No instancing is better, if people are camping spawns all day then there is something else wrong with the game.
Consider a game with no instances, then add the following:
more dungeons, especially smaller ones.
no static named mobs, but random drops so that people don't place value on one dungeon based on a certain powerful item.
enemies don't just stand around while you fight up to their point, if they see or hear a battle then they join in. this way you kind of have to go to a dungeon based on how big your group is, which should not be restricted to a small number.
mobs respawn based on dungeon size, making it always better to go to another dungeon than camp the one you just cleared.
This way you have to go through a dungeon and then move on to the next. Named mobs like a boss goblin could show up in any goblin dungeon randomly, meaning the bigger your group the bigger the dungeon you could clear, the more likely you'd find named mobs, and soloers could do small ones etc etc group size could be unrestricted maybe.. i dunno
but instancing is a cheap lazy temporary solution, so when you say you approve of instancing you're really saying that you approve of it as a workaround for other problems.
Originally posted by Swoogie please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e
Thanks!
SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
EQ1 (Everquest), before the Shadows of Luclin expansion did EVERYTHING right. EVERYTHING was pretty much right about that game.
1. A world
2. A punishing death penalty
3. People stepping on each other's toes with disputed campsites, "trains", etc...
All of the above created a living breathing world filled with player interaction and hilarious player drama.
Now EQ was expanded too much, and the opening of a central zone (Plane of Knowledge) with transporters killed the world and doomed the overall experience. Not to mention, the graphics were allowed to stagnate.
But in it's day, EQ was a fantastic MMO experience and has yet to be replicated in a well-executed and polished form. And NO, it's not the "first kiss phenomenon"; it's the right mix of ingredients in game design.
Newer games with their "instancing", "phasing", "locked encounters" and such are really blunting the joy of gameplay and further isolating players and their impact upon one another. Those games might as well go offline and dive directly into single-player format, in my opinion.
MMO's need player interaction and depencency, just like a dance needs partners to waltz with, and an occasional toe to step on for added drama.
Originally posted by Swoogie please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e
Thanks!
SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
I hate instancing. I love death penalties and having to fight with/work around and/or train mobs onto, through other parties. Its much more fun, and realistic and most of all gets the community to play together instead of funneling us away 5-10 persons at a time!
Originally posted by Swoogie please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e
Thanks!
SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
erm why?
Multiplayer is used to play among a circle of FRIENDS who know each other, people tend to play MMO as they can play in a guild and also meet new people
this is like saying, meh you should stay at home and drink instead of going to the pub and socialising, I go pub and socialise but sometimes I like to sit in teh corner with a group of friends and chat but I also like gazing around the pub adn seeing new people
Originally posted by Swoogie please explain the popularity AMONG players for instancing. I know that devs love it because it uses up less bandwidth on thier servers or w/e
Thanks!
SWOOGIE MCDOOGIE
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
I'f I'm doing an instance with my friends, am I not playing with others? Did you NOT read the thread=) Its about time, the quality of the dungeon and those who enjoy ruining the time of others. Instancing allows for playing with your FRIENDS without that time being disrupted. AND instanced dungeons have superior design to open world dungeons. Why would that be a problem? Unless, YOU are the one who enjoys ruining other's playtime? Let me guess=)
I would't play a MMO if I was just playing alone. Single player games offer far superior experiences in every possible way.
Originally posted by pencilrick Newer games with their "instancing", "phasing", "locked encounters" and such are really blunting the joy of gameplay and further isolating players and their impact upon one another. Those games might as well go offline and dive directly into single-player format, in my opinion. MMO's need player interaction and depencency, just like a dance needs partners to waltz with, and an occasional toe to step on for added drama.
Not really sure why you can't see that there's good interaction and bad interaction, and that modern games minimize bad interactions in order to maximize the overall fun factor of the game.
MMOs need player interaction? Totally agree. I get plenty of player interaction from grouping, and from the occasional PVP.
The group and the opposing PVP group are your dance partners. Saying that the dance was better because a bunch of thugs crashed the party and got it shut down by the cops is retarded. The dance is better when you get to have fun with your partner all night long.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
All of the above created a living breathing world filled with player interaction and hilarious player drama.
You see, this is what you don't get. Not everyone is interested in player drama. At all. People are just built differently. What gets you going might not get me going or the next guy. what I like you probably will hate.
So online games have now expanded to people who normally would never play games and these people aren't interested in drama that they might believe is petty. I know I certainly think it is.
Heck, even my most "manly" men's men friends would never even consider playing an mmo like that because they consider it a waste of time and they'd rather apply themselves to something that matters.
So having a game where you are getting drama is just not going to appeal to people and they will go elsewhere.
That leaves the question, which is the larger demographic. People who want the old school style of game or people who want to be able to enjoy themselves without having to deal with players who still marvel at pee pee jokes.
Well, look at where the devs are going and that will give you your answer.
Now, don't get me wrong, a game where there is acual player vs player interaction can and should be great. I still think Lineage 2 is one of the best games around because of this. But in the end, when all is said and done, no one has the patience to deal with all the damaged people on the internet. At least not the regular, non-gamer players who are just looking to have a bit of fun.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Player drama adds fun, especially if you are on the sideline watching it. Someone getting whacked by the wandering sand giant, or seeing a "train" come by and wipe out a bunch of noobs while you scramble to get out of the way is generally fun for many. Going into a dungeon and seeing lots of player corpses on the ground alerts you to dangers or sloppy pulls and gets the adrenalin going as you secure your bearings. Just the same, running into a more powerful party that can save you from a bad pull your group made, brings relief and the feeling of gratitude as they save your butt.
This sort of stuff is fun. Now there will be times when it is your character getting whacked down, but that's part of the rush and part of what makes survival more meaningful.
"Instancing", however, is rather meaningless; it exists only to the five people in the instance and really means nothing outside. MMO's shine best as shared gaming experiences. Instanced housing is pretty fake and meaningless too.
In fact, "instanced gaming" = "offline gaming" in most regards; not exactly equal, but effectively the same thing.
All of the above created a living breathing world filled with player interaction and hilarious player drama.
You see, this is what you don't get. Not everyone is interested in player drama. At all. People are just built differently. What gets you going might not get me going or the next guy. what I like you probably will hate.
So online games have now expanded to people who normally would never play games and these people aren't interested in drama that they might believe is petty. I know I certainly think it is.
Heck, even my most "manly" men's men friends would never even consider playing an mmo like that because they consider it a waste of time and they'd rather apply themselves to something that matters.
So having a game where you are getting drama is just not going to appeal to people and they will go elsewhere.
That leaves the question, which is the larger demographic. People who want the old school style of game or people who want to be able to enjoy themselves without having to deal with players who still marvel at pee pee jokes.
Well, look at where the devs are going and that will give you your answer.
Now, don't get me wrong, a game where there is acual player vs player interaction can and should be great. I still think Lineage 2 is one of the best games around because of this. But in the end, when all is said and done, no one has the patience to deal with all the damaged people on the internet. At least not the regular, non-gamer players who are just looking to have a bit of fun.
I think the newer gamers never knew the old school gaming and only know the spoon-fed storyline gaming. So to measure, for example, WOW's success and determine that folks like the latter style of gaming by merit of subscription numbers is to ignore the first point.
I think a lot of veteran WOW players might really enjoy a gaming experience with more depth and sponteneity. It's time for them to kick off the training wheels, in my opinion.
I'm neither for nor against instancing; however, I do believe they are being overused. When it comes to things like story progression and controlled dungeon crawling, instancing works perfectly. Unfortunately, there are some things missing in the experience.
As was indicated earlier, there tends to be more to explore with world dungeons. Exploration used to be a major part of the experience. Lately, I feel like that has been missing from MMOs but that might simply be me.
Not all of these dungeons are farmed to the extent where you never see an enemy. Sometimes the people make a collective effort to control the dungeon, usually in pursuit of XP. There was a certain level of intensity and randomness that I have yet to see in the current MMOs. I remember playing AC and joining a group for XP in a dungeon I would soon be frequenting. Another player thought he was pretty strong and ran deep into the dungeon. I was minding my own business trying to fend off the enemy when I see him running back shouting "RUN!" I saw a mob of other players tailing him and further behind them was a fleet of enemies. I reflect on these incidents fondly.
This might not sound very exciting to some, but consider for a moment that instances are far too fixed (in my experience). When I run an instance, I know what to expect. I am never surprised. What makes matters worse is that there tends to be fewer dungeons in games that are all instanced. Thus, I learn the dungeons and any chance of being surprised is significantly reduced, if not completely eliminated.
Like I said, they both have their place. Neither should really take the place of the other, though, that is commonly the case.
This idea that instances =/= MMO is ludicrous. I can assure you, I did the MMO part of the MMORPG each and every time I went to do the RPG part. Before every raid and/or instance, I went to see and interact with MANY people. I would visit an Armorsmith to see if he had any new gear for me that I could now wear. I would visit with a Weaponsmith to see if he had a new head-splitter for me to wield. I would visit with an Alchemist to get stocked up on potions and other such items. I would visit an Enchanter to make sure my gear had all the proper or new bonuses applied. If any of the above needed resources to make the items or apply their buffs, I would visit with my favorite gatherers to see if they had any materials in stock.
Now that I have everything I need, thanks to all the many friends I made by needing those items, I am free to take my other friends into the instance with me without having to worry about whether or not 2+ hours in, some other random team is going to come through, kill us, the final boss we came for, take the loot and walk away laughing, leaving us to respawn and start the whole 2+ hour sequence again.
The only people who don't want instancing are, more often than not, people who have 4+ hours EVERY DAY to play. Well guess what homey, you are very much in the minority. I play MMOs to interact with others. To see and work with and do business with others. I DO NOT play MMOs so me and/or my team can spend hours on end waiting for our chance to kill some mob, or get rolled over and annihilated a dozen times by some asshat who has nothing better to do than make sure, that for whatever reason, I or my team does not kill this mob and/or complete this dungeon.
I like it when it makes sense, but I also don't like seeing it being overused. I don't mind how instances are used in WoW, for example, because they use their instances to tell a story with scripted event sequences that can only really work in an instance, and because the game is so loot-based that the camping of bosses would be horrendous without instances.
On the other hand, the use of instances is annoying in City of Heroes. Almost every quest takes place in its own little instance even though there is hardly any story and no scripted events, it's just a group of dudes to kill. Pirates of the Burning Sea is another example of too much instancing - nothing of consequences happens in the open world, every battle is an instance. There really is no feeling of a "open persistent world" when there is nothing at all going on in the open world, and all of the action happens in instances.
In general, I think instances should only be used in these circumstances: 1 -- Major loot bosses that would camped too much in the open world 2 -- Dungeons that have a story and scripted events 3 -- Objective-based PvP such as arenas or capture-the-flag so PvP rules and team balance can be enforced 4 -- Player housing, private guild halls, etc
Instancing is not necessarily bad. It depends on the reason for it:
1) Instancing as a crowd control mechanic is, in my opinion, a consequence of poor game design. Ideally there should be enough places to go at any point while advancing your character that overcrowded adventuring areas become a non-issue long term. The amount of players online on a server at any one time is so low in most MMOs that having to use instancing for the game to be playable simply means advancement in the game is too linear and/or there are too few/small starting/end-game areas. By all means, though, games that do instance most of the game world wouldn't be better if the instancing was removed.
2) Instancing to make sure all players get an equal chance to experience all the content, and get all the loot. This, I can understand, but I personally don't like it. The game's economy tends to suffer from all players having unlimited access to all the content, and it cripples the social experience by eliminating the need to interact with strangers. The argument about getting the most out of your game time is valid enough, but I make my own fun while playing a game. I don't need x virtual accomplishments per hour to avoid feeling I've wasted time.
3) Instancing to allow for scripted encounters that simply wouldn't be possible without a private instance. This, I don't mind so much. I'd prefer good AI and clever game design for fun challenges, but I have yet to see that in an MMO, and single player games have the same advantages as instances in MMOs anyway. I do prefer a game world with no instancing whatsoever if given a choice, but I have to admit that the almost cinematic experiences you can get in games like GW and DDO are attractive, even if the novelty of it fades after the first time.
I'm sure there are more reasons for instancing, but these are the three major ones that keep coming up. I can see why a lot of people like this kind of game design, but as one of the people who only has an hour or two to play at a time, I fail to see why so many people drag time restrictions into it. It's possible to come up with something to do that only takes a small amount of time in all games. In a non-instanced game, other players might determine whether you succeed at what you planned or not, but failure won't feel like a waste of time with the "right" mindset. I think a lot of people would have more fun if they played for the experience rather than for virtual achievements.
Originally posted by Josher Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means. Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Hey we all have our priorities and if some of us would rather spend more time gaming than sitting on the couch watching TV, whats so wrong with that? I work 9-10 hours a day, I've been married 18 years, have a teenage son and I'm a First Sergeant in the Army which means I spend a LOT of time babysitting 65 young soldiers. I think that qualifies me as a responsibble adult.
You guys are acting like you can't accomplish anything in 2 hours a night. 2 hours in WoW is about 3-4+ Heroic dungeons meaning 12-15 pieces of EPIC gear drops. I could clear pretty much any EQ dungeon in 2 hours so these grand exaggerations about people having to spend 10 hours a day playing are pretty pointless.
So let me get this straight. The carebears would rather play by themselves in their instance to get equipment that everyone else is easily able to obtain because they can't handle competition? What are you a bunch of communists?
You are the same type of people who if you had a flat tire would call your mommy instead of changing the tire your damn self.
If some big badies are obstructing you from your goal, you remove them. If you are not strong enough, you get more friends. If you and your friends are not strong enough you get more friends. Make alliances. This is starting to become more sandboxy! Then you go there and show these people who is boss. This is where the real fun is. This is when achieving your goal becomes that much more meaningful because you had to work for it. Yeah I said it! Working for something in a video is fun and worth 1000 times more than something easily obtained.
You build a much better community in the above case. It's an MMO. About time you guys start acting like you're playing one.
I think the newer gamers never knew the old school gaming and only know the spoon-fed storyline gaming. So to measure, for example, WOW's success and determine that folks like the latter style of gaming by merit of subscription numbers is to ignore the first point. I think a lot of veteran WOW players might really enjoy a gaming experience with more depth and sponteneity. It's time for them to kick off the training wheels, in my opinion.
You assume too much.
I started with UO beta (hated it .. all clicking on ore and pk-ed every 2 min), played EQ for a year (hated the horrible camping).
WOW >>> EQ in fun factor and gameplay. I wont go back to the horrible down-time/camping and i highly doubt many would like that.
So let me get this straight. The carebears would rather play by themselves in their instance to get equipment that everyone else is easily able to obtain because they can't handle competition? What are you a bunch of communists?
LOL ... what competition? You calll lining up with 50 people taking turns to kill a mob competition? That is hilarious. I pay money to PLAY A GAME, not taking a number and lining up. I can line up that at my local DMV.
You know, you can bitch & moan. No sane developer will go back to the bad old days.
Comments
No instancing is better, if people are camping spawns all day then there is something else wrong with the game.
Consider a game with no instances, then add the following:
more dungeons, especially smaller ones.
no static named mobs, but random drops so that people don't place value on one dungeon based on a certain powerful item.
enemies don't just stand around while you fight up to their point, if they see or hear a battle then they join in. this way you kind of have to go to a dungeon based on how big your group is, which should not be restricted to a small number.
mobs respawn based on dungeon size, making it always better to go to another dungeon than camp the one you just cleared.
This way you have to go through a dungeon and then move on to the next. Named mobs like a boss goblin could show up in any goblin dungeon randomly, meaning the bigger your group the bigger the dungeon you could clear, the more likely you'd find named mobs, and soloers could do small ones etc etc group size could be unrestricted maybe.. i dunno
but instancing is a cheap lazy temporary solution, so when you say you approve of instancing you're really saying that you approve of it as a workaround for other problems.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Do they? I sure don't.
EQ1 (Everquest), before the Shadows of Luclin expansion did EVERYTHING right. EVERYTHING was pretty much right about that game.
1. A world
2. A punishing death penalty
3. People stepping on each other's toes with disputed campsites, "trains", etc...
All of the above created a living breathing world filled with player interaction and hilarious player drama.
Now EQ was expanded too much, and the opening of a central zone (Plane of Knowledge) with transporters killed the world and doomed the overall experience. Not to mention, the graphics were allowed to stagnate.
But in it's day, EQ was a fantastic MMO experience and has yet to be replicated in a well-executed and polished form. And NO, it's not the "first kiss phenomenon"; it's the right mix of ingredients in game design.
Newer games with their "instancing", "phasing", "locked encounters" and such are really blunting the joy of gameplay and further isolating players and their impact upon one another. Those games might as well go offline and dive directly into single-player format, in my opinion.
MMO's need player interaction and depencency, just like a dance needs partners to waltz with, and an occasional toe to step on for added drama.
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I hate instancing. I love death penalties and having to fight with/work around and/or train mobs onto, through other parties. Its much more fun, and realistic and most of all gets the community to play together instead of funneling us away 5-10 persons at a time!
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
erm why?
Multiplayer is used to play among a circle of FRIENDS who know each other, people tend to play MMO as they can play in a guild and also meet new people
this is like saying, meh you should stay at home and drink instead of going to the pub and socialising, I go pub and socialise but sometimes I like to sit in teh corner with a group of friends and chat but I also like gazing around the pub adn seeing new people
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Norsefire-logo.png
Noone in his right mind would like instances in an MMO. Soloplay in a multiplayer game? Oh God Why?
I think there is a certain type of gamer who has substantial real-life responsibilities. I personally fall into this category.
What this means is you might have only one or two hours blocked out for gaming at a time, precious hours in your day that you look forward to before the wife calls you to bed. What an instance gives a player such as this, is a controlled enviornment with no surprises. For example, it sucks to spend those few gaming hours being spawned camped. Or having to fight over a mob. Or basically having your game experience negatively impacted by another player. In an instance, you determine who you play with. It's as simple as that.
Exactly. Not all of us are single 30 or 40 yr olds still living with their parents with no responsiblity or lives. We're not still students either who also have plenty of time to do whatever they want. I have but a few hrs at night after dinner and that has to be shared with my wife sometimes. I also can't stay up until 2am and expect to function the next day=) If I have 2 hrs to play a game, I don't want any of that time wasted waiting around or doing anything I don't want to do. And certainly I don't want it disrupted by A$$hats who can play 10 hrs a day and have no concept of what responsibility means.
Some of us actually grow up. And if anyone proclaims "use your time more wisely", they have no clue what working 8-9 hrs a day, owning a house, marriage and kids means=) If you say give up on MMOs, MMOs are made for me now=) hehe. You can go find another game to play.
Agree
Sounds like you all should merge to multiplayer games instead of MMOs. Massively multiplayer does suggest that you have to play amongst everyone else.
I'f I'm doing an instance with my friends, am I not playing with others? Did you NOT read the thread=) Its about time, the quality of the dungeon and those who enjoy ruining the time of others. Instancing allows for playing with your FRIENDS without that time being disrupted. AND instanced dungeons have superior design to open world dungeons. Why would that be a problem? Unless, YOU are the one who enjoys ruining other's playtime? Let me guess=)
I would't play a MMO if I was just playing alone. Single player games offer far superior experiences in every possible way.
I like instances but I also would like to see more open dungeons..
Not really sure why you can't see that there's good interaction and bad interaction, and that modern games minimize bad interactions in order to maximize the overall fun factor of the game.
MMOs need player interaction? Totally agree. I get plenty of player interaction from grouping, and from the occasional PVP.
The group and the opposing PVP group are your dance partners. Saying that the dance was better because a bunch of thugs crashed the party and got it shut down by the cops is retarded. The dance is better when you get to have fun with your partner all night long.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You see, this is what you don't get. Not everyone is interested in player drama. At all. People are just built differently. What gets you going might not get me going or the next guy. what I like you probably will hate.
So online games have now expanded to people who normally would never play games and these people aren't interested in drama that they might believe is petty. I know I certainly think it is.
Heck, even my most "manly" men's men friends would never even consider playing an mmo like that because they consider it a waste of time and they'd rather apply themselves to something that matters.
So having a game where you are getting drama is just not going to appeal to people and they will go elsewhere.
That leaves the question, which is the larger demographic. People who want the old school style of game or people who want to be able to enjoy themselves without having to deal with players who still marvel at pee pee jokes.
Well, look at where the devs are going and that will give you your answer.
Now, don't get me wrong, a game where there is acual player vs player interaction can and should be great. I still think Lineage 2 is one of the best games around because of this. But in the end, when all is said and done, no one has the patience to deal with all the damaged people on the internet. At least not the regular, non-gamer players who are just looking to have a bit of fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Player drama adds fun, especially if you are on the sideline watching it. Someone getting whacked by the wandering sand giant, or seeing a "train" come by and wipe out a bunch of noobs while you scramble to get out of the way is generally fun for many. Going into a dungeon and seeing lots of player corpses on the ground alerts you to dangers or sloppy pulls and gets the adrenalin going as you secure your bearings. Just the same, running into a more powerful party that can save you from a bad pull your group made, brings relief and the feeling of gratitude as they save your butt.
This sort of stuff is fun. Now there will be times when it is your character getting whacked down, but that's part of the rush and part of what makes survival more meaningful.
"Instancing", however, is rather meaningless; it exists only to the five people in the instance and really means nothing outside. MMO's shine best as shared gaming experiences. Instanced housing is pretty fake and meaningless too.
In fact, "instanced gaming" = "offline gaming" in most regards; not exactly equal, but effectively the same thing.
You see, this is what you don't get. Not everyone is interested in player drama. At all. People are just built differently. What gets you going might not get me going or the next guy. what I like you probably will hate.
So online games have now expanded to people who normally would never play games and these people aren't interested in drama that they might believe is petty. I know I certainly think it is.
Heck, even my most "manly" men's men friends would never even consider playing an mmo like that because they consider it a waste of time and they'd rather apply themselves to something that matters.
So having a game where you are getting drama is just not going to appeal to people and they will go elsewhere.
That leaves the question, which is the larger demographic. People who want the old school style of game or people who want to be able to enjoy themselves without having to deal with players who still marvel at pee pee jokes.
Well, look at where the devs are going and that will give you your answer.
Now, don't get me wrong, a game where there is acual player vs player interaction can and should be great. I still think Lineage 2 is one of the best games around because of this. But in the end, when all is said and done, no one has the patience to deal with all the damaged people on the internet. At least not the regular, non-gamer players who are just looking to have a bit of fun.
I think the newer gamers never knew the old school gaming and only know the spoon-fed storyline gaming. So to measure, for example, WOW's success and determine that folks like the latter style of gaming by merit of subscription numbers is to ignore the first point.
I think a lot of veteran WOW players might really enjoy a gaming experience with more depth and sponteneity. It's time for them to kick off the training wheels, in my opinion.
I'm neither for nor against instancing; however, I do believe they are being overused. When it comes to things like story progression and controlled dungeon crawling, instancing works perfectly. Unfortunately, there are some things missing in the experience.
As was indicated earlier, there tends to be more to explore with world dungeons. Exploration used to be a major part of the experience. Lately, I feel like that has been missing from MMOs but that might simply be me.
Not all of these dungeons are farmed to the extent where you never see an enemy. Sometimes the people make a collective effort to control the dungeon, usually in pursuit of XP. There was a certain level of intensity and randomness that I have yet to see in the current MMOs. I remember playing AC and joining a group for XP in a dungeon I would soon be frequenting. Another player thought he was pretty strong and ran deep into the dungeon. I was minding my own business trying to fend off the enemy when I see him running back shouting "RUN!" I saw a mob of other players tailing him and further behind them was a fleet of enemies. I reflect on these incidents fondly.
This might not sound very exciting to some, but consider for a moment that instances are far too fixed (in my experience). When I run an instance, I know what to expect. I am never surprised. What makes matters worse is that there tends to be fewer dungeons in games that are all instanced. Thus, I learn the dungeons and any chance of being surprised is significantly reduced, if not completely eliminated.
Like I said, they both have their place. Neither should really take the place of the other, though, that is commonly the case.
This idea that instances =/= MMO is ludicrous. I can assure you, I did the MMO part of the MMORPG each and every time I went to do the RPG part. Before every raid and/or instance, I went to see and interact with MANY people. I would visit an Armorsmith to see if he had any new gear for me that I could now wear. I would visit with a Weaponsmith to see if he had a new head-splitter for me to wield. I would visit with an Alchemist to get stocked up on potions and other such items. I would visit an Enchanter to make sure my gear had all the proper or new bonuses applied. If any of the above needed resources to make the items or apply their buffs, I would visit with my favorite gatherers to see if they had any materials in stock.
Now that I have everything I need, thanks to all the many friends I made by needing those items, I am free to take my other friends into the instance with me without having to worry about whether or not 2+ hours in, some other random team is going to come through, kill us, the final boss we came for, take the loot and walk away laughing, leaving us to respawn and start the whole 2+ hour sequence again.
The only people who don't want instancing are, more often than not, people who have 4+ hours EVERY DAY to play. Well guess what homey, you are very much in the minority. I play MMOs to interact with others. To see and work with and do business with others. I DO NOT play MMOs so me and/or my team can spend hours on end waiting for our chance to kill some mob, or get rolled over and annihilated a dozen times by some asshat who has nothing better to do than make sure, that for whatever reason, I or my team does not kill this mob and/or complete this dungeon.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
All reasons NOT to play.
EDIT: This is the perfect example of all that is currently wrong with the genre.
So why have PvE games? and PvP games?
I like it when it makes sense, but I also don't like seeing it being overused. I don't mind how instances are used in WoW, for example, because they use their instances to tell a story with scripted event sequences that can only really work in an instance, and because the game is so loot-based that the camping of bosses would be horrendous without instances.
On the other hand, the use of instances is annoying in City of Heroes. Almost every quest takes place in its own little instance even though there is hardly any story and no scripted events, it's just a group of dudes to kill. Pirates of the Burning Sea is another example of too much instancing - nothing of consequences happens in the open world, every battle is an instance. There really is no feeling of a "open persistent world" when there is nothing at all going on in the open world, and all of the action happens in instances.
In general, I think instances should only be used in these circumstances:
1 -- Major loot bosses that would camped too much in the open world
2 -- Dungeons that have a story and scripted events
3 -- Objective-based PvP such as arenas or capture-the-flag so PvP rules and team balance can be enforced
4 -- Player housing, private guild halls, etc
Instancing is not necessarily bad. It depends on the reason for it:
1) Instancing as a crowd control mechanic is, in my opinion, a consequence of poor game design. Ideally there should be enough places to go at any point while advancing your character that overcrowded adventuring areas become a non-issue long term. The amount of players online on a server at any one time is so low in most MMOs that having to use instancing for the game to be playable simply means advancement in the game is too linear and/or there are too few/small starting/end-game areas. By all means, though, games that do instance most of the game world wouldn't be better if the instancing was removed.
2) Instancing to make sure all players get an equal chance to experience all the content, and get all the loot. This, I can understand, but I personally don't like it. The game's economy tends to suffer from all players having unlimited access to all the content, and it cripples the social experience by eliminating the need to interact with strangers. The argument about getting the most out of your game time is valid enough, but I make my own fun while playing a game. I don't need x virtual accomplishments per hour to avoid feeling I've wasted time.
3) Instancing to allow for scripted encounters that simply wouldn't be possible without a private instance. This, I don't mind so much. I'd prefer good AI and clever game design for fun challenges, but I have yet to see that in an MMO, and single player games have the same advantages as instances in MMOs anyway. I do prefer a game world with no instancing whatsoever if given a choice, but I have to admit that the almost cinematic experiences you can get in games like GW and DDO are attractive, even if the novelty of it fades after the first time.
I'm sure there are more reasons for instancing, but these are the three major ones that keep coming up. I can see why a lot of people like this kind of game design, but as one of the people who only has an hour or two to play at a time, I fail to see why so many people drag time restrictions into it. It's possible to come up with something to do that only takes a small amount of time in all games. In a non-instanced game, other players might determine whether you succeed at what you planned or not, but failure won't feel like a waste of time with the "right" mindset. I think a lot of people would have more fun if they played for the experience rather than for virtual achievements.
Hey we all have our priorities and if some of us would rather spend more time gaming than sitting on the couch watching TV, whats so wrong with that? I work 9-10 hours a day, I've been married 18 years, have a teenage son and I'm a First Sergeant in the Army which means I spend a LOT of time babysitting 65 young soldiers. I think that qualifies me as a responsibble adult.
You guys are acting like you can't accomplish anything in 2 hours a night. 2 hours in WoW is about 3-4+ Heroic dungeons meaning 12-15 pieces of EPIC gear drops. I could clear pretty much any EQ dungeon in 2 hours so these grand exaggerations about people having to spend 10 hours a day playing are pretty pointless.
Instancing= Quality content, if you want something more than just grinding mobs...
Works good in PvE but not so good for PvP oriented games
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
So let me get this straight. The carebears would rather play by themselves in their instance to get equipment that everyone else is easily able to obtain because they can't handle competition? What are you a bunch of communists?
You are the same type of people who if you had a flat tire would call your mommy instead of changing the tire your damn self.
If some big badies are obstructing you from your goal, you remove them. If you are not strong enough, you get more friends. If you and your friends are not strong enough you get more friends. Make alliances. This is starting to become more sandboxy! Then you go there and show these people who is boss. This is where the real fun is. This is when achieving your goal becomes that much more meaningful because you had to work for it. Yeah I said it! Working for something in a video is fun and worth 1000 times more than something easily obtained.
You build a much better community in the above case. It's an MMO. About time you guys start acting like you're playing one.
You assume too much.
I started with UO beta (hated it .. all clicking on ore and pk-ed every 2 min), played EQ for a year (hated the horrible camping).
WOW >>> EQ in fun factor and gameplay. I wont go back to the horrible down-time/camping and i highly doubt many would like that.
Great post Zyonne. Respect.
Less rabid purists and more rational arguments.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
LOL ... what competition? You calll lining up with 50 people taking turns to kill a mob competition? That is hilarious. I pay money to PLAY A GAME, not taking a number and lining up. I can line up that at my local DMV.
You know, you can bitch & moan. No sane developer will go back to the bad old days.