I agree with the OP. You can't blame Blizzard for the epic-fail POS MMOs that other companies have released.
I tried WoW and didn't like it. But that's just me. I know a lot of people who do like it.
What the other companies producing these failed copycats need to realize is this;
If a person wants to play WoW, then they'll just play WoW. They're not going to play an obvious attempt at a 2nd-rate imitation. And, people that don't like WoW are certainly not going to play a copycat of WoW.
What other companies _should_ be doing (and some are finally getting a clue, maybe???) is they need to produce the "anti-WoW" to grab those that not only dislike WoW, but also those of us that have been waiting and wanting and searching for a new MMO we could call our own.
They need to start from a blank slate, and say "Okay, what would I want to play".
Now, if their plan eventually leads back to the answer of the question "Is this game like WoW?" being a Yes, they need to just stop. Put down the pen... Put down the ponter... Step away from the white-board. Forget about developing something new, and just go play WoW.
I mean, seriously, if I go to the store because I'm the mood for some Oreos, do I come home with Hydrox or some other generic knock-off?? Heck no! I come home with some flippin' Oreos!
So why do gaming developers think that _anyone_ who already loves WoW would play a poor imitation, as well as anyone who hates WoW bother to play a WoW-copy?
ps: If you are a Hydrox lover, please don't bash me... You like what you like and that's all any of us can do. I like me some Oreos,
Originally posted by Daffid011 Companies need to stop trying to immitate world of warcraft and start immitating Blizzard. Blizzard beat the market with two simple rules.
Is it fun? If it wasn't it got removed or changed until it was. Is it ready for release? If it was not ready, it was not released.
Imagine what the market would look like if only a few other mmos had followed these principles. Look at the failures on the market and see how many did not apply those two simple principles to their design process.
I'm frequently amazed when I demo new games. Not at the lack of "polish", but at the horrifically moronic top-level design choices they make. I'll put up with more than a few bugs if the core gameplay is at least potentially interesting. But in the vast majority of cases, it isn't. Most games that get released should have been aborted before alpha testing started. All gaming companies have pretty much the same quality of programmers; the differences in the final product all stem from the top-level decisionmaking process.
What Blizzard does that the vast majority of game makers don't do is set up "prototype" teams, who monkey around with new concepts - sometimes for years - most of which never see the light of day. Only a few of them are finally greenlit for development. The huge amount of time and money Blizzard spends after that point isn't so much the CAUSE of their success as it is an EFFECT of their wilingness to test and abandon bad ideas as early as possible. Once their core gameplay has passed the "fun" test, there's no real risk in investing huge amounts toward developing the content.
Most other gaming companies don't seem to do it that way. Some bigwig decides what kind of game he thinks he wants, then he steamrolls it through to release - without any checkpoint along the way for somebody to drop the hatchet on his baby if doesn't look quite right. People always complain the game is "released too early", but that's very seldom the case. FUN isn't something you can patch into a game; it has to be there from the beginning, or else all you're doing is trying to polish a turd.
People are constantly slamming Blizzard for all the POS MMORPG's that have been released since its debut and this is just silly. Let's look at this from another angle. If Ford produces a bad car do we blame Honda? If Maytag produces a bad washer to we blame Westinghouse? No. You blame the people responsible - the company behind the product. Why is it then that in the case of MMORPG's when ever a game is released and it turns out bad so many people turn and point the finger at Blizzard instead of the people and company behind the game? Did Blizzard make the game? Did they produce the game? Did they have anything to do with the gmes design or how it was programmed or what direction the games designer took it? The simple and correct answer is - No. No they did not. It was the games designers and producers that created and released the game and not Blizzard. If they triedto copy Blizzard's game design and failed - then it is still not Blizzards fault but the company that tried to copy it - it is their fault. So the next time you go pointing a finger at Blizzard - think about the reality of it. Blizzard didn't make that game - that other company did. They designed it. They produced it. They released it. Just as when Ford makes a car that is bad we don't go blaming Honda for it - we blame Ford.
People are constantly slamming Blizzard for all the POS MMORPG's that have been released since its debut and this is just silly. Let's look at this from another angle. If Ford produces a bad car do we blame Honda? If Maytag produces a bad washer to we blame Westinghouse? No. You blame the people responsible - the company behind the product. Why is it then that in the case of MMORPG's when ever a game is released and it turns out bad so many people turn and point the finger at Blizzard instead of the people and company behind the game? Did Blizzard make the game? Did they produce the game? Did they have anything to do with the gmes design or how it was programmed or what direction the games designer took it? The simple and correct answer is - No. No they did not. It was the games designers and producers that created and released the game and not Blizzard. If they triedto copy Blizzard's game design and failed - then it is still not Blizzards fault but the company that tried to copy it - it is their fault. So the next time you go pointing a finger at Blizzard - think about the reality of it. Blizzard didn't make that game - that other company did. They designed it. They produced it. They released it. Just as when Ford makes a car that is bad we don't go blaming Honda for it - we blame Ford.
fail
Then ask yourself why these other game companies are not trying to emulate other mmos. Yes, on the surface everyone wants to grab a piece of the warcraft pie, but you have to look deeper.
For example: why isn't anyone trying to emulate Star Wars Galaxies, Dark and Light or Vanguard?
Answer: who in their right mind is going to emulate failure?
Is another company going to emulate everquest 2, dungeons and dragons online or tabula rasa? No.
If any one of those games would have taken the time and effort to properly do what they set out to achieve the market might be drastically different.
This thread is evidence of that. Listen to all the whining about how "wow ruined the market". Wow is just one game. Now imagine what would happen if there were 2 games fighting tooth and nail for market share.
Imagine if SWG had another year to actually put content in the game, fix bugs and balance the systems.
Imagine if Vanguard had an actual studio manager to keep the project on track and not let Brad flush his project down the toilet.
Imagine if Tabula Rasa didn't have an entire rewrite of the game from a high fantasy game to a quasi first person shooter in space.
Imagine if dark and light had pulled of the 1 server massive world with hundred of towns, sandbox style gameplay with a real living breathing world that responded to the players actions.
Imagine if EQ2 wasn't rushed to market at least a year before it was ready just so it could beat world of warcraft to a release date.
All it would have taken for the entire market to be much different than it is right now is for one company to do their job. Just one.
I didn't read this whole WOW vs the world thread. But the reason people blame Blizzard is they dumbed everything down to appeal to the widest possible audience. EQ was the first one to get really big in the days of 56k modems. EQ was hard and harsh. DAOC came out and made an EZ mode EQ clone (It did have great RvR). Then WOW came out and made an even simpler easier game for the fantasy genre. But it had appealed to a much larger audience and was promoted much better.
WOW didn't have anything special. It was just easy to get into and play. EQ raids took way more people, planing, and time so it was a niche audience of hardcore players. Even WOWs graphics were outdated the day it was released. EQ had armor that actually had poloygons years earlier while WOW was still painting textures on the stock avatar for most armor. EQ2 had better graphics, so did AO, SWG and EVE. Yet those simple cartoon like graphics in WOW were well done and looked nice, plus, they run better on low end systems. Hell, at the time WOW was released EQ2 had voice actors on most of their quests. WOW felt like a real step backwards technology wise, but the mechanics and PvP were fun.
I did have a lot of fun in WOW till it turned into grinding for everything. Grind arena, BG, factions, etc. The game just lacked depth compared to a lot of other MMO's I played. The PVP servers were a blast pre BG and arenas though when sides used to just randomly attack a zone just for the hell of it. There was nothing to gain then except the fun of the PvP.
Personally I like complicated MMO's like SWG pre CU or Eve, but I'm a minority and game companies know it. Love em or hate em, Blizzard sure as hell knows their audience.
I didn't read this whole WOW vs the world thread. But the reason people blame Blizzard is they dumbed everything down to appeal to the widest possible audience. EQ was the first one to get really big in the days of 56k modems. EQ was hard and harsh. DAOC came out and made an EZ mode EQ clone (It did have great RvR). Then WOW came out and made an even simpler easier game for the fantasy genre. But it had appealed to a much larger audience and was promoted much better. WOW didn't have anything special. It was just easy to get into and play. EQ raids took way more people, planing, and time so it was a niche audience of hardcore players. Even WOWs graphics were outdated the day it was released. EQ had armor that actually had poloygons years earlier while WOW was still painting textures on the stock avatar for most armor. EQ2 had better graphics, so did AO, SWG and EVE. Yet those simple cartoon like graphics in WOW were well done and looked nice, plus, they run better on low end systems. Hell, at the time WOW was released EQ2 had voice actors on most of their quests. WOW felt like a real step backwards technology wise, but the mechanics and PvP were fun. I did have a lot of fun in WOW till it turned into grinding for everything. Grind arena, BG, factions, etc. The game just lacked depth compared to a lot of other MMO's I played. The PVP servers were a blast pre BG and arenas though when sides used to just randomly attack a zone just for the hell of it. There was nothing to gain then except the fun of the PvP. Personally I like complicated MMO's like SWG pre CU or Eve, but I'm a minority and game companies know it. Love em or hate em, Blizzard sure as hell knows their audience.
But WOW wasn't really a step backwards. It was a step forwards in so many ways, which is why it was so successful so quickly. The quest system was so much further developed. EQ2’s cut scenes hardly added anything, because the characters just animated so badly. EQ2 was actually a step back. Look at its con and agro system. Talk about simplistic. The game showed you exactly what would attack and what wouldn't. And the combat was certainly lacking compared to WOW. EQ2 felt slow and ponderous. Its zones were TINY with load screens constantly, while WOW had almost no load screens at all and its zones were wide open. It was no accident why EQ2 got buried and it wasn't just the tech. Its art design was plastic and fake while trying to look realistic, failing on all levels.. Its characters looked like dead mannequins and animated even worse. It was so unappealing and blah, while WOW was vibrant, colorful and FULL of life and little details. Polys be damned. ART trumps tech every time. Gameplay trumps all and WOW played better than EQ2 and every MMO before it.. You could feel it within minutes of playing. The characters controlled better than any MMO, more like an action game. The combat was responsive. There was charm oozing from every corner of the game. The quests were unlike anything you’ve seen in a MMO before. All the tedium you felt while playing EQ or DAOC vanished. It was all gone. Even WOW’s death system was more creative than any MMO before it. Who did a ghost world/parallel dimension before in a MMO?
And it didn’t have less depth and still doesn’t. WOW’s classes had more abilities than previous MMOs. Each class played completely different from the next, instead of copies with different spell or ability names. There was still item degradation and plenty of min/maxing. Intuitive game play doesn’t mean less depth and something complicated doesn’t mean more depth. Complication for the sake of it because the developer couldn’t streamline the systems, equals bad design. Removing tedious things like naked corpse runs or EXP loss didn’t remove depth. It removed things everyone hated. Removing trains and other common genre defining bugs was fantastic. Theres a reason WOW was the first MMO to be described as “polished”. NO MMO was ever considered even close to polished before WOW. That was no accident.
By the way, EQ and DAOC players left en masse the day WOW released. So it appealed to everyone, not just NEW players. Don’t confuse simple with intuitive. There’s a big difference.
If Ford created a piece of junk car and sold a record number of them and then GM, Toyota and on and on did the same hoping to cash in then yeah, i would blame Ford for the influx of junk on the market.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
you and everyone who agrees with you is an idiot you - know what instead of blaming blizzard for making as you say "shit" game blame the gamers who left in masses and stayed with wow, if the game is SOOO shit are you saying that around 11 million gamers are idiots? does that make you a special boy who knows quality mmo..and that 11 million people who play wow are idiots?
PEOPLE WAKE UP - WOW is a good game, sure its not appealing too everyone but that doesnt stop it having most content, most quests, a HUGE diverse story, great graphics (for its time and unlike AION which forces you too pay several hundred pounds just so you can run it) instead of blaming blizzard who by the way make some of the best games EVER like diablo and starcraft....they are also working hard too give us updates and good customer support so stop hating the success of a company.
you know its funny wow has been out for a long time and so far no game has even come near too the same impact wow has made of the mmo world, wow basically made MMOs so popular and no game has been credited as a WOW killer.....so stop hating and accept the fact that wow is a balanced well made game...
blame the gamers for being stupid if you think wow is shit or name me 1 game that even comes close too the same standard as wow.....
I remember playing Everquest 2 on release, and after the 15th install disc was done and I had loaded it up, was shocked at how half-assed it was put together. But as Moorgard would say "THAT IS BY DESIGN". Crafting would kill you... "THAT IS BY DESIGN". Mobs were locked, but gathering materials for crafting wasn't... "THAT IS BY DESIGN". It was designed to specified perfection.
The game, for me, was shit on release, but that was "by design..." So I kindly left before my 30 day trial was up. It was THEIR WORLD... and they were welcome to ruin it as they saw fit.
I still refused to play a RPG based off of Warcraft, because... come on. All they were trying to do was get a piece of the MMO pie, and shut the door on EQ2, which had failed me.
I went back to CoH for a bit... and happened to start talking MMO's with a guy that worked at a game store. He was praising WoW like it was the answer to life, the universe, and everything. So I bought the game, kept in touch, and loaded it up. I recall hating the hands and feet at character creation and almost uninstalled it... because I thought that if EQ2 could make some decent dolls, this was a massive step backwards... but I tried it anyways.
After playing for about 1/2 an hour... I had that "feeling" again. The same "virginal" feeling I had when I was killing snakes in EQ1 when I tried it for the first time. I was actually ENJOYING myself and my time playing it. I loved the gameplay, the fluid feel of mechanics... and QUESTS! Oh my god... quests! Granted in hindsight "go bring me 5 feet from rare drop mobs" got old... but having played games that seemed to mainly focus on "Camp & Kill shit just because" idealism, this was one of the biggest ubersteps forward for me for a game. Also story... a MMO with "story"? What the hell? Granted I always wanted WoW to use a cutscene thing like with Guild Wars, or FFXI... because blizzard has more money than god and could liven up the scene a little more now that 5 years have passed.... but I digress.
Simplicity isn't always a step backward. I think it was Giotto di Bondone who drew a perfect circle freehand as a demonstration of his skill to the Pope.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
You go to restaurants that serve many different dishes, all good. Then all of a sudden a chef comes along and makes a dish a lot of people like... then the other cooks seeing the dish, try to do it as well becuase it looks like that's what everyone wants and its profitable. Suddenly the other dishes suffer. So who's to blame?
Most would say the other cooks but in all reality they are just doing what seems to them what everyone wants... which is sad becuase in all logic that would be stupid.. as why would people go to their ga.. *ahem* eat their dish if the one chef does it a lot better?
The one chef just cant help that hes effecting the other restaurants around him. .. but on the flip side, the other cooks should have tried just to make their other dishes better.
*taps chin*
I just wish the other devs would use their brains and realize copying them isn't going to work.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
People are constantly slamming Blizzard for all the POS MMORPG's that have been released since its debut and this is just silly. Let's look at this from another angle. If Ford produces a bad car do we blame Honda? If Maytag produces a bad washer to we blame Westinghouse? No. You blame the people responsible - the company behind the product. Why is it then that in the case of MMORPG's when ever a game is released and it turns out bad so many people turn and point the finger at Blizzard instead of the people and company behind the game? Did Blizzard make the game? Did they produce the game? Did they have anything to do with the gmes design or how it was programmed or what direction the games designer took it? The simple and correct answer is - No. No they did not. It was the games designers and producers that created and released the game and not Blizzard. If they triedto copy Blizzard's game design and failed - then it is still not Blizzards fault but the company that tried to copy it - it is their fault. So the next time you go pointing a finger at Blizzard - think about the reality of it. Blizzard didn't make that game - that other company did. They designed it. They produced it. They released it. Just as when Ford makes a car that is bad we don't go blaming Honda for it - we blame Ford.
Teala, I agree with you 100%. Problem is, you brought this up on the wrong forums. You will find no site that hates on WoW or Blizzard, more than MMORPG.com Not everyone makes P.O.S. vehicles. Look at the Toyota Prius. Awesome car, yet people continue to go back and buy Ford and GM.
People on these forums are acting like AION is the second coming of EQ. What ever. AION isn't new. It's been out a year already. It's just like FFXI where another country had a year's head start on the game. One thing is for certain, just like every other game released the last three years, as soon as the newness wears off people will flock back to WoW and blame Blizzard for AION's short comings.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
EQ - was the Corvette of the mmo's (old school - has a soul - delivered the "goods", powerful)
FFXI / FFXIV - Skyline GT-R of mmo's (this car is the epitome of Japanese sports cars imo, with a track record since the 1970's)
WAR- the Mustang/Camaro of mmo's (lol sorry domestic guys, but your sleds break all the time, but when its runs, it's great!)
Age Of Conan- Dodge Viper of mmo's (Lots of torque here, big numbers and high performance stats, comp reqs at time of... )
Aion - Comparable to the new Hyndai Genesis Coupe. (It's good, but what is it's true potential when it is tuned?) ie: drifting...
WoW - I'd actually say it is a truck. Ford F-150 / Chevy Silverado. Big, popular, reliable, and proven, but everyone doesn't like to drive trucks. It is the workhorse of the mmo genre.
EVE - Muscle cars of the 60's ~70's. These cars can get pretty hardcore if you know what I mean.
UO - don't know too much about it.
If you want to add a game/car company feel free, if I missed somthing.
I don't blame Blizzard. I blame it's playerbase. Not everyone wants to drive a truck as a high speed mmo video game experience. It's just not some peoples tastes... and when all the WoW people try to compare their shit to every game ever created, it rubs certain gamers the wrong way. - thats all...
You go to restaurants that serve many different dishes, all good. Then all of a sudden a chef comes along and makes a dish a lot of people like... then the other cooks seeing the dish, try to do it as well becuase it looks like that's what everyone wants and its profitable. Suddenly the other dishes suffer. So who's to blame? Most would say the other cooks but in all reality they are just doing what seems to them what everyone wants... which is sad becuase in all logic that would be stupid.. as why would people go to their ga.. *ahem* eat their dish if the one chef does it a lot better? The one chef just cant help that hes effecting the other restaurants around him. .. but on the flip side, the other cooks should have tried just to make their other dishes better. *taps chin* I just wish the other devs would use their brains and realize copying them isn't going to work.
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo.
ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all.
its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for
contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
MMO's are no food. To all: log in with your level 28 whatever. Go to Warsong Gulch. Play in the BG for 10 minutes and ask which game gives me these same kind of controls and fluid animated character? Then cry... a lot.
Mmo's are food for the brain. In which, you get a release of dopamine when you log in and get your hand held while walking to your epic treasure loot box.
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo.
ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all. its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
What I hate is how everyone blames everything on wow, wow players or blizzard. It really is fine that you don't like wow. No one is telling you that you have to love it, but don't lay blame everything on wow. Believe it or not many of the people you describe are long time mmo players. Long before wow.
Just because the majority of players have played wow, doesn't mean they are "wow players". I suspect many people would love to be "some other game players", but that other game isn't very good right now.
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo.
ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all. its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
It's okay to hate a game and like a company. There is no doubt about it. But to repeated blame Blizzard or WoW for other companies development decisions is 100% foolish. You don't blame McDonald's because Wendy's food sucks. You just go order your next burger at Ruby Tuesday's. Get the point?
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo.
ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all.
its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for
contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
They probably see this sort of post/opinion as a personal attack because you go on to say you hate them and think they're zombie sheep who inexplicably enjoy playing the worst MMORPG ever.
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo. ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all. its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
They probably see this sort of post/opinion as a personal attack because you go on to say you hate them and think they're zombie sheep who inexplicably enjoy playing the worst MMORPG ever.
Also we tend to hate the zombie sheep who cannot understand that other people like WoW and think it is a good game. These people troll every game that is released, calling it a WoW clone and saying how it is going to fail.
yes, warcraft is a commercial success- a huge one. but that doesn't mean the game isn't pure garbage. it just means the laymen of the gaming world like it. it's unsophisticated. it's simple. it holds your hand and presents absolutely no challenge.
but because it is such a commercial success, other companies have tried to emulate the warcraft formula. so for that reason, people are justified in blaming warcraft for the influx of god-awful theme-park online games that are more of the same garbage, except garbage that's not polished.
i was looking forward to KOTORO as an example; when i saw the first video and realized it was copying the warcraft formula, in essence, i lost all interest. it will probably be a huge success because of how uncomplicated and basic the game will be.
there are a lot of morons out there that can't handle or comprehend games that involve more than pressing WASD and number keys for hours on end.
yes, i'm elitist. yes, i think i'm more intelligent and better than you if you dump hours on end into a game such as warcraft, that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again.
that's such horse shit. yes, warcraft is a commercial success- a huge one. but that doesn't mean the game isn't pure garbage. it just means the laymen of the gaming world like it. it's unsophisticated. it's simple. it holds your hand and presents absolutely no challenge. but because it is such a commercial success, other companies have tried to emulate the warcraft formula. so for that reason, people are justified in blaming warcraft for the influx of god-awful theme-park online games that are more of the same garbage, except garbage that's not polished. i was looking forward to KOTORO as an example; when i saw the first video and realized it was copying the warcraft formula, in essence, i lost all interest. it will probably be a huge success because of how uncomplicated and basic the game will be. there are a lot of morons out there that can't handle or comprehend games that involve more than pressing WASD and number keys for hours on end. yes, i'm elitist. yes, i think i'm more intelligent and better than you if you dump hours on end into a game such as warcraft, that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again.
"that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again."
And what is this MMO you are thinking of but not mentioning that does the opposite of what you're complaining about? Because you've just reamed every MMO out there.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
that's such horse shit. yes, warcraft is a commercial success- a huge one. but that doesn't mean the game isn't pure garbage. it just means the laymen of the gaming world like it. it's unsophisticated. it's simple. it holds your hand and presents absolutely no challenge.
LOL .. i start laughing reading this.
Say that ahead if you have beat all the hardmodes & optimize your gameplay by using the right gear/spec.
Calling a game that needs a SOFTWARE (like rawr) to optimize its gameplay simple is just stupid.
that's such horse shit. yes, warcraft is a commercial success- a huge one. but that doesn't mean the game isn't pure garbage. it just means the laymen of the gaming world like it. it's unsophisticated. it's simple. it holds your hand and presents absolutely no challenge. but because it is such a commercial success, other companies have tried to emulate the warcraft formula. so for that reason, people are justified in blaming warcraft for the influx of god-awful theme-park online games that are more of the same garbage, except garbage that's not polished. i was looking forward to KOTORO as an example; when i saw the first video and realized it was copying the warcraft formula, in essence, i lost all interest. it will probably be a huge success because of how uncomplicated and basic the game will be. there are a lot of morons out there that can't handle or comprehend games that involve more than pressing WASD and number keys for hours on end. yes, i'm elitist. yes, i think i'm more intelligent and better than you if you dump hours on end into a game such as warcraft, that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again.
That is still not Blizzards fault. If those other companies try and fail it is their fault - not Blizzards. Or maybe if your co-worker fails to be as good a worker as you are - you'd like to be blamed for his poor work. LOL!
Comments
I agree with the OP. You can't blame Blizzard for the epic-fail POS MMOs that other companies have released.
I tried WoW and didn't like it. But that's just me. I know a lot of people who do like it.
What the other companies producing these failed copycats need to realize is this;
If a person wants to play WoW, then they'll just play WoW. They're not going to play an obvious attempt at a 2nd-rate imitation. And, people that don't like WoW are certainly not going to play a copycat of WoW.
What other companies _should_ be doing (and some are finally getting a clue, maybe???) is they need to produce the "anti-WoW" to grab those that not only dislike WoW, but also those of us that have been waiting and wanting and searching for a new MMO we could call our own.
They need to start from a blank slate, and say "Okay, what would I want to play".
Now, if their plan eventually leads back to the answer of the question "Is this game like WoW?" being a Yes, they need to just stop. Put down the pen... Put down the ponter... Step away from the white-board. Forget about developing something new, and just go play WoW.
I mean, seriously, if I go to the store because I'm the mood for some Oreos, do I come home with Hydrox or some other generic knock-off?? Heck no! I come home with some flippin' Oreos!
So why do gaming developers think that _anyone_ who already loves WoW would play a poor imitation, as well as anyone who hates WoW bother to play a WoW-copy?
ps: If you are a Hydrox lover, please don't bash me... You like what you like and that's all any of us can do. I like me some Oreos,
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Danag
I'm frequently amazed when I demo new games. Not at the lack of "polish", but at the horrifically moronic top-level design choices they make. I'll put up with more than a few bugs if the core gameplay is at least potentially interesting. But in the vast majority of cases, it isn't. Most games that get released should have been aborted before alpha testing started. All gaming companies have pretty much the same quality of programmers; the differences in the final product all stem from the top-level decisionmaking process.
What Blizzard does that the vast majority of game makers don't do is set up "prototype" teams, who monkey around with new concepts - sometimes for years - most of which never see the light of day. Only a few of them are finally greenlit for development. The huge amount of time and money Blizzard spends after that point isn't so much the CAUSE of their success as it is an EFFECT of their wilingness to test and abandon bad ideas as early as possible. Once their core gameplay has passed the "fun" test, there's no real risk in investing huge amounts toward developing the content.
Most other gaming companies don't seem to do it that way. Some bigwig decides what kind of game he thinks he wants, then he steamrolls it through to release - without any checkpoint along the way for somebody to drop the hatchet on his baby if doesn't look quite right. People always complain the game is "released too early", but that's very seldom the case. FUN isn't something you can patch into a game; it has to be there from the beginning, or else all you're doing is trying to polish a turd.
LOL! You just turned my whole day around!
I need to add that to my work signature,
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Danag
fail
fail
Then ask yourself why these other game companies are not trying to emulate other mmos. Yes, on the surface everyone wants to grab a piece of the warcraft pie, but you have to look deeper.
For example: why isn't anyone trying to emulate Star Wars Galaxies, Dark and Light or Vanguard?
Answer: who in their right mind is going to emulate failure?
Is another company going to emulate everquest 2, dungeons and dragons online or tabula rasa? No.
If any one of those games would have taken the time and effort to properly do what they set out to achieve the market might be drastically different.
This thread is evidence of that. Listen to all the whining about how "wow ruined the market". Wow is just one game. Now imagine what would happen if there were 2 games fighting tooth and nail for market share.
Imagine if SWG had another year to actually put content in the game, fix bugs and balance the systems.
Imagine if Vanguard had an actual studio manager to keep the project on track and not let Brad flush his project down the toilet.
Imagine if Tabula Rasa didn't have an entire rewrite of the game from a high fantasy game to a quasi first person shooter in space.
Imagine if dark and light had pulled of the 1 server massive world with hundred of towns, sandbox style gameplay with a real living breathing world that responded to the players actions.
Imagine if EQ2 wasn't rushed to market at least a year before it was ready just so it could beat world of warcraft to a release date.
All it would have taken for the entire market to be much different than it is right now is for one company to do their job. Just one.
Think about that.
I didn't read this whole WOW vs the world thread. But the reason people blame Blizzard is they dumbed everything down to appeal to the widest possible audience. EQ was the first one to get really big in the days of 56k modems. EQ was hard and harsh. DAOC came out and made an EZ mode EQ clone (It did have great RvR). Then WOW came out and made an even simpler easier game for the fantasy genre. But it had appealed to a much larger audience and was promoted much better.
WOW didn't have anything special. It was just easy to get into and play. EQ raids took way more people, planing, and time so it was a niche audience of hardcore players. Even WOWs graphics were outdated the day it was released. EQ had armor that actually had poloygons years earlier while WOW was still painting textures on the stock avatar for most armor. EQ2 had better graphics, so did AO, SWG and EVE. Yet those simple cartoon like graphics in WOW were well done and looked nice, plus, they run better on low end systems. Hell, at the time WOW was released EQ2 had voice actors on most of their quests. WOW felt like a real step backwards technology wise, but the mechanics and PvP were fun.
I did have a lot of fun in WOW till it turned into grinding for everything. Grind arena, BG, factions, etc. The game just lacked depth compared to a lot of other MMO's I played. The PVP servers were a blast pre BG and arenas though when sides used to just randomly attack a zone just for the hell of it. There was nothing to gain then except the fun of the PvP.
Personally I like complicated MMO's like SWG pre CU or Eve, but I'm a minority and game companies know it. Love em or hate em, Blizzard sure as hell knows their audience.
But WOW wasn't really a step backwards. It was a step forwards in so many ways, which is why it was so successful so quickly. The quest system was so much further developed. EQ2’s cut scenes hardly added anything, because the characters just animated so badly. EQ2 was actually a step back. Look at its con and agro system. Talk about simplistic. The game showed you exactly what would attack and what wouldn't. And the combat was certainly lacking compared to WOW. EQ2 felt slow and ponderous. Its zones were TINY with load screens constantly, while WOW had almost no load screens at all and its zones were wide open. It was no accident why EQ2 got buried and it wasn't just the tech. Its art design was plastic and fake while trying to look realistic, failing on all levels.. Its characters looked like dead mannequins and animated even worse. It was so unappealing and blah, while WOW was vibrant, colorful and FULL of life and little details. Polys be damned. ART trumps tech every time. Gameplay trumps all and WOW played better than EQ2 and every MMO before it.. You could feel it within minutes of playing. The characters controlled better than any MMO, more like an action game. The combat was responsive. There was charm oozing from every corner of the game. The quests were unlike anything you’ve seen in a MMO before. All the tedium you felt while playing EQ or DAOC vanished. It was all gone. Even WOW’s death system was more creative than any MMO before it. Who did a ghost world/parallel dimension before in a MMO?
And it didn’t have less depth and still doesn’t. WOW’s classes had more abilities than previous MMOs. Each class played completely different from the next, instead of copies with different spell or ability names. There was still item degradation and plenty of min/maxing. Intuitive game play doesn’t mean less depth and something complicated doesn’t mean more depth. Complication for the sake of it because the developer couldn’t streamline the systems, equals bad design. Removing tedious things like naked corpse runs or EXP loss didn’t remove depth. It removed things everyone hated. Removing trains and other common genre defining bugs was fantastic. Theres a reason WOW was the first MMO to be described as “polished”. NO MMO was ever considered even close to polished before WOW. That was no accident.
By the way, EQ and DAOC players left en masse the day WOW released. So it appealed to everyone, not just NEW players. Don’t confuse simple with intuitive. There’s a big difference.
Exactly. People are making games that are, face it, strikingly similar to WoW because they ARE trying to copy that ineffable thing that makes WoW so popular. WoW is shit, and the other games are even worse, so they are super-shit. People are trying to snag that market share by copying what exists instead of trying something new. I do, however, blame the companies doing it more than Blizzard, but Blizzard is the reason this is happening.
And you cannot deny that it is happening.
you and everyone who agrees with you is an idiot you - know what instead of blaming blizzard for making as you say "shit" game blame the gamers who left in masses and stayed with wow, if the game is SOOO shit are you saying that around 11 million gamers are idiots? does that make you a special boy who knows quality mmo..and that 11 million people who play wow are idiots?
PEOPLE WAKE UP - WOW is a good game, sure its not appealing too everyone but that doesnt stop it having most content, most quests, a HUGE diverse story, great graphics (for its time and unlike AION which forces you too pay several hundred pounds just so you can run it) instead of blaming blizzard who by the way make some of the best games EVER like diablo and starcraft....they are also working hard too give us updates and good customer support so stop hating the success of a company.
you know its funny wow has been out for a long time and so far no game has even come near too the same impact wow has made of the mmo world, wow basically made MMOs so popular and no game has been credited as a WOW killer.....so stop hating and accept the fact that wow is a balanced well made game...
blame the gamers for being stupid if you think wow is shit or name me 1 game that even comes close too the same standard as wow.....
I remember playing Everquest 2 on release, and after the 15th install disc was done and I had loaded it up, was shocked at how half-assed it was put together. But as Moorgard would say "THAT IS BY DESIGN". Crafting would kill you... "THAT IS BY DESIGN". Mobs were locked, but gathering materials for crafting wasn't... "THAT IS BY DESIGN". It was designed to specified perfection.
The game, for me, was shit on release, but that was "by design..." So I kindly left before my 30 day trial was up. It was THEIR WORLD... and they were welcome to ruin it as they saw fit.
I still refused to play a RPG based off of Warcraft, because... come on. All they were trying to do was get a piece of the MMO pie, and shut the door on EQ2, which had failed me.
I went back to CoH for a bit... and happened to start talking MMO's with a guy that worked at a game store. He was praising WoW like it was the answer to life, the universe, and everything. So I bought the game, kept in touch, and loaded it up. I recall hating the hands and feet at character creation and almost uninstalled it... because I thought that if EQ2 could make some decent dolls, this was a massive step backwards... but I tried it anyways.
After playing for about 1/2 an hour... I had that "feeling" again. The same "virginal" feeling I had when I was killing snakes in EQ1 when I tried it for the first time. I was actually ENJOYING myself and my time playing it. I loved the gameplay, the fluid feel of mechanics... and QUESTS! Oh my god... quests! Granted in hindsight "go bring me 5 feet from rare drop mobs" got old... but having played games that seemed to mainly focus on "Camp & Kill shit just because" idealism, this was one of the biggest ubersteps forward for me for a game. Also story... a MMO with "story"? What the hell? Granted I always wanted WoW to use a cutscene thing like with Guild Wars, or FFXI... because blizzard has more money than god and could liven up the scene a little more now that 5 years have passed.... but I digress.
Simplicity isn't always a step backward. I think it was Giotto di Bondone who drew a perfect circle freehand as a demonstration of his skill to the Pope.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
You go to restaurants that serve many different dishes, all good. Then all of a sudden a chef comes along and makes a dish a lot of people like... then the other cooks seeing the dish, try to do it as well becuase it looks like that's what everyone wants and its profitable. Suddenly the other dishes suffer. So who's to blame?
Most would say the other cooks but in all reality they are just doing what seems to them what everyone wants... which is sad becuase in all logic that would be stupid.. as why would people go to their ga.. *ahem* eat their dish if the one chef does it a lot better?
The one chef just cant help that hes effecting the other restaurants around him. .. but on the flip side, the other cooks should have tried just to make their other dishes better.
*taps chin*
I just wish the other devs would use their brains and realize copying them isn't going to work.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Teala, I agree with you 100%. Problem is, you brought this up on the wrong forums. You will find no site that hates on WoW or Blizzard, more than MMORPG.com Not everyone makes P.O.S. vehicles. Look at the Toyota Prius. Awesome car, yet people continue to go back and buy Ford and GM.
People on these forums are acting like AION is the second coming of EQ. What ever. AION isn't new. It's been out a year already. It's just like FFXI where another country had a year's head start on the game. One thing is for certain, just like every other game released the last three years, as soon as the newness wears off people will flock back to WoW and blame Blizzard for AION's short comings.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
If you want an great car analogy here you go:
EQ - was the Corvette of the mmo's (old school - has a soul - delivered the "goods", powerful)
FFXI / FFXIV - Skyline GT-R of mmo's (this car is the epitome of Japanese sports cars imo, with a track record since the 1970's)
WAR- the Mustang/Camaro of mmo's (lol sorry domestic guys, but your sleds break all the time, but when its runs, it's great!)
Age Of Conan- Dodge Viper of mmo's (Lots of torque here, big numbers and high performance stats, comp reqs at time of... )
Aion - Comparable to the new Hyndai Genesis Coupe. (It's good, but what is it's true potential when it is tuned?) ie: drifting...
WoW - I'd actually say it is a truck. Ford F-150 / Chevy Silverado. Big, popular, reliable, and proven, but everyone doesn't like to drive trucks. It is the workhorse of the mmo genre.
EVE - Muscle cars of the 60's ~70's. These cars can get pretty hardcore if you know what I mean.
UO - don't know too much about it.
If you want to add a game/car company feel free, if I missed somthing.
I don't blame Blizzard. I blame it's playerbase. Not everyone wants to drive a truck as a high speed mmo video game experience. It's just not some peoples tastes... and when all the WoW people try to compare their shit to every game ever created, it rubs certain gamers the wrong way. - thats all...
I like your analogy.
What i hate is, why some people cant understand that other people dont like wow, and they immediately see this as a personal attack on them. I dont like wow, i dont think its a good game..fucking deal with it. A lot of the hate for wow is because of the games community, they troll every game thats newly released, calling it a wow clone, asian grinder or saying how its going to fail. I hate the wow community and the zombie sheep who play the game, its not a good game and even if it had 100 million subscriptions its stilll a very average mmo.
ps: i dont hate blizzard, i think they make great games, but wow is not great at all.
its a cash cow, used to make the great games like diablo3 and starcraft 2, so i thank the wow subscribers for
contributing to the development of other blizzard titles that i do like.
MMO's are no food.
To all: log in with your level 28 whatever. Go to Warsong Gulch.
Play in the BG for 10 minutes and ask which game gives me these same kind of controls and fluid animated character?
Then cry... a lot.
Mmo's are food for the brain. In which, you get a release of dopamine when you log in and get your hand held while walking to your epic treasure loot box.
It's an analogy.... Jesus Christ....
What I hate is how everyone blames everything on wow, wow players or blizzard. It really is fine that you don't like wow. No one is telling you that you have to love it, but don't lay blame everything on wow. Believe it or not many of the people you describe are long time mmo players. Long before wow.
Just because the majority of players have played wow, doesn't mean they are "wow players". I suspect many people would love to be "some other game players", but that other game isn't very good right now.
It's okay to hate a game and like a company. There is no doubt about it. But to repeated blame Blizzard or WoW for other companies development decisions is 100% foolish. You don't blame McDonald's because Wendy's food sucks. You just go order your next burger at Ruby Tuesday's. Get the point?
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
They probably see this sort of post/opinion as a personal attack because you go on to say you hate them and think they're zombie sheep who inexplicably enjoy playing the worst MMORPG ever.
Has anyone ever played Rock N' Roll Racing, for Super NES, made by Blizzard in like the 1990's?
Now that was a really fun game, and the PvP was balanced. =D
They probably see this sort of post/opinion as a personal attack because you go on to say you hate them and think they're zombie sheep who inexplicably enjoy playing the worst MMORPG ever.
Also we tend to hate the zombie sheep who cannot understand that other people like WoW and think it is a good game. These people troll every game that is released, calling it a WoW clone and saying how it is going to fail.
that's such horse shit.
yes, warcraft is a commercial success- a huge one. but that doesn't mean the game isn't pure garbage. it just means the laymen of the gaming world like it. it's unsophisticated. it's simple. it holds your hand and presents absolutely no challenge.
but because it is such a commercial success, other companies have tried to emulate the warcraft formula. so for that reason, people are justified in blaming warcraft for the influx of god-awful theme-park online games that are more of the same garbage, except garbage that's not polished.
i was looking forward to KOTORO as an example; when i saw the first video and realized it was copying the warcraft formula, in essence, i lost all interest. it will probably be a huge success because of how uncomplicated and basic the game will be.
there are a lot of morons out there that can't handle or comprehend games that involve more than pressing WASD and number keys for hours on end.
yes, i'm elitist. yes, i think i'm more intelligent and better than you if you dump hours on end into a game such as warcraft, that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again.
the official MMORPG.com deadhead
"that requires absolutely no thinking-power or creativity; just persistence in grinding and pressing the same keys over and over and over again."
And what is this MMO you are thinking of but not mentioning that does the opposite of what you're complaining about? Because you've just reamed every MMO out there.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
LOL .. i start laughing reading this.
Say that ahead if you have beat all the hardmodes & optimize your gameplay by using the right gear/spec.
Calling a game that needs a SOFTWARE (like rawr) to optimize its gameplay simple is just stupid.
That is still not Blizzards fault. If those other companies try and fail it is their fault - not Blizzards. Or maybe if your co-worker fails to be as good a worker as you are - you'd like to be blamed for his poor work. LOL!