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Group-lovers: the REAL freaks in the MMO world...?
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If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.
Developers figured out how to scale content to group size a long time ago. Plus, players can set their own difficulty level in a thousand different ways. Pull more mobs, pull over level mobs. "The game isn't challenging enough" argument doesn't hold water. Wear lower level armor, use lower level weapons. You can set your own difficulty level.
The issue at the heart of the matter is bragging rights and e-peens. If solo players, i.e. anybody, can finish all the content without having to group then there won't be content that's so hard that only players in a huge guild will be able to finish it and brag about it. What's the point in bragging that your guild downed Thargobtorcronbad if a solo player can scale the instance or recruit npc group members and do it too.
Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?
That's why they play the game. It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life. E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess. A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip. Game developers know that there are a lot ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player. If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.
And this brings up a common problem with most MMO's these days, raids are becoming easier to cater for the mass market. I for one believe most group/raid content should have better rewards than solo play, but I also think that group/raid content in a majority of games should be considerably more difficult than they are currently.
Fair enough about that instances should be more challenging. Do also take into consideration then that MMOs these days are either balancing towards PvP or PvE. Take WoW for example, it balances classes around the PvP, mainly arenas. Still you get "some" of the best gear from raiding, even for PvP. At least, it was so back when I used to play. I find that a bit hard to accept.
I now play LOTRO, a PvE game, with some awful PvmP mechanic. Here its all about PvE gear, favoring grouped playstyle. Now, with the new feature of 'Skirmishes', where you can get NPC's to fight for you, doing instancves and such, we suddenly add a new option for people; Either do these instances alone, or do them with a group. Afaik it takes longer time to grind gear with Skirmishes the solo way, but that is okay with me. The game mechanic is offering me that, which I am quite happy for. Well, atm, I dont care (much) about gear in LOTRO, since I am a PvP'er. Still, very nice option for those who want it that way. (I think thats the way Skirmishes work in LOTRO?)
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.
Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?
That's why they play the game. It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life. E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess. A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip. Game developers know that there are a lot ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player. If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.
So now LOTRO will be blamed for killing the ego-trippers, just like WoW was blamed for killing the 'forced-grouping' genre of MMO...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
If being "fun" isn't enough of a reason, then what is the point?
When all/most of the content is geared and balanced towards being soloable, it tends to become trivial when faced by a group. Things that have no challenge aren't fun -- for normal people anyways.
Whats the point of bragging in the first place...?
That's why they play the game. It gives them a sense of importance and prowess that they don't get from real life. E-peen def. v. used to describe the act of showing off or stroking one's own ego, esp. with regard to computer game prowess. A lot of players don't play for fun, they play for the ego trip. Game developers know that there are a lot ego driven gamers and most design their games with content like raids and rare powerful loot that the majority of the gaming population will never achieve so that these ego driven players will get that feeling of superiority over the average player. If a solo player can recruit npcs or scale an instance to finish this content then that ego driven player won't be able to achieve that feeling of superiority.
So now LOTRO will be blamed for killing the ego-trippers, just like WoW was blamed for killing the 'forced-grouping' genre of MMO...?
I haven't played lotro's end-game enough to know exactly what's going on there. Am I right that solo players are now able to get raid gear through skirmishes? If so, then yeah. Lotro is ruining the game for those poor selfish bastards.
Yes, Skirmishes offers end game content where you get end game gear for soloers... By letting players control NPC's...
Ouch... bad bad LOTRO!!
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol. I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs. Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.
So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?
No the issue is the people playing a lot of these games want things RIGHT now. They have been handed everything to them since they were conceived and having to "work" for something is too hard for them to fathom. Along with that they do not want to work with others as all they care about is themselves (see facebook, there is a really good article on this phenomenom). Everyone wants the best but wants it easy.
Back in the day when I played EQ from 1999-2004 we worked for stuff. I had no issue with camping a froglok with a group for 6 hours a day until I got my FBSS for instance. The reward for the time spent was enough not to mention the relationships that were created with the people I was grouped with. To this day I still have friends that I met in EQ grinding out levels and gear. Now its just fly through this dungeon and get l33t epix so you faceroll some noobs. Its as if the community went from being a community to a bunch of "I"s and it has destroyed what a MMO used to be. It used to be about creating relationships with others while playing a game..now its about loot and everyone else can go to hell as all that matters is "MY" loot. Notice the change in the dynamics.
MMOs today cater to that type of person and not to the people who played to create relationships and have fun while doing it. Today its much better to just go to the bar and shoot pool or join a social club as the social aspect of MMOs was all but destroyed by WoW and its loot centric soloing mentality. Another place this is noticed is how people choose arena partners and will dump someone regardless of how well they know them for some random guy because his loot is better... it makes me sick.
You are more fanatic about solo play than I am about group play.
You win the solo gamers cheerleading award.
Some raid gear is obtainable through skirmishing, but not all of it. Lotro since Mines of Moria has gated raiding, something which I am opposed to although I am a raiding fan.
I do find it amusing when people who joined these forums after I did tell me I have not played many MMO’s. I played AO myself, a fine game, but one that came out before WoW if you remember. I am not saying there have been no improvements since WoW, UI’s and graphics have improved, but gameplay has hardly changed at all. The Lotro skirmishes may count as an improvement but its way too early yet to see them in context of the whole game.
One final point, if you played AO you will remember the user defined commands that were available in the text box. Want to make a list of items with links for people to click on, no problem. I used to run a library of nanos for my guild so people could see what we had. Show me a game where the guilds can have their own inventory which anyone in the guild can see and link to and add to? We have lost so much for glossy graphics it is criminal.
i can't play a game these days that doesn't take advantage of modern technology
shows a serious lack of skill by the devs
I am a sexy & fabolous girl which is fanatic about queer group activities.
I win the solo gamers cheerleading award.
Fixed.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Lol.
That would mean I'm a lesbian.
Lol you are apparenlty the insecure person who has to insult other people for wanting to actually play with others in a MULTIPLAYER game lol. I love these kids that have the epeen mentality that is so prevalent with todays MMOs. Back in the day MMO gaming was better..not because of the games..but because this type of attitude was so less prevalent.
So, the MMO's from the 'good old days' are better than those on marked today? All you need is better gfx in same old game & problem is fixed...?
No the issue is the people playing a lot of these games want things RIGHT now. They have been handed everything to them since they were conceived and having to "work" for something is too hard for them to fathom. Along with that they do not want to work with others as all they care about is themselves (see facebook, there is a really good article on this phenomenom). Everyone wants the best but wants it easy.
Back in the day when I played EQ from 1999-2004 we worked for stuff. I had no issue with camping a froglok with a group for 6 hours a day until I got my FBSS for instance. The reward for the time spent was enough not to mention the relationships that were created with the people I was grouped with. To this day I still have friends that I met in EQ grinding out levels and gear. Now its just fly through this dungeon and get l33t epix so you faceroll some noobs. Its as if the community went from being a community to a bunch of "I"s and it has destroyed what a MMO used to be. It used to be about creating relationships with others while playing a game..now its about loot and everyone else can go to hell as all that matters is "MY" loot. Notice the change in the dynamics.
MMOs today cater to that type of person and not to the people who played to create relationships and have fun while doing it. Today its much better to just go to the bar and shoot pool or join a social club as the social aspect of MMOs was all but destroyed by WoW and its loot centric soloing mentality. Another place this is noticed is how people choose arena partners and will dump someone regardless of how well they know them for some random guy because his loot is better... it makes me sick.
Well, back in those days, it was so embarassing to play MMO's that you certainly did'nt tell anyone you did. Especially not at school, nor to the girls you were flirting with at the clubs. Back then, it barely appealed to the nerds. Now with all the changes, MMO's appeals to the masses, you can suddenly talk about it. It has been socially accepted. For some obvious reasons. One is that it has faster gratification. You can be more casual about MMO's than ever before, and still have some enjoyment.
People are after the loot, no doubt about it. But then again, blaming soloers for this is plain wrong and a shot in the blind. Most soloers doesnt care much about the loot, that is why we solo. Solo isnt any good way to get phat loot, whatsoever MMO you choose.
What makes you so different from those you were playing with then? You were just as happy for the loot as anyone else. You just craved it so damn much that you would spend countless of meaningless hrs waiting for even a spot in a team. Which is beyond imagination why for most people on this earth, especially back in 1999. MMO's have changed to the better, no doubt about it since MMO's are more healthy than ever before. You really think MMO's would have been where it is today if it werent that it is offering more to the casual player than it used to do?
Well, you might disagree, but then, your view is hopelessly outnumbered. Do not expect nor hope that would change either. Sorry if I am spoiling that.
@ Ihmotepp:
I am just as entitled as you to state that my playstyle should be better rewarded than your playstyle, especially since we all should by now understand that it requires more skill. I am entitled to have this meaning, just as much as you do when it comes to that brainless raiding needs skills. You group fanatics taught me that the more skill that one have to put into the toon, the better rewards should be handed out. Everything else would make no sense. And waah waaah waah; everything else would be unfair. Waaah waaah waaah.
Someone please call the whaaaaambulance, I think Ihmotepp is about to suffocate. Is it a cookie which is stuck in your throat...? If it is, why dont you flush it down with all that whine...? /sarcasm off
/bearhug
Edit: I am not after picking a fight, but when you try make fun of me, I feel that I am at least a little bit entitled to give back, if not worse, but maybe at same level. Too bad my english skills sucks though....
Now can we please try be civil? I am a human being too, even though I am a soloer.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
If changing for the better means instant gratification then I would agree. MMOs today give instant gratification... hell most of those MMO players should just play single player games... Such as Dragon Age as you get your loot...you do not talk to anyone other than to coerce them into getting you loot so that aspect is not relevant as you can just force the NPC to help you out. I will never understand why anyone would play a MMO that is a soloer it makes no sense and defies the logic of the entire concept of a MMO.
My opinion is that people should play games they think are fun, and not play games they think are not fun.
I think games that encourage grouping are fun.
I don't mind if you think games that encourage solo play are fun.
The existence or non-existence of any "skill" is completely irrelevant. Either you're having fun, or you are not. I don't see why people having fun playing a game you don't like upsets you so much. It certainly doesn't upset me when you play solo games i don't like.
/bearhug
your English skills are fine. But I'm not convinced you are human. Perhaps something happened to you as a child.
Speaking of Dragon Age since you bought it up...would it be acceptable if, in order to get the Juggernaut Armor set you had wander around the forest, clicking on those graves, killing min-bosses over and over and over again for 100 hrs hoping that a piece would drop? How many would bother trying? Just curious? I sure as hell have better uses for my time. I do the quest, examine the four graves, kill the ghost demon thing that spawns each timeto get a new piece. Is that a PROBLEM that the gear drops on the first try, because I sure as heck don't see why it shouldn't. But in MMOs, its OK to redo the same damn thing 100s of times...huh? I just don't find that fun anymore.
By the way, AWESOME game=) Highly more enjoyable than any MMO since vanilla WOW 2004...oh and it wasn't my first MMO in case you're wondering;)
I think some people who love grouping forget how long some other people have been playing MMOs.
I've been playing since before UO and I've grouped for content many more times then I could ever count. I have been part of big guild and small guilds and I have gone solo.
After a long time the experiences build up. You realize how much a group is going to slow you down. You know that a publicly made group is going to have people who don't work well in a team or who will just get the group killed. You know the hassles that can come with guilds and the silly rules they try to enforce.
So there is a lot of time you just want to go out and explore the world on your own. It doesn't mean you never want to group again but it also means you don't want to have to group the majority of the time. The thought of having to log in at specified times to do group only raids to get the best loot over and over again makes me want to stab myself in the face. But playing along solo and finding a tough quest and asking if anyone wants to group up for a short span of time to get through it can be very fun sometimes.
If I was just starting in MMOs now then I would think the concept was amazing and want to join large guilds and make huge groups to tear through the world and feel powerful. But I've been there and done that over and over and over again. I want to have fun without the hassle, and most of the time that means going solo. You don't have to keep hearing "Hold on AFK, need a drink", "Kid needs something hold on." No need to have a guy lag out and log back in 5 minutes later and now you have to wait for him to get back. There is sooo much hassle and annoyance that comes in groups that it makes it hard to deal with all the time.
I think that's why back years ago when I played WoW I spent most of my time in battlegrounds. There was a group dynamic of having one side help another but you didn't all have to move around at the same time. There weren't AFKs because people knew they were joining a battleground and aprox how long it would take. It was challenging as it was players vs players and at the same time it allowed you to make a difference for your side with your skill and character. This is much different then forming up a bunch of people to run through a quest, and it is a lot more fun.
Slow you down from what? Some meaningless peice of gear? That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking. Making large groups ??? Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging. Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point. In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked. Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!! Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself.
Granted as you said PUGS suck..ya but that is not what you should be doing anyway as the purpose of online games is to play with others and with that said you build relationships with hundreds of people. You then play with those people you trust and have relationships with but in todays game people are too worried about acquiring 10k gold to buy some stupid mount or running through some newb zone for some silly ass acheivement to play the game with others. The fast leveling also makes this a problem as the focus is entirely on raiding or this infamous end game pvp which is just another way to get gear and flash your epeen. (planetside fixed that issue being a gear less game ftw)
Games need to be challenging again but people are scared to die! Omg 45g in repairs now I have to go kill 50 mobs or pick 100 flowers. Challenging games with group focus are entertaining...easy mode games that succumb to the lazy unmotivated kids that are all around these days.
I play games I find fun. I dont think grouping which requires less skill, should be rewarded with better loot. It is ruining the MMO. It has to come to an end. Oh, let me add; it IS going to happen... Now cry some more.
I am not bothered at all with people having fun in games they dont like. Why should I? Quite unlike group-fanatics. And you. Heh, speaking of wich; you group-fanatics are quite obssessed about that particular part... Sorry, we soloers aint like you. Not a bit. I have said it over and over again, and still, the only thing you are able to belch up is this ever-repeating nonsense that I am not wanting the group mechanic in the MMO world. Will it ever stop...?
Now, you are also saying that "The existence or non-existence of any "skill" is completely irrelevant", Well, why didnt you point it out to your fellow group fanatics at first...? Why tell ME that?? It wasnt me who brought up that arguement. I just responded my view how I see that Rading requires (barely) no skills at all. Every asshat outthere can do it, even the LOL-mouseclickers.
Okay, so it is not about skill then. Lets say we leave that part alone for a short while when it comes to loot & rewards. Now lets look at the "challenge" part; Why should my equally challenging effort be worse rewarded than looters then? Makes no sense. What is left then, is to argue for that Groupers should have better rewards; becuse it "just have to be so"...? Yeah right... Sorry to say, after I started this thread, I have lesser and lesser sympathy for group-fanatics. These threads are probably doing wonders for us soloers as well. The more crap & lame accusations, topped with twisted quotes that shows up as real lies, the more obvious it becomes you need stay back in the "good old days" and let us run the show. Who cares actually; you arent enjoying the new games anyway. I for sure, aint missing the elitists lame behavior back from the AO days.
Your whole problem seem to be that you are in desperate need to blame someone for the MMO changing into more solo friendly, and thus, it falls "natural" for you accusing them who does enjoys this playstyle. Even though soloers are the least nuiscanse in the MMO world. Why else are you coming here, showing pics of yourself and going personal, topping it with views of accusations which only exists in your imaginations?
Why dont you admit it, once and for all, you hate soloers; Your arguements are barely more than a fart in a hurricane, thus going personal in hope of bringing this thread to an end would be more suited for you.
And no, I am not human. I am a very special variant called Super-Human. In Norway we are called "Norlænning".
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
MMORPGs were born out of socializing, grouping is the largest part of that.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Slow you down from what?
You obviously have too much time to play MMO's and too little responisibilites to the real world
Some meaningless peice of gear? That is the whole problem too many people are worried about the infamous end or whatever it is that you are seeking. Making large groups ??? Feel powerful??? That is not why I want to play games I want to socially interact with people while doing something challenging. Soloing in MMOs is the opposite of challenging not to mention you may as well play a console game at that point. In L2 soloing was cake as the only way you were going to die is if you got ganked.
Soloing in WoW is the easiest thing in the world as you can solo your way to 80 without ever getting below 50% health!!!
WoW isnt anything BUT level 80, so your arguement here is pointless.
Soloing BGs is easy as well hell back in the day it was advantageous to just drop the group and play by yourself.
Can we start a guild? You sound so über. We would prolly faceroll whatsoever instance and BG, just the 2 of us.
Granted as you said PUGS suck..ya but that is not what you should be doing anyway as the purpose of online games is to play with others and with that said you build relationships with hundreds of people. You then play with those people you trust and have relationships with but in todays game people are too worried about acquiring 10k gold to buy some stupid mount or running through some newb zone for some silly ass acheivement to play the game with others. The fast leveling also makes this a problem as the focus is entirely on raiding or this infamous end game pvp which is just another way to get gear and flash your epeen. (planetside fixed that issue being a gear less game ftw)
Games need to be challenging again but people are scared to die! Omg 45g in repairs now I have to go kill 50 mobs or pick 100 flowers. Challenging games with group focus are entertaining...easy mode games that succumb to the lazy unmotivated kids that are all around these days.
Are you playing WoW? If you are having all these problems with WoW, why do you expose yourself for all this pain by playing that game...?
Edit:
Go play Mafia Wars on Facebook with your friends if its only the "socializing" you are after.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Were they? I kinda thought the evolution of MMOs was more paper and pencil dungeons and dragons, which is solo friendly and evolved from reading fantasy literature. That grew with technology into single-player text computer rpgs and then console rpgs. Which grew with the internet into online multi-user dungeons or MUDs. Which became graphical muds like everquest. And then came WoW.
So this all came from reading and writing fantasy literature. Which is pretty solo friendly. The evolution of the MMO has only recently become socially driven.
And the "Guild" part is second to grouping...?
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Were they? I kinda thought the evolution of MMOs was more paper and pencil dungeons and dragons, which is solo friendly and evolved from reading fantasy literature. That grew with technology into single-player text computer rpgs and then console rpgs. Which grew with the internet into online multi-user dungeons or MUDs. Which became graphical muds like everquest. And then came WoW.
So this all came from reading and writing fantasy literature. Which is pretty solo friendly. The evolution of the MMO has only recently become socially driven.
Oh please, that´s why there were SP Rpg´s. Yes MUD´s came then...nice times, But you kinda forget the +10 years between the muds and WoW. Before MMO`s where Theme Park experiences. There is a difference between solo friendly and a shity Theme Park game...none has managed to close this gape in my opinion.
Also D&D is a bad example..while almost every mmo totaly copies talents and the like...they never achive the implementation, then they patch around years after.
This is not an evolution for MMO´s, this is exactly the opposite.
Edit: Besides that, MMO´s are called for that a reason, and games today don´t have the MMO part anymore. They are all dungeon crawlers. the best example is the most successful one.
"i'm a leaf on the wind watch how i soar"
MMOs have evolved beyond that, grouping is no longer the interest of the majority of players. Try again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
MMOs have evolved beyond that, grouping is no longer the interest of the majority of players. Try again.
What the hell evolved? That from an Eve player? Just because MMO´s have turned mass market doesn´t mean the real mmo players don´t care. Try you again. To hell with all that theme park shit. If you want to swim with the mindless easy to please masses thats your thing. Don´t tell the real mmo players what they should like.
"i'm a leaf on the wind watch how i soar"