Wait, I'm not sure I understand what's happening. Can someone explain this for me? Really simply? I got auto-renew, but how is it bad. Most MMO's have an auto-renew feature. Did they not sign up for anything? I mean, I know for at least a few MMOs I've payed for the game and they took my card number and put it down to pay for the time after the free month unless I cancelled. Is this any different?
what is going on is that they added an auto renew after many people already payed for the game. So people that do not want to play this game anymore are/might get charged and they do not know it. Really the big deal is that SV did not notify that this feature was added.
Oh. Well a lot of games have that. They should just tell everyone to cancel their subscription if they don't want to play. Simple as that. I hope they do that. Most people will notice it anyway. Unless they don't actually follow their credit card bill. : in which case I have a whole nother speech for them. :P
Name ONE game that has a subscription set up for you without you actually choosing to subscribe.
A lot of games actually do that such as the SOE games like an original poster has said however SOE does state at the bottom that you will be charge unless you cancel. Which is why all SV has to do is to notify everyone that they will be billed.
Lets get one false statement put to rest here guys. Yes it is true that you have to agree with a auto-renew feature however there is a way that makes it so you do not have to do that by selecting the option. A company can auto renew you IF they tell you that you when you are putting in your information that you will be billed after your time is up. So you are agreeing by giving your CC info to the company.
what you fail to realize or read dude, people are saying it wasnt originally avialable, it was put in later. so how can a person opt out if they have no option to do so? come on tell me if you know. if not then move on, its illegal to hve no opt out feature then put in later and then charge a person for the payment. it is in fact illegal, or they hvae to give you an announcement that you will be charged with this new feature that has been enabled.
What you fail to realize dude is that it does not become illegal until they actually charge you! Also yes I do realize that many people do not know about this added feature so this is not a case about if you were asked or not this is a case about making a announcement and sending out notifications about this added feature to the payments.
you guys are jumping the gun WAY TOO EARLY! However it would been nicer if you just notified people about this instead of TROLLING about it.
Then why didnt they just dump the whole auto renew thing and then send announcements to people saying that they should set up a subscription if they wanted to play the game?
Im sorry, but there is no excuse you can make for what they are doing.
Yeah I do not understand that either however I am not going to go and say a company is doing something illegal when they have not done anything illegal. That is my problem with some of the post right now. You guys are calling this action illegal however it is not illegal until it has actually happened. It does not take a lawyer to know this. If you were to go to a lawyer right now and sue them you would lose because for now it is LEGAL.
Don't get me wrong I do agree that this is unethical and the way they are doing it is really poor. However we can not cry wolf until it actually happens because then it just looks like you are trolling and trying to ripe at the company every little move they do.
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
Wait, I'm not sure I understand what's happening. Can someone explain this for me? Really simply? I got auto-renew, but how is it bad. Most MMO's have an auto-renew feature. Did they not sign up for anything? I mean, I know for at least a few MMOs I've payed for the game and they took my card number and put it down to pay for the time after the free month unless I cancelled. Is this any different?
When we pre-ordered the game, we did not have the OPTION to sign up for a subscription.
SV decided that they wanted us to subscribe without us choosing to or not. Basically they are going to start billing people that never actually said when/if they wanted to subscribe at all, much less choose a subscription plan.
And without letting people know of the automatic subscription and automatic renewal -- they are doing something illegal because they are charging you without informing you or giving you any options.
The key issue here is you're speaking without knowing the facts yourself. They are saying in order to be charged you first have to select a payment option and subscription plan. Now since there was no option for this when you pre-ordered you never selected a subsciption plan. If what they're saying is true, you will not be charged.
Of course that's assuming the info Agricola posted was true. Which I believe it is as I've seen the guy post around here for years. I've never seen him posting dishonest posts, or acting like some sort of fanbot.
The whole problem with this discussion is that it's all based on assumption. Since nothing has happened of yet, there's little to discuss without basing it all on conjecture.
We'll have to wait and see, as the discussion can't really go any farther until we know what is actually going to happen. We won't know that until it happens.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wait, I'm not sure I understand what's happening. Can someone explain this for me? Really simply? I got auto-renew, but how is it bad. Most MMO's have an auto-renew feature. Did they not sign up for anything? I mean, I know for at least a few MMOs I've payed for the game and they took my card number and put it down to pay for the time after the free month unless I cancelled. Is this any different?
The problem is people pre-ordered the game and haven't agreed to anything else. MMO's have you setup and agree to a subsciption and even have you assign the payment method. What SV has done is bypassed all this and simply acted as if you had agreed to pay and play and they even went as far to choose your payment method for you.
This is bad because many people have written MO off and won't be looking back. This means they have no idea there setup to pay for MO wether they have agreed to it or not and they have no idea there is a need to cancel.
It's different because every other MMO has you not only set up an account and agree to pay. This way you know exactly whats going on with your money and there is no room for dispute later. While 15 dollars won't make or break the players (I hope not) and doesn't seem like a big deal it leaves SV wide open for all kinds of back lash. They were already hit hard when numerous people began with the charge backs, with what has the potential of happening with the auto renew without concent, SV will likely not be able to accept credit card payments anymore when all is said and done if they continue on this path.
Wait, I'm not sure I understand what's happening. Can someone explain this for me? Really simply? I got auto-renew, but how is it bad. Most MMO's have an auto-renew feature. Did they not sign up for anything? I mean, I know for at least a few MMOs I've payed for the game and they took my card number and put it down to pay for the time after the free month unless I cancelled. Is this any different?
what is going on is that they added an auto renew after many people already payed for the game. So people that do not want to play this game anymore are/might get charged and they do not know it. Really the big deal is that SV did not notify that this feature was added.
Oh. Well a lot of games have that. They should just tell everyone to cancel their subscription if they don't want to play. Simple as that. I hope they do that. Most people will notice it anyway. Unless they don't actually follow their credit card bill. : in which case I have a whole nother speech for them. :P
Name ONE game that has a subscription set up for you without you actually choosing to subscribe.
A lot of games actually do that such as the SOE games like an original poster has said however SOE does state at the bottom that you will be charge unless you cancel. Which is why all SV has to do is to notify everyone that they will be billed.
SOE games like what, exactly? You mean games that have no physical product? No preorder? The ones that state CLEARLY that "if you enter your information you will be billed at a recurring rate?"
This is not at ALL what is happening here and with SV. SV knows that if they don't set up the auto-renew by default, basically NOBODY is going to subscribe to MO. Who would pay for a game in this state? Very, very few people. It's already clear if you look at the people changing their preferences on the MO main site.
They don't have to "inform" people, they have to turn it off entirely. Why? Because the customer NEVER agreed to subscribe, at ALL. They can't say "well we are going to subscribe you but you can turn it off" -- they have to turn it off to begin with, and ASK the customer to set up a subscription.
And honestly, I hope they don't -- just so they get sued to kingdom come.
UHmm AOC does just that and all SOE games do, just about every mmo I've played does. Once you enter cc details on your payment options it is set to auto renew unless you cancel. Come to think of it I've never bought an MMO I didn't have to subscribe to (enter cc) in order to redeem my first free thirty days.
So you are claiming that by simply purchasing the game... AoC and SoE don't mention you will be enrolled in a recuring subscription and just start billing you? Really? That has never been my experience...
Of course when you go to play the live game for the first time most companies will ASK YOU to signup for a subscription and require that you enter your billing info and chose a plan. VERY different from what happened here.
No, did you even read the post I was quoting? The guy was saying he's never played an MMO he bought that he had to enter CC info into (subscribe) before he could play. I was correcting him, and adding I've never played a game I didn't have to.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
Please read the TOS which was published the day before pre0orders went live:
Note: It CLEARLY states that once you chose your subscription method and interval you will automatically be charged. As those people who simply pre-ordered never chose a subscription method or interval the company is seemingly not following it's own TOS...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Wait, I'm not sure I understand what's happening. Can someone explain this for me? Really simply? I got auto-renew, but how is it bad. Most MMO's have an auto-renew feature. Did they not sign up for anything? I mean, I know for at least a few MMOs I've payed for the game and they took my card number and put it down to pay for the time after the free month unless I cancelled. Is this any different?
what is going on is that they added an auto renew after many people already payed for the game. So people that do not want to play this game anymore are/might get charged and they do not know it. Really the big deal is that SV did not notify that this feature was added.
Oh. Well a lot of games have that. They should just tell everyone to cancel their subscription if they don't want to play. Simple as that. I hope they do that. Most people will notice it anyway. Unless they don't actually follow their credit card bill. : in which case I have a whole nother speech for them. :P
Name ONE game that has a subscription set up for you without you actually choosing to subscribe.
Well a lot of games take your credit card number when you play the trial or something and tell you you will be paying for a 15$ subscription unless you cancel it before the trial is over. This has happened to me a bunch of times. I'm not sure what games exactly (or at least I can't name them without second guessing my memory). I think WAR did that at one point, WoW maybe....but I'm not entirely sure. There were more. Maybe AoC. It's happened more than twice.
Slash that! I remember now! When I bought WoW and AoC and WAR they all made me give my creditcard to charge me after the first free month. That was it. They were going to charge me in a recurring payment after the first free month.
It was probably in the text somewhere. I mean, I'm not exactly going to read through the WHOLE text for the ToS and EVERYTHING they provided upon purchase. And if it wasn't provided, then they should be sued. But I'm not going to read through all that just to make a point about something that doesn't really concern me anyway. :P
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
Please read the TOS which was published the day before pre0orders went live:
Note: It CLEARLY states that once you chose your subscription method and interval you will automatically be charged. As those people who simply pre-ordered never chose a subscription method or interval the company is seemingly not following it's own TOS...
This takes me back to my second point in this thread, you're assuming they aren't following their TOS. As we do not know who will be charged and who won't be. We can argue this point back and forth for the next 30 days, there will be no right answer until we know what is going to happen. Which we do not know yet, I don't deal in assumptions, so I'm not going to add to the rabid speculating going on.
However I will say if (that's a big IF) they do charge people who don't know they are going to be charged, that's very unethical behavior. The problem is they haven't done that yet. You seem to be wanting to hold their feet to the fire for something they haven't done (yet). I think that may be what some people are taking issue with. With you and the others posting history, who can blame them really for getting a tad upset about that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
Please read the TOS which was published the day before pre0orders went live:
Note: It CLEARLY states that once you chose your subscription method and interval you will automatically be charged. As those people who simply pre-ordered never chose a subscription method or interval the company is seemingly not following it's own TOS...
This takes me back to my second point in this thread, you're assuming they aren't following their TOS. As we do not know who will be charged and who won't be. We can argue this point back and forth for the next 30 days, there will be no right answer until we know what is going to happen. Which we do not know yet, I don't deal in assumptions, so I'm not going to add to the rabid speculating going on.
However I will say if (that's a big IF) they do charge people who don't know they are going to be charged, that's very unethical behavior. The problem is they haven't done that yet. You seem to be wanting to hold their feet to the fire for something they haven't done (yet). I think that may be what some people are taking issue with. With you and the others posting history, who can blame them really for getting a tad upset about that?
Given the fact that they have already set up the system in such a manner to auto-renew and STATED it as well, speaking out about it actually helps protect people that did not know or were not aware that SV would stoop to such unethical behavior, because they wrote off the game many moons ago.
Oddly enough, people who did chargebacks on their card -- STILL GOT THE GAME. So the odds are very high that those people who thought they were done and over with from SV will probably get billed again too.
If a mugger was coming at you with a knife, would you say "well he hasn't done anything wrong yet"?
That's what SV is doing. They are coming for your money and if you don't say something, your money is as good as gone anyway.
Also, to add to my last post, just because the auto-renewal feature is turned on in my account does not mean they will be charging me. It could simply mean that if I do select a monthly subscription rate, they will automatically renew it whenever it runs out. I could choose to cancel that and resub manually if I wish. Again, we need to wait for real proof.
People talking about suing, please stay on topic of the thread.
That really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't mean to be rude, but it's just not logical. What function could "auto-renewal" serve without something to renew?
I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, given that the game isn't released yet and nothing's really set into motion. It still doesn't change the fact that this all looks pretty shitty from a 3rd-person perspective, such as my own.
It makes perfect sense if you read my last post where I quoted their term & conditions that WERE available from the first pre-order.
Edit:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your
account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your
subscription. You may do so at any time by logging onto the "account management" site on
www.mortalonline.com, and there use the "cancel subscription" option. Your account will stay open
until the end of the current billing cycle."
In terms and conditions PDF on the side of the account creation page. Dated 2009-07-13, the day pre-orders opened up. Maybe we should wait until some real proof comes up because as far as I'm concerned when I pre-ordered I didn't select any method and right there they clearly state "once you choose a subscription method".
OK, despite whether or not orther mmos do this is beside the point. The point is that you are accusing a company of doing something illegal just because they go about the process of handling subscriptions differently. At some point I'm sure these people agreed to this, just because they don't remember or they didn't take the time to read the fine print doesn't change the fact that they agreed to it.
That's just it.. they DIDN'T agree to it. If you have information that you would like to share on the matter please link it. Otherwise what you are saying is incorrect.
(Sorry once more for quoting this particular message, haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes and this just so happened to be the last message when I first read this.)
Does someone happen to have the original terms and conditions agreement? The present one (dated to mid-July) quite clearly says that you do accept on continuous subscription if you do your order using either credit or debit card and set your subscription interval. Considering that the shop is opened 29th of June there either is no prior document or prior document has been rendered null and void by this later document. In either case, the new agreement has to be sent to clientele and they must be given due time for response. If this is not done, then it is most evident that the new contract could not have entered into force.
Let us suppose that such a notification was sent. If the client decides that the new agreement is something that he cannot agree on he must act accordingly. In such a case, the client is entitled for a full re-fund as the service they purchased was not consumed during the contractless or earlier contract period (time from 29th June to 13th of July). If, on the other hand, the client does not react it means that he will have entered into a new agreement with Star Vault and, thus, the new terms and conditions apply. It is completely legal but if you feel that you weren't given notice or a proper time to react you might claim that there was a procedural error. However, present terms and conditions agreement has been in use for more than nine months by now and therefore it might be that you have already agreed the new terms through silent assent.
All in all, there are a number of assumptions that are not cleared on this particular thread. Hence, I do think that the first step ought to be to verify what did the original pre-order clients agree on. If there was no original agreement on terms and conditions and the later version of said agreement was not sent to clients who had purchased the game, then it is evident that there is no contract over terms and conditions between said clients and Star Vault. In that particular scenario, it is relatively clear that Star Vault could not have possibly changed such an important part of their contract without an assent from their clients, and, therefore, client cannot be asked to pay a monthly fee without such consent. It is not per se illegal or unethical as stated on this thread, it is moreso that there is no agreement to start with. As such, enterprise is solely responsible from any damages caused to client (i.e. money paid on subscription that is not used) due to consumer law protection for the consumer against those considered professionals, in this case corporation called Star Vault, have heightened protection.
And finally, there seems to be some mis-conceptions from the legal system in Sweden. First, there will most certainly be no punitive remedies; you are entitled to what you have lost not what they have gained by their oversight. Second, there is no equity system in use as in common law and hence the validity of an agreement has fairly little to do what you might call unethical. I am not expert on Swedish law (the law applicable to this particular case) but I'd wager that an act titled "lag om avtal och andra rättshandlingar på förmögenhetsrättens område" is likely the place where you should look for the possibly reasons why there is no contract between you as a customer and Star Vault as a company, especially its third chapter titled "om rättshandlingars ogiltighet". Other acts and laws that might apply are those from protection of a consumer that are partly of common European origin (minimum level set by a directive) and all special laws touching the subject matter of providing a service and methods of payment.
And honestly, I hope they don't -- just so they get sued to kingdom come.
You can't sue that which has no money, but this crosses the line into theft and fraud so, at least in the US, executives of SV will go to jail if they actually go through with these auto-renews.
Given the fact that they have already set up the system in such a manner to auto-renew and STATED it as well, speaking out about it actually helps protect people that did not know or were not aware that SV would stoop to such unethical behavior, because they wrote off the game many moons ago.
Oddly enough, people who did chargebacks on their card -- STILL GOT THE GAME. So the odds are very high that those people who thought they were done and over with from SV will probably get billed again too.
If a mugger was coming at you with a knife, would you say "well he hasn't done anything wrong yet"?
That's what SV is doing. They are coming for your money and if you don't say something, your money is as good as gone anyway.
ROFL, sorry to laugh but I couldn't help it.
You're comparing this to a mugger coming at me with a knife? Really? Hyperbole much?
Personally I have nothing to worry about, as i don't pre-order games just because they sound good. What I would do (if I had pre-ordered) is what I do with all games that require CC's and monthly renewal when I'm done with them. Check the account page for any pending charges and subsequently cancel my subscription. I do this for every trial I take or beta I play as well, if it required a CC.
Sure speaking out about it is fine, if it's about awareness, forgive me if I didn't assume you're doing so for such a purpose. What's not fine is speaking before the facts are in, which is all I was saying.
Should I jump in line behind you, for the next Sv roast? Nope, not for this anyway (yet).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
Please read the TOS which was published the day before pre0orders went live:
Note: It CLEARLY states that once you chose your subscription method and interval you will automatically be charged. As those people who simply pre-ordered never chose a subscription method or interval the company is seemingly not following it's own TOS...
Did you have to register an account and CC info for the preorder? In that case I'd say you have agreed to the "standard" billing schedule (I assume 15$ from registered CC once a month). To quote the ToS:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
That's just it.. they DIDN'T agree to it. If you have information that you would like to share on the matter please link it. Otherwise what you are saying is incorrect.
(Sorry once more for quoting this particular message, haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes and this just so happened to be the last message when I first read this.)
Does someone happen to have the original terms and conditions agreement? The present one (dated to mid-July) quite clearly says that you do accept on continuous subscription if you do your order using either credit or debit card and set your subscription interval. Considering that the shop is opened 29th of June there either is no prior document or prior document has been rendered null and void by this later document. In either case, the new agreement has to be sent to clientele and they must be given due time for response. If this is not done, then it is most evident that the new contract could not have entered into force.
That is the original document as the store opened July 14th.
Note that the document clearly describes 2 triggers which will result in you being enrolled in a recurring subscription. You must choose a subscription method and interval. There is no ambiguity here. It clearly says you must do both of these things.
Neither was done. People pre-ordered a game. There was no screen where you chose a subscription method or interval. Since this was not done, it is clear that people should NOT be auto enrolled in their subscription service.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Did you have to register an account and CC info for the preorder? In that case I'd say you have agreed to the "standard" billing schedule (I assume 15$ from registered CC once a month). To quote the ToS:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
You had to give them a method of payment to purchase the game. You at no time had to chose a subscription method or interval. The TOS clearly and unambiguously states you must do both but neither happened.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Did you have to register an account and CC info for the preorder? In that case I'd say you have agreed to the "standard" billing schedule (I assume 15$ from registered CC once a month). To quote the ToS:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
You had to give them a method of payment to purchase the game. You at no time had to chose a subscription method or interval. The TOS clearly and unambiguously states you must do both but neither happened.
I guess that would fall into the "finish registering your account" statement in the ToS. It might be clearer if it is quoted how a lawyer would: "(...)finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
That's just it.. they DIDN'T agree to it. If you have information that you would like to share on the matter please link it. Otherwise what you are saying is incorrect.
(Sorry once more for quoting this particular message, haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes and this just so happened to be the last message when I first read this.)
Does someone happen to have the original terms and conditions agreement? The present one (dated to mid-July) quite clearly says that you do accept on continuous subscription if you do your order using either credit or debit card and set your subscription interval. Considering that the shop is opened 29th of June there either is no prior document or prior document has been rendered null and void by this later document. In either case, the new agreement has to be sent to clientele and they must be given due time for response. If this is not done, then it is most evident that the new contract could not have entered into force.
That is the original document as the store opened July 14th.
Note that the document clearly describes 2 triggers which will result in you being enrolled in a recurring subscription. You must choose a subscription method and interval. There is no ambiguity here. It clearly says you must do both of these things.
Neither was done. People pre-ordered a game. There was no screen where you chose a subscription method or interval. Since this was not done, it is clear that people should NOT be auto enrolled in their subscription service.
If there is no other document then I'd end up to totally opposite conclusion; you as a matter of fact were not pre-ordering the game but pre-ordering the game service that they do provide. As the majority of a cost from playing an MMOG comes from paying monthly subscription fees the main product is then the service of keeping the servers up and running and the game available. Hence, you ordered the service and the interval was one month as that is the duration of the time you initially purchased together with the game client. I guess that there can be justifiable reasons to interpret it differently but that's how I would read that particular agreement. Is it clear and evident for everyone, certainly not, but I would not consider it illegal either.
If there is no other document then I'd end up to totally opposite conclusion; you as a matter of fact were not pre-ordering the game but pre-ordering the game service that they do provide. As the majority of a cost from playing an MMOG comes from paying monthly subscription fees the main product is then the service of keeping the servers up and running and the game available. Hence, you ordered the service and the interval was one month as that is the duration of the time you initially purchased together with the game client. I guess that there can be justifiable reasons to interpret it differently but that's how I would read that particular agreement. Is it clear and evident for everyone, certainly not, but I would not consider it illegal either.
100% incorrect. My receipt says I purchased 1 box containing DVD Mortal Online and charged me $70.
How can you conclude that if neither of the 2 triggers clearly outlined in the TOS are followed that people should still be auto subscribed. Where do you even see an interval on one month listed in that document? It says you have to chose one.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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You weren't even able to subscribe when you pre-ordered the game. YOU STILL CAN'T EVEN SUBSCRIBE YET. So how the hell do you do what you said you do? You can't. Lies.
You weren't even able to subscribe when you pre-ordered the game. YOU STILL CAN'T EVEN SUBSCRIBE YET. So how the hell do you do what you said you do? You can't. Lies.
You can't subscribe yet? If that is the case WTH is this thread about?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You weren't even able to subscribe when you pre-ordered the game. YOU STILL CAN'T EVEN SUBSCRIBE YET. So how the hell do you do what you said you do? You can't. Lies.
You can't subscribe yet? If that is the case WTH is this thread about?
It's about the possibility, that maybe one day in the future, SV might be charging customers without their consent, perhaps.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
If there is no other document then I'd end up to totally opposite conclusion; you as a matter of fact were not pre-ordering the game but pre-ordering the game service that they do provide. As the majority of a cost from playing an MMOG comes from paying monthly subscription fees the main product is then the service of keeping the servers up and running and the game available. Hence, you ordered the service and the interval was one month as that is the duration of the time you initially purchased together with the game client. I guess that there can be justifiable reasons to interpret it differently but that's how I would read that particular agreement. Is it clear and evident for everyone, certainly not, but I would not consider it illegal either.
100% incorrect. My receipt says I purchased 1 box containing DVD Mortal Online and charged me $70.
How can you conclude that if neither of the 2 triggers clearly outlined in the TOS are followed that people should still be auto subscribed. Where do you even see an interval on one month listed in that document? It says you have to chose one.
As said, I can agree to disagree. I just do think that when you did pre-order the game you were living under the premiss that not only do you get access to a game's pre-release content (i.e. beta) but you are also given access to the game's servers whence the game releases. This period of access you were promised was to my understanding one month which led me to my conclusion. A somewhat analogical situation was with Aion's pre-orders where you could not access your pre-order free time without accepting to enter your credit card information (that you could later on erase) and this was not, many say, sufficiently underlined before the players made their pre-order.
We can safely say that they should have made their stand more clear, but calling their position unethical or illegal assumes that their sole purpose was to benefit from this confusion, something which I would not be ready to state based on this evidence alone.
Comments
A lot of games actually do that such as the SOE games like an original poster has said however SOE does state at the bottom that you will be charge unless you cancel. Which is why all SV has to do is to notify everyone that they will be billed.
So let me see if I get this correctly: You were so eager that you went ahead and made a preorder for a good which consists of a one time payment for a product and a subscription for its use. The company has at a later point enabled the subscription choices and lept to the conclusion that people so eager for a product that they are willing to preorder will most likely wish to subscribe to the service. As noone has yet officially been informed or charged a few question arises:
-Was there any fine print about this topic?
-Is the company planning on informing the preorder customers they have been put on autorenewal?
-Would the company actually charge at due date?
-Is the company within its right to assume people preordering will want to subscribe?
As the answers to the middle questions are unknown we are left with the first and final ones. If there is any fine print the whole thing is a moot point. As for the last one, though one can disagree with the customer service it entails, it's a valid argument.
The key issue here is you're speaking without knowing the facts yourself. They are saying in order to be charged you first have to select a payment option and subscription plan. Now since there was no option for this when you pre-ordered you never selected a subsciption plan. If what they're saying is true, you will not be charged.
Of course that's assuming the info Agricola posted was true. Which I believe it is as I've seen the guy post around here for years. I've never seen him posting dishonest posts, or acting like some sort of fanbot.
The whole problem with this discussion is that it's all based on assumption. Since nothing has happened of yet, there's little to discuss without basing it all on conjecture.
We'll have to wait and see, as the discussion can't really go any farther until we know what is actually going to happen. We won't know that until it happens.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is people pre-ordered the game and haven't agreed to anything else. MMO's have you setup and agree to a subsciption and even have you assign the payment method. What SV has done is bypassed all this and simply acted as if you had agreed to pay and play and they even went as far to choose your payment method for you.
This is bad because many people have written MO off and won't be looking back. This means they have no idea there setup to pay for MO wether they have agreed to it or not and they have no idea there is a need to cancel.
It's different because every other MMO has you not only set up an account and agree to pay. This way you know exactly whats going on with your money and there is no room for dispute later. While 15 dollars won't make or break the players (I hope not) and doesn't seem like a big deal it leaves SV wide open for all kinds of back lash. They were already hit hard when numerous people began with the charge backs, with what has the potential of happening with the auto renew without concent, SV will likely not be able to accept credit card payments anymore when all is said and done if they continue on this path.
SOE games like what, exactly? You mean games that have no physical product? No preorder? The ones that state CLEARLY that "if you enter your information you will be billed at a recurring rate?"
This is not at ALL what is happening here and with SV. SV knows that if they don't set up the auto-renew by default, basically NOBODY is going to subscribe to MO. Who would pay for a game in this state? Very, very few people. It's already clear if you look at the people changing their preferences on the MO main site.
They don't have to "inform" people, they have to turn it off entirely. Why? Because the customer NEVER agreed to subscribe, at ALL. They can't say "well we are going to subscribe you but you can turn it off" -- they have to turn it off to begin with, and ASK the customer to set up a subscription.
And honestly, I hope they don't -- just so they get sued to kingdom come.
No, did you even read the post I was quoting? The guy was saying he's never played an MMO he bought that he had to enter CC info into (subscribe) before he could play. I was correcting him, and adding I've never played a game I didn't have to.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Please read the TOS which was published the day before pre0orders went live:
https://account.mortalonline.com/public/pdf/terms_conditions.pdf
Note: It CLEARLY states that once you chose your subscription method and interval you will automatically be charged. As those people who simply pre-ordered never chose a subscription method or interval the company is seemingly not following it's own TOS...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Well a lot of games take your credit card number when you play the trial or something and tell you you will be paying for a 15$ subscription unless you cancel it before the trial is over. This has happened to me a bunch of times. I'm not sure what games exactly (or at least I can't name them without second guessing my memory). I think WAR did that at one point, WoW maybe....but I'm not entirely sure. There were more. Maybe AoC. It's happened more than twice.
Slash that! I remember now! When I bought WoW and AoC and WAR they all made me give my creditcard to charge me after the first free month. That was it. They were going to charge me in a recurring payment after the first free month.
It was probably in the text somewhere. I mean, I'm not exactly going to read through the WHOLE text for the ToS and EVERYTHING they provided upon purchase. And if it wasn't provided, then they should be sued. But I'm not going to read through all that just to make a point about something that doesn't really concern me anyway. :P
This takes me back to my second point in this thread, you're assuming they aren't following their TOS. As we do not know who will be charged and who won't be. We can argue this point back and forth for the next 30 days, there will be no right answer until we know what is going to happen. Which we do not know yet, I don't deal in assumptions, so I'm not going to add to the rabid speculating going on.
However I will say if (that's a big IF) they do charge people who don't know they are going to be charged, that's very unethical behavior. The problem is they haven't done that yet. You seem to be wanting to hold their feet to the fire for something they haven't done (yet). I think that may be what some people are taking issue with. With you and the others posting history, who can blame them really for getting a tad upset about that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Given the fact that they have already set up the system in such a manner to auto-renew and STATED it as well, speaking out about it actually helps protect people that did not know or were not aware that SV would stoop to such unethical behavior, because they wrote off the game many moons ago.
Oddly enough, people who did chargebacks on their card -- STILL GOT THE GAME. So the odds are very high that those people who thought they were done and over with from SV will probably get billed again too.
If a mugger was coming at you with a knife, would you say "well he hasn't done anything wrong yet"?
That's what SV is doing. They are coming for your money and if you don't say something, your money is as good as gone anyway.
It makes perfect sense if you read my last post where I quoted their term & conditions that WERE available from the first pre-order.
Edit:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your
account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your
subscription. You may do so at any time by logging onto the "account management" site on
www.mortalonline.com, and there use the "cancel subscription" option. Your account will stay open
until the end of the current billing cycle."
In terms and conditions PDF on the side of the account creation page. Dated 2009-07-13, the day pre-orders opened up. Maybe we should wait until some real proof comes up because as far as I'm concerned when I pre-ordered I didn't select any method and right there they clearly state "once you choose a subscription method".
(Sorry once more for quoting this particular message, haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes and this just so happened to be the last message when I first read this.)
Does someone happen to have the original terms and conditions agreement? The present one (dated to mid-July) quite clearly says that you do accept on continuous subscription if you do your order using either credit or debit card and set your subscription interval. Considering that the shop is opened 29th of June there either is no prior document or prior document has been rendered null and void by this later document. In either case, the new agreement has to be sent to clientele and they must be given due time for response. If this is not done, then it is most evident that the new contract could not have entered into force.
Let us suppose that such a notification was sent. If the client decides that the new agreement is something that he cannot agree on he must act accordingly. In such a case, the client is entitled for a full re-fund as the service they purchased was not consumed during the contractless or earlier contract period (time from 29th June to 13th of July). If, on the other hand, the client does not react it means that he will have entered into a new agreement with Star Vault and, thus, the new terms and conditions apply. It is completely legal but if you feel that you weren't given notice or a proper time to react you might claim that there was a procedural error. However, present terms and conditions agreement has been in use for more than nine months by now and therefore it might be that you have already agreed the new terms through silent assent.
All in all, there are a number of assumptions that are not cleared on this particular thread. Hence, I do think that the first step ought to be to verify what did the original pre-order clients agree on. If there was no original agreement on terms and conditions and the later version of said agreement was not sent to clients who had purchased the game, then it is evident that there is no contract over terms and conditions between said clients and Star Vault. In that particular scenario, it is relatively clear that Star Vault could not have possibly changed such an important part of their contract without an assent from their clients, and, therefore, client cannot be asked to pay a monthly fee without such consent. It is not per se illegal or unethical as stated on this thread, it is moreso that there is no agreement to start with. As such, enterprise is solely responsible from any damages caused to client (i.e. money paid on subscription that is not used) due to consumer law protection for the consumer against those considered professionals, in this case corporation called Star Vault, have heightened protection.
And finally, there seems to be some mis-conceptions from the legal system in Sweden. First, there will most certainly be no punitive remedies; you are entitled to what you have lost not what they have gained by their oversight. Second, there is no equity system in use as in common law and hence the validity of an agreement has fairly little to do what you might call unethical. I am not expert on Swedish law (the law applicable to this particular case) but I'd wager that an act titled "lag om avtal och andra rättshandlingar på förmögenhetsrättens område" is likely the place where you should look for the possibly reasons why there is no contract between you as a customer and Star Vault as a company, especially its third chapter titled "om rättshandlingars ogiltighet". Other acts and laws that might apply are those from protection of a consumer that are partly of common European origin (minimum level set by a directive) and all special laws touching the subject matter of providing a service and methods of payment.
You can't sue that which has no money, but this crosses the line into theft and fraud so, at least in the US, executives of SV will go to jail if they actually go through with these auto-renews.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
ROFL, sorry to laugh but I couldn't help it.
You're comparing this to a mugger coming at me with a knife? Really? Hyperbole much?
Personally I have nothing to worry about, as i don't pre-order games just because they sound good. What I would do (if I had pre-ordered) is what I do with all games that require CC's and monthly renewal when I'm done with them. Check the account page for any pending charges and subsequently cancel my subscription. I do this for every trial I take or beta I play as well, if it required a CC.
Sure speaking out about it is fine, if it's about awareness, forgive me if I didn't assume you're doing so for such a purpose. What's not fine is speaking before the facts are in, which is all I was saying.
Should I jump in line behind you, for the next Sv roast? Nope, not for this anyway (yet).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Did you have to register an account and CC info for the preorder? In that case I'd say you have agreed to the "standard" billing schedule (I assume 15$ from registered CC once a month). To quote the ToS:
"Please note that once you choose a subscription method and interval, and finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
That is the original document as the store opened July 14th.
Note that the document clearly describes 2 triggers which will result in you being enrolled in a recurring subscription. You must choose a subscription method and interval. There is no ambiguity here. It clearly says you must do both of these things.
Neither was done. People pre-ordered a game. There was no screen where you chose a subscription method or interval. Since this was not done, it is clear that people should NOT be auto enrolled in their subscription service.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You had to give them a method of payment to purchase the game. You at no time had to chose a subscription method or interval. The TOS clearly and unambiguously states you must do both but neither happened.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I guess that would fall into the "finish registering your account" statement in the ToS. It might be clearer if it is quoted how a lawyer would: "(...)finish registering your account, you will subsequently be automatically charged unless you manually cancel your subscription."
If there is no other document then I'd end up to totally opposite conclusion; you as a matter of fact were not pre-ordering the game but pre-ordering the game service that they do provide. As the majority of a cost from playing an MMOG comes from paying monthly subscription fees the main product is then the service of keeping the servers up and running and the game available. Hence, you ordered the service and the interval was one month as that is the duration of the time you initially purchased together with the game client. I guess that there can be justifiable reasons to interpret it differently but that's how I would read that particular agreement. Is it clear and evident for everyone, certainly not, but I would not consider it illegal either.
100% incorrect. My receipt says I purchased 1 box containing DVD Mortal Online and charged me $70.
How can you conclude that if neither of the 2 triggers clearly outlined in the TOS are followed that people should still be auto subscribed. Where do you even see an interval on one month listed in that document? It says you have to chose one.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To Harkkum: Your so full of it.
You weren't even able to subscribe when you pre-ordered the game. YOU STILL CAN'T EVEN SUBSCRIBE YET. So how the hell do you do what you said you do? You can't. Lies.
Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas
You can't subscribe yet? If that is the case WTH is this thread about?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's about the possibility, that maybe one day in the future, SV might be charging customers without their consent, perhaps.
-----
The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
As said, I can agree to disagree. I just do think that when you did pre-order the game you were living under the premiss that not only do you get access to a game's pre-release content (i.e. beta) but you are also given access to the game's servers whence the game releases. This period of access you were promised was to my understanding one month which led me to my conclusion. A somewhat analogical situation was with Aion's pre-orders where you could not access your pre-order free time without accepting to enter your credit card information (that you could later on erase) and this was not, many say, sufficiently underlined before the players made their pre-order.
We can safely say that they should have made their stand more clear, but calling their position unethical or illegal assumes that their sole purpose was to benefit from this confusion, something which I would not be ready to state based on this evidence alone.
Type louder, and with more force. You've almost made your point.