I absolutely understand him in terms of not understanding why people log into a massivle, constant gameworld and want to solo through the game. If I want to play on my own I play singleplayer games because they are much more fun to me than playing MMORPGs without grouping. I just don't get and have no idea why doing kill-/fedexquests or grinding mobs with a bad AI at a static spawn on your own is any fun.
Could anyone explain that to me?
Unfortunately, single-player games don't last very long. A week or two at best and they're gone. Trust me, I've spent 6-months doing little more than playing single-player games and I'm out. So you go with the next best alternative, an MMO, where the world is much larger, there is much more to do and they are constantly updating the content.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to play with the whining, egocentric, gear-whore communities that exist in most MMOs. Why would I want to group with people who don't share my goals? Why would I want to group with people who only care about powerleveling as fast as they can? No thanks. You play your way, I'll play mine.
Yeah I hate that "whining, egocentric, gear-whore communities" too, but in any mmorpg I found people I really liked and wanted to group with. I also had moments where I didn't want to group but I don't like it if 90% of the game can be done solo so that you only see people running across each other without interaction and communication. I just tried the AoC trial and it felt that way. Everybody was doing his solo quests and the whole game looked like single zombies following questmarks on their map without noticing anyone else. You came across people but most of the time when you asked people if they wanted to group they looked at you for a few secs and then went on doing their quest without even answering. One evening I came across some soft-Roleplayers and grouped with them and it was so much more fun.
Once I asked someone if he wanted to do quests in the 'archeronian ruins' (hope i remember that correctly) and he said: "No, these are solo quests, groupquests come later" and I asked him where the problem of doing soloquests together is and he didn't answer. That really pissed me off...
Maybe it's not the others who are weird but me. Maybe I am some kind of sociophile or something alike :P. I also do quests which I already completed with people who need help because for me it is about the interaction and not about becoming max level as quick as possible
Yeah I hate that "whining, egocentric, gear-whore communities" too, but in any mmorpg I found people I really liked and wanted to group with. I also had moments where I didn't want to group but I don't like it if 90% of the game can be done solo so that you only see people running across each other without interaction and communication. I just tried the AoC trial and it felt that way. Everybody was doing his solo quests and the whole game looked like single zombies following questmarks on their map without noticing anyone else. You came across people but most of the time when you asked people if they wanted to group they looked at you for a few secs and then went on doing their quest without even answering. One evening I came across some soft-Roleplayers and grouped with them and it was so much more fun.
Whereas I haven't, mostly because I'm not in a race to end-game, I retire my characters 100% of the time as soon as they hit max level so I have virtually nothing in common with the overwhelming majority of MMO players. I have lots of friends in game, but do I want to group with them? Nope. They don't share my goals and I don't share theirs. When I'm going through a quest, I want to go slowly, completely clear every room methodically before moving on to the next, make sure I get 100% of everything without exception. They want to run around like spastic chihuahuas killing as fast as they can so they can reap as much XP as fast as possible. Those two playstyles are entirely incompatible. Therefore, I prefer to play alone, there's nobody trying to hurry me up or go faster than I want.
I like to group --- I have vivid memories of grouping from the first days of EQ.
Problem is, nowadays most of the time (to paraphrase WA) I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that would invite me. Why? I wouldn't be a good group member. (Note - yes some of this has been posted by others.)
1. I don't know how long I will be on line. Most of the time I may have to stop playing any minute --- because RL is more important. That's not fair to the group.
2. I don't have the time to become really proficient and be a good group member, in the long haul sense. I just won't be able to play that much. I have a full time professional job and I am near retirement so playing until 2 am just doesn't work. Don't have the energy.
3. I don't care to play at the same pace that most people seem to want to. I want to talk about what we are doing. (The enforced downtime of EQ suited me...but in those days I could play all day.) I want to "tell the story" sometimes. In EQ we did that A LOT. Does anyone do that anymore?
4. I think group mates deserve members who are totally concentrating on the game. Nowadays most of the time I can't do that.
5. I have been in guilds in MMOs where the people were first class...but see above. Worst part is the sense you are letting people down who don't deserve it.
So why even play mmo's. Maybe I will meet people like me. But if not I do enjoy figuring out at my pace how to do stuff. I set my own goals. And the sense that other people are in the same world, crazy as it may seem, does add to it.
And contrast with, say, Dragon Age. I played about half way through it. To people who say quests in mmo's are repetitive, I can only reply that in DA after a while it seemed like I was playing at a high tension level constantly and doing pretty much the same thing over and over. Find a group of bad guys, fight. Reload. Fight some more. Yadda yadda. Of course your mileage will vary, drastically maybe.
But I have tried to explain why someone might play an mmo knowing it will mostly be solo.
One more point. (excuse)
Lately I got a dell xps with 1gb radeon card, etc. I went back to LOTRO and for the first time played at very high quality. And you know, you don't have to do anything much in the game to enjoy it a lot...you can just wander around and look. Breathtaking, IMHO. Siting with my hobbit and fishing. Nice, and if you want to laugh at it fine, it is silly.
Level games reinforces badly solo play. They should make skill based games. In these its easier to group. But in many level games you are forced to solo if you join game like half year after realease. i join mmo not to solo, if i want solo i just install solo game. Which have 100x better story line and is enjoyable solo.
Level games reinforces badly solo play. They shouldnt make skill based games. In these its easier to group. But in many level games you are forced to solo if you join game like half year after realease. i join mmo not to solo, if i want solo i just install solo game. Which have 100x better story line and is enjoyable solo.
thats the basic assumption of what people should do , go a little deeper and think about it, its not the storyline people so much seeks as solo playing. and it always makes me angry when i see this kinda comment thrown back to blame solo players in online game should play single player games. it shows that person who comment this dont even wanna think about the alternative for why somebody wants solo in online world. think!
I don't understand people who log into online gameworlds just to solo it.
Guess they are to lazy to interact....and the game engine is perhaps not helping them to co-operate...
I know in WoW you're kind of supposed to be soloing...at least to begin with...and this is what I don't get at all. Well it seems to be a popular game so guess it is working...
It has nothing to do with laziness whatsoever. When I want to play, I want to play. I do not want to have to wait 5 or 10 or 30 minutes while someone "just finishes something up quick" or "has to go sell quick" or "has to take the garbage out" and then get to the location of the quest.
I am a diehard soloer. I don't hate grouping, but I do hate having to group. For anything.
So, if you want me to group and enjoy it, here's my criteria: my teammates will only do the quests I want to do, when I want to do them, at the exact pace I want. I get all the loot. If I want to take a break, the whole team takes a break, but only until the exact moment I am ready to start playing again, and then they'd better be ready.
Does that sound selfish? Of course it does! It's convenience. That's why a lot of people solo. They go at the ideal pace for themselves, doing the quests they want in the order they want to do them. Look, I understand MMOs are social, and if someone really needs help with a quest (not ten!), then often I'm happy to help. If someone asks in chat for advice on builds or gear or a quest and I have the knowledge, I'm happy to share. I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-inconvenience. For many, their playtime is limited, they don't want it wasted on waiting for others.
P.S. - Wow is only soloable until the end, when it does a complete 180, which is why I now avoid games like that; which is, sadly, almost every single MMO.
Why I think it is very difficult to have grouping and soloing being good options in the same game:
When soloing and grouping exist in the same game for equal exp gains, the reasonable person would rather solo than group, as grouping takes time and can some times create friction between group mates, afk or bio breaks among group mates, etc. If we look at this mathematically, experience where grouping and soloing are equally efficient can be defined as:
n = amount of group members
EXP= n*n*1/n * 1/n
that is, n amount of people can kill n things (1 person can kill 1 mob, 2 can kill 2, 15 can kill 15 etc) times 1/n amount of time (5 people can kill 5x faster, in other words, 5 people can kill 1 thing in 1/5 the time) times the experience divided up among the team mates (1 things exp divided 10 ways is 1/10th the exp for each person)
So, 5 people kill 5 things 1/5 the amount of time, for 1/5 the exp, so their total exp/party ratio is always 1, for all amounts of party members.
(a little more math: factor out the n's: n/n*1/1*1/1*1/1*1/1 = n/n *1/1 = 1*1 = 1)
In this situation both grouping and soloing for everyone gets the same amount of return on their kills. But something is missing, this situation assumes that the population is infinite, and finding group is instant, which we know is not true.
So the new equation factoring in loss would be EXP = n*n*1/n*1/n - Tn (the reason T is exponential is because we should assume that the time it takes to go from 2 people to 3 people is less than the time it takes to go to 4 from 3 [you might wait only 5 min for 3 people, but then 5 just to get the 4th, and 10 to get the 5th [there have been far too many times in my gaming experience where you just cant find that last person, and the whole thing falls apart] this also takes into consideration that as the number of players increases, the needs of those last places are more specific and thus less people qualify to fill the spot in the group)
As the number of group members increases, your exp ratio decreases because you spend more time looking for those last people. (we can also add an variable in that the more people, the less they agree, but this is less often the case so i'll leave it out)
in a party of 5, all 5 people lose experience compared to if they had decided to all solo (aggregate soloing exp(assuming a population of 5): 1+1+1+1+1+1 = 5. aggregate group exp = (1+1+1+1+1)-Tn))
What this shows is that soloing is clearly pareto superior to grouping, as the welfare (measured here in xp) is always higher when working alone.
An example of this is leveling in WoW, (note: i haven't played WoW in a long time, but last time i played this was how it worked) and as you can clearly see from playing it, when grinding levels is very uncommon to find groups fighting things, because its equally efficient to solo, and groups suffer a time loss.
I will admit that there is some grouping in WoW, but until max level (or near max) its mostly optional (you will still be able to fight most regular mobs on green items just fine)
So when can soloing and grouping co-exist?
the only way that soloing and grouping can co-exist is when the grouping exp is adjusted for the time loss. This has been done in games like Everquest where there was a % boost in exp per person for full groups, (note that while this factor was in there, I personally in no way think that the boost had anything to do with why people didn't solo often, because the game was just too hard for most classes) . The benefit to people with groups needs to at least be high enough that there is no loss when grouping, as when they are equal, it becomes totally a preference choice whether people solo or group.
My final thoughts:
Some things I've thought about to help with this issue. I think of grouping, like business people think of investing. When the interest rate is low, people want to invest, when the interest rate is high, people would rather put their money in a bank or something similarly safe. In the MMO world, I think that if the benefits to grouping is watched and changed like the interest rate depending on what the market is doing, there could be a lot of forward progress on making a game both solo friendly and group friendly. for instance, i feel that if nobody solos at all in this fictitious game, groups are easy to find (nearly instant), making the time loss lower, the exp benefit can be lower (nearly nothing), but lets say as time goes on, the amount of soloers skyrockets so that nobody wants to group anymore, so the people who want to group struggle to find a group, the group exp rate (GER) can go up making grouping a better option, slowly bringing the solo/group ratio back into check. Basically, as soloing increases, the GER increases, and vice versa.
My next 2 ideas are already implemented in a game (FFXI). 1. Make some classes in an MMO specifically designed for soloing (like BST in FFXI) and 2. Make it so there are productive alternatives to leveling that can be done easily (relatively) that are also very productive (like crafting in a lot of games)
To sum it up, It is unlikely that soloing and grouping for combat/exp will ever co-exist in a good game (mostly because game designers don't hire economists like moi, who can point these things out). The way MMO's have been handled in the past is to make calculations about things, and let the system run, and what happens, happens.
Final note: I prefer grouping. I love talking to people, and shootin the shit in game with people. I played FFXI and WoW, made lots of friends in FFXI that i still talk to even if i dont play, and not a single person in WoW.
I completely agree with what was just said. The problem is that there is no benefit from grouping until your max level and need gear that only groups can get. I always felt in Wow that you leveled up and didn't know anyone then at level 60 you had to try to join a guild but didn't know anyone so it was really hard to get into a decent one. It would be like being a home schooled kid your whole life then being thrown into senior year of high school and told to find a date to prom. Everyone knows each other and your probably going to be stuck with the weird person nobody else wanted to go with.
In games like EQ and FFXI you started meeting people from the get go and the act of leveling was a similar experience to doing 5 man dungeons in WoW. Do not get me wrong, waiting for groups could and did suck sometimes, but when you had a good group it could lead to friendships that could lead to quicker groups in the future, or in the case of FFXI you could form a static party with people who got on around the same time every day and leveled up together.
The problem with current games is as the above poster said, the exp equation works out so that it is more beneficial to solo. In wow there is no benefit from grouping aside from the fact that the elite mobs in instances give more exp per kill, which is trivialized by the additional exp vanishing at a multiplicative rate. From what i remember the exp in a group seemed to be more along the lines of if the mob gives 100 xp for 1 person, if two people kill it the same thing gives each person 20 exp. A perfect game in my opinion would combine the solo quests of a modern game like WoW with the group benefits of a game like FFXI, where by grouping you could chain skills and get additional exp from monsters if i remember right, its been years since i played. The player should be able to advance on their own if there are no groups available but have an incentive to find a group for the benefit of leveling faster than if by themselves and the additional benefit of doing so with other players. There was definitely plenty of times in EQ where i could not find a group so i 'tried' to solo things but as a warrior i usually ended up getting raped, winning by pure luck (ie the mob missing 5 times in a row when i had 1 hp left), or having other people who were lfg throw a heal or some buffs on me because they were bored, if there was some serious alternatives to do to progress my character it would have been welcomed.
---edit---
It seems like people who want to solo are looking for rpg games in the mmo genre because of the possible lack of rpg games. It seems like playing a game like WoW up untill the mandatory grouping part would be less stress full (no ganking, quest mobs always there and never stolen.) if it was played 100% solo and you got your interaction from simultaneously logging into AiM or SKYPE to talk with your friends while they played it also. Or a game like diablo where you do your own thing then get a few friends together and kill diablo when its needed. Personally i hated diablo and i play MMO's because its fun to accomplish things with other people in games.
It seems like people who want to solo are looking for rpg games in the mmo genre because of the possible lack of rpg games. It seems like playing a game like WoW up untill the mandatory grouping part would be less stress full (no ganking, quest mobs always there and never stolen.) if it was played 100% solo and you got your interaction from simultaneously logging into AiM or SKYPE to talk with your friends while they played it also. Or a game like diablo where you do your own thing then get a few friends together and kill diablo when its needed. Personally i hated diablo and i play MMO's because its fun to accomplish things with other people in games.
I solo almost 100% of the time in my MMOs. I have no desire to rp whatsoever. The interaction I enjoy is not chatting with others, although I do a little, it's seeing a living world. No matter how well designed an SP game was, I know NPCs are just that, it's not the same. It really adds something to see a game city alive with real people, doing their thing, whatever it is. Also, I enjoy a good auction house; whether I'm selling or buying and knowing it's from another actual person.
With regards to Spaceghost's post, it's not a simple as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. A team is greater than the sum of their parts. For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would. Also, any damage they receive will be spread out, instead of focused on the one player. This means less downtime between encounters. This doesn't even count that 3 (or 5) players can cover many more classes than one person, giving them access to a wider range of powers and buffs. I'm not saying that grouping shouldn't have exp bonuses, it should, but a team of five is much better than a soloer x 5.
With regards to Spaceghost's post, it's not a simple as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. A team is greater than the sum of their parts. For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would. Also, any damage they receive will be spread out, instead of focused on the one player. This means less downtime between encounters. This doesn't even count that 3 (or 5) players can cover many more classes than one person, giving them access to a wider range of powers and buffs. I'm not saying that grouping shouldn't have exp bonuses, it should, but a team of five is much better than a soloer x 5.
Apparently you didn't quite follow. n people can kill n mobs in the amount of time that 1 person can kill 1 mob. thats implied in the equation.
"For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would."
this makes no logical sense. 3 times the damage over 1/3 the time = 3/3 = 1. how can you say that if one person does 10 damage, that 3 people will do more than 30 damage? they will hit 3 times to the monsters 1 hit. this can be looked at as 3x the damage (3x the speed) OR it can be looked at as 1/3 the damage received (1/3 the downtime). either way, its a 1:1 ratio
explain a situation where 3 people can do more than 3x damage?
With regards to Spaceghost's post, it's not a simple as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. A team is greater than the sum of their parts. For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would. Also, any damage they receive will be spread out, instead of focused on the one player. This means less downtime between encounters. This doesn't even count that 3 (or 5) players can cover many more classes than one person, giving them access to a wider range of powers and buffs. I'm not saying that grouping shouldn't have exp bonuses, it should, but a team of five is much better than a soloer x 5.
Apparently you didn't quite follow. n people can kill n mobs in the amount of time that 1 person can kill 1 mob. thats implied in the equation.
"For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would."
this makes no logical sense. 3 times the damage over 1/3 the time = 3/3 = 1. how can you say that if one person does 10 damage, that 3 people will do more than 30 damage? they will hit 3 times to the monsters 1 hit. this can be looked at as 3x the damage (3x the speed) OR it can be looked at as 1/3 the damage received (1/3 the downtime). either way, its a 1:1 ratio
explain a situation where 3 people can do more than 3x damage?
I don't think I explained myself well. Let's say that the soloer takes exactly one minute to kill a mob. During the fight, let's say that both the player and the monster get an attack, somewhat staggered, roughly every 5 seconds. So, during those 60 seconds, it takes the player 12 attacks to widdle down the monster's HP to zero.
Now, when three people attack it, the monster only gets 1/3 of his attacks off (at best) before he dies. That means the monster is doing only 4 attacks per fight. Unless they are all always against the same member of the team of three, the damage taken by the team is nearly negligible compared to what the soloer takes. This certainly equates to less downtime for the team between fights.
Also, do not ignore my point about a team having a greater variety of powers to bear against the mob, due to them being able to cover more classes. This would always result in them taking less than exactly one third the time of of the soloer. As I said, the result of a team is much greater than the sum of it's parts in an MMO. One way to prove this: take a boss encounter that is unsoloable for any class. Let's say that typically it takes a team of 5 to defeat it. Now have that team of five attack one at a time until a member is dead, then the next steps in. The boss would certainly win. Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
don't think I explained myself well. Let's say that the soloer takes exactly one minute to kill a mob. During the fight, let's say that both the player and the monster get an attack, somewhat staggered, roughly every 5 seconds. So, during those 60 seconds, it takes the player 12 attacks to widdle down the monster's HP to zero.
Now, when three people attack it, the monster only gets 1/3 of his attacks off (at best) before he dies. That means the monster is doing only 4 attacks per fight. Unless they are all always against the same member of the team of three, the damage taken by the team is nearly negligible compared to what the soloer takes. This certainly equates to less downtime for the team between fights.
Also, do not ignore my point about a team having a greater variety of powers to bear against the mob, due to them being able to cover more classes. This would always result in them taking less than exactly one third the time of of the soloer. As I said, the result of a team is much greater than the sum of it's parts in an MMO. One way to prove this: take a boss encounter that is unsoloable for any class. Let's say that typically it takes a team of 5 to defeat it. Now have that team of five attack one at a time until a member is dead, then the next steps in. The boss would certainly win. Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
well the problem with what your saying is that the boss isn't soloable. I'm talking about grouping as the main form of leveling. Yes, in solo games sometimes you have to get together and down things as a group, but thats not the grouping im talking about. obviously in a "grouping" setting, grouping will be the way to go, no doubt. there are bosses in WoW that cant be solo'd, but i wouldn't call WoW a grouping game at all. The point of my post was that given the option to solo (which yours didnt, because you said the boss cant be soloed) people will chose to solo rather than group, thus grouping either has to be forced on players or it can be expected to not be used (like in WoW where the option is there, but nobody does it)
don't think I explained myself well. Let's say that the soloer takes exactly one minute to kill a mob. During the fight, let's say that both the player and the monster get an attack, somewhat staggered, roughly every 5 seconds. So, during those 60 seconds, it takes the player 12 attacks to widdle down the monster's HP to zero.
Now, when three people attack it, the monster only gets 1/3 of his attacks off (at best) before he dies. That means the monster is doing only 4 attacks per fight. Unless they are all always against the same member of the team of three, the damage taken by the team is nearly negligible compared to what the soloer takes. This certainly equates to less downtime for the team between fights.
Also, do not ignore my point about a team having a greater variety of powers to bear against the mob, due to them being able to cover more classes. This would always result in them taking less than exactly one third the time of of the soloer. As I said, the result of a team is much greater than the sum of it's parts in an MMO. One way to prove this: take a boss encounter that is unsoloable for any class. Let's say that typically it takes a team of 5 to defeat it. Now have that team of five attack one at a time until a member is dead, then the next steps in. The boss would certainly win. Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
well the problem with what your saying is that the boss isn't soloable. I'm talking about grouping as the main form of leveling. Yes, in solo games sometimes you have to get together and down things as a group, but thats not the grouping im talking about. obviously in a "grouping" setting, grouping will be the way to go, no doubt. there are bosses in WoW that cant be solo'd, but i wouldn't call WoW a grouping game at all. The point of my post was that given the option to solo (which yours didnt, because you said the boss cant be soloed) people will chose to solo rather than group, thus grouping either has to be forced on players or it can be expected to not be used (like in WoW where the option is there, but nobody does it)
Few bosses in WoW (or most games, in my experience) are soloable unless you choose to level high above them and then go back and do them later.
Sure, in WoW you can choose not to group if you like, but in doing so, you will miss out on an awful lot of content along the way. You will also miss out on learning how to effectively play your toon in a group setting, which is essential for high-end content. The hunter, for instance, who chooses to solo his way to 80 can easily do so, but s/he will be known as a huntard when s/he constantly brings the wrong pet for the job (sweet baby Jesus, my most favorite of all the Jesuses, I hate when a hunter brings a core hound to a dungeon with very few casters where the core hound is far less effective at doing anything except getting in my way when I am tanking...ok, really, I just hate core hounds), consistently doesn't do enough DPS to really be a help, doesn't use traps or even know what they are, or, my personal favorite, doesn't train all their skills because they didn't think they were necessary. (Ok, sorry hunters, that was just the most ready example because I know someone like that. Most hunters are not that bad and I recognize that.) Or the Priest who refuses to drop shadow form long enough to toss a very necessary heal to keep the group from wiping because dropping form for just that long to save the group will mess with their DPS throughput numbers (another specific example I have seen numerous times). Or the Paladin who doesn't realize that their heals work on other people in the group besides themselves and that even a healadin can pull aggro off a clothie if necessary (though this is not a recommended use of a healadin's skills, generally speaking) and do an acceptable amount of fighting long enough to save the clothie and yell for a little help from DPS or tanks, which can save a group from a possible wipe (that plate can take a lot more damage than that cloth). Soloing to max level and never grouping (assuming, of course, the discussion mainly refers to people who haven't leveled at least one toon to max level already in the game in question) will not teach a person these things, but grouping will...if they listen to players who have been at the game a while.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
Speak for yourself.
Most people who group by choice, do it because they enjoy team work. Achieving a common goal through co-operation.
It's the difference between playing a solo sport like golf - or a team sport like basketball.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
don't think I explained myself well. Let's say that the soloer takes exactly one minute to kill a mob. During the fight, let's say that both the player and the monster get an attack, somewhat staggered, roughly every 5 seconds. So, during those 60 seconds, it takes the player 12 attacks to widdle down the monster's HP to zero.
Now, when three people attack it, the monster only gets 1/3 of his attacks off (at best) before he dies. That means the monster is doing only 4 attacks per fight. Unless they are all always against the same member of the team of three, the damage taken by the team is nearly negligible compared to what the soloer takes. This certainly equates to less downtime for the team between fights.
Also, do not ignore my point about a team having a greater variety of powers to bear against the mob, due to them being able to cover more classes. This would always result in them taking less than exactly one third the time of of the soloer. As I said, the result of a team is much greater than the sum of it's parts in an MMO. One way to prove this: take a boss encounter that is unsoloable for any class. Let's say that typically it takes a team of 5 to defeat it. Now have that team of five attack one at a time until a member is dead, then the next steps in. The boss would certainly win. Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
well the problem with what your saying is that the boss isn't soloable. I'm talking about grouping as the main form of leveling. Yes, in solo games sometimes you have to get together and down things as a group, but thats not the grouping im talking about. obviously in a "grouping" setting, grouping will be the way to go, no doubt. there are bosses in WoW that cant be solo'd, but i wouldn't call WoW a grouping game at all. The point of my post was that given the option to solo (which yours didnt, because you said the boss cant be soloed) people will chose to solo rather than group, thus grouping either has to be forced on players or it can be expected to not be used (like in WoW where the option is there, but nobody does it)
Few bosses in WoW (or most games, in my experience) are soloable unless you choose to level high above them and then go back and do them later.
Sure, in WoW you can choose not to group if you like, but in doing so, you will miss out on an awful lot of content along the way. You will also miss out on learning how to effectively play your toon in a group setting, which is essential for high-end content. The hunter, for instance, who chooses to solo his way to 80 can easily do so, but s/he will be known as a huntard when s/he constantly brings the wrong pet for the job (sweet baby Jesus, my most favorite of all the Jesuses, I hate when a hunter brings a core hound to a dungeon with very few casters where the core hound is far less effective at doing anything except getting in my way when I am tanking...ok, really, I just hate core hounds), consistently doesn't do enough DPS to really be a help, doesn't use traps or even know what they are, or, my personal favorite, doesn't train all their skills because they didn't think they were necessary. (Ok, sorry hunters, that was just the most ready example because I know someone like that. Most hunters are not that bad and I recognize that.) Or the Priest who refuses to drop shadow form long enough to toss a very necessary heal to keep the group from wiping because dropping form for just that long to save the group will mess with their DPS throughput numbers (another specific example I have seen numerous times). Or the Paladin who doesn't realize that their heals work on other people in the group besides themselves and that even a healadin can pull aggro off a clothie if necessary (though this is not a recommended use of a healadin's skills, generally speaking) and do an acceptable amount of fighting long enough to save the clothie and yell for a little help from DPS or tanks, which can save a group from a possible wipe (that plate can take a lot more damage than that cloth). Soloing to max level and never grouping (assuming, of course, the discussion mainly refers to people who haven't leveled at least one toon to max level already in the game in question) will not teach a person these things, but grouping will...if they listen to players who have been at the game a while.
Everything you're saying i completely agree with. But im not specifically talking about grouping for a "Task" but rather grouping vs soloing as the main form of leveling. WoW does have task based grouping. you might have to get a group for 1 hour or so to do an instance or what not (before end game) but few people did that as a means of grinding levels (except for me, but im a people person and hate soloing).
2 Things to note:
1. I have made some assumptions that may or may not be accurate, one of them being that people are rational (this probably leans more to "may not" in terms of WoW players..). The point of this is that I can then say if it benefits people to do something, they'll do it. While some have suggested that grouping is "much faster" because of the greater variety of skills that can be used, and other reasons, the logic follows that if this were true, people would do it. People dont (often) do it, so it can be reasoned that the benefit from grouping is less than that of soloing.
2. i've gotten to distracted by whats going on around me...and i forgot my second note....
Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
Speak for yourself.
Most people who group by choice, do it because they enjoy team work. Achieving a common goal through co-operation.
It's the difference between playing a solo sport like golf - or a team sport like basketball.
If these people actually do it by choice, because they want to, then why do they expect special rewards for doing it? Hmmm...
And while you're right, there is a difference between golf and basketball, you can still go shoot hoops without a team, just as you can go play in a golf tournament where you're actually playing against other people. Different people have different expectations and different goals. None are any inherently better than any other.
Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
Speak for yourself.
Most people who group by choice, do it because they enjoy team work. Achieving a common goal through co-operation.
It's the difference between playing a solo sport like golf - or a team sport like basketball.
If these people actually do it by choice, because they want to, then why do they expect special rewards for doing it? Hmmm..
Why? its very simple (if you read my original post), theres a loss in grouping that there isn't when you solo (assuming an equal distribution of exp) in terms of exp/hr. ex. waiting to get new members, bathroom breaks, general afk, finding replacements for lost members. So, its not simply a matter of preference because people are inclined to solo instead of group, because of the amount of exp/hr. Thats why they would need a bonus to recover the loss in time. Its only when the exp ratio is adjusted for time loss (via adding an exp bonus to parties) that it becomes a JUST a matter of preferences.
You see, if you don't give a bonus, there will still be people who want to group. As time goes on, less and less people want to take the personal loss of exp/hr from the time loss from grouping, making the time loss for people who want to party increasingly greater (because there are increasingly fewer people trying to party) until the time loss is so great that even people who want to party cant (as is the case in WoW). So, in this case without a bonus, those who want to party really don't have the option to.
Side note: im not saying this stuff is necessarily the 100% truth, im just saying that this is a logical conclusion. people will always do what they want when they want no matter what (people soloing in ffxi, dispite the fact that its much, much slower because they think its fun) and im a few people here or there like to group in WoW to level.
Why? its very simple (if you read my original post), theres a loss in grouping that there isn't when you solo (assuming an equal distribution of exp) in terms of exp/hr. ex. waiting to get new members, bathroom breaks, general afk, finding replacements for lost members. So, its not simply a matter of preference because people are inclined to solo instead of group, because of the amount of exp/hr. Thats why they would need a bonus to recover the loss in time. Its only when the exp ratio is adjusted for time loss (via adding an exp bonus to parties) that it becomes a JUST a matter of preferences.
You see, if you don't give a bonus, there will still be people who want to group. As time goes on, less and less people want to take the personal loss of exp/hr from the time loss from grouping, making the time loss for people who want to party increasingly greater (because there are increasingly fewer people trying to party) until the time loss is so great that even people who want to party cant (as is the case in WoW). So, in this case without a bonus, those who want to party really don't have the option to.
Side note: im not saying this stuff is necessarily the 100% truth, im just saying that this is a logical conclusion. people will always do what they want when they want no matter what (people soloing in ffxi, dispite the fact that its much, much slower because they think its fun) and im a few people here or there like to group in WoW to level.
I saw an argument recently which showed that groups already inherently get more, just by existing. I'll recount that argument briefly. If you have three people in a group, you're already able to deal 3x as much damage in the same amount of time, therefore you can kill 3x as many mobs in the same amount of time as a soloer. That brings 3x as much XP inherently and 3x as much overall loot. Therefore, you already have an advantage, just by being in a group and going after the same level content. However, a group can also go after harder content, which brings significantly more XP, more loot and higher-level gear and weapon drops, etc. I know that when I group, I can make multiple times the XP per hour in a group than I can playing solo, it's not remotely comparable. If you have 5 people in your group, the numbers rise appropriately, etc. There's also inherently less risk and therefore less downtime in a group. Instead of a mob piling all damage on a single individual, it's spread out over the entire group, no one has to bear the brunt of the attacks, and since the group can deal so much more damage than a soloer, the mob has less opportunity to deal damage overall. A soloer who has to hit 10x to kill a mob would likely take damage 10x in return. In a 5-man group, the group would deal the same amount of damage over 2 "turns" and the mob would only be able to damage 2 group members once each. Add to that the fact that you almost certainly have healers on your team, which hang back out of harm's way, and heal the tanks and damage dealers, thus further reducing the amount of damage and thus the amount of downtime that would go straight through to a soloer.
The idea that, poor you, someone has to go to the bathroom once in a while, is absurd. Cry me a river. Should I, as a soloer, get extra stuff if I have to go to the bathroom? You get for what you actually accomplish. If you're not off killing mobs, you're not going to be getting XP for them, nor should you. Your argument makes as much sense as saying you're sitting in a tavern talking to people, therefore you deserve XP because you're not getting any at the moment. It's your choice. If someone is off taking a bathroom break... GO DO SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!
The simple reality is, grouping is a *CHOICE*, just like soloing is. You choose to group because you enjoy grouping. If the only reason you're grouping is because you get extra stuff, you're not doing it for the right reason. It's just like the guy who sits around crafting and complains he's not getting XP. It's his choice, he knew it beforehand, he made his choice, he deals with the consequences. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by crafting, don't craft. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by grouping, don't group. Decide what your priorities are and stick with it.
What you're really arguing here isn't that you can't group, it's that you can't get a quick and easy party together so you want to bribe or force everyone else to play the way you want to play so you have an easier time of it. Sorry, cry me a river. You make your choices, you deal with them. If there aren't enough people who want to group, just for the sake of grouping, I guess you just can't group, can you? Any more than PvPers can PvP if there's nobody who wants to PvP with them or RPers can RP if nobody else wants to. The fact is, the idea that you ought to be able to force people, either through blatant bribery or game mechanics, to do things they do not want to do, just so you have an easier time is about the most ridiculous idea I've heard. When you pick a playstyle that depends on the cooperation of other people, you're at the whim of the other people and if they decide they don't want to play with you, maybe you ought to re-evaluate your choice.
Sure, in WoW you can choose not to group if you like, but in doing so, you will miss out on an awful lot of content along the way. You will also miss out on learning how to effectively play your toon in a group setting, which is essential for high-end content.
This is exactly the problem I have with group content in an MMO. I either have to play in a playstyle I prefer not to (grouping), or I have to miss out on content. This content is, as you said, almost always high-end content, which is where the best loot is.
The grouper will say: "That is your choice"
As a soloer I say "I have no choice".
I don't mind that there's stuff for a group to do, I am not so arrogant as to think the game should be made for me. But, since we are in a group vs solo thread, I do mind very much that I must miss out on content because I don't like to group. Worse still, the salt in the wounds, is that in almost every friggin MMO on the market, the best loot can only be acquired by grouping. And since games like Wow use a (IMO) moronic mechanic like BoA, I can't even buy that loot from a grouper.
So, Wow, like so many of it's ilk, let's me solo to the top and then says, 'group up or give up'. That is what pisses me off. That is what I think is unfair and antiquated and needs to change in MMO design. So when I see posters whine about how MMOs have gotten too solo-friendly, I always think "Yeah? What about the end-game?"
This is exactly the problem I have with group content in an MMO. I either have to play in a playstyle I prefer not to (grouping), or I have to miss out on content. This content is, as you said, almost always high-end content, which is where the best loot is.
The grouper will say: "That is your choice"
As a soloer I say "I have no choice".
I don't mind that there's stuff for a group to do, I am not so arrogant as to think the game should be made for me. But, since we are in a group vs solo thread, I do mind very much that I must miss out on content because I don't like to group. Worse still, the salt in the wounds, is that in almost every friggin MMO on the market, the best loot can only be acquired by grouping. And since games like Wow use a (IMO) moronic mechanic like BoA, I can't even buy that loot from a grouper.
So, Wow, like so many of it's ilk, let's me solo to the top and then says, 'group up or give up'. That is what pisses me off. That is what I think is unfair and antiquated and needs to change in MMO design. So when I see posters whine about how MMOs have gotten too solo-friendly, I always think "Yeah? What about the end-game?"
I have to agree with you, the whole Solo vs Group really get on my lest nerve.
Why? its very simple (if you read my original post), theres a loss in grouping that there isn't when you solo (assuming an equal distribution of exp) in terms of exp/hr. ex. waiting to get new members, bathroom breaks, general afk, finding replacements for lost members. So, its not simply a matter of preference because people are inclined to solo instead of group, because of the amount of exp/hr. Thats why they would need a bonus to recover the loss in time. Its only when the exp ratio is adjusted for time loss (via adding an exp bonus to parties) that it becomes a JUST a matter of preferences.
You see, if you don't give a bonus, there will still be people who want to group. As time goes on, less and less people want to take the personal loss of exp/hr from the time loss from grouping, making the time loss for people who want to party increasingly greater (because there are increasingly fewer people trying to party) until the time loss is so great that even people who want to party cant (as is the case in WoW). So, in this case without a bonus, those who want to party really don't have the option to.
Side note: im not saying this stuff is necessarily the 100% truth, im just saying that this is a logical conclusion. people will always do what they want when they want no matter what (people soloing in ffxi, dispite the fact that its much, much slower because they think its fun) and im a few people here or there like to group in WoW to level.
I saw an argument recently which showed that groups already inherently get more, just by existing. I'll recount that argument briefly. If you have three people in a group, you're already able to deal 3x as much damage in the same amount of time, therefore you can kill 3x as many mobs in the same amount of time as a soloer. That brings 3x as much XP inherently and 3x as much overall loot. Therefore, you already have an advantage, just by being in a group and going after the same level content. However, a group can also go after harder content, which brings significantly more XP, more loot and higher-level gear and weapon drops, etc. I know that when I group, I can make multiple times the XP per hour in a group than I can playing solo, it's not remotely comparable. If you have 5 people in your group, the numbers rise appropriately, etc. There's also inherently less risk and therefore less downtime in a group. Instead of a mob piling all damage on a single individual, it's spread out over the entire group, no one has to bear the brunt of the attacks, and since the group can deal so much more damage than a soloer, the mob has less opportunity to deal damage overall. A soloer who has to hit 10x to kill a mob would likely take damage 10x in return. In a 5-man group, the group would deal the same amount of damage over 2 "turns" and the mob would only be able to damage 2 group members once each. Add to that the fact that you almost certainly have healers on your team, which hang back out of harm's way, and heal the tanks and damage dealers, thus further reducing the amount of damage and thus the amount of downtime that would go straight through to a soloer.
The idea that, poor you, someone has to go to the bathroom once in a while, is absurd. Cry me a river. Should I, as a soloer, get extra stuff if I have to go to the bathroom? You get for what you actually accomplish. If you're not off killing mobs, you're not going to be getting XP for them, nor should you. Your argument makes as much sense as saying you're sitting in a tavern talking to people, therefore you deserve XP because you're not getting any at the moment. It's your choice. If someone is off taking a bathroom break... GO DO SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!
The simple reality is, grouping is a *CHOICE*, just like soloing is. You choose to group because you enjoy grouping. If the only reason you're grouping is because you get extra stuff, you're not doing it for the right reason. It's just like the guy who sits around crafting and complains he's not getting XP. It's his choice, he knew it beforehand, he made his choice, he deals with the consequences. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by crafting, don't craft. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by grouping, don't group. Decide what your priorities are and stick with it.
What you're really arguing here isn't that you can't group, it's that you can't get a quick and easy party together so you want to bribe or force everyone else to play the way you want to play so you have an easier time of it. Sorry, cry me a river. You make your choices, you deal with them. If there aren't enough people who want to group, just for the sake of grouping, I guess you just can't group, can you? Any more than PvPers can PvP if there's nobody who wants to PvP with them or RPers can RP if nobody else wants to. The fact is, the idea that you ought to be able to force people, either through blatant bribery or game mechanics, to do things they do not want to do, just so you have an easier time is about the most ridiculous idea I've heard. When you pick a playstyle that depends on the cooperation of other people, you're at the whim of the other people and if they decide they don't want to play with you, maybe you ought to re-evaluate your choice.
I prefer group play.
Still I played solo 90% of my time in Ultima Online and had a great time.
In the old days UO didn't give great loot, doing easy earth elementals for 300 for each kill was better money then fighting a dragon for 1000 for each kill.And most items you got were worthless junk.
You also had no XP, just skills so it didn't matter how many people were fighting the monsters, no fear for less XP, of course you needed to share gold, in that situation group did create more people is faster kill with less difficult.
But MMORPG's with levels give group xp reduction. You kill faster so you get less xp, killing enemies that you can easily solo are not worth in a group, the xp would go much faster solo in such situation.
So you are forced to take enemies that you can't solo, which requires good group play. You are depended on your group if you survive or not, so more risk.
A healer that is to slow in their job could easily kill the whole party.
A Damage dealer who just chain large amount of damage will get way to fast focus of the monster and probably will die in1 to 4 hits, impossible for a healer to keep him alive. And if the healer can do it then you can be sure the healer will get the enemy attention.
A tank who doesn't know how to get enemy attention is also very dangerous for a group. A tank must be fast when he sees the enemy, but also must keep his eyes out for other enemies that could attack the party, he then must be fast to make sure the weaker won't get hurt.
Everyone needs to work together, that is the difficult, and not every group setup works the same, so people must learn to adjust to the situation. People need to listen to eachother and are dependend on eachother.
Alone you know what you can do and can't do, in group it depends on everyone in the group. The difficult level make grouping exciting, 1 person making to many mistakes and you are all dead, you can do great and still lose because of an other member, which can be very frustrating.
I do think you think to lightly of grouping.
I also love solo and I want group and solo content from start till end, also end game should have solo content.
But groups have different kind of difficult then a solo player ever could expierence.
I personally prefer solo play in MMOs. This is mostly because I play them for the role-playing experience in many cases, and it's sometimes hard to find other people interested in that. So solo is the way to go. I also go through a lot of demos, so I'm playing without friends, and I'm not too fond of partying up with random strangers.
What really irks me is when a game REQUIRES you to have a party to do some quest or whatnot. I would prefer that if my character is powerful enough to defeat an entire dungeon by himself, they should let him in.
Personally I just like solo play because it allows me to grief all you groupers. Gotta make you mad when I divide and conquer your whole party by my lonesome. And besides, I wouldn't give many of you the time of day in real life, why would I start in a world thats supposedly designed for my enjoyment?
Sure, in WoW you can choose not to group if you like, but in doing so, you will miss out on an awful lot of content along the way. You will also miss out on learning how to effectively play your toon in a group setting, which is essential for high-end content.
This is exactly the problem I have with group content in an MMO. I either have to play in a playstyle I prefer not to (grouping), or I have to miss out on content. This content is, as you said, almost always high-end content, which is where the best loot is.
The grouper will say: "That is your choice"
As a soloer I say "I have no choice".
I don't mind that there's stuff for a group to do, I am not so arrogant as to think the game should be made for me. But, since we are in a group vs solo thread, I do mind very much that I must miss out on content because I don't like to group. Worse still, the salt in the wounds, is that in almost every friggin MMO on the market, the best loot can only be acquired by grouping. And since games like Wow use a (IMO) moronic mechanic like BoA, I can't even buy that loot from a grouper.
So, Wow, like so many of it's ilk, let's me solo to the top and then says, 'group up or give up'. That is what pisses me off. That is what I think is unfair and antiquated and needs to change in MMO design. So when I see posters whine about how MMOs have gotten too solo-friendly, I always think "Yeah? What about the end-game?"
I'm for a balance, really. I prefer giving players more incentive to group to level faster and more efficiently, and don't mind a game that is purely group based level so long as I can occupy my time with other activities if I can't find a group.
I also enjoy soloing as well, but to say that the entire game should be tailored to a solo player is just asking too much. Even in a game tailored to be solo friendly I still feel there should be SOME content that you need a group to over come. Just like in life, you "group" with others out of necessity to over come large tasks.
It's an MMO after all. Might as well make all those other people NPC's if you not going to group or interact with them.
Comments
Yeah I hate that "whining, egocentric, gear-whore communities" too, but in any mmorpg I found people I really liked and wanted to group with. I also had moments where I didn't want to group but I don't like it if 90% of the game can be done solo so that you only see people running across each other without interaction and communication. I just tried the AoC trial and it felt that way. Everybody was doing his solo quests and the whole game looked like single zombies following questmarks on their map without noticing anyone else. You came across people but most of the time when you asked people if they wanted to group they looked at you for a few secs and then went on doing their quest without even answering. One evening I came across some soft-Roleplayers and grouped with them and it was so much more fun.
Once I asked someone if he wanted to do quests in the 'archeronian ruins' (hope i remember that correctly) and he said: "No, these are solo quests, groupquests come later" and I asked him where the problem of doing soloquests together is and he didn't answer. That really pissed me off...
Maybe it's not the others who are weird but me. Maybe I am some kind of sociophile or something alike :P. I also do quests which I already completed with people who need help because for me it is about the interaction and not about becoming max level as quick as possible
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Hope: None
I like to group --- I have vivid memories of grouping from the first days of EQ.
Problem is, nowadays most of the time (to paraphrase WA) I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that would invite me. Why? I wouldn't be a good group member. (Note - yes some of this has been posted by others.)
1. I don't know how long I will be on line. Most of the time I may have to stop playing any minute --- because RL is more important. That's not fair to the group.
2. I don't have the time to become really proficient and be a good group member, in the long haul sense. I just won't be able to play that much. I have a full time professional job and I am near retirement so playing until 2 am just doesn't work. Don't have the energy.
3. I don't care to play at the same pace that most people seem to want to. I want to talk about what we are doing. (The enforced downtime of EQ suited me...but in those days I could play all day.) I want to "tell the story" sometimes. In EQ we did that A LOT. Does anyone do that anymore?
4. I think group mates deserve members who are totally concentrating on the game. Nowadays most of the time I can't do that.
5. I have been in guilds in MMOs where the people were first class...but see above. Worst part is the sense you are letting people down who don't deserve it.
So why even play mmo's. Maybe I will meet people like me. But if not I do enjoy figuring out at my pace how to do stuff. I set my own goals. And the sense that other people are in the same world, crazy as it may seem, does add to it.
And contrast with, say, Dragon Age. I played about half way through it. To people who say quests in mmo's are repetitive, I can only reply that in DA after a while it seemed like I was playing at a high tension level constantly and doing pretty much the same thing over and over. Find a group of bad guys, fight. Reload. Fight some more. Yadda yadda. Of course your mileage will vary, drastically maybe.
But I have tried to explain why someone might play an mmo knowing it will mostly be solo.
One more point. (excuse)
Lately I got a dell xps with 1gb radeon card, etc. I went back to LOTRO and for the first time played at very high quality. And you know, you don't have to do anything much in the game to enjoy it a lot...you can just wander around and look. Breathtaking, IMHO. Siting with my hobbit and fishing. Nice, and if you want to laugh at it fine, it is silly.
Cheers.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
Level games reinforces badly solo play. They should make skill based games. In these its easier to group. But in many level games you are forced to solo if you join game like half year after realease. i join mmo not to solo, if i want solo i just install solo game. Which have 100x better story line and is enjoyable solo.
thats the basic assumption of what people should do , go a little deeper and think about it, its not the storyline people so much seeks as solo playing. and it always makes me angry when i see this kinda comment thrown back to blame solo players in online game should play single player games. it shows that person who comment this dont even wanna think about the alternative for why somebody wants solo in online world. think!
they shouldnt = they should ^^
It has nothing to do with laziness whatsoever. When I want to play, I want to play. I do not want to have to wait 5 or 10 or 30 minutes while someone "just finishes something up quick" or "has to go sell quick" or "has to take the garbage out" and then get to the location of the quest.
I am a diehard soloer. I don't hate grouping, but I do hate having to group. For anything.
So, if you want me to group and enjoy it, here's my criteria: my teammates will only do the quests I want to do, when I want to do them, at the exact pace I want. I get all the loot. If I want to take a break, the whole team takes a break, but only until the exact moment I am ready to start playing again, and then they'd better be ready.
Does that sound selfish? Of course it does! It's convenience. That's why a lot of people solo. They go at the ideal pace for themselves, doing the quests they want in the order they want to do them. Look, I understand MMOs are social, and if someone really needs help with a quest (not ten!), then often I'm happy to help. If someone asks in chat for advice on builds or gear or a quest and I have the knowledge, I'm happy to share. I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-inconvenience. For many, their playtime is limited, they don't want it wasted on waiting for others.
P.S. - Wow is only soloable until the end, when it does a complete 180, which is why I now avoid games like that; which is, sadly, almost every single MMO.
Why I think it is very difficult to have grouping and soloing being good options in the same game:
When soloing and grouping exist in the same game for equal exp gains, the reasonable person would rather solo than group, as grouping takes time and can some times create friction between group mates, afk or bio breaks among group mates, etc. If we look at this mathematically, experience where grouping and soloing are equally efficient can be defined as:
n = amount of group members
EXP= n*n*1/n * 1/n
that is, n amount of people can kill n things (1 person can kill 1 mob, 2 can kill 2, 15 can kill 15 etc) times 1/n amount of time (5 people can kill 5x faster, in other words, 5 people can kill 1 thing in 1/5 the time) times the experience divided up among the team mates (1 things exp divided 10 ways is 1/10th the exp for each person)
So, 5 people kill 5 things 1/5 the amount of time, for 1/5 the exp, so their total exp/party ratio is always 1, for all amounts of party members.
(a little more math: factor out the n's: n/n*1/1*1/1*1/1*1/1 = n/n *1/1 = 1*1 = 1)
In this situation both grouping and soloing for everyone gets the same amount of return on their kills. But something is missing, this situation assumes that the population is infinite, and finding group is instant, which we know is not true.
So the new equation factoring in loss would be EXP = n*n*1/n*1/n - Tn (the reason T is exponential is because we should assume that the time it takes to go from 2 people to 3 people is less than the time it takes to go to 4 from 3 [you might wait only 5 min for 3 people, but then 5 just to get the 4th, and 10 to get the 5th [there have been far too many times in my gaming experience where you just cant find that last person, and the whole thing falls apart] this also takes into consideration that as the number of players increases, the needs of those last places are more specific and thus less people qualify to fill the spot in the group)
As the number of group members increases, your exp ratio decreases because you spend more time looking for those last people. (we can also add an variable in that the more people, the less they agree, but this is less often the case so i'll leave it out)
in a party of 5, all 5 people lose experience compared to if they had decided to all solo (aggregate soloing exp(assuming a population of 5): 1+1+1+1+1+1 = 5. aggregate group exp = (1+1+1+1+1)-Tn))
What this shows is that soloing is clearly pareto superior to grouping, as the welfare (measured here in xp) is always higher when working alone.
An example of this is leveling in WoW, (note: i haven't played WoW in a long time, but last time i played this was how it worked) and as you can clearly see from playing it, when grinding levels is very uncommon to find groups fighting things, because its equally efficient to solo, and groups suffer a time loss.
I will admit that there is some grouping in WoW, but until max level (or near max) its mostly optional (you will still be able to fight most regular mobs on green items just fine)
So when can soloing and grouping co-exist?
the only way that soloing and grouping can co-exist is when the grouping exp is adjusted for the time loss. This has been done in games like Everquest where there was a % boost in exp per person for full groups, (note that while this factor was in there, I personally in no way think that the boost had anything to do with why people didn't solo often, because the game was just too hard for most classes) . The benefit to people with groups needs to at least be high enough that there is no loss when grouping, as when they are equal, it becomes totally a preference choice whether people solo or group.
My final thoughts:
Some things I've thought about to help with this issue. I think of grouping, like business people think of investing. When the interest rate is low, people want to invest, when the interest rate is high, people would rather put their money in a bank or something similarly safe. In the MMO world, I think that if the benefits to grouping is watched and changed like the interest rate depending on what the market is doing, there could be a lot of forward progress on making a game both solo friendly and group friendly. for instance, i feel that if nobody solos at all in this fictitious game, groups are easy to find (nearly instant), making the time loss lower, the exp benefit can be lower (nearly nothing), but lets say as time goes on, the amount of soloers skyrockets so that nobody wants to group anymore, so the people who want to group struggle to find a group, the group exp rate (GER) can go up making grouping a better option, slowly bringing the solo/group ratio back into check. Basically, as soloing increases, the GER increases, and vice versa.
My next 2 ideas are already implemented in a game (FFXI). 1. Make some classes in an MMO specifically designed for soloing (like BST in FFXI) and 2. Make it so there are productive alternatives to leveling that can be done easily (relatively) that are also very productive (like crafting in a lot of games)
To sum it up, It is unlikely that soloing and grouping for combat/exp will ever co-exist in a good game (mostly because game designers don't hire economists like moi, who can point these things out). The way MMO's have been handled in the past is to make calculations about things, and let the system run, and what happens, happens.
Final note: I prefer grouping. I love talking to people, and shootin the shit in game with people. I played FFXI and WoW, made lots of friends in FFXI that i still talk to even if i dont play, and not a single person in WoW.
I completely agree with what was just said. The problem is that there is no benefit from grouping until your max level and need gear that only groups can get. I always felt in Wow that you leveled up and didn't know anyone then at level 60 you had to try to join a guild but didn't know anyone so it was really hard to get into a decent one. It would be like being a home schooled kid your whole life then being thrown into senior year of high school and told to find a date to prom. Everyone knows each other and your probably going to be stuck with the weird person nobody else wanted to go with.
In games like EQ and FFXI you started meeting people from the get go and the act of leveling was a similar experience to doing 5 man dungeons in WoW. Do not get me wrong, waiting for groups could and did suck sometimes, but when you had a good group it could lead to friendships that could lead to quicker groups in the future, or in the case of FFXI you could form a static party with people who got on around the same time every day and leveled up together.
The problem with current games is as the above poster said, the exp equation works out so that it is more beneficial to solo. In wow there is no benefit from grouping aside from the fact that the elite mobs in instances give more exp per kill, which is trivialized by the additional exp vanishing at a multiplicative rate. From what i remember the exp in a group seemed to be more along the lines of if the mob gives 100 xp for 1 person, if two people kill it the same thing gives each person 20 exp. A perfect game in my opinion would combine the solo quests of a modern game like WoW with the group benefits of a game like FFXI, where by grouping you could chain skills and get additional exp from monsters if i remember right, its been years since i played. The player should be able to advance on their own if there are no groups available but have an incentive to find a group for the benefit of leveling faster than if by themselves and the additional benefit of doing so with other players. There was definitely plenty of times in EQ where i could not find a group so i 'tried' to solo things but as a warrior i usually ended up getting raped, winning by pure luck (ie the mob missing 5 times in a row when i had 1 hp left), or having other people who were lfg throw a heal or some buffs on me because they were bored, if there was some serious alternatives to do to progress my character it would have been welcomed.
---edit---
It seems like people who want to solo are looking for rpg games in the mmo genre because of the possible lack of rpg games. It seems like playing a game like WoW up untill the mandatory grouping part would be less stress full (no ganking, quest mobs always there and never stolen.) if it was played 100% solo and you got your interaction from simultaneously logging into AiM or SKYPE to talk with your friends while they played it also. Or a game like diablo where you do your own thing then get a few friends together and kill diablo when its needed. Personally i hated diablo and i play MMO's because its fun to accomplish things with other people in games.
I solo almost 100% of the time in my MMOs. I have no desire to rp whatsoever. The interaction I enjoy is not chatting with others, although I do a little, it's seeing a living world. No matter how well designed an SP game was, I know NPCs are just that, it's not the same. It really adds something to see a game city alive with real people, doing their thing, whatever it is. Also, I enjoy a good auction house; whether I'm selling or buying and knowing it's from another actual person.
With regards to Spaceghost's post, it's not a simple as 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. A team is greater than the sum of their parts. For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would. Also, any damage they receive will be spread out, instead of focused on the one player. This means less downtime between encounters. This doesn't even count that 3 (or 5) players can cover many more classes than one person, giving them access to a wider range of powers and buffs. I'm not saying that grouping shouldn't have exp bonuses, it should, but a team of five is much better than a soloer x 5.
Apparently you didn't quite follow. n people can kill n mobs in the amount of time that 1 person can kill 1 mob. thats implied in the equation.
"For one thing, they get three attacks to the monster's one, so they will kill it faster than 1/3rd the time a soloer would."
this makes no logical sense. 3 times the damage over 1/3 the time = 3/3 = 1. how can you say that if one person does 10 damage, that 3 people will do more than 30 damage? they will hit 3 times to the monsters 1 hit. this can be looked at as 3x the damage (3x the speed) OR it can be looked at as 1/3 the damage received (1/3 the downtime). either way, its a 1:1 ratio
explain a situation where 3 people can do more than 3x damage?
I don't think I explained myself well. Let's say that the soloer takes exactly one minute to kill a mob. During the fight, let's say that both the player and the monster get an attack, somewhat staggered, roughly every 5 seconds. So, during those 60 seconds, it takes the player 12 attacks to widdle down the monster's HP to zero.
Now, when three people attack it, the monster only gets 1/3 of his attacks off (at best) before he dies. That means the monster is doing only 4 attacks per fight. Unless they are all always against the same member of the team of three, the damage taken by the team is nearly negligible compared to what the soloer takes. This certainly equates to less downtime for the team between fights.
Also, do not ignore my point about a team having a greater variety of powers to bear against the mob, due to them being able to cover more classes. This would always result in them taking less than exactly one third the time of of the soloer. As I said, the result of a team is much greater than the sum of it's parts in an MMO. One way to prove this: take a boss encounter that is unsoloable for any class. Let's say that typically it takes a team of 5 to defeat it. Now have that team of five attack one at a time until a member is dead, then the next steps in. The boss would certainly win. Only by combining their abilities to overlap and buff each other will the team succeed. Indeed, this speaks to the very reason groupers prefer to group.
well the problem with what your saying is that the boss isn't soloable. I'm talking about grouping as the main form of leveling. Yes, in solo games sometimes you have to get together and down things as a group, but thats not the grouping im talking about. obviously in a "grouping" setting, grouping will be the way to go, no doubt. there are bosses in WoW that cant be solo'd, but i wouldn't call WoW a grouping game at all. The point of my post was that given the option to solo (which yours didnt, because you said the boss cant be soloed) people will chose to solo rather than group, thus grouping either has to be forced on players or it can be expected to not be used (like in WoW where the option is there, but nobody does it)
Few bosses in WoW (or most games, in my experience) are soloable unless you choose to level high above them and then go back and do them later.
Sure, in WoW you can choose not to group if you like, but in doing so, you will miss out on an awful lot of content along the way. You will also miss out on learning how to effectively play your toon in a group setting, which is essential for high-end content. The hunter, for instance, who chooses to solo his way to 80 can easily do so, but s/he will be known as a huntard when s/he constantly brings the wrong pet for the job (sweet baby Jesus, my most favorite of all the Jesuses, I hate when a hunter brings a core hound to a dungeon with very few casters where the core hound is far less effective at doing anything except getting in my way when I am tanking...ok, really, I just hate core hounds), consistently doesn't do enough DPS to really be a help, doesn't use traps or even know what they are, or, my personal favorite, doesn't train all their skills because they didn't think they were necessary. (Ok, sorry hunters, that was just the most ready example because I know someone like that. Most hunters are not that bad and I recognize that.) Or the Priest who refuses to drop shadow form long enough to toss a very necessary heal to keep the group from wiping because dropping form for just that long to save the group will mess with their DPS throughput numbers (another specific example I have seen numerous times). Or the Paladin who doesn't realize that their heals work on other people in the group besides themselves and that even a healadin can pull aggro off a clothie if necessary (though this is not a recommended use of a healadin's skills, generally speaking) and do an acceptable amount of fighting long enough to save the clothie and yell for a little help from DPS or tanks, which can save a group from a possible wipe (that plate can take a lot more damage than that cloth). Soloing to max level and never grouping (assuming, of course, the discussion mainly refers to people who haven't leveled at least one toon to max level already in the game in question) will not teach a person these things, but grouping will...if they listen to players who have been at the game a while.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Speak for yourself.
Most people who group by choice, do it because they enjoy team work. Achieving a common goal through co-operation.
It's the difference between playing a solo sport like golf - or a team sport like basketball.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Everything you're saying i completely agree with. But im not specifically talking about grouping for a "Task" but rather grouping vs soloing as the main form of leveling. WoW does have task based grouping. you might have to get a group for 1 hour or so to do an instance or what not (before end game) but few people did that as a means of grinding levels (except for me, but im a people person and hate soloing).
2 Things to note:
1. I have made some assumptions that may or may not be accurate, one of them being that people are rational (this probably leans more to "may not" in terms of WoW players..). The point of this is that I can then say if it benefits people to do something, they'll do it. While some have suggested that grouping is "much faster" because of the greater variety of skills that can be used, and other reasons, the logic follows that if this were true, people would do it. People dont (often) do it, so it can be reasoned that the benefit from grouping is less than that of soloing.
2. i've gotten to distracted by whats going on around me...and i forgot my second note....
If these people actually do it by choice, because they want to, then why do they expect special rewards for doing it? Hmmm...
And while you're right, there is a difference between golf and basketball, you can still go shoot hoops without a team, just as you can go play in a golf tournament where you're actually playing against other people. Different people have different expectations and different goals. None are any inherently better than any other.
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Why? its very simple (if you read my original post), theres a loss in grouping that there isn't when you solo (assuming an equal distribution of exp) in terms of exp/hr. ex. waiting to get new members, bathroom breaks, general afk, finding replacements for lost members. So, its not simply a matter of preference because people are inclined to solo instead of group, because of the amount of exp/hr. Thats why they would need a bonus to recover the loss in time. Its only when the exp ratio is adjusted for time loss (via adding an exp bonus to parties) that it becomes a JUST a matter of preferences.
You see, if you don't give a bonus, there will still be people who want to group. As time goes on, less and less people want to take the personal loss of exp/hr from the time loss from grouping, making the time loss for people who want to party increasingly greater (because there are increasingly fewer people trying to party) until the time loss is so great that even people who want to party cant (as is the case in WoW). So, in this case without a bonus, those who want to party really don't have the option to.
Side note: im not saying this stuff is necessarily the 100% truth, im just saying that this is a logical conclusion. people will always do what they want when they want no matter what (people soloing in ffxi, dispite the fact that its much, much slower because they think its fun) and im a few people here or there like to group in WoW to level.
I saw an argument recently which showed that groups already inherently get more, just by existing. I'll recount that argument briefly. If you have three people in a group, you're already able to deal 3x as much damage in the same amount of time, therefore you can kill 3x as many mobs in the same amount of time as a soloer. That brings 3x as much XP inherently and 3x as much overall loot. Therefore, you already have an advantage, just by being in a group and going after the same level content. However, a group can also go after harder content, which brings significantly more XP, more loot and higher-level gear and weapon drops, etc. I know that when I group, I can make multiple times the XP per hour in a group than I can playing solo, it's not remotely comparable. If you have 5 people in your group, the numbers rise appropriately, etc. There's also inherently less risk and therefore less downtime in a group. Instead of a mob piling all damage on a single individual, it's spread out over the entire group, no one has to bear the brunt of the attacks, and since the group can deal so much more damage than a soloer, the mob has less opportunity to deal damage overall. A soloer who has to hit 10x to kill a mob would likely take damage 10x in return. In a 5-man group, the group would deal the same amount of damage over 2 "turns" and the mob would only be able to damage 2 group members once each. Add to that the fact that you almost certainly have healers on your team, which hang back out of harm's way, and heal the tanks and damage dealers, thus further reducing the amount of damage and thus the amount of downtime that would go straight through to a soloer.
The idea that, poor you, someone has to go to the bathroom once in a while, is absurd. Cry me a river. Should I, as a soloer, get extra stuff if I have to go to the bathroom? You get for what you actually accomplish. If you're not off killing mobs, you're not going to be getting XP for them, nor should you. Your argument makes as much sense as saying you're sitting in a tavern talking to people, therefore you deserve XP because you're not getting any at the moment. It's your choice. If someone is off taking a bathroom break... GO DO SOMETHING ELSE!!!!!
The simple reality is, grouping is a *CHOICE*, just like soloing is. You choose to group because you enjoy grouping. If the only reason you're grouping is because you get extra stuff, you're not doing it for the right reason. It's just like the guy who sits around crafting and complains he's not getting XP. It's his choice, he knew it beforehand, he made his choice, he deals with the consequences. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by crafting, don't craft. If you don't want to potentially miss XP by grouping, don't group. Decide what your priorities are and stick with it.
What you're really arguing here isn't that you can't group, it's that you can't get a quick and easy party together so you want to bribe or force everyone else to play the way you want to play so you have an easier time of it. Sorry, cry me a river. You make your choices, you deal with them. If there aren't enough people who want to group, just for the sake of grouping, I guess you just can't group, can you? Any more than PvPers can PvP if there's nobody who wants to PvP with them or RPers can RP if nobody else wants to. The fact is, the idea that you ought to be able to force people, either through blatant bribery or game mechanics, to do things they do not want to do, just so you have an easier time is about the most ridiculous idea I've heard. When you pick a playstyle that depends on the cooperation of other people, you're at the whim of the other people and if they decide they don't want to play with you, maybe you ought to re-evaluate your choice.
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This is exactly the problem I have with group content in an MMO. I either have to play in a playstyle I prefer not to (grouping), or I have to miss out on content. This content is, as you said, almost always high-end content, which is where the best loot is.
The grouper will say: "That is your choice"
As a soloer I say "I have no choice".
I don't mind that there's stuff for a group to do, I am not so arrogant as to think the game should be made for me. But, since we are in a group vs solo thread, I do mind very much that I must miss out on content because I don't like to group. Worse still, the salt in the wounds, is that in almost every friggin MMO on the market, the best loot can only be acquired by grouping. And since games like Wow use a (IMO) moronic mechanic like BoA, I can't even buy that loot from a grouper.
So, Wow, like so many of it's ilk, let's me solo to the top and then says, 'group up or give up'. That is what pisses me off. That is what I think is unfair and antiquated and needs to change in MMO design. So when I see posters whine about how MMOs have gotten too solo-friendly, I always think "Yeah? What about the end-game?"
I have to agree with you, the whole Solo vs Group really get on my lest nerve.
UO-EQ1-SWG-DAOC-WOW-EQ2-WAR-GW2-RIFT
I prefer group play.
Still I played solo 90% of my time in Ultima Online and had a great time.
In the old days UO didn't give great loot, doing easy earth elementals for 300 for each kill was better money then fighting a dragon for 1000 for each kill.And most items you got were worthless junk.
You also had no XP, just skills so it didn't matter how many people were fighting the monsters, no fear for less XP, of course you needed to share gold, in that situation group did create more people is faster kill with less difficult.
But MMORPG's with levels give group xp reduction. You kill faster so you get less xp, killing enemies that you can easily solo are not worth in a group, the xp would go much faster solo in such situation.
So you are forced to take enemies that you can't solo, which requires good group play. You are depended on your group if you survive or not, so more risk.
A healer that is to slow in their job could easily kill the whole party.
A Damage dealer who just chain large amount of damage will get way to fast focus of the monster and probably will die in1 to 4 hits, impossible for a healer to keep him alive. And if the healer can do it then you can be sure the healer will get the enemy attention.
A tank who doesn't know how to get enemy attention is also very dangerous for a group. A tank must be fast when he sees the enemy, but also must keep his eyes out for other enemies that could attack the party, he then must be fast to make sure the weaker won't get hurt.
Everyone needs to work together, that is the difficult, and not every group setup works the same, so people must learn to adjust to the situation. People need to listen to eachother and are dependend on eachother.
Alone you know what you can do and can't do, in group it depends on everyone in the group. The difficult level make grouping exciting, 1 person making to many mistakes and you are all dead, you can do great and still lose because of an other member, which can be very frustrating.
I do think you think to lightly of grouping.
I also love solo and I want group and solo content from start till end, also end game should have solo content.
But groups have different kind of difficult then a solo player ever could expierence.
I personally prefer solo play in MMOs. This is mostly because I play them for the role-playing experience in many cases, and it's sometimes hard to find other people interested in that. So solo is the way to go. I also go through a lot of demos, so I'm playing without friends, and I'm not too fond of partying up with random strangers.
What really irks me is when a game REQUIRES you to have a party to do some quest or whatnot. I would prefer that if my character is powerful enough to defeat an entire dungeon by himself, they should let him in.
Personally I just like solo play because it allows me to grief all you groupers. Gotta make you mad when I divide and conquer your whole party by my lonesome. And besides, I wouldn't give many of you the time of day in real life, why would I start in a world thats supposedly designed for my enjoyment?
I'm for a balance, really. I prefer giving players more incentive to group to level faster and more efficiently, and don't mind a game that is purely group based level so long as I can occupy my time with other activities if I can't find a group.
I also enjoy soloing as well, but to say that the entire game should be tailored to a solo player is just asking too much. Even in a game tailored to be solo friendly I still feel there should be SOME content that you need a group to over come. Just like in life, you "group" with others out of necessity to over come large tasks.
It's an MMO after all. Might as well make all those other people NPC's if you not going to group or interact with them.