I think that there should be solo play and group play in a game like WOW did. WOW is the best way to describe what a game should do. You dont want to much group quests though just in case most people didn't play it and only a few did. Then again that could also make people who love to group a bit angry. So having both in a game would be a good thing and not one more then the other. Having group play though is what MMO's are made for. To let people play more with others. Thats what makes MMO's unique.
MMOS ARE SOCIAL AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GROUP IS SOCIALLY INEPT AND SHOULDN'T PLAY
The quote above is paraphrasing a number of posts dismissing solo play options without laboriously quoting each poster.
I don't understand why this belief system of all or nothing is so religiously adhered to by the grouping proponents. You people just don't seem to understand why forced grouping for character development is a negative gameplay element. Without fail, proponents of the group orientation look down their noses at those who wish for viable solo play elements, labeling them as social misfits who are incapable of forming some sort of basic friendship ties in virtual space. Come on now, surely you recognize the absurdity of such a position? I suppose you'll go looking for true love on Facebook or Myspace while you're at it?
The playerbase that wishes for a viable solo path within a MMO are simply uinterested in being forced to endure high school level social drama, why is that so difficult to understand? The advocacy of group only viable playstyle is very much like insisting that you must join the Chess Club, or the Basketball Team, or the Yearbook Staff, ect, with all the associated conformity of its group members in outlook, beliefs, and behavior. Or similiar to demanding that someone who moves to an area abandon all their own sense of individual interests and become rabid followers of the local sports team or else not move there. See how absurd that sounds?
So far WoW has done it the best, especially with the implimentation of the Dungeon Finder. While it is far from perfect, and the emphasis on gear as a progression path is simplistic (and IMO detrimental long term), the fact that WoW understands and supports solo playstyles as much as it does, is one significant reason why it is dominating the MMO market. Any other MMO who wishes to thrive will do the same if they wish to have more than a niche following.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
MMOS ARE SOCIAL AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GROUP IS SOCIALLY INEPT AND SHOULDN'T PLAY
The quote above is paraphrasing a number of posts dismissing solo play options without laboriously quoting each poster.
I don't understand why this belief system of all or nothing is so religiously adhered to by the grouping proponents. You people just don't seem to understand why forced grouping for character development is a negative gameplay element. Without fail, proponents of the group orientation look down their noses at those who wish for viable solo play elements, labeling them as social misfits who are incapable of forming some sort of basic friendship ties in virtual space. Come on now, surely you recognize the absurdity of such a position? I suppose you'll go looking for true love on Facebook or Myspace while you're at it?
The playerbase that wishes for a viable solo path within a MMO are simply uinterested in being forced to endure high school level social drama, why is that so difficult to understand?
Word brother!
I especially love the comment regarding "being forced to endure high school level of social drama".
Not grouping in a game makes me socially inept? How about that I am "out" socialing five nights of the seven day week. If anything, most working adults can't come close to the level of socializing that I do per week. That is not a boast but a simple fact. Most adults I know work very hard, come home and just want to relax. Maybe with family. I and others like me are going to concerts, plays, Art openings, dinner parties, hanging with friends in person.
So being forced to socialize with players not of my choosing so I can hear about the most petty things or have distasteful personalities forced down my throat really can't constitute socializing in my book.
That quote can't be serious. Must be ironic.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not grouping in a game makes me socially inept? How about that I am "out" socialing five nights of the seven day week. If anything, most working adults can't come close to the level of socializing that I do per week. That is not a boast but a simple fact. Most adults I know work very hard, come home and just want to relax. Maybe with family. I and others like me are going to concerts, plays, Art openings, dinner parties, hanging with friends in person.
So being forced to socialize with players not of my choosing so I can hear about the most petty things or have distasteful personalities forced down my throat really can't constitute socializing in my book.
That quote can't be serious. Must be ironic.
If you want to relax without socializing (and that's perfectly reasonable) - then don't play a multiplayer game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
MMOS ARE SOCIAL AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GROUP IS SOCIALLY INEPT AND SHOULDN'T PLAY
The quote above is paraphrasing a number of posts dismissing solo play options without laboriously quoting each poster.
I don't understand why this belief system of all or nothing is so religiously adhered to by the grouping proponents. You people just don't seem to understand why forced grouping for character development is a negative gameplay element. Without fail, proponents of the group orientation look down their noses at those who wish for viable solo play elements, labeling them as social misfits who are incapable of forming some sort of basic friendship ties in virtual space. Come on now, surely you recognize the absurdity of such a position? I suppose you'll go looking for true love on Facebook or Myspace while you're at it?
The playerbase that wishes for a viable solo path within a MMO are simply uinterested in being forced to endure high school level social drama, why is that so difficult to understand? The advocacy of group only viable playstyle is very much like insisting that you must join the Chess Club, or the Basketball Team,
Solo players want to be on the team, but not play with the team. Just stand off to the side and shoot freethrows. Well, that's not playing basketball, and it's sure as hell not being on a team.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not grouping in a game makes me socially inept? How about that I am "out" socialing five nights of the seven day week. If anything, most working adults can't come close to the level of socializing that I do per week. That is not a boast but a simple fact. Most adults I know work very hard, come home and just want to relax. Maybe with family. I and others like me are going to concerts, plays, Art openings, dinner parties, hanging with friends in person.
So being forced to socialize with players not of my choosing so I can hear about the most petty things or have distasteful personalities forced down my throat really can't constitute socializing in my book.
That quote can't be serious. Must be ironic.
If you want to relax without socializing (and that's perfectly reasonable) - then don't play a multiplayer game.
I come at it from a different perspective.
If the game allows me to play it on my own terms then I will play it. You will never, and I mean NEVER find me rushign to some forum screaming "I want x I want y why can't I z".
If the game doesn't support my playstyle i just log out and cancel because obviously the game is not for me. I think that's pretty fair no? I mean, it essentialy acknowledges that not all games are for me and quite frankly that is as it should be.
But if a game allows me to log in and do my own thing, as many of these games do, then I play. It's win/win really.
And besides, if the "idea" of these games is that they are supposed to be worlds then I find it rather curious that players are screaming for everyone to fall in line with a very narrow (and I mean very narrow) concept of what it means to be social.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
MMOS ARE SOCIAL AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GROUP IS SOCIALLY INEPT AND SHOULDN'T PLAY
The quote above is paraphrasing a number of posts dismissing solo play options without laboriously quoting each poster.
I don't understand why this belief system of all or nothing is so religiously adhered to by the grouping proponents. You people just don't seem to understand why forced grouping for character development is a negative gameplay element. Without fail, proponents of the group orientation look down their noses at those who wish for viable solo play elements, labeling them as social misfits who are incapable of forming some sort of basic friendship ties in virtual space. Come on now, surely you recognize the absurdity of such a position? I suppose you'll go looking for true love on Facebook or Myspace while you're at it?
The playerbase that wishes for a viable solo path within a MMO are simply uinterested in being forced to endure high school level social drama, why is that so difficult to understand? The advocacy of group only viable playstyle is very much like insisting that you must join the Chess Club, or the Basketball Team,
Solo players want to be on the team, but not play with the team. Just stand off to the side and shoot freethrows. Well, that's not playing basketball, and it's sure as hell not being on a team.
No they don't.
They want to play basket ball when they want to play basket ball and then they want to go off to the other part of the gym and lift weights while the others continue to play basket ball.
edit: maybe even watch a bit of the game between sets.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If the game allows me to play it on my own terms then I will play it. You will never, and I mean NEVER find me rushign to some forum screaming "I want x I want y why can't I z".
But really, that's what you are doing right here. You are calling for the ability to solo in mutliplayer games.
If the game doesn't support my playstyle i just log out and cancel because obviously the game is not for me. I think that's pretty fair no? I mean, it essentialy acknowledges that not all games are for me and quite frankly that is as it should be.
But if a game allows me to log in and do my own thing, as many of these games do, then I play. It's win/win really.
For you, but these games are being hurt by the soloers. They stink up groups they deign to enter, and the games are skewed towards to the detriment of groupers.
One of the first issues brought up about a new MMO is how solo-friendly it will be.
And besides, if the "idea" of these games is that they are supposed to be worlds then I find it rather curious that players are screaming for everyone to fall in line with a very narrow (and I mean very narrow) concept of what it means to be social.
It isn't narrow at all. They are still games - you socialize by playing them with other people. You can chat on any number of services and websites.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If the game allows me to play it on my own terms then I will play it. You will never, and I mean NEVER find me rushign to some forum screaming "I want x I want y why can't I z".
But really, that's what you are doing right here. You are calling for the ability to solo in mutliplayer games.
If the game doesn't support my playstyle i just log out and cancel because obviously the game is not for me. I think that's pretty fair no? I mean, it essentialy acknowledges that not all games are for me and quite frankly that is as it should be.
But if a game allows me to log in and do my own thing, as many of these games do, then I play. It's win/win really.
For you, but these games are being hurt by the soloers. They stink up groups they deign to enter, and the games are skewed towards to the detriment of groupers.
One of the first issues brought up about a new MMO is how solo-friendly it will be.
And besides, if the "idea" of these games is that they are supposed to be worlds then I find it rather curious that players are screaming for everyone to fall in line with a very narrow (and I mean very narrow) concept of what it means to be social.
It isn't narrow at all. They are still games - you socialize by playing them with other people. You can chat on any number of services and websites.
As to your first point, not even close.
I am simply stating that in general I'm a solo player and will solo more often than not. If a developer wants to read that and come to the conclusion that they want to cater to my tastes so be it. I am not going to an already established game and saying "hey, change everything around to suit my needs". However, if an already established game has developers reading my post and realize they want to change their game to suit my needs, then that is their prerogative.
That is them responding to my needs, not me demanding that they respond to my needs. I am a consumer as well and I would like games that I want to play. So I have no problem stating my preferences and then having developers make of them what they will. I will not go to a game that touts a certain type of game play and whine and cajole in order to convince the devs that my way is best.
As far as these games being hurt by soloers that is a one side of the coin observation. It is their game. If they want their game to be a completely grouping experience they should design it as such and stick to their guns. Regardless of who comes to their forums. It's ok for parents to say "no" sometimes.
As far as the socializing, it is narrow view that is being touted. There are differnet ways of socializing. Sorry. Are you from the south in the united states? If so then you might be one of those people who stand at the bus stop engaging everyone in conversation.
Here in the north east the tendency is to be a bit more private until we are ready to open up and start chatting.
I can say that I as a soloer have probably helped more people in groups in a real way than many groupers who will grouup but if they aren't getting optimum xp or if they wipe they throw a fit.
When I group I don't care about xp and I don't care about wiping or learning the encounter in order to be successful. I group for the "sake of grouping'. I'll say it again "sake of grouping".
And yet if I'm out and someone needs help I help them. If they have a question and I can answer I answer. If they are lost or need to find something I actulaly go out of my way to find them and lead them to where they need to be.
That is called being social. There are other ways of doing it than grouping up every moment I'm in game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am simply stating that in general I'm a solo player and will solo more often than not. If a developer wants to read that and come to the conclusion that they want to cater to my tastes so be it. I am not going to an already established game and saying "hey, change everything around to suit my needs". However, if an already established game has developers reading my post and realize they want to change their game to suit my needs, then that is their prerogative.
That is them responding to my needs, not me demanding that they respond to my needs. I am a consumer as well and I would like games that I want to play. So I have no problem stating my preferences and then having developers make of them what they will. I will not go to a game that touts a certain type of game play and whine and cajole in order to convince the devs that my way is best.
As far as these games being hurt by soloers that is a one side of the coin observation. It is their game. If they want their game to be a completely grouping experience they should design it as such and stick to their guns. Regardless of who comes to their forums. It's ok for parents to say "no" sometimes.
As far as the socializing, it is narrow view that is being touted. There are differnet ways of socializing. Sorry. Are you from the south in the united states? If so then you might be one of those people who stand at the bus stop engaging everyone in conversation.
Here in the north east the tendency is to be a bit more private until we are ready to open up and start chatting.
Actually, I'm more 'north east' than you are. Perhaps being Canadian makes me friendlier and more social than you?
As for in-game - I don't generally go around looking for groups unless I want to run a dungeon. I did run BGs a lot in WoW (and scenarios in WH Online). That is socialization as it requires co-operation and communitcation to play well.
I do help out others who ask for it, and usually join in groups asking for more - IF I have time to complete the run.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Actually, I'm more 'north east' than you are. Perhaps being Canadian makes me friendlier and more social than you?
As for in-game - I don't generally go around looking for groups unless I want to run a dungeon. I did run BGs a lot in WoW (and scenarios in WH Online). That is socialization as it requires co-operation and communitcation to play well.
I do help out others who ask for it, and usually join in groups asking for more - IF I have time to complete the run.
lol, well if you know anything about the united states then you know the north east is more about being private until you are ready to be social but once social you will be there through thick and thin no matter what it takes. Just the way we are.
One of my supervisors, a gentleman from the south told me that in the south (united states) being polite is of extreme importantce even though they will then tear you a new one behind your back. In the northeast we just don't make any pretense unless we actually like you.
So then you understand the idea of helping people. You dont' feel that is part of the complex social web of a game world?
It's possible I play a lot like you. I will join groups if some one is yelling for too long in lfg. Though I did once offer to join a group and their answer was "we already have a tank". Really? so it takes a little longer to take down a mob, nothing wrong with having two tanks. And I could even switch to 2 hander and put out a decent amount of dps. But "no" they wanted to put together a boiler plate group.
Heck, once, in lotro, someone was asking in LFG for a LOOOOONG time for extra people for Tomb of Elendil. This is a very long dungeon. I eventually joined but as it turned out they never had any players who wanted to be their through the thick and thin of it. We had to start running it without a healer. Then we got one. Then the healer had to leave then we lost two members, then we got another healer for a bit but they too had to leave. We then lost another member. We then got a healer who didn't want to heal and just tell us how to run the instance. Advice is fine but healing is also fine while you are doing it.
Eventually we finished it over 4 hours later. I stayed for the entire thing and was prepared to only leave if the group leader wanted to call it quits.
I think, barring real life stuff, most soloers are like this. They group for the experience of grouping. But when I log in the first thing I do is "not look for a group". I can make my own fun and then make a decision if I want to help someone out later on.
There is this odd notion that soloers just log in, close all chat and don't speak to anyone. And maybe there are indiviudals who do this. But my experience is that we are people who don't want to sit around yelling in lfg and don't want to chat away while grinding a camp.
We want to play. And if that means we just do it our own way more often than not then we will.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And besides, if the "idea" of these games is that they are supposed to be worlds then I find it rather curious that players are screaming for everyone to fall in line with a very narrow (and I mean very narrow) concept of what it means to be social.
Bingo.
A world where you're forced to group with people during the majority of the content is unlike any world I've ever known. And I, and most people, wouldn't pay 15 bucks a month to a game that forces this upon us. We want to do what we want to do when we want to do it. Or better put, we want to be able to do things both significant and fun whether we have other people with us or not.
The ignorance of this "go play a single player game" nonsense becomes clear when you look at it from a different angle. Don't they ALSO mean that people that play single player games are socially inept? It shouldn't.
The reason, is because for most people, there IS NO ideological distinction between a 1 player game, a fighting game, and an MMO. There is only WHAT you can do with it and WHEN.
This is why Diablo wasn't just battlenet.
This is why every 2 player fighting game in existence has a 1 player mode.
Many of the most successful SPG's also have an online element. IE, you have a CHOICE.
Fighting games would certainly be less popular if you ALWAYS had to have 2 players in order to play them.
From this, MMO developers know that if there aren't interesting things that you can do in the game WITH OR WITHOUT other players, your game will likely not be as successful.
Tell me what is the major difference between soloing in a mmo and single player game ?
This question has been answered time and time again in this and other threads by myself and others. If you can't find the ambition to look for the answer, I certainly can't find the ambition to repeat it to you.
lol, well if you know anything about the united states then you know the north east is more about being private until you are ready to be social but once social you will be there through thick and thin no matter what it takes. Just the way we are.
One of my supervisors, a gentleman from the south told me that in the south (united states) being polite is of extreme importantce even though they will then tear you a new one behind your back. In the northeast we just don't make any pretense unless we actually like you.
So then you understand the idea of helping people. You dont' feel that is part of the complex social web of a game world?
Yes. It is. Frankly, from your description of your play, I wouldn't call you a soloer. More half & half.
It's possible I play a lot like you. I will join groups if some one is yelling for too long in lfg. Though I did once offer to join a group and their answer was "we already have a tank". Really? so it takes a little longer to take down a mob, nothing wrong with having two tanks. And I could even switch to 2 hander and put out a decent amount of dps. But "no" they wanted to put together a boiler plate group.
Oh, I know what you mean. That is sad and ridiculous. A group of four would rather spend hours LF a third DPS class than try with four or go with an off-spec party. They have no idea of what gaming is.
Shortly before I quit WoW, I was doing a random dungeon and halfway through we lost our healer. Now, the usual practice in that situation is to quit the run if we can't get a quick replacement. However, we had a good run going, and we were allgamers, so we decided to do as much as we could until we were stalled, or got that replacement. We would plan and co-ordinate each pull, and did well. We actually beat a boss and had a couple of tries at the next guy until we finally got our new healer. That was one of the few random dungeon runs I ever enjoyed.
Heck, once, in lotro, someone was asking in LFG for a LOOOOONG time for extra people for Tomb of Elendil. This is a very long dungeon. I eventually joined but as it turned out they never had any players who wanted to be their through the thick and thin of it. We had to start running it without a healer. Then we got one. Then the healer had to leave then we lost two members, then we got another healer for a bit but they too had to leave. We then lost another member. We then got a healer who didn't want to heal and just tell us how to run the instance. Advice is fine but healing is also fine while you are doing it.
Eventually we finished it over 4 hours later. I stayed for the entire thing and was prepared to only leave if the group leader wanted to call it quits.
I think, barring real life stuff, most soloers are like this. They group for the experience of grouping.
No. I think you are way off-base. Soloers group to get the carrot, not to enjoy playing with others.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have a very low post count as I normally leave these sorts of discussions alone.
Many people confuse casual with soloer and hardcore with Raiders.
There are both casual and hardcore soloer players and there are both hardcore and casual raiders. If you do not agree, talk to a few long time guild or raid leaders, you may end up agreeing with me or at least understanding why I believe this.
Personally I play games to enjoy the gameplay. "The reward of a thing well done is to have done it." (RW Emerson)
The whole heated argument about other players playstyles or in fact the arguments about them getting something easily that you "had to work for" amuses me greatly. I play games, if I choose to play for several hours in a large group to complete some complex task, I do so for fun or personal challenge. If someone else chooses to play alone and they find the same uber sword of greatness that I won in my play session, Good on them, great game design IMHO.
The single clear fact that I derive from many of these threads is as follows;
It is a very large world , full of many different personalities, some of whom I have zero interest in ever meeting. I am happy for them to enjoy their lives and their chosen gameplay. I will go do the same.
lol, well if you know anything about the united states then you know the north east is more about being private until you are ready to be social but once social you will be there through thick and thin no matter what it takes. Just the way we are.
One of my supervisors, a gentleman from the south told me that in the south (united states) being polite is of extreme importantce even though they will then tear you a new one behind your back. In the northeast we just don't make any pretense unless we actually like you.
So then you understand the idea of helping people. You dont' feel that is part of the complex social web of a game world?
Yes. It is. Frankly, from your description of your play, I wouldn't call you a soloer. More half & half.
It's possible I play a lot like you. I will join groups if some one is yelling for too long in lfg. Though I did once offer to join a group and their answer was "we already have a tank". Really? so it takes a little longer to take down a mob, nothing wrong with having two tanks. And I could even switch to 2 hander and put out a decent amount of dps. But "no" they wanted to put together a boiler plate group.
Oh, I know what you mean. That is sad and ridiculous. A group of four would rather spend hours LF a third DPS class than try with four or go with an off-spec party. They have no idea of what gaming is.
Shortly before I quit WoW, I was doing a random dungeon and halfway through we lost our healer. Now, the usual practice in that situation is to quit the run if we can't get a quick replacement. However, we had a good run going, and we were allgamers, so we decided to do as much as we could until we were stalled, or got that replacement. We would plan and co-ordinate each pull, and did well. We actually beat a boss and had a couple of tries at the next guy until we finally got our new healer. That was one of the few random dungeon runs I ever enjoyed.
Heck, once, in lotro, someone was asking in LFG for a LOOOOONG time for extra people for Tomb of Elendil. This is a very long dungeon. I eventually joined but as it turned out they never had any players who wanted to be their through the thick and thin of it. We had to start running it without a healer. Then we got one. Then the healer had to leave then we lost two members, then we got another healer for a bit but they too had to leave. We then lost another member. We then got a healer who didn't want to heal and just tell us how to run the instance. Advice is fine but healing is also fine while you are doing it.
Eventually we finished it over 4 hours later. I stayed for the entire thing and was prepared to only leave if the group leader wanted to call it quits.
I think, barring real life stuff, most soloers are like this. They group for the experience of grouping.
No. I think you are way off-base. Soloers group to get the carrot, not to enjoy playing with others.
Well I'm a sooler and I don't solo to get the carrot. I solo so I can read the quest text, go my own pace and experience the content in a meaningful way. My game friends who solo don't solo to get the carrot. Quite frankly I don't know of many solo players who are getting many carrots. Last I saw most games seem to relegate higher end gear to group activities Even LOTRO does this.
And yet constantly read about players who group who complain about incentives to group for xp and loot. So are they grouping for carrots?
As I've already said, when I group I dont' care about xp. Don't care about loot and I do it for the social aspect.
I think players want to think that solo equals "me me me" because it makes their argumet easier. But I really don't see that as being the case in most cases. I have been in groups where the members of the group have rolled on items they shouldn't be. I've also been in groups where an item dropped and a member grabbed it and ran.
Or I could go one step further. People are far more complicated than that and regardless of solo/group they play for their own reasons. All I know is that solo players don't really care about players who want to group, they dont' fret over it, but some group players seem to be very concerned with players who want to solo.
But then again this argument has been done time and time and time again. It's really up to the developers to find a solution. Which is actually very easy. As I've said time and time again, lineage 2 had grouping content and solo content and it worked rather well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Or I could go one step further. People are far more complicated than that and regardless of solo/group they play for their own reasons. All I know is that solo players don't really care about players who want to group, they dont' fret over it, but some group players seem to be very concerned with players who want to solo.
But then again this argument has been done time and time and time again. It's really up to the developers to find a solution. Which is actually very easy. As I've said time and time again, lineage 2 had grouping content and solo content and it worked rather well.
I think the answer is to not think of single player, multiplayer, or MMO at all. The answer is, to create your game with content for any persons situation at any time. Create a game in which a person can play for 5 hours or 5 minutes and get something done. Where you might end up in a 12 person raid, then do some crafting while watching TV.
IMO this is why Eve keeps going up and up. You can bop around casually in hi-sec space buying and selling and delivering on the market while watching the Simpsons, or just stay docked and mess with different ship configs. Minutes later, you can pull out the chamberpot, jet out to 0-sec with a half dozen of your buddies and look for trouble.
Being able to have your cake and eat it too... ie have casual elements, hardcore elements and transition between them quickly, IMO that's an important key to having a successful game. Because it keeps them logging in no matter what their current RL situation is, to do whatever that situation allows at that time.
Catering to just one or the other is outdated and unnecessary. This , IMO, is why STO and Darkfall, representing those polar elements, aren't doing very well.
Best system is the one COH had or still has. There the mission is made according to how many players are there in the group. The more players, the more bad guys and the harder it is. But you can also solo it just as good. All games should have this system.
Best system is the one COH had or still has. There the mission is made according to how many players are there in the group. The more players, the more bad guys and the harder it is. But you can also solo it just as good. All games should have this system.
It sounds like a good system to me.
How prone is it to exploitation is it, though?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
I think that there should be solo play and group play in a game like WOW did. WOW is the best way to describe what a game should do. You dont want to much group quests though just in case most people didn't play it and only a few did. Then again that could also make people who love to group a bit angry. So having both in a game would be a good thing and not one more then the other. Having group play though is what MMO's are made for. To let people play more with others. Thats what makes MMO's unique.
Time to kick some MMO!
IMO I dont mind a moderate amount of solo play, but I enjoy MMOs that encourage team-play better tho xD
The quote above is paraphrasing a number of posts dismissing solo play options without laboriously quoting each poster.
I don't understand why this belief system of all or nothing is so religiously adhered to by the grouping proponents. You people just don't seem to understand why forced grouping for character development is a negative gameplay element. Without fail, proponents of the group orientation look down their noses at those who wish for viable solo play elements, labeling them as social misfits who are incapable of forming some sort of basic friendship ties in virtual space. Come on now, surely you recognize the absurdity of such a position? I suppose you'll go looking for true love on Facebook or Myspace while you're at it?
The playerbase that wishes for a viable solo path within a MMO are simply uinterested in being forced to endure high school level social drama, why is that so difficult to understand? The advocacy of group only viable playstyle is very much like insisting that you must join the Chess Club, or the Basketball Team, or the Yearbook Staff, ect, with all the associated conformity of its group members in outlook, beliefs, and behavior. Or similiar to demanding that someone who moves to an area abandon all their own sense of individual interests and become rabid followers of the local sports team or else not move there. See how absurd that sounds?
So far WoW has done it the best, especially with the implimentation of the Dungeon Finder. While it is far from perfect, and the emphasis on gear as a progression path is simplistic (and IMO detrimental long term), the fact that WoW understands and supports solo playstyles as much as it does, is one significant reason why it is dominating the MMO market. Any other MMO who wishes to thrive will do the same if they wish to have more than a niche following.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Word brother!
I especially love the comment regarding "being forced to endure high school level of social drama".
Not grouping in a game makes me socially inept? How about that I am "out" socialing five nights of the seven day week. If anything, most working adults can't come close to the level of socializing that I do per week. That is not a boast but a simple fact. Most adults I know work very hard, come home and just want to relax. Maybe with family. I and others like me are going to concerts, plays, Art openings, dinner parties, hanging with friends in person.
So being forced to socialize with players not of my choosing so I can hear about the most petty things or have distasteful personalities forced down my throat really can't constitute socializing in my book.
That quote can't be serious. Must be ironic.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If you want to relax without socializing (and that's perfectly reasonable) - then don't play a multiplayer game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Tell me what is the major difference between soloing in a mmo and single player game ?
Solo players want to be on the team, but not play with the team. Just stand off to the side and shoot freethrows. Well, that's not playing basketball, and it's sure as hell not being on a team.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I come at it from a different perspective.
If the game allows me to play it on my own terms then I will play it. You will never, and I mean NEVER find me rushign to some forum screaming "I want x I want y why can't I z".
If the game doesn't support my playstyle i just log out and cancel because obviously the game is not for me. I think that's pretty fair no? I mean, it essentialy acknowledges that not all games are for me and quite frankly that is as it should be.
But if a game allows me to log in and do my own thing, as many of these games do, then I play. It's win/win really.
And besides, if the "idea" of these games is that they are supposed to be worlds then I find it rather curious that players are screaming for everyone to fall in line with a very narrow (and I mean very narrow) concept of what it means to be social.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No they don't.
They want to play basket ball when they want to play basket ball and then they want to go off to the other part of the gym and lift weights while the others continue to play basket ball.
edit: maybe even watch a bit of the game between sets.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It isn't narrow at all. They are still games - you socialize by playing them with other people. You can chat on any number of services and websites.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
As to your first point, not even close.
I am simply stating that in general I'm a solo player and will solo more often than not. If a developer wants to read that and come to the conclusion that they want to cater to my tastes so be it. I am not going to an already established game and saying "hey, change everything around to suit my needs". However, if an already established game has developers reading my post and realize they want to change their game to suit my needs, then that is their prerogative.
That is them responding to my needs, not me demanding that they respond to my needs. I am a consumer as well and I would like games that I want to play. So I have no problem stating my preferences and then having developers make of them what they will. I will not go to a game that touts a certain type of game play and whine and cajole in order to convince the devs that my way is best.
As far as these games being hurt by soloers that is a one side of the coin observation. It is their game. If they want their game to be a completely grouping experience they should design it as such and stick to their guns. Regardless of who comes to their forums. It's ok for parents to say "no" sometimes.
As far as the socializing, it is narrow view that is being touted. There are differnet ways of socializing. Sorry. Are you from the south in the united states? If so then you might be one of those people who stand at the bus stop engaging everyone in conversation.
Here in the north east the tendency is to be a bit more private until we are ready to open up and start chatting.
I can say that I as a soloer have probably helped more people in groups in a real way than many groupers who will grouup but if they aren't getting optimum xp or if they wipe they throw a fit.
When I group I don't care about xp and I don't care about wiping or learning the encounter in order to be successful. I group for the "sake of grouping'. I'll say it again "sake of grouping".
And yet if I'm out and someone needs help I help them. If they have a question and I can answer I answer. If they are lost or need to find something I actulaly go out of my way to find them and lead them to where they need to be.
That is called being social. There are other ways of doing it than grouping up every moment I'm in game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Actually, I'm more 'north east' than you are. Perhaps being Canadian makes me friendlier and more social than you?
As for in-game - I don't generally go around looking for groups unless I want to run a dungeon. I did run BGs a lot in WoW (and scenarios in WH Online). That is socialization as it requires co-operation and communitcation to play well.
I do help out others who ask for it, and usually join in groups asking for more - IF I have time to complete the run.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
lol, well if you know anything about the united states then you know the north east is more about being private until you are ready to be social but once social you will be there through thick and thin no matter what it takes. Just the way we are.
One of my supervisors, a gentleman from the south told me that in the south (united states) being polite is of extreme importantce even though they will then tear you a new one behind your back. In the northeast we just don't make any pretense unless we actually like you.
So then you understand the idea of helping people. You dont' feel that is part of the complex social web of a game world?
It's possible I play a lot like you. I will join groups if some one is yelling for too long in lfg. Though I did once offer to join a group and their answer was "we already have a tank". Really? so it takes a little longer to take down a mob, nothing wrong with having two tanks. And I could even switch to 2 hander and put out a decent amount of dps. But "no" they wanted to put together a boiler plate group.
Heck, once, in lotro, someone was asking in LFG for a LOOOOONG time for extra people for Tomb of Elendil. This is a very long dungeon. I eventually joined but as it turned out they never had any players who wanted to be their through the thick and thin of it. We had to start running it without a healer. Then we got one. Then the healer had to leave then we lost two members, then we got another healer for a bit but they too had to leave. We then lost another member. We then got a healer who didn't want to heal and just tell us how to run the instance. Advice is fine but healing is also fine while you are doing it.
Eventually we finished it over 4 hours later. I stayed for the entire thing and was prepared to only leave if the group leader wanted to call it quits.
I think, barring real life stuff, most soloers are like this. They group for the experience of grouping. But when I log in the first thing I do is "not look for a group". I can make my own fun and then make a decision if I want to help someone out later on.
There is this odd notion that soloers just log in, close all chat and don't speak to anyone. And maybe there are indiviudals who do this. But my experience is that we are people who don't want to sit around yelling in lfg and don't want to chat away while grinding a camp.
We want to play. And if that means we just do it our own way more often than not then we will.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Bingo.
A world where you're forced to group with people during the majority of the content is unlike any world I've ever known. And I, and most people, wouldn't pay 15 bucks a month to a game that forces this upon us. We want to do what we want to do when we want to do it. Or better put, we want to be able to do things both significant and fun whether we have other people with us or not.
The ignorance of this "go play a single player game" nonsense becomes clear when you look at it from a different angle. Don't they ALSO mean that people that play single player games are socially inept? It shouldn't.
The reason, is because for most people, there IS NO ideological distinction between a 1 player game, a fighting game, and an MMO. There is only WHAT you can do with it and WHEN.
This is why Diablo wasn't just battlenet.
This is why every 2 player fighting game in existence has a 1 player mode.
Many of the most successful SPG's also have an online element. IE, you have a CHOICE.
Fighting games would certainly be less popular if you ALWAYS had to have 2 players in order to play them.
From this, MMO developers know that if there aren't interesting things that you can do in the game WITH OR WITHOUT other players, your game will likely not be as successful.
This question has been answered time and time again in this and other threads by myself and others. If you can't find the ambition to look for the answer, I certainly can't find the ambition to repeat it to you.
No. I think you are way off-base. Soloers group to get the carrot, not to enjoy playing with others.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have a very low post count as I normally leave these sorts of discussions alone.
Many people confuse casual with soloer and hardcore with Raiders.
There are both casual and hardcore soloer players and there are both hardcore and casual raiders. If you do not agree, talk to a few long time guild or raid leaders, you may end up agreeing with me or at least understanding why I believe this.
Personally I play games to enjoy the gameplay. "The reward of a thing well done is to have done it." (RW Emerson)
The whole heated argument about other players playstyles or in fact the arguments about them getting something easily that you "had to work for" amuses me greatly. I play games, if I choose to play for several hours in a large group to complete some complex task, I do so for fun or personal challenge. If someone else chooses to play alone and they find the same uber sword of greatness that I won in my play session, Good on them, great game design IMHO.
The single clear fact that I derive from many of these threads is as follows;
It is a very large world , full of many different personalities, some of whom I have zero interest in ever meeting. I am happy for them to enjoy their lives and their chosen gameplay. I will go do the same.
Well I'm a sooler and I don't solo to get the carrot. I solo so I can read the quest text, go my own pace and experience the content in a meaningful way. My game friends who solo don't solo to get the carrot. Quite frankly I don't know of many solo players who are getting many carrots. Last I saw most games seem to relegate higher end gear to group activities Even LOTRO does this.
And yet constantly read about players who group who complain about incentives to group for xp and loot. So are they grouping for carrots?
As I've already said, when I group I dont' care about xp. Don't care about loot and I do it for the social aspect.
I think players want to think that solo equals "me me me" because it makes their argumet easier. But I really don't see that as being the case in most cases. I have been in groups where the members of the group have rolled on items they shouldn't be. I've also been in groups where an item dropped and a member grabbed it and ran.
Or I could go one step further. People are far more complicated than that and regardless of solo/group they play for their own reasons. All I know is that solo players don't really care about players who want to group, they dont' fret over it, but some group players seem to be very concerned with players who want to solo.
But then again this argument has been done time and time and time again. It's really up to the developers to find a solution. Which is actually very easy. As I've said time and time again, lineage 2 had grouping content and solo content and it worked rather well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think the answer is to not think of single player, multiplayer, or MMO at all. The answer is, to create your game with content for any persons situation at any time. Create a game in which a person can play for 5 hours or 5 minutes and get something done. Where you might end up in a 12 person raid, then do some crafting while watching TV.
IMO this is why Eve keeps going up and up. You can bop around casually in hi-sec space buying and selling and delivering on the market while watching the Simpsons, or just stay docked and mess with different ship configs. Minutes later, you can pull out the chamberpot, jet out to 0-sec with a half dozen of your buddies and look for trouble.
Being able to have your cake and eat it too... ie have casual elements, hardcore elements and transition between them quickly, IMO that's an important key to having a successful game. Because it keeps them logging in no matter what their current RL situation is, to do whatever that situation allows at that time.
Catering to just one or the other is outdated and unnecessary. This , IMO, is why STO and Darkfall, representing those polar elements, aren't doing very well.
Best system is the one COH had or still has. There the mission is made according to how many players are there in the group. The more players, the more bad guys and the harder it is. But you can also solo it just as good. All games should have this system.
It sounds like a good system to me.
How prone is it to exploitation is it, though?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
But if you knew why he has this opinion, you could argue against his reasons. Now we cant have that, can we ?
SCNR.
Begging for solo play in a genre that has multiplayer in it's name is on par with kissing your sister.
That said.
I'd like to see MMORPGs add something to group play other than 3 story tall walking piles of hitpoints.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Err, who wouldnt kiss their sister ?
As long as its on the cheek and not something erotic.
Im sorry, but am i really seeing a lot of people talking about "forced grouping" and defending features like "solo-friendly"?
Am i in the correct forum?
Isnt this a website about MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Or are we paying 15$ a month so dev's can hold up a server for us to, you know... solo.
Dragon age may be MMO actually, it does even have a LOGIN SCREEN, that makes it an MMO doesnt it?
You solo all your way, kill a few dragons, there you go, it even has voices! Dude, that is awesome.
"omg, 5 hours waiting for a group" , come on, grow up, what have you been playing? wow?
Typical login at CoH:
00:30 - Suscefull Login
00:31 - Joined LFG system
00:31:32 - Me and 7 guys (you know, "the other players") crushing random baddies.
should happen to all MMO's, not only CoH, FFXI or WAR.