An MMORPG without time investment isn't an MMORPG. You just want them to give hand outs like it is in WoW? Then what? Your character is worthless because everyone has one already.
Sick of hand outs that come with reduced investments.
An MMORPG where time investment matters more than ability is a bad MMORPG.
Simple example:
Tank-and-spank easy boss that takes 4 hours to kill.
Incredibly complicated and difficult boss that takes 1 hour to kill.
The first is clearly "hardcore", but it's all time and no challenge.
The second is "casual", and is all about the challenge.
What is about time investment?
Pre expansion WoW or post expansion WoW?
I can show up to Naxx with a bunch of newbies and clear it NP. Could I do that prior to the expansion? No
They made their game more about time investment than skill because their game has been dumbed down in the name of casuals. Yet the casuals act like they somehow reduced time commitment when it's the same thing. They've only made their game easier.
If you actually played WoW before they dumbed it down you would know that the zones take the same exact amount of time. My guild used to run AQ40 and BWL in less than 2 hours. Time investment my ass. Casuals just stunk at the game and whined. Stuck in Molten Core forever, and they made their PVE easier.
I don't remember any 4 hour bosses in "hardcore" WoW, just difficult bosses that could actually kill you.
Because they last a while, the sub rate is cheaper than a new game, I like socializing while playing, dressing up my character is fun, and many other reasons. If you play every day for ~1-2 hours you can get things done in most MMO's nowadays.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
OP i think you have put MMORPG in a box that it should not be in. 3 hour raids do not define a massively multi-player online game.
I am a casual gamer and i love MMO's due to the vast amount of options i get in a game with a really small price tag. The options per dollar ratio is absolutely unmatched by any other type of game.
I can pvp, craft, quest, socialize and dungeon crawl for 15 dollars a month. Can an fps game give me all this? i do not think so.
Your question is very narrow minded and you should really look at why YOU play MMO's
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Why do they want to play MMORPGs when they don't want to invest any time? Wouldn't FPS games be better for them, since they don't like the whole leveling, raiding, questing, etc.
They want to remove any time consuming activities from MMORPGs. After a while, MMORPGs won't have any time investment. You'll just log in with your level 80 with max gear because leveling and raiding are too time consuming for some people.
WoW is a perfect example of this, where their game has gone in the past 6 years. From 40 man 3 hour raids to raids where you just zone in and theres a boss waiting for you.
I'm not a casual, but I disagree with time consuming activities in MMORPGs that require little thought or skill. I'm not sure why you're in favor of these. Is your life honestly so empty and boring that you want to just piss away time doing things of little value to yourself? The ideal game would have activities that remain challenging through a dynamic game state, they could possibly be time consuming.
Since we don't know how to read obviously, what did you say? Did you just say you wanted dumbed down easy-mode content because Molten Core was just too hard?
I'm saying you seem to confuse the amount of time a task takes with challenge.
An MMORPG without time investment isn't an MMORPG. You just want them to give hand outs like it is in WoW? Then what? Your character is worthless because everyone has one already.
Sick of hand outs that come with reduced investments.
I agree, free handouts do diminish the sense of accomplishment from earning something and ultimately make various things worthless. However, I disagree that MMORPG is synonymous with time investment. And really, think about those items that you've "earned". Would you have been able to earn them without the massive time investment? No? Then there was no skill in obtaining them and thus no accomplishment. Time investment should never be considered an accomplishment or skill. I feel bad for the people too stupid to do the retarded dances to beat boss mobs in WoW, but the people who can shouldn't really feel all that special, they're not reacting to a dynamically changing situation or environment, they're rehearsing something they've practiced over and over.
So basically your "achievements" are diminished because they weren't achievements in the first place, you just felt like they were because you had a massive time investment over other players, and when others got to the point you were, they too were able to complete your crappy dance quests.
I'm not the one here playing WoW, so don't give me bs about doing dances in freaking newb zones.
Naxx40 before the expansions was an achievment. Had nothing to do with time investment. Players were too stupid to do zones like BWL and AQ40 and Naxx before they increased the level cap, dumbed the zones down, handed out welfare gear, etc.
Not an achievment when everything is trivial. And I didn't play WoW after they made their game trivial. Stop acting like I play WoW, thanks. Only newbies touch games like that.
Can you explain naxx40 before the expansions? Why did it have nothing to do with time investment?
The OP's anger is still misplaced in the category of gamer. He should be upset with developers...though doesn't want to address that issue due to the fact that he can't vehemently deny any counter point.
Games are meant to be fun, not work. A lot of the "hardcore" people seem to have forgotten that.
People play games because of escapism. Taking a break from work, using their free time to have fun. MMORPG's give them a very, very heavy social undertone to the game they're playing, which is simply a way to keep in touch with their friends rather than 'rot away' in their basement while playing.
Hence, "casuals" play MMORPG's, and they made WoW as big as it is now, because it put much more emphasis on the fun rather than the grind, at least compared to other MMO's.
It's not really hard to see why 'casuals' play MMO's. Ever since WoW they started to become fun rather than work, and while newer MMO's might have missed that point it's nonetheless the major reason why the game became such a success - Drawing the 'casual' crowd to it rather than the hardcore basement nerds.
Gaming has evolved very, very far from when it was only done by fat people with beards who still lived at their parents place - A stereotype, i agree, but fact is that gaming made it into popular culture far outside of the subculture it used to reside in. MMO's making this step was just a matter of time.
An MMORPG without time investment isn't an MMORPG. You just want them to give hand outs like it is in WoW? Then what? Your character is worthless because everyone has one already.
Sick of hand outs that come with reduced investments.
An MMORPG where time investment matters more than ability is a bad MMORPG.
Simple example:
Tank-and-spank easy boss that takes 4 hours to kill.
Incredibly complicated and difficult boss that takes 1 hour to kill.
The first is clearly "hardcore", but it's all time and no challenge.
The second is "casual", and is all about the challenge.
What is about time investment?
Pre expansion WoW or post expansion WoW?
I can show up to Naxx with a bunch of newbies and clear it NP. Could I do that prior to the expansion? No
They made their game more about time investment than skill because their game has been dumbed down in the name of casuals. Yet the casuals act like they somehow reduced time commitment when it's the same thing. They've only made their game easier.
1st point, Player Skill means and has meant almost nothing in MMOs since the dawn of the genre. Its all about the dice roll and item stats you have collected.
2nd point, In a game like WoW all they did was take the time investment required for raids, broke it up and distributated it across other aspects of the game. The time investment is still there, just not dedicated to a single area.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
You know, something has been bugging me for a while now...
Where did this new generation of 'Back when it was hardcore' people come from?
I see a lot of people talking about how hardcore EQ was and how they miss those days, but then you look at thier ages and a lot of them would have been between 10 and 13 years old back then.
Are they just reading old timers nostalgia posts and then assimilating the data? Did they watch an older brother/sister play these games and just fond memories of sitting next to them as they raided?
I mean I understand that a lot of us played these games like rabid crack heads when they were new, but it seems like its less of us who are chanting 'Bring back teh hardcore!' and more of this new generation who were probably more interested in Power Rangers than EQ when it was at its prime.
Hell, I have seen posts where someone of 20 talks about the glory days of pre-trammel UO...
I just want to know why there are so many new people talking about 'the good old days' than there were people playing in those days...
Anyone else notice this trend?
No.
I notice people who actually played the older games recognize that newer MMORPGs are garbage.
WoW is more time consuming than EQ. The only difference is WoW gives out welfare loot to people who just show up to the right zones. So when a casual logs on for 1 hour or whatever they are guaranteed to be able to clear any zone in the game.
In EQ they didn't hand out loot like they do now. The raids were actually challenging and fun.
The OP's anger is still misplaced in the category of gamer. He should be upset with developers...though doesn't want to address that issue due to the fact that he can't vehemently deny any counter point.
Actually the gamer is the problem, since developers wouldn't produce it if people bought it. Yet you have masses of mindless idiots who will purchase every piece of mediocre shit that a publisher releases with no care for the actual quality of the product. Most simply want to waste time to forget about their life, they don't care to be challenged in any way.
Why do they want to play MMORPGs when they don't want to invest any time? Wouldn't FPS games be better for them, since they don't like the whole leveling, raiding, questing, etc.
They want to remove any time consuming activities from MMORPGs. After a while, MMORPGs won't have any time investment. You'll just log in with your level 80 with max gear because leveling and raiding are too time consuming for some people.
WoW is a perfect example of this, where their game has gone in the past 6 years. From 40 man 3 hour raids to raids where you just zone in and theres a boss waiting for you.
I'm not a casual, but I disagree with time consuming activities in MMORPGs that require little thought or skill. I'm not sure why you're in favor of these. Is your life honestly so empty and boring that you want to just piss away time doing things of little value to yourself? The ideal game would have activities that remain challenging through a dynamic game state, they could possibly be time consuming.
Since we don't know how to read obviously, what did you say? Did you just say you wanted dumbed down easy-mode content because Molten Core was just too hard?
I'm saying you seem to confuse the amount of time a task takes with challenge.
An MMORPG without time investment isn't an MMORPG. You just want them to give hand outs like it is in WoW? Then what? Your character is worthless because everyone has one already.
Sick of hand outs that come with reduced investments.
I agree, free handouts do diminish the sense of accomplishment from earning something and ultimately make various things worthless. However, I disagree that MMORPG is synonymous with time investment. And really, think about those items that you've "earned". Would you have been able to earn them without the massive time investment? No? Then there was no skill in obtaining them and thus no accomplishment. Time investment should never be considered an accomplishment or skill. I feel bad for the people too stupid to do the retarded dances to beat boss mobs in WoW, but the people who can shouldn't really feel all that special, they're not reacting to a dynamically changing situation or environment, they're rehearsing something they've practiced over and over.
So basically your "achievements" are diminished because they weren't achievements in the first place, you just felt like they were because you had a massive time investment over other players, and when others got to the point you were, they too were able to complete your crappy dance quests.
I'm not the one here playing WoW, so don't give me bs about doing dances in freaking newb zones.
Naxx40 before the expansions was an achievment. Had nothing to do with time investment. Players were too stupid to do zones like BWL and AQ40 and Naxx before they increased the level cap, dumbed the zones down, handed out welfare gear, etc.
Not an achievment when everything is trivial. And I didn't play WoW after they made their game trivial. Stop acting like I play WoW, thanks. Only newbies touch games like that.
Can you explain naxx40 before the expansions? Why did it have nothing to do with time investment?
Like. Raids before the expansions could really kill you. The entrance trash could wipe most guilds in Naxx.
If there was MORE time investment it was only because shoddy guilds got destroyed by most of the stuff in those zones.
Now if the guild was skilled and could actually handle the content, the clear time is the same for pre and post expansion.
Lots of guilds on my server were trying MC (self acclaimed casuals). They just never got past that though, until blizzard started nerfing zones for them.
I find it easier to understand why the casual gamer plays an MMO, than it's counter part 'hardcore' gamer! Why anyone would want to invest the best part of there day; playing a computer game beyond the point of moderation is beyond my comprehension!
WoW has never been a hard game, not from day one. I don't care ow hard you think the end raids were, any good raiding guild could tell you how easy the things were.
Big monsters swarming you from a bad pull? Not a challenge, you're just playing with others who are 'challenged' or are thineself.
Boss is whooping your butt? Not a challenge, because other players have and are spanking the exact same mob that's spanking you, implying the same as above.
Fact is, this so called difficulty you refer too is entirely resulting from players that aren't that good, they're merely the majority in those that re reaching those raids, because they're the one's tat have the time to do so.
I have done the exact same raids, and since the get-go the game has ever been hard. I you understand how the system works, you can predict how most mobs will play out, how mobs will aggro, and how moss monsters will usually react, external factors like special skills learned from the first pay through being the only wrench in the system.
It's not even player skill in action I'm talking about here, just the common sense of understanding what's going on.
Those raids got easier, because the players who could run it by in large sucked. They got smaller, because there weren't enough players willing to form large raid groups. And they got shorter, because people don't have two hours to wait around to group for a raid, then three ours to kill their way monotonously through trash mobs, then finally whack a boss that at best could only be defined as a nuisance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I find it easier to understand why the casual gamer plays an MMO, than it's counter part 'hardcore' gamer! Why anyone would want to invest the best part of there day; playing a computer game beyond the point of moderation is beyond my comprehension!
I find it hard to understand why any gamer out there would bother to play any of the MMORPGs that are out there right now (yes, even Eve, specifically the combat).
WoW has never been a hard game, not from day one. I don't care ow hard you think the end raids were, any good raiding guild could tell you how easy the things were.
Big monsters swarming you from a bad pull? Not a challenge, you're just playing with others who are 'challenged' or are thineself.
Boss is whooping your butt? Not a challenge, because other players have and are spanking the exact same mob that's spanking you, implying the same as above.
Fact is, this so called difficulty you refer too is entirely resulting from players that aren't that good, they're merely the majority in those that re reaching those raids, because they're the one's tat have the time to do so.
I have done the exact same raids, and since the get-go the game has ever been hard. I you understand how the system works, you can predict how most mobs will play out, how mobs will aggro, and how moss monsters will usually react, external factors like special skills learned from the first pay through being the only wrench in the system.
It's not even player skill in action I'm talking about here, just the common sense of understanding what's going on.
Those raids got easier, because the players who could run it by in large sucked. They got smaller, because there weren't enough players willing to form large raid groups. And they got shorter, because people don't have two hours to wait around to group or a rid, then three ours to kill their way monotonously through trash mobs, then finally whack a boss that at bes could only be defined as a nuisance.
Yes, you are right.
Just like only 1 guild has beaten that lich king guy or whatever on hard mode. Because the players left just aren't that good
I can show up to Naxx with a bunch of newbies and clear it NP. Could I do that prior to the expansion? No
They made their game more about time investment than skill because their game has been dumbed down in the name of casuals. Yet the casuals act like they somehow reduced time commitment when it's the same thing. They've only made their game easier.
Still on the anti-WoW crusade, eh?
L60 Naxx40 was a tier 3 dungeon. L80 Naxx20 is tier 1.
So yeah, Naxx20 is easier. It's supposed to be, 'cos it's the level 80 equivalent of Molten Core.
Dunno about you, but my first night in Molten Core, my guild took out every boss we had time to attempt. I firmly believe that we could have cleared the entire place had we not been required to wipe out wave after wave of pointless and monotonous trash mobs between "real" fights.
A fairer comparison would be Naxx40 vs Icecrown Citadel. Remind me, how many guilds have killed the Lich King in heroic hard-mode? First time, with a bunch of newbs?
Sorry pal, none of your arguments hold any water .. you're too biased to be objective.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You know, something has been bugging me for a while now...
Where did this new generation of 'Back when it was hardcore' people come from?
I see a lot of people talking about how hardcore EQ was and how they miss those days, but then you look at thier ages and a lot of them would have been between 10 and 13 years old back then.
Are they just reading old timers nostalgia posts and then assimilating the data? Did they watch an older brother/sister play these games and just fond memories of sitting next to them as they raided?
I mean I understand that a lot of us played these games like rabid crack heads when they were new, but it seems like its less of us who are chanting 'Bring back teh hardcore!' and more of this new generation who were probably more interested in Power Rangers than EQ when it was at its prime.
Hell, I have seen posts where someone of 20 talks about the glory days of pre-trammel UO...
I just want to know why there are so many new people talking about 'the good old days' than there were people playing in those days...
Anyone else notice this trend?
No.
I notice people who actually played the older games recognize that newer MMORPGs are garbage.
WoW is more time consuming than EQ. The only difference is WoW gives out welfare loot to people who just show up to the right zones. So when a casual logs on for 1 hour or whatever they are guaranteed to be able to clear any zone in the game.
In EQ they didn't hand out loot like they do now. The raids were actually challenging and fun.
But you are blaming the 'casual' player for this and not the actual people responsible: The Game Company.
Seriously you have to understand that the game companies can give a flying turd what you or I care about when it comes to gaming. To them 'Hardcore' and 'Casual' are just meaningless buzzwords used to add spice to press releases.
They could honestly care less that you think a game is 'too easy', because according to the studies they use and the research they do, a bigger share of the overall market place likes them that way.
So in the game companies mind, you are an acceptable loss because for every person like you there are 10 more people willing to play and be happy with the game. And to top it all off, they know that no matter how much people like you whine and complain about a game you will almost always end up playing it anyway.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
WoW has never been a hard game, not from day one. I don't care ow hard you think the end raids were, any good raiding guild could tell you how easy the things were.
Big monsters swarming you from a bad pull? Not a challenge, you're just playing with others who are 'challenged' or are thineself.
Boss is whooping your butt? Not a challenge, because other players have and are spanking the exact same mob that's spanking you, implying the same as above.
Fact is, this so called difficulty you refer too is entirely resulting from players that aren't that good, they're merely the majority in those that re reaching those raids, because they're the one's tat have the time to do so.
I have done the exact same raids, and since the get-go the game has ever been hard. I you understand how the system works, you can predict how most mobs will play out, how mobs will aggro, and how moss monsters will usually react, external factors like special skills learned from the first pay through being the only wrench in the system.
It's not even player skill in action I'm talking about here, just the common sense of understanding what's going on.
Those raids got easier, because the players who could run it by in large sucked. They got smaller, because there weren't enough players willing to form large raid groups. And they got shorter, because people don't have two hours to wait around to group for a raid, then three ours to kill their way monotonously through trash mobs, then finally whack a boss that at best could only be defined as a nuisance.
I love your posts. Found a parallel to what you're saying in a fairly popular FPS (left 4 dead 2).
In the versus mode you take turns playing as survivors and the infected for each map. As survivors the game is easy, all you need to do is obey some simple rules and even if you have poor aim you can be successful, for example, don't bunch up, especially on stairs, escalators, etc, all it does is allow a charger to hit all of you. A simple easy to obey rule, and yet people completely disregard it and as a result they get stomped. Simply put, the inability to coordinate with other players can make it look like it's a hard game, but in fact it's very easy unless you're up against a really skilled team. You can find tons of players in L4D2 who will run off on their own and do retarded things, and then complain about how the game sucks or is too hard, but ultimately the problem is the player, the game is not hard at all if you use common sense (within the context of the game rules). The same kind of player exists in MMORPGs.
WoW has never been a hard game, not from day one. I don't care ow hard you think the end raids were, any good raiding guild could tell you how easy the things were.
Big monsters swarming you from a bad pull? Not a challenge, you're just playing with others who are 'challenged' or are thineself.
Boss is whooping your butt? Not a challenge, because other players have and are spanking the exact same mob that's spanking you, implying the same as above.
Fact is, this so called difficulty you refer too is entirely resulting from players that aren't that good, they're merely the majority in those that re reaching those raids, because they're the one's tat have the time to do so.
I have done the exact same raids, and since the get-go the game has ever been hard. I you understand how the system works, you can predict how most mobs will play out, how mobs will aggro, and how moss monsters will usually react, external factors like special skills learned from the first pay through being the only wrench in the system.
It's not even player skill in action I'm talking about here, just the common sense of understanding what's going on.
Those raids got easier, because the players who could run it by in large sucked. They got smaller, because there weren't enough players willing to form large raid groups. And they got shorter, because people don't have two hours to wait around to group or a rid, then three ours to kill their way monotonously through trash mobs, then finally whack a boss that at bes could only be defined as a nuisance.
Yes, you are right.
Just like only 1 guild has beaten that lich king guy or whatever on hard mode. Because the players left just aren't that good
Yeah, that's actually a rather perfect example.
You stick the only form of difficulty the game has (yay mob stat/ability boosts!) back in, and even all those 'hardcore' players that play endlessly suddenly can't pull it off.
Probably my biggest complaint about games for the longest time. Too inundated with generally incapable players. That or I set my bar too high...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You know, something has been bugging me for a while now...
Where did this new generation of 'Back when it was hardcore' people come from?
I see a lot of people talking about how hardcore EQ was and how they miss those days, but then you look at thier ages and a lot of them would have been between 10 and 13 years old back then.
Are they just reading old timers nostalgia posts and then assimilating the data? Did they watch an older brother/sister play these games and just fond memories of sitting next to them as they raided?
I mean I understand that a lot of us played these games like rabid crack heads when they were new, but it seems like its less of us who are chanting 'Bring back teh hardcore!' and more of this new generation who were probably more interested in Power Rangers than EQ when it was at its prime.
Hell, I have seen posts where someone of 20 talks about the glory days of pre-trammel UO...
I just want to know why there are so many new people talking about 'the good old days' than there were people playing in those days...
Anyone else notice this trend?
No.
I notice people who actually played the older games recognize that newer MMORPGs are garbage.
WoW is more time consuming than EQ. The only difference is WoW gives out welfare loot to people who just show up to the right zones. So when a casual logs on for 1 hour or whatever they are guaranteed to be able to clear any zone in the game.
In EQ they didn't hand out loot like they do now. The raids were actually challenging and fun.
But you are blaming the 'casual' player for this and not the actual people responsible: The Game Company.
Seriously you have to understand that the game companies can give a flying turd what you or I care about when it comes to gaming. To them 'Hardcore' and 'Casual' are just meaningless buzzwords used to add spice to press releases.
They could honestly care less that you think a game is 'too easy', because according to the studies they use and the research they do, a bigger share of the overall market place likes them that way.
So in the game companies mind, you are an acceptable loss because for every person like you there are 10 more people willing to play and be happy with the game. And to top it all off, they know that no matter how much people like you whine and complain about a game you will almost always end up playing it anyway.
I don't see why people want to play MMORPGs without challenge. People are at fault for playing games that aren't fun.
WoW isn't fun. People log on because they are addicted. They have friends etc. in the game that they talk with. It could've been any MMORPG that they were playing. It's just like people who stuck to EQ after it went downhill. They had investments in the game and didn't want to leave it.
That is why WoW is hard to kill. Because people have stuff in WoW. They can't just rehash WoW and expect WoW to die. They need to make a game that is actually tough, or do something.. Make the game different. Why are MMORPG companies so retarded? Trying to copy WoW and expecting good results?
Actually the gamer is the problem, since developers wouldn't produce it if people bought it. Yet you have masses of mindless idiots who will purchase every piece of mediocre shit that a publisher releases with no care for the actual quality of the product. Most simply want to waste time to forget about their life, they don't care to be challenged in any way.
You're not going to change the community of players by just popping out a game that's overly challenging to much of the demographic. If you want to make a very challenging game that demands skill...go ahead...you're not going to have a major release on your hands though. The largest gaming demographic is middle aged women that can sit around at home playing farmville. The environment changed and the developers changed to meet the evolution so that they could continually increase their profits. It's simple business strategy. Corporations go where the money is. MMOs were not the only or first market impacted by this change.
As far as purchasing mediocre product goes. Is the iPod really the best portable media device available? Or walmart clothes the best design/construction available? Of course not...they sell because they hit a certain market demographic. I'm not even demonizing developers here. They went with easier games because the gaming community grew and evolved into a different demographic. Why make a product that you're going to have a handful of people buy...when you can make a product that is appealing to a much larger audience. Beyond that skilled gamers will often play an easymode game so they can be around the people they enjoy spending time with. If you alienate either side...you're cutting your profits. You can also feel free to insert planned obselsence in here at any point.
What people should be crying for here is a better balance so that they players that want something challenging are actually met with that challenge all the while still making the environment engaging for the lesser skilled players. That is the quintessential problem...not what type of gamer buys or plays any given game. It's a design flaw.
Casuals play mmo's for the exact same reason a lot of hardcore players do: they want to have fun with friends and other players in a persistent world.
Only difference is that they have better things to do than chop trees and bitchslap virtual monsters 8 hours / day in order to get to the fun parts in about 2 years.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Theres no challenge in a raid. All the mob does is run the scripted AI with the same moves with the same timers. All the hardcors do is read up on how to counter it and try to beat the pattern. THAT MUST BE HARDCORE all mmos are built using the same guidelines. Ubless tjhey have a GM running that mob that is. So don't give this crap you have managed to ramble about hardcore..your not that hardcore its a agame with no end in it. If you do manage to clear the latest boss that is the supposed end game wait till next patch. wash and rinse start again. wait for someone to post on how to beat the new content.
I really think you could care less about hardcore or casual and are more concerned with trying to have and epic thread here on this crappy site.Thats why you keep coming back and bringing this post back to life.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
You know, something has been bugging me for a while now...
Where did this new generation of 'Back when it was hardcore' people come from?
I see a lot of people talking about how hardcore EQ was and how they miss those days, but then you look at thier ages and a lot of them would have been between 10 and 13 years old back then.
Are they just reading old timers nostalgia posts and then assimilating the data? Did they watch an older brother/sister play these games and just fond memories of sitting next to them as they raided?
I mean I understand that a lot of us played these games like rabid crack heads when they were new, but it seems like its less of us who are chanting 'Bring back teh hardcore!' and more of this new generation who were probably more interested in Power Rangers than EQ when it was at its prime.
Hell, I have seen posts where someone of 20 talks about the glory days of pre-trammel UO...
I just want to know why there are so many new people talking about 'the good old days' than there were people playing in those days...
Anyone else notice this trend?
No.
I notice people who actually played the older games recognize that newer MMORPGs are garbage.
WoW is more time consuming than EQ. The only difference is WoW gives out welfare loot to people who just show up to the right zones. So when a casual logs on for 1 hour or whatever they are guaranteed to be able to clear any zone in the game.
In EQ they didn't hand out loot like they do now. The raids were actually challenging and fun.
But you are blaming the 'casual' player for this and not the actual people responsible: The Game Company.
Seriously you have to understand that the game companies can give a flying turd what you or I care about when it comes to gaming. To them 'Hardcore' and 'Casual' are just meaningless buzzwords used to add spice to press releases.
They could honestly care less that you think a game is 'too easy', because according to the studies they use and the research they do, a bigger share of the overall market place likes them that way.
So in the game companies mind, you are an acceptable loss because for every person like you there are 10 more people willing to play and be happy with the game. And to top it all off, they know that no matter how much people like you whine and complain about a game you will almost always end up playing it anyway.
I don't see why people want to play MMORPGs without challenge. People are at fault for playing games that aren't fun.
WoW isn't fun. People log on because they are addicted. They have friends etc. in the game that they talk with. It could've been any MMORPG that they were playing. It's just like people who stuck to EQ after it went downhill. They had investments in the game and didn't want to leave it.
That is why WoW is hard to kill. Because people have stuff in WoW. They can't just rehash WoW and expect WoW to die. They need to make a game that is actually tough, or do something.. Make the game different. Why are MMORPG companies so retarded? Trying to copy WoW and expecting good results?
To the game company its all about the $$. Innovation is risky business so its just easier to emulate someone elses product and hope for the same success.
What made games like EQ great wasnt just the fact that they offered a bit more challenge (risky death penatiles, etc) but more of the fact that the people making the games were making something that was innovative (and that they really had no idea what they were doing because they really couldnt just google up 'MMO Design' back then...).
The companies making those MMOs really had no guide telling them what works and what doesnt. Hell most of those companies didnt even expect more than a couple thousand players playing at best.
Now MMOs are a big business. Its all about profits and subscription numbers. If making something easier might mean more players then thats what happens. Its not really the casual players fault.
Most casual players of today are yesterdays 'hardcore' players. They want the same challenge you speak of, the same level of difficulty. On top of that they want less of a time sink because even you yourself have stated that time sink doesnt equal challenge.
But as I have said, your beef lies not with the casual player, but with the company who makes the game. Because to them easy means more players means more money.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Why do they want to play MMORPGs when they don't want to invest any time? Wouldn't FPS games be better for them, since they don't like the whole leveling, raiding, questing, etc.
They want to remove any time consuming activities from MMORPGs. After a while, MMORPGs won't have any time investment. You'll just log in with your level 80 with max gear because leveling and raiding are too time consuming for some people.
WoW is a perfect example of this, where their game has gone in the past 6 years. From 40 man 3 hour raids to raids where you just zone in and theres a boss waiting for you.
Well personally I started playing UO when it was first released shortly after High School when I was 18. I played MMO's since then and almost 13 years later I still do.
I'm now coming up on the wonderful age of 31 and a few things have changed in my worldly life since I was 18. Not everyones life is simple and clean cut devoid of responsibilities or external factors where everyone can devote hours of sitting in front of a computer in a row straight and still be taking care of ones responsibilities.
Back in the day, I recall playing EQ and staring at the screen spending a few hours in a row with my Cleric shouting LFG waiting for a spot to open up in Solsek or L. Guk and it was no big deal. Nowadays a few hours is ALL I have to play if I'm lucky, or I sacrifice sleep and responsibilities just to play a game. That's just personally. Like I said not everyone is the same, if I had more downtime and fewer things to do to dedicate full straight hours into playing a game I might... but don't have the luxury of doing that anymore.
But does that mean I "am incapable of playing MMORPG's?" Hell no... but usually TIME is the biggest factor with playing a game. I just see playing a game as "something to do to pass time or to have a little bit of fun" not a "dedicated way of life" anymore.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
If they are in the game, and you don't use it, you're at a disadvantage. What a hard concept to understand
So those newbies who can't learn where things are will progress faster than those who don't use the features and remember where things are. Real level playng field.
What I don't get, is why you want dumbed down games? Is it too hard to learn where landmarks are and where zonelines are? Why don't you just whine a lot then get an auto-play feature in WoW, then you can say "Don't use the auto-play feature if you don't want it".
You guys are ridiculous, wanting features that dumb the game down and make playing it trivial. Typical casuals
Who gives a shit if they may or may not level faster than you? If that's your main motivation in playing these games then give up the whole immersion argument because in reality you don't care about that anyways.
The ridiculous notion is that you feel that everyone should have to play a game or have the exact same wants as you. Apparently you can't read either because I never said I want these things. I actually said quite the opposite far as my own personal taste. The difference is I don't expect a game simply to be catered to my tastes nor do I feel my preference in playing should be forced on everyone else.
About the only pain those types of players being handheld really tend to be is when you're puggin it and you end up with one in your group. Hell, most of the time from a PvP standpoint they're a dream come true because they're usually clueless on what they need to do unless you get zerged by a group of them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Comments
What is about time investment?
Pre expansion WoW or post expansion WoW?
I can show up to Naxx with a bunch of newbies and clear it NP. Could I do that prior to the expansion? No
They made their game more about time investment than skill because their game has been dumbed down in the name of casuals. Yet the casuals act like they somehow reduced time commitment when it's the same thing. They've only made their game easier.
If you actually played WoW before they dumbed it down you would know that the zones take the same exact amount of time. My guild used to run AQ40 and BWL in less than 2 hours. Time investment my ass. Casuals just stunk at the game and whined. Stuck in Molten Core forever, and they made their PVE easier.
I don't remember any 4 hour bosses in "hardcore" WoW, just difficult bosses that could actually kill you.
Because they last a while, the sub rate is cheaper than a new game, I like socializing while playing, dressing up my character is fun, and many other reasons. If you play every day for ~1-2 hours you can get things done in most MMO's nowadays.
Playing - EVE, Wurm
Retired - Final Fantasy XI, Anarchy Online, Mabinogi
Waiting - ArcheAge, Salem
OP i think you have put MMORPG in a box that it should not be in. 3 hour raids do not define a massively multi-player online game.
I am a casual gamer and i love MMO's due to the vast amount of options i get in a game with a really small price tag. The options per dollar ratio is absolutely unmatched by any other type of game.
I can pvp, craft, quest, socialize and dungeon crawl for 15 dollars a month. Can an fps game give me all this? i do not think so.
Your question is very narrow minded and you should really look at why YOU play MMO's
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Can you explain naxx40 before the expansions? Why did it have nothing to do with time investment?
The OP's anger is still misplaced in the category of gamer. He should be upset with developers...though doesn't want to address that issue due to the fact that he can't vehemently deny any counter point.
1st point, Player Skill means and has meant almost nothing in MMOs since the dawn of the genre. Its all about the dice roll and item stats you have collected.
2nd point, In a game like WoW all they did was take the time investment required for raids, broke it up and distributated it across other aspects of the game. The time investment is still there, just not dedicated to a single area.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
No.
I notice people who actually played the older games recognize that newer MMORPGs are garbage.
WoW is more time consuming than EQ. The only difference is WoW gives out welfare loot to people who just show up to the right zones. So when a casual logs on for 1 hour or whatever they are guaranteed to be able to clear any zone in the game.
In EQ they didn't hand out loot like they do now. The raids were actually challenging and fun.
Actually the gamer is the problem, since developers wouldn't produce it if people bought it. Yet you have masses of mindless idiots who will purchase every piece of mediocre shit that a publisher releases with no care for the actual quality of the product. Most simply want to waste time to forget about their life, they don't care to be challenged in any way.
Like. Raids before the expansions could really kill you. The entrance trash could wipe most guilds in Naxx.
If there was MORE time investment it was only because shoddy guilds got destroyed by most of the stuff in those zones.
Now if the guild was skilled and could actually handle the content, the clear time is the same for pre and post expansion.
Lots of guilds on my server were trying MC (self acclaimed casuals). They just never got past that though, until blizzard started nerfing zones for them.
I find it easier to understand why the casual gamer plays an MMO, than it's counter part 'hardcore' gamer! Why anyone would want to invest the best part of there day; playing a computer game beyond the point of moderation is beyond my comprehension!
WoW has never been a hard game, not from day one. I don't care ow hard you think the end raids were, any good raiding guild could tell you how easy the things were.
Big monsters swarming you from a bad pull? Not a challenge, you're just playing with others who are 'challenged' or are thineself.
Boss is whooping your butt? Not a challenge, because other players have and are spanking the exact same mob that's spanking you, implying the same as above.
Fact is, this so called difficulty you refer too is entirely resulting from players that aren't that good, they're merely the majority in those that re reaching those raids, because they're the one's tat have the time to do so.
I have done the exact same raids, and since the get-go the game has ever been hard. I you understand how the system works, you can predict how most mobs will play out, how mobs will aggro, and how moss monsters will usually react, external factors like special skills learned from the first pay through being the only wrench in the system.
It's not even player skill in action I'm talking about here, just the common sense of understanding what's going on.
Those raids got easier, because the players who could run it by in large sucked. They got smaller, because there weren't enough players willing to form large raid groups. And they got shorter, because people don't have two hours to wait around to group for a raid, then three ours to kill their way monotonously through trash mobs, then finally whack a boss that at best could only be defined as a nuisance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I find it hard to understand why any gamer out there would bother to play any of the MMORPGs that are out there right now (yes, even Eve, specifically the combat).
Yes, you are right.
Just like only 1 guild has beaten that lich king guy or whatever on hard mode. Because the players left just aren't that good
Still on the anti-WoW crusade, eh?
L60 Naxx40 was a tier 3 dungeon. L80 Naxx20 is tier 1.
So yeah, Naxx20 is easier. It's supposed to be, 'cos it's the level 80 equivalent of Molten Core.
Dunno about you, but my first night in Molten Core, my guild took out every boss we had time to attempt. I firmly believe that we could have cleared the entire place had we not been required to wipe out wave after wave of pointless and monotonous trash mobs between "real" fights.
A fairer comparison would be Naxx40 vs Icecrown Citadel. Remind me, how many guilds have killed the Lich King in heroic hard-mode? First time, with a bunch of newbs?
Sorry pal, none of your arguments hold any water .. you're too biased to be objective.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
But you are blaming the 'casual' player for this and not the actual people responsible: The Game Company.
Seriously you have to understand that the game companies can give a flying turd what you or I care about when it comes to gaming. To them 'Hardcore' and 'Casual' are just meaningless buzzwords used to add spice to press releases.
They could honestly care less that you think a game is 'too easy', because according to the studies they use and the research they do, a bigger share of the overall market place likes them that way.
So in the game companies mind, you are an acceptable loss because for every person like you there are 10 more people willing to play and be happy with the game. And to top it all off, they know that no matter how much people like you whine and complain about a game you will almost always end up playing it anyway.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted_p2.html
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I love your posts. Found a parallel to what you're saying in a fairly popular FPS (left 4 dead 2).
In the versus mode you take turns playing as survivors and the infected for each map. As survivors the game is easy, all you need to do is obey some simple rules and even if you have poor aim you can be successful, for example, don't bunch up, especially on stairs, escalators, etc, all it does is allow a charger to hit all of you. A simple easy to obey rule, and yet people completely disregard it and as a result they get stomped. Simply put, the inability to coordinate with other players can make it look like it's a hard game, but in fact it's very easy unless you're up against a really skilled team. You can find tons of players in L4D2 who will run off on their own and do retarded things, and then complain about how the game sucks or is too hard, but ultimately the problem is the player, the game is not hard at all if you use common sense (within the context of the game rules). The same kind of player exists in MMORPGs.
Yeah, that's actually a rather perfect example.
You stick the only form of difficulty the game has (yay mob stat/ability boosts!) back in, and even all those 'hardcore' players that play endlessly suddenly can't pull it off.
Probably my biggest complaint about games for the longest time. Too inundated with generally incapable players. That or I set my bar too high...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I don't see why people want to play MMORPGs without challenge. People are at fault for playing games that aren't fun.
WoW isn't fun. People log on because they are addicted. They have friends etc. in the game that they talk with. It could've been any MMORPG that they were playing. It's just like people who stuck to EQ after it went downhill. They had investments in the game and didn't want to leave it.
That is why WoW is hard to kill. Because people have stuff in WoW. They can't just rehash WoW and expect WoW to die. They need to make a game that is actually tough, or do something.. Make the game different. Why are MMORPG companies so retarded? Trying to copy WoW and expecting good results?
You're not going to change the community of players by just popping out a game that's overly challenging to much of the demographic. If you want to make a very challenging game that demands skill...go ahead...you're not going to have a major release on your hands though. The largest gaming demographic is middle aged women that can sit around at home playing farmville. The environment changed and the developers changed to meet the evolution so that they could continually increase their profits. It's simple business strategy. Corporations go where the money is. MMOs were not the only or first market impacted by this change.
As far as purchasing mediocre product goes. Is the iPod really the best portable media device available? Or walmart clothes the best design/construction available? Of course not...they sell because they hit a certain market demographic. I'm not even demonizing developers here. They went with easier games because the gaming community grew and evolved into a different demographic. Why make a product that you're going to have a handful of people buy...when you can make a product that is appealing to a much larger audience. Beyond that skilled gamers will often play an easymode game so they can be around the people they enjoy spending time with. If you alienate either side...you're cutting your profits. You can also feel free to insert planned obselsence in here at any point.
What people should be crying for here is a better balance so that they players that want something challenging are actually met with that challenge all the while still making the environment engaging for the lesser skilled players. That is the quintessential problem...not what type of gamer buys or plays any given game. It's a design flaw.
Casuals play mmo's for the exact same reason a lot of hardcore players do: they want to have fun with friends and other players in a persistent world.
Only difference is that they have better things to do than chop trees and bitchslap virtual monsters 8 hours / day in order to get to the fun parts in about 2 years.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Theres no challenge in a raid. All the mob does is run the scripted AI with the same moves with the same timers. All the hardcors do is read up on how to counter it and try to beat the pattern. THAT MUST BE HARDCORE all mmos are built using the same guidelines. Ubless tjhey have a GM running that mob that is. So don't give this crap you have managed to ramble about hardcore..your not that hardcore its a agame with no end in it. If you do manage to clear the latest boss that is the supposed end game wait till next patch. wash and rinse start again. wait for someone to post on how to beat the new content.
I really think you could care less about hardcore or casual and are more concerned with trying to have and epic thread here on this crappy site.Thats why you keep coming back and bringing this post back to life.
How many delicate flowers have you met in Counterstrike?
I got a case of beer and a chainsaw waiting for me at home after work.
To the game company its all about the $$. Innovation is risky business so its just easier to emulate someone elses product and hope for the same success.
What made games like EQ great wasnt just the fact that they offered a bit more challenge (risky death penatiles, etc) but more of the fact that the people making the games were making something that was innovative (and that they really had no idea what they were doing because they really couldnt just google up 'MMO Design' back then...).
The companies making those MMOs really had no guide telling them what works and what doesnt. Hell most of those companies didnt even expect more than a couple thousand players playing at best.
Now MMOs are a big business. Its all about profits and subscription numbers. If making something easier might mean more players then thats what happens. Its not really the casual players fault.
Most casual players of today are yesterdays 'hardcore' players. They want the same challenge you speak of, the same level of difficulty. On top of that they want less of a time sink because even you yourself have stated that time sink doesnt equal challenge.
But as I have said, your beef lies not with the casual player, but with the company who makes the game. Because to them easy means more players means more money.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Well personally I started playing UO when it was first released shortly after High School when I was 18. I played MMO's since then and almost 13 years later I still do.
I'm now coming up on the wonderful age of 31 and a few things have changed in my worldly life since I was 18. Not everyones life is simple and clean cut devoid of responsibilities or external factors where everyone can devote hours of sitting in front of a computer in a row straight and still be taking care of ones responsibilities.
Back in the day, I recall playing EQ and staring at the screen spending a few hours in a row with my Cleric shouting LFG waiting for a spot to open up in Solsek or L. Guk and it was no big deal. Nowadays a few hours is ALL I have to play if I'm lucky, or I sacrifice sleep and responsibilities just to play a game. That's just personally. Like I said not everyone is the same, if I had more downtime and fewer things to do to dedicate full straight hours into playing a game I might... but don't have the luxury of doing that anymore.
But does that mean I "am incapable of playing MMORPG's?" Hell no... but usually TIME is the biggest factor with playing a game. I just see playing a game as "something to do to pass time or to have a little bit of fun" not a "dedicated way of life" anymore.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Who gives a shit if they may or may not level faster than you? If that's your main motivation in playing these games then give up the whole immersion argument because in reality you don't care about that anyways.
The ridiculous notion is that you feel that everyone should have to play a game or have the exact same wants as you. Apparently you can't read either because I never said I want these things. I actually said quite the opposite far as my own personal taste. The difference is I don't expect a game simply to be catered to my tastes nor do I feel my preference in playing should be forced on everyone else.
About the only pain those types of players being handheld really tend to be is when you're puggin it and you end up with one in your group. Hell, most of the time from a PvP standpoint they're a dream come true because they're usually clueless on what they need to do unless you get zerged by a group of them.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.