Still find it funny that almost everyone associates time with "hardcore" and "casual". So if I put my raft into Townlake and just paddle around for four hours I am more hardcore than someone who does a 45 minute Class 6 whitewater run?
Casual= Someone who wants no challenge while playing. Their dream is great rewards for minimal effort.
Hardcore= Someone who wants to overcome obstacles tougher than themselves. Their dream is to survive tasks that have very little chance of success no matter how much time they can invest.
These definitions seem accurate
Exept for the part about casuals and challenge, I refer you to my post 3 pages back.....
"As a casual I raided occasionally and ran end game group dungeons on a nightly basis, never needed the easy way out once. On top of that I invested upwards of 6 hours a day playing."
I ran with a guild full of casuals who played the exact same way. The only real difference between casuals and hardcores is that casuals manage their time and multitask better.
For the last time you were not a casual player!!!!!!! 6 hours a day? playing everynight? give us a break.
Unfortuantley, your label for me doesn't matter. Since when did you become the leading authority on a gaming style you obviously have never participated in?
Casual = available time played in a mmo.
6 hours a day x 7 days a week = Not fucking casual!!!!!!!!!!
.... and where are the studies snd statistics to prove this?
You play all fucking day bro. 6+ hours a day? How can you even call youself casual? Your not casual you just suck ass, realize this and get over it.
Seriously where the hell do you 30+ hour a week tools get off claiming casual play? because you dont spend every second raiding you dont play a lot? wtf is that?
So, you're saying that if I had a lvl one character that I sat down at the AH and watched for 6+ hours a day that makes me a hard core player?
Because, like with any game, they want to play to have fun?
How is a challenging game not fun?
Good job completely ignoring and consequently misinterpreting what I said.
Casual games only "chew up and spit out" hardcores because the games are trivial to hardcore players.
Wow...that's the most epic misinterpretation and ignoring of what was presented I've ever seen.
Yeah, i'd like to know which universe you are referring to.. where casuals can do content that a "hardcore" player can't.
Games for casuals tend to have easy content, so a hardcore can do the content NP if the casual can.
And I quote, from what I've all-ready said.
"The challenge comes from the moment to moment activities and the complexity, strategy, and skilled needed to complete them, not how long it takes to do so."
Your argument rests on the premise that time equates to challenge or that challenging activities take time, which are both false assertions. The only activities that take time are relatively simple ones, that are often repeated en masse due to the minimal results garnered from each attempt at the activity, that the result is a sizable amount of time must be consumed doing a relatively mundane activity to achieve a worthwhile result.
Yes, you have to invest time to do PVE.
I mean, say a boss took 1 second to kill. Do you really think that can be more difficult(requiring more strategy) than something that took 30 minutes straight?
Casuals though, they kind of want that 30 second - 1 minute PVE encounter stuff.
You ignored my question, I still want an answer to it.
And as to your question, yes, that boss that could take 1 second to kill could in fact be a harder boss that one that takes 30 min. The difference? That 1 second boss, assuming it also uses all the other points I have made rather than a cherry picked few you might choose, would also have equally devastating methods of killing players in such a short time, have methods of responding to most players attacks and mitigating them, and adapt to player combat styles and strategies. Not to mention the potential of such a boss for the boss only being killable given particular method.
Going back to your strategy, the only challenging part is keeping my eyes open long enough to watch the boss' health bar whittle down to zero.
I'll repeat my question too, which do you think is harder to make a knife or a spoon?
If you think 1 second raids are gonna be more challenging than long ones, I don't know what to say..
It should be obvious that with a longer period of time to work with, the more stuff can happen. A boss designed to die in 10 seconds can't have as much variability as one who dies in 30 seconds.
Well you once again half answered it.
You did however still answer that half with what I predicted.
So, I'll make my clarifying point, which funnily enough I had all ready made, and you had to completely ignore in order to make that comment.
I said 'assuming it also uses all the other points I have made rather than a cherry picked few you might choose'.
Now what might that imply? Oh yeah that the conditions in which I have even suggested such a potential outcome for a boss hinges on other contingencies being put into effect. In my case, the boss is capable of dying in short order, but only with an infinitely humongous amount of equal parts skill and luck.
Why is it harder? Because as I said, that boss would be countering your attacks on an individual basis and against larger battle strategies. The boss would have that fabled ability to learn from the players common movements and tactics, and react to negate them, leaving them scrambling for a different strategy and mode of attack.
This doesn't include other methods I have suggested in my prior posts that you have also equally ignored.
Why i it shorter? Because it's a skilled group of individuals applying their actual ability to play well against the enemy AI rather then a bunch of half-wits that have ground out al the 'phat gear' and stats to successfully nick away at the boss mob's health until it dies before the players do.
If you notice, the defining difference, is skill. Player skill where you actually have to be able to improvise against adapting mobs that learn your strategies and equally adapt to their ever changing attack methods is weighed more heavily that how much time it takes to do X amount of damage while deflecting X amount of damage in order to die more slowly tan that which you are killing.
Your definition is flawed because you're trying to apply your system to my logic, rather than taking the system I'm laying out and applying the logic to it. You are failing to grasp the actual conditions and context of the arguments in favor of applying half-baked ideas that marry only aspects of what I say to your own conceptions.
i did not say the boss is designed to die in one second, I said it's a potential. You seem to only operate on the premise of such activities all take a specific amount of time to do, which is just not right.
I'll repeat my question too, which do you think is harder to make, a knife or a spoon?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Still find it funny that almost everyone associates time with "hardcore" and "casual". So if I put my raft into Townlake and just paddle around for four hours I am more hardcore than someone who does a 45 minute Class 6 whitewater run?
Casual= Someone who wants no challenge while playing. Their dream is great rewards for minimal effort.
Hardcore= Someone who wants to overcome obstacles tougher than themselves. Their dream is to survive tasks that have very little chance of success no matter how much time they can invest.
These definitions seem accurate
Exept for the part about casuals and challenge, I refer you to my post 3 pages back.....
"As a casual I raided occasionally and ran end game group dungeons on a nightly basis, never needed the easy way out once. On top of that I invested upwards of 6 hours a day playing."
I ran with a guild full of casuals who played the exact same way. The only real difference between casuals and hardcores is that casuals manage their time and multitask better.
For the last time you were not a casual player!!!!!!! 6 hours a day? playing everynight? give us a break.
Unfortuantley, your label for me doesn't matter. Since when did you become the leading authority on a gaming style you obviously have never participated in?
Casual = available time played in a mmo.
6 hours a day x 7 days a week = Not fucking casual!!!!!!!!!!
.... and where are the studies snd statistics to prove this?
You play all fucking day bro. 6+ hours a day? How can you even call youself casual? Your not casual you just suck ass, realize this and get over it.
Seriously where the hell do you 30+ hour a week tools get off claiming casual play? because you dont spend every second raiding you dont play a lot? wtf is that?
So, you're saying that if I had a lvl one character that I sat down at the AH and watched for 6+ hours a day that makes me a hard core player?
For the last time you were not a casual player!!!!!!! 6 hours a day? playing everynight? give us a break.
Unfortuantley, your label for me doesn't matter. Since when did you become the leading authority on a gaming style you obviously have never participated in?
So what have we learned today?
We learned that the definition of casual and hardcore is completely subjective. Everyone has their own definition making it a moot point to even argue about it.
Yeah but I'm actually enjoying the pointless argument.
What I'm enjoying is watching Rockgod flip out and Iksar defending his lonely solitary life as something important and with meaning.
IM enjoying it also. See what i have to do to get banned for a couple days? its about time i take abreak im starting to get wife aggro.
Still find it funny that almost everyone associates time with "hardcore" and "casual". So if I put my raft into Townlake and just paddle around for four hours I am more hardcore than someone who does a 45 minute Class 6 whitewater run?
Casual= Someone who wants no challenge while playing. Their dream is great rewards for minimal effort.
Hardcore= Someone who wants to overcome obstacles tougher than themselves. Their dream is to survive tasks that have very little chance of success no matter how much time they can invest.
These definitions seem accurate
Exept for the part about casuals and challenge, I refer you to my post 3 pages back.....
"As a casual I raided occasionally and ran end game group dungeons on a nightly basis, never needed the easy way out once. On top of that I invested upwards of 6 hours a day playing."
I ran with a guild full of casuals who played the exact same way. The only real difference between casuals and hardcores is that casuals manage their time and multitask better.
For the last time you were not a casual player!!!!!!! 6 hours a day? playing everynight? give us a break.
Unfortuantley, your label for me doesn't matter. Since when did you become the leading authority on a gaming style you obviously have never participated in?
Casual = available time played in a mmo.
6 hours a day x 7 days a week = Not fucking casual!!!!!!!!!!
.... and where are the studies snd statistics to prove this?
You play all fucking day bro. 6+ hours a day? How can you even call youself casual? Your not casual you just suck ass, realize this and get over it.
Seriously where the hell do you 30+ hour a week tools get off claiming casual play? because you dont spend every second raiding you dont play a lot? wtf is that?
So, you're saying that if I had a lvl one character that I sat down at the AH and watched for 6+ hours a day that makes me a hard core player?
Yes
Sorry guys, it's getting late and I gotta go. Want me to find a replacement?
Why do they want to play MMORPGs when they don't want to invest any time? Wouldn't FPS games be better for them, since they don't like the whole leveling, raiding, questing, etc.
They want to remove any time consuming activities from MMORPGs. After a while, MMORPGs won't have any time investment. You'll just log in with your level 80 with max gear because leveling and raiding are too time consuming for some people.
WoW is a perfect example of this, where their game has gone in the past 6 years. From 40 man 3 hour raids to raids where you just zone in and theres a boss waiting for you.
Why not? MMORPG is entertaining. Downing boss with others is a different kind of entertainment than FPS. And yes, i do play FPS and I do want my VoA 10/25 fast 30 min raid. Both are fun in different ways. And developers obviously know that we (the casuals) are a big segment of the market and cater to us.
With today's more and more entertainment choices, and busy life-style, making MMOs enjoyable with less time investment is obviously the right way to go.
A rather retarded question to begin with.. just more endless rant with some weird misunderstanding of why ppl play the way they do without rly seeking an answer...
Casuals play MMORPGs because they're still games. We don't play them as much as hardcore players because we know what sex with another person feels like. So to sum it up, my definition of casual and hardcore is
Casual = Sex getting mofo's
Hardcore = Virgins
Ok, not really but it's just another example of the generalizations going on in this thread that are competely idiotic. Also the fact that casuals are being looked down upon for not playing to the hardcores expectations is laughable. Some people would rather do something other than sit in front of a computer all day everyday.
Casuals go into MC and wipe
Hardcore beat MC
Casuals say "I want to log on for 5 minutes and clear MC, please dumb it down for me"
HC are just betterat gaming. MMORPGs are now catering to the casuals because casuals want to log on to a game for 6 hours and talk in Ironforge general chat about how the game is too difficult
must be because they like leveling and questing, but maybe no raiding and grinding...strange.
Why do "hardcores" like wasting their time grinding, raiding, leveling, questing, etc.
How can you like questing when they are all variants of the same thing?
How do you like leveling when that is a grind?
Just because you make leveling faster doesn't make it less of a "grind"
And the game is so easy, how can you like leveling when there's no challenge or risk of dying?
Hardcore like a challenge, casuals don't. Hardcore are ok with reasonable time investments (1-2 hour per day), casuals are not.
Casuals want to level to 60 in a week, hardcore players care about the journey and don't mind it when it takes a few months to reach max level.
WoW is like:
Welfare level 80's
Welfare gear
How is any of that meaningful?
ummmmmm....
Well, time investment doesn't mean that there is a challenge.
Let's take it to an extreme example.
I can imagine a game where each thing you kill only gives you 1 xp. It takes millions to get to top level but each thing you kill is easy. So it will take you a while but chance of death is minimal, no real risk.
Or, I can make it so that leveling as far as xp to be rather low but each fight is very challenging as far as strategy and tactics. As far as death penalty I've yet to be convinced that this is not subjective and that one person's death penatly is another's person lack of penalty. For me I do hate losing. even if I lost nothing I still feel the shame of losing. Other's don't feel this shame and require a slap on the hand.
The problem I see with posts like yours is that you are being extremely narrow in your view as to what an mmo has to have or be.
doesn't have to gave grinding. It all can be quest based in that each quest objective has to be finished but none of the mobs you kill give you xp. You only get xp for finsing the quest. It also doesn't ahve to be "kill x of y". Look at DDO's quests. Most of them (except some of the kill quests) have a definitive objective and THAT is what gives you xp.
An mmo can be anything the devs want it to be. Problem is that they want players to keep subscribing so they give their games a bit of a grind. Personally I loved the grind in Linage 2. However, I would NEVER recommend that to anyone I knew because it's insane. How can you tell a person who is not already into an mmo that they have to kill things over and over? It's mad.
No reasonable person would do it.
But tell them that they have quest objectives and through it all they have to fight their way through a certain amount of enemies and they might be fine with it.
You've got to expand your thought on what an mmo "has" to be. Casual players are not adverse to challenge just because they are casual. They are adverse to spending hours and hours of time for minimal results and repetitive game play.
It seems to me that in order for you to understand "casuals" you might think of shifting your paradigm just a wee bit.
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Why do the hardcore require the MMOs to be so time-consuming? I can care about my character, even if I spend only a couple of hours per week playing with him. Are you unable to do that?
must be because they like leveling and questing, but maybe no raiding and grinding...strange.
Why do "hardcores" like wasting their time grinding, raiding, leveling, questing, etc.
How can you like questing when they are all variants of the same thing?
How do you like leveling when that is a grind?
Just because you make leveling faster doesn't make it less of a "grind"
And the game is so easy, how can you like leveling when there's no challenge or risk of dying?
Hardcore like a challenge, casuals don't. Hardcore are ok with reasonable time investments (1-2 hour per day), casuals are not.
Casuals want to level to 60 in a week, hardcore players care about the journey and don't mind it when it takes a few months to reach max level.
WoW is like:
Welfare level 80's
Welfare gear
How is any of that meaningful?
ummmmmm....
Well, time investment doesn't mean that there is a challenge.
Let's take it to an extreme example.
I can imagine a game where each thing you kill only gives you 1 xp. It takes millions to get to top level but each thing you kill is easy. So it will take you a while but chance of death is minimal, no real risk.
Or, I can make it so that leveling as far as xp to be rather low but each fight is very challenging as far as strategy and tactics. As far as death penalty I've yet to be convinced that this is not subjective and that one person's death penatly is another's person lack of penalty. For me I do hate losing. even if I lost nothing I still feel the shame of losing. Other's don't feel this shame and require a slap on the hand.
The problem I see with posts like yours is that you are being extremely narrow in your view as to what an mmo has to have or be.
doesn't have to gave grinding. It all can be quest based in that each quest objective has to be finished but none of the mobs you kill give you xp. You only get xp for finsing the quest. It also doesn't ahve to be "kill x of y". Look at DDO's quests. Most of them (except some of the kill quests) have a definitive objective and THAT is what gives you xp.
An mmo can be anything the devs want it to be. Problem is that they want players to keep subscribing so they give their games a bit of a grind. Personally I loved the grind in Linage 2. However, I would NEVER recommend that to anyone I knew because it's insane. How can you tell a person who is not already into an mmo that they have to kill things over and over? It's mad.
No reasonable person would do it.
But tell them that they have quest objectives and through it all they have to fight their way through a certain amount of enemies and they might be fine with it.
You've got to expand your thought on what an mmo "has" to be. Casual players are not adverse to challenge just because they are casual. They are adverse to spending hours and hours of time for minimal results and repetitive game play.
It seems to me that in order for you to understand "casuals" you might think of shifting your paradigm just a wee bit.
Yeah, or your MMORPG can be like.. it takes 100 kills to reahc level 80, and each kill is really easy because your game is called WoW.
What game has challenging fights again? Not WoW
EQ had challenging exp spots, any indoor zone was a challenge, any camp was a challenge. Challenge in leveling is now gone. It's been replaced with trivial & retarded quest systems. Go kill 5 bears, Go kill 10 bears, Find some hay, Go kill 5 snails, Talk to NPC in another town, Kill more snails.
Yeah, real awesome quest system. I don't want to do quests anymore, because they are retarded. There is more meaning in an MMORPG where you define your own quest then let some idiot do it. Let some idiot, who probably doesn't even play the genre define how you should play the game from 1-80. I wan't to level how I want to, not how someone at Blizzard wants me to. I don't want to follow a cheap and shitty linear quest system to level, I want to explore and find my own leveling spots, because I have a brain, and I can think, and I can find exp spots without having someone tell me where I should level all the time via quest systems.
Killing things over and over isn't bad if it is challenging. Too bad in WoW it isn't. It's a boring grind. All they've done is shorten the time it takes to get to 80. They made the grind worse than EQ because it's boring. At least when I'm leveling in EQ I could actually die when I play like shit. Think you can do that in WoW? No. My priests can go to sleep while I am MTing a boss in their instances and I would be fine. There's no challenge there.
Well, time investment doesn't mean that there is a challenge.
Let's take it to an extreme example.
I can imagine a game where each thing you kill only gives you 1 xp. It takes millions to get to top level but each thing you kill is easy. So it will take you a while but chance of death is minimal, no real risk.
Or, I can make it so that leveling as far as xp to be rather low but each fight is very challenging as far as strategy and tactics. As far as death penalty I've yet to be convinced that this is not subjective and that one person's death penatly is another's person lack of penalty. For me I do hate losing. even if I lost nothing I still feel the shame of losing. Other's don't feel this shame and require a slap on the hand.
The problem I see with posts like yours is that you are being extremely narrow in your view as to what an mmo has to have or be.
doesn't have to gave grinding. It all can be quest based in that each quest objective has to be finished but none of the mobs you kill give you xp. You only get xp for finsing the quest. It also doesn't ahve to be "kill x of y". Look at DDO's quests. Most of them (except some of the kill quests) have a definitive objective and THAT is what gives you xp.
An mmo can be anything the devs want it to be. Problem is that they want players to keep subscribing so they give their games a bit of a grind. Personally I loved the grind in Linage 2. However, I would NEVER recommend that to anyone I knew because it's insane. How can you tell a person who is not already into an mmo that they have to kill things over and over? It's mad.
No reasonable person would do it.
But tell them that they have quest objectives and through it all they have to fight their way through a certain amount of enemies and they might be fine with it.
You've got to expand your thought on what an mmo "has" to be. Casual players are not adverse to challenge just because they are casual. They are adverse to spending hours and hours of time for minimal results and repetitive game play.
It seems to me that in order for you to understand "casuals" you might think of shifting your paradigm just a wee bit.
Yeah, or your MMORPG can be like.. it takes 100 kills to reahc level 80, and each kill is really easy because your game is called WoW.
What game has challenging fights again? Not WoW
EQ had challenging exp spots, any indoor zone was a challenge, any camp was a challenge. Challenge in leveling is now gone. It's been replaced with trivial & retarded quest systems. Go kill 5 bears, Go kill 10 bears, Find some hay, Go kill 5 snails, Talk to NPC in another town, Kill more snails.
Yeah, real awesome quest system. I don't want to do quests anymore, because they are retarded. There is more meaning in an MMORPG where you define your own quest then let some idiot do it. Let some idiot, who probably doesn't even play the genre define how you should play the game from 1-80. I wan't to level how I want to, not how someone at Blizzard wants me to. I don't want to follow a cheap and shitty linear quest system to level, I want to explore and find my own leveling spots, because I have a brain, and I can think, and I can find exp spots without having someone tell me where I should level all the time via quest systems.
Killing things over and over isn't bad if it is challenging. Too bad in WoW it isn't. It's a boring grind. All they've done is shorten the time it takes to get to 80. They made the grind worse than EQ because it's boring. At least when I'm leveling in EQ I could actually die when I play like shit. Think you can do that in WoW? No. My priests can go to sleep while I am MTing a boss in their instances and I would be fine. There's no challenge there.
Did you not read a single thing I wrote? Did you not see the "paradigm shift" part?
forget what you know about quests. This seems to be a hang up for you. And stop ranting on wow as that is not your main argument. you have a problem with the idea of casual players. WoW is not the end all and be all of mmo's.
A quest is just a set of objectives. it doesn't have to have to be "kill x of y". I've already said that. this is why I used the DDO example.
It doesn't have to be a linear quest system either.
And as of now, mobs are powerups, nothing more or less. And yes, killing mobs over and over again can be tedious "more so" if they are a challenge. Reason being is that after you kill one mob or set of mobs that has all sorts of tricks and traps you then have to do it all over again and again and again. After a while that gets tiring. It's still a treadmill it's just a tricky treadmill. And maintaining momentum after each challenging mob is going to get tiring for players.
As an example I'll give you dragon age. In this game (no matter what anyone thinks about it) it is possible to run into some rather hard encounters. It is also possbile to wipe. So there is your challenge. However, doing so over and over again (if you wipe so that you have to do it over and over again) tends to get tiring. Oh, it's fun, but by no means can I emotionally (to use a word - not sure if it is the right one) do such an encounter over and over again. It just gets draining. For instance, I just finished the final fight in "Awaking". I crashed during the first run and succeeded after the 3rd run. I then thought to run it again and after loading it felt that I was a bit tired ( and drained) and felt better of it. It took a bit out of me.
It's why in these games you have boss fights and everything else. You need the balance or it gets tiring. To have a 5 minute or more fight (and actually time 5 minutes on one fight it's quite a bit of time) for each mob might be fun but one is going to do that for only so long before they need a break. That is why grinding works so well in these games, because it doesn't take 5 minutes per mob therefore the "win" each time keeps you going.
But in no way do quests have to be "get 10 quests to kill 5 of each mob and turn them in". It's just how devs have chosen to make these games. But this has nothing to do with your first statement about casuals.
As I've already said "casual players" don't necessarily want easy. They just want to do it in a reasonable amount of time and probably don't want their game to be inundated with tedium as they don't have a lot of time.
Does this mean that there aren't players who don't want to do anything but who want to parade around in top gear like a peacock? No. But that has nothign to do with being casual. That is an entirely different issue.
edit: as a point of note, there have been several developers articles on this site where the devs mention making harder fights. And what do the players do? They find fights that are easier and try to bypass the harder fights. It's only human nature to find the easiest way to do things. In Lineage 2 there was an area that was exceptionally hard, especially for mages. but the xp was decent if you could handle it because hardly anyone went there, so you had the area to yourself. And no one went there because it was so hard.
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This is the sort of stupid, idiotic argument that contributes nothing but harm to mmorpg's.
Its not "casual vs hardcore" but old timer mmo players who have very different expectations from teenagers who have grown up on XBOX and Playstion games bringing in single player expectations to the mmorpg format.
If you want hardcore, play a game based on hardcore play. Darkfall, FE or EVE. IF you want casual play, play something designed for casual play. It's as simple as that.
I also think you completely misunderstand what a casual player is. It has nothing to do with game difficulty what so ever. It comes down to time and the constraints put on them by RL responsibility. Most casuals would most likely love to have more time to play. They just don't.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're talking to a brick wall Sovrath, I've all ready spent half hour on and off trying to get that point into his head.
He sees relatively incapable of reading or understanding a whole argument and ends up picking pieces, fitting it to his derived model, and blasting off from there into some hackneyed reality.
Also seems to live in some fantasy land about EQ...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There's a difference between hardcore vs. casual play and easy vs. challenging play.
Grinding for 10 hours isn't necessarily challenging, but it is hardcore. Personally I have no interest in crap like that even if I can play for 10 hours. While many old school MMOs had challenges, they had a heck of a lot of insanely boring grinding for EVERYTHING. They also typically had a lot of time wasted traveling about, ime. Personally I don't want to waste a lot of time before I get to the fun stuff, I want to get to the fun stuff right away. I don't really think a lot of people ENJOY doing this (and it certainly isn't good game design).*
Easy vs. challenging is a much more interesting discussion, honestly, and it is also a much more interesting problem. People have different skill levels, so how to go about designing a game that is challenging to the highly skilled and also isn't impossible for those with low skills is a meaningful problem.
*And I think a lot of the time consuming crap can feel the same without being so time consuming. EQ had people camping areas for days to secure a boss mob. Well, you can have things take a day or a week to secure a boss mob without taking up a bunch of time. Say you have magical/mechanical scouts that you send out, and every now and then while you play you get updates and give orders to them (orders that have consequences, kinda like a mini-game). Eventually they find the boss mob you want to go after and you can have them keep track of it. Then you have all the time you want to assemble a group to go after it (and it is a challenging fight). I'm not saying this is a golden idea of perfection, but I am saying that casual-friendly doesn't have to mean non-challenging, and taking time doesn't have to mean grinding or being logged in all the time.
Still find it funny that almost everyone associates time with "hardcore" and "casual". So if I put my raft into Townlake and just paddle around for four hours I am more hardcore than someone who does a 45 minute Class 6 whitewater run?
Casual != Someone who wants no challenge while playing. Their dream is great rewards for minimal effort.
Hardcore != Someone who wants to overcome obstacles tougher than themselves. Their dream is to survive tasks that have very little chance of success no matter how much time they can invest.
Still find it funny that almost everyone associates time with "hardcore" and "casual". So if I put my raft into Townlake and just paddle around for four hours I am more hardcore than someone who does a 45 minute Class 6 whitewater run?
Casual != Someone who wants no challenge while playing. Their dream is great rewards for minimal effort.
Hardcore != Someone who wants to overcome obstacles tougher than themselves. Their dream is to survive tasks that have very little chance of success no matter how much time they can invest.
Syntax error => /fixed
Totally wrong.
You can play ANY popular human activity the hard way or the casual way.
Play tennis, chess, poker, footbal, soccer, a video game, a board game the casual way or the hardcore way.
That's why there are WOW pro players, sponsored and playing for 300.000 dollars price money in arena and your aunt playing for her cooking achievement.
It is only proof of one thing; the really good popular and succesful acitivities have both hardcore or casual play.
Logical.
The really pathetic ones are those "champs" that can't reach anything in their "acitivity" and still say they are hardcore....
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Yeah a couple big EQ-tilted trolls going around lately.
Should rename these types of threads, "My desires are niche, but why aren't games designed exclusively for me?"...which is, of course, an answer and a question all in one.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
So, you're saying that if I had a lvl one character that I sat down at the AH and watched for 6+ hours a day that makes me a hard core player?
Well you once again half answered it.
You did however still answer that half with what I predicted.
So, I'll make my clarifying point, which funnily enough I had all ready made, and you had to completely ignore in order to make that comment.
I said 'assuming it also uses all the other points I have made rather than a cherry picked few you might choose'.
Now what might that imply? Oh yeah that the conditions in which I have even suggested such a potential outcome for a boss hinges on other contingencies being put into effect. In my case, the boss is capable of dying in short order, but only with an infinitely humongous amount of equal parts skill and luck.
Why is it harder? Because as I said, that boss would be countering your attacks on an individual basis and against larger battle strategies. The boss would have that fabled ability to learn from the players common movements and tactics, and react to negate them, leaving them scrambling for a different strategy and mode of attack.
This doesn't include other methods I have suggested in my prior posts that you have also equally ignored.
Why i it shorter? Because it's a skilled group of individuals applying their actual ability to play well against the enemy AI rather then a bunch of half-wits that have ground out al the 'phat gear' and stats to successfully nick away at the boss mob's health until it dies before the players do.
If you notice, the defining difference, is skill. Player skill where you actually have to be able to improvise against adapting mobs that learn your strategies and equally adapt to their ever changing attack methods is weighed more heavily that how much time it takes to do X amount of damage while deflecting X amount of damage in order to die more slowly tan that which you are killing.
Your definition is flawed because you're trying to apply your system to my logic, rather than taking the system I'm laying out and applying the logic to it. You are failing to grasp the actual conditions and context of the arguments in favor of applying half-baked ideas that marry only aspects of what I say to your own conceptions.
i did not say the boss is designed to die in one second, I said it's a potential. You seem to only operate on the premise of such activities all take a specific amount of time to do, which is just not right.
I'll repeat my question too, which do you think is harder to make, a knife or a spoon?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Definitely a spoon. Sometimes my spoon comes out too big though.
Yes
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Sounds like you're a wonderful husband...
Sorry guys, it's getting late and I gotta go. Want me to find a replacement?
.......anyway it was great playing with everyone.
Not fond of upsetting? xD
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Posted by Cochran1 on 3/27/10 at 11:20:19 PM
Sorry guys, it's getting late and I gotta go. Want me to find a replacement?
.......anyway it was great playing with everyone. Just make sure that replacement isn't a casual because casuals are soooooooooooo so..terrible lol.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
Why not? MMORPG is entertaining. Downing boss with others is a different kind of entertainment than FPS. And yes, i do play FPS and I do want my VoA 10/25 fast 30 min raid. Both are fun in different ways. And developers obviously know that we (the casuals) are a big segment of the market and cater to us.
With today's more and more entertainment choices, and busy life-style, making MMOs enjoyable with less time investment is obviously the right way to go.
A rather retarded question to begin with.. just more endless rant with some weird misunderstanding of why ppl play the way they do without rly seeking an answer...
Casuals go into MC and wipe
Hardcore beat MC
Casuals say "I want to log on for 5 minutes and clear MC, please dumb it down for me"
HC are just betterat gaming. MMORPGs are now catering to the casuals because casuals want to log on to a game for 6 hours and talk in Ironforge general chat about how the game is too difficult
ummmmmm....
Well, time investment doesn't mean that there is a challenge.
Let's take it to an extreme example.
I can imagine a game where each thing you kill only gives you 1 xp. It takes millions to get to top level but each thing you kill is easy. So it will take you a while but chance of death is minimal, no real risk.
Or, I can make it so that leveling as far as xp to be rather low but each fight is very challenging as far as strategy and tactics. As far as death penalty I've yet to be convinced that this is not subjective and that one person's death penatly is another's person lack of penalty. For me I do hate losing. even if I lost nothing I still feel the shame of losing. Other's don't feel this shame and require a slap on the hand.
The problem I see with posts like yours is that you are being extremely narrow in your view as to what an mmo has to have or be.
doesn't have to gave grinding. It all can be quest based in that each quest objective has to be finished but none of the mobs you kill give you xp. You only get xp for finsing the quest. It also doesn't ahve to be "kill x of y". Look at DDO's quests. Most of them (except some of the kill quests) have a definitive objective and THAT is what gives you xp.
An mmo can be anything the devs want it to be. Problem is that they want players to keep subscribing so they give their games a bit of a grind. Personally I loved the grind in Linage 2. However, I would NEVER recommend that to anyone I knew because it's insane. How can you tell a person who is not already into an mmo that they have to kill things over and over? It's mad.
No reasonable person would do it.
But tell them that they have quest objectives and through it all they have to fight their way through a certain amount of enemies and they might be fine with it.
You've got to expand your thought on what an mmo "has" to be. Casual players are not adverse to challenge just because they are casual. They are adverse to spending hours and hours of time for minimal results and repetitive game play.
It seems to me that in order for you to understand "casuals" you might think of shifting your paradigm just a wee bit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Why do the hardcore require the MMOs to be so time-consuming? I can care about my character, even if I spend only a couple of hours per week playing with him. Are you unable to do that?
Yeah, or your MMORPG can be like.. it takes 100 kills to reahc level 80, and each kill is really easy because your game is called WoW.
What game has challenging fights again? Not WoW
EQ had challenging exp spots, any indoor zone was a challenge, any camp was a challenge. Challenge in leveling is now gone. It's been replaced with trivial & retarded quest systems. Go kill 5 bears, Go kill 10 bears, Find some hay, Go kill 5 snails, Talk to NPC in another town, Kill more snails.
Yeah, real awesome quest system. I don't want to do quests anymore, because they are retarded. There is more meaning in an MMORPG where you define your own quest then let some idiot do it. Let some idiot, who probably doesn't even play the genre define how you should play the game from 1-80. I wan't to level how I want to, not how someone at Blizzard wants me to. I don't want to follow a cheap and shitty linear quest system to level, I want to explore and find my own leveling spots, because I have a brain, and I can think, and I can find exp spots without having someone tell me where I should level all the time via quest systems.
Killing things over and over isn't bad if it is challenging. Too bad in WoW it isn't. It's a boring grind. All they've done is shorten the time it takes to get to 80. They made the grind worse than EQ because it's boring. At least when I'm leveling in EQ I could actually die when I play like shit. Think you can do that in WoW? No. My priests can go to sleep while I am MTing a boss in their instances and I would be fine. There's no challenge there.
Did you not read a single thing I wrote? Did you not see the "paradigm shift" part?
forget what you know about quests. This seems to be a hang up for you. And stop ranting on wow as that is not your main argument. you have a problem with the idea of casual players. WoW is not the end all and be all of mmo's.
A quest is just a set of objectives. it doesn't have to have to be "kill x of y". I've already said that. this is why I used the DDO example.
It doesn't have to be a linear quest system either.
And as of now, mobs are powerups, nothing more or less. And yes, killing mobs over and over again can be tedious "more so" if they are a challenge. Reason being is that after you kill one mob or set of mobs that has all sorts of tricks and traps you then have to do it all over again and again and again. After a while that gets tiring. It's still a treadmill it's just a tricky treadmill. And maintaining momentum after each challenging mob is going to get tiring for players.
As an example I'll give you dragon age. In this game (no matter what anyone thinks about it) it is possible to run into some rather hard encounters. It is also possbile to wipe. So there is your challenge. However, doing so over and over again (if you wipe so that you have to do it over and over again) tends to get tiring. Oh, it's fun, but by no means can I emotionally (to use a word - not sure if it is the right one) do such an encounter over and over again. It just gets draining. For instance, I just finished the final fight in "Awaking". I crashed during the first run and succeeded after the 3rd run. I then thought to run it again and after loading it felt that I was a bit tired ( and drained) and felt better of it. It took a bit out of me.
It's why in these games you have boss fights and everything else. You need the balance or it gets tiring. To have a 5 minute or more fight (and actually time 5 minutes on one fight it's quite a bit of time) for each mob might be fun but one is going to do that for only so long before they need a break. That is why grinding works so well in these games, because it doesn't take 5 minutes per mob therefore the "win" each time keeps you going.
But in no way do quests have to be "get 10 quests to kill 5 of each mob and turn them in". It's just how devs have chosen to make these games. But this has nothing to do with your first statement about casuals.
As I've already said "casual players" don't necessarily want easy. They just want to do it in a reasonable amount of time and probably don't want their game to be inundated with tedium as they don't have a lot of time.
Does this mean that there aren't players who don't want to do anything but who want to parade around in top gear like a peacock? No. But that has nothign to do with being casual. That is an entirely different issue.
edit: as a point of note, there have been several developers articles on this site where the devs mention making harder fights. And what do the players do? They find fights that are easier and try to bypass the harder fights. It's only human nature to find the easiest way to do things. In Lineage 2 there was an area that was exceptionally hard, especially for mages. but the xp was decent if you could handle it because hardly anyone went there, so you had the area to yourself. And no one went there because it was so hard.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
This is the sort of stupid, idiotic argument that contributes nothing but harm to mmorpg's.
Its not "casual vs hardcore" but old timer mmo players who have very different expectations from teenagers who have grown up on XBOX and Playstion games bringing in single player expectations to the mmorpg format.
If you want hardcore, play a game based on hardcore play. Darkfall, FE or EVE. IF you want casual play, play something designed for casual play. It's as simple as that.
I also think you completely misunderstand what a casual player is. It has nothing to do with game difficulty what so ever. It comes down to time and the constraints put on them by RL responsibility. Most casuals would most likely love to have more time to play. They just don't.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You're talking to a brick wall Sovrath, I've all ready spent half hour on and off trying to get that point into his head.
He sees relatively incapable of reading or understanding a whole argument and ends up picking pieces, fitting it to his derived model, and blasting off from there into some hackneyed reality.
Also seems to live in some fantasy land about EQ...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Real Hardcore gamers don't evne play MMORPGs.Real harcore gamers are still playing Pong and hate anyone who is not and considers themselves gamers.
This thread seems a bit confused.
There's a difference between hardcore vs. casual play and easy vs. challenging play.
Grinding for 10 hours isn't necessarily challenging, but it is hardcore. Personally I have no interest in crap like that even if I can play for 10 hours. While many old school MMOs had challenges, they had a heck of a lot of insanely boring grinding for EVERYTHING. They also typically had a lot of time wasted traveling about, ime. Personally I don't want to waste a lot of time before I get to the fun stuff, I want to get to the fun stuff right away. I don't really think a lot of people ENJOY doing this (and it certainly isn't good game design).*
Easy vs. challenging is a much more interesting discussion, honestly, and it is also a much more interesting problem. People have different skill levels, so how to go about designing a game that is challenging to the highly skilled and also isn't impossible for those with low skills is a meaningful problem.
*And I think a lot of the time consuming crap can feel the same without being so time consuming. EQ had people camping areas for days to secure a boss mob. Well, you can have things take a day or a week to secure a boss mob without taking up a bunch of time. Say you have magical/mechanical scouts that you send out, and every now and then while you play you get updates and give orders to them (orders that have consequences, kinda like a mini-game). Eventually they find the boss mob you want to go after and you can have them keep track of it. Then you have all the time you want to assemble a group to go after it (and it is a challenging fight). I'm not saying this is a golden idea of perfection, but I am saying that casual-friendly doesn't have to mean non-challenging, and taking time doesn't have to mean grinding or being logged in all the time.
OP:
Go into the world and tell everyone you play a computer game for 2 years or more at 2 hours a day.
They'll look upon you as a nerd.
Which idiot would play for 2 years+ one game and waste 2 hours each day playing it.
I just described MMORPG casual play to you.
Now please do have a life.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Syntax error => /fixed
Totally wrong.
You can play ANY popular human activity the hard way or the casual way.
Play tennis, chess, poker, footbal, soccer, a video game, a board game the casual way or the hardcore way.
That's why there are WOW pro players, sponsored and playing for 300.000 dollars price money in arena and your aunt playing for her cooking achievement.
It is only proof of one thing; the really good popular and succesful acitivities have both hardcore or casual play.
Logical.
The really pathetic ones are those "champs" that can't reach anything in their "acitivity" and still say they are hardcore....
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Yeah a couple big EQ-tilted trolls going around lately.
Should rename these types of threads, "My desires are niche, but why aren't games designed exclusively for me?"...which is, of course, an answer and a question all in one.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For fun.
Don't hardcore players do the same?
Am I doing it wrong?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift