1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
My answer would be, sometimes I don't want to GRIND for the money in game, because it takes 4 hours to buy the new cloak. I'd rather PLAY the game NOW having fun grinding for XP so I can advance. Often grinding for money is different from getting XP, especially when you REALLY want that new cloak. Yes, it's a great achievement to FINALLY afford it, but sometimes it's boring, not fun.
Meanwhile, the 4 hours it would take me to grind for that cloak, I already made working a job for 5 minutes (if it's like, $1) and it's just more fun to pay that $1, get the cloak, then play for fun- spending 4 hours in a group killing monsters.
Also... most of the time, the coolest fluff items that even a level 1 can use, are so expensive only a max level 80 can buy them. This means I will NEVER have that fluff item, solely because the market hates me, because my currency is COPPER, not PLATINUM, lol.
That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding. Not to mention that 4 hours at minimum wage is worth just a bit less than double the monthly fee.
Why should my work in game be worth a tiny tiny fraction of what my time IRl is- if I find both a "boring grind"???
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot" when the other guy could simply work 1 extra hour overtime and buy 500 new loots. If money is tight, it's as simple as thinking "What do I want more, to grind 8 hours for my new mount while drinking a 6-pack of coke, or not buy the coke, and save myself those 8 hours and buy the cape NOW."
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
How does an RMT shop benefits the player? Because from where I stand, all I can see is a company taking advantage of the players enthusiasm so they can milk them for cash.
Explain to everyone here how RMT shops take advantage of the players.
Your logic acts as if it's the company's fault that some players will think "Oh god, I just HAVE to buy that new costume or I'll just DIE!!!"
Taking advantage of people with obsessive collecting disorders would be a valid argument, but the majority of RMT customers won't have that. And how can a company deny EVERYONE a RMT shop solely because SOME people have gambling problems or associated disorders?
RMT shops can benefit players because it produces money for the company. This is how business works. Company gets money, and it can then hire more people, give workers more hours, spend more money on their company to make it better, providing the customer with more options.
A company who has a massive success in its RMT costume shop will spam the market with TONS of extra costumes to purchase. This means that the customer gets (x) amount of more costumes to choose from than normal. If the RMT shop never existed or never made profits, there would be less costumes to choose from.
And everyone knows it's always better to have more choices in costumes!
I am wary that I had to explain basic business and common sense to you. The more money a company gets, the more it can and often will put into its product. Even if they simply pocket the money, it still does provide more leverage for the game via investors, expansion quality, etc. People will see a profit, and will want to invest in that profit to keep the money coming in.
I've yet to see a correlation made between revenue earned and increased investment in the game.
That's what we would hope would happen, but I've yet to see it happen. EVE Online updates its hardware and game regularly, but doesn't charge for anything other than the $20 initial account fee and $15 fee thereafter (besides portrait swap for $10).
CoH/CoV recently introduced costume packs, and the updates actually got less frequent.
If what you say is truly the case, then WoW should have about 4 times the amount of updates and added content than the next largest competitor. But it doesn't. Most of the content updates are included in the extra priced expansions, but what does all that money into extra priced expansions really net the player in terms of added investment in the game? Only the incentive to add more extra priced expansions...as has been shown in EQ and EQ2.
Businesses want to make money, but there are many ways to make money...many of them far easier and more lucrative than MMO publishing. Frankly, I could care less how they get the game in my hands as long as it's worth the money...and merely telling me how important it is to them to sell me incidentals from the item store doesn't convince me that they really need to do so.
Everyone wants money, and everyone wants more money. The difference between me and what the MMO folks are doing is that I have to make a case why I should get more money, while these MMO publishers just charge.
I like how you COMPLETELY avoided my question, which was the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of my post.
Explain to everyone here how RMT shops take advantage of the players. By tempting you to buy the next hot must have item.
I think Archangel needs to cool down as you are coming over a bit immature and the ranting you are doing is not exactly forum friendly.
No offense intended, but there isn't any tone to my posts. The capital letters are not "yelling" but emphasis of an important point.
Thanks for the advice, but being forum friendly requires too much thinking of what to NOT say, and in the end only the quiet (including short replies, like yours) are ever considered friendly.
Not to mention the internet has about the same acceptance and friendliness of a maximum security prison. No offense.
It's just what happens when you have the complete lack of tone in all forms of communication, a massive cultural and sub cultural difference in communication style, and a large group of different people consisting of normal people, niche gamers, anti-social disorders, and teenagers all rolled into one.
I just write as is, and don't edit or consider how I say it. It really isn't worth the effort, since most people will be the same regardless of how you say it. Those who disagree, will disagree. Those who flame you, will flame you. Those who troll, will troll. Regardless if you say "May you consider this side of the argument just one more time?" or "OMG RETARD, I ALREADY SAID THAT!!!!!!!11111"
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of you due to your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
Of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often the forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
Then the debate isn't about ez mode or hard mode- but Accomplishment vs "Fun".
Play to Achieve, fun via accomplishment.
Pay to Achieve, or "instant-action", fun via playing the game.
Two different play styles. And it's an MMO, so shouldn't the company appease both sides, as long as they aren't hurt?
You can play to achieve, and never spend a dime on RMT. You enjoy the game because you accomplished getting something that cost money, but for free. Hard work FTW!
The others can buy a new cape, and play, having fun. Video gaming FTW!
Don't Aesthetic MT's solve this problem for everyone?
As an old saying goes,
"If it's not fun for you, you can simply turn it off."
You accomplish the exact same thing regardless of there being an easier way to do it or not.
It's why they have difficulty levels on Console Games.
The game is the same if you beat it on Easy or on Hard- it's your choice, and you accomplish the same thing. But the sense of accomplishment is there for those who want it, and the other way for those who don't.
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
Then the debate isn't about ez mode or hard mode- but Accomplishment vs "Fun".
well, I wouldnt ever say it's that, because accomplishment to me IS fun. hanging out with friends for the accomplishemtn is ALSO fun. Learning the skills needed to suceed is again yet more fun.
'Fun' is a subjective description, and it only has the value we as individuals give it. Your fun isnt my fun.
Play to Achieve gaming, for me, strips away all the fun in a game to the point where it is no longer even a game but only a virtual market place. That, to me, isnt fun.
Play to Achieve, fun via accomplishment.
Pay to Achieve, or "instant-action", fun via playing the game.
Well, forming a group of my friends to go out and win a item via playing the game is 'instant action' surely?
Only we get the added thrill of winning the item at the end of it all, which has to be more exciting then just hitting the 'purchase' button?
Two different play styles. And it's an MMO, so shouldn't the company appease both sides, as long as they aren't hurt?
But the fact is MT can't help but affect the whole game, no matter how fluff it is.
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
Actually there is a legitimate reason to "hate" MTs if the game already has a monthly subscription. This is called the "slippery slope effect". If developers see people are willing to pay a fee on top of a fee what is to stop other companies from doing so? Also, most developers will see it as an extra cash cow and eventually WILL be selling game breaking items.
A case from the history books. EQ2 decided it was going to make ONE server have an RMT. They stated theywould never ever under any circumstances deviate from having just one server having RMTs. Two years later and all the EQ2 servers have RMT shops along with some of the other SOE games.
Even you stated "as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition". Well, this is exactly what will EVENTUALLY happen and by giving up in the initial fight you will have lost the means to turn things around.
I think that hatred is wrong, because it's out of fear of what most likely won't happen.
I would like to believe that the majority of MMO players would immeditely stop their subscriptions if they changed RMT radically from small aesthetic things like costumes, travel improvements, or xp boosts- to big things like the Sword of a Thousand Truths usable in PvP!
The moment it begins to lose balance to the game, I believe most people would say "Nope! Cya!"
I know I certainly would. Few people would follow the example of something that made people, and their money, leave. And if they still made more profit? Well, then the audience would be split, and MMO's would come out for both sides.
Perhaps it would even turn into many many different niche audiences because of the split, and we could FINALLY game an MMO game for MMO gamers. That's what everyone really wants, isn't it? For the WoW Kiddies to leave and for the real gamers to get something besides a failed clone.
Your opinion is a strong one, and is a logical reason to dislike MT's, but I respectfully still disagree that we should fear them. Although we should watch corporations, sometimes we also have to give them freedom. If we don't, we really can't show them WE are the deciding factor in what stays or goes, because we can stop payment at any time we want. Stopping because of Aesthetic MT's isn't going to have enough of a pull, because most people really won't care. "It's just a costume, who cares?" Let them have their aesthetic MT's, and kick them in the balls whenever they think they can do something that we truly won't allow like unbalancing RMT. It would give players a much bigger influence than being divided among opinion. If we only fight back when we are weak, the corporations will just continue to think even more "It doesn't matter what they think."
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
I get what your saying. It's never gonna be how I feel perosnally, but fair enough. I'm off to bed now though, but it was a good chat.
I actually wish CO well, the genre dosent need another turkey after all, and I hope that you guys that are looking for what it offers have a blast, but it simply isnt for me. Everything I read about it is jarring me right now, despite me being an old school Champions PnP RPG player and still loving my comics, but I'm not threatened by it being a success...
...as long as Aion is a bigger success lol, just to prove that devs don't have to have MT in a game, despite modern thinking of a lot of people that have fallen for the propaganda, to make a healthy profit to support and develop their game
Heres the rub. MT=RL in MMO's. Instead of a virtuous virtual world where play and some rng determine how you do the rich can now buy there way through whatever they want whil the poor schlub has to schlub his/her way through.
I'm not some hellbent idealogue i realize this happens even in games that actively discourage mt. People with money find a way to buy their way to their goals.
There is no legitimate reason for people to hate Microtransactions, as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition (which in Champions Online is PvP, as there is no challenge in PvE). I believe the majority are under some delusion that Microtransactions will steal their money, cause their opponents to have unfair advantages, etc.. If the MT's are just costume pieces, easier traveling, and XP boosts, there is absolutely no reason to get upset. You can simply never spend a dime over the monthly fee, and that guy you fight in PvP who leveled to your level in 1/2 the time or who has a shinier cape will have no more advantage over you than anyone else. Level bracket PvP doesn't work that way, you're not in direct competition with people in PvE, and costumes don't give damage boosts. No reason to whine.
No reason to hate.
And absolutely NO REASON to abandon a game because of it. In fact... you might just BENEFIT from MT's, having more and better updates. All hate for something that doesn't change the balance of PvP is completely illogical and without valid reason. It's as ignorant and unreasonable as the hate mobs that drive to other states to boycott Health Care Reform Town Halls. Those that hate aesthetic MT's are the rednecks of the internet.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
I get what your saying. It's never gonna be how I feel perosnally, but fair enough. I'm off to bed now though, but it was a good chat.
I actually wish CO well, the genre dosent need another turkey after all, and I hope that you guys that are looking for what it offers have a blast, but it simply isnt for me. Everything I read about it is jarring me right now, despite me being an old school Champions PnP RPG player and still loving my comics, but I'm not threatened by it being a success...
...as long as Aion is a bigger success lol, just to prove that devs don't have to have MT in a game, despite modern thinking of a lot of people that have fallen for the propaganda, to make a healthy profit to support and develop their game
I just wish there was more money in the gaming market, lol. That way everyone can have every game they want.
"Small Business" could just be niche markets, and everyone would be happy, as long as WoW doesn't become like WalMart, lol jk
They dont announce their real plans, because that would prevent people from getting hooked.
Once people are hooked, you will start to see more and more stuff in the item mall that are certain to affect the balance of power between players.
No F2P lives without the "pay to win" factor. What do you think is the % of income that comes from aesthetic sells and the % of income that comes from "power".
PEOPLE WILL BUY POWER. If 100% of the power available in the cash shop costs $10, people who have $!0, will spend $10. If 100% of the power available in the cash shop costs $300, people will spend the maximum they can to reach that power, some will be able to spend only $10 still, but some will spend $50, some will spend $300. We are starting to see Micro Transactions / Cash Shop / Item Malls whose 100% of the power benefits require more than a thousand dollars spent on items malls. They purposefully make it so the more money is spent the higher the overall effect in competition. One thing is a % of the total benefits you can get from the shop. Another thing is the % of the total power you get with cash shop and without it. So, besides seeing games where to get all the possible benefits from the cash shop would require more money than they are willing to spend or what they think is fair, or justified for such type of game, WE ARE SEEING GAMES WHERE A BIG CHUNK OF YOUR TOTAL POWER IS DEPENDENT ON THE CASH SHOP. Example: One guy without spending on cash shop, but playing all day long 12+ hours a day after three months get lets say 75% of the TOTAL POWER ACHIEVABLE FOR A CHARACTER. (with everything accounted, from levels, skills, items, etc) And lets say that the only way for that character to go past that 75% is start spending money on the cash shop. And then, we have another guy, who bought 100% of all the power available in the cash shop (through all the stuff that gives you more power, directly or indirectly, like itens that makes you get more xp, more/better drops/rewards, higher chances of upgrades, or items that prevent failures or permanent loses of equipment, all kinds of gambles/lottery mall schemes)
That guy, play only 6 hours every day, for one month. He achieved 75% of the TOTAL POWER ACHIEVABLE, except that 50% of it, he got playing 6 hours every day for one month, and 25% he got BUYING STRAIGHT FROM THE ITEM SHOP.
Both are balanced. Is it the type of game you want to play? To be the special hero, legendary guy on that game, not only spending 12+hours a day for three months, but buying the 100% of all the power available in the cash shop. Those who do that will be the ones who will "own". Thats what you get in f2p games.
Aesthetical MT is how they introduce/justify its existant in the game while trying to prevent an outbreak in the community so you actually get the people to play your game.
Normally, three months or so after, they start introducing "POWER" in the Cash shop. And then, what are you going to do? Get a refund for all the time and spent on the game? Put them on court because they significantly changed the core game mechanics breaking the good will of the contract? All the marketting was a lie and you want a indemnization?
Dont be naive. They will sell power in the cash shop, down your throat and use stupid excuses: "We have to maintain the servers"
Dont be a fool. Untill we have laws preventing them from changing how the power is achieved without damaging old players, or without changing the cash shop afterwards, you are signing an empty contract. Did you read the CONTRACT? It says: "We own your account, your character and everything on it." "We can change everything we want any time we want." "We make the rules and change them without your approval." "We can ban you based on our own criteries."
MMORPGs are not products. MMORPGs are services. Still they didnt got enough attention on the court rooms and in the laws and juridic cases. We have no rights. Dont believe stupid things like the Champions Online "We will have only asthetic stuff".
Hey you developer. If 6 months later you decide to change anything, will you commit sepuku? Can I go and kill you because you broke your promisse? How do I get revenge? Can I sue your ass for big bugs because you made me spent over a hundred hours of my life pursuing virtual power that now, because of your change, is now worth just a fraction? My time and effort spent was shrinked, thrown out of the window, will you compensate me how I think you should?
I laugh at the faces of ignorant youngsters who doesnt know how things works. Im a lawyer and a player and let me tell you... "Players rights" will exist in the future, you will own your character and your time and effort spent on the game will be your propriety and significant game changes will be seen as a break in the contract, but not now, it is still on its infancy. There is a lot of theory to be written and analogies to consumerists rights start to apply and popularization/awakening of the people with real power so we get our "rights".
lol, a good post, and also I took down the title saying it's childish to hate MT's.
I think this new topic is a much more interesting one.
An expansion is a one time fixed price while there is no such thing as cheap RMT since RMT is limitless.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
RMT + subscription cost is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever seen. It is a prime example of greed if I have ever seen one. It essentially boils down to the developers developing a game that they charge a subscription for, but then taking some items out and making you pay extra for them(CO said game changing items would be available through in game means, not all items).
Now the developers make new items. Where are they going to go, to the game where they have little effect on the income? Or to the cash shop where they can make money directly off of them? We both know where.
The real question is, why on earth do developers need to have a cash shop on top of a subscription cost? Subscription prices easily pay for running costs and then some.
When it comes down to it, with RMT + Subscripition, you are paying more money for the same game. Developers should be trying to increase their profits by making better games, not by figuring out ways to make more money off of the same games.
Oh, and the health reform is stupid. Why should I be forced to pay for the people that can't afford it? Or why am I entitled to the money that other people earn?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
An expansion is a one time fixed price while there is no such thing as cheap RMT since RMT is limitless.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
Where are you buying expansions for $60? Whats that, around £35? For an expansion? What game is charging that?
Your pricing is obviously skewed to suit your agenda, which is never a good way to make a valid point.
In the UK expansions usually cost around £15 ($24ish), which makes your list of MT items look really expensive to me, and I don't even get the pleasure of discovering/ winning items that way.
Just stopping by this thread for lulz, and to say that a $20-$40 expansion is far, far, farless expensive than getting the same quality and quantity of content from the "cheapest" RMT schemes / item malls / et cetera.
Most item mall stuff is just fluff accessories, trinkets, and PvP win buttons, anyway.
Why this thread has gone on for five pages is beyond my understanding. The OP is ridiculous and claiming expansions are on par with RMT is just a laughingstock.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
The original topic rather exhausted, I thought I'd change the title to what is currently the hot topic in this thread.
Is there a difference? Aren't Expansions just expensive RMT's of the worst kind?
They cost a lot, often significantly more than the monthly fee. They are practically FORCED! You can't reach max level without them. Can't get the faster mount. Can't get the newest PvP gear. Can't get the new Ability System. Can't use the new Item Slot. You're gimped without it! You're limited without it! And the content? How many people actually reach max level? To all those with Alt-itus, those who slowly crawl to the next level, they never really reach max level. Yet to continue to PvP, or because the features are spread throughout levels, sometimes you are FORCED to buy an expansion which contents you will never see. Or perhaps you don't care about content... but you REALLY want to be that new class or race! Well that's $$$$ just to unlock a class/race. Is this not the exact same as RMT? You can only be level 60. You can't get any powerful, or go anywhere higher, until you pay $$$$$$$$$ to unlock the features. There is a new class ability, and you have to pay $$$$$ to get it.
If an expansion cost $40, and all you get is a level cap increase of 60 to 70, and content for those 10 levels, a new class, and a new race, isn't that the exact same as an RMT where you can buy a potion that gives you +10 levels worth of stats, for $20, $10 to unlock the new class, and $10 to unlock the new race?
So what's so bad about RMT, if they already have EXPANSIONS? Aesthetic RMT? Non-Aesthetic RMT? What gives?
Discuss.
You are right, PAYED expansions are comparable to RMT and I don't like them either.
edit : correction Payed expansions are comparable to MT ( microtransactions ), not RMT ( real money trade ), while I don't like RMT either, I can live with it if it is regulated and only between players, the way it is done in EVE Online is the maximum I tollerate : allowing to buy 30-60 day gametime with ingame money, but only from other players, not directly from CCP, this way they economy is not directly undermined, and once you have enough cash yourself, you can start playing for free using ingame currency. And I only tollerate it because it helps keeping the botters, hackers, and farmers away.
One of the things I like about EVE Online are no payed expansions.
Having no payed expansions works inclusive, everyone is on the same term, it also allows the devs to both expand horizontally ( improve current mechanics, improve current areas, etc ) as horizontally ( more levels/skills, better loot/items/ships )
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I also did not get a reasonable answer out of the OP regarding my own question. When I asked, what is the benefit for the players from the RMT shop, I got the answer "the company makes more money this way". Well, there was an answer, just not to my question.
So far, nothing indicates that a developer taking the mantle of the gold sellers/farmers has any positive effect towards the players of a game. It's a lose - lose situation, less content for more money.
Edit: On another note, why aesthetic RMT is ok and the rest is not? So we will punish role players in MMORPGs now?
You are right, PAYED expansions are comparable to RMT and I don't like them either.
Man, I respect your opinion. Free expansions are nice and make sense, because the devs need to be doing something other than bughunting month after month after month with people's sub money.
However, I seriously doubt you've played a game with an item mall. I've got plenty of online gamer friends who have, and item malls always end up being infinitely more expensive than paying for expansions in the long run.
A new expansion for, say, WoW comes out every 2-3 years. That's approximately 30 months. An expansion that costs $30 costs you an extra $1 a month on average, over time, on top of your sub.
Show me an item mall for a free game where you can get a competitive and satisfying amount of content for $16 a month, or a paid game with item mall where you can happily spend $1 a month to compete, and I will eat my hat.
Currently Playing: EVE Online Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
In theory, there is potentially no difference between a paid expansion and microtransactions. However, in practise, there is a huge difference.
Most games with paid expansions charge a $15 monthly subscription fee and release a paid expansion for about $30-$40 every 1-2 years. So, every year you may spend about $200 (subscription fees + expansion) for unlimited access to every bit of the premium content.
Most games with microtransactions charge no subscription fee or very little. However, they also tend to not have premium content, release fewer balance/content patches, and to have poor support. Also, if one were to get all the content, it would cost thousands of dollars per year. Look at the item malls for major F2P MMORPGs and add up the cost for all the content - it is massive.
You cannot directly compare the two, as there is a huge difference.
Now, what is interesting is the hybrid model where AAA games are incorporating microtransactions. These games are basically double-dipping and potentially making sick profits.
You are right, PAYED expansions are comparable to RMT and I don't like them either.
Man, I respect your opinion. Free expansions are nice and make sense, because the devs need to be doing something other than bughunting month after month after month with people's sub money.
However, I seriously doubt you've played a game with an item mall. I've got plenty of online gamer friends who have, and item malls always end up being infinitely more expensive than paying for expansions in the long run.
A new expansion for, say, WoW comes out every 2-3 years. That's approximately 30 months. An expansion that costs $30 costs you an extra $1 a month on average, over time, on top of your sub.
Show me an item mall for a free game where you can get a competitive and satisfying amount of content for $16 a month, or a paid game with item mall where you can happily spend $1 a month to compete, and I will eat my hat.
I changed my post a bit, cause we are mixing up words here
So yah, microtransactions are worse than expansions, still expansions are not good for the mmo genre either, that was what I wanted to say.
We pay a monthly sub, that should be enough, if it is not, then increase the sub.
EVE Online is one of the few good examples of how to run an MMORPG, wether you like the gameplay or not.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
1) Full Expansions, Small Expansions (Cheaper, large packages of content like EQ2, basically Expansions in installments) 2) RMT Almost always, if you don't purchase #1, you are gimped. You can't reach max level, you can't get the best gear, you can't be the new overpowered class/race, you can't do this, can't do that. Almost ALWAYS- without the expansion, you can't compete with those who have it. These are EXPENSIVE too, sometimes 2-4 times the monthly fee. The difference is what? One is at EB GAMES and Direct2Drive, while the other is on a website in the In-Game Browser?
Are expansions not incredibly expensive, game unbalancing, competition destroying, RMT?
1) expansions... expand the game. I know that sounds dumb, but they provide new areas, content, classes, etc. Generally people who buy the expansion don't hang out in the old world to pwn non-expansion owners. They all play in different level bracket areas and don't affect each other as you so incorrectly speculate.
Furthermore, expansions do not hand people in game items for money. That is to say you don't pay for an expansion, install the new software and log into the game and have items waiting in your mailbox. You have to go forth and achieve to gain the new rewards. To gain new levels you have to adventure. To craft new items you have to train your crafting skill up.
2) microtransactions remove the need to play the game in order to get rewards. That is all they do. Developers are asking players to pay an additional fee for content that was stripped away from the game, removing the need for developers to do their job and associate some sort of ingane content to achieve that reward and simply replaced with a cash opt out system of game design. There is no winner in that formula except the developer.
Removing content from a game and effectively holding rewards hostage from players stands to benefit only one party and harm another. Developers make extra money for not making content for players to enjoy and players lose out on ingame achievements to accomplish. I'm sorry, but game design should never encompass players spending time at their jobs to gain in game rewards. It defeats the entire purpose of a game.
So in summary. Expansions add content for players to, you know, play the game. Microtransactions remove gameplay and charge an additional fee for, you guesses it, not playing the game.
As to selling expansions in small parts instead of 1 big box item, fine. Let developers try it if they like as it is effectively the same thing. SOE tried something similar with their expansion packs. It is still content (not rewards) being sold in a different package. However the market spoke and people prefered developers who gave out free content every few months like blizzard did and the adventure pack model was crushed.
Now I would like to challenge you to a question since you have put so many challenges and questions to other people.
Can you justify microtransactions within a subscription game? Explain how it benefits players. Explain how it makes a better game or doesn't contradict game design objectives of the subscription model.
Comments
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
My answer would be, sometimes I don't want to GRIND for the money in game, because it takes 4 hours to buy the new cloak. I'd rather PLAY the game NOW having fun grinding for XP so I can advance. Often grinding for money is different from getting XP, especially when you REALLY want that new cloak. Yes, it's a great achievement to FINALLY afford it, but sometimes it's boring, not fun.
Meanwhile, the 4 hours it would take me to grind for that cloak, I already made working a job for 5 minutes (if it's like, $1) and it's just more fun to pay that $1, get the cloak, then play for fun- spending 4 hours in a group killing monsters.
Also... most of the time, the coolest fluff items that even a level 1 can use, are so expensive only a max level 80 can buy them. This means I will NEVER have that fluff item, solely because the market hates me, because my currency is COPPER, not PLATINUM, lol.
That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding. Not to mention that 4 hours at minimum wage is worth just a bit less than double the monthly fee.
Why should my work in game be worth a tiny tiny fraction of what my time IRl is- if I find both a "boring grind"???
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot" when the other guy could simply work 1 extra hour overtime and buy 500 new loots. If money is tight, it's as simple as thinking "What do I want more, to grind 8 hours for my new mount while drinking a 6-pack of coke, or not buy the coke, and save myself those 8 hours and buy the cape NOW."
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
Explain to everyone here how RMT shops take advantage of the players.
Your logic acts as if it's the company's fault that some players will think "Oh god, I just HAVE to buy that new costume or I'll just DIE!!!"
Taking advantage of people with obsessive collecting disorders would be a valid argument, but the majority of RMT customers won't have that. And how can a company deny EVERYONE a RMT shop solely because SOME people have gambling problems or associated disorders?
RMT shops can benefit players because it produces money for the company. This is how business works. Company gets money, and it can then hire more people, give workers more hours, spend more money on their company to make it better, providing the customer with more options.
A company who has a massive success in its RMT costume shop will spam the market with TONS of extra costumes to purchase. This means that the customer gets (x) amount of more costumes to choose from than normal. If the RMT shop never existed or never made profits, there would be less costumes to choose from.
And everyone knows it's always better to have more choices in costumes!
I am wary that I had to explain basic business and common sense to you. The more money a company gets, the more it can and often will put into its product. Even if they simply pocket the money, it still does provide more leverage for the game via investors, expansion quality, etc. People will see a profit, and will want to invest in that profit to keep the money coming in.
I've yet to see a correlation made between revenue earned and increased investment in the game.
That's what we would hope would happen, but I've yet to see it happen. EVE Online updates its hardware and game regularly, but doesn't charge for anything other than the $20 initial account fee and $15 fee thereafter (besides portrait swap for $10).
CoH/CoV recently introduced costume packs, and the updates actually got less frequent.
If what you say is truly the case, then WoW should have about 4 times the amount of updates and added content than the next largest competitor. But it doesn't. Most of the content updates are included in the extra priced expansions, but what does all that money into extra priced expansions really net the player in terms of added investment in the game? Only the incentive to add more extra priced expansions...as has been shown in EQ and EQ2.
Businesses want to make money, but there are many ways to make money...many of them far easier and more lucrative than MMO publishing. Frankly, I could care less how they get the game in my hands as long as it's worth the money...and merely telling me how important it is to them to sell me incidentals from the item store doesn't convince me that they really need to do so.
Everyone wants money, and everyone wants more money. The difference between me and what the MMO folks are doing is that I have to make a case why I should get more money, while these MMO publishers just charge.
I like how you COMPLETELY avoided my question, which was the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of my post.
Explain to everyone here how RMT shops take advantage of the players. By tempting you to buy the next hot must have item.
I think Archangel needs to cool down as you are coming over a bit immature and the ranting you are doing is not exactly forum friendly.
No offense intended, but there isn't any tone to my posts. The capital letters are not "yelling" but emphasis of an important point.
Thanks for the advice, but being forum friendly requires too much thinking of what to NOT say, and in the end only the quiet (including short replies, like yours) are ever considered friendly.
Not to mention the internet has about the same acceptance and friendliness of a maximum security prison. No offense.
It's just what happens when you have the complete lack of tone in all forms of communication, a massive cultural and sub cultural difference in communication style, and a large group of different people consisting of normal people, niche gamers, anti-social disorders, and teenagers all rolled into one.
I just write as is, and don't edit or consider how I say it. It really isn't worth the effort, since most people will be the same regardless of how you say it. Those who disagree, will disagree. Those who flame you, will flame you. Those who troll, will troll. Regardless if you say "May you consider this side of the argument just one more time?" or "OMG RETARD, I ALREADY SAID THAT!!!!!!!11111"
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of you due to your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
Of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often the forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
Then the debate isn't about ez mode or hard mode- but Accomplishment vs "Fun".
Play to Achieve, fun via accomplishment.
Pay to Achieve, or "instant-action", fun via playing the game.
Two different play styles. And it's an MMO, so shouldn't the company appease both sides, as long as they aren't hurt?
You can play to achieve, and never spend a dime on RMT. You enjoy the game because you accomplished getting something that cost money, but for free. Hard work FTW!
The others can buy a new cape, and play, having fun. Video gaming FTW!
Don't Aesthetic MT's solve this problem for everyone?
As an old saying goes,
"If it's not fun for you, you can simply turn it off."
You accomplish the exact same thing regardless of there being an easier way to do it or not.
It's why they have difficulty levels on Console Games.
The game is the same if you beat it on Easy or on Hard- it's your choice, and you accomplish the same thing. But the sense of accomplishment is there for those who want it, and the other way for those who don't.
1) Expansions are just additional content that you have to play (preferbly alongside friends), learn, enjoy the lore of, and beat in order to EARN your reward. They are still Play to Achieve gaming.
2) RMT is Pay to Achieve ez mode instant gratification public w*anking in a virtual environment.
1) Expansions raise the level cap. This is perhaps the BIGGEST non-aesthetic game balance issue possible. Being able to be lvl 80 while everyone else can only be level 70 is a big deal. Often you are forced to pay $50 just to be able to get those 10 extra levels.
I never claimed that expansions didnt have game effects... that wasnt in my point.
It's the playing of the new content thats important, and it's the playing of the content I pay the money for.
Play to Achieve.
2) RMT costs IRL money. What is the difference between someone working 2 more hours at the Coal Mine IRL for a new In-Game Gold Cape , and someone working 2 hours at the Gold Mine IN GAME to sell Ore at the AH for a new In-Game Gold Cape?
Because in option 1 they havent actually played the game... Thats at the core of what I am saying. Why Log in just to exist in an virtual market place where you buy your shiny new cape? What do you actually get from that as a gamer? How have you learnt and 'beat' the content? How do you feel proud of what you have done? Not flaming, just asking honest questions.
This is what I simply don't understand that at all... The joy in these games, for me, isnt simply owning 'stuff' for the sake of owning stuff, it's the journey and fun involved to get it. The 'stuff' is just the cherry on the cake, but it sure aint the whole cake, and I like cake.
How is it that if you work IRL busting your butt at the Coal Mine to pay for a Gold Cape, it's EZ MODE.
But when you work in a game clicking a Mouse Button every 10 seconds "busting your butt" to pay for a Gold Cape, it's "hardcore"?
It's all about Play to Achieve gaming vs Pay to Achieve.
If you just want to log in to a virtual market place and buy shiny pixels for a avatar, fair enough, but I dont.
Then the debate isn't about ez mode or hard mode- but Accomplishment vs "Fun".
well, I wouldnt ever say it's that, because accomplishment to me IS fun. hanging out with friends for the accomplishemtn is ALSO fun. Learning the skills needed to suceed is again yet more fun.
'Fun' is a subjective description, and it only has the value we as individuals give it. Your fun isnt my fun.
Play to Achieve gaming, for me, strips away all the fun in a game to the point where it is no longer even a game but only a virtual market place. That, to me, isnt fun.
Play to Achieve, fun via accomplishment.
Pay to Achieve, or "instant-action", fun via playing the game.
Well, forming a group of my friends to go out and win a item via playing the game is 'instant action' surely?
Only we get the added thrill of winning the item at the end of it all, which has to be more exciting then just hitting the 'purchase' button?
Two different play styles. And it's an MMO, so shouldn't the company appease both sides, as long as they aren't hurt?
But the fact is MT can't help but affect the whole game, no matter how fluff it is.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
Actually there is a legitimate reason to "hate" MTs if the game already has a monthly subscription. This is called the "slippery slope effect". If developers see people are willing to pay a fee on top of a fee what is to stop other companies from doing so? Also, most developers will see it as an extra cash cow and eventually WILL be selling game breaking items.
A case from the history books. EQ2 decided it was going to make ONE server have an RMT. They stated theywould never ever under any circumstances deviate from having just one server having RMTs. Two years later and all the EQ2 servers have RMT shops along with some of the other SOE games.
Even you stated "as long as they aren't forced, don't unbalance competition". Well, this is exactly what will EVENTUALLY happen and by giving up in the initial fight you will have lost the means to turn things around.
I think that hatred is wrong, because it's out of fear of what most likely won't happen.
I would like to believe that the majority of MMO players would immeditely stop their subscriptions if they changed RMT radically from small aesthetic things like costumes, travel improvements, or xp boosts- to big things like the Sword of a Thousand Truths usable in PvP!
The moment it begins to lose balance to the game, I believe most people would say "Nope! Cya!"
I know I certainly would. Few people would follow the example of something that made people, and their money, leave. And if they still made more profit? Well, then the audience would be split, and MMO's would come out for both sides.
Perhaps it would even turn into many many different niche audiences because of the split, and we could FINALLY game an MMO game for MMO gamers. That's what everyone really wants, isn't it? For the WoW Kiddies to leave and for the real gamers to get something besides a failed clone.
Your opinion is a strong one, and is a logical reason to dislike MT's, but I respectfully still disagree that we should fear them. Although we should watch corporations, sometimes we also have to give them freedom. If we don't, we really can't show them WE are the deciding factor in what stays or goes, because we can stop payment at any time we want. Stopping because of Aesthetic MT's isn't going to have enough of a pull, because most people really won't care. "It's just a costume, who cares?" Let them have their aesthetic MT's, and kick them in the balls whenever they think they can do something that we truly won't allow like unbalancing RMT. It would give players a much bigger influence than being divided among opinion. If we only fight back when we are weak, the corporations will just continue to think even more "It doesn't matter what they think."
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
I get what your saying. It's never gonna be how I feel perosnally, but fair enough. I'm off to bed now though, but it was a good chat.
I actually wish CO well, the genre dosent need another turkey after all, and I hope that you guys that are looking for what it offers have a blast, but it simply isnt for me. Everything I read about it is jarring me right now, despite me being an old school Champions PnP RPG player and still loving my comics, but I'm not threatened by it being a success...
...as long as Aion is a bigger success lol, just to prove that devs don't have to have MT in a game, despite modern thinking of a lot of people that have fallen for the propaganda, to make a healthy profit to support and develop their game
Heres the rub. MT=RL in MMO's. Instead of a virtuous virtual world where play and some rng determine how you do the rich can now buy there way through whatever they want whil the poor schlub has to schlub his/her way through.
I'm not some hellbent idealogue i realize this happens even in games that actively discourage mt. People with money find a way to buy their way to their goals.
The rude tone of your OP aside, Pay to Achieve gaming is just weak, no matter if the the purchased rewards have stats or not.
My personal views on how ingame MT of any kind destroys the very fabric of what makes a game a game (turning it into just another virtual environment to spend money in) aside, I have no idea why people gain any satisfaction at all from buying virtual baubles in a virtual environment with RL money... It's just really confusing to me. Why do you WANT to spend money on content in a game when the game really should be fun enough to make you want to play through it in order to earn it?
I simply don't get the thrill of spending cash on a new cloak (or whatever) in CO knowing that I could have actually enjoyed playing the game to win it.
I'm sorry, I apologize for the rude tone.
It's kindof hard not to be rude on the internet. I know it's counter-productive to conversation to start out rude, but it does filter out the people who are so insecure or sensitive that they can't handle a debate without emotions being involved or thinking every negative word is directed straight at them.
Statement Reads: Hatred as an emotion is Childish.
They Read: Disliking MT's makes YOU a child.
"OMG, I DISLIKE MT'S, SO I'm A CHILD!?!? GRRRRGHRR!!!"
Always failing to realize it's not MT's, but the bad attitude, and it's not you, but the extremists, who are CHILDISH, not a child.
Maybe I should write in a foreign language.
Hatred for = "If you disagree,"
Aethetic MT's = YOU!
"is Childish" = "are a CHILD!"
But expecting people to read on the INTERNET is the first sign of Insanity.
How about expecting people to actually answer the question I asked them?
edit to highlight the question for clarity :P
Sry, Ididn't even read all of that. I must've got distracted IRL at the very end, and thought I finished. Common mistake, didn't mean the disrespect.
It's cool, no offense taken.
...That is only one small explanation of why I'd rather spend $1 IRL cash instead of 4 hours of boring grinding.
I get what you are saying, but my advice would be to probably find a game that you don't find boring, rather then let these people drip bleed revenue out of your dislike of the game mechanics they have put into the game that they have sold you.
By supporting MT in the way that you see it you open the door for them to make fluff items deliberatly labourious to get in order to encourage you to spend extra RL money in their shop. This already happens in many F2P games and has a huge impact right across the game, making it extra boring for those that choose to NOT buy into the mall.
of course, these people either crack in the end and buy from the mall or quit. Usually the game is designed that you are very invested in it before they hit you like this, so the mall is often to forced choice.
I never understand people who grind what they find boring and "hard work" for 8 hours in an MMO to get that "new loot"
because we find the actual playing of the game fun. We enjoy hanging out with friends, experiencing new stories, and beating the challenge. Winning loot at the end is the final joy. The journey is the point, not the loot at the end.
I have never found an mmo hard work, ever, and I'm an original EQer. If I did I would just log off.
Well that is a very good reason why to boycott MT's in many games.
But I don't believe some games like Champions Online, CoX, or EQ2's mini-expansions (i dont know about its RMT, thats new) or UO's "Advanced Character" are going to change the market to that extreme, so I wouldn't boycott it.
I guess it really depends on the company. If I don't trust them because they are OBVIOUSLY exploitatuve, shady, and greedy, I will boycott ANY form of MT. If I trust them, I dont see the problem. Not every company wants to screw the consumers. Some see that as bad for business.
Also, I'd NEVER buy from Korean RMT games. Their prices and items are ridiculous. $10 for a ninja mask, or $5 for a hat that only lasts for 2 weeks? No thanks!
But the North American RMT's seem perfectly fine for me, except expansions. I will never spent any money on a game that I already pay $15 for, but I dont care if the RMT's exist for people who want to. And if something is REALLY cool, I'd buy it. Maybe. I actually dislike the expensive cost of most expansions, and the fact I am FORCED into buying them. Large amounts of money is different from $1 here or there.
As a player who rarely reaches max level, expansions are awful. Often they have VERY needed features for all levels, but the majority of the content is something I will never experience, so I am essentially paying $20-60 for just one or two minor, but important features to unlock. It can cost as much as $20 just to be able to play as a Blood Elf, and nothing else.
I get what your saying. It's never gonna be how I feel perosnally, but fair enough. I'm off to bed now though, but it was a good chat.
I actually wish CO well, the genre dosent need another turkey after all, and I hope that you guys that are looking for what it offers have a blast, but it simply isnt for me. Everything I read about it is jarring me right now, despite me being an old school Champions PnP RPG player and still loving my comics, but I'm not threatened by it being a success...
...as long as Aion is a bigger success lol, just to prove that devs don't have to have MT in a game, despite modern thinking of a lot of people that have fallen for the propaganda, to make a healthy profit to support and develop their game
I just wish there was more money in the gaming market, lol. That way everyone can have every game they want.
"Small Business" could just be niche markets, and everyone would be happy, as long as WoW doesn't become like WalMart, lol jk
lol, a good post, and also I took down the title saying it's childish to hate MT's.
I think this new topic is a much more interesting one.
An expansion is a one time fixed price while there is no such thing as cheap RMT since RMT is limitless.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
Bill Roper, is that you?
RMT + subscription cost is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever seen. It is a prime example of greed if I have ever seen one. It essentially boils down to the developers developing a game that they charge a subscription for, but then taking some items out and making you pay extra for them(CO said game changing items would be available through in game means, not all items).
Now the developers make new items. Where are they going to go, to the game where they have little effect on the income? Or to the cash shop where they can make money directly off of them? We both know where.
The real question is, why on earth do developers need to have a cash shop on top of a subscription cost? Subscription prices easily pay for running costs and then some.
When it comes down to it, with RMT + Subscripition, you are paying more money for the same game. Developers should be trying to increase their profits by making better games, not by figuring out ways to make more money off of the same games.
Oh, and the health reform is stupid. Why should I be forced to pay for the people that can't afford it? Or why am I entitled to the money that other people earn?
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Here's my input on this MT and xpac thing.
1st off Transfer servers and name changes don't count as Micro-transactions(MTs).
There are, however a from of Real Money Trade (RMT).
Somehow they get rolled to together because MTs are RMTs, as well.
I look at those as admin fees, and a way to keep people from doing it when ever they please.
That why it cost so much to do those things.
Having Micro-transactions in game isn't a bad thing, but it has to be done in a certain way.
In a Free to Play game, even the ones with a optional low cost sub, they make prefect sense, as that is how they make money.
In a Pay to Play game, I'd be fine with it if:
1) All items in the shop are fluff, and do give you any bonus of any kind.
(Giving something like a travel power that looks different isn't any faster then the ones you get the game normally would fall under fluff as well)
2) The Sub was lower then the Normal ($10 or less) or they never charge you for game content, No xpacs just content patches, on a regular basis.
In the case of CO Your 15/month subs also gets you a few Cryptic Bucks for MT items would by fine too.
If an expansion cost $60, and gives you
1) One new island.
2) 5 More Levels
3) 1 New Race
4) 1 New Class
5) 3 New Features
6) One special item
and RMT shop has these things for sale:
1) One new island. $20
2) 5 More Levels $20
3) 1 New Race $6
4) 1 New Class $6
5) 3 New Features $2 each
6) One special item $2
7) 2hours Double XP for $5
That makes RMT cheap. Only $2 for a feature, item, and only $6 for a new class/race? That's cheap. Cheap RMT.
$60 is not cheap. Also, if the things are the same- permanent unlocks- then there is absolutely no difference between buying 1-6 at the RMT shop or buying the Expansion (except that RMT is better, because you can save money by not buying what you dont want.) I'm sorry, but RMT's have fixed prices too. It's not like Monday the Warforged race is $5, while Friday it's $10.
But according to you, the RMT is not considered cheap because you can buy #7 limitless?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand your logic at all.
Where are you buying expansions for $60? Whats that, around £35? For an expansion? What game is charging that?
Your pricing is obviously skewed to suit your agenda, which is never a good way to make a valid point.
In the UK expansions usually cost around £15 ($24ish), which makes your list of MT items look really expensive to me, and I don't even get the pleasure of discovering/ winning items that way.
I know which I prefer.
Just stopping by this thread for lulz, and to say that a $20-$40 expansion is far, far, far less expensive than getting the same quality and quantity of content from the "cheapest" RMT schemes / item malls / et cetera.
Most item mall stuff is just fluff accessories, trinkets, and PvP win buttons, anyway.
Why this thread has gone on for five pages is beyond my understanding. The OP is ridiculous and claiming expansions are on par with RMT is just a laughingstock.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
You are right, PAYED expansions are comparable to RMT and I don't like them either.
edit : correction Payed expansions are comparable to MT ( microtransactions ), not RMT ( real money trade ), while I don't like RMT either, I can live with it if it is regulated and only between players, the way it is done in EVE Online is the maximum I tollerate : allowing to buy 30-60 day gametime with ingame money, but only from other players, not directly from CCP, this way they economy is not directly undermined, and once you have enough cash yourself, you can start playing for free using ingame currency. And I only tollerate it because it helps keeping the botters, hackers, and farmers away.
One of the things I like about EVE Online are no payed expansions.
Having no payed expansions works inclusive, everyone is on the same term, it also allows the devs to both expand horizontally ( improve current mechanics, improve current areas, etc ) as horizontally ( more levels/skills, better loot/items/ships )
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
I also did not get a reasonable answer out of the OP regarding my own question. When I asked, what is the benefit for the players from the RMT shop, I got the answer "the company makes more money this way". Well, there was an answer, just not to my question.
So far, nothing indicates that a developer taking the mantle of the gold sellers/farmers has any positive effect towards the players of a game. It's a lose - lose situation, less content for more money.
Edit: On another note, why aesthetic RMT is ok and the rest is not? So we will punish role players in MMORPGs now?
Man, I respect your opinion. Free expansions are nice and make sense, because the devs need to be doing something other than bughunting month after month after month with people's sub money.
However, I seriously doubt you've played a game with an item mall. I've got plenty of online gamer friends who have, and item malls always end up being infinitely more expensive than paying for expansions in the long run.
A new expansion for, say, WoW comes out every 2-3 years. That's approximately 30 months. An expansion that costs $30 costs you an extra $1 a month on average, over time, on top of your sub.
Show me an item mall for a free game where you can get a competitive and satisfying amount of content for $16 a month, or a paid game with item mall where you can happily spend $1 a month to compete, and I will eat my hat.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
In theory, there is potentially no difference between a paid expansion and microtransactions. However, in practise, there is a huge difference.
Most games with paid expansions charge a $15 monthly subscription fee and release a paid expansion for about $30-$40 every 1-2 years. So, every year you may spend about $200 (subscription fees + expansion) for unlimited access to every bit of the premium content.
Most games with microtransactions charge no subscription fee or very little. However, they also tend to not have premium content, release fewer balance/content patches, and to have poor support. Also, if one were to get all the content, it would cost thousands of dollars per year. Look at the item malls for major F2P MMORPGs and add up the cost for all the content - it is massive.
You cannot directly compare the two, as there is a huge difference.
Now, what is interesting is the hybrid model where AAA games are incorporating microtransactions. These games are basically double-dipping and potentially making sick profits.
Man, I respect your opinion. Free expansions are nice and make sense, because the devs need to be doing something other than bughunting month after month after month with people's sub money.
However, I seriously doubt you've played a game with an item mall. I've got plenty of online gamer friends who have, and item malls always end up being infinitely more expensive than paying for expansions in the long run.
A new expansion for, say, WoW comes out every 2-3 years. That's approximately 30 months. An expansion that costs $30 costs you an extra $1 a month on average, over time, on top of your sub.
Show me an item mall for a free game where you can get a competitive and satisfying amount of content for $16 a month, or a paid game with item mall where you can happily spend $1 a month to compete, and I will eat my hat.
I changed my post a bit, cause we are mixing up words here
So yah, microtransactions are worse than expansions, still expansions are not good for the mmo genre either, that was what I wanted to say.
We pay a monthly sub, that should be enough, if it is not, then increase the sub.
EVE Online is one of the few good examples of how to run an MMORPG, wether you like the gameplay or not.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
1) expansions... expand the game. I know that sounds dumb, but they provide new areas, content, classes, etc. Generally people who buy the expansion don't hang out in the old world to pwn non-expansion owners. They all play in different level bracket areas and don't affect each other as you so incorrectly speculate.
Furthermore, expansions do not hand people in game items for money. That is to say you don't pay for an expansion, install the new software and log into the game and have items waiting in your mailbox. You have to go forth and achieve to gain the new rewards. To gain new levels you have to adventure. To craft new items you have to train your crafting skill up.
2) microtransactions remove the need to play the game in order to get rewards. That is all they do. Developers are asking players to pay an additional fee for content that was stripped away from the game, removing the need for developers to do their job and associate some sort of ingane content to achieve that reward and simply replaced with a cash opt out system of game design. There is no winner in that formula except the developer.
Removing content from a game and effectively holding rewards hostage from players stands to benefit only one party and harm another. Developers make extra money for not making content for players to enjoy and players lose out on ingame achievements to accomplish. I'm sorry, but game design should never encompass players spending time at their jobs to gain in game rewards. It defeats the entire purpose of a game.
So in summary. Expansions add content for players to, you know, play the game. Microtransactions remove gameplay and charge an additional fee for, you guesses it, not playing the game.
As to selling expansions in small parts instead of 1 big box item, fine. Let developers try it if they like as it is effectively the same thing. SOE tried something similar with their expansion packs. It is still content (not rewards) being sold in a different package. However the market spoke and people prefered developers who gave out free content every few months like blizzard did and the adventure pack model was crushed.
Now I would like to challenge you to a question since you have put so many challenges and questions to other people.
Can you justify microtransactions within a subscription game? Explain how it benefits players. Explain how it makes a better game or doesn't contradict game design objectives of the subscription model.