The tax rate change is a good thing. People should be encouraged to join player corps instead of being rewarded monetarily for staying in NPC corps. However, all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets. Ships which are fit with expensive modules designed to take on rats who don't have a chance is hell against a PvP fit ship. That would last all of a month before new players stopped joining the game and a large portion of the population quit because they were being forced to play a game that they no longer enjoy. Try seeing the game past the limited view of your own targeting reticle.
I don't want easy targets, I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
... all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets.
I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
Be careful with what you wish Metal.
Empire is full of casual players that may leave the game if it becomes too unforgiving. It may sound great to get rid of all these empire dwellers and have a game without safe heavens, but these peace loving empire pilots and alts help pay the game we all play.
I don't think CCP will push them too far. With the majority of the population living in high sec, alienating a large part of their player base is the last thing CCP will do, and I can understand why.
I think we need to remember that not all players are fitted for ratting or pvp. We have players who specialize in industrial and mining and whatnot which makes them even more vulnerable than players who have ships fitted for ratting. If anything I believe that if CCP doesnt want players staying in NPC Corps and wants the players to join a corp, is to just boot them from the corporation at 30-ish days or something like the rookie channel. Im pretty sure the game would be quite distasteful for new players if they got wardec'd and had no idea what to do to defend themselves. Some people want a hardcore game that has no mercy. Some people want a chill, laid back game to play when they have time. I dont think CCP would want to limit it to the former and not the latter as well. Im fairly new to the EVE Universe but im pretty sure that if I got wardec'd within my first month I wouldve been turned off from the game due to griefing. I understand that EVE is pretty ruthless but Id rather have some kind of fighting chance against the corps with t2 bs', bc's, etc while I rock my frigate.
Originally posted by metalhead980 I don't want easy targets, I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
Well right now we are starting to see massive shifts in that, 0.0 the safest place in EVE right now is getting its fix first. When you have alliances with passive incomes in the 7-800 Billion a month they have no risk . When your able to just see the number of local rise and warp off and cloak there is no risk. I've lost far more ships in empire then I have ever lost in 0.0(and almost every ship I did lose in 0.0 had 10-12 replacements waiting). Currently the risk versus reward is a bit screwed but its not in the way that you think:
Low Sec: High risk, minimum Reward
high Sec: Medium Risk, Medium Reward
0.0: Low to No Risk, High reward
Empire you make some solid isk, but I've never made as much as I did in true 0.0 systems poping trip x 1.5mil Bil rats constantly or even just mining out Bis and Ark at just short of 60mil an hour. Of course I wouldn't even need my hands to count how many Hulks I've lost doing that because well that would be none. High sec is about right, its the other 2 secs that are completely borked right now.
Originally posted by Nicoli Well right now we are starting to see massive shifts in that, 0.0 the safest place in EVE right now is getting its fix first. When you have alliances with passive incomes in the 7-800 Billion a month they have no risk . When your able to just see the number of local rise and warp off and cloak there is no risk. I've lost far more ships in empire then I have ever lost in 0.0(and almost every ship I did lose in 0.0 had 10-12 replacements waiting). Currently the risk versus reward is a bit screwed but its not in the way that you think: Low Sec: High risk, minimum Reward high Sec: Medium Risk, Medium Reward 0.0: Low to No Risk, High reward Empire you make some solid isk, but I've never made as much as I did in true 0.0 systems poping trip x 1.5mil Bil rats constantly or even just mining out Bis and Ark at just short of 60mil an hour. Of course I wouldn't even need my hands to count how many Hulks I've lost doing that because well that would be none. High sec is about right, its the other 2 secs that are completely borked right now.
This post made my day.
Funny how someone thinks that Providence is 0.0...
I'm a mission runner, and I spend 100% of my time in high sec. This isn't by choice really, but a playstyle forced on me by the game mechanics. If I want to be able to pvp as more than just fodder, I need high skills and lots of isk. If I want to get those high skills anytime soon, I have to run missions to pay millions of isk for implants. If I want to keep those implants that train my skills, I can't PvP.
I see people here advocating kicking people out of the starter corps after a month- you would have, what maybe 1.5 mil SP at that point? you're going to be able to protect yourself like that? Not so much, your going to die until you have nothing and logout. Same would be true of forcing people in my situation to fight against vets through wardec. Sure you have the option of scanning the recruitment channel for a player corp, but every single one sounds the exact same in their classified ads they call recruitment. I would much rather meet potential corps and allies through actual gameplay (as show in the video that finally convinced me to try the game) than sit around answering ads in eve's version of craigslist.
So if all that means I have to chill in high sec for a few more months building up resources and skills, I'm willing to do it, and I dont think I should have to pay more taxes or be forced into pvp with no chance of winning. Being proud of the how complex the game is at the same time you expect players to jump right into high risk palystyles is just hypocritical.
Originally posted by Jerek_ I'm a mission runner, and I spend 100% of my time in high sec. This isn't by choice really, but a playstyle forced on me by the game mechanics. If I want to be able to pvp as more than just fodder, I need high skills and lots of isk. If I want to get those high skills anytime soon, I have to run missions to pay millions of isk for implants. If I want to keep those implants that train my skills, I can't PvP.
Only thing stopping you from PVPing is your mind, not the skills.
If you want to learn to walk, you have to keep trying and excersising your muscles. The muscles won't grow from waiting.
Well right now we are starting to see massive shifts in that, 0.0 the safest place in EVE right now is getting its fix first. When you have alliances with passive incomes in the 7-800 Billion a month they have no risk . When your able to just see the number of local rise and warp off and cloak there is no risk. I've lost far more ships in empire then I have ever lost in 0.0(and almost every ship I did lose in 0.0 had 10-12 replacements waiting). Currently the risk versus reward is a bit screwed but its not in the way that you think:
Low Sec: High risk, minimum Reward
high Sec: Medium Risk, Medium Reward
0.0: Low to No Risk, High reward
Empire you make some solid isk, but I've never made as much as I did in true 0.0 systems poping trip x 1.5mil Bil rats constantly or even just mining out Bis and Ark at just short of 60mil an hour. Of course I wouldn't even need my hands to count how many Hulks I've lost doing that because well that would be none. High sec is about right, its the other 2 secs that are completely borked right now.
This post made my day.
Funny how someone thinks that Providence is 0.0...
I haven't been in Prov besides passing through in over a year.
I'm a mission runner, and I spend 100% of my time in high sec. This isn't by choice really, but a playstyle forced on me by the game mechanics. If I want to be able to pvp as more than just fodder, I need high skills and lots of isk.
*sigh*
This mindset is why I always try and encourage people to get out of hi-sec as soon as possible. After the first few weeks, more "training time" doesn't make players more ready for PvP, it makes them less ready.
Jerek, I'm not going to go over the long list of how what you said is wrong. I simply dont want to do that all over again, and I dont think you deserve a lecture simply for making a mistake that only affects yourself. I'm not your mom!
So I'm going to ask you to take one single fact about EvE PvP from me on trust. I've been playing EvE, mostly in 0.0 for 3 years, so I do know what I'm talking about here. I might add that I, in my own opinion, am pretty bad at PvP. I kind of panic a bit, and I forget to use the overview properly, and I'm not very good at paying attention to everything that's going on around me. But I can still get results because of the simple factor I am about to reveal right.... now:
PLAYER SKILL BEATS CHARACTER SKILL
Note that "player skill" can encompass many things. In my case, for instance, it was, 2.5 years ago a brief spark from some of my less alcohol-soaked neurons to the effect that, outside of high-sec, the most dangerous places were stargates. So I started making bookmarks at betwen 150 and 200Km away from gates, so I could warp to them, take a look at what was going on at the gate without being attacked or caught in a bubble, and then have plenty of time to warp the hell away or warp to the gate. I began collecting these "gatemarks", so that I could travel in greater safety. Now I have thousands, mostly made in T1 frigates with a MWD and prototype cloak, and I breeze though 0.0 and lo-sec with scarcely a care. Just one example of how a little moment of thought, and a rather larger amount of effort can be more useful than any number of SP.
so being immune to wardecs isnt so great, because you can still be suicide ganked? wow, id never thought of that. you poor man in your unsafe highsec npc corp, it must be terrible. wardeccing a target is not "risk free" for the deccing party, they run the same risks that the target corp does, they can have stuff blown up too.
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.
If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad.
As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.
Likewise with the suicide ganking; it's extremely easy to make sure you never get ganked. You did get ganked, you worked out what you did wrong, you now do it right. Therefore you have a comparitive advantage over people too lazy or foolhardy to apply the proper methods. Remove ganking, and you lose that hard-earned, well-deserved advantage. You're reduced to the same level as some AFKing idiot.
Keep in mind, I never stated that suicide ganking should be removed, and while I agree the wardec mechanic could use some changes (great ideas in here btw) I don't suggest it be completely removed even if the changes don't happen.
People fly PVE fitted ships because they need to earn ISK. Many new players rely on their PVE activites to fund the ships they would lose in a wardec. (heck, I have to do this). My PVP/PVE ratio has to be along the 50/50 ratio or I'll be bled dry. I know some players use Plexes to fund their war efforts, but not everyone has that luxury.
Trouble with facing down the mercs is it is not profitable in the long run. In one war alone we were decced for 6 weeks, lost 12B ISK worth of ships to the enemies 3B, had a good 35% of the membership leave, recruiting came a halt and eventually we paid 2B to the mercs to stop the war.
Only to have 3 more merc corps dec us because they heard we gave a good fight. Eventually we broke the corp into like 5 or 6 and shuttled our industrial minded players away from any war decs.. Strategy worked, but it was lame as I mentioned before.
But all of this is really off topic, I would support a plan to tax NPC corps in order to encourage players to leave them and join in the greater game, but I don't think there needs to be too much more in that regard.
You miss out on a lot of the game if you always stay in an NPC so don't assume its such a pleasant free ride for those folks.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's. While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths. I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point. There's just more to it than that- to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day. The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill. Theres also the other end of the spectrum- fights that were lost before you ever engaged.
Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player. As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.
this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more. In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.
The 11% percent tax is not going to cause any real problems for Jerek_. Its actually about a 3% tax if that since it only effects bounties. It just encourages you to get out into a player corp, Not all corps will make you into a peon or grunt.
Though the sad reality is there is a isk boundry for pvp. And rampant Empire Pirate wardecs do as Kyleran said put either a Stop or a Pause on a group breaking that boundry for little or no chance. If I decided to turn my corp into an Empire wardec corp we would be able to merily slaughter our way through corps with little regard to ship loss. Because we either have the money to back it up or we just have the ships floating around as replacements.
Until the wardec system gets a overhaul with defined objectives, the fact remains that NPC corps need to keep thier immunity.
if you need one more skill point or 1 more isk for that perfect ship before you try pvping, you will never pvp. there will always ALWAYS be one more skill to get to level 5, more isk to have in the wallet to make the loss easier.
if you are unwilling to get into a rifter, tech 1 fit it and go suicide it into lowsec looking for a fight NOW, you will never be willing to do it, so you should probably accept that training for pvp is pointless. if you want a reason to pvp (and thats not a bad thing), then building a reputation as a capable fighter or a fearless player is very much to your advantage and the only way that will happen is via pew pew.
for those interested, Red verses Blue is starting up again soon...
I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's. While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths. I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point. There's just more to it than that- to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day. The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill. Theres also the other end of the spectrum- fights that were lost before you ever engaged. Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player. As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward. this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more. In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.
Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.
Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.
Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.
I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.
Originally posted by Jerek_ I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's. While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths. I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point. There's just more to it than that- to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day. The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill. Theres also the other end of the spectrum- fights that were lost before you ever engaged. Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player. As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.
Honestly, you are only looking for excuses why not to PVP. Your previous post was how you want to PVP but you are not ready, this one is no different.
Look for a corp involved in Factional Warfare or join the warfare yourself if you have enough standings.
Tonight is as good as any other night that will come.
I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's. While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths. I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point. There's just more to it than that- to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day. The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill. Theres also the other end of the spectrum- fights that were lost before you ever engaged. Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player. As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward. this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more. In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.
Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.
Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.
Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.
I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.
It's pretty cool the way this tread came to this post! Perfect solution to what we have been talking about. More people learning real PVP skills in empire is exactly what the game needs.
... all the people who want NPC corps to be wardec(able) just want easy targets.
I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
Be careful with what you wish Metal.
Empire is full of casual players that may leave the game if it becomes too unforgiving. It may sound great to get rid of all these empire dwellers and have a game without safe heavens, but these peace loving empire pilots and alts help pay the game we all play.
I don't think CCP will push them too far. With the majority of the population living in high sec, alienating a large part of their player base is the last thing CCP will do, and I can understand why.
I have nothing against Empire mission runners or any other type of player in empire space. I only have a problem with No risk NPC corps.
I seek balance, honestly. Imo every mechanic in this game should hold sometype of risk. I would hate to force my mission runner buddies out of the game. But right now the ones that stay in NPC corps make too muck isk with near no risk.
New players should join corps and learn how the hell the game works before creating a corp and proclaiming that they're willing and able to take responsibility for the safety and well-being of its members. There is no excuse for not doing this with organisations like EvE University in the game. The only "problem" with wardecs is that creating a corp is too easy and too cheap. If it took at least 1 skill to level 5 and cost 100M ISK, then new players wouldn't be fooled into thinking that creating a corp is something a new player should do. If you create a corp you're effectively raising a flag and proclaiming that you're ready to compete with the big boys. Dont complain if some of the big boys take you at your word. The people complaining about wardecs are people who are suffering from the misconception that anyone anywhere in EvE deserves any safety without securing it themselves. All that is different from 0.0 in hi-sec are the rules of engagement.
I've read some of your posts here and you seem to have some brains so I'll give you something to look.
Try thinking "bottom up" instead of "Top down". The "under 1m sp" crowd of players. 3,867 players in the rookie channel earlier today. I seriously doubt that most of them were vets rolling up another alt. How many will stay? Good question.
8th day of play here. Would I join a player corp right now? No. Would I stay in the game if they took away the protections I get while learning? No. I'd quit but if I do have those protections, when I do get more comfortable with the game.. I'll probably be out there but *NOT YET*.
I'm a veteran MMO player so I've seen about every dirty trick and scumbag stunt you can imagine in various games. The way I phrased it to some folks in EVE about the subject -- Think of yourself as a child released into a park full of pedophiles. If they offer anything or ask for anything, don't be overly surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.
*THAT* pretty much sums up the degree of paranoia I try and pass on to new players and "joining a player corp" is as high risk as going to 0.0 sec if you don't take the time to learn about them *BEFORE* joining. So joining a new corp? Forget it. There won't be info on them available for you to find out if they are going to shaft you until they've been around a while and most of your more senior "respectable" corps will have SP limits to join them.
A corp recruiter and their "friend" invited a few of us from the rookie channel into a chat session to pitch our joining their new corp. I knew enough to right click their picture and check the info the game shows. After I commented on their 3 day old corp, with 9 members and 20% corporate tax rate, he offered to give us each 500 mill just for coming out to their station and joining. What 3 day old corporation is going to have billions of ISK around to give to new recruits *AND* a station already up and running??? That's when I tossed out the pedophile statement into the channel and yeah, everyone got a snicker and nobody went to visit their station...
You recommend joining a corp "NOW" to "learn" about the game? thanks but no thanks. I'll stick in the relative safety of the NPC corps until I've figure out a bit more about how the hell to avoid dirty tricks. -- you know the "which end your hat should go on" basics vs just jumping in and finding out I landed in the shark tank vs swimming pool.
I can't argue that Eleazaros, That said you should be looking at corps that do similiar things to what you are looking forward to. If anything you may be able to talk to them and get some experience with how they operate before you put any risk in joining them. Always be weary of the corp that offers a lot to new players... Thats either a corp trying to rip you off, or a corp begging to get robbed blind.
Park full of pedophiles.... that's awesome man. I hope you dont mind if I use that?
Yeah anyway, point taken, EvE is tough and difficult for new players and all that... but the tax will hardly hit new players at all. You pretty much have to be doing level 3 missions or higher for the tax to be noticeable. By which point the training wheels should be ready to come off.
And even if they're not, like I said: EvE Uni. Agony Unleashed.
new players arent even going to notice an 11% taxrate, the only people who are going to notice and care will be the year old toons playing with officer fittings and trying to maximise their isk/hour so they can buy new shiny toys.
i bring gifts! (by gifts i mean taxes, sorry) reported by CCP Soundwave | 2009.09.21 21:43:06 | NEW | Comments
Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt
As some of you have noticed, NPC corporations on Singularity are now being taxed at 11%. This corporation tax functions in the exact same way you know them from player corporations; a certain part of your hard earned income disappears and you probably never see it again. Now that I think about it, it functions a lot like taxes in real life do... oh well. The tax applies to mission rewards, bounties and the likes, so if you're worried that your corporation will suddenly take a large chunk out of your wallet, don't be; that is not how it works. If you are in Faction Warfare, you do not need to worry either, the militias will not be taxed. Service guarantees citizenship and all that, so keep on trucking.
So why this change?
* It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens. * NPC corporations are meant to be temporary spaces where people can go about their daily activities while searching for a player corporation. Currently the level of comfort they provide, both in terms of war declaration immunity and 0% tax, give them an inherent advantage over player corporations which was never intended. Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations. * We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role. That said, this change is not implemented to destroy NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player.
So why 11%?
* After researching average taxes on player corporations, this number seems the most fair, when it comes to maintaining the balance between giving player corporations a competitive edge, and still keeping NPCs habitable. The large majority of corporations in EVE have relatively low levels of tax, which should be reflected in the NPC corporation taxes. * 11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.
So you are in a NPC corporation, what now?
* This might be the perfect time to start looking around for a player corporation. There are several places to look, such as the recruitment forum on eve-online.com, in-game adverts or the recruitment channel. * If you are in the habit of bossing people or pets around in real life, you may just want to start your own corporation. Corporations do not need a thousand members to be enjoyable, in fact, many people prefer smaller corporations to the bigger ones. * Still want to stay in an NPC corporation? Thats absolutely fine too, but remember this: while you may escape death in EVE, taxes will still get you.
I am happy to present you a significant change in Dominion expansion - NPC corp taxes.
Originally posted by CCP Eris Discordia
This hsn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis.
Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average.
While I think this tax is a good idea the people that stay In NPC corps (usually mission alts) dont give a shit about a 15% tax.
Wanna get people out of those lame NPC corps? make that tax like 30%. or better yet make NPC corps have the option to be wardec'd lol.
now that would be funny
I agree seeing all those newbies which i cant touch is so frustrating i want to mercilesly gank every newbie
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
Comments
I don't want easy targets, I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
Be careful with what you wish Metal.
Empire is full of casual players that may leave the game if it becomes too unforgiving. It may sound great to get rid of all these empire dwellers and have a game without safe heavens, but these peace loving empire pilots and alts help pay the game we all play.
I don't think CCP will push them too far. With the majority of the population living in high sec, alienating a large part of their player base is the last thing CCP will do, and I can understand why.
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I think we need to remember that not all players are fitted for ratting or pvp. We have players who specialize in industrial and mining and whatnot which makes them even more vulnerable than players who have ships fitted for ratting. If anything I believe that if CCP doesnt want players staying in NPC Corps and wants the players to join a corp, is to just boot them from the corporation at 30-ish days or something like the rookie channel. Im pretty sure the game would be quite distasteful for new players if they got wardec'd and had no idea what to do to defend themselves. Some people want a hardcore game that has no mercy. Some people want a chill, laid back game to play when they have time. I dont think CCP would want to limit it to the former and not the latter as well. Im fairly new to the EVE Universe but im pretty sure that if I got wardec'd within my first month I wouldve been turned off from the game due to griefing. I understand that EVE is pretty ruthless but Id rather have some kind of fighting chance against the corps with t2 bs', bc's, etc while I rock my frigate.
Playing: EVE Online
Well right now we are starting to see massive shifts in that, 0.0 the safest place in EVE right now is getting its fix first. When you have alliances with passive incomes in the 7-800 Billion a month they have no risk . When your able to just see the number of local rise and warp off and cloak there is no risk. I've lost far more ships in empire then I have ever lost in 0.0(and almost every ship I did lose in 0.0 had 10-12 replacements waiting). Currently the risk versus reward is a bit screwed but its not in the way that you think:
Low Sec: High risk, minimum Reward
high Sec: Medium Risk, Medium Reward
0.0: Low to No Risk, High reward
Empire you make some solid isk, but I've never made as much as I did in true 0.0 systems poping trip x 1.5mil Bil rats constantly or even just mining out Bis and Ark at just short of 60mil an hour. Of course I wouldn't even need my hands to count how many Hulks I've lost doing that because well that would be none. High sec is about right, its the other 2 secs that are completely borked right now.
This post made my day.
Funny how someone thinks that Providence is 0.0...
I'm a mission runner, and I spend 100% of my time in high sec. This isn't by choice really, but a playstyle forced on me by the game mechanics. If I want to be able to pvp as more than just fodder, I need high skills and lots of isk. If I want to get those high skills anytime soon, I have to run missions to pay millions of isk for implants. If I want to keep those implants that train my skills, I can't PvP.
I see people here advocating kicking people out of the starter corps after a month- you would have, what maybe 1.5 mil SP at that point? you're going to be able to protect yourself like that? Not so much, your going to die until you have nothing and logout. Same would be true of forcing people in my situation to fight against vets through wardec. Sure you have the option of scanning the recruitment channel for a player corp, but every single one sounds the exact same in their classified ads they call recruitment. I would much rather meet potential corps and allies through actual gameplay (as show in the video that finally convinced me to try the game) than sit around answering ads in eve's version of craigslist.
So if all that means I have to chill in high sec for a few more months building up resources and skills, I'm willing to do it, and I dont think I should have to pay more taxes or be forced into pvp with no chance of winning. Being proud of the how complex the game is at the same time you expect players to jump right into high risk palystyles is just hypocritical.
Only thing stopping you from PVPing is your mind, not the skills.
If you want to learn to walk, you have to keep trying and excersising your muscles.
The muscles won't grow from waiting.
This post made my day.
Funny how someone thinks that Providence is 0.0...
I haven't been in Prov besides passing through in over a year.
*sigh*
This mindset is why I always try and encourage people to get out of hi-sec as soon as possible. After the first few weeks, more "training time" doesn't make players more ready for PvP, it makes them less ready.
Jerek, I'm not going to go over the long list of how what you said is wrong. I simply dont want to do that all over again, and I dont think you deserve a lecture simply for making a mistake that only affects yourself. I'm not your mom!
So I'm going to ask you to take one single fact about EvE PvP from me on trust. I've been playing EvE, mostly in 0.0 for 3 years, so I do know what I'm talking about here. I might add that I, in my own opinion, am pretty bad at PvP. I kind of panic a bit, and I forget to use the overview properly, and I'm not very good at paying attention to everything that's going on around me. But I can still get results because of the simple factor I am about to reveal right.... now:
PLAYER SKILL BEATS CHARACTER SKILL
Note that "player skill" can encompass many things. In my case, for instance, it was, 2.5 years ago a brief spark from some of my less alcohol-soaked neurons to the effect that, outside of high-sec, the most dangerous places were stargates. So I started making bookmarks at betwen 150 and 200Km away from gates, so I could warp to them, take a look at what was going on at the gate without being attacked or caught in a bubble, and then have plenty of time to warp the hell away or warp to the gate. I began collecting these "gatemarks", so that I could travel in greater safety. Now I have thousands, mostly made in T1 frigates with a MWD and prototype cloak, and I breeze though 0.0 and lo-sec with scarcely a care. Just one example of how a little moment of thought, and a rather larger amount of effort can be more useful than any number of SP.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Yeah, I lost about 100M in Datacores once flying them in a cheap cruiser that someone through was worth killing a 25M ship for. (Now I pick them up in heavily tanked BS's and BCer's)
As for wardecers risk, nonsense, for the most part they fit out PVP ships while their targets are normally fit in PVE ships.
I was in a large, carebear empire corp, and we'd get wardec'd all the time and the minute we'd come out in force, (up to 75 ships) even the baddest of the Merc corps would suddenly hop in station and play station camping games. (understandable of course, EVE's about winning, not honor)
But they certainly didn't risk much of anything.
If people in a wardecced corp are flying PvE-fitted ships, they deserve to lose them. That's a pretty realistic outcome for someone making a choice that bad.
As for you guys facing down the mercs.... well done, but yeah exactly. People can do that instead of complaining that they did something as insanely thick as go mining while war-dec'd and consequently lost their ship. What's the problem here? I'm just not seeing it.
Likewise with the suicide ganking; it's extremely easy to make sure you never get ganked. You did get ganked, you worked out what you did wrong, you now do it right. Therefore you have a comparitive advantage over people too lazy or foolhardy to apply the proper methods. Remove ganking, and you lose that hard-earned, well-deserved advantage. You're reduced to the same level as some AFKing idiot.
Keep in mind, I never stated that suicide ganking should be removed, and while I agree the wardec mechanic could use some changes (great ideas in here btw) I don't suggest it be completely removed even if the changes don't happen.
People fly PVE fitted ships because they need to earn ISK. Many new players rely on their PVE activites to fund the ships they would lose in a wardec. (heck, I have to do this). My PVP/PVE ratio has to be along the 50/50 ratio or I'll be bled dry. I know some players use Plexes to fund their war efforts, but not everyone has that luxury.
Trouble with facing down the mercs is it is not profitable in the long run. In one war alone we were decced for 6 weeks, lost 12B ISK worth of ships to the enemies 3B, had a good 35% of the membership leave, recruiting came a halt and eventually we paid 2B to the mercs to stop the war.
Only to have 3 more merc corps dec us because they heard we gave a good fight. Eventually we broke the corp into like 5 or 6 and shuttled our industrial minded players away from any war decs.. Strategy worked, but it was lame as I mentioned before.
But all of this is really off topic, I would support a plan to tax NPC corps in order to encourage players to leave them and join in the greater game, but I don't think there needs to be too much more in that regard.
You miss out on a lot of the game if you always stay in an NPC so don't assume its such a pleasant free ride for those folks.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'll be the first to admit, I have not pvped in eve, at least not intentionally, but I have spent countless hours pvping in ffa pvp mmo's. While I'm not saying one is equal to the other, there are universal truths. I totally agree, player skill is the most important factor, and yes, it is my mindset that keeps me from pvping in eve at this point. There's just more to it than that- to me, pvp without reason is pointless, if it wasnt i'd play some game with battlegrounds and call it a day. The greatest, most rewarding fights to be had are those you shouldn't technically win, but do thanks to better strategy and skill. Theres also the other end of the spectrum- fights that were lost before you ever engaged.
Theres a balance between the two in eve just like every other game ever made, and my character simply hasn't reached that point regardless of how good or bad I am as a player. As far as I can tell, if I want to become effective and self relaint and not be some big corps little goon to toss around, what I'm doing now is my only way forward.
this is kinda a derailment of thread, but my point in all this was simply that people sometimes have a reason for being in these npc corps, and whats done to the system to stop people taking advantage of it effects new players just as much or more. In some ways increasing tax is even counter-productive, as 11% more tax is 11% more time it will take to achieve what goals and get out.
The 11% percent tax is not going to cause any real problems for Jerek_. Its actually about a 3% tax if that since it only effects bounties. It just encourages you to get out into a player corp, Not all corps will make you into a peon or grunt.
Though the sad reality is there is a isk boundry for pvp. And rampant Empire Pirate wardecs do as Kyleran said put either a Stop or a Pause on a group breaking that boundry for little or no chance. If I decided to turn my corp into an Empire wardec corp we would be able to merily slaughter our way through corps with little regard to ship loss. Because we either have the money to back it up or we just have the ships floating around as replacements.
Until the wardec system gets a overhaul with defined objectives, the fact remains that NPC corps need to keep thier immunity.
if you need one more skill point or 1 more isk for that perfect ship before you try pvping, you will never pvp. there will always ALWAYS be one more skill to get to level 5, more isk to have in the wallet to make the loss easier.
if you are unwilling to get into a rifter, tech 1 fit it and go suicide it into lowsec looking for a fight NOW, you will never be willing to do it, so you should probably accept that training for pvp is pointless. if you want a reason to pvp (and thats not a bad thing), then building a reputation as a capable fighter or a fearless player is very much to your advantage and the only way that will happen is via pew pew.
for those interested, Red verses Blue is starting up again soon...
Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.
Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.
Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.
I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Honestly, you are only looking for excuses why not to PVP. Your previous post was how you want to PVP but you are not ready, this one is no different.
Look for a corp involved in Factional Warfare or join the warfare yourself if you have enough standings.
Tonight is as good as any other night that will come.
Good luck.
Having tens of millions of SP or billions of ISK worth of ships wont stop you getting fucked about by bad corps. Real in game experience will.
Seriously, when it comes to the good corps, few types of players get as little respect as the "I stayed in hi sec for 2 years until I was "ready" for PvP". A worthwhile 0.0 corp will always, always choose a 6M SP player who has been in lo-sec/0.0 since he was 2 weeks old and can point to a string of real fights rather than a 46MP SP player who has done nothing but grind missions and then arrive in 0.0 assuming that his faction-fit command ship will pwn everything.
Really, all you're doing is making your learning experiences more expensive. Oh yeah and wasting your time. If you truly do want to PvP in EvE, the very best thing you can do towards that goal is go PvP.
I note that Red Versus Blue has just restarted. Go join Red. Or Blue. No-one will give a shit how many SP you have or what ship you're in. All they'll care about is that you're ready to fight. The experience you'll gain in a week of easily accessible empire PvP will be worth a year's skillpoints.
It's pretty cool the way this tread came to this post! Perfect solution to what we have been talking about. More people learning real PVP skills in empire is exactly what the game needs.
I want everyone to have some kind of risk in their game play.
Be careful with what you wish Metal.
Empire is full of casual players that may leave the game if it becomes too unforgiving. It may sound great to get rid of all these empire dwellers and have a game without safe heavens, but these peace loving empire pilots and alts help pay the game we all play.
I don't think CCP will push them too far. With the majority of the population living in high sec, alienating a large part of their player base is the last thing CCP will do, and I can understand why.
I have nothing against Empire mission runners or any other type of player in empire space. I only have a problem with No risk NPC corps.
I seek balance, honestly. Imo every mechanic in this game should hold sometype of risk. I would hate to force my mission runner buddies out of the game. But right now the ones that stay in NPC corps make too muck isk with near no risk.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
I've read some of your posts here and you seem to have some brains so I'll give you something to look.
Try thinking "bottom up" instead of "Top down". The "under 1m sp" crowd of players. 3,867 players in the rookie channel earlier today. I seriously doubt that most of them were vets rolling up another alt. How many will stay? Good question.
8th day of play here. Would I join a player corp right now? No. Would I stay in the game if they took away the protections I get while learning? No. I'd quit but if I do have those protections, when I do get more comfortable with the game.. I'll probably be out there but *NOT YET*.
I'm a veteran MMO player so I've seen about every dirty trick and scumbag stunt you can imagine in various games. The way I phrased it to some folks in EVE about the subject -- Think of yourself as a child released into a park full of pedophiles. If they offer anything or ask for anything, don't be overly surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.
*THAT* pretty much sums up the degree of paranoia I try and pass on to new players and "joining a player corp" is as high risk as going to 0.0 sec if you don't take the time to learn about them *BEFORE* joining. So joining a new corp? Forget it. There won't be info on them available for you to find out if they are going to shaft you until they've been around a while and most of your more senior "respectable" corps will have SP limits to join them.
A corp recruiter and their "friend" invited a few of us from the rookie channel into a chat session to pitch our joining their new corp. I knew enough to right click their picture and check the info the game shows. After I commented on their 3 day old corp, with 9 members and 20% corporate tax rate, he offered to give us each 500 mill just for coming out to their station and joining. What 3 day old corporation is going to have billions of ISK around to give to new recruits *AND* a station already up and running??? That's when I tossed out the pedophile statement into the channel and yeah, everyone got a snicker and nobody went to visit their station...
You recommend joining a corp "NOW" to "learn" about the game? thanks but no thanks. I'll stick in the relative safety of the NPC corps until I've figure out a bit more about how the hell to avoid dirty tricks. -- you know the "which end your hat should go on" basics vs just jumping in and finding out I landed in the shark tank vs swimming pool.
I can't argue that Eleazaros, That said you should be looking at corps that do similiar things to what you are looking forward to. If anything you may be able to talk to them and get some experience with how they operate before you put any risk in joining them. Always be weary of the corp that offers a lot to new players... Thats either a corp trying to rip you off, or a corp begging to get robbed blind.
Park full of pedophiles.... that's awesome man. I hope you dont mind if I use that?
Yeah anyway, point taken, EvE is tough and difficult for new players and all that... but the tax will hardly hit new players at all. You pretty much have to be doing level 3 missions or higher for the tax to be noticeable. By which point the training wheels should be ready to come off.
And even if they're not, like I said: EvE Uni. Agony Unleashed.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
new players arent even going to notice an 11% taxrate, the only people who are going to notice and care will be the year old toons playing with officer fittings and trying to maximise their isk/hour so they can buy new shiny toys.
that is called faction warfare.
from here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=700
CCP and their stupdity of awesomeness...
While I think this tax is a good idea the people that stay In NPC corps (usually mission alts) dont give a shit about a 15% tax.
Wanna get people out of those lame NPC corps? make that tax like 30%. or better yet make NPC corps have the option to be wardec'd lol.
now that would be funny
I agree seeing all those newbies which i cant touch is so frustrating i want to mercilesly gank every newbie
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981