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Group-lovers: the REAL freaks in the MMO world...?
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Not nearly as the retarded question you ask... Try broaden your horizon, maybe you get the clue.
I can give one hint though; to avoid persons with attitude like yours...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
That's only because if players are not encouraged to group with each other, they won't group.
Path of least resistance. Soloing is easier to get started because grouping takes effort to gather folks before starting. This is why grouping needs a bit of incentive to encourage people to put in the initial effort for greater rewards. This reward could be better loot, more xp for grouping or just seeing content that you couldn't otherwise see solo.
The problem is during leveling there is none of these incentives right now for grouping. There isn't even a solid grouping path of progression through most MMOs now like there is for solo. I for one don't hate soloing or only promote grouping. I like both. I have to say though half you guys here act as if you have some actually hate for people that enjoy grouping and I do not understand that. These are MMOs, I suspect in some fashion grouping will be encouraged be it end of the game or all the way through.
I personally miss the grouping leveling but I am by no means promoting removing soloing. There just needs some reason to group as well through the game even if grouping has it's own progression path through the game.
I see you are using the word "could" be better on loot when it comes rewarding group-play. Then I ask, why should group play be better rewarded when it comes to loot? I really fail to see why one playstyle should be better rewarded than the other.
As you already have understood, most people dont WANT to group, and still you want that playstyle to be better rewarded...?
No thanks, I want to eat my dinner by myself when I am at the restaurant as well, not with a bunch of strangers up in my food. Same goes for when I play MMO's. Same price, same result but different approach.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Put grouping aside for one moment, apart from graphics how do you see MMO’s as getting better since WoW?
Regardless of your playstyle, there has been no improvement. Unless you think the likes of adding wings to a MMO is a leap forward in MMO design. The problem with grouping is set within the larger problem of a stagnent industry that won’t try anything new or a remix of anything old.
We should have loads of playstyles by now, not just variations on grouping and soloing. What about pvp and crafting, they too have got into a rut.
The new fps/mmo mix games may offer something new, but don’t count those eggs before they have been laid. I see then as being their own genre, I don’t think they will be a new style of FPS or MMO game. Currently they are the only real sign of movement in the industry to try anything new and you must have noticed that they are just a rehash of two popular play styles.
Anyway, enough time on here, you soloers should be getting back to the grind.
Not nearly as the retarded question you ask... Try broaden your horizon, maybe you get the clue.
I can give one hint though; to avoid persons with attitude like yours...
He, he, he, ... was about to respond with similar words. :-)
Not only that, they are willing to pay every month for a simplified version of a single player game. Probably because they fail at single player games and this is their way to win the special olympics, competing among themselves. It's obvious this will become very popular nowadadys, and make developers very happy, just make a half assed game, with lots of fancy armor and weapons to show off and people will pay you every month. Win-win.
Another good point. Have tried and/or played virtually all MMO out there (even now defunct one) ... except of wow I enjoyed a lot only AoC and Lotro, where I'm returning from time to time. For short also War (but now also bg's have instant access from anywhere and player is returned back from where left). And there I guess list ends. And of course, very long ago, I enjoyed a lot pacman in DOS world, original Prince of Persia, .... :-) But can not imagine I would today. Wow is constantly improving world. And only reason to buy new computer will be to better enjoy Cataclysm.
But, despite because of my time schedule and other reasons I prefer solo ... i enjoy also playing in groups. And just hope new wow patch brings some improvement here.
Of course nothing can help against jerks in games ... but fortunately despite all said ... real jerks are pretty rare. I prefer try raid with nice people even when there is small possibility of success ... then to be sure 100% we will have enough dps, good tank and good healer .. if idiots between them. Happened to many times that some good (in strict sense of stats) tank or healer left with "this group sucks, ... arghs .. you have all worst equipment ever ... ", then we got good nice person with half stats and still completed raid or instance. More time of course involved, few corpse runs .. but fun with nice group.
About single player RPG they all s... Just to mention that horror of Oblivion or similar. The only one really worth to play for some time was Two worlds.
so that 15 bucks doesn't go to the constantly updating content or the servers that host tousands of people that you can trade and interact with?
so that 15 bucks doesn't go to the constantly updating content or the servers that host tousands of people that you can trade and interact with?
Actually it doesn't. All your $15 does is pay for server access. It does not pay for new content and no MMO is obligated to update.
Please delete. Browser bugged out.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
I think that's a misunderstanding of co-dependent.
"Codependency or Codependence describes a pattern of detrimental behavioral interactions within a dysfunctional relationship, most commonly a relationship with an alcohol or drug abuser.[1] In general, the codependent is understood to be a person who perpetuates the addiction or pathological condition of someone close to them in a way that hampers recovery. This can be done through direct control over the dependent, by making excuses for their dysfunctional behavior, or by blunting negative consequences. These actions are described as enabling."
When people play a game together they are helping each other to have fun. Being codependent is about helping someone destroy their lives.
There's a difference between people helping one another to do something constructive or fun, nad helping someone to do harm to themselves.
Look at the thread count on this topic, and the people arguing back and forth supporting games that encourage grouping, and games that encourage solo play.
Doesn't this alone tell you something?
Solo players are saying I like a game when it is like X. I don't see why EVERYONE can't be happy with game X, because I am happy with game X.
Group players are saying, yes, but I like a game when it's like Y. I understand EVERYONE won't be happy with game Y just because I am happy with game Y.
Does it matter WHY the solo players likes his solo game, or WHY the group player likes his game that encourages grouping?
Are you really going to argue someone into liking the sort of game you like? Are you going to PROVE to them they don't really like the sort of game they think they do?
I think this thread alone proves there needs to be TWO games.
One for the solo lovers, and one for the group lovers.
Yes, the solo players can still solo in the group game, and yes, the group players can sill group in the solo game. But this thread should show you there is no perfect balance for both types of players.
The arguments and reasons of WHY people like their games are immaterial. WHY do you like Pistacio ice cream? Are you going to argue someone into liking Butter Pecan instead?
You havent played many MMO's since you are able to ask this question. Well, I will try tell you a few of those things that makes my MMO gaming better. You want to exclude the most important one, which is forced grouping, fine. There are lots of other stuff.
My first MMO was Anarchy Online. I spent 2 days in the Backyard, before I understood it actually was only that... the backyard of teh real world. I completely fell in love with the genre with that game. In beginning there were lots of PvP, and if you had no clue about the game, you were toast. AO is a a clunky game, with poor game mechanics, all from how you share team missions, to how you travel. Non-customizable GUI as well. No BG's. Lots of zoning. No quests. Well, almost none.
Today we have much easier to use MMO's, they provide more comfort to me. It is easier to understand what to do, and where to do it. I see this as a huge pro. I am not at work when I play my MMO, I wanna have fun and fast gratification. Even back at my first MMO, I felt it quite frustrating getting up to end level, doing the PvP with the "big boys". Today, I feel I get some cool & fun stuff handed out to me even at lower levels. This wasnt so back in AO. I mean, not even customizable GUI is such a downer for me, I find it hard to play. It is actually years ago since I was able to play WoW without any addons. It has become to me, a very much needed accessorie.
Today, MMO's I play, have 4 choices of leveling; Group-grind, Group-questing, Solo-grind or Solo-questing. back in AO, there was only 1; Group-grind. Not much option there. I played tons of MMO's, not going to compare them, as there is only a few games I have been managed to stick to, and EQ was not one of them. Neither with DAOC either.
AO had fast travels through the grid system, but I like the modern versions better with flight paths or swift travel better. AC2 had an awful verion of this. Didnt like that game either.
Back then, no MMO I played had AH, today it is a must. Mail system? Hardly none, also a must today. One other thing I noticed after I tried a comeback in AO 1 year ago, was that I found the land suddenly so desolate... Couldnt remember it was SO few mobs around as it acually were...
World of Warcraft set the standard. I will never accept anything with any lower game mechanics than that. Plain & simple. The best game I have ever played. Was hooked at the first first login. Had to quit due to that; I got way to much into that game. Now I play LOTRO, enjoying my "grind"; got now an incredible number of 2 (TWO!!) characters at level 35. And I was there at its release.
So dont come here with your BS about us having a grindfest. Those who got to 65 first in LOTRO were definately not soloing... Guess what; they played in GROUPS! There goes that theory of yours... As with tons of the rest rambling all over this thread, implying this or that about how we play ourgames. In fact, those who takes the MMO's most casual are DEFINATELY soloers.
Well, you group-fanatics will probably not see this, as you blame either us soloers OR World of Warcraft for what you have messed up yourself. As usual.
See, whats quite interesting about this thread, it is clearly that you group-fanatics are quite well dependant upon us and our assets to the game, while we soloer just want to be left alone. Still you hurl one lame accusation after the other upon us. Why can't you just accept our presence and move on? We will not ever play by your tune. We have come to stay. The MMO world need AND wants our money. Why should even the game developers listen to people like you who is already poisoning the MMO world with your elitist-behavior and phat-lewt desires, when it clearly doesnt bring any good at all?
All you do is demanding more & more, a constant whine, still without coming up with one single suggestion how to "fix" your problem. Why cant you come with at least some mechaincs you think the MMO world lack? Blaming others for your own fault isnt actually helping your crusade. People just get tired of it. If you are so desperate about MMO's having grouped play, why not give us a suggestion what could be better, so grouping could be even tempting for us soloers...?
Sorry, better loot isnt good enough. Demanding better loot for being in a group, is selfish. You need give us something more.
Now please... One suggestion...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
so that 15 bucks doesn't go to the constantly updating content or the servers that host tousands of people that you can trade and interact with?
Actually it doesn't. All your $15 does is pay for server access. It does not pay for new content and no MMO is obligated to update.
Is this different wether you solo or group...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
we're not against it. read more.
From what I'm reading, most of the pro-soloers are crying foul because some content requires grouping to experience. if that's not it, then exactly are you even arguing about? That we're not acknowledging your inalienable right to pursue happiness by discriminating against you for wanting to solo?
Now you're fucking gettint it! yes, soloers are being discriminated by the group zealots, just because we refuse to indulge moronic strangers and dont play the game like they want us to. Have tons of group content, I dont care. But I will solo if I goddamn want to, and no one has the right to look down on me or tell me to go play a single player game.
Discrimination...? Seriously. That's the word being used to describe a difference in playstyle.
Gee... can we crank up the melodrama a little more? Maybe some references to some mass genocide or something would be suitable. I mean, if you're going to use hyperbole to make an argument seem more significant than it is, go hog-wild.
First of all: Players aren't the ones "discriminating" against soloers. The developers create the content, remember? And, if you seriously think soloers have been getting the shaft.... take a look at history and see how much more soloable many MMOs are now compared to about 5+ years ago.
From the fingers of people in this very thread (at least one person anyway): Any MMO has options to solo if you want to. Even FFXI, which is a very deliberately and unflinchingly group-centric MMO, has ways of soloing, has been proven for *years* to provide soloing, if you know the game well enough. And in the past couple years, SE has added even more content to make it easier.
Here's the situation as I've seen and experienced it over the past 5 or 6 years...
What I've seen many people - all "pro-soloers" - complaining about, more and more, over the past several years is that it's unfair to them if there's any content in the game that can't be solo'd. Up to and including raid bosses. They want *everything* soloable, or they're not happy.
When it first started, grouping was much more prevalent and the soloers only wanted *some* content to solo if they didn't feel like grouping, or didn't have the time. They understood the focus on grouping and such, and didn't want it lessened... just a bit more for them to do when they preferred to be alone. They got that.
After a time, they wanted more quests to be soloable so they could get through some storyline content without needing to wait for a group. They got that.
... fast forward a few years.
Now many (not all) soloers are bitching because they - heaven forbid - have to group up to take down a frigging raid boss.
The complaining hasn't decreased as more soloing was added.... it has *increased* because the more solo content the "pro-solo" side are given, the more they seem to feel entitled to have. The classic "give an inch, they want a mile" scenario.
There are MMOs that have been proven to be soloable all the way to level cap, with entire walk-throughs and guides to do so. But that's not enough is it? No no no... some soloers just can't be happy with getting at least 80% of the game solo and then having to group for maybe 20%. That 20% must go. All end game content must be soloable, too. All end-game gear must be acquired by soloing. And those who don't agree are "discriminating against soloers". Laughable. Seriously laughable.
I have to give props to one particular poster in this thread for basically stating everything as a pro-soloer that many others have made very obvious, but denied or tried to spin for years now. That is, the want of faster gratification, easier leveling, more soloable gameplay - the faster and easier the better. They're the only person I've seen among the "pro-solo" side who is actually honest about what they want in a MMO.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
So the main conflict is that soloers want access to same loot as groupers, while the groupers want better loot than the soloers.
This catering is changing, with MMO's giving better & better gear to the soloers. Understandably, as they want our money. If people feel inferior for one or the other reason, they usually leave. Not good for game, which in turn is less good for those group-fanatics ingame...
In the non-pvp MMO's I care less about this balance, as gear means virtually nothing to me. It is quite different in harcore PvP MMO's like World of Warcraft. In such games I expect little or no different in pvp gear whtether you solo or group. One of the reasons why I left WoW actually; cause it is too hard to get gear the solo way for pvp. If I had same options as those who group, I would prolly still be in WoW...
Now I am having a good time in LoTRO... Caring none about the gear... well at least for now, since my highest toon is only 35...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Does it matter if it's selfish or not? Is it important to you that everyone like to play the sort of game you like?
Would it be terrible of other people played games you dont' like to play?
Now you are getting to the point...
MMO's have been catering group-players for 10 years, without soloers whining at all. Now this is changing, rapidly. Still we are quite silent compared to the group-fanatics. Now you whine about we soloers getting access to almost same gear as you do. Go figure why...
Still, no suggestion other than that you want your selfish desires catered (loot). Is that really all you can come up with? You have at least given us enough info to understand why you are whining so much about this. And you wonder why the MMO world is becoming more solo friendly... Well, I am happy it is changing. So we dont have to be around selfish & egocentric people like in the "good old days". To me, it is quite nice that group-fanatics are playing games I dont like. The fewer selfish idiots around in my game, the better gaming experience.
It seems we soloers got the modern MMO's, which we prefer, while group-fanatics got the old MMO's where you state theres so much better. Happy me, happy you. Right?
Why are you still arguing about why I like a game?
You're trying to tell me why I have fun in a game.
How could you do that, and why would you?
I understand, you want a game where you can solo everything. Why would I mind that you want that sort of game, or that it makes you happy?
I certainly dont' mind if you want to play a solo MMORPG. I wouldn't play it, but I don't eat brussel sprouts either. doesn't bother me if someone else likes them.
Why are you so bothered that I don't like your solo game and want to play something different?
I am not. You are seeing things that doesnt exist. You are rambling here, again. Stop asking me these questions, like I could care about what you like or not. Your preferances mean nothing to me. Absolutely nothing.
Now why wont ANY of you group-fanatics come up with one suggestion that MMO's genre so desperately are in need of...?
What you all must understand is that the MMO need be solo friendly, not solo-hostile. This is a proven "fact" for any MMO if it is to have at least somewhat success. Soloers didnt ask for this, the MMO developers themselves understood this. Now they are offering it to us. Which you should be quite thankful for. Or else your games would be even more desolate than they are today.
Whether you like or not, an MMO would be perfectly fine without any forced-grouping or having no content at all which requires grouping, while the opposite (group content exclusively) would just not work.
Chew on that.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
you're being pretty selfish saying your community is better than another's
It's not my community it was the EverQuest community as a whole. I just haven't found anything other one since post wow. I was also aware that Doac and UO had wonderful communities as well.
Yes they are because their choice doesn't require the consent of others. It's like people who want to be on a baseball team complaining that the people at batting cages aren't allowing them to be on a team. Their choice is inherently limited by their ability to find others who share their goal. Making a choice and being able to necessarily exercise that choice are two entirely different things.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Eh...? Becuase you say so, it has to be like that...?? Whats so "obvious" about your statement? Tell me, I am quite curious about this...
Because they say so, obviously that makes it true, right? That seems to be the basic debate style of many pro-groupers, either do things their way because it's obviously the only way things ought to be done or pick up your marbles and go home.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Same gear different efforts, not same efforts! Again, do not blame soloers for crap game mechanics. Also, do not try to change focus; none of us are talking about being able to solo same stuff as a group can take down. You keep your raids for yoursel, preferably in another thread.
What is so worrying about soloers having same gear as groupers anyway? I can't see the big deal there. You are acting self righteous & quite selfish when it comes to gear. Which is ridicolous.
I do though, expect my playstyle be equally rewarding as someone who favor to play in a group, which is quite opposite to you group-fanatics who demands your playstyle being favored and better rewarded.
Your group fanatics are more than welcome in my MMO's, but it really doesnt seem we would have any spot in "your" MMO's if you were to choose. Thankfully, game developers have started to cater us soloers as well, since we are a mighty force, both ingame and when it comes to money. For who do we really bother anyway, on our solo trips...? Hardly none, and especially not any group-fanatics...
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
MMO's are NOT something which you can "socialize" in. If you think that, you seriously need get out of the door and visit the real world outside. It is just as lame as rushing home from work just to hang out with your friends in Facebook...
So you have nothing better to say and you focus on weak attacks against me, how typical. I don't need you to tell me that it is only a game, I knew that way before you telling me. If you don't want to see that MMO's main point is social interaction within a virtual environment, you are blind.
Actually the point of an MMORPG is the social interaction with other players in a virtual world environment, same as Pen and Paper RPGs were.
Exactly.
But as far as grouping being needed for social interaction, its a falsehood. Grouping is a side effect of the social aspect of the game, not the catalyst for it as many people here want everyone to believe.
Of course, I knew that already, you are already interacting with other by talking, it's not required to group all the time to interact with others. But there has to be content that is played through groups, otherwise these games would just be single-player ones with a chat box if all could be soloed.
The most fun I get in these games is when I am working together with other people to conquer a challenge that otherwise is impossible to do alone. And no, I don't need the "fat loot" factor to play that content, the reward for me is the fun I get while playing.
The people who try to use the 'grouping is the social aspect of an MMO' line like to ignore the fact that people who solo still tend to join guilds, chat with other like minded people and even group with them on occassion.
Of course you can do that if you like, I'm not trying to excluding people that like to solo from playing.
The only reason these people are adament about games being group centric is because they dont want to have to try to make friends through true social skills (such as actually striking up a conversation with some random person, out of fear of possible rejection), but would rather have the social interactions forced, causing a somewhat co-dependant system where they are known more for being 'good' within their class rather than based on the actual person behind the character.
Not the problem with me, I'm a sociable person. I don't want the MMO's to be "group-centric", there can be content for everyone to enjoy, there's no need to exclude anyone from playing, that's selfish and a way of putting a "label" on people, which leads to exclusion and/or confrontation.