When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
EVE once more is a good exception. But the fact remains, most people can't handle full loot, it's normal and it's human nature. You just risk what you can easily replace in one day or less. There is no hardcore. I agree it's more interesting, but the players screaming in the forums for cheap gear make me laugh.
THE TRUTH (in capital letters no less) requires solid evidence to back it up. You have provided none. Therefore this thread is full of fail and can result in nothing more than people posting their opinions based on their own limited experience and often narrow minded viewpoints.
Full loot is fine, with rules. Thats why Eve is still growing. Sure you can lose it all in a hauller. But its better than 99% of the other games that have all tryed and failed with it.
but then i guess i'd be alone, since that kind of game wouldnt allow for griefing, and full loot pvpers only look for grief games where they fight if odds are heavily stacked for them.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
Ultimately a full-loot PVP game is unworkable. It means that all gameplay is restricted to a small number of highly equipped players who can prevent all newcomers from progressing. Such a game is not financially sustainable.
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
EVE's sustainability stems from the fact that there is a region of the game, that for the most part, the average player is free from attack from other players. Yes it is full loot, but to attack a player in high-sec means you WILL die also. Yes, you do have a small handfull of asshats who do things like can-flipping and suicide gate camps. But, being that there is a rather large safe zone, EVE remains financially viable. Would it be anywhere near as viable or successful, if Empire (high-sec) space didn't exist? It's not possible to say. Just look at the statistics for EVE players and their spread. If I remember correctly, greater than half of all EVE players NEVER leave high-sec. And a large portion of the other half, only venture out into low/null-sec rarely. It is but a small portion of the player base that lives, works and plays out in the area which could be called full-loot full-time.
Full loot FFA PvP is not what drives people to hate this system.
It's the wild wild west-world. Someone shows up, kills you, takes all your stuff and is kind of officially declared the winning guy by the system.
Like in some warcamp in the kongo, or some mafia-driven town in the caucasus, or any other lawless place on the planet.
I'd be all in favor for a FFA PvP game, if it was in a world where you suffer the consequences for killing innocents. So if you gank that guy over there for fun; you might end up in jail for the next 50 years "for fun". So if you wanna keep doing this "serial-killer-playstyle" you'll have to live with being on the bottom end of society.
The problem is the warlord/mafia/syndicate worlds that favor FFA full loot PvP.
EVE isn't full loot. You can never take an enemy's ship and cargo intact. The game also has clones and insurance. It can be full loss if you're stupid but it's never been full loot.
Now you are just arguing semantics to be arguing. Can you take whatever is left on the corpse when they die? Yes. You can fully loot anything that is left after destruction. Full Loot.
Ultimately a full-loot PVP game is unworkable. It means that all gameplay is restricted to a small number of highly equipped players who can prevent all newcomers from progressing. Such a game is not financially sustainable.
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
EVE's sustainability stems from the fact that there is a region of the game, that for the most part, the average player is free from attack from other players. Yes it is full loot, but to attack a player in high-sec means you WILL die also. Yes, you do have a small handfull of asshats who do things like can-flipping and suicide gate camps. But, being that there is a rather large safe zone, EVE remains financially viable. Would it be anywhere near as viable or successful, if Empire (high-sec) space didn't exist? It's not possible to say. Just look at the statistics for EVE players and their spread. If I remember correctly, greater than half of all EVE players NEVER leave high-sec. And a large portion of the other half, only venture out into low/null-sec rarely. It is but a small portion of the player base that lives, works and plays out in the area which could be called full-loot full-time.
So, you agree that PatchDay is correct, and such a game IS financially sustainable. Now, if you want to add conditionals to prove him wrong, that's another issue entirely, but the fact remains that all three of trophic's statements are incorrect.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Full loot FFA PvP is not what drives people to hate this system.
That's funny because, that is the exact reason several people gave previously in this thread. They don't like it, or hate it, because someone can take everything from them after killing them, even if they didn't want to engage in a PVP fight at that time.
I liked Planetside. Full Loot. Balanced PVP (due to being an FPS), you get your gear back upon spawn, but players can take your empire specific weapons and such. (which they lose upon death)
Full loot FFA PvP is not what drives people to hate this system.
That's funny because, that is the exact reason several people gave previously in this thread. They don't like it, or hate it, because someone can take everything from them after killing them, even if they didn't want to engage in a PVP fight at that time.
Yes, but that only happens because the PvP guy is not punished at all most of the time. He gets a red flag and a pat on the back.
What if the guy was tagged 'murderer' for the rest of his playtime, every guard in the game would try to kill him, he would not be able to enter any city and if he got caught he would end up in jail or permadead. That would reduce ganking to about zero. You could still fight honorable fights and still full loot while at war.
But if you gank aunt sophie who's trying to gather some wood, you're a murderer.
At that point you can usually tell who's a PvPer and who's a sadistic a**... On will cry, one won't
EVE's sustainability stems from the fact that there is a region of the game, that for the most part, the average player is free from attack from other players. Yes it is full loot, but to attack a player in high-sec means you WILL die also. Yes, you do have a small handfull of asshats who do things like can-flipping and suicide gate camps. But, being that there is a rather large safe zone, EVE remains financially viable. Would it be anywhere near as viable or successful, if Empire (high-sec) space didn't exist? It's not possible to say. Just look at the statistics for EVE players and their spread. If I remember correctly, greater than half of all EVE players NEVER leave high-sec. And a large portion of the other half, only venture out into low/null-sec rarely. It is but a small portion of the player base that lives, works and plays out in the area which could be called full-loot full-time.
So, you agree that PatchDay is correct, and such a game IS financially sustainable. Now, if you want to add conditionals to prove him wrong, that's another issue entirely, but the fact remains that all three of trophic's statements are incorrect.
I would say that without question, a full loot FFA PVP game is financially sustainable. However, I am also saying that EVE's popularity stems largely from the fact that there is a place players can go, that for the most part, they are safe from it. The question remains though... How popular would a game like EVE be if Empire space didn't exist? Would it have anywhere near the amount of players? I would argue, given by the player base statistics, no, not a chance in hell.
But yes, it is possible for a game like DF or any other such title with FFA PVP and full looting, to remain financial viable. However, for how long is the question. Do they have long-term viability? Will they still be around in 5 - 10 years? Maybe. But the track record for it is not all that stellar.
When you see the hardcore PVPrs begging for cheap and unimportant gear right after saying how they want hardcore full loot, you realize that yes, most people can't handle full loot.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment". What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
It sounds like you don't play many PVP MMOs where looting is allowed and that would be why you don't understand what he is explaining to you. "Awesome, rare equipment" is what killed the remains of PvP in UO's Age of Shadows expansion. It was no longer about ability to play, but rather about who bought the best gear. Most PvPers who enjoy full loot want gear which helps with strategy and tactics but they do not want it to be an IWIN button. A good recent example is how EVE Online players did not like the IWIN factor of firing off several doomsday devices, so the devices were changed from AoE to single-target.
The defeated's loot funds the victor's war.
In UO, I will smelt down your armor and weapons to make myself a new spear. I will toss your remaining potions and bandages in my bag to replace what I've used during the battle or to bring home and stockpile. I will throw your spell components (reagents) on my vendor to sell to other players, possibly right back to you.
In EVE, I can use, sell or reprocess what you drop. More often than not, I mash it down to minerals and make myself ammo.
The best part? They are not level-based MMOs, so you don't need to have the biggest and best to compete. You don't need to have played the same amount of time as your opponent to defeat him (this is where someone usually brings up a 4 day old noob vs a 6yr old veteran in a 1 on 1 duel.... like that often happens). For example, in EVE, you don't need a 40 billion ISK ship covered in named gear to participate in endgame battle, and there are a good number of ships on the battlefiled that take only a few million ISK to kit out.
You're thinking in terms of purples, epics, IWIN buttons, etc. That design doesn't work with a full loot environment.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
So what I understand up to now is that peoples do not like the feeling that they can loose something? Inst that boring? To know that there is no wrong way so whatever you do is right? Where is the challenge? Where is the reward?
Hey mind if I rob your house? Take everything, and leave you there to start from nothing
You are welcome. If I'm stupid enough and have nothing else while cannot defend it there is nothing wrong about it....
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
EVE isn't full loot. You can never take an enemy's ship and cargo intact. The game also has clones and insurance. It can be full loss if you're stupid but it's never been full loot.
To be fair, I can't think of a game (though it may exist) where I can take another players body. I mean, the ship is the player. Where would you put the defeated players ship if you could take? You certainly can't pilot two ships at once and a players cargo hold (assuming a combat ship) is likely not going to hold much more then a shuttle (if that). Otherwise, you can salvage another players ship. In a traditional "humanoid avatar" game I don't think you can typically butcher another player once they are dead.
Aside from that, the cargo hold is analogous to a players backback/bag in other games. The main difference being that some of the loot can be destroyed in combat. For the sake of immersion, I can understand that some cargo might not survive a ship going pop.
As far as clones, I'm not really sure how this varies from a "grave yard" in other games where you can just respawn. Insurance, while valuable early on, tends to lose it's effectiveness as you move on to higher-end ships. As it stands, the insurance I can get now would not pay for my ship to be replaced and costs a rediculous (in my opinion) amount.
Just because there are mechanics to minimize the impact of dying does not negate a full loot style mechanics.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Full Loot and Gear-oriented games do not mix. Period.
Full loot in UO worked because the gear was never really anything special. Material objects were not the main motivation for playing the game. The gameplay was the motivation for playing. It took very little cash and time to refit your toon if you lost everything.
Take WoW, for example, where people grind for gear, sometimes they have to save up a lot of gold to buy something, then spend even more money to enchant it. etc. all to get killed and have someone steal it. Most people would be pissed. Obtaining good gear in these types of games it a large part of the gameplay mechanism.
I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
For me, its just a death a penalty.
If you kill me in PvP and take my stuff, perhaps I have to play a lil smarter next time, and it makes me think about what i did wrong. I found games where if you die, and the loss is basically , nothing, well i find that somewhat dull.
The same holds true for the other guy. You sure you want to sit there and camp my body? Becuse I fouind in games like this, your more likely to get retaliated upon for doing so.
Thats my personal gaming taste, its not right or wrong.
When i do get pk'd, I hardly wondered what the pkers childhood was like.
I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
You should worry more about how such a very simple and basic game mechanic has you so disillusioned. In full loot MMOs, your weapon, your armor, your ship/car/mount are just tools to accomplish a task. They are expendable tools. Calling it theft and generalizing that they must have had a rotten childhood? Do you truly believe that when someone takes your pawn in chess they are doing it solely to upset you? Are you sure the emotional issues are on the part of the other player?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Originally posted by spankybus I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
If it is part of a game, then it's part of the game. When you buy the game and it says that it is PVP FFA, you decide to go into it with a WoW gear mentallity, and then get worked up and rage about it...who is ruining who's experience? We see nothing different between looting in NPCs and players, because in games with this design, it is just as easy to get gear back as waiting for NPC to respawn. Many of these players see it nothing more than a game of tag or capture the flag.
IMO, people who try to make negative real life comparisions of PVP FFA players have a skewed view on life themselves. The ones who cling to 0s and 1s like it's their holy grail have the nerve to call PVP FFA players 'social issues.' The ones who will attack a boss which spawns once a week for months upon months to get an item have issues with PVP FFA players because they treat the game for what it really is...just a game. Irony, isn't it?
Of course, it's just a players preference, right? Sure, whatever...but MMO players disrepecting other MMO players is on the same page as Mississippi calling Alabama 'rednecks.'
Ultimately a full-loot PVP game is unworkable. It means that all gameplay is restricted to a small number of highly equipped players who can prevent all newcomers from progressing. Such a game is not financially sustainable.
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
Yes, and played it too. It's not a full loot PVP system though.
Comments
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
But here is the beauty and elegance of a full loot MMO (like EVE online, etc). Say some nerd has the ultimate weapon, like a Titan (in EVE). Titans take months to make and are insanely expensive or at least were in my time pre-Domination expansion
So it was rare to see a Titan.
This balances out PVP a bit and make it more bout player skill. Cause people were scared to bring overpowered crap to every little fight. This allowed lots of great fights were people were flying lots of cheap ships (tier 1 -> low tier 2 like HACs). Even newbies came along with us in gangs and got some kills. And due to uber ships being super expensive, they were rare to see (like a tier 3).
Ever see a vet use greens in WoW when they had Epics available to them? No you won';t. But in EVE, people will pvp in cheap t1/t2 ships all the time. I know myself I'd only bring out my super expensive ships for rare occasions.
So you contradict yourself and prove what I say. You hardcore PVPrs are scared shitless about losing your gear. You are actually little carebears with a big mouth.
actually we risk the gear we can afford to lose. some can afford more than others and thats what makes interesting pvp fights.
say we are all in HACs (T2 cruisers) and battleships (with the tacklers and jammer T1 support) which are fair prices an 1 year old player can afford to lose. we attack a weaker fleet in size but we dont kill them fast enough and the distress call was received by alliance members. Suddenly we get a small fleet of motherships/carriers drop on us. we shit our pants and then die (unless you managed to run away)
or we have our dreadnoughts on standby as well ready to jump in
so the pvp is more strategic, planned out, and we did not risk more than what was needed.
having full loot means you think 2x before you act because mistakes can be expensive.
its like in the movie zombie strippers, when they where talking about the reanimating death, once the fear of dying is removed you no longer have that limit imposed on you, you then become the supper soldier. in non loot games people dont risk anything and they go in and do whatever they want how they want, you then end up with leeroy jenkins.
EVE once more is a good exception. But the fact remains, most people can't handle full loot, it's normal and it's human nature. You just risk what you can easily replace in one day or less. There is no hardcore. I agree it's more interesting, but the players screaming in the forums for cheap gear make me laugh.
THE TRUTH (in capital letters no less) requires solid evidence to back it up. You have provided none. Therefore this thread is full of fail and can result in nothing more than people posting their opinions based on their own limited experience and often narrow minded viewpoints.
Agreed.
I'd gladly play a full loot pvp game IF:
1) its strictly 1v1
2) its twitch based, not gear based
but then i guess i'd be alone, since that kind of game wouldnt allow for griefing, and full loot pvpers only look for grief games where they fight if odds are heavily stacked for them.
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
EVE's sustainability stems from the fact that there is a region of the game, that for the most part, the average player is free from attack from other players. Yes it is full loot, but to attack a player in high-sec means you WILL die also. Yes, you do have a small handfull of asshats who do things like can-flipping and suicide gate camps. But, being that there is a rather large safe zone, EVE remains financially viable. Would it be anywhere near as viable or successful, if Empire (high-sec) space didn't exist? It's not possible to say. Just look at the statistics for EVE players and their spread. If I remember correctly, greater than half of all EVE players NEVER leave high-sec. And a large portion of the other half, only venture out into low/null-sec rarely. It is but a small portion of the player base that lives, works and plays out in the area which could be called full-loot full-time.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
Full loot FFA PvP is not what drives people to hate this system.
It's the wild wild west-world. Someone shows up, kills you, takes all your stuff and is kind of officially declared the winning guy by the system.
Like in some warcamp in the kongo, or some mafia-driven town in the caucasus, or any other lawless place on the planet.
I'd be all in favor for a FFA PvP game, if it was in a world where you suffer the consequences for killing innocents. So if you gank that guy over there for fun; you might end up in jail for the next 50 years "for fun". So if you wanna keep doing this "serial-killer-playstyle" you'll have to live with being on the bottom end of society.
The problem is the warlord/mafia/syndicate worlds that favor FFA full loot PvP.
M
Now you are just arguing semantics to be arguing. Can you take whatever is left on the corpse when they die? Yes. You can fully loot anything that is left after destruction. Full Loot.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
EVE's sustainability stems from the fact that there is a region of the game, that for the most part, the average player is free from attack from other players. Yes it is full loot, but to attack a player in high-sec means you WILL die also. Yes, you do have a small handfull of asshats who do things like can-flipping and suicide gate camps. But, being that there is a rather large safe zone, EVE remains financially viable. Would it be anywhere near as viable or successful, if Empire (high-sec) space didn't exist? It's not possible to say. Just look at the statistics for EVE players and their spread. If I remember correctly, greater than half of all EVE players NEVER leave high-sec. And a large portion of the other half, only venture out into low/null-sec rarely. It is but a small portion of the player base that lives, works and plays out in the area which could be called full-loot full-time.
So, you agree that PatchDay is correct, and such a game IS financially sustainable. Now, if you want to add conditionals to prove him wrong, that's another issue entirely, but the fact remains that all three of trophic's statements are incorrect.
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That's funny because, that is the exact reason several people gave previously in this thread. They don't like it, or hate it, because someone can take everything from them after killing them, even if they didn't want to engage in a PVP fight at that time.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
I liked Planetside. Full Loot. Balanced PVP (due to being an FPS), you get your gear back upon spawn, but players can take your empire specific weapons and such. (which they lose upon death)
win concept?
That's funny because, that is the exact reason several people gave previously in this thread. They don't like it, or hate it, because someone can take everything from them after killing them, even if they didn't want to engage in a PVP fight at that time.
Yes, but that only happens because the PvP guy is not punished at all most of the time. He gets a red flag and a pat on the back.
What if the guy was tagged 'murderer' for the rest of his playtime, every guard in the game would try to kill him, he would not be able to enter any city and if he got caught he would end up in jail or permadead. That would reduce ganking to about zero. You could still fight honorable fights and still full loot while at war.
But if you gank aunt sophie who's trying to gather some wood, you're a murderer.
At that point you can usually tell who's a PvPer and who's a sadistic a**... On will cry, one won't
M
So, you agree that PatchDay is correct, and such a game IS financially sustainable. Now, if you want to add conditionals to prove him wrong, that's another issue entirely, but the fact remains that all three of trophic's statements are incorrect.
I would say that without question, a full loot FFA PVP game is financially sustainable. However, I am also saying that EVE's popularity stems largely from the fact that there is a place players can go, that for the most part, they are safe from it. The question remains though... How popular would a game like EVE be if Empire space didn't exist? Would it have anywhere near the amount of players? I would argue, given by the player base statistics, no, not a chance in hell.
But yes, it is possible for a game like DF or any other such title with FFA PVP and full looting, to remain financial viable. However, for how long is the question. Do they have long-term viability? Will they still be around in 5 - 10 years? Maybe. But the track record for it is not all that stellar.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
The main reason why pvpers want that should be simple to understand. We want for PVP to be about our player skill. I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they had on awesome, rare equipment
LMAO - how did he GET the good gear then! He had to be skilled to get it in the first place, never mind keep it! If he ever lost a PvP fight, he'd lose his "awesome, rare equipment".
What a cop-out... "I use skill, everyone else uses gear".
It sounds like you don't play many PVP MMOs where looting is allowed and that would be why you don't understand what he is explaining to you. "Awesome, rare equipment" is what killed the remains of PvP in UO's Age of Shadows expansion. It was no longer about ability to play, but rather about who bought the best gear. Most PvPers who enjoy full loot want gear which helps with strategy and tactics but they do not want it to be an IWIN button. A good recent example is how EVE Online players did not like the IWIN factor of firing off several doomsday devices, so the devices were changed from AoE to single-target.
The defeated's loot funds the victor's war.
In UO, I will smelt down your armor and weapons to make myself a new spear. I will toss your remaining potions and bandages in my bag to replace what I've used during the battle or to bring home and stockpile. I will throw your spell components (reagents) on my vendor to sell to other players, possibly right back to you.
In EVE, I can use, sell or reprocess what you drop. More often than not, I mash it down to minerals and make myself ammo.
The best part? They are not level-based MMOs, so you don't need to have the biggest and best to compete. You don't need to have played the same amount of time as your opponent to defeat him (this is where someone usually brings up a 4 day old noob vs a 6yr old veteran in a 1 on 1 duel.... like that often happens). For example, in EVE, you don't need a 40 billion ISK ship covered in named gear to participate in endgame battle, and there are a good number of ships on the battlefiled that take only a few million ISK to kit out.
You're thinking in terms of purples, epics, IWIN buttons, etc. That design doesn't work with a full loot environment.
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Hey mind if I rob your house? Take everything, and leave you there to start from nothing
You are welcome. If I'm stupid enough and have nothing else while cannot defend it there is nothing wrong about it....
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
You can take my chararacters gear, but you can't take away the skills i've built up on him..
You kill me, i'll just go craft another set of gear.
/shrug
To be fair, I can't think of a game (though it may exist) where I can take another players body. I mean, the ship is the player. Where would you put the defeated players ship if you could take? You certainly can't pilot two ships at once and a players cargo hold (assuming a combat ship) is likely not going to hold much more then a shuttle (if that). Otherwise, you can salvage another players ship. In a traditional "humanoid avatar" game I don't think you can typically butcher another player once they are dead.
Aside from that, the cargo hold is analogous to a players backback/bag in other games. The main difference being that some of the loot can be destroyed in combat. For the sake of immersion, I can understand that some cargo might not survive a ship going pop.
As far as clones, I'm not really sure how this varies from a "grave yard" in other games where you can just respawn. Insurance, while valuable early on, tends to lose it's effectiveness as you move on to higher-end ships. As it stands, the insurance I can get now would not pay for my ship to be replaced and costs a rediculous (in my opinion) amount.
Just because there are mechanics to minimize the impact of dying does not negate a full loot style mechanics.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Full Loot and Gear-oriented games do not mix. Period.
Full loot in UO worked because the gear was never really anything special. Material objects were not the main motivation for playing the game. The gameplay was the motivation for playing. It took very little cash and time to refit your toon if you lost everything.
Take WoW, for example, where people grind for gear, sometimes they have to save up a lot of gold to buy something, then spend even more money to enchant it. etc. all to get killed and have someone steal it. Most people would be pissed. Obtaining good gear in these types of games it a large part of the gameplay mechanism.
I worry about people who really feel a need to steal other peoples stuff. I think these people get off in upsetting other people. Which makes me wonder just how much their early years sucked that tehy have to resort to theft in avideo game to feel empowered. /shrug
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
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Oh, how I miss the good old days of UO.
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For me, its just a death a penalty.
If you kill me in PvP and take my stuff, perhaps I have to play a lil smarter next time, and it makes me think about what i did wrong. I found games where if you die, and the loss is basically , nothing, well i find that somewhat dull.
The same holds true for the other guy. You sure you want to sit there and camp my body? Becuse I fouind in games like this, your more likely to get retaliated upon for doing so.
Thats my personal gaming taste, its not right or wrong.
When i do get pk'd, I hardly wondered what the pkers childhood was like.
You should worry more about how such a very simple and basic game mechanic has you so disillusioned. In full loot MMOs, your weapon, your armor, your ship/car/mount are just tools to accomplish a task. They are expendable tools. Calling it theft and generalizing that they must have had a rotten childhood? Do you truly believe that when someone takes your pawn in chess they are doing it solely to upset you? Are you sure the emotional issues are on the part of the other player?
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If it is part of a game, then it's part of the game. When you buy the game and it says that it is PVP FFA, you decide to go into it with a WoW gear mentallity, and then get worked up and rage about it...who is ruining who's experience? We see nothing different between looting in NPCs and players, because in games with this design, it is just as easy to get gear back as waiting for NPC to respawn. Many of these players see it nothing more than a game of tag or capture the flag.
IMO, people who try to make negative real life comparisions of PVP FFA players have a skewed view on life themselves. The ones who cling to 0s and 1s like it's their holy grail have the nerve to call PVP FFA players 'social issues.' The ones who will attack a boss which spawns once a week for months upon months to get an item have issues with PVP FFA players because they treat the game for what it really is...just a game. Irony, isn't it?
Of course, it's just a players preference, right? Sure, whatever...but MMO players disrepecting other MMO players is on the same page as Mississippi calling Alabama 'rednecks.'
What? Soooo you never heard of EVE Online then?
Yes, and played it too. It's not a full loot PVP system though.