Excellent, excellent, excellent article and LOOOONG overdue here. I have been hearing each and everyone of those tired-ass excuses from the FBs in order to justify a crappy game since I first joined these forums.
My current favorite: #8 It's an indy game We've all heard this one many times when a game from a new studio, or one without the financial backing of a major publisher gets into the world of making games. I am personally a huge proponent of independent MMOs because that is where a great deal of the innovation in our industry is going to come from. The problem with many indy games is that, in many areas, they often do not line up well side by side with their AAA counterparts, prompting heavy criticism, and staunch defense. While I agree that indy games need to be viewed as such, and their status needs to be taken into account when discussing the pros and cons of the game, the fact remains that indy MMOs often charge the same fees as AAA MMOs, which is what often prompts the attacks on the game in the first place. In short, if you don't want to be treated as an equal to AAA games, don't make me pay for your game like it was one.
I have been hearing this about Fallen Earth for months now and my main contention is and will be: If their Indy and dont have the capital atm to make major improvements, they need to stop charging TOP DOLLAR like the WOW's of the world.
See....the only problem with your statement (highlighted in orange) is that FE is a great MMO for those of us that love it, have NO problem paying the same price for it as other "AAA" titles (which could simply mean as LITTLE as a big company with a lot of money pumps out a piece of shit game...*cough*AoC*cough*....and therefore we must call it a "AAA" title). And there are other titles I could add here besides AoC. Big money doesn't always translate into a game that I personally would enjoy. In the same context..."little" money, doesn't always mean I won't love a game, either. And the "AAA" title thing....doesn't mean jack crap to me.
I would gladly pay TWICE as much for FE before I would pay one dollar a month to play AoC.
Icarus doesn't "need to stop charging 'TOP DOLLAR.'" There are a lot of us paying it because we LIKE the game. What "needs" to happen, is the people that don't like it...."need" to just not play it. It's really that simple. Or maybe, since the "WoW's of the World" are such superior games, they "need" to raise their prices. Pffft. Why would Icarus charge one dime less than they do, when they have people GLADLY paying to play? That is illogical.
Futher, I would wonder if you, by firsthand knowledge, know ANY of the major improvements that HAVE been made to the game, or are presently BEING made to the game. Those of us that pay to play it....we're well aware of what's going on in FE.
Thats YOUR personal opinion, not mine so theres really no debating it. The question is not to debate if FE is a "AAA" game "to some" gamers like you, I am specifically talking about the excuse commonly made for "Indy" games, which FE definitely is. I have heard that excuse about FE's bugs, poor support and general crappiness since I raised any questions about the game after playing through beta and to S2. So you may want to take up the "AAA" debate with the people on the FE forums that have constanly used the #8 defense on numerous occasions.
Whether or not FE has made any improvements is irrelevant to this discussion. Feel free to debate back on the FE forums though all you want, I wont be debating it here. THis is one of the BEST darn articles I have read on these forums in a long time and I prefer to stay on topic. And if you really dont like this thread...maybe it's just not for you.
I have seen many of those things...not only from players but from the developers themselves....
I wont even mention the games i have quit becasue of those same remarks and how bad the game is.....becasue that is a fairly large list.
On thing though...my advice i have gained form many games....and thats for people who ever hear that phrase:
The game gets better after 20+ levels or the character type you play gets better at 20+ levels.....
ok if you here that dont belive it...change your character immediately and also do not ever pay attention to any forum post or advice those people have who says things like that.....they will make your game play horrible and they have no clue.
For people who have alot of experience and have run across those people...they know what i am refering to....
oh one missed comment......
if you play a character and you are not having fun and you start running into people who say the character is great on teams only...ditch the character....its not worth the time....and you will not be satisfied....of course you might want to try for your self first...as i find so many people come up with ideas and tell everyone they have to play something that way.....that most people have no idea what other skills use.....or even if there are other options.
i like the "Fun starts after level x" quote. I have heard that so many times about FF11 and i thought the same thing...they don't care about the starting people...or something along those lines. Also, WOW haters. Look i tried WOW 4-5 times over a 2 year period and never made it past level 15. Its just not my thing but i see the game for what it is and that is a very well put together game with lots of spit and polish and lots of voice acting...sorry for the run-on. I wasn't all for Jade Dynasty either so maybe i have issues?
Don't forget the mother of all defenses. It's got potential! I'm gonna drop $60.00 to support defenses 10, 9, 8, 3, and 2 because I can see the game has potential and will eventually someday live up to its potential!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
#5 If you don't like it, GTFO This one is a classic and falls on the irrational and childish side of the fence in terms of different methods that can be used when defending an MMO. I see it really quite often, but could never really wrap my head around it. Basically it's like saying: Either agree with me or keep your mouth shut.
To all of the people who use this particular phrase, whether it's referring to MMOs or to anything else for that matter: If your argument is so weak that you can't back it up in any way other than to tell someone to GTFO, maybe it's time to re-examine your belief.
So, either follow my advice, or GTFO.
I have to disagree to some degree here.
Often this is a response to somebody in a forum (or even in game...ANY game) who has come specifically to a forum for a game they have deemed unworthy of their time for whatever (possibly entirely legitimate) reason. Fine...not all games are for everyone. But did you really need to seek out a forum specifically dedicated to the discussion of a game that you have decided you don't like just to spew your passionate dislike for the game? It's like walking into a police station and shouting "I hate cops!" or a <insert ethnic-style> restaurant and proclaiming loudly that "<Said ethnic-style> food tastes like cr*p!" What kind of response did you expect? Giving someone this response doesn't necessarily imply childishness on the part of the speaker, it's entirely possible it is indicative of a response to the childishness of the original criticism.
Admittedly, a response like this to well thought-out constructive criticism or an effort to generate genuine discussion about some issue doesn't deserve a response like this, but we all know that those things are about as common on the internet as <insert item> dropped by <insert boss name> in <insert zone name> in <insert game name>.
"Ignorance begets confidence more often than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin "It is far easier to be critical than to be correct." - Benjamin Disreali "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain
I have to disagree to some degree here. Often this is a response to somebody in a forum (or even in game...ANY game) who has come specifically to a forum for a game they have deemed unworthy of their time for whatever (possibly entirely legitimate) reason. Fine...not all games are for everyone. But did you really need to seek out a forum specifically dedicated to the discussion of a game that you have decided you don't like just to spew your passionate dislike for the game? It's like walking into a police station and shouting "I hate cops!" or a <insert ethnic-style> restaurant and proclaiming loudly that "<Said ethnic-style> food tastes like cr*p!" What kind of response did you expect? Giving someone this response doesn't necessarily imply childishness on the part of the speaker, it's entirely possible it is indicative of a response to the childishness of the original criticism. Admittedly, a response like this to well thought-out constructive criticism or an effort to generate genuine discussion about some issue doesn't deserve a response like this, but we all know that those things are about as common on the internet as <insert item> dropped by <insert boss name> in <insert zone name> in <insert game name>.
And with all due respect, I must disagree. In the majority I have seen persons come into a games forum and voice displeasure by providing the reasons for such. There may be several reasons they do this: 1. they want to vent (after all they did spend money on the game and maybe are a little POed that their expectations werent met, 2. they want the developers to take heed of what they are saying and/or 3. they would at least like some feedback from the rest of the players, maybe they missed something that another player could point out. Whatever the reason, when I see the "If you dont like it GTFO" line it is usually when the fanboi CANNOT provide either a good explanation/defense of the game and/or the complainer has out argued/reasoned/debated the fanboi and the fanboi is left at a loss of offensive argument and just says in fustration the infamous "if you dont like it, GTFO".
If someone has a legitamate counter-argument, or can shut down the displeased purchaser with logic and reason, the #5 defense is RARELY or EVER used. It is only when they cannot that it is. One of the things I have discovered being on MMORPG.com is that people will play a game regardless of its defects, bugs, and any other fault if they really love it. I cannot see how this can be, but many people do, They dont only defend the game they actually convinve them selves that the games issues are minor and then proceed to project that to any other player that is not as IN LOVE with the game as they are. Simply put I have come to see that peoples standards are very different and if someone really really likes a game (or even the potential of it) they will find a way to keep playing it. Therefore there is really no purpose of arguing with them.
And with all due respect, I must disagree. In the majority I have seen persons come into a games forum and voice displeasure by providing the reasons for such. There may be several reasons they do this: 1. they want to vent (after all they did spend money on the game and maybe are a little POed that their expectations werent met, 2. they want the developers to take heed of what they are saying and/or 3. they would at least like some feedback from the rest of the players, maybe they missed something that another player could point out. Whatever the reason, when I see the "If you dont like it GTFO" line it is usually when the fanboi CANNOT provide either a good explanation/defense of the game and/or the complainer has out argued/reasoned/debated the fanboi and the fanboi is left at a loss of offensive argument and just says in fustration the infamous "if you dont like it, GTFO".
If someone has a legitamate counter-argument, or can shut down the displeased purchaser with logic and reason, the #5 defense is RARELY or EVER used. It is only when they cannot that it is. One of the things I have discovered being on MMORPG.com is that people will play a game regardless of its defects, bugs, and any other fault if they really love it. I cannot see how this can be, but many people do, They dont only defend the game they actually convinve them selves that the games issues are minor and then proceed to project that to any other player that is not as IN LOVE with the game as they are. Simply put I have come to see that peoples standards are very different and if someone really really likes a game (or even the potential of it) they will find a way to keep playing it. Therefore there is really no purpose of arguing with them.
Okay, granted. However, I must not have made myself clear enough. I was only stating that sometimes it seems like people come to a forum which is specifically dedicated to a particular game merely to "hate on it" which is completely and utterly unproductive. If one hates WoW (which, btw, I don't, but neither have I played it for a year and a half or so...just using the biggest target as an example), why is one in the WoW forum in the first place? My experience (on the MMORPG.com forums most in particularly, which is why I typically spend so little time on them) is that most peoples' idea of a well thought-out criticism to a game is "<Insert game name> is GHEY!!" and I don't blame someone for responding with a "GTFO!" because the OP isn't going to debate the finer points of the combat system or the crafting mechanics or whatever. They are just gonna troll....and why should anyone, as the supposed "defenders" of said game, try to elicit an intelligent response from such a troll?
It was not my intention to support responding to people in such a way and, frankly, would never do so myself. Just not my style and I agree it is a childish response....just not necessarily for the same reasons as the author of the article states. And, as I stated, I absolutely believe that constructive criticism and well thought-out posts which are critical of a game should be welcomed and responded to appropriately and you are making the assumption that that is what people who are being responded to in such a way are doing. However, those people are the exception to the rule it seems to and the preponderance of "If you don't like it, GTFO!"s are almost undoubtedly, IMO, aimed at those who aren't presenting constructive criticism, but merely trolls with nothing better to do but proclaim that the fans of the game at which they are directing their ire are lame/gay/autistic/inbred/knuckle-dragging mouth breathers/etc etc.
But, then again, I'm so fed up with the attitude of so many in the MMO community that I tend to just steer clear of it entirely. I'll play whatever I happen to be playing and mostly keep my head down and enjoy what I can of it. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky and intolerant, eh?
"Ignorance begets confidence more often than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin "It is far easier to be critical than to be correct." - Benjamin Disreali "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain
I actually think number 9 is a valid defense. Honestly. People tend to judge the quality of new games by the quality of current games. I mean, can anyone name 2 or more p2p games that had a really good launch and didnt have plenty of bugs? And if you say WoW, you either didn't play at launch or your memory isnt working as it should
Games like eve, wow, lotro and other that have been out for years have obviously had alot more time to fix the problems. I makes me a little sad to see how impatient people are. They basicly try the game for a month and if they see more bugs then the game they played before (which might have been out for 5 years) they will return there. It's unrealistic to expect a game thats not even a month old to have the same polish as a game that has been out for several years.
Enjoyed the list, even if i didn't really agree with everything you said ;P
I actually think number 9 is a valid defense. Honestly. People tend to judge the quality of new games by the quality of current games. I mean, can anyone name 2 or more p2p games that had a really good launch and didnt have plenty of bugs? And if you say WoW, you either didn't play at launch or your memory isnt working as it should
I don't think it is about comparing how each game was to each other at release, but rather a game launching incomplete and expecting to attract players away from what the market currently has to offer.
It doesn't matter how a game today is compared to another mmo that released 5 years ago, because they are both competing for our subscription dollars today. If a game launches incomplete then comparing it to something 5-10 years previous doesn't really make it a better option that what is currently available.
I think that is why #9 talked about being complete and not about being buggy.
I loved both the "reasons to love MMO X" and the "reasons to hate MMO X", and I have heard every single one of them while playing WoW.
I suspect "Go back to WoW" was being used ironically in that context, however.
Yet, the problem here sometimes really does amount to GTFO, usually in the form of "If you hate the game so much, why are you continuing to play?" And when a person fails to give a coherent answer, or, indeed, any sort of answer to this question, yes, that's the point where I hit the /ignore button because they either simply want attention or they're a Troll, neither of which did I pay my $15 per month in order to hear.
With regard to the "What Is Grind" question from the "reasons to hate" list:
Good answer, Tedium Onset is an excellent summary.
In my specific case, my personal definition for Grind is when I run into the situation where the Quests available are either too hard to do on my own (I'm not really the core demographic for MMO games, preferring to solo as much as possible), forcing me into the position where the only thing I can do (in order to get to the higher levels where available quests will be easy enough to solo) is to go find monsters I can kill and then kill as many as I can for XP until I level how-ever-many-I-must to get back to the fun soloing part.
The reason I give my particular definition for the term is because as far as I am aware, there is only this one definition for Grind, and if I give my definition and other definitions are made available, perhaps there will be a later article on the various definitions for Tedium Onset so game companies can perhaps learn to stamp out this vicious thing they are all propagating.
Every one of us would feel that the 10 defences are very reasonable when it is in such a distilled state. We will all start arguing when we start talking about a specific game, and then all hell broke loose, everyone using the same 10 and feel hostile b/c someone else use the same 10 to disagree.
The seeming majority of people that started playing mmorpg's thru WoW does have a shitty attitude vs other mmorpg games and are often immature and honestly not very experienced.
They expect all mmorpg games that listen to their players to buttlick them all night long which is not the case unless your company is named Blizzard.
Sorry mates but its a fact and im not the only one feeling this way. Thats why i play Fallen Earth! =D
I agree, while slightly childish to say, #1 is perfectly acceptable.
And actually, if the truth be told its what they say and do as a matter of fact.
We all know that initial sales of an MMO are huge!.. take a look at Aion, but after the first month there is a 95% fall out - where do you think these people are going?... you got it, "back to wow"
Though to be fair, your article is completly deplorable and inaccurate, I think its the first 'troll' article I've ever read. The title of the article is about reasons for "defending an MMO"... but since when does "go back to wow" become a 'defense' for a game?.. since its quite the opposite.
As are some of your other reasons listed, they are not defences of a game they are more like common replys to complaints and the whole article reads as if your are... ranting.
My first reaction to reading your list was "just because you don't like their argument, doesn't make it cliche". The old adage of "arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics" applies here clearly. My thoughts on your list:
10. I'ts in beta - If you're on the beta forums, ranting that the gam sucks, then this is the only answer you deserve. The game is in beta. You are not paying to play it. It's like standing outside a building site for a building that's not done and shouting that it sucks. Of course it sucks, it's not done. Unfinished things always suck. Now I grant that betas these days are more previews than actual tests, and more and more beta devs are requiring you to pre-order to beta, but so what? Don't pre-order and you're not paying money or exposed to unfinished games. "I choose to put myself through misery and then I choose to rant about how miserable it is! I choose to pay money for a product I *KNOW* isn't done, then I choose to whine loudly about how much it's not done!!" Yeah, good luck with that.
9. It'll be complete in six months - No MMO is ever "complete", we pay for them to be developed. If you're yelling on a forum about how an MMO's not finished, you need to go back to WoW :P
8. It's an indy game - Yes, which means they don't have the budget to meet your expectations. And if you pay WoW prices for an Indy game, you're already making a huge mistake, why compound it by logging into their forums and ranting about it? You download a free trial, you play for a week, you see it's Indy, and you leave. If you put money down, especially on an Indy game that's not released, then I've swampland to sell you.
7. You're Nothing But a Troll / Hater - If you are on the devs forums, ranting about the game like you hate it, then you *ARE* a Troll. I don't go into McDonalds and scream at them that they don't serve McEggrolls. The game is how the game is, and if you don't like it, GTFO, seriously. Stop paying, stop playing, stop trolling, go do something else. If you don't, then that means you *LIKE* yelling on forums, paying for games you hate, and being a troll. Not rocket science here. I don't pay for a subscription to Popular Knitting, because I don't like Knitting. I'm not going to buy the magazine then write letters to the editor every month about how it doesn't have articles on MMO's.
6. You're obviously a paid shill for Company X - Yeah, this one's just stupid, but likely the person it's said to is just as much a moron.
5. If you don't like it, GTFO - Seriously. Dr, Dr, it hurts when I do that! Then STOP DOING THAT. It's not about the argument, it's not about any salient points. If you are on the devs forums, yelling about how much the game sucks, then you can only have 2 possible reasons for doing it: You hope and pray the devs will see your screaming and change the game to suit your needs (very likely won't happen), or you LIKE YELLING. In either case, STFU and GTFO. There's no arguing with you, so there's no point I can make to change your mind. The fact that you're there yelling at all tells me you're not rational. I'm not on the Eve forums ranting about how much I hate PvP and I wish they'd stop. I voted with my dollar. That's what rational people do. They don't scream at the top of their lungs about impossible solutions to ridiculous problems.
4. The fun starts after level X - Classic MMO strat, sadly. Sorry you don't like it. The fun in WoW starts at 60, erm 70, I mean 80, I mean 85. The fun in CoH never starts. It's bad design that is likely not going to change, but feel free to yell about it on the forums, because THAT always solves problems.
3. This game is X, it was never intended to be Y - Usually true, actually. Eve is PvP, it was never intended to be PvE. If I wanted it to be PvE, that's all about me. No amount of yelling is going to change that. If I camped the Eve forums ranting about this, this would be the answer I'd get, they'd be right, I'd be wrong. LRN2Demographic.
2. This game isn't for everyone - This is the same as #3, LRN2Demographic. Devs pick an audience (hopefully) and write to it. If you're not in it, then you're not in it. You can't scream yourself into it. Go stand in McDonalds and scream for Chinese food, see how well that goes. If it's not for you, it's not for you, STFU GTFO.
1. Go back to WoW - Wow, your responses to this show you have no clue why people say this to you at all There are a LOT of reasons why people say this that have nothing to do with what you said.
MMO XXX is too hard, I want it simpler....WoW is simple, go back and play WoW
Everyone has played WoW, it's the classic catch-all answer to "go back to your Mom's MMO"
You're referencing WoW in your post, like "WoW has quests like this, why can't this?", which leads to the answer "if you like WoW so much, go back to it"
There are lots of reasons people refer to Wow, not the least that it's a behemoth that has more players than every other domestic MMO combined.
Back to my original point, arguing at all on the interwebs is pointless. If you see someone with a position different than yours, feel free to make a comment, but if you don't like their reply, walk away. You can't win, and even if you do....see the special olympics comment above. Just walk away. He's allowed to be wrong, just like you are.
(DDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH raises plunger salute to Stradden for great article)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Ahem.... "#2 This game isn't for everyone This is another one of those sometimes good and sometimes bad defenses of a game. I mean, on the surface, it makes sense. The MMO genre is so big these days that every game is going after its own little niche part of the market. They aren't really being made anymore to try to appeal to everyone (cause that worked so well in the past), there should be an assumption that not every person is going to like every game. (yeah, maybe there should be...but there's not.)
Problem here is, Jon....some idiots really DO assume that every game should cater to THEIR personal desires for a game. They have a really hard time fathoming that this game...the one they're playing the trial for...might just be made for people who like a different kind of game than they do. They don't understand that they are not the center of the gaming universe, and that their preferences for gaming...are not worldwide views....
Frankly...I don't give a shit if I'm paying for and playing a game that I enjoy, if Joe Suckme logs in and "Oooo waaaah" doesn't like it. After all....we don't have fast travel, or brightly colored bikini clad nightelves dancing on mailboxes, or auto attack, or a diagram of how to most quickly get to max level and "endgame" (and yes...I have seen ACTUAL serious complaints about things like this). So you know what.....
If the game you're playing a trial of is NOT the game for you, for whaever reason you have in your mind.....is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to broadcast that complaint of yours to the entirety of the server, before you log off having never paid one DIME for the privilege of annoying everyone?? Really? Reeeeally?
The problem is that I so often see this defense used in a dismissive way.
And why...exactly....should we NOT be dismissive to someone that demands every game made must cater to their own personal whims? Yes, please do explain this. Because after the 10th time I hear from the SAME person how "this game sux, I can't auto target," or whatever their gripe of this particular hour is (that I will get to hear them say now repeatedly until NEXT hour's pet gripe) and yet they STILL are playing and polluting the public chat with stupidity....I start feeling a little... dismissive. And I don't think that's abnormal.....
People write these words when what they really mean is: "You're stupid. This game is for smart people who think exactly like me. You're too dumb to see that so GTFO." You know....sometimes this first part of this (the highlighted part)... IS actually the reason a game isn't "for" some people. There definitely ARE gamers that find EVE and Fallen Earth (those two in particular) "confusing" and have trouble with the most simple things like....oh....READING....or mousing over an object and reading to see what it says. Sure, the learning curve in those games is a bit steeper than in others, MAYBE.
But when the game "inconveniences" them so....and then they begin to spam public channels with whines that sound like a cat in heat....that is different. And Jon....you think this isn't enough reason to say to them, "You know...maybe this game just isn't for you"......?? I do draw the line at "GTFO," simply because it's rude. And there are some people that WANT to learn how to play (it's pretty easy to discern who those people are, however, by the WAY they ask questions...they're generally not prefaced by "dis game sux ballz"), I'm not talking about those people that just need a nudge in the right direction.
Seriously....there really ARE games that require effort above what some players are willing (or sometimes ABLE) to take. And if they've made that perfectly clear....I see no problem whatsoever with telling them that perhaps another game would please them more. They want to be happy...I want them to be happy. I want them to be happy in another game where I'm not going to have to listen to hours on end of why "Game X" is so much better than this game (even though...they're not playing Super Dooper Game X anymore).
That particular way of using this defense actually brings us right back to #5, and I think I made it quite clear how I feel about that." Where I would draw the line, as I said, is taking THIS defense into the unnecessary length of rudely saying, "If you don't like it, GTFO." Yes...I might FEEL like saying that, but it isn't very helpful. I have said things similar to that, but markedly less rude...like saying that a game isn't for everyone....that is TRUE of any game from WoW to Hello Kitty to AoC to Darkfall and everything in between. I just dont' see the issue here...
Rawr!~
Spot on.
I think I'm in love.
Great article and the only exception I think is valid in many situations is I the one girlgeek so eloquently spoke about.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
#5 is totally over used. So is #1 so I agree with that. Totally true that they couldn't come up with any decent argument so they just use #1. Not to mention many people using that argument fail hardcore in that they ASSUME you even play WoW or even like WoW to begin with.
#5 is a pretty stupid defense. It's rude like you said and sometimes maybe they actually DO have a point and aren't just whining?
"Seeking professional troll. Must hate everything and have unpleasant social skills. Being a douchebag is an asset, but not required."
That's easy. Talk radio DJ.
I like how folks think game devs have the money to pay people to do stuff like this on top of all the front loaded debt you have when you make an MMO in the first place...
That usually precedes or follows: "You must have no life if you have all this time to come to a forum to bash X game", as though having all that time to come to a forum to DEFEND X game somehow doesn't warrant the same assumption.
We've all heard this one before in a thread where one person is complaining that the game is no fun after a few hours of gameplay: "Don't worry man, the game gets fun after about 20 levels."
Actually, I'd say that was the case for every MMO I played before pre-cu SWG. It would also explain why I went back to MUD's until that time.
I'm going to be honest, I really like this defense of a game. Often times, people will jump into some forum or another and rag on an MMO for not being a certain kind of game, most often for not being a sandbox.
And thus, the reason most developers don't make sandbox games, any more. Who wants to cater to a demographic of people who gauge their fun on whether they can call a game an "X" type of game or not? They'd rather cater to people who want a game to be fun, whether it happens to be "X" type of game or not.
People write these words when what they really mean is: "You're stupid. This game is for smart people who think exactly like me. You're too dumb to see that so GTFO." You know....sometimes this first part of this (the highlighted part)... IS actually the reason a game isn't "for" some people. There definitely ARE gamers that find EVE and Fallen Earth (those two in particular) "confusing" and have trouble with the most simple things like....oh....READING....or mousing over an object and reading to see what it says. Sure, the learning curve in those games is a bit steeper than in others, MAYBE.
There's some perfect examples of this. A few weeks back there was a thread ripping LotRO for having a bunch of quest text; called something like, "tired of having to read all this stupid quest text" or something like that.
For LotRO. A lore heavy, story driven MMO.
As I mentioned before, people complain about LotRO not being ffa PvP, or being able to be a monster player anywhere in middle earth.
Sometimes, "this game is not for you" means:
"This game is not for you, and if you haven't figured that out by now, YOU'RE STUPID.".
Comments
Hehe.
Great article.
One of the best articles in a long time, now go back to WoW!
See....the only problem with your statement (highlighted in orange) is that FE is a great MMO for those of us that love it, have NO problem paying the same price for it as other "AAA" titles (which could simply mean as LITTLE as a big company with a lot of money pumps out a piece of shit game...*cough*AoC*cough*....and therefore we must call it a "AAA" title). And there are other titles I could add here besides AoC. Big money doesn't always translate into a game that I personally would enjoy. In the same context..."little" money, doesn't always mean I won't love a game, either. And the "AAA" title thing....doesn't mean jack crap to me.
I would gladly pay TWICE as much for FE before I would pay one dollar a month to play AoC.
Icarus doesn't "need to stop charging 'TOP DOLLAR.'" There are a lot of us paying it because we LIKE the game. What "needs" to happen, is the people that don't like it...."need" to just not play it. It's really that simple. Or maybe, since the "WoW's of the World" are such superior games, they "need" to raise their prices. Pffft. Why would Icarus charge one dime less than they do, when they have people GLADLY paying to play? That is illogical.
Futher, I would wonder if you, by firsthand knowledge, know ANY of the major improvements that HAVE been made to the game, or are presently BEING made to the game. Those of us that pay to play it....we're well aware of what's going on in FE.
Thats YOUR personal opinion, not mine so theres really no debating it. The question is not to debate if FE is a "AAA" game "to some" gamers like you, I am specifically talking about the excuse commonly made for "Indy" games, which FE definitely is. I have heard that excuse about FE's bugs, poor support and general crappiness since I raised any questions about the game after playing through beta and to S2. So you may want to take up the "AAA" debate with the people on the FE forums that have constanly used the #8 defense on numerous occasions.
Whether or not FE has made any improvements is irrelevant to this discussion. Feel free to debate back on the FE forums though all you want, I wont be debating it here. THis is one of the BEST darn articles I have read on these forums in a long time and I prefer to stay on topic. And if you really dont like this thread...maybe it's just not for you.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
excellent articale and thread.
I have seen many of those things...not only from players but from the developers themselves....
I wont even mention the games i have quit becasue of those same remarks and how bad the game is.....becasue that is a fairly large list.
On thing though...my advice i have gained form many games....and thats for people who ever hear that phrase:
The game gets better after 20+ levels or the character type you play gets better at 20+ levels.....
ok if you here that dont belive it...change your character immediately and also do not ever pay attention to any forum post or advice those people have who says things like that.....they will make your game play horrible and they have no clue.
For people who have alot of experience and have run across those people...they know what i am refering to....
oh one missed comment......
if you play a character and you are not having fun and you start running into people who say the character is great on teams only...ditch the character....its not worth the time....and you will not be satisfied....of course you might want to try for your self first...as i find so many people come up with ideas and tell everyone they have to play something that way.....that most people have no idea what other skills use.....or even if there are other options.
i like the "Fun starts after level x" quote. I have heard that so many times about FF11 and i thought the same thing...they don't care about the starting people...or something along those lines. Also, WOW haters. Look i tried WOW 4-5 times over a 2 year period and never made it past level 15. Its just not my thing but i see the game for what it is and that is a very well put together game with lots of spit and polish and lots of voice acting...sorry for the run-on. I wasn't all for Jade Dynasty either so maybe i have issues?
Good post. Pretty much describes all MMO forums. If only there was one where people were banned permanently for those kinds of posts.
It's got potential!
I'm gonna drop $60.00 to support defenses 10, 9, 8, 3, and 2 because I can see the game has potential and will eventually someday live up to its potential!
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
#5 If you don't like it, GTFO
This one is a classic and falls on the irrational and childish side of the fence in terms of different methods that can be used when defending an MMO. I see it really quite often, but could never really wrap my head around it. Basically it's like saying: Either agree with me or keep your mouth shut.
To all of the people who use this particular phrase, whether it's referring to MMOs or to anything else for that matter: If your argument is so weak that you can't back it up in any way other than to tell someone to GTFO, maybe it's time to re-examine your belief.
So, either follow my advice, or GTFO.
I have to disagree to some degree here.
Often this is a response to somebody in a forum (or even in game...ANY game) who has come specifically to a forum for a game they have deemed unworthy of their time for whatever (possibly entirely legitimate) reason. Fine...not all games are for everyone. But did you really need to seek out a forum specifically dedicated to the discussion of a game that you have decided you don't like just to spew your passionate dislike for the game? It's like walking into a police station and shouting "I hate cops!" or a <insert ethnic-style> restaurant and proclaiming loudly that "<Said ethnic-style> food tastes like cr*p!" What kind of response did you expect? Giving someone this response doesn't necessarily imply childishness on the part of the speaker, it's entirely possible it is indicative of a response to the childishness of the original criticism.
Admittedly, a response like this to well thought-out constructive criticism or an effort to generate genuine discussion about some issue doesn't deserve a response like this, but we all know that those things are about as common on the internet as <insert item> dropped by <insert boss name> in <insert zone name> in <insert game name>.
"Ignorance begets confidence more often than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
"It is far easier to be critical than to be correct." - Benjamin Disreali
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain
And with all due respect, I must disagree. In the majority I have seen persons come into a games forum and voice displeasure by providing the reasons for such. There may be several reasons they do this: 1. they want to vent (after all they did spend money on the game and maybe are a little POed that their expectations werent met, 2. they want the developers to take heed of what they are saying and/or 3. they would at least like some feedback from the rest of the players, maybe they missed something that another player could point out. Whatever the reason, when I see the "If you dont like it GTFO" line it is usually when the fanboi CANNOT provide either a good explanation/defense of the game and/or the complainer has out argued/reasoned/debated the fanboi and the fanboi is left at a loss of offensive argument and just says in fustration the infamous "if you dont like it, GTFO".
If someone has a legitamate counter-argument, or can shut down the displeased purchaser with logic and reason, the #5 defense is RARELY or EVER used. It is only when they cannot that it is. One of the things I have discovered being on MMORPG.com is that people will play a game regardless of its defects, bugs, and any other fault if they really love it. I cannot see how this can be, but many people do, They dont only defend the game they actually convinve them selves that the games issues are minor and then proceed to project that to any other player that is not as IN LOVE with the game as they are. Simply put I have come to see that peoples standards are very different and if someone really really likes a game (or even the potential of it) they will find a way to keep playing it. Therefore there is really no purpose of arguing with them.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Okay, granted. However, I must not have made myself clear enough. I was only stating that sometimes it seems like people come to a forum which is specifically dedicated to a particular game merely to "hate on it" which is completely and utterly unproductive. If one hates WoW (which, btw, I don't, but neither have I played it for a year and a half or so...just using the biggest target as an example), why is one in the WoW forum in the first place? My experience (on the MMORPG.com forums most in particularly, which is why I typically spend so little time on them) is that most peoples' idea of a well thought-out criticism to a game is "<Insert game name> is GHEY!!" and I don't blame someone for responding with a "GTFO!" because the OP isn't going to debate the finer points of the combat system or the crafting mechanics or whatever. They are just gonna troll....and why should anyone, as the supposed "defenders" of said game, try to elicit an intelligent response from such a troll?
It was not my intention to support responding to people in such a way and, frankly, would never do so myself. Just not my style and I agree it is a childish response....just not necessarily for the same reasons as the author of the article states. And, as I stated, I absolutely believe that constructive criticism and well thought-out posts which are critical of a game should be welcomed and responded to appropriately and you are making the assumption that that is what people who are being responded to in such a way are doing. However, those people are the exception to the rule it seems to and the preponderance of "If you don't like it, GTFO!"s are almost undoubtedly, IMO, aimed at those who aren't presenting constructive criticism, but merely trolls with nothing better to do but proclaim that the fans of the game at which they are directing their ire are lame/gay/autistic/inbred/knuckle-dragging mouth breathers/etc etc.
But, then again, I'm so fed up with the attitude of so many in the MMO community that I tend to just steer clear of it entirely. I'll play whatever I happen to be playing and mostly keep my head down and enjoy what I can of it. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky and intolerant, eh?
"Ignorance begets confidence more often than does knowledge." - Charles Darwin
"It is far easier to be critical than to be correct." - Benjamin Disreali
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain
I actually think number 9 is a valid defense. Honestly. People tend to judge the quality of new games by the quality of current games. I mean, can anyone name 2 or more p2p games that had a really good launch and didnt have plenty of bugs? And if you say WoW, you either didn't play at launch or your memory isnt working as it should
Games like eve, wow, lotro and other that have been out for years have obviously had alot more time to fix the problems. I makes me a little sad to see how impatient people are. They basicly try the game for a month and if they see more bugs then the game they played before (which might have been out for 5 years) they will return there. It's unrealistic to expect a game thats not even a month old to have the same polish as a game that has been out for several years.
Enjoyed the list, even if i didn't really agree with everything you said ;P
I don't think it is about comparing how each game was to each other at release, but rather a game launching incomplete and expecting to attract players away from what the market currently has to offer.
It doesn't matter how a game today is compared to another mmo that released 5 years ago, because they are both competing for our subscription dollars today. If a game launches incomplete then comparing it to something 5-10 years previous doesn't really make it a better option that what is currently available.
I think that is why #9 talked about being complete and not about being buggy.
I loved both the "reasons to love MMO X" and the "reasons to hate MMO X", and I have heard every single one of them while playing WoW.
I suspect "Go back to WoW" was being used ironically in that context, however.
Yet, the problem here sometimes really does amount to GTFO, usually in the form of "If you hate the game so much, why are you continuing to play?" And when a person fails to give a coherent answer, or, indeed, any sort of answer to this question, yes, that's the point where I hit the /ignore button because they either simply want attention or they're a Troll, neither of which did I pay my $15 per month in order to hear.
With regard to the "What Is Grind" question from the "reasons to hate" list:
Good answer, Tedium Onset is an excellent summary.
In my specific case, my personal definition for Grind is when I run into the situation where the Quests available are either too hard to do on my own (I'm not really the core demographic for MMO games, preferring to solo as much as possible), forcing me into the position where the only thing I can do (in order to get to the higher levels where available quests will be easy enough to solo) is to go find monsters I can kill and then kill as many as I can for XP until I level how-ever-many-I-must to get back to the fun soloing part.
The reason I give my particular definition for the term is because as far as I am aware, there is only this one definition for Grind, and if I give my definition and other definitions are made available, perhaps there will be a later article on the various definitions for Tedium Onset so game companies can perhaps learn to stamp out this vicious thing they are all propagating.
Every one of us would feel that the 10 defences are very reasonable when it is in such a distilled state. We will all start arguing when we start talking about a specific game, and then all hell broke loose, everyone using the same 10 and feel hostile b/c someone else use the same 10 to disagree.
Liked the list though little confused about the order
2 & 3 are ones I think are pretty good, though often misused. Makes it not feel like a list of worst.
No 1 is just horrible though most popular. can't be a list of best.
If it was a list of most popular I'm sure No 5 would be much higher.
Still a very good list though my personal favorite one is "HTFU" from eve combines the logic of 2 with the briefness and harshness of 5
Into the breach meatbags
Well the #1 go back to WoW is quite valid.
The seeming majority of people that started playing mmorpg's thru WoW does have a shitty attitude vs other mmorpg games and are often immature and honestly not very experienced.
They expect all mmorpg games that listen to their players to buttlick them all night long which is not the case unless your company is named Blizzard.
Sorry mates but its a fact and im not the only one feeling this way. Thats why i play Fallen Earth! =D
I agree, while slightly childish to say, #1 is perfectly acceptable.
And actually, if the truth be told its what they say and do as a matter of fact.
We all know that initial sales of an MMO are huge!.. take a look at Aion, but after the first month there is a 95% fall out - where do you think these people are going?... you got it, "back to wow"
Though to be fair, your article is completly deplorable and inaccurate, I think its the first 'troll' article I've ever read. The title of the article is about reasons for "defending an MMO"... but since when does "go back to wow" become a 'defense' for a game?.. since its quite the opposite.
As are some of your other reasons listed, they are not defences of a game they are more like common replys to complaints and the whole article reads as if your are... ranting.
Get a grip.
My first reaction to reading your list was "just because you don't like their argument, doesn't make it cliche". The old adage of "arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics" applies here clearly. My thoughts on your list:
10. I'ts in beta - If you're on the beta forums, ranting that the gam sucks, then this is the only answer you deserve. The game is in beta. You are not paying to play it. It's like standing outside a building site for a building that's not done and shouting that it sucks. Of course it sucks, it's not done. Unfinished things always suck. Now I grant that betas these days are more previews than actual tests, and more and more beta devs are requiring you to pre-order to beta, but so what? Don't pre-order and you're not paying money or exposed to unfinished games. "I choose to put myself through misery and then I choose to rant about how miserable it is! I choose to pay money for a product I *KNOW* isn't done, then I choose to whine loudly about how much it's not done!!" Yeah, good luck with that.
9. It'll be complete in six months - No MMO is ever "complete", we pay for them to be developed. If you're yelling on a forum about how an MMO's not finished, you need to go back to WoW :P
8. It's an indy game - Yes, which means they don't have the budget to meet your expectations. And if you pay WoW prices for an Indy game, you're already making a huge mistake, why compound it by logging into their forums and ranting about it? You download a free trial, you play for a week, you see it's Indy, and you leave. If you put money down, especially on an Indy game that's not released, then I've swampland to sell you.
7. You're Nothing But a Troll / Hater - If you are on the devs forums, ranting about the game like you hate it, then you *ARE* a Troll. I don't go into McDonalds and scream at them that they don't serve McEggrolls. The game is how the game is, and if you don't like it, GTFO, seriously. Stop paying, stop playing, stop trolling, go do something else. If you don't, then that means you *LIKE* yelling on forums, paying for games you hate, and being a troll. Not rocket science here. I don't pay for a subscription to Popular Knitting, because I don't like Knitting. I'm not going to buy the magazine then write letters to the editor every month about how it doesn't have articles on MMO's.
6. You're obviously a paid shill for Company X - Yeah, this one's just stupid, but likely the person it's said to is just as much a moron.
5. If you don't like it, GTFO - Seriously. Dr, Dr, it hurts when I do that! Then STOP DOING THAT. It's not about the argument, it's not about any salient points. If you are on the devs forums, yelling about how much the game sucks, then you can only have 2 possible reasons for doing it: You hope and pray the devs will see your screaming and change the game to suit your needs (very likely won't happen), or you LIKE YELLING. In either case, STFU and GTFO. There's no arguing with you, so there's no point I can make to change your mind. The fact that you're there yelling at all tells me you're not rational. I'm not on the Eve forums ranting about how much I hate PvP and I wish they'd stop. I voted with my dollar. That's what rational people do. They don't scream at the top of their lungs about impossible solutions to ridiculous problems.
4. The fun starts after level X - Classic MMO strat, sadly. Sorry you don't like it. The fun in WoW starts at 60, erm 70, I mean 80, I mean 85. The fun in CoH never starts. It's bad design that is likely not going to change, but feel free to yell about it on the forums, because THAT always solves problems.
3. This game is X, it was never intended to be Y - Usually true, actually. Eve is PvP, it was never intended to be PvE. If I wanted it to be PvE, that's all about me. No amount of yelling is going to change that. If I camped the Eve forums ranting about this, this would be the answer I'd get, they'd be right, I'd be wrong. LRN2Demographic.
2. This game isn't for everyone - This is the same as #3, LRN2Demographic. Devs pick an audience (hopefully) and write to it. If you're not in it, then you're not in it. You can't scream yourself into it. Go stand in McDonalds and scream for Chinese food, see how well that goes. If it's not for you, it's not for you, STFU GTFO.
1. Go back to WoW - Wow, your responses to this show you have no clue why people say this to you at all
There are a LOT of reasons why people say this that have nothing to do with what you said.
There are lots of reasons people refer to Wow, not the least that it's a behemoth that has more players than every other domestic MMO combined.
Back to my original point, arguing at all on the interwebs is pointless. If you see someone with a position different than yours, feel free to make a comment, but if you don't like their reply, walk away. You can't win, and even if you do....see the special olympics comment above. Just walk away. He's allowed to be wrong, just like you are.
There is no knowledge that is no power.
GOOD ARTICLE! LMAO
Go back to WOW is my favorite.
(DDDDDDDAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH raises plunger salute to Stradden for great article)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Rawr!~
Spot on.
I think I'm in love.
Great article and the only exception I think is valid in many situations is I the one girlgeek so eloquently spoke about.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Best article evar. Most sig worthy.
#5 is totally over used. So is #1 so I agree with that. Totally true that they couldn't come up with any decent argument so they just use #1. Not to mention many people using that argument fail hardcore in that they ASSUME you even play WoW or even like WoW to begin with.
#5 is a pretty stupid defense. It's rude like you said and sometimes maybe they actually DO have a point and aren't just whining?
#6 You're obviously a paid shill for Company X
First of all, where do I get a job like that?"Seeking professional troll. Must hate everything and have unpleasant social skills. Being a douchebag is an asset, but not required."
That's easy. Talk radio DJ.
I like how folks think game devs have the money to pay people to do stuff like this on top of all the front loaded debt you have when you make an MMO in the first place...
#5 If you don't like it, GTFO
That usually precedes or follows: "You must have no life if you have all this time to come to a forum to bash X game", as though having all that time to come to a forum to DEFEND X game somehow doesn't warrant the same assumption.
#4 The fun starts after level X
We've all heard this one before in a thread where one person is complaining that the game is no fun after a few hours of gameplay: "Don't worry man, the game gets fun after about 20 levels."
Actually, I'd say that was the case for every MMO I played before pre-cu SWG. It would also explain why I went back to MUD's until that time.
#3 This game is X, it was never intended to be YI'm going to be honest, I really like this defense of a game. Often times, people will jump into some forum or another and rag on an MMO for not being a certain kind of game, most often for not being a sandbox.
And thus, the reason most developers don't make sandbox games, any more. Who wants to cater to a demographic of people who gauge their fun on whether they can call a game an "X" type of game or not? They'd rather cater to people who want a game to be fun, whether it happens to be "X" type of game or not.
#2 This game isn't for everyoneThis is another one of those sometimes good and sometimes bad defenses of a game.
Depends heavily on the context of the rest of their email, and the original argument. Like, for example, when people want LotRO to be ffa PvP...
#1 Go back to WoW
I still think many of the folks using this as an argument are PLAYING WoW and pretending not to. The odds of this are statistically sound.
There's some perfect examples of this. A few weeks back there was a thread ripping LotRO for having a bunch of quest text; called something like, "tired of having to read all this stupid quest text" or something like that.
For LotRO. A lore heavy, story driven MMO.
As I mentioned before, people complain about LotRO not being ffa PvP, or being able to be a monster player anywhere in middle earth.
Sometimes, "this game is not for you" means:
"This game is not for you, and if you haven't figured that out by now, YOU'RE STUPID.".
PS: Hello Kitty is for EVERYONE.