you have for playing it.
A ranger in korea reached guardian transformation rank within 3 days. Most of the people struggle to do that for months and still fail.
Is that enough of a proof that its not as time consuming as you might think?
The RNG is not as bad as the OP makes it look like, plus yes, im pro RNG, mainly because memorizing a scheme of keys to press in a correct order is not skill, adapting to the situation is way more skill based.
A ranger in korea reached guardian transformation rank within 3 days. Most of the people struggle to do that for months and still fail.
Is that enough of a proof that its not as time consuming as you might think?
That doesnt tell much before I know how much did he play during these 3 days? How are guardian ranks counted and is there some reset period for it? Like do you need to kill/grind much as possible during X days "season" to gain rank for guardian?
Obviously from all of your comparisons WoW is the perfect PvP game for you and Aion is just not to your taste. I honestly do not mind the RNG because I'm a avid D&D player and a lot of time the outcome of a fight can be decided by dumb luck and no skill. Of course that is in a turn based environment but I'm rather used to my RPG's being random in that sense.
I second this. Borrowing from WoW as it is currently is the biggest mistake NCsoft possible can do. The RNG in WoW is there as much if not more than any other mmorpg out there due to WoW developers are in low with burst damage.
How many battles aren´t decided wether that spell or ability is critting or not? They have moved away RNG from crowd control to the damage, it is if anything, more frustrating. Stuns with a random chanse of breaking at least gives you the hope up that might catch a break to actually do something unlike the stunlocks or fear CC that makes WoW such a bad pvp experience.
Originally posted by Ztekan Refer to the Thread maker. Finaly everybody got a chance in PVP , and the kids of earth will no longer say i pewn you or what ever they say all the time.
Thanks Play NC for a more mature game
Say what? You think because there is lot of RNG in pvp that game would be more mature? It wount matter if pvp had lot of RNG or not, but there will be immature players who trash talk if they happen to win even if win was purely based on luck.
All the responses I could stomach had a "QQ AION will only reward players that play the most".
Guys, seriously....learn to google research something for 5 minutes, you might find some relevant information.
And now I can't find the article again, wow that makes me feel kind of stupid. But still, if anyone can follow this up with the article by NCSoft....
NCSoft stated that it will not reward the players for a grindfest (ie. playing the most). Apparently (only because I can't find the link right now) NCSoft is implimenting a 'kill/death' ratio influence on your rank. So those that think they can mindlessly fly about trying to kill the most will probably not get passed rank 9. Instead, if you kill 350 people and only die 75 times, chances are you'll be of a higher rank then someone who's killed 1000 people but has died 1200 times (Like those people in CoD4/WaW matches on your team that would win it for the other team by dying 20 times without contributing a kill to your side).
It would be nice to see, since the WoW stats tracker is useless................66123 honourable kills, 2312 deaths. (Yeah I know, wow's HK system is not that great........vanilla wow was good, when you actually had to have made an impact in some guys death to get an hk, not just stand nearby)
Do you have the willpower to delete YOUR wow toons? XD
Apparently (only because I can't find the link right now) NCSoft is implimenting a 'kill/death' ratio influence on your rank. So those that think they can mindlessly fly about trying to kill the most will probably not get passed rank 9. Instead, if you kill 350 people and only die 75 times, chances are you'll be of a higher rank then someone who's killed 1000 people but has died 1200 times
That system will get exploited to highhell and back if it turns out to be true.
Yeah, but there's exploits in ALL the forms you could use.
Botting would be the prime feature in a grind-orientated pvp rank. PvE mob grind for a pvp rank ftl
imo a mixture of abyss points and a good kill death ratio (which is what I should have added, since that's what the article was on) is better then purely abyss points or a k/d ratio.
It keeps the grinders/botters in line with people who spread out there playing and it keeps those that only do the "surprise you're overwhelmed" zerg or back stabs in line with those that go head on into a fight.
BUT then again, we have to wait and see.
I hope it works. I'm tired of disappointing mmo's (ie. war)
Do you have the willpower to delete YOUR wow toons? XD
Originally posted by Raztor Originally posted by twiggly Apparently (only because I can't find the link right now) NCSoft is implimenting a 'kill/death' ratio influence on your rank. So those that think they can mindlessly fly about trying to kill the most will probably not get passed rank 9. Instead, if you kill 350 people and only die 75 times, chances are you'll be of a higher rank then someone who's killed 1000 people but has died 1200 times
That system will get exploited to highhell and back if it turns out to be true.
It'd take a lot of planning to get anywhere proper while doing exploiting. Shit, I'd think it'd be near impossible to exploit your way up high compared to a proper player. Think about it:
- At a certain part killing a same rank person will give you less points than if you die. - You lose points when you die. - You are getting less points for killing lower AP targets.
there would be a few days to do it. One is you could trade kills, which would maybe work up to a mid-point rank. This is something that could easily be gotten otherwise.
Another is you could just keep killing one person over and over, but it would get to the point where it'd be faster just to do the AP quests. You would also never catch up once the ranks get to a point where only a certain number of players may be in them.
You could try and set up some really complex hierarchy in which at this point NCSoft would be certain to notice something fishy going on.
There is always a posibility of exploit when talk of a ranked based system comes up (for example, WoW's arena and win trading) but the way Aion is set up "win trading" won't work after a point.
Comments
but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .
I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?
I hope not. Scenarios/battlegrounds is a sure way to kill open world PvP, even on totally packed servers. One of the major Aion attractions is the open world PvP, so I hope that the focus remains there.
The only thing I can think of that might be like a battleground is they have a PvP instance that melds PvP/PvE. (not talking about the abyss or anything). Was added in the 1.5 patch I think.
The nice thing about scenario type pvp is the convenience of grouping. Joining as a group is a nice option as well.
So, at first, the game is too much like WoW. And now, it isn't enough like WoW?
Go write a thesis (at release) and submit it as an article. Spare us the wall of text. Also, take the skill arguments over to an FPS forum and let them have at it. The argument of skill in an MMORPG has been beaten to death. If only the topic of FUN was discussed at similar length, we might actually have some better games on the horizon.
Aion is currently focused on RvR pvp. Aion uses the NPC faction to try and keep things from becoming too one sided.
That being said I do like pvp mini-games (AoC) / BGs & Arenas (WoW) because they do give you a fairly level playing field.
I was going to say the same exact thing. Although, I understand what the poster is trying to say. DOn't let a computer decide our fate, the player's skills should decide. Ok fine, I get that. BUT, even in skill based mmo's like Ultima Online, sometimes luck played a huge part in victory or defeat. Lets say a Macer was fighting a mage. The macer has hmm, 75% Magic resist and the Mage only has, hmm, 50% evade. The macer swings his Mace 3 times and somehow misses 3 times. The mage casts flamestrike and fireball twice each and hits all 4 times. The macer = dead. Well I'd say the mage got "lucky" since the Macer's magic resist was higher than the mage's evade but those percentages aren't 100% now are they? In the end, those numbers are still randomly generated by a "computer" but maybe not as bad as how you explain Aion's RNG..
Personally, I'm still willing to give the game a shot since the animations, combat system, and graphics all look pretty darn impressive.
For me, it's going to come down to Mortal Online or Aion. Both have their own pro's and cons, but Aion seems like it wil be much more fun.
Just like 5 years ago when the choice was EQ2 or WoW. I chose EQ2 because of the graphics and for being a long time EQ player, but I jumped ship a few months later and WoW turned out to be the more exciting product,, at the time..
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
but that does nt happen in wow the pvp is all zerg and kill as many of the opposing side as possible in the battlegrounds .the reason why wows pvp in them is so bad in the battlegrounds is that its a grind win or lose you know you ll get decent enough honor to buy whatever epics you want . why bother with learning tactics and having some fun interesting pvp when you know you can grind loses and get there almost as fast . same with the instances . just do them again and again till your lucky enough to get the drop for you and when you do what do you do with it ? theres no real world pvp anymore where the armor and weapons you have makes one itoa of difference .
that aside its funny this was ment to be a trolling thread but what comes across if anything it strengthens Aion as a game . i did nt expect a wowkiller but i m really starting to wonder now .
I dont look for it to be a wow killer but it has to have better pvp than wow. And your right ive never seen more disorganized groups doing pvp than in wow. Will A'ion have any scenarios or battleground type pvp?
i m not sure . i quite like pvp so it ll be great for players like me who dont want to grind the same old instances again and again or do the same old daily quests to get an item that ll be out of date within 2 years with the arrival of the next expansion . i m also hopeing for some interesting world pvp . warcraft actually did this quite well in its first couple of years shame it does nt anymore . its a shadow of its former self . i know alot of people did nt like its former self but i enjoyed it . with the gameplay becoming increasingly easy its a nice game for kids . i kind ve hope aion offers a better community . as long as the games quite successful and the server i m on it decent i really dont care if its the next warcraft or not to validate my choice of game . having said that if its good i hope it gets a few million playing it . it would be good for the mmo market . wow having a near manopoly on it is nt doing it any good at all .
The origional post was well presented, and thats about as far as it goes. WoW is all about rock paper scissors. You have counters for pretty much everything and if you dont know how to counter, your going to die.
You have rotations that anyone who is anyone will use to maximize damage output and a cookie cutter build that if you want to squeeze every drop out of your class, you follow... that is wow for you. No more, no less. wow indeed.
Aion dares to be differant and due to this, you create a post that is pretty much idiotic in its assumptions/description and comparison. You have not played past level 20 if you are in the CB as I am. You may be able to get to level 25 tommorow if you are in the CB.
Once you have played Aion to the end game and experianced it first hand, please, shut up with your assumptions and half-arsed attempts to make people think its terrible.
I played Wow when it first came out, and i have to say, Aion shows far more promise than wow did, far more streamlined, less buggy and above all, far more immersive.
Aneu
I've PvP'd pretty extensively in WoW. I do have plenty of complaints about WoW's PvP, but many of them are technical and wouldn't be understood by anybody who isn't a WoW player themselves, so I won't go into that. Suffice it to say, I've been quite successful in the various avenues which WoW offers, and I actually do agree with some of the OP's points.
In many games, RNG-based CC is extremely undesirable. However, I would say that Aion is _not necessarily_ one of them. It was not the RNG alone which made things like blackout, mace stun, etc. so hated in WoW. It was that a single RNG CC could pretty much permanently tilt a battle in the opposite direction. Those two seconds of stun could be truly devastating. It took other factors to make it so, though.
Fact 1: People in WoW lived with RNG stuns for most of the time it was out. For most of the time such stuns existed, only a small minority bitched about them (how long did Blizzard ignore mace stun QQ?). They were only removed completely a very short time ago. Why do I say RNG stuns specifically? Because there are _still_ RNG CC's in WoW which people don't complain about. It's all about balance.
Fear/Hex, hello? Before the fear nerf, I once had a lock eat up about 80% of my health in one chain of CC's (yes, I know it was more than just one CC). PLEASE tell me it was because I didn't have the gear, PLEASE. After all, I only had about 25k health and a little over 800 resi at the time, so I WAS SO UNDEARGEARED that I surely deserved that. No, genius. It was because fear breaks had too much of a RNG element and too high of a damage-taken cap. Did I bitch about it? NO. I didn't even think it was necessary to nerf it, when they did. After all, locks were shit at the time, and I won almost every engagement I had with one, arena or otherwise. Point? RNG CC is fine if balanced properly.
So why were stuns so bad? Think. You will notice that although the anti-RNG stun simmered for a very long time (mace stun bitching had been around basically forever), nearly reaching a boil in S4, it was only when WotLK launched that it really reached a fever pitch. Why? Because WotLK really turned up the damage and burst.
Fact 2: With the next patch, version 3.2, Blizzard is finally doing something they said they would never do: adding a flat % damage decrease to resilience (the PvP defense stat in WoW), in addition to its previous effects. Why are they doing this? Because the writing is on the wall. At present, people are simply taking way too much damage in PvP.
This is why RNG CC's went from being hated to completely unacceptable. Because a two-second stun basically was the end of certain characters, full stop, regardless of team composition. If _damage is low enough_, RNG merely provides a more fluid, back-and-forth feel to combat. You may believe that a player should never experience any kind of comeback due to lucky RNG rolls. In that case, critical hits should be removed too. I've teamed up with a healer who could literally tank, by himself, any nubbish DPS comp below 1700 without even breaking a sweat. You know what broke him? Lucky RNG. Stuff liked chained crits of scourge strike and other bullshit. That is just as, if not more so, devastating than a stun proc. Consider that? No, you didn't. That would mean admitting that even WoW has a huge RNG element.
Anyhow, the OP talks about the arena with a ridiculous amount of reverence, parroting the same lines thrown around pretty commonly by middle shelf PvP'ers on the WoW forums. He's parroting things that are correct (for WoW), but it's still parroting, with little critical analysis. It pretty clearly pegs him as Blizzard's favorite PvP demographic: the mediocre worshiper. These are people who are better than your average nub, do good but not very good in arena, then consider themselves super knowledgeable PvP geniuses. They worship arena because it validates them. Look at my shiny number. They believe they are rare experts, but their understanding is actually superficial, and they are actually a dime a dozen. He hasn't mentioned a few things about WoW arena, and I'm completely certain he hasn't mentioned them because he has zero idea whatsoever that they're true. You can expect denials and "where did you get that from?" even though this is all well documented and common knowledge among high-end PvP'ers in the game, who he probably mistakenly considers himself one of. I'll clue you in.
Fact 3: Participation in the arena has dropped successively with each passing season. I'm talking about raw participation, despite WoW's phenomenal growth. So the vast, vast majority of people _INSIDE WoW_ don't like it. The dev response? Basically, it was to the effect of this: "Well, all those early fucks just wanted free gear. We know what's best."
Yes, that last bit is almost a direct paraphrase of a blue (by Blizzard staff) statement, minus the explicative. Yep. They're so knowledgeable. Only one problem.
Fact 4: Mediocre worshipers like the OP think all the whining came from nubs. For instance, the idea that WotLK simply introduced too much of a damage increase relative to the health increase. _ALMOST EVERY WIDESPREAD COMPLAINT_ originated in or was mirrored by statements some of the highest-rated players on major arena sites. That's why Blizzard eventually acted on them, not because they give into nubrage.
Blizzard knows best, though. WoW's PvP direction is so good, in fact, that they've concentrated on arena until now despite:
Fact 5: Participation in arena, already declining with each season, has _dropped through the floor_ since the release of WotLK. I mean a massive, staggering loss, OVER half. Multiple medium-sized servers have essentially been emptied of their high-end PvP population. Not a few. Probably the majority. Mine was one of them. On my server, we lost, without exaggeration, 90% of our best players in the space of a few months. Most people didn't notice it, since said group made up only the tiniest percentage of total players on such servers. I'm more or less included in that, though I remain subbed but barely active. Most of these players either quit, went more or less permanently idle (like myself), or they transferred to a realm with a long-standing active PvP community.
Yep, good old arena. Since you're a mediocre worshiper, I know you will get defensive over my statements and dismiss me as a nub next to your godly self. If that's the case, please tell me about your arena experience, OP. Anyhow, you can pretty much throw out anything which the OP has said. All of the authority which he thinks he has is essentially derived from the shiny number which he once licked fervently like a lollipop. He isn't even knowledgeable about WoW and the success or failure of its policies (though he thinks he is). He also can't critically think (though he again thinks he can). Example? "Hrm, RNG = bad. It's possible there are other factors involved which made it so frustrating in WoW, but why bother considering them? Context is irrelevant." Get some perspective, OP. Disgusting post, on the whole. C- for effort.
And yeah, I'm still subbed to WoW. No, I probably won't play Aion. Cue "ur Aion fanboy" flames. I just want to clarify for people that haven't played WoW extensively at the high end: RNG is still a big issue and WoW, and WoW's PvP direction isn't working.
Sounds about right Kurush.
As far as fight length Aion fights certainly feel a lot longer than they do in WoW.
Well, from the videos I've seen of Aion and my personal experience with WoW, both games have a problem.
Then again, _both_ games are addressing it. I've read on this board that Aion is dropping PvP damage by a flat 40%. Blizzard is adding direct damage reduction to resilience. Most PvP'ers will now have a flat 20-25% damage reduction in PvP depending on their resi, soon enough.
Well, from the videos I've seen of Aion and my personal experience with WoW, both games have a problem.
Then again, _both_ games are addressing it. I've read on this board that Aion is dropping PvP damage by a flat 40%. Blizzard is adding direct damage reduction to resilience. Most PvP'ers will now have a flat 20-25% damage reduction in PvP depending on their resi, soon enough.
So is WoW dropping the -% dmg from crits in favor of this or are they both going to be there. (I don't follow WoW so I'd have no idea).
As far as Aion goes I actually haven't heard anything about the PvP damage drop and I haven't experienced it's PvP at the max level yet anyways. I will say though that I think RNG has less of an effect when it's a large scale battle than a 2v2/3v3 match.
say it how it is brotha,
p.s it's weird how I found you in a random ass thread.
p.s.s you should tell your guild to stop being so elitist and reconsider my app, I need a community for this game or I'll probably stick with the chinese version as long as I can because they're always willing to party.
Surprising to see so many in favor of RNG combat in PvP. As someone who have played mmorpgs since UO, I have seen plenty of bad pvp designs. Almost always source of poor pvp is because of RNG, where you use some ability that is supposed to do something but fail because it has random 5% change to miss.
OP may be WoW fanboi but he does raise valid point. If you are any competitive player who like pvp you should care about these issues and I don't mean competitive pvper as someone who have lot of time to play, but player who play well.
It sound like Aion is going to be typical korean grind fest but even pvp is rewarding these who grind most. Feel free to prove this wrong as I hope this game would be more about skill instead of how much time you have for playing it.
A ranger in korea reached guardian transformation rank within 3 days. Most of the people struggle to do that for months and still fail.
Is that enough of a proof that its not as time consuming as you might think?
The RNG is not as bad as the OP makes it look like, plus yes, im pro RNG, mainly because memorizing a scheme of keys to press in a correct order is not skill, adapting to the situation is way more skill based.
Aion>>>WoW, end of discussion.
Refer to the Thread maker.
Finaly everybody got a chance in PVP , and the kids of earth will no longer say i pewn you or what ever they say all the time.
Thanks Play NC for a more mature game
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I second this. Borrowing from WoW as it is currently is the biggest mistake NCsoft possible can do. The RNG in WoW is there as much if not more than any other mmorpg out there due to WoW developers are in low with burst damage.
How many battles aren´t decided wether that spell or ability is critting or not? They have moved away RNG from crowd control to the damage, it is if anything, more frustrating. Stuns with a random chanse of breaking at least gives you the hope up that might catch a break to actually do something unlike the stunlocks or fear CC that makes WoW such a bad pvp experience.
All the responses I could stomach had a "QQ AION will only reward players that play the most".
Guys, seriously....learn to google research something for 5 minutes, you might find some relevant information.
And now I can't find the article again, wow that makes me feel kind of stupid. But still, if anyone can follow this up with the article by NCSoft....
NCSoft stated that it will not reward the players for a grindfest (ie. playing the most). Apparently (only because I can't find the link right now) NCSoft is implimenting a 'kill/death' ratio influence on your rank. So those that think they can mindlessly fly about trying to kill the most will probably not get passed rank 9. Instead, if you kill 350 people and only die 75 times, chances are you'll be of a higher rank then someone who's killed 1000 people but has died 1200 times (Like those people in CoD4/WaW matches on your team that would win it for the other team by dying 20 times without contributing a kill to your side).
It would be nice to see, since the WoW stats tracker is useless................66123 honourable kills, 2312 deaths. (Yeah I know, wow's HK system is not that great........vanilla wow was good, when you actually had to have made an impact in some guys death to get an hk, not just stand nearby)
Do you have the willpower to delete YOUR wow toons? XD
[Retired: WoW, RO, EvE, WaR, AoC, LoTR]
That system will get exploited to highhell and back if it turns out to be true.
Yeah, but there's exploits in ALL the forms you could use.
Botting would be the prime feature in a grind-orientated pvp rank. PvE mob grind for a pvp rank ftl
imo a mixture of abyss points and a good kill death ratio (which is what I should have added, since that's what the article was on) is better then purely abyss points or a k/d ratio.
It keeps the grinders/botters in line with people who spread out there playing and it keeps those that only do the "surprise you're overwhelmed" zerg or back stabs in line with those that go head on into a fight.
BUT then again, we have to wait and see.
I hope it works. I'm tired of disappointing mmo's (ie. war)
Do you have the willpower to delete YOUR wow toons? XD
[Retired: WoW, RO, EvE, WaR, AoC, LoTR]
It'd take a lot of planning to get anywhere proper while doing exploiting. Shit, I'd think it'd be near impossible to exploit your way up high compared to a proper player. Think about it:
- At a certain part killing a same rank person will give you less points than if you die.
- You lose points when you die.
- You are getting less points for killing lower AP targets.
there would be a few days to do it. One is you could trade kills, which would maybe work up to a mid-point rank. This is something that could easily be gotten otherwise.
Another is you could just keep killing one person over and over, but it would get to the point where it'd be faster just to do the AP quests. You would also never catch up once the ranks get to a point where only a certain number of players may be in them.
You could try and set up some really complex hierarchy in which at this point NCSoft would be certain to notice something fishy going on.
There is always a posibility of exploit when talk of a ranked based system comes up (for example, WoW's arena and win trading) but the way Aion is set up "win trading" won't work after a point.