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Why games need a Death Penalty

(Note: By Death Penalty I am referring to major penalties: Exp loss, etc.  Durability loss is not a penalty when gold is meaningless)

Why is Death Penalty a good idea? 

Games without a death penalty have

  • Too many max levels characters.  These are the same people who would have been held back in any normal MMORPG, because their lack of skill would have kept them at the appropriate level until they've gained some skills.  Every max level player in these games is just a number or statistic.  They can't become famous, because there are probably 1000 other max levels of the same class due to the trivial leveling system.
  • Bad players.  Similar to the previous point, games with no death penalty have people who can reach max level in almost the same amount of time as a skilled player.  They never get fed up and quit, because they don't lose anything.  Normal MMORPGs would have filtered bad players off of the server or game, which is appropriate. 
  • Easy mode content.  Why is this? Because there are more bad players in games without a death penalty.  Since their playerbase consists of less skilled players, they have to make their content more accessible to those less skilled players.
  • PvP systems that are simply not fun at all.  Really, do you care about killing someone if they don't lose anything? Do you care if you die in PvP if you don't lose anything?

 

MMORPGs with a death penalty are even more immersive.  They allow you to feel a wider range of emotions.  Think of games without DP's.  You simply don't care what happens.  If you are in a game with a DP, you do care.. When you die, you get angry, or sad, etc.  What happened to allowing players be immersed in their "MMORPG".   Game companies are pathetic, they take out the parts that could be painful to players, but it just makes their game less fun.  

When I play an MMORPG, I don't want a sugar coated crap world that is boring, similar to the most popular MMORPG out there.  MMORPGs that let players feel are more immersive.

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Comments

  • chesiremorphchesiremorph Member Posts: 128

    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

    BoB

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Member Posts: 135
    Originally posted by chesiremorph


    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

     

    Yeah, like WoW.  God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.

    If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT.  Sigh

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013

    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    In such a game like i described with death penalty ofc you would simply identify the skilled players from the rest just by their lvls.A GOOD PLAYER SIMPLY WOULDNT WIPE SO OFTEN LIKE A BAD PLAYER, meaning he would take lots less xp penalties,and therefore he would lvl faster than others.

    I strongly agree with OP about that in a game with no death penalty none cares much about dying cause simply he aint loosing anything thus taking lots of adrenaline and immersion and passionate fewling from the game we play.

    Now the reason death penalty doesnt exist is quite obvious. All companies trying to make games that fitsto the taste of the big masses and not for the maybe hardcore players. Only way this could happen is some indy company that would launch a niche mmorpg aka darkfall maybe .

    My question is this..

    1.If a game is well designed with great standards (excelent combat system, great server that holds easily loads of players, lagg free,smooth and polished gameplay,loads of things to do,crafting building ,pvp,raids etc) how bad could it be if it was including a death  xp penalty?

    2. How hard is it to launch on a good mmorpg a unique server with xp penalty for the hardcore fans (wow excluded due to its settings and build, mechanics , combat style etc)

  • chesiremorphchesiremorph Member Posts: 128
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by chesiremorph


    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

     

    Yeah, like WoW.  God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.

    If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT.  Sigh



     

    I read the post.... ya might want to write that somewhere in it. Or even explain what kind of death penalty you are condoning.

    SIGH

    Example - I am all for exp hit death penalties... moderatly harsh... or equal to EQ. I see debuffs as a hinderance not a loss, so I'm not a proponent of debuffs at all.

    BoB

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Member Posts: 135
    Originally posted by chesiremorph

    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by chesiremorph


    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

     

    Yeah, like WoW.  God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.

    If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT.  Sigh



     

    I read the post.... ya might want to write that somewhere in it. Or even explain what kind of death penalty you are condoning.

    SIGH

    Example - I am all for exp hit death penalties... moderatly harsh... or equal to EQ. I see debuffs as a hinderance not a loss, so I'm not a proponent of debuffs at all.

     

    done.. Yeah I kind of hate how sometimes people will somehow claim that games with minor penalties for dying are somehow a Death Penalty.  A Death Penalty is something that will really piss you off if you die, basically.

     

  • chesiremorphchesiremorph Member Posts: 128
    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).
    In such a game like i described with death penalty ofc you would simply identify the skilled players from the rest just by their lvls.A GOOD PLAYER SIMPLY WOULDNT WIPE SO OFTEN LIKE A BAD PLAYER, meaning he would take lots less xp penalties,and therefore he would lvl faster than others.
    I strongly agree with OP about that in a game with no death penalty none cares much about dying cause simply he aint loosing anything thus taking lots of adrenaline and immersion and passionate fewling from the game we play.
    Now the reason death penalty doesnt exist is quite obvious. All companies trying to make games that fitsto the taste of the big masses and not for the maybe hardcore players. Only way this could happen is some indy company that would launch a niche mmorpg aka darkfall maybe .
    My question is this..
    1.If a game is well designed with great standards (excelent combat system, great server that holds easily loads of players, lagg free,smooth and polished gameplay,loads of things to do,crafting building ,pvp,raids etc) how bad could it be if it was including a death  xp penalty?
    2. How hard is it to launch on a good mmorpg a unique server with xp penalty for the hardcore fans (wow excluded due to its settings and build, mechanics , combat style etc)



     

    I'm pretty sure most rational people agree with you. I would like for tha games I play to have a more realistic feel to them. The exp hit gives the player a sense of loss. That is something I miss currently. Fallen earth has a moderate penalty. I just started playing a few days ago. It's not realy my taste, but It's mush better than most of the other games out currently.

    BoB

  • chesiremorphchesiremorph Member Posts: 128
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by chesiremorph

    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by chesiremorph


    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

     

    Yeah, like WoW.  God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.

    If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT.  Sigh



     

    I read the post.... ya might want to write that somewhere in it. Or even explain what kind of death penalty you are condoning.

    SIGH

    Example - I am all for exp hit death penalties... moderatly harsh... or equal to EQ. I see debuffs as a hinderance not a loss, so I'm not a proponent of debuffs at all.

     

    done.. Yeah I kind of hate how sometimes people will somehow claim that games with minor penalties for dying are somehow a Death Penalty.  A Death Penalty is something that will really piss you off if you die, basically.

     

    Totaly agree. Don't get me wrong, I dont want to lose days of work over something as simple as falling off a ledge, but ya gotta lose something.

     

    BoB

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    You've just described arena rating.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Member Posts: 135
    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).
    In such a game like i described with death penalty ofc you would simply identify the skilled players from the rest just by their lvls.A GOOD PLAYER SIMPLY WOULDNT WIPE SO OFTEN LIKE A BAD PLAYER, meaning he would take lots less xp penalties,and therefore he would lvl faster than others.
    I strongly agree with OP about that in a game with no death penalty none cares much about dying cause simply he aint loosing anything thus taking lots of adrenaline and immersion and passionate fewling from the game we play.
    Now the reason death penalty doesnt exist is quite obvious. All companies trying to make games that fitsto the taste of the big masses and not for the maybe hardcore players. Only way this could happen is some indy company that would launch a niche mmorpg aka darkfall maybe .
    My question is this..
    1.If a game is well designed with great standards (excelent combat system, great server that holds easily loads of players, lagg free,smooth and polished gameplay,loads of things to do,crafting building ,pvp,raids etc) how bad could it be if it was including a death  xp penalty?
    2. How hard is it to launch on a good mmorpg a unique server with xp penalty for the hardcore fans (wow excluded due to its settings and build, mechanics , combat style etc)

     

    You used to be able to use the level to determine how good players were.  In EQ, most high levels were also highly skilled. They didn't want to die, and they adapted to become better at the game.  

    EQ was the only game where everytime I saw a level 60 I would take notice.  It's not like level 60's were numbers there, they were rare.  Being level 60 meant being a god. Now with the easy leveling system and huge servers, you just aren't impressed with high levels anymore, they are numbers.  

    What is the point of these MMORPGs, when you can't even have a name?

     

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Member Posts: 135
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    Defined by their level?  Genius!   We could even reward players gear based on their level, to further differentiate and reward skilled play!

    We might call this new type of level "arena rating", to differentiate it from existing games where leveling is automatic.  You would gain arena rating from winning, and lose it from losing (death penalty!,) and the magnitude of change would be based on the relative ratings between the two competing teams.

    This is a new idea, we should run with it!

     

    I think if you want to talk about why Arena PvP is a bad idea, maybe start a Topic called "Why Carebear PvP systems are better than real world FFA PvP systems".  I will participate in that one..

  • Toquio3Toquio3 Member Posts: 1,074
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    Defined by their level?  Genius!   We could even reward players gear based on their level, to further differentiate and reward skilled play!

    We might call this new type of level "arena rating", to differentiate it from existing games where leveling is automatic.  You would gain arena rating from winning, and lose it from losing (death penalty!,) and the magnitude of change would be based on the relative ratings between the two competing teams.

    This is a new idea, we should run with it!

     

    I think if you want to talk about why Arena PvP is a bad idea, maybe start a Topic called "Why Carebear PvP systems are better than real world FFA PvP systems".  I will participate in that one..

     

    Hmm, I think it might have something to do with the fact that "carebear pvp systems" like arenas are an actual test of the players' skill, while real world FFA PvP systems are just a test to see who has the most people.

    image
    If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    Defined by their level?  Genius!   We could even reward players gear based on their level, to further differentiate and reward skilled play!

    We might call this new type of level "arena rating", to differentiate it from existing games where leveling is automatic.  You would gain arena rating from winning, and lose it from losing (death penalty!,) and the magnitude of change would be based on the relative ratings between the two competing teams.

    This is a new idea, we should run with it!

     

    I think if you want to talk about why Arena PvP is a bad idea, maybe start a Topic called "Why Carebear PvP systems are better than real world FFA PvP systems".  I will participate in that one..

    The point of my post was that "harsh" death penalty exists in WOW PVP.  You lose, you lose rating points (the currency of progression.)  This is exactly the mechanic you're asking for.

    As you've pointed out, whether you like WOW PVP is an entirely different topic.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • huge_froglokhuge_froglok Member Posts: 135
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    Defined by their level?  Genius!   We could even reward players gear based on their level, to further differentiate and reward skilled play!

    We might call this new type of level "arena rating", to differentiate it from existing games where leveling is automatic.  You would gain arena rating from winning, and lose it from losing (death penalty!,) and the magnitude of change would be based on the relative ratings between the two competing teams.

    This is a new idea, we should run with it!

     

    I think if you want to talk about why Arena PvP is a bad idea, maybe start a Topic called "Why Carebear PvP systems are better than real world FFA PvP systems".  I will participate in that one..

    The point of my post was that "harsh" death penalty exists in WOW PVP.  You lose, you lose rating points (the currency of progression.)  This is exactly the mechanic you're asking for.

    As you've pointed out, whether you like WOW PVP is an entirely different topic.

     

    Well, whether you think it is harsh is subjective.  If you played an EQ PvP server you would know what I mean.

    Telling me that it is harsh, it's the same thing as you telling me that the durability loss system in WoW is harsh. 

    I also think that PvP should cause exp loss when dying.  People care about that.  Then put a limited supply of resources in the game (limited NPCs, limited exp spots, etc.).  That is my kind of PvP system.

    I don't find winning or lossing in WoW PvP fun, maybe because it was pointless and operated off of a gearshop instead of being driven by the guilds on the server competing with each other.

  • AgentAnarkiiAgentAnarkii Member UncommonPosts: 173
    Originally posted by Toquio3

    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    Defined by their level?  Genius!   We could even reward players gear based on their level, to further differentiate and reward skilled play!

    We might call this new type of level "arena rating", to differentiate it from existing games where leveling is automatic.  You would gain arena rating from winning, and lose it from losing (death penalty!,) and the magnitude of change would be based on the relative ratings between the two competing teams.

    This is a new idea, we should run with it!

     

    I think if you want to talk about why Arena PvP is a bad idea, maybe start a Topic called "Why Carebear PvP systems are better than real world FFA PvP systems".  I will participate in that one..

     

    Hmm, I think it might have something to do with the fact that "carebear pvp systems" like arenas are an actual test of the players' skill, while real world FFA PvP systems are just a test to see who has the most people.

    I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one. For example in EVE you don't win because of skill you win because your side had X number of battleships then the other side. WoW's pvp is fun BG's are normally equal and the Arenas are fun i don't personally play WoW but it's got good balanced pvp.

     

  • OtiroOtiro Member Posts: 205
    Originally posted by huge_froglok


    (Note: By Death Penalty I am referring to major penalties: Exp loss, etc.  Durability loss is not a penalty when gold is meaningless)
    Why is Death Penalty a good idea? 
    Games without a death penalty have

    Too many max levels characters.  These are the same people who would have been held back in any normal MMORPG, because their lack of skill would have kept them at the appropriate level until they've gained some skills.  Every max level player in these games is just a number or statistic.  They can't become famous, because there are probably 1000 other max levels of the same class due to the trivial leveling system.
    Bad players.  Similar to the previous point, games with no death penalty have people who can reach max level in almost the same amount of time as a skilled player.  They never get fed up and quit, because they don't lose anything.  Normal MMORPGs would have filtered bad players off of the server or game, which is appropriate. 
    Easy mode content.  Why is this? Because there are more bad players in games without a death penalty.  Since their playerbase consists of less skilled players, they have to make their content more accessible to those less skilled players.
    PvP systems that are simply not fun at all.  Really, do you care about killing someone if they don't lose anything? Do you care if you die in PvP if you don't lose anything?

     
    MMORPGs with a death penalty are even more immersive.  They allow you to feel a wider range of emotions.  Think of games without DP's.  You simply don't care what happens.  If you are in a game with a DP, you do care.. When you die, you get angry, or sad, etc.  What happened to allowing players be immersed in their "MMORPG".   Game companies are pathetic, they take out the parts that could be painful to players, but it just makes their game less fun.  
    When I play an MMORPG, I don't want a sugar coated crap world that is boring, similar to the most popular MMORPG out there.  MMORPGs that let players feel are more immersive.

     

    I agree with you. I also believe with a good penalty people learn how to play their character's better. They will be afraid to die so would want to know about their skills/spells better most of the player base do now.

  • midmagicmidmagic Member Posts: 614

    Odd... I never really cared about dying in EQ. Even when the death penalty included corpse rot and loss of all equipment. My opinion. If you aren't dying you aren't trying (hard enough content).

    Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  • tazarconantazarconan Member Posts: 1,013
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Originally posted by tazarconan


    I had once a vision of an mmorpg where the quality of the players would be defined by their lvl ad not from their gear (items lvls). That means that the improvement of the players would be continual throught their adventures and not static like the usual mmorpg's where after u hit lvl cap u just start farming raids or battlegrounds for justbetter gear in order to raise your actual lvl by items (wow).

    You've just described arena rating.

     

    Well yeah arenas in wow work in a similar way,when u win a fight u raise your rating,when u loose a fight u loose rating.Arenas are one of the main reasons im still in wow.

    The op here though talks about a game with xp penalty in the main core game.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Member UncommonPosts: 1,003
    Originally posted by huge_froglok


    (Note: By Death Penalty I am referring to major penalties: Exp loss, etc.  Durability loss is not a penalty when gold is meaningless)
    Why is Death Penalty a good idea? 
    Games without a death penalty have

    Too many max levels characters.  These are the same people who would have been held back in any normal MMORPG, because their lack of skill would have kept them at the appropriate level until they've gained some skills.  Every max level player in these games is just a number or statistic.  They can't become famous, because there are probably 1000 other max levels of the same class due to the trivial leveling system.
    Bad players.  Similar to the previous point, games with no death penalty have people who can reach max level in almost the same amount of time as a skilled player.  They never get fed up and quit, because they don't lose anything.  Normal MMORPGs would have filtered bad players off of the server or game, which is appropriate. 
    Easy mode content.  Why is this? Because there are more bad players in games without a death penalty.  Since their playerbase consists of less skilled players, they have to make their content more accessible to those less skilled players.
    PvP systems that are simply not fun at all.  Really, do you care about killing someone if they don't lose anything? Do you care if you die in PvP if you don't lose anything?

     
    MMORPGs with a death penalty are even more immersive.  They allow you to feel a wider range of emotions.  Think of games without DP's.  You simply don't care what happens.  If you are in a game with a DP, you do care.. When you die, you get angry, or sad, etc.  What happened to allowing players be immersed in their "MMORPG".   Game companies are pathetic, they take out the parts that could be painful to players, but it just makes their game less fun.  
    When I play an MMORPG, I don't want a sugar coated crap world that is boring, similar to the most popular MMORPG out there.  MMORPGs that let players feel are more immersive.



     

    All of the complaints you have seem to revolve around what other players have.   Why do you concern yourself with this?  

    "Too many max level players" - how many is too many?   The longer an MMO is out, the more max level players it will have.  It's inevitable.   A harsh death penalty will slow the rate down, but never stop it.  

    "Bad players" - unless you're grouping with them, why do you care?   You also seem to desire a lower population on the server you're on.   I doubt many developers want to see low populations on their servers.

    "Easy mode content" - if you find the content too easy in PvE, you can always make it harder.   Do quests 5 levels above yours, or take on multiple mobs at once.   This is the easiest of your complaints to solve, and can be done in pretty much any MMO.

    "PvP unfun systems" - this you define as how much other players lose???   Is this because you want their gear, or that you want their death to bother them more?   Again, you need to stop defining your enjoyment by what other players have or do.

  • kyse2kyse2 Member UncommonPosts: 32

    if u like Death Penalty so much then play tibia lol

  • alucard3000alucard3000 Member Posts: 414
    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Originally posted by chesiremorph


    I'm not sure what games you are playing, but most MMO's have some sort of death penalty.

     

    Yeah, like WoW.  God forbid a pointless durability loss when $ is nothing in that game.

    If you read the post you might realize I am referring to Death Penalties that players CARE ABOUT.  Sigh



     

    yea nothing like waking up the next morning and seeing the player you killed the previous evening in a pvp match in the obituaries rock on

    image

  • ReaperUkReaperUk Member UncommonPosts: 760
    Originally posted by huge_froglok


     
    done.. Yeah I kind of hate how sometimes people will somehow claim that games with minor penalties for dying are somehow a Death Penalty.  A Death Penalty is something that will really piss you off if you die, basically.
     



     

    If a game had a death penalty that really pissed me off, I probably wouldn't want to play that game for very long and I suspect neither do most other people. I play games to relax and have fun. Why the hell should  I have to be worried about dying in a video game?

  • alucard3000alucard3000 Member Posts: 414

    emo's

    image

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by huge_froglok


    (Note: By Death Penalty I am referring to major penalties: Exp loss, etc.  Durability loss is not a penalty when gold is meaningless)
    Why is Death Penalty a good idea? 
    Games without a death penalty have

    Too many max levels characters.  These are the same people who would have been held back in any normal MMORPG, because their lack of skill would have kept them at the appropriate level until they've gained some skills.  Every max level player in these games is just a number or statistic.  They can't become famous, because there are probably 1000 other max levels of the same class due to the trivial leveling system.
     

     


    It's an MMORPG. You're not "famous" because you can tolerate a horribly boring grind when other people can't. You may be obsessive compulsive, or easily entertained, but not "famous".

     

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342


    Originally posted by huge_froglok

    Game companies are pathetic, they take out the parts that could be painful to players, but it just makes their game less fun.  

    There are +100M gamers enjoying games with soft death penalty and indeed game companies are pathetic to provide them such games.

    I love this type of arguments.

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