They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..." They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
I really do not understand how they can not see a problem with one class in full plate, with tons of heals... and auras and group buffs.. that also is one of the biggest dps classes? Kind of All in one, and.. no that is not a problem... 6-7000 dps from a healer class in plate is ok... but a dps class without any other skills.. no that we need to look at.
Oh well, at least they are consistent in their thinking. Never look at the real problem.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Theres the expected number of posts here along the lines of 'I got 'ganked' by a rogue once, I'm glad Blizzard are nerfing them', but ignoring those and focusing on the PVE, the main problem I can see is that there are some excellent players (of all classes) out there who outshine others in dps and it seems that this minority is the ones that Blizzard notice more and make their nerf plans around. Personally I was 'average' but others I grouped with could really do some damage. I don't really see why this is an issue for pve though, although I do know that too many people focus more on the dps meter than on the actual dungeon encounters (dps whoring locks and mages from my experience).
Another problem I see is that they seem to base the data on people in full uber-epic gear/weapon sets, which is unfair to those less fortunate in raiding. Not a lot you can do about that in a game that focuses so heavily on loot.
Rogues being a pure dps class are supposed to do awesome dps..if they can't dps, what can they do? Stand around in IF/Dal opening lockboxes for kicks?
As for pvp, well I am not too selfish to know when I've just been owned by a skilled player, and cry about it. Instead of going straight on Blizzards forum complaining about Overpowered <insert class name here>, treat it as a learning experience and see what YOU can do to stop it happening less in the future. Or cancel your account.
I find it extremely silly to keep worrying that one class is doing 10more DPS than another and having these constant balance changes. Certain classes should be doing more or less dmg than others, but this is the kind of BS that players must deal with in MMOs that try to mix PvE and PvP together!
Given the hysterical focus on recount dps readings and other such, its hardly surprising that Blizzard would yet again be swinging their nerf bat around. No doubt the cloth wearers have been whining even more than usual about rogues.
But to focus on protect spec warriors... In PvP no less, shows just how petty Blizzard can become.
its crazy that people think each class should be no stronger than any other, i think the strengths/weaknesses of each class should be unique, so rogues do high 'explosive' dps, well, thats not exactly unreasonable.. likewise.. hunters have flare+mark, which usually = dead rogue.. the 'rock paper scissors' balance is viable imo..
I find it absolutely hilarious that after 5 years they still can't figure out how to balance their 10 classes. And they actually though it could be an e-sport in such a condition? LOL.
No mmorpg has had perfect balance, World of Warcraft has had the best by far though. I myself never see a problem in PVP : Kill anyone with any class.
The classes are different, as such they can not be balanced to 100%. Some classes are always a bit stronger, others a bit weaker. Especially when Blizzard has to focus on PvE first to make sure the classes ain't overpowered there. And even more so since abilities are added over time and new content is released. Sometimes a class is stronger, sometimes a class is weaker. Complaining about that really makes no sense.
The WoW PvPers complaining about that remind me somehow on a bunch of old fishermen in the age of 80, who still go every 12 hours "oooooh here comes the ebb tide again! Oh no, stupid ebb tide, when will they fix it!!", just to shout some hours later "Hurray they fixed it. Oh wait, what's coming there? The flood tide! Oh noeeees what should we do?!? Let's stop fishing and become miners until this water is fixed!".
I mean Blizzard is tweaking those classes since about half a decade. Shouting "nerf rouges!!!!111" (or any other class) will probably not help them a lot. Sometimes your class is due to a patch a bit stronger, sometimes a bit weaker. I'm not saying that thought out criticism is bad, I'm just saying: stop hoping for the classes to be ever completly balanced. It's the wrong game for that. And in the long run it doesn't matter.
I find it absolutely hilarious that after 5 years they still can't figure out how to balance their 10 classes. And they actually though it could be an e-sport in such a condition? LOL.
No mmorpg has had perfect balance, World of Warcraft has had the best by far though. I myself never see a problem in PVP : Kill anyone with any class.
the PVP aspect in WOW is very much team based, the trouble is, that not everyone is actually that good at playing the game as part of a team, the tendency to go 'rambo' or at least to try ... well, the most successful players are the ones that work together, regardless of class, and no amount of 'balancing' will change that, i can imagine quite a few of the gripes are from players, or ex-players, who found the ability to work as part of a group, challenging...
Been a rogue, played arena at ~2,1k rating 3on3 (not rpm), left somewhere in the middle of 2009. There is way more ridicilous shit than rogue dps. Less dps means that you're just more likely to die first in pvp while vanish bug and several other flaws still exist (for example players going 100%-0% in 1sec through rng). If the next Addon keeps that quality i won't touch wow anymore.
So after totally ratf***ing the game balance (and making the game damn near unrecognizable to the game they started with) by trying to appease the arena duel whores, they have decided to keep up the vicious cycle. Gee thanks Blizzard keep up the great work.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
My Rogue hasn't gotten any complaints from the NPC's, I wonder who's complaining? 1. PvP victims? 2. Jealous DPS? 3. Devs angry rogues are blowing through content too fast? 4. Tanks who can't hold aggro against a Rogue's mighty DPS? ...
all these people complaining, i wonder if they played during the days of world of roguecraft and i wonder how little sympathy the old school players that were around beta/release will have for them.
To all those idiots that love to post without knowing any facts, this is not a nerf based on PVP at all. Nor is this game world of roguecraft anymore. Rogue are a very underplayed class, the changes made in 3.3 were not somehting that eveyone saw and made rogue FoTM. Kinda hard to have that anymore with 80 lvls to drudge through and blizz making balance changes CONSTANTLY now, not once every large patch.
What happened was that blizz made a change to how deadly posion worked, to ive rogues and increase in PVE damage without effecting PVP. Deadly posion now when stacked to 5 will make your other posion proc when it procs, that way you are wasting procs and having to use weapon switching macros. Also, deep in assassanation, master posioner allows you to use envenom without losing your deadly poison stacks.
Basically what this did was allow combat to get massive and constant instant poison procs, greatly increasing their damage in raids, and assassanation got boosted even more. Reason being their rotation got much more simple. Now all they have to do is get one SnD off, and then pop envenom on every 4-5 CP. No longer do they ahve to worry about keeping rupture up. So even bad rogue could achieve great numbers now.
Whats sad, is the ghostcrawler came out and said the inflated numbers where because of a couple fights that favored melee DPS, yet the next day, the nerfed. This comes after the 5% reduction to HFB that happened right after 3.3 launched. Now another reduction by 5% and you have the most pointless 51 point talant in all of wow. A 5% increase in damage for 1 minute against a target that is bleeding. Are you kidding me!!! On top of that, they nerfed posions, so it didnt just hurt Assassanation, it urt combat, and it bleeds into PVP, where there wasnt a problem.
Those are the facts, think of them what you will. My hope is this will get read and stop the idiotic PVP excuse of rogues being OP. Damage was def a little high after the changes, i dont think anyone would say a small change wasnt needed, but this was a bit much. And they made a borring 51 pointer, a joke.
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..." They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
LOL that's about it.
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
To all those idiots that love to post without knowing any facts, this is not a nerf based on PVP at all. Nor is this game world of roguecraft anymore. Rogue are a very underplayed class, the changes made in 3.3 were not somehting that eveyone saw and made rogue FoTM. Kinda hard to have that anymore with 80 lvls to drudge through and blizz making balance changes CONSTANTLY now, not once every large patch.
What happened was that blizz made a change to how deadly posion worked, to ive rogues and increase in PVE damage without effecting PVP. Deadly posion now when stacked to 5 will make your other posion proc when it procs, that way you are wasting procs and having to use weapon switching macros. Also, deep in assassanation, master posioner allows you to use envenom without losing your deadly poison stacks.
Basically what this did was allow combat to get massive and constant instant poison procs, greatly increasing their damage in raids, and assassanation got boosted even more. Reason being their rotation got much more simple. Now all they have to do is get one SnD off, and then pop envenom on every 4-5 CP. No longer do they ahve to worry about keeping rupture up. So even bad rogue could achieve great numbers now. Whats sad, is the ghostcrawler came out and said the inflated numbers where because of a couple fights that favored melee DPS, yet the next day, the nerfed. This comes after the 5% reduction to HFB that happened right after 3.3 launched. Now another reduction by 5% and you have the most pointless 51 point talant in all of wow. A 5% increase in damage for 1 minute against a target that is bleeding. Are you kidding me!!! On top of that, they nerfed posions, so it didnt just hurt Assassanation, it urt combat, and it bleeds into PVP, where there wasnt a problem.
Those are the facts, think of them what you will. My hope is this will get read and stop the idiotic PVP excuse of rogues being OP. Damage was def a little high after the changes, i dont think anyone would say a small change wasnt needed, but this was a bit much. And they made a borring 51 pointer, a joke.
They really need to make up their mind with HFB, since WOTLK hit, it has been changed and changed again. I would roll combat if it was more interesting then auto attack. Rogues are an underplayed class anymore, that you are correct about, most of the people complaining probably haven't played in a few years.
The PvP complaints about rogues are due to failure to understand how to beat us. I play more then Rogue and I have not one problem beating them on any of my alts. It's a matter of forcing the rogue to blow his CDs more then anything, something most people have no clue how to do.
I find it absolutely hilarious that after 5 years they still can't figure out how to balance their 10 classes. And they actually though it could be an e-sport in such a condition? LOL.
There are 30 different talent specs that the classes can obtain. It is much more than just 10 classes.
Then there is all the different incarnations of pve and pvp. All games have balance issues as that is something that happens when games evolve.
Rogue damage is high, but I think it should be all things considered. Melee range, lack of buffs, survivability, etc.
Couldn't agree more with the final line. Not to mention having to shift to another target mid fight only to lose all combo points and having to reset your entire rotation because SnD dropped off and/or you couldn't get a Envenom off to refresh it . I can only speak for Assassination spec though. WTB 1min CD ability to move combo points to another target....
Agree with this very much. Someone must have been crying like a little baby that they got beat by a PURE DPS class.
Says the rogue. There are 4 pure DPS classes. Mage/Warlock/Hunter and Rogue. No one of those should ever, under any circumstance, dominate the charts for straight DPS. This isn't a matter of whether the class can or cannot bring buffs, if they're always in melee, what their survival is, etc. The simple fact is, PVE balance isn't based around what you bring to the table anymore in terms of buffs. The devs on countless occasions have said this. They also said they don't want each class performing equally on any boss. Rogues did too much damage. Hunters, mages, and warlocks especially couldn't compete with Rogue damage. Especially given how retardedly simple the rogue rotation is, of Garrote->HFB->Muti->S&D->muti til 5, envenom, muti til 5, envenom, rinse repeat keeping HFB up as necessary.
Combine that with every escape, control, and utility the rogue has, including the ever-awesome misdirect advanced that is Tricks of the Trade, and the rogue brings more than enough utility to sit in fourth place on more than their share of fights.
The nerf was necessary, and rogues are still out of line, even with the nerf.
To me, it sounds like this entire string of quotes is just a bunch of rogues that didn't know what they were doing to begin with that got a much-needed nerf to the class, and hopefully not the last to boot.
Assassination already has 40% haste perma-on after the opening few seconds, with HFB nearly so just behind it. The rotation is already stupidly simple, and the class is far from hurting, even after the nerfs. If you think rogues honestly have it bad, go play a feral druid and cry yourself to sleep on how horrible a rotation they have, then complain about your bad dps with only 1 buff to actively need to recharge.
I find it extremely silly to keep worrying that one class is doing 10more DPS than another and having these constant balance changes. Certain classes should be doing more or less dmg than others, but this is the kind of BS that players must deal with in MMOs that try to mix PvE and PvP together!
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..." They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
My old WoW guild was a 350 member raid guild, and one of the top 3 Horde raid guilds on the server, in progression. (We bounced between the second and third spot.) Know how many rogues we had?
TWO.
I think that pretty much says it all about a raid's "need".....for rogues.
Rogues, at least on my old server, were pretty much considered just a PvP class.
Says the rogue. There are 4 pure DPS classes. Mage/Warlock/Hunter and Rogue. No one of those should ever, under any circumstance, dominate the charts for straight DPS. This isn't a matter of whether the class can or cannot bring buffs, if they're always in melee, what their survival is, etc. The simple fact is, PVE balance isn't based around what you bring to the table anymore in terms of buffs. The devs on countless occasions have said this. They also said they don't want each class performing equally on any boss. Rogues did too much damage. Hunters, mages, and warlocks especially couldn't compete with Rogue damage. Especially given how retardedly simple the rogue rotation is, of Garrote->HFB->Muti->S&D->muti til 5, envenom, muti til 5, envenom, rinse repeat keeping HFB up as necessary. Combine that with every escape, control, and utility the rogue has, including the ever-awesome misdirect advanced that is Tricks of the Trade, and the rogue brings more than enough utility to sit in fourth place on more than their share of fights. The nerf was necessary, and rogues are still out of line, even with the nerf. To me, it sounds like this entire string of quotes is just a bunch of rogues that didn't know what they were doing to begin with that got a much-needed nerf to the class, and hopefully not the last to boot. Assassination already has 40% haste perma-on after the opening few seconds, with HFB nearly so just behind it. The rotation is already stupidly simple, and the class is far from hurting, even after the nerfs. If you think rogues honestly have it bad, go play a feral druid and cry yourself to sleep on how horrible a rotation they have, then complain about your bad dps with only 1 buff to actively need to recharge.
When I quit the rotation was a bit different, HFB x3 and a few minor changes, meaning one minor slip or switch of the target required almost 30 secs of catch up if things didn't go as planned. You can't really blame the Rogue for blizzard simplifying the rotation. Would be nice if blizzard could find a balance in DPS, but it's impossible and will never happen. After these new "minor" changes there will be another class being far to powerful (because complaining about your team makes sense, right?) and people will complain, it's a vicious cycle. It's rather silly you use the word "compete" when it all boils down to being grouped, being a team to accomplish a goal, the very same goal.
Btw, when I did quit locks were pulling over 10K dps with a rather simple rotation, hunters were not far behind. Blame the one making the changes, not the players.
This just goes to show you that no MMORPG, regardless of how well made it is, can ever balance classes for PvP or PvE. There are simply too many variables including gear, specs and abilities not to mention the ingenuity of players who can and will exploit the game design.
Class balance is like the Holy Grail of MMORPG design. Look for it and you will not find it, try to grasp it and it will slip through your fingers. The truth is that class balance doesn't exist. It never has and never will. All of those players who rant, rage and scream for such a thing, are as clueless as the knights of old who gave their lives for nothing more than an impossible dream.
This just goes to show you that no MMORPG, regardless of how well made it is, can ever balance classes for PvP or PvE. There are simply too many variables including gear, specs and abilities not to mention the ingenuity of players who can and will exploit the game design. Class balance is like the Holy Grail of MMORPG design. Look for it and you will not find it, try to grasp it and it will slip through your fingers. The truth is that class balance doesn't exist. It never has and never will. All of those players who rant, rage and scream for such a thing, are as clueless as the knights of old who gave their lives for nothing more than an impossible dream.
Actually when you think about it WOW should be one of the easiest MMO's to implement balance in PVP due to the fact that it mainly takes place in instances. I would think that a real easy way would be that when a person queues up for a battleground they are automatically given a preselected gear and weapon score for their class regardless of what they have equipped . From what I've come across in my years of playing the game its not so much the spec that a player has but the gear that they are able to use in those battlegrounds that helps to make them rather invincible.
Comments
"Rogues Taking it From Behind..."
They nerf them? Finally, after 6 years of game life, t'was time. But do a nice nerf not just 10damage nerf cause they are the most imbalanced class over there in terms of damage. That's why u see half servers full of rogues...
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
Is it just me, or does anyone find the title a little dirty:
...Rogues Taking it From Behind...
--
Michael
I really do not understand how they can not see a problem with one class in full plate, with tons of heals... and auras and group buffs.. that also is one of the biggest dps classes? Kind of All in one, and.. no that is not a problem... 6-7000 dps from a healer class in plate is ok... but a dps class without any other skills.. no that we need to look at.
Oh well, at least they are consistent in their thinking. Never look at the real problem.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
Theres the expected number of posts here along the lines of 'I got 'ganked' by a rogue once, I'm glad Blizzard are nerfing them', but ignoring those and focusing on the PVE, the main problem I can see is that there are some excellent players (of all classes) out there who outshine others in dps and it seems that this minority is the ones that Blizzard notice more and make their nerf plans around. Personally I was 'average' but others I grouped with could really do some damage. I don't really see why this is an issue for pve though, although I do know that too many people focus more on the dps meter than on the actual dungeon encounters (dps whoring locks and mages from my experience).
Another problem I see is that they seem to base the data on people in full uber-epic gear/weapon sets, which is unfair to those less fortunate in raiding. Not a lot you can do about that in a game that focuses so heavily on loot.
Rogues being a pure dps class are supposed to do awesome dps..if they can't dps, what can they do? Stand around in IF/Dal opening lockboxes for kicks?
As for pvp, well I am not too selfish to know when I've just been owned by a skilled player, and cry about it. Instead of going straight on Blizzards forum complaining about Overpowered <insert class name here>, treat it as a learning experience and see what YOU can do to stop it happening less in the future. Or cancel your account.
Common sense is not a Sixth sense
Given the hysterical focus on recount dps readings and other such, its hardly surprising that Blizzard would yet again be swinging their nerf bat around. No doubt the cloth wearers have been whining even more than usual about rogues.
But to focus on protect spec warriors... In PvP no less, shows just how petty Blizzard can become.
its crazy that people think each class should be no stronger than any other, i think the strengths/weaknesses of each class should be unique, so rogues do high 'explosive' dps, well, thats not exactly unreasonable.. likewise.. hunters have flare+mark, which usually = dead rogue.. the 'rock paper scissors' balance is viable imo..
No mmorpg has had perfect balance, World of Warcraft has had the best by far though. I myself never see a problem in PVP : Kill anyone with any class.
The classes are different, as such they can not be balanced to 100%. Some classes are always a bit stronger, others a bit weaker. Especially when Blizzard has to focus on PvE first to make sure the classes ain't overpowered there. And even more so since abilities are added over time and new content is released. Sometimes a class is stronger, sometimes a class is weaker. Complaining about that really makes no sense.
The WoW PvPers complaining about that remind me somehow on a bunch of old fishermen in the age of 80, who still go every 12 hours "oooooh here comes the ebb tide again! Oh no, stupid ebb tide, when will they fix it!!", just to shout some hours later "Hurray they fixed it. Oh wait, what's coming there? The flood tide! Oh noeeees what should we do?!? Let's stop fishing and become miners until this water is fixed!".
I mean Blizzard is tweaking those classes since about half a decade. Shouting "nerf rouges!!!!111" (or any other class) will probably not help them a lot. Sometimes your class is due to a patch a bit stronger, sometimes a bit weaker. I'm not saying that thought out criticism is bad, I'm just saying: stop hoping for the classes to be ever completly balanced. It's the wrong game for that. And in the long run it doesn't matter.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
No mmorpg has had perfect balance, World of Warcraft has had the best by far though. I myself never see a problem in PVP : Kill anyone with any class.
the PVP aspect in WOW is very much team based, the trouble is, that not everyone is actually that good at playing the game as part of a team, the tendency to go 'rambo' or at least to try ... well, the most successful players are the ones that work together, regardless of class, and no amount of 'balancing' will change that, i can imagine quite a few of the gripes are from players, or ex-players, who found the ability to work as part of a group, challenging...
Been a rogue, played arena at ~2,1k rating 3on3 (not rpm), left somewhere in the middle of 2009. There is way more ridicilous shit than rogue dps. Less dps means that you're just more likely to die first in pvp while vanish bug and several other flaws still exist (for example players going 100%-0% in 1sec through rng). If the next Addon keeps that quality i won't touch wow anymore.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
So after totally ratf***ing the game balance (and making the game damn near unrecognizable to the game they started with) by trying to appease the arena duel whores, they have decided to keep up the vicious cycle. Gee thanks Blizzard keep up the great work.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Thanks Blizzard, one more reason not to return to Azeroth!
all these people complaining, i wonder if they played during the days of world of roguecraft and i wonder how little sympathy the old school players that were around beta/release will have for them.
Haha, Blizz is gonna stick it in you! I wonder what the new FOTM will be?
"Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome."
To all those idiots that love to post without knowing any facts, this is not a nerf based on PVP at all. Nor is this game world of roguecraft anymore. Rogue are a very underplayed class, the changes made in 3.3 were not somehting that eveyone saw and made rogue FoTM. Kinda hard to have that anymore with 80 lvls to drudge through and blizz making balance changes CONSTANTLY now, not once every large patch.
What happened was that blizz made a change to how deadly posion worked, to ive rogues and increase in PVE damage without effecting PVP. Deadly posion now when stacked to 5 will make your other posion proc when it procs, that way you are wasting procs and having to use weapon switching macros. Also, deep in assassanation, master posioner allows you to use envenom without losing your deadly poison stacks.
Basically what this did was allow combat to get massive and constant instant poison procs, greatly increasing their damage in raids, and assassanation got boosted even more. Reason being their rotation got much more simple. Now all they have to do is get one SnD off, and then pop envenom on every 4-5 CP. No longer do they ahve to worry about keeping rupture up. So even bad rogue could achieve great numbers now.
Whats sad, is the ghostcrawler came out and said the inflated numbers where because of a couple fights that favored melee DPS, yet the next day, the nerfed. This comes after the 5% reduction to HFB that happened right after 3.3 launched. Now another reduction by 5% and you have the most pointless 51 point talant in all of wow. A 5% increase in damage for 1 minute against a target that is bleeding. Are you kidding me!!! On top of that, they nerfed posions, so it didnt just hurt Assassanation, it urt combat, and it bleeds into PVP, where there wasnt a problem.
Those are the facts, think of them what you will. My hope is this will get read and stop the idiotic PVP excuse of rogues being OP. Damage was def a little high after the changes, i dont think anyone would say a small change wasnt needed, but this was a bit much. And they made a borring 51 pointer, a joke.
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
LOL that's about it.
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
They really need to make up their mind with HFB, since WOTLK hit, it has been changed and changed again. I would roll combat if it was more interesting then auto attack. Rogues are an underplayed class anymore, that you are correct about, most of the people complaining probably haven't played in a few years.
The PvP complaints about rogues are due to failure to understand how to beat us. I play more then Rogue and I have not one problem beating them on any of my alts. It's a matter of forcing the rogue to blow his CDs more then anything, something most people have no clue how to do.
There are 30 different talent specs that the classes can obtain. It is much more than just 10 classes.
Then there is all the different incarnations of pve and pvp. All games have balance issues as that is something that happens when games evolve.
Rogue damage is high, but I think it should be all things considered. Melee range, lack of buffs, survivability, etc.
Couldn't agree more with the final line. Not to mention having to shift to another target mid fight only to lose all combo points and having to reset your entire rotation because SnD dropped off and/or you couldn't get a Envenom off to refresh it . I can only speak for Assassination spec though. WTB 1min CD ability to move combo points to another target....
Agree with this very much. Someone must have been crying like a little baby that they got beat by a PURE DPS class.
Says the rogue. There are 4 pure DPS classes. Mage/Warlock/Hunter and Rogue. No one of those should ever, under any circumstance, dominate the charts for straight DPS. This isn't a matter of whether the class can or cannot bring buffs, if they're always in melee, what their survival is, etc. The simple fact is, PVE balance isn't based around what you bring to the table anymore in terms of buffs. The devs on countless occasions have said this. They also said they don't want each class performing equally on any boss. Rogues did too much damage. Hunters, mages, and warlocks especially couldn't compete with Rogue damage. Especially given how retardedly simple the rogue rotation is, of Garrote->HFB->Muti->S&D->muti til 5, envenom, muti til 5, envenom, rinse repeat keeping HFB up as necessary.
Combine that with every escape, control, and utility the rogue has, including the ever-awesome misdirect advanced that is Tricks of the Trade, and the rogue brings more than enough utility to sit in fourth place on more than their share of fights.
The nerf was necessary, and rogues are still out of line, even with the nerf.
To me, it sounds like this entire string of quotes is just a bunch of rogues that didn't know what they were doing to begin with that got a much-needed nerf to the class, and hopefully not the last to boot.
Assassination already has 40% haste perma-on after the opening few seconds, with HFB nearly so just behind it. The rotation is already stupidly simple, and the class is far from hurting, even after the nerfs. If you think rogues honestly have it bad, go play a feral druid and cry yourself to sleep on how horrible a rotation they have, then complain about your bad dps with only 1 buff to actively need to recharge.
This.
seriously... did you even think before writing this down... rogues have NO utility in a raid
WARRIOR - can tank, Battle or commanding shout is always welcomed - wear plate, thus easier to heal
PALLY- healer, tank ,dps... plus they have blessings.
SHAMAN - again another hybrid.. but BL alone will make u more than worthy
PRIEST- heal . stam buff . you are ranged
DK - can tank. wear plate
LOCK - range dps. soulstone, portal..
HUNTER - range dps, tranq shot, traps..
MAGE -food, buff, spellsteal, range dps...
DRUID - battle rez... and there's just too much to type for this one.
Rogue- trick of trade....ummm......LOL. thats all.
Now tell me, why the hell would you bring a rogue in any raid if he is the most fragile melee dps, and doesnt bring anything of value to the raid except his dps?
soz for rant.
My old WoW guild was a 350 member raid guild, and one of the top 3 Horde raid guilds on the server, in progression. (We bounced between the second and third spot.) Know how many rogues we had?
TWO.
I think that pretty much says it all about a raid's "need".....for rogues.
Rogues, at least on my old server, were pretty much considered just a PvP class.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
When I quit the rotation was a bit different, HFB x3 and a few minor changes, meaning one minor slip or switch of the target required almost 30 secs of catch up if things didn't go as planned. You can't really blame the Rogue for blizzard simplifying the rotation. Would be nice if blizzard could find a balance in DPS, but it's impossible and will never happen. After these new "minor" changes there will be another class being far to powerful (because complaining about your team makes sense, right?) and people will complain, it's a vicious cycle. It's rather silly you use the word "compete" when it all boils down to being grouped, being a team to accomplish a goal, the very same goal.
Btw, when I did quit locks were pulling over 10K dps with a rather simple rotation, hunters were not far behind. Blame the one making the changes, not the players.
This just goes to show you that no MMORPG, regardless of how well made it is, can ever balance classes for PvP or PvE. There are simply too many variables including gear, specs and abilities not to mention the ingenuity of players who can and will exploit the game design.
Class balance is like the Holy Grail of MMORPG design. Look for it and you will not find it, try to grasp it and it will slip through your fingers. The truth is that class balance doesn't exist. It never has and never will. All of those players who rant, rage and scream for such a thing, are as clueless as the knights of old who gave their lives for nothing more than an impossible dream.
Actually when you think about it WOW should be one of the easiest MMO's to implement balance in PVP due to the fact that it mainly takes place in instances. I would think that a real easy way would be that when a person queues up for a battleground they are automatically given a preselected gear and weapon score for their class regardless of what they have equipped . From what I've come across in my years of playing the game its not so much the spec that a player has but the gear that they are able to use in those battlegrounds that helps to make them rather invincible.