Expirience penalties are stupid. They where stupid in EQ, they are stupid now. Noone with a life would EVER want such a thing, because if you have a life, your time is worth something, and you only have so much recreational time, having several hours of it negated is not fun, or exciting, or challenging, it's just frustrating , designing a game with feature meant simply to frustrate is ridiculous.
Experience penalties accomplish a much needed aspect in an MMO in that it tends to make people think before doing. Those who would not or could not think ahead suffered immensly.
What about raids do you ask? People will die but I know from experience that people die less in a game that has a penalty. IE they dont go afk on a raid pull. They dont get high or wasted out of thier minds on raids. Or any of the countless other crap that afflicks WoW raids.
Your right my time is valuable. I would rather spend it on a game that had aspects that promotes people to do thier best and 1 aspect of that is a penalty if you die.
Its not for everyone, but as i have stated earlier, theres fast comming a market who will pay a huge amount to the game company that steps up.
Ya, I think permadeath PvE is as hardcore as it gets. Otherwise, all you can really relate to is boss fights that last way too long, like that thing in EQ 1 or 2 that people spent 11+ hours on. That's hardcore, but also inane - I'd rather have faster fights with more risk. I heard a suggestion a few days ago about making mobs loot the player after death; that's f'n awesome imo.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Hardcore pve is not that hard to make in this day and age, and make it work. EQ went to npc mercs to help you fill out leveling groups, made pots to make exp go faster even lowered the exp needed to level. The simple fact is, that games out grow the hardcore pve stuff your wanting to quickly, to me nothing will ever be harder than the old muds made by simutronics for pve. Simply because you had to get a quest, do that, then give xp to the orb you got to earn favors from the gods. Without said favors it was a 50/50 shot that when you died it was perma death.
I'm not saying an mmo needs that, what it needs is hard core immersion, you've killed 100 orcs in this zone, the orc's have hired an assassain to kill you. The assassain is your level and set to make it almost impossible to kill unless you know how to play your class. If he kills you, then you come back weakened by your death as the assassain holds part of your soul. Get a group kill assassin get your xp back, plus get a quest item to hunt down orc chieftan x for revenge.
Things like that I'd enjoy, it will never happen, but I'd enjoy it.
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
What is funny is that nobody considered EQ a hard MMORPG back then, it was just a plain normal game. I wonder if WOW will be considered hardcore in 2015.
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started being dumbed down for the mainstream video game players.
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
If you want to make a profit. If you're filthy, stinkin' rich and you want to create a game that caters to your tastes, however unpopular they may be, and don't expect to make money on it, go ahead.
What I can't handle are the hardcore casuals trying to emulate those casual hardcores, what with their levels and stuff that makes things and kills other stuff. I mean, all that hardcore PvE only incites PvP for wanting those phat drops.
Why not just hook up a shockinh system to your RL body so when you die you get shocked violently, that'll be harcore enough to not want to casually through your toon's life away. Or better yet, an endorphine drip that'll send some euphoric goodness when you complete a certain raid without dying...
The PVP'ers want full loot and free range kills, while the carebears want PVE on training wheels. But something either group cannot seem to grasp is the challenge of hardcore PVE, with its wandering overconned mobs and stinging death penalties requiring strangers to group together and communicate in order to survive in a dangerous and unforgiving game world. So, except for niche gaming, ENOUGH with FULL LOOT PVP that only drives away most gamers. And ENOUGH with "Candyland" hold-my-hand PVE that bores all but the least cognitive to tears. IT IS TIME FOR HARDCORE PVE, like we had abotu 8 or 9 years ago. (With modern graphics, U.I., new world, of course).
I'd be down for the forced grouping part but beyond that I suspect our vision of such a game will divert drastically. But yeah I'd love to play an MMO thats hell to play every step of the way. PVE would be more meaningful then
IT IS TIME FOR HARDCORE PVE, like we had abotu 8 or 9 years ago. (With modern graphics, U.I., new world, of course).
...Which will appeal to a minority in this day and age.
this minority is large enough to become the entire playerbase of an mmo. No mmo tries to soak in every player in the world, they all have a target consumer. There's enough within this minority to have a MMo designed just for them.
Imagine a company making wheelchairs. The people who use wheelchairs (elderly and disabled0 are obviously a minority. But large enough for these companies to have all the clientelle they need.
minority or majority, it doesn't matter. the numbers are in the millions at least.
I think not. It is quoted quite often that WOW has less than 2% of the players raid "hard" content before WOTLK. That is before WOW reaches 10M. Even if we take the 10M number, that is only around 200k players, a FAR CRY from millions.
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
"should" implies a judging criterion. In a "making your core customer happy" point of view, they are no longer the focus of Blizzard obviously. It really does not make sense for a company to focus on 2% of its customer base and ignore the other 98%.
Blizzard did still give the hardcore players a hard-mode raid, which IMHO, is more than enough (for a 2% player base).
Of course there are those "extreme nutbags" that would try to rip thru it in a month. But there are "extreme nutbags" (I LOVE that terminology, by the way...lol) that think FreeRealms is a fun and challenging game too, or that think Darkfall is the end all be all of MMOs, or that think EVE is the salvation of the gaming universe. The gaming populace is a very very diverse bunch of people with different play styles, likes, dislikes, amount of time they can afford to spend, amount of mental effort they are either capable of, or willing to, expend on a game, etc., etc., ad infinitum. It is also rife with "extreme nutbags" of every type. But you can't consider that super small minority of "nutbagists" when designing a game. All games will have a "nutbag ratio" of some sort.
So I suppose what I meant to say is....that the vast majority of gamers would not be able to "rip thru" what the OP is referring to as "hardcore PvE."
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
"should" implies a judging criterion. In a "making your core customer happy" point of view, they are no longer the focus of Blizzard obviously. It really does not make sense for a company to focus on 2% of its customer base and ignore the other 98%.
Blizzard did still give the hardcore players a hard-mode raid, which IMHO, is more than enough (for a 2% player base).
I have to, from a financial perspective, agree with this. If I was making a game (which is a BUSINESS, for those that were unaware) I would want to make it enjoyable for the largest segment of the population that I could. That's just...logical...if you're in a business. UNLESS your business IS a niche market, you intend for it to cater to only that niche, and you realize that by doing so, you may have a very tight specialization, but you're probably not going to make as much money.
I have to, from a financial perspective, agree with this. If I was making a game (which is a BUSINESS, for those that were unaware) I would want to make it enjoyable for the largest segment of the population that I could. That's just...logical...if you're in a business. UNLESS your business IS a niche market, you intend for it to cater to only that niche, and you realize that by doing so, you may have a very tight specialization, but you're probably not going to make as much money.
Making a game requires business to take place, but it isn't, nor shouldn't, be at the core of what game development is. Your post makes a nod at selling out, essentially.
Every business, even on pure capitalist terms, caters to an audience. I market wrenches to builders, not models. I market Post-Its to office workers, not bartenders. Every market is a niche.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Expirience penalties are stupid. They where stupid in EQ, they are stupid now. Noone with a life would EVER want such a thing, because if you have a life, your time is worth something, and you only have so much recreational time, having several hours of it negated is not fun, or exciting, or challenging, it's just frustrating , designing a game with feature meant simply to frustrate is ridiculous. I don't mind if it take a long time to get somewhere, or if it's very challenging, but let keep what I've accomplished. I always felt like my subscription fee was being stolen when I lost a level, and in the EQ days I didn't have a life (hence I put up with it, though I shouldn't have) I would never stick around for a game that does this in this day and age, as most people wouldn't, hence it isn't done anymore. Let me rephrase that: Like most thing you so called "Hardcore" players (who are everything but) whine about IF IT WAS A GOOD IDEA GAMES WOULD STILL BE DOING IT!!!! That's what kills me. It's not like you morons ever preach about something new, that game developers are afraid to try... no your preaching about old, been there done that, got the tee shirt (literally) features that had their chance, didn't work out, and fell by the wayside. Oh, and for my final flame bait: WoW is not easier just because leveling does not entail waiting 15 minutes for the runner to pull another bear into the camp for 1/20th a % of a level!
There's niches and niches. You sell wrenches to mechanics but you only sell cummins injector wrenches to diesel engine mechnics. The core of game development is always "who am I making the game for?"
'Missed it by a pubic hair' as the Portugese expression goes. The core would be the game itself. The second layer, immediately following the core, would be the highlighted.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Nope the audience decides what the core is. You can theoretically decide to butld a FPS but you better know what the FPS audience is after or your game may not sell.
Now we're hinting at the concept of where the beauty in stories lie: is it the telling, or the interpretation? There's clearly magic that is created by both the pitcher and the catcher, but there is no catcher without something to pitch.
If I want to build a game, I build the game. I then market said game to try and attract as many people who *might be* interested as possible. If I want to build a marketing ploy, I seek consumer opportunities and tailor my product.
The game is the core of the former. The audience, the latter. Selling out is the essence of leaving one's sphere of intellectual guidance and allowing oneself to be influenced by external factors.
Game making is about games. The audience is the second layer, regardless of how you dissect it. By trying to make it the core, you sell out.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Nope the audience decides what the core is. You can theoretically decide to butld a FPS but you better know what the FPS audience is after or your game may not sell.
Now we're hinting at the concept of where the beauty in stories lie: is it the telling, or the interpretation? There's clearly magic that is created by both the pitcher and the catcher, but there is no catcher without something to pitch.
If I want to build a game, I build the game. I then market said game to try and attract as many people who *might be* interested as possible. If I want to build a marketing ploy, I seek consumer opportunities and tailor my product.
The game is the core of the former. The audience, the latter. Selling out is the essence of leaving one's sphere of intellectual guidance and allowing oneself to be influenced by external factors.
Game making is about games. The audience is the second layer, regardless of how you dissect it. By trying to make it the core, you sell out.
There is no game without an audience. They're mutually dependent upon one another. NO one makes a game then thinks about who is willing to play it later, unless its made in a garage. BUSINESSES know their audience before any major effort is even undertaken. If you go out to make an FPS, but you don't know who would want to play it, you don't make the game=)
Whats selling out anyway? Making a game people actually LIKE? Did Blizzard sell out by making a BETTER MMO, when they should've just stuck to grinding mobs, insane down time and spawn camps? Or, did they try something new by eliminating most of grinding aspects and instead made it about stories, short term goals and just playing the game?
There is no game without an audience. They're mutually dependent upon one another. NO one makes a game then thinks about who is willing to play it later, unless its made in a garage. BUSINESSES know their audience before any major effort is even undertaken. If you go out to make an FPS, but you don't know who would want to play it, you don't make the game=) Whats selling out anyway? Making a game people actually LIKE? Did Blizzard sell out by making a BETTER MMO, when they should've just stuck to grinding mobs, insane down time and spawn camps? Or, did they try something new by eliminating most of grinding aspects and instead made it about stories, short term goals and just playing the game?
If the audience is the game's creator, yes. DnD or MTG weren't developped with the intention of becoming mass-market products. They were conceived in private, but spread based on their ingenuity. True popularity if you will. [Edit: these are games with sectors of play that were uncharted- obviously there was a potential market but potential is never synonymous with proven. Because of this, the game was always the focus first and foremost. Because of this, these titles have transended time, despite a progressing media of entertainment.]
Businesses, as you denote them as being, are obviously in it for the money, not the game. You'd build an FPS because you enjoy FPSs, and you want to play one with intimate details that you care for or about. If others happen to care for the details and the implementation, so be it. In this example, the focus is the game, not the business.
A game's content is decided by its creator. It is the content's *implementation* that hinges on feedback from an audience.
Footnote: please don't bring up Blizzard. They themselves acknowledged to selling out, mistiming of product releases they later shot themselves in the foot over, key developpers quitting the company at product transition points and the like. The company has gone on the record multiple times expressing a clear implicit message that their audience was more important than the product that said audience enjoys. The only lesson that should be studied from the Blizzard model is one of marketing: which is seemingly what people confuse for a game these days.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Comments
Experience penalties accomplish a much needed aspect in an MMO in that it tends to make people think before doing. Those who would not or could not think ahead suffered immensly.
What about raids do you ask? People will die but I know from experience that people die less in a game that has a penalty. IE they dont go afk on a raid pull. They dont get high or wasted out of thier minds on raids. Or any of the countless other crap that afflicks WoW raids.
Your right my time is valuable. I would rather spend it on a game that had aspects that promotes people to do thier best and 1 aspect of that is a penalty if you die.
Its not for everyone, but as i have stated earlier, theres fast comming a market who will pay a huge amount to the game company that steps up.
Ya, I think permadeath PvE is as hardcore as it gets. Otherwise, all you can really relate to is boss fights that last way too long, like that thing in EQ 1 or 2 that people spent 11+ hours on. That's hardcore, but also inane - I'd rather have faster fights with more risk. I heard a suggestion a few days ago about making mobs loot the player after death; that's f'n awesome imo.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Hardcore pve is not that hard to make in this day and age, and make it work. EQ went to npc mercs to help you fill out leveling groups, made pots to make exp go faster even lowered the exp needed to level. The simple fact is, that games out grow the hardcore pve stuff your wanting to quickly, to me nothing will ever be harder than the old muds made by simutronics for pve. Simply because you had to get a quest, do that, then give xp to the orb you got to earn favors from the gods. Without said favors it was a 50/50 shot that when you died it was perma death.
I'm not saying an mmo needs that, what it needs is hard core immersion, you've killed 100 orcs in this zone, the orc's have hired an assassain to kill you. The assassain is your level and set to make it almost impossible to kill unless you know how to play your class. If he kills you, then you come back weakened by your death as the assassain holds part of your soul. Get a group kill assassin get your xp back, plus get a quest item to hunt down orc chieftan x for revenge.
Things like that I'd enjoy, it will never happen, but I'd enjoy it.
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
6 pages later, this is not entirely true. Before WoW, the entire MMORPG genre was considered to cater to hardcore players due to the large time investment and dedication required for success.
It wasn't until WoW was released that the genre started being dumbed down for the mainstream video game players.
Fixed.
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
If you want to make a profit. If you're filthy, stinkin' rich and you want to create a game that caters to your tastes, however unpopular they may be, and don't expect to make money on it, go ahead.
What I can't handle are the hardcore casuals trying to emulate those casual hardcores, what with their levels and stuff that makes things and kills other stuff. I mean, all that hardcore PvE only incites PvP for wanting those phat drops.
Why not just hook up a shockinh system to your RL body so when you die you get shocked violently, that'll be harcore enough to not want to casually through your toon's life away. Or better yet, an endorphine drip that'll send some euphoric goodness when you complete a certain raid without dying...
I'd be down for the forced grouping part but beyond that I suspect our vision of such a game will divert drastically. But yeah I'd love to play an MMO thats hell to play every step of the way. PVE would be more meaningful then
Right now, I have only found meaning PVP (EVE)
...Which will appeal to a minority in this day and age.
this minority is large enough to become the entire playerbase of an mmo. No mmo tries to soak in every player in the world, they all have a target consumer. There's enough within this minority to have a MMo designed just for them.
Imagine a company making wheelchairs. The people who use wheelchairs (elderly and disabled0 are obviously a minority. But large enough for these companies to have all the clientelle they need.
minority or majority, it doesn't matter. the numbers are in the millions at least.
I think not. It is quoted quite often that WOW has less than 2% of the players raid "hard" content before WOTLK. That is before WOW reaches 10M. Even if we take the 10M number, that is only around 200k players, a FAR CRY from millions.
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
"should" implies a judging criterion. In a "making your core customer happy" point of view, they are no longer the focus of Blizzard obviously. It really does not make sense for a company to focus on 2% of its customer base and ignore the other 98%.
Blizzard did still give the hardcore players a hard-mode raid, which IMHO, is more than enough (for a 2% player base).
So these hardcore pve people we are talking about now wouldn't they be the super small minority of "nutbagest" of the regular casual mmo gamers? So should this minority be ignored too?
"should" implies a judging criterion. In a "making your core customer happy" point of view, they are no longer the focus of Blizzard obviously. It really does not make sense for a company to focus on 2% of its customer base and ignore the other 98%.
Blizzard did still give the hardcore players a hard-mode raid, which IMHO, is more than enough (for a 2% player base).
I have to, from a financial perspective, agree with this. If I was making a game (which is a BUSINESS, for those that were unaware) I would want to make it enjoyable for the largest segment of the population that I could. That's just...logical...if you're in a business. UNLESS your business IS a niche market, you intend for it to cater to only that niche, and you realize that by doing so, you may have a very tight specialization, but you're probably not going to make as much money.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
meh nm
Making a game requires business to take place, but it isn't, nor shouldn't, be at the core of what game development is. Your post makes a nod at selling out, essentially.
Every business, even on pure capitalist terms, caters to an audience. I market wrenches to builders, not models. I market Post-Its to office workers, not bartenders. Every market is a niche.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Just what is your definition of 'hard'?
No MMO is hard. Some are just more tedious than others.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
THIS ^^
Q.F.T.
Maligar Kelison
Threat Removal
'Missed it by a pubic hair' as the Portugese expression goes. The core would be the game itself. The second layer, immediately following the core, would be the highlighted.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Now we're hinting at the concept of where the beauty in stories lie: is it the telling, or the interpretation? There's clearly magic that is created by both the pitcher and the catcher, but there is no catcher without something to pitch.
If I want to build a game, I build the game. I then market said game to try and attract as many people who *might be* interested as possible. If I want to build a marketing ploy, I seek consumer opportunities and tailor my product.
The game is the core of the former. The audience, the latter. Selling out is the essence of leaving one's sphere of intellectual guidance and allowing oneself to be influenced by external factors.
Game making is about games. The audience is the second layer, regardless of how you dissect it. By trying to make it the core, you sell out.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Now we're hinting at the concept of where the beauty in stories lie: is it the telling, or the interpretation? There's clearly magic that is created by both the pitcher and the catcher, but there is no catcher without something to pitch.
If I want to build a game, I build the game. I then market said game to try and attract as many people who *might be* interested as possible. If I want to build a marketing ploy, I seek consumer opportunities and tailor my product.
The game is the core of the former. The audience, the latter. Selling out is the essence of leaving one's sphere of intellectual guidance and allowing oneself to be influenced by external factors.
Game making is about games. The audience is the second layer, regardless of how you dissect it. By trying to make it the core, you sell out.
There is no game without an audience. They're mutually dependent upon one another. NO one makes a game then thinks about who is willing to play it later, unless its made in a garage. BUSINESSES know their audience before any major effort is even undertaken. If you go out to make an FPS, but you don't know who would want to play it, you don't make the game=)
Whats selling out anyway? Making a game people actually LIKE? Did Blizzard sell out by making a BETTER MMO, when they should've just stuck to grinding mobs, insane down time and spawn camps? Or, did they try something new by eliminating most of grinding aspects and instead made it about stories, short term goals and just playing the game?
If the audience is the game's creator, yes. DnD or MTG weren't developped with the intention of becoming mass-market products. They were conceived in private, but spread based on their ingenuity. True popularity if you will. [Edit: these are games with sectors of play that were uncharted- obviously there was a potential market but potential is never synonymous with proven. Because of this, the game was always the focus first and foremost. Because of this, these titles have transended time, despite a progressing media of entertainment.]
Businesses, as you denote them as being, are obviously in it for the money, not the game. You'd build an FPS because you enjoy FPSs, and you want to play one with intimate details that you care for or about. If others happen to care for the details and the implementation, so be it. In this example, the focus is the game, not the business.
A game's content is decided by its creator. It is the content's *implementation* that hinges on feedback from an audience.
Footnote: please don't bring up Blizzard. They themselves acknowledged to selling out, mistiming of product releases they later shot themselves in the foot over, key developpers quitting the company at product transition points and the like. The company has gone on the record multiple times expressing a clear implicit message that their audience was more important than the product that said audience enjoys. The only lesson that should be studied from the Blizzard model is one of marketing: which is seemingly what people confuse for a game these days.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter